## Tax and Healthcare Plan

For discussions of culture, politics, economics, sociology, law, business and any other topic that falls under the social science remit.

### Tax and Healthcare Plan

I wrote to PK:
Corporate net profit tax of 20 percent strictly to provide for basic human needs. No taxation of privates.

Could that be done?

Healthcare, basic form (doctors checkups, emergency room, recovery), housing (communal) and plenty of foods included in the basic rights of being a human on an exploited Earth.
Last edited by Jakob on Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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### Re: Tax Plan

Who pays for the police and firefighters?

I would let provinces, counties, states and cities decide on that, as centers of large communities with certain ethics and aesthetics of life they may impose further taxes as requirements for buying properties there. Or communities can decide to be anarchic. A value based system, predictably, where humans gather in terms of code rather than legal nationality.

People could also be required to have precautions in some cities, where it is illegal to not bear arms.

How are communities protected from each other? Simple, that is the only reason for a federal government; arbitration between states, communities, cities - - that would be something to behold.

Why is the word Renaissance in my head.

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### Re: Tax and Healthcare Plan

Jakob wrote:I wrote to PK:
Corporate net profit tax of 20 percent strictly to provide for basic human needs. No taxation of privates.

Could that be done?

Healthcare, basic form (doctors checkups, emergency room, recovery), housing (communal) and plenty of foods included in the basic rights of being a human on an exploited Earth.

K: one of the problems in modern society, indeed all societies has been
income inequality, the difference between the wealthy and the rest of us...
you have to solve income inequality in some fashion to be able to accomplish
your goals... it is not enough to tax, we must have a more equal society,
economically for some progress to occur in our society......

Kropotkin
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wind up with neither."
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### Re: Tax and Healthcare Plan

I still want people to have to exploit their talents to become very wealthy. I don't want to abolish the luxuries of life, I just want to give everyone a truly fair shot.
That implies a lot for the legal system as well - such as that money shouldn't be the arbiter of it.
Money needs to cease to be the bottom line, even in business - value is to be the first bottom line that logical works to produce more of itself without cost.
Cost inflicted by value is only inflicted on non-values, these becomes values by infection.
religiously this is how our mind was formed into a morally judging one -economically it is much the same. Money is easy for our mind and I see no way out.
Nature needs us to keep up.

This brings me to my point. Free money is more expensive than free food and shelter and no way covers economized healthcare. Theres been a lot of talk about a basic income. I guess it would be great, but normally, that is paid back directly in taxes from other private people and thats noble of them if they want to, but theft if they don't.

We can tax a corporation for exploiting us humans and growing on our account by giving us what we want for apparently more than it is really worth. If a corp. makes profits it is selfish. So we tax it some, so that the less powerfully selfish can also eat and sleep well.

Greed is useful if it is taxed when it conspires with other greed. Nature abhors a vacuum - gotta make use of every available stratagem to win this game.

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### Re: Tax and Healthcare Plan

Yeah. You see what lowering taxes on big profits does.

But this rate seems sufficient, I already calculated 20% as more than enough to cover real requirements if the money is being spent in ways remotely in therein of sanity.

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### Re: Tax and Healthcare Plan

Or just this. Come on.
What is that.

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### Re: Tax and Healthcare Plan

Taxes work to pay bureaucrats, who by Parkinsons law necessarily increase in number and become less efficient as this is the nature of the bureaucratic beast - getting people under you to cover your sloth - only a sloth wants to be a bureaucrat, unless we are talking some renegade maverick of evil using a bureaucracy for Stalinistic purposes, which, when they come, leave their trace on the orientation of the apparatus, which itself had no will but sloth and multiplication of servants wo can get coffee.

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### Re: Tax and Healthcare Plan

By the end of it the coffee had become really good. It has to be said.

- a former CEO who chose to remain anonymous.

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### Re: Tax and Healthcare Plan

Essentially this comes down to enforcing both libertarian and Epicurean standards - aesthetics before morals.
Morals are too lustful, bloated, they are found too plentily in line at Mc Donalds.

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### Re: Tax and Healthcare Plan

My percentages may be way off, the point of it is that private tax is no necessary when you reduce bureaucracy and provide measured services.

One big question is the type of healthcare - citizens now pay to turn their children into zombies and murderers with expensive drugs like the 'Zac that we can pack to go with the mac in the back of the Ac and that costs its fair share in billions too. Reducing some industries to the purposes they allegedly serve will reduce the value of the down jones but will increase the value of life. I am afraid new sorts of industries will have to eventually be invented for taxes to be abolished.

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### Re: Tax and Healthcare Plan

Marx got profit backwards, profit is not theft of surplus value from workers by owners, profit is the giving of surplus value by both owners and workers. Profit is literally the creation of value, and money symbolizes this. More money is created when values are created, this is why the monetary supply gradually increases over time, because there are always more values coming into existence.

Inflating the money supply beyond the rate of growth of values is irrational. But that is basically what everyone does, because there is no distinction between money in your pocket that was created on par with the creation of values and money in your pocket that was created out of thin air without reference to creation of values. Because there is no distinction there, it is easy to value the money directly and for its own sake, which is stupid. But then again, humans are pretty stupid.

Taxes are just a cost upon profits, which means a partial redirection of created value away from those who make and trade for those values and to others who were not involved. This is represented by the movement of money away from the economy and to the government, since the government has the legal and practical power to distribute that excess. The economy is first order mining of value, the government is second order mining of value. Governments that get either too small or too large end up causing instability and war, because such governments cannot provide for the functional existence of an economy and it is only "an economy" that establishes the system whereby values can be created en mass and over a long period of time, because to create values requires to trade values. The economy is the ability for the average person to freely give his/her surplus value, which is what everyone always wants to do. Contrary to Marx.

Profit is another word for "life".

As for basic universal income, I think that is a very bad idea. I did the numbers a while ago, even a very modest universal income would bankrupt the government by stripping so much money out of the economy as taxes that the economy would cease functioning and thus the government would collapse, leading to more economic collapse, leading to more government collapse. Also, the idea that a person is guaranteed free income for doing nothing is absolutely insane. The government is not an entity like a family where individuals are bonded locally to each other and freely give surplus value to each other because of the added value they get from that in other ways; and even a family makes expectations upon its members who it helps out.

Health insurance is just a way to extract more value from the economy and redirect it to those who were not involved in its creation. I.e. just another form of taxation. Socialized healthcare is an attempt to destroy private insurance, but not so that a better system (free market system) can be put in place, rather so markets are destroyed entirely and the entire healthcare industry is transferred to the government, i.e. run entirely on taxes. Government makes profit by stealing from people in the form of taxation, therefore a government cannot really make profit in the true sense, because no one freely chooses to pay the government for values it makes. Government just says "here are the values we have, you will pay us X dollars for them." By robbing the ability of people to freely give their surplus value any value production that the government is involved in will always represent a huge net loss and cannot be counted as profit. Profit means win-win.

Also, corporate taxes don't really exist since corporations just raise the price of their goods and services when they are taxed. All this does is effectively tax the consumers even more, while making the marketplace less competitive by reducing consumer purchasing power. This naturally benefits corporations who do not really want to compete anyway. The more an industry is monopolized, the more it will gladly accept high corporate taxes.

And the idea of health insurance implies that our health-related activities should be monitored and quantified so that actuarial tables can be drawn up. Just like with car insurance. That won't really happen though since most people cannot afford health insurance anyway, and if you really built a health insurance model on actuarial tables the cost for so many people would increase even more than they already have. And a healthy person would not need to purchase much insurance anyway, and that insurance would be very cheap for them. But it doesn't work that way since there are so many very unhealthy people who are subsidized by everyone else. In a true health insurance system, unhealthy people who cannot pay the high costs of their health insurance would be denied health insurance, and then they would be denied health services. Obviously that isn't going to happen, therefore the entire concept of health insurance is a joke to begin with.
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### Re: Tax and Healthcare Plan

If your driving record is bad enough then you cannot buy car insurance because no one will choose to sell it to you, and rightly so. Just like if your McDonalds consumption record is bad enough, you should be denied health insurance. What rational actor would choose to sell health insurance to a daily McDonalds consumer?
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### Re: Tax and Healthcare Plan

UrGod wrote:Marx got profit backwards, profit is not theft of surplus value from workers by owners, profit is the giving of surplus value by both owners and workers. Profit is literally the creation of value, and money symbolizes this. More money is created when values are created, this is why the monetary supply gradually increases over time, because there are always more values coming into existence.

Inflating the money supply beyond the rate of growth of values is irrational. But that is basically what everyone does, because there is no distinction between money in your pocket that was created on par with the creation of values and money in your pocket that was created out of thin air without reference to creation of values. Because there is no distinction there, it is easy to value the money directly and for its own sake, which is stupid. But then again, humans are pretty stupid.

Taxes are just a cost upon profits, which means a partial redirection of created value away from those who make and trade for those values and to others who were not involved. This is represented by the movement of money away from the economy and to the government, since the government has the legal and practical power to distribute that excess. The economy is first order mining of value, the government is second order mining of value. Governments that get either too small or too large end up causing instability and war, because such governments cannot provide for the functional existence of an economy and it is only "an economy" that establishes the system whereby values can be created en mass and over a long period of time, because to create values requires to trade values. The economy is the ability for the average person to freely give his/her surplus value, which is what everyone always wants to do. Contrary to Marx.

Profit is another word for "life".

As for basic universal income, I think that is a very bad idea. I did the numbers a while ago, even a very modest universal income would bankrupt the government by stripping so much money out of the economy as taxes that the economy would cease functioning and thus the government would collapse, leading to more economic collapse, leading to more government collapse. Also, the idea that a person is guaranteed free income for doing nothing is absolutely insane. The government is not an entity like a family where individuals are bonded locally to each other and freely give surplus value to each other because of the added value they get from that in other ways; and even a family makes expectations upon its members who it helps out.

Health insurance is just a way to extract more value from the economy and redirect it to those who were not involved in its creation. I.e. just another form of taxation. Socialized healthcare is an attempt to destroy private insurance, but not so that a better system (free market system) can be put in place, rather so markets are destroyed entirely and the entire healthcare industry is transferred to the government, i.e. run entirely on taxes. Government makes profit by stealing from people in the form of taxation, therefore a government cannot really make profit in the true sense, because no one freely chooses to pay the government for values it makes. Government just says "here are the values we have, you will pay us X dollars for them." By robbing the ability of people to freely give their surplus value any value production that the government is involved in will always represent a huge net loss and cannot be counted as profit. Profit means win-win.

Also, corporate taxes don't really exist since corporations just raise the price of their goods and services when they are taxed. All this does is effectively tax the consumers even more, while making the marketplace less competitive by reducing consumer purchasing power. This naturally benefits corporations who do not really want to compete anyway. The more an industry is monopolized, the more it will gladly accept high corporate taxes.

And the idea of health insurance implies that our health-related activities should be monitored and quantified so that actuarial tables can be drawn up. Just like with car insurance. That won't really happen though since most people cannot afford health insurance anyway, and if you really built a health insurance model on actuarial tables the cost for so many people would increase even more than they already have. And a healthy person would not need to purchase much insurance anyway, and that insurance would be very cheap for them. But it doesn't work that way since there are so many very unhealthy people who are subsidized by everyone else. In a true health insurance system, unhealthy people who cannot pay the high costs of their health insurance would be denied health insurance, and then they would be denied health services. Obviously that isn't going to happen, therefore the entire concept of health insurance is a joke to begin with.

K: after reading this post, it is clear you don't know anything about Marx, you don't
you don't know anything about taxes..

you..... don't.......know........anything.....period.....

and the real problem is, to get you even vaguely educated enough to talk to,
will take years, I am not wasting my time doing that.....you are just another uneducated person
wasting time on a site you can't understand...

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
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### Re: Tax and Healthcare Plan

Peter Kropotkin wrote:K: after reading this post, it is clear you don't know anything about Marx, you don't
you don't know anything about taxes..

you..... don't.......know........anything.....period.....

and the real problem is, to get you even vaguely educated enough to talk to,
will take years, I am not wasting my time doing that.....you are just another uneducated person
wasting time on a site you can't understand...

Kropotkin

Ad hom. I wont report, but please refrain from this respectless behaviour and provide some rational argument, or at least the semblance of making an attempt at one.

Our group has been studying Marx and Hegel for years now.
Have you read Hegel? If you havent, you have no chance in hell of understanding Marx.

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### Re: Tax and Healthcare Plan

UrGod wrote:Marx got profit backwards, profit is not theft of surplus value from workers by owners, profit is the giving of surplus value by both owners and workers. Profit is literally the creation of value, and money symbolizes this. More money is created when values are created, this is why the monetary supply gradually increases over time, because there are always more values coming into existence.

Yes, but what happens to this money?
I am arguing that it is beneficial for the whole of the economy to let some value trickle down to people that aren't necessarily as savvy in the most competitive terms of finance. I think this can only un-stress the economy and produce more effective surplus.
Right now all the surplus is being bottled up.

Also, note that my proposed rate of 20 percent corporate tax is far lower than it has been for a century.

Inflating the money supply beyond the rate of growth of values is irrational. But that is basically what everyone does, because there is no distinction between money in your pocket that was created on par with the creation of values and money in your pocket that was created out of thin air without reference to creation of values. Because there is no distinction there, it is easy to value the money directly and for its own sake, which is stupid. But then again, humans are pretty stupid.

Taxes are just a cost upon profits, which means a partial redirection of created value away from those who make and trade for those values and to others who were not involved. This is represented by the movement of money away from the economy and to the government, since the government has the legal and practical power to distribute that excess. The economy is first order mining of value, the government is second order mining of value. Governments that get either too small or too large end up causing instability and war, because such governments cannot provide for the functional existence of an economy and it is only "an economy" that establishes the system whereby values can be created en mass and over a long period of time, because to create values requires to trade values. The economy is the ability for the average person to freely give his/her surplus value, which is what everyone always wants to do. Contrary to Marx.

Profit is another word for "life".

This is why I am against taxing humans.
If we need any form of public government at all, that means well have to tax corporations instead. that may go not their prices, but humans will be free to decide to pay those prices, where they are unfree to decide if they want to pay taxes.

As for basic universal income, I think that is a very bad idea. I did the numbers a while ago, even a very modest universal income would bankrupt the government by stripping so much money out of the economy as taxes that the economy would cease functioning and thus the government would collapse, leading to more economic collapse, leading to more government collapse. Also, the idea that a person is guaranteed free income for doing nothing is absolutely insane. The government is not an entity like a family where individuals are bonded locally to each other and freely give surplus value to each other because of the added value they get from that in other ways; and even a family makes expectations upon its members who it helps out.

Yes, Ive done the numbers too. This is why I propose free food and shelter - and basic healthcare instead.
You know my position on modern diseases - I am not going to go into that in public, ever - but I know for a fact that we can do with a thousandth of the current spending and get infinitely better results and much longer lifespans, incomparably better quality of life -
all the current healthcare industry does is kill people as slowly as possible so that they can pay for their own killing for as long as possible, and get as much of their offspring as deep in debt as possible.

Health insurance is just a way to extract more value from the economy and redirect it to those who were not involved in its creation. I.e. just another form of taxation. Socialized healthcare is an attempt to destroy private insurance, but not so that a better system (free market system) can be put in place, rather so markets are destroyed entirely and the entire healthcare industry is transferred to the government, i.e. run entirely on taxes. Government makes profit by stealing from people in the form of taxation, therefore a government cannot really make profit in the true sense, because no one freely chooses to pay the government for values it makes. Government just says "here are the values we have, you will pay us X dollars for them." By robbing the ability of people to freely give their surplus value any value production that the government is involved in will always represent a huge net loss and cannot be counted as profit. Profit means win-win.

So again, abolish all healthcare tax and insurance, and just provide free emergency room and periodic doctor checkups through taxing the largest profits.
This will simply, directly and effectively turn into power to work, buy and consume, thus in turn increasing the profits again.

Also, corporate taxes don't really exist since corporations just raise the price of their goods and services when they are taxed. All this does is effectively tax the consumers even more, while making the marketplace less competitive by reducing consumer purchasing power. This naturally benefits corporations who do not really want to compete anyway. The more an industry is monopolized, the more it will gladly accept high corporate taxes.

A 20 percent flat tax on non-human entities making monetary profit is a reduction of several orders of total taxation.

And the idea of health insurance implies that our health-related activities should be monitored and quantified so that actuarial tables can be drawn up. Just like with car insurance. That won't really happen though since most people cannot afford health insurance anyway, and if you really built a health insurance model on actuarial tables the cost for so many people would increase even more than they already have. And a healthy person would not need to purchase much insurance anyway, and that insurance would be very cheap for them. But it doesn't work that way since there are so many very unhealthy people who are subsidized by everyone else. In a true health insurance system, unhealthy people who cannot pay the high costs of their health insurance would be denied health insurance, and then they would be denied health services. Obviously that isn't going to happen, therefore the entire concept of health insurance is a joke to begin with.

Yes it is a joke, a terminally sick joke. It will end - and we will end up with the basic given that health is its own ground.

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### Re: Tax and Healthcare Plan

I like your idea of taxing corporations and stop taxing individuals. This is interesting, I will think more about it.
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### Re: Tax and Healthcare Plan

UrGod wrote:I like your idea of taxing corporations and stop taxing individuals. This is interesting, I will think more about it.

It occurs to me that it would entirely justify the Corporation as an entity - it exists so that humans don't have to pay taxes.
Lol.

Thats very cool.

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### Re: Tax and Healthcare Plan

Jakob wrote:
Peter Kropotkin wrote:K: after reading this post, it is clear you don't know anything about Marx, you don't
you don't know anything about taxes..

you..... don't.......know........anything.....period.....

and the real problem is, to get you even vaguely educated enough to talk to,
will take years, I am not wasting my time doing that.....you are just another uneducated person
wasting time on a site you can't understand...

Ad hom. I wont report, but please refrain from this respectless behaviour and provide some rational argument, or at least the semblance of making an attempt at one.

Our group has been studying Marx and Hegel for years now.
Have you read Hegel? If you havent, you have no chance in hell of understanding Marx.

K: urgod is clearly clueless about Marx... to correct all his mistakes would take
all my time, time I don't feel like wasting time on someone who is so clueless...
.....now feel free to Report me..............what are we, 12 again?

I have been studying Marx for a long time and I have done a study of Hegel,
abet a long time ago... I shall be returning to Hegel when I get there
during my study of western philosophy, right now I am at the Hobbes, Locke,
Descartes, Leibniz group of philosophers.. I maybe getting to Hegel in 6 months
to a year.....

Kropotkin
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wind up with neither."
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### Re: Tax and Healthcare Plan

I am sad to see you don't find this thread worthy of your philosophical thoughts, but only of insults.
I know UrGod knows Marx well, as Ive studied Marx together with him at least since late 2014, and we've each studied him separately before that.

Heres a book containing some basic ideas about how Marx can be interpreted in light of reality rather than of ideal.

http://www.lulu.com/shop/jakob-milikows ... 74101.html

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### Re: Tax and Healthcare Plan

[quote="UrGod"]Marx got profit backwards, profit is not theft of surplus value from workers by owners, profit is the giving of surplus value by both owners and workers. Profit is literally the creation of value, and money symbolizes this. More money is created when values are created, this is why the monetary supply gradually increases over time, because there are always more values coming into existence.

K: ok, I shall begin with this one paragraph... marx was correct that profit is the theft
of surplus value... it is not the "GIVING" of surplus value by both the owners and workers...
giving implies consent and there is no consent given from workers....
if you make $5 dollars and hour and you creates say,$10 dollars every hour...
thus your work creates 5 dollars of profit every hour....

I am a checker in a supermarket and I get paid a far bit, over $20 bucks a hour.. to justify my existence, I must create more than$22 bucks worth of profit....
and in fact, I must create quite a bit more... as my work creates the profit that
a company must survive on...and I have no choice in the matter....

"profit is the creation of value".... this is a misunderstanding of
both profit and values......

the dictionary on Value: 1. the value of a thing in money or goods. 2. estimated worth..
3.

dang, the wife needs something... I will be back...

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
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### Re: Tax and Healthcare Plan

Jakob wrote:
UrGod wrote:I like your idea of taxing corporations and stop taxing individuals. This is interesting, I will think more about it.

It occurs to me that it would entirely justify the Corporation as an entity - it exists so that humans don't have to pay taxes.
Lol.

Thats very cool.

You're right, very cool indeed.
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### Re: Tax and Healthcare Plan

Excellent, thanks for going through the trouble.

Peter Kropotkin wrote:
K: ok, I shall begin with this one paragraph... marx was correct that profit is the theft
of surplus value... it is not the "GIVING" of surplus value by both the owners and workers...
giving implies consent and there is no consent given from workers....

There is no consent when it concerns slaves, but Marx was talking about workers that come to work voluntarily.
Yes, in need of money, but they choose that job precisely because it gives them some money (some freedom, some power) in return for their labor.

If Marx had been talking about forced slavery, chain gangs, or prison labourers, he would have had a point.

if you make $5 dollars and hour and you creates say,$10 dollars every hour...
thus your work creates 5 dollars of profit every hour....

I am a checker in a supermarket and I get paid a far bit, over $20 bucks a hour.. to justify my existence, I must create more than$22 bucks worth of profit....
and in fact, I must create quite a bit more... as my work creates the profit that
a company must survive on...and I have no choice in the matter....

Except finding another job. Which is what a slave isn't allowed to do.
Marx turned the free proletariat into an order of self-proclaimed slaves.
But they still have Habeas Corpus - so do you - so there is no justification in saying you have no choice in the matter.
It is you who shows up at work. The police won't come get you if you don't.

"profit is the creation of value".... this is a misunderstanding of
both profit and values......

the dictionary on Value: 1. the value of a thing in money or goods. 2. estimated worth..

The value of profit can certainly be calculated in money, and also quite easily in goods.

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### Re: Tax and Healthcare Plan

Those like PK want to believe in their forced slavery to their jobs, most likely because they feel so disappointed in how their lives have turned out. They hate their jobs and feel like failures, which allows them to value the claim that they are merely slaves with no choice in the matter.

Yeah, PK if you don't like your job then go get another one, fucker.
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### Re: Tax and Healthcare Plan

Equating profit to theft is a bit demonic. Theft implies a taking from one who possesses without permission. Corporate profit has nothing to do with that, although various religious actions are certainly that way. I suspect Marx was referring more to his religion, acknowledging that theft of profit is merely how the world works and is thus not evil ("anything that works", aka "immoral").

Where workers for a company or corporation sell their services (even though mostly extorted) at a set price, profit is formed by converting those services into higher sellable value (not necessarily human value, merely sellable to the ignorant), "a marketable product". There is no theft from the workers in that scenario, despite other disagreeable interactions involved.

But healthcare is nothing more than the classic protectionism racket (as is most of modern day governing) - obfuscation [misdirection] and extortion.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
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James S Saint
ILP Legend

Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

### Re: Tax and Healthcare Plan

Each individual is responsible for his/her own health. That's it. Thus, "free market". Economy 101. Capitalism, bitches. Ima let you do you, and I'll do me.

Making insurance for medical care is insanity. At least when making this the basis for a society-wide system. Maybe for the marginals who have literally no money, 'cause they don't make any value. I am ok with some subsidized system for such. I agree with Fixed that such a (minimum) system tax-funded from corporate taxes could elevate the society-wide valuing space, but that is the limit. Healthcare is not a "right", it is a personal responsibility. And a personal cost, if you are stupid enough to neglect it.

Don't make me pay for your fucking chemo, you fat macdonald eating whores.
EIHWAZ PERTHO NAUTHIZ

ANSUZ

URUZ
Philosopher

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