So... will it rain on he plains of Spain?

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So... will it rain on he plains of Spain?

Postby Jakob » Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:17 pm

I mean will it be war?

The idiots from Madrid....
Catalunya came up with ninety percent of the votes (cast despite of and because of totalitarian threats from the stinking hole of rot that calls itself Spains capital) being cast for independence...
you have to be really stunted to respond to this like the "king" of that dead-and-gone nation did.

Will it be war? Will Madrid be as stunted as to send in the tanks?
I never wanted to know about their dirty fascist history too much. I know my Spanish friends family fought against Franco, and I know it was brutal and ugly. But I didn't know it was the same situation as now: Castile vs Catalunya.

90%. Has that even occurred before in an election?
I can't imagine any way for the "king" (who tends to use his royal powers to hurl insults at leaders of states he considers to be his property) to prevent Catalunya from seceding.

One vaguely imaginable outcome would be for Spain to be kicked out of the EU for being a military dictatorship, and Catalunya entering as a sovereign state. Its really hard to predict anything at all in Europe though - the future remains opaque.
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Re: So... will it rain on he plains of Spain?

Postby MagsJ » Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:01 pm

Enough of these Western wars! move on.. 2017 and all that.
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Re: So... will it rain on he plains of Spain?

Postby omar » Sat Oct 21, 2017 2:39 pm

Hello Jakob

Catalunya came up with ninety percent of the votes (cast despite of and because of totalitarian threats from the stinking hole of rot that calls itself Spains capital) being cast for independence...


Only 40% or so turn-out. Now, you might say that with the threat of violence that's not surprising but on the flip side, those that showed up in spite of those threats probably had the belief that they could change the status quo and so that 90%, among those that voted, is not surprising.



Will it be war? Will Madrid be as stunted as to send in the tanks?
I never wanted to know about their dirty fascist history too much. I know my Spanish friends family fought against Franco, and I know it was brutal and ugly. But I didn't know it was the same situation as now: Castile vs Catalunya.


No. Franco was possible under the threat of communism. Dictators like Franco, Mussolini, Trujillo, Batista....to name a few, developed under the perspective of an alternative that was considered worse. That said, I don't think it will end in war. Catalunya has no real allies that could take on the military might of Madrid, backed by EU. Market forces are such that banks and companies are considering moving of of the area. That in itself might make war unaffordable. Even in the best of scenarios, independence from Spain might be a problem that is worst than Brexit when dealing with the EU.

By the way, I am not saying that I agree with Madrid, but I believe that independence is not without its own challenges even in the best case scenarios.

One vaguely imaginable outcome would be for Spain to be kicked out of the EU for being a military dictatorship, and Catalunya entering as a sovereign state. Its really hard to predict anything at all in Europe though - the future remains opaque.


Actually the EU cannot afford a secession. Spain was in financial trouble before all of this. taking Barcelona out of the Spanish economy will further weaken it, and as a member state, require further assistance. If they're kicked out, then that leads to a straight path into a military effort to regain Barcelona, which is bad for the EU. Besides that, how the EU handles Spain is important because Spain is not alone in containing semi-autonomous regions within. If Barcelona is given help then that might encourage the Northern League for example which would like to gut Italy.

It is still undetermined to what extent the leader of Catalunya wish to take the "popular" mandate of the vote. Is it outright secession or an opening salvo to get a better deal on the terms of their continued autonomy?
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Re: So... will it rain on he plains of Spain?

Postby Jakob » Sat Oct 21, 2017 2:49 pm

omar wrote:Hello Jakob

Catalunya came up with ninety percent of the votes (cast despite of and because of totalitarian threats from the stinking hole of rot that calls itself Spains capital) being cast for independence...


Only 40% or so turn-out. Now, you might say that with the threat of violence that's not surprising but on the flip side, those that showed up in spite of those threats probably had the belief that they could change the status quo and so that 90%, among those that voted, is not surprising.

Yes. The fascist government in Madrid tyrannized the people to stay home in their typical Franco-dirty-brownshirt fashion.
If the vote had been allowed like in a sane state, Id say it would have been more like 95 percent. But using police to beat up old ladies does work to scare people.

Will it be war? Will Madrid be as stunted as to send in the tanks?
I never wanted to know about their dirty fascist history too much. I know my Spanish friends family fought against Franco, and I know it was brutal and ugly. But I didn't know it was the same situation as now: Castile vs Catalunya.


No. Franco was possible under the threat of communism. Dictators like Franco, Mussolini, Trujillo, Batista....to name a few, developed under the perspective of an alternative that was considered worse. That said, I don't think it will end in war. Catalunya has no real allies that could take on the military might of Madrid, backed by EU. Market forces are such that banks and companies are considering moving of of the area. That in itself might make war unaffordable. Even in the best of scenarios, independence from Spain might be a problem that is worst than Brexit when dealing with the EU.

No no no, that is just an excuse that is always used for Hitler as well. He was just fighting communists.
And who is to day European communism would have been worse than nazism of Franco-ism, anyway? Seems presumptuous.

The facts are that the Spanish had a fascist government and that this is in line with centuries of vicious, cruel, blunt, stupid, barbaric and contemptible Spanish tyranny.
What has that country ever produced, except some good painters?
It should be broken up into regions and subjected by Germany and France.

By the way, I am not saying that I agree with Madrid, but I believe that independence is not without its own challenges even in the best case scenarios.

I don't much care either way, but I just think Madrid demonstrated its utter barbarism, and made it very clear why Catalunya is deeply embarrassed to fall under the Spanish crown, which is among the most childish perverse pretences to authority there ever were.

One vaguely imaginable outcome would be for Spain to be kicked out of the EU for being a military dictatorship, and Catalunya entering as a sovereign state. Its really hard to predict anything at all in Europe though - the future remains opaque.


Actually the EU cannot afford a secession. Spain was in financial trouble before all of this. taking Barcelona out of the Spanish economy will further weaken it, and as a member state, require further assistance. If they're kicked out, then that leads to a straight path into a military effort to regain Barcelona, which is bad for the EU. Besides that, how the EU handles Spain is important because Spain is not alone in containing semi-autonomous regions within. If Barcelona is given help then that might encourage the Northern League for example which would like to gut Italy.

I get the idea in the long run may be to have Spain, that utterly useless wasteland, fall away and welcome Catalunya, which is actually a region where people know what they are doing.

Spaniards are on average really clueless.

It is still undetermined to what extent the leader of Catalunya wish to take the "popular" mandate of the vote. Is it outright secession or an opening salvo to get a better deal on the terms of their continued autonomy?

I think even he was surprised by the medieval arrogance of the despot in Madrid. Im sure he is still modifying his strategy to fit to a dark age approach, which will be more suitable the coming time, I fear.
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Re: So... will it rain on he plains of Spain?

Postby omar » Sat Oct 21, 2017 5:56 pm

Hello Jakob

Yes. The fascist government in Madrid tyrannized the people to stay home in their typical Franco-dirty-brownshirt fashion.
If the vote had been allowed like in a sane state, Id say it would have been more like 95 percent. But using police to beat up old ladies does work to scare people.


Either that or people that were in support of remaining a part of Spain did not see the wisdom in going out to vote in an election that was already declared unconstitutional by their government. All of this is just speculation though.

No no no, that is just an excuse that is always used for Hitler as well. He was just fighting communists.
And who is to day European communism would have been worse than nazism of Franco-ism, anyway? Seems presumptuous.


I don't know. Communism, however, has enough examples of brutality that dwarfs Franco's brown shirts. Doesn't seem that either faction would have been good for the country in my opinion.

The facts are that the Spanish had a fascist government and that this is in line with centuries of vicious, cruel, blunt, stupid, barbaric and contemptible Spanish tyranny.
What has that country ever produced, except some good painters?
It should be broken up into regions and subjected by Germany and France.


Centuries? You know that at one point they were a super-power. Their empire one of the biggest. Spanish viciousness, cruelty, tyranny and barbarism were not a problem for spaniards but for the Incas, Mayans that were enslaved or killed by the Spanish Crown. And this is part of the problem today. We live in a moment in history that is relatively quiet and peaceful. As humans, we possess the ability to love everyone, so long as there are enough left for us to hate. The sense of identity grows or dwindles in the face of an Other. At this time in history most countries lack an outside Other and so Others are being identified within the "We", the "Us".
States like Italy, Spain, Germany...maybe any state?...share the common history of fraction, of a whole made of parts that at one point were quite independent. So lets not dream about these states as if they were just turning violent--they were created and rest upon the threat of violence. We like to think that it is common interests, but that is only true as long as the different parties agree on what is common. It also relies on men with no chests, reasonable men who can see common calculations that all can clearly see. Not sure we have them.

I don't much care either way, but I just think Madrid demonstrated its utter barbarism, and made it very clear why Catalunya is deeply embarrassed to fall under the Spanish crown, which is among the most childish perverse pretences to authority there ever were.


Their hand was forced by Catalunya. I think that things went the way that they wanted. They knew that their vote was dead on arrival, declared unconstitutional. Had 80% showed up, in spite of all the threats, Madrid and the EU would be more willing to engage in talks. But in the end no rational government can let their golden goose slip from their fingers without resistance. What would you do? Put yourself in Madrid's position-- what would you do?

I get the idea in the long run may be to have Spain, that utterly useless wasteland, fall away and welcome Catalunya, which is actually a region where people know what they are doing.


That assumes an unrealistic situation of isolation. Already we see that the financial sector is reacting negatively to the confrontation between Barcelona and Madrid, so, in a future within a global economy, it is possible that the incertitude could cost Barcelona economically (although they would probably end up better than the situation they're currently in as the golden goose of Madrid).

Spaniards are on average really clueless.


Jeez. You really don't like these folks...

I think even he was surprised by the medieval arrogance of the despot in Madrid. Im sure he is still modifying his strategy to fit to a dark age approach, which will be more suitable the coming time, I fear.


WHY WAS HE SURPRISED?!!!!!! The referendum was declared unconstitutional AHEAD of the vote--where was the ambiguity? I think that the vote was a power play, just as May wanted to do in GB, which backfired, to hold negotiations under a "mandate" by the "People". But again, Madrid is acting the way you would expect it to act. I see no other course for Madrid, which actually is a strategic weakness for Barcelona's bid, whatever it was, by putting all their eggs in one baskets and leaving no save-face third option for either side. It is not that Madrid is bloodthirsty, brutal, blah, blah, blah-- it is doing what you would expect it to do. I understand the reasons for Barcelona, but I disagree with their timing. Under their current financial straits, Madrid is not in a position to entertain losing Catalunya. At a different time, more prosperous, such bid might have been received differently.
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Re: So... will it rain on he plains of Spain?

Postby Jakob » Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:27 pm

Hey Omar,
Oh yeah, the inquisition was painful for as many Spaniards as well. And Franco, mild in your eyes, was not so mild in the eyes of those that fought him.

Their hand was forced by Catalunya. I think that things went the way that they wanted. They knew that their vote was dead on arrival, declared unconstitutional. Had 80% showed up, in spite of all the threats, Madrid and the EU would be more willing to engage in talks. But in the end no rational government can let their golden goose slip from their fingers without resistance. What would you do? Put yourself in Madrid's position-- what would you do?

WHY WAS HE SURPRISED?!!!!!! The referendum was declared unconstitutional AHEAD of the vote--where was the ambiguity

The answer here are related.
I would simply have found a way to not make it absolutely clear to every one in Catalunya that the stat they are supposedly part of has absolutely zero respect for them whatsoever.
The very worst thing he could have done.

I don't mind either way, its just an observation of truly medieval politics by a crown that has never represented anything besides murderous thugs, and you're seeing the reactions occur, predictably.

Seriously Spain is totally barren, culturally speaking. Andalucia has some Arab virtues, the Basques have some Keltic virtues, but its not a country of substance. Culturally and just the persons you'll meet, Catalunya is by far the most generous of spirit. Madrilenes live in a bubble. They think having killed the most people of every murderous gang ever lived gives them some cultural status. No. Just, not.
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Re: So... will it rain on he plains of Spain?

Postby Jakob » Sun Oct 22, 2017 2:36 pm

Here is a list of Spains most impressive contributions to the world as seen through the eyes of expats.

Pedro Almodóvar
The Spanish language
Zara
Pablo Picasso
Don Quixote
The Alliance of Civilizations
Sherry

Note, the Alliance of Civilizations is an initiative it made I 2004, right after it had joined Bush in 2003 in invading Iraq...
I think it is the most pathetic country in the world. The total debility of Spain is known in European bars, as Spanish tourists are actually retarded.
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