So... will it rain on he plains of Spain?

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So... will it rain on he plains of Spain?

Postby Jakob » Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:17 pm

I mean will it be war?

The idiots from Madrid....
Catalunya came up with ninety percent of the votes (cast despite of and because of totalitarian threats from the stinking hole of rot that calls itself Spains capital) being cast for independence...
you have to be really stunted to respond to this like the "king" of that dead-and-gone nation did.

Will it be war? Will Madrid be as stunted as to send in the tanks?
I never wanted to know about their dirty fascist history too much. I know my Spanish friends family fought against Franco, and I know it was brutal and ugly. But I didn't know it was the same situation as now: Castile vs Catalunya.

90%. Has that even occurred before in an election?
I can't imagine any way for the "king" (who tends to use his royal powers to hurl insults at leaders of states he considers to be his property) to prevent Catalunya from seceding.

One vaguely imaginable outcome would be for Spain to be kicked out of the EU for being a military dictatorship, and Catalunya entering as a sovereign state. Its really hard to predict anything at all in Europe though - the future remains opaque.
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Re: So... will it rain on he plains of Spain?

Postby MagsJ » Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:01 pm

Enough of these Western wars! move on.. 2017 and all that.
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Re: So... will it rain on he plains of Spain?

Postby omar » Sat Oct 21, 2017 2:39 pm

Hello Jakob

Catalunya came up with ninety percent of the votes (cast despite of and because of totalitarian threats from the stinking hole of rot that calls itself Spains capital) being cast for independence...


Only 40% or so turn-out. Now, you might say that with the threat of violence that's not surprising but on the flip side, those that showed up in spite of those threats probably had the belief that they could change the status quo and so that 90%, among those that voted, is not surprising.



Will it be war? Will Madrid be as stunted as to send in the tanks?
I never wanted to know about their dirty fascist history too much. I know my Spanish friends family fought against Franco, and I know it was brutal and ugly. But I didn't know it was the same situation as now: Castile vs Catalunya.


No. Franco was possible under the threat of communism. Dictators like Franco, Mussolini, Trujillo, Batista....to name a few, developed under the perspective of an alternative that was considered worse. That said, I don't think it will end in war. Catalunya has no real allies that could take on the military might of Madrid, backed by EU. Market forces are such that banks and companies are considering moving of of the area. That in itself might make war unaffordable. Even in the best of scenarios, independence from Spain might be a problem that is worst than Brexit when dealing with the EU.

By the way, I am not saying that I agree with Madrid, but I believe that independence is not without its own challenges even in the best case scenarios.

One vaguely imaginable outcome would be for Spain to be kicked out of the EU for being a military dictatorship, and Catalunya entering as a sovereign state. Its really hard to predict anything at all in Europe though - the future remains opaque.


Actually the EU cannot afford a secession. Spain was in financial trouble before all of this. taking Barcelona out of the Spanish economy will further weaken it, and as a member state, require further assistance. If they're kicked out, then that leads to a straight path into a military effort to regain Barcelona, which is bad for the EU. Besides that, how the EU handles Spain is important because Spain is not alone in containing semi-autonomous regions within. If Barcelona is given help then that might encourage the Northern League for example which would like to gut Italy.

It is still undetermined to what extent the leader of Catalunya wish to take the "popular" mandate of the vote. Is it outright secession or an opening salvo to get a better deal on the terms of their continued autonomy?
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Re: So... will it rain on he plains of Spain?

Postby Jakob » Sat Oct 21, 2017 2:49 pm

omar wrote:Hello Jakob

Catalunya came up with ninety percent of the votes (cast despite of and because of totalitarian threats from the stinking hole of rot that calls itself Spains capital) being cast for independence...


Only 40% or so turn-out. Now, you might say that with the threat of violence that's not surprising but on the flip side, those that showed up in spite of those threats probably had the belief that they could change the status quo and so that 90%, among those that voted, is not surprising.

Yes. The fascist government in Madrid tyrannized the people to stay home in their typical Franco-dirty-brownshirt fashion.
If the vote had been allowed like in a sane state, Id say it would have been more like 95 percent. But using police to beat up old ladies does work to scare people.

Will it be war? Will Madrid be as stunted as to send in the tanks?
I never wanted to know about their dirty fascist history too much. I know my Spanish friends family fought against Franco, and I know it was brutal and ugly. But I didn't know it was the same situation as now: Castile vs Catalunya.


No. Franco was possible under the threat of communism. Dictators like Franco, Mussolini, Trujillo, Batista....to name a few, developed under the perspective of an alternative that was considered worse. That said, I don't think it will end in war. Catalunya has no real allies that could take on the military might of Madrid, backed by EU. Market forces are such that banks and companies are considering moving of of the area. That in itself might make war unaffordable. Even in the best of scenarios, independence from Spain might be a problem that is worst than Brexit when dealing with the EU.

No no no, that is just an excuse that is always used for Hitler as well. He was just fighting communists.
And who is to day European communism would have been worse than nazism of Franco-ism, anyway? Seems presumptuous.

The facts are that the Spanish had a fascist government and that this is in line with centuries of vicious, cruel, blunt, stupid, barbaric and contemptible Spanish tyranny.
What has that country ever produced, except some good painters?
It should be broken up into regions and subjected by Germany and France.

By the way, I am not saying that I agree with Madrid, but I believe that independence is not without its own challenges even in the best case scenarios.

I don't much care either way, but I just think Madrid demonstrated its utter barbarism, and made it very clear why Catalunya is deeply embarrassed to fall under the Spanish crown, which is among the most childish perverse pretences to authority there ever were.

One vaguely imaginable outcome would be for Spain to be kicked out of the EU for being a military dictatorship, and Catalunya entering as a sovereign state. Its really hard to predict anything at all in Europe though - the future remains opaque.


Actually the EU cannot afford a secession. Spain was in financial trouble before all of this. taking Barcelona out of the Spanish economy will further weaken it, and as a member state, require further assistance. If they're kicked out, then that leads to a straight path into a military effort to regain Barcelona, which is bad for the EU. Besides that, how the EU handles Spain is important because Spain is not alone in containing semi-autonomous regions within. If Barcelona is given help then that might encourage the Northern League for example which would like to gut Italy.

I get the idea in the long run may be to have Spain, that utterly useless wasteland, fall away and welcome Catalunya, which is actually a region where people know what they are doing.

Spaniards are on average really clueless.

It is still undetermined to what extent the leader of Catalunya wish to take the "popular" mandate of the vote. Is it outright secession or an opening salvo to get a better deal on the terms of their continued autonomy?

I think even he was surprised by the medieval arrogance of the despot in Madrid. Im sure he is still modifying his strategy to fit to a dark age approach, which will be more suitable the coming time, I fear.
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Re: So... will it rain on he plains of Spain?

Postby omar » Sat Oct 21, 2017 5:56 pm

Hello Jakob

Yes. The fascist government in Madrid tyrannized the people to stay home in their typical Franco-dirty-brownshirt fashion.
If the vote had been allowed like in a sane state, Id say it would have been more like 95 percent. But using police to beat up old ladies does work to scare people.


Either that or people that were in support of remaining a part of Spain did not see the wisdom in going out to vote in an election that was already declared unconstitutional by their government. All of this is just speculation though.

No no no, that is just an excuse that is always used for Hitler as well. He was just fighting communists.
And who is to day European communism would have been worse than nazism of Franco-ism, anyway? Seems presumptuous.


I don't know. Communism, however, has enough examples of brutality that dwarfs Franco's brown shirts. Doesn't seem that either faction would have been good for the country in my opinion.

The facts are that the Spanish had a fascist government and that this is in line with centuries of vicious, cruel, blunt, stupid, barbaric and contemptible Spanish tyranny.
What has that country ever produced, except some good painters?
It should be broken up into regions and subjected by Germany and France.


Centuries? You know that at one point they were a super-power. Their empire one of the biggest. Spanish viciousness, cruelty, tyranny and barbarism were not a problem for spaniards but for the Incas, Mayans that were enslaved or killed by the Spanish Crown. And this is part of the problem today. We live in a moment in history that is relatively quiet and peaceful. As humans, we possess the ability to love everyone, so long as there are enough left for us to hate. The sense of identity grows or dwindles in the face of an Other. At this time in history most countries lack an outside Other and so Others are being identified within the "We", the "Us".
States like Italy, Spain, Germany...maybe any state?...share the common history of fraction, of a whole made of parts that at one point were quite independent. So lets not dream about these states as if they were just turning violent--they were created and rest upon the threat of violence. We like to think that it is common interests, but that is only true as long as the different parties agree on what is common. It also relies on men with no chests, reasonable men who can see common calculations that all can clearly see. Not sure we have them.

I don't much care either way, but I just think Madrid demonstrated its utter barbarism, and made it very clear why Catalunya is deeply embarrassed to fall under the Spanish crown, which is among the most childish perverse pretences to authority there ever were.


Their hand was forced by Catalunya. I think that things went the way that they wanted. They knew that their vote was dead on arrival, declared unconstitutional. Had 80% showed up, in spite of all the threats, Madrid and the EU would be more willing to engage in talks. But in the end no rational government can let their golden goose slip from their fingers without resistance. What would you do? Put yourself in Madrid's position-- what would you do?

I get the idea in the long run may be to have Spain, that utterly useless wasteland, fall away and welcome Catalunya, which is actually a region where people know what they are doing.


That assumes an unrealistic situation of isolation. Already we see that the financial sector is reacting negatively to the confrontation between Barcelona and Madrid, so, in a future within a global economy, it is possible that the incertitude could cost Barcelona economically (although they would probably end up better than the situation they're currently in as the golden goose of Madrid).

Spaniards are on average really clueless.


Jeez. You really don't like these folks...

I think even he was surprised by the medieval arrogance of the despot in Madrid. Im sure he is still modifying his strategy to fit to a dark age approach, which will be more suitable the coming time, I fear.


WHY WAS HE SURPRISED?!!!!!! The referendum was declared unconstitutional AHEAD of the vote--where was the ambiguity? I think that the vote was a power play, just as May wanted to do in GB, which backfired, to hold negotiations under a "mandate" by the "People". But again, Madrid is acting the way you would expect it to act. I see no other course for Madrid, which actually is a strategic weakness for Barcelona's bid, whatever it was, by putting all their eggs in one baskets and leaving no save-face third option for either side. It is not that Madrid is bloodthirsty, brutal, blah, blah, blah-- it is doing what you would expect it to do. I understand the reasons for Barcelona, but I disagree with their timing. Under their current financial straits, Madrid is not in a position to entertain losing Catalunya. At a different time, more prosperous, such bid might have been received differently.
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Re: So... will it rain on he plains of Spain?

Postby Jakob » Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:27 pm

Hey Omar,
Oh yeah, the inquisition was painful for as many Spaniards as well. And Franco, mild in your eyes, was not so mild in the eyes of those that fought him.

Their hand was forced by Catalunya. I think that things went the way that they wanted. They knew that their vote was dead on arrival, declared unconstitutional. Had 80% showed up, in spite of all the threats, Madrid and the EU would be more willing to engage in talks. But in the end no rational government can let their golden goose slip from their fingers without resistance. What would you do? Put yourself in Madrid's position-- what would you do?

WHY WAS HE SURPRISED?!!!!!! The referendum was declared unconstitutional AHEAD of the vote--where was the ambiguity

The answer here are related.
I would simply have found a way to not make it absolutely clear to every one in Catalunya that the stat they are supposedly part of has absolutely zero respect for them whatsoever.
The very worst thing he could have done.

I don't mind either way, its just an observation of truly medieval politics by a crown that has never represented anything besides murderous thugs, and you're seeing the reactions occur, predictably.

Seriously Spain is totally barren, culturally speaking. Andalucia has some Arab virtues, the Basques have some Keltic virtues, but its not a country of substance. Culturally and just the persons you'll meet, Catalunya is by far the most generous of spirit. Madrilenes live in a bubble. They think having killed the most people of every murderous gang ever lived gives them some cultural status. No. Just, not.
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Re: So... will it rain on he plains of Spain?

Postby Jakob » Sun Oct 22, 2017 2:36 pm

Here is a list of Spains most impressive contributions to the world as seen through the eyes of expats.

Pedro Almodóvar
The Spanish language
Zara
Pablo Picasso
Don Quixote
The Alliance of Civilizations
Sherry

Note, the Alliance of Civilizations is an initiative it made I 2004, right after it had joined Bush in 2003 in invading Iraq...
I think it is the most pathetic country in the world. The total debility of Spain is known in European bars, as Spanish tourists are actually retarded.
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Re: So... will it rain on he plains of Spain?

Postby Jakob » Mon Oct 23, 2017 1:37 pm

But seriously man, all I know of Spanish globo-culture is stupid murdering thugs.
Then we have the Spanish speaking world down South is hardy anything culturally significant too - they have like, one song, and a trillion versions of it.
Sure they can move their hips and some women have very nice bodies and even characters. But that is Latin America, not Spain, where people are generally scrawny scabby shadows.

It was the Commies that defeated Hitler and Franco.
Franco is not even 40 ears ago. A bit early to grow an authoritarian attitude toward the richest and most productive province with the highest average IQ. Further, Spain should pay a few hundred bilion in reparations to each South American country as well, rather than growing an attitude of entitlement. They are drastically overplaying their hand.
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Re: So... will it rain on he plains of Spain?

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:28 am

Is the current spat between Madrid and Catalonia a microcosm of what to expect in the days, weeks, months ahead?

An interesting article here ... http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-10-2 ... tudy-spain
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Re: So... will it rain on he plains of Spain?

Postby Jakob » Tue Oct 24, 2017 4:37 pm

I feel bad about this blanket insult to Spaniards.
I have one good Spanish friend. He is from Sevilla. And Ive met enough Spaniards to realize it is only their upper classes, their old aristocracy, that is this loathsome.

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:Is the current spat between Madrid and Catalonia a microcosm of what to expect in the days, weeks, months ahead?

An interesting article here ... http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-10-2 ... tudy-spain

Decent article.
I don't think however that it is entirely accurate in describing Catalunya as a canary in the coalmine, as it is hardly the first European region to vie for independence. In Spain alone, the Basques have bombed Madrid to be independent for decades, abroad, to begin with Northern Ireland and Schotland, then Flanders has always wanted to separate from Brussels control, a bit back we get the Kosovo situation, and so it goes on, further back Bayern about to secede leading to Hitler - so theres all that.

Having given these examples, you can see how dangerous this can get.
I mean what I say about Spain and its rulership - its so deeply inbred, so profoundly degenerate, so obscenely retarded, that it could make a mome like this and feel like it is on the lawful side of things. It has literally no conception of individual dignity, of the idea that citizens could conceivably have the right to determine their own lives. It simply looks down on these concepts. Which would not be such a problem if they actually had some aristocratic virtues. But they are pretty close to being lepers.

Madrid is easily the most soul-dead capital of Europe. Barcelona is a powerful, first rate cultural city. Catalunya is the only culturally significant region of Spain. That is why the king is panicking - and the way he is acting in his panic shows how humanly insignificant and ethically abject that kingdom is.

Im not even for Catalunya seceding. I just think Spain kind of made it I inevitable now. If they had acted with some dignity, intelligence, care, or even these three together, the whole initiative would have been smothered in internal Catalunya conflicting nuances of interests. But now all Catalunyans have been kicked in the groin while having their hands tied behind their back, and that will simply press them for vengeance throughout their lives.
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Re: So... will it rain on he plains of Spain?

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Tue Oct 24, 2017 11:50 pm

A David and Goliath moment?

I have walked across Spain from Roncevales in the east to Santiago de Compostella in the northwest ... and ... up and down Spain from Seville in the south to Santiago de Compostella in the northwest.

The Spanish people who crossed my path were noble, passionate and generous people ... though since I walked as a pilgrim most of my encounters were with the lower rungs of Spanish society.

I feel empathy and compassion for the leadership community in Spain at the moment ... each of them is engaged in a difficult life journey ... it's not easy to live on the "other side of the tracks".
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Re: So... will it rain on he plains of Spain?

Postby Fixed Cross » Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:04 pm

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:A David and Goliath moment?

Not actually I think, because Catalunya is the wealthiest province of Spain.

I have walked across Spain from Roncevales in the east to Santiago de Compostella in the northwest ... and ... up and down Spain from Seville in the south to Santiago de Compostella in the northwest.

That must have been absolutely lovely. Id like to do that once.

The Spanish people who crossed my path were noble, passionate and generous people ... though since I walked as a pilgrim most of my encounters were with the lower rungs of Spanish society.

Yes. People you'll meet in the countryside, no matter the country, will tend to be far nobler than city-folk. (Why US Cities voted for Death and Countryside voted for Liberty)

I feel empathy and compassion for the leadership community in Spain at the moment ... each of them is engaged in a difficult life journey ... it's not easy to live on the "other side of the tracks".

No, I don't believe that they are worthy of sympathy at all. If they had some human qualities to them they would not have chosen as their first option the path of humiliating the Catalan citizenry. I do think the Spanish ruling class is thoroughly perverted, that their psychological makeup consists of boredom, entitlement, stupidity and cruelty, as all degenerate royal houses end up.

Constantines court is the standard here. Eunuchs, perverts, idiots, ugly women and trembling blades of brown grass passing for men.
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Re: So... will it rain on he plains of Spain?

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Sat Oct 28, 2017 12:02 am

Interesting post FC ... while I find your language a bit boorish you obviously have a deep ... as in still waters run deep ... understanding of the situation.

Feels like this OP is worthy of further discussion ... it has several elements with universal application.

Let me share my experience with the first Spanish person I met ... on my first walk across Spain (walked across Spain two and one half times :-) )

It happened during my first Camino in June 2000 ... my second day of walking in Spain … after walking a week or so in France.. It's important to remember that I have no itinerary and almost no information about the Camino Santiago. I met a man in Jaca ... where I arrived on my first day in Spain. He was like an 'angel' ... he shared his meal and some wine with me ... he left me the Spanish word 'ultreya' ... he helped me find some medicine for my blisters ... and finally he showed me a pamphlet in Spanish that would lead me to where I would stay the next night.

The next day ... walking along with my blisters was very difficult ... I was so happy to find this place my friend in Jaca told me about ... I think he was trying to tell me it would be a good place to rest. Little did I know what a pleasant surprise would happen as a result of his kindness. I should mention I never saw this man again.

I am sitting in the restaurant at the hotel trying to order a glass of water ... using international body language. The waiter eventually brings me a large glass of beer ... seems he understood my body's needs better than I did ... I thoroughly enjoyed the beer. :-) A few sips of beer later a gentleman sitting not far from me says something to me in English ... now why didn't he help me with my efforts to get a glass of water? Not important ... he would turn out to be a tremendous help.


I believe my Spanish friend's kindness is also universal ... we're all capable of such kindness ... to a stranger.

If correct ... why do we have such difficulty surfacing such kindness?

We are besotted by celebrity. For most of us, the rich and famous take on a god-like status and our own lives seem small, empty, and hardly worth living in comparison to what we imagine theirs to be.

Fame, we believe, gives someone a life bigger than our own. We live in just one place, anonymous, domestic, unknown, but someone who is famous, whose face is recognized everywhere and whose name is a household word, it would seem, is everywhere, omnipresent like God. No wonder we view them as gods and give them worship.
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Re: So... will it rain on he plains of Spain?

Postby Fixed Cross » Sat Oct 28, 2017 3:54 pm

Thanks for sharing part of your story. Its always good to read of adventures.
Yes, Ive had the same experience with drinking beer in Spain to quench my thirst. On that level, Spain is good. A good country.

But it is a fact that it is the most murderous country of Europe, that its fascism is very recent, and that Catalunya was the only region fighting that fascism, and that the tone and approach of the king is nothing more than fascistic.

I do not see any way of reconciling your love of the Spanish countryside and simple countryside folk with your defence of the kings shameless contempt for human dignity and self-determination.

As boorish as you may find this, I see that king as of the sort of quality as Calligula, I don't see how he deserves the sympathy of a man that appreciates kindness.
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Re: So... will it rain on he plains of Spain?

Postby Fixed Cross » Sat Oct 28, 2017 3:55 pm

Story develops, Spain heads for civil war.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/spain-poised ... 37762.html

Madrid (AFP) - Spain was plunged into crisis Friday as Madrid seized power from independence-seeking Catalonia, the first curtailment of regional autonomy since the brutal dictatorship of Francisco Franco.

After regional lawmakers voted to declare a Catalan "republic", Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy moved swiftly to dissolve the rebel government and parliament, and called December 21 elections to replace them.

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In an escalating standoff closely watched by secession-wary Europe, Rajoy fired pro-independence leader Carles Puigdemont and all his ministers as well as the director of the regional police, and Catalan envoys to Madrid and Brussels, to halt what he termed an "escalation of disobedience."

Secessionist lawmakers voted 70 to 10 in the 135-member parliament Friday to declare Catalonia "a republic in the form of an independent and sovereign state".

They take their mandate from the "Yes" result in a banned and unregulated October 1 independence referendum spurned by many more than half of Catalan electors.

Observers warned of trouble ahead, with Catalan officials and public servants likely to defy orders from caretaker envoys sent by the central government.

"Tensions are likely to rise significantly over the coming days," suggested Teneo Intelligence, a risk analysis group.

"Demonstrators might try to prevent the police from removing Catalan ministers from their offices... This increases the risk of violent clashes," it said in a statement.

- 'Demolished democracy' -

The region of some 7.5 million people accounts for about 16 percent of Spain's population, a fifth of its economic output, and attracts more tourists than anywhere else in the country.

Catalonia´s inhabitants are fiercely protective of their language, culture and autonomy -- restored after a long period of oppression during nationalist Franco´s 1936-1979 rule.

In Barcelona, separatists broke out in ecstatic shouts of: "Independence!" and popped bottles of cava, a Catalan sparkling wine, as the outcome of Friday´s vote was announced. Separatist MPs cheered and embraced before singing the Catalan anthem.

But any cause for joy was soon nipped in the bud, and shares in Spanish companies, particularly Catalan banks, dropped sharply as the crisis deepened.

"We Spaniards are living through a sad day in which a lack of reason prevailed upon the law and demolished democracy in Catalonia," Rajoy said as he announced steps to "restore normality".

The sweeping measures were approved by the Senate Friday under a constitutional article designed to rein in rebels among Spain's 17 regions.

Madrid's allies in the European Union and the United States rallied behind Madrid as they voiced alarm over developments in Spain´s worst political crisis in decades.

European Council President Donald Tusk said Madrid "remains our only interlocutor" following the independence vote.

"I hope the Spanish government favours force of argument, not argument of force," he tweeted

- Battle of wills -

The issue is not a clear-cut battle of wills between Madrid and Catalonia, however.

Polls show Catalans themselves are split, pretty much down the middle, on the issue of independence from Spain.

Dozens of opposition MPs walked out before Friday´s secret ballot in the Catalan parliament, one lamenting "a dark day" for democracy.

Later in the day, hundreds of anti-independence protesters gathered in central Barcelona, chanting "I am Spanish, Spanish!"

Waving the Spanish flag, several demanded Puigdemont be jailed for sedition, even as prosecutors announced they would file "rebellion" charges against him next week.

He risks up to 30 years in jail.

But outside the seat of the Generalitat, the Catalan government, the mood was festive, with fireworks and music.

"We are a free country," revelled Maria Altimira, 65.

- Disobedience -

Catalan resentment at Madrid's perceived interference has been building for years, compounded by the 2008 economic crisis. Many complain that the region contributes more to the central purse than it gets back.

The UN urged both sides Friday to "seek solutions within the framework of the Spanish constitution, and through established political and legal channels."

But far-left groups have already threatened "massive civil disobedience" if Madrid usurps Catalan autonomy.

"We are likely to see more sustained unrest, possibly including strikes, as well as more serious clashes between national police and pro-independence activists," said Federico Santi, an analyst at Eurasia Group, a US-based politics think-tank.

"The main signpost over the weekend will be whether the regional government refuses to willingly and peacefully step down."

- Call for restraint -

Puigdemont appealed for calm.

"We will have to maintain the momentum of this country (Catalonia) in the coming hours," he told lawmakers and onlookers in Barcelona after the legislature vote, and urged them to do so in the spirit of "peace, civic responsibility and dignity."

There are deep concerns over the economic impact of the showdown, with nearly 1,700 companies already having moved their legal headquarters out of Catalonia, which has an economic output equivalent to that of Portugal

Not very hard to see where this is going.
Berlin will be secure in drawing the maximal profit from a divided and collapsed Spain.

Silly bastardos.
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Re: So... will it rain on he plains of Spain?

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Sun Oct 29, 2017 1:19 am

I do not see any way of reconciling your love of the Spanish countryside and simple countryside folk with your defence of the kings shameless contempt for human dignity and self-determination.


FC ... isn't that the purpose of discussion ... to elucidate the participants understanding/interpretation of stuff?
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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Re: So... will it rain on he plains of Spain?

Postby Fixed Cross » Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:45 pm

Yes, so how do you reconcile the overt and proud fascism of the king on the one hand and good people on the other?

Ive given you facts, arguments, the lot. But youve so far only related a personal story about meeting nice people. What of the nice people of Catalunya? Are you really ready to trample them?

Look, Spain is politically stuck in the dark ages.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... dependence
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
- Thucydides

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Re: So... will it rain on he plains of Spain?

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:36 am

Yes, so how do you reconcile the overt and proud fascism of the king on the one hand and good people on the other?


By looking at the big picture and reflecting on the tiny bit of history ... revisionist or not ... that I'm aware of.

The strategy in play hasn't changed for millenia ...

1) The priestly class in Ancient Judaism.

2) Adopted by many world religions ... self evident in the priestly hierarchy of their respective institutions.

3) The gods ... Pharaohs of Egypt ... Emperors of China(proclaimed to be Sons of Heaven)

Nietzsche shattered the glass house ... the "God" paradigm ... those with their hands on the levers of power are seeking an alternative. Today it's AI ... the essence of AI projects worldwide is simple ... "contain, control and manipulate" "I" ... the same strategy employed by religion(s) throughout history. It's a modern day version of the glass house of "God".

You have correctly pointed out who is on one side of the tracks and who is on the other side.

Your intuitive reaction ??? ... thoughts??
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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Re: So... will it rain on he plains of Spain?

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Fri Nov 03, 2017 3:05 pm

Stephen Hawking

"Enormous levels of investment are pouring into this technology. The achievements we have seen so far will surely pale against what the coming decades will bring,” he concluded, adding that among potential dangers, which could be created by AI might be "powerful autonomous weapons, or new ways for the few to oppress the many."


https://sputniknews.com/science/2017110 ... /#comments
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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