Patriotism

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Patriotism

Postby WW_III_ANGRY » Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:18 pm

I went to a Chicago Blackhawks game last week, and a tradition at the United Center is to applause and cheer throughout the National Anthem. I think it's a great tradition and carried it on.
I consider myself a patriot, in so much as I do care deeply about the United States, which is to say, the people, not the government. The United States is a group of people who live together with the same rules, or at least are supposed to have the same rules. I find what benefits us all, will benefit myself, and such I am patriotic in that I want what is best for us all. Of course, my perception of what is best may not be what you perceive as best. Nonetheless, somethings are reconcilable and somethings are not.

My posts throughout these forums have been focused primarily on Trump since 2016, as I have found him to be a clear and present danger to what is best for this nation, the likes of which I haven't seen in my lifetime.
Now with that being said, considering what the national anthem has become at sporting events, I no longer have the same respect for the national anthem and the requirement by some that it must be respected, or the flag must be respected, at all costs. These two things are symbols and these symbols have different meanings for us all. To me, the symbol seems to mean something else. It is becoming for some, a patriot test, and I feel no need to answer to anyone about my patriotism. I have no desire to partake in any patriot test, if anyone thinks that I must obey this whim, in that kneeling during a national anthem must mean they are not a patriot, then I don't think I want to stand anymore.

My actions and my sentiment presented here in these forums speak for itself. I have provided caring, empathetic analysis for those who may or may not have the same advantages I have, for those who if they did, the United States might be a greater place, and if I can fight for a greater United States, I am too fighting for a greater home for myself. But when something begins to become a patriot test in the mind of others, it has gone too far in the mind of others and it is not something I'm going to play. It is far beneath me to take a Patriot test as far as I'm concerned. I know where I stand and people who hold that test in their eye, well, perhaps they need a reality check.
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Re: Patriotism

Postby WendyDarling » Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:29 pm

In the USA, patriotism is evident in the way folks respect or disrespect their flag, anthem, and those veterans and current service men who willing lay down their lives to protect our country. It's not a huge requirement to be silent and revere our flag in a traditional sense out of respect for our military, it's not too much to ask those who benefit from military bloodshed.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Patriotism

Postby Carleas » Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:37 pm

WW_III_ANGRY wrote:The United States is a group of people who live together with the same rules, or at least are supposed to have the same rules. I find what benefits us all, will benefit myself, and such I am patriotic in that I want what is best for us all.

This justification for patriotism is a little problematic. It seems that the country is at best a poor proxy of what you actually care about, which is yourself (I don't mean that as a slight) and those who will live together with the same rules. Specifically, it seems to follow that if say Canada had similar rules and your well-being was caught up in their well-being, you'd be as aligned with the interests of the Canada-US polity as you are with the US polity; on the other hand, if parts of the US were playing by different rules, or your well-being is not caught up in theirs, you would not particularly care about them. Am I reading you right?

I've always thought of myself as patriotic towards the ostensible values of the US (liberty, equality, diversity, democracy, etc.), and if the US stops advancing those values at some time in the future (or present, as the case may be), I would stop being a patriot for the US. And really that means that I'm not particularly a patriot, I have allegiance to certain values and because of that I have allegiance to any group or institution that espouses and supports those values. That seems similar to your patriotism.
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Re: Patriotism

Postby WendyDarling » Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:44 pm

What you two, Carleas and WWIII are describing is mental support, good wishes towards what you value, but neither of you are willing to honor those in the military who physically support and protect the both of you which is sad. Neither of you understand what true patriotism is, nor do I think you care to.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Patriotism

Postby tentative » Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:48 pm

It is a common tactic to call those who you disagree with as unpatriotic. We saw plenty of that in the Bush wars. It's just a ploy to distract from dissent. The kneeling or not standing had a message, but that message was lost in the furor over the symbol. But unfortunately, too many Americans look at the symbols and never consider whether the message adds or detracts from that symbol.
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Re: Patriotism

Postby phyllo » Tue Sep 26, 2017 6:05 pm

The original "kneeling" was a protest against "systemic racism". As if that is all the anthem represents or what America is.

Now the "kneeling" is a protest against Trump's tweets.

:-k Seems pretty superficial.
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Re: Patriotism

Postby WendyDarling » Tue Sep 26, 2017 6:27 pm

The football players' message had to do with white on black police brutality supported by uninformed liberals and black lives matter people who refuse to accept that many USA black people disrespect the authority of the police by not doing as they are told to by the police and the black people get hurt or killed justly for disobeying police orders by cops who happen to be white (and sometimes black as well, but that part of police brutality reality is ignored).
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Patriotism

Postby phyllo » Tue Sep 26, 2017 6:39 pm

Kaepernick used the tactic to get attention for his cause that he could not get in any other way.

He got attention and he got a disproportionate punishment. That should have ended it.

Now that Trump has reopened that can of worms, you're going to waste endless amounts of time bickering about it. Does Trump have any common sense at all?
"Who loves not wine, woman and song, remains a fool his whole life long."

"Only the educated are free" - Epictetus
"Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy" -Beethoven
"Everyday life is the way" -Wumen
"Do not permit the events of your daily life to bind you, but never withdraw yourself from them" - Wumen
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Re: Patriotism

Postby WendyDarling » Tue Sep 26, 2017 6:42 pm

He, the player, is a celebrity, he has access to reporters who care what he thinks, he should have used his voice to speak rather than act unpatriotic slapping the faces of those who protect him. It was a dumb move on his part to disrespect the military who have nothing to do with his cause.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Patriotism

Postby Is_Yde_opN » Tue Sep 26, 2017 6:44 pm

Blacks have been taught in the American education system that they are the eternally oppressed and exploited by the American system. Of course they are not patriotic towards America.

Contrast this with those people who are told that they are supposed to be patriotic towards America while paying the financial and in particular social costs for the unwanted inflicted diversification of America.
Their patriotism better become conditional, for having their America.
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Re: Patriotism

Postby phyllo » Tue Sep 26, 2017 6:48 pm

WendyDarling wrote:He's a celebrity, he has access to reporters who care what he thinks, he should have used his voice to speak rather than act unpatriotic slapping the faces of those who protect him. It was a dumb move on his part to disrespect the military who have nothing to do with his cause.
He's a minor player, which is why he did it that way he did.

One has to ask why athletes, actors and singers get the attention that they do?
"Who loves not wine, woman and song, remains a fool his whole life long."

"Only the educated are free" - Epictetus
"Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy" -Beethoven
"Everyday life is the way" -Wumen
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Re: Patriotism

Postby WendyDarling » Tue Sep 26, 2017 6:49 pm

Joker told me that much of the US Army is black and hispanic, I wonder how those military people feel about these stunts of disrespect towards them.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Patriotism

Postby Carleas » Tue Sep 26, 2017 6:55 pm

WendyDarling wrote:What you two, Carleas and WWIII are describing is mental support, good wishes towards what you value, but neither of you are willing to honor those in the military who physically support and protect the both of you which is sad. Neither of you understand what true patriotism is, nor do I think you care to.

There is a difference between patriotism and militarism, Wendy. One can be a patriot of a nation without a military.
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Re: Patriotism

Postby WendyDarling » Tue Sep 26, 2017 6:59 pm

If you as the patriot are willing to take up arms to protect your home, otherwise no, you cannot without some army protecting your hindends and countries who pay other countries to save them but have no skin in the game are no kind of patriots that I recognize. They are cowards that hide behind the bloodshed of other countries who save their asses, the same countries they blame for the plights of the world.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Patriotism

Postby tentative » Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:05 pm

WendyDarling wrote:Joker told me that much of the US Army is black and hispanic, I wonder how those military people feel about these stunts of disrespect towards them.
Those military blacks and hispanics have brothers and sisters who have faced racial discrimination in this country. They know the score and whether you like the message or not doesn't change the reality of it.

If you want the flag and the anthem to mean anything, then those ideals have to be reflected in how we act. Otherwise, those symbols simply become stained with hypocracy. There was no disrespect shown the military. Pointing out the discrepancy between our ideals and how we act is just as patriotic as those who risk their lives for us.

But it is much easier to scapegoat people of color than to face up to our own failures. Pffft.
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Re: Patriotism

Postby WW_III_ANGRY » Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:06 pm

WendyDarling wrote:In the USA, patriotism is evident in the way folks respect or disrespect their flag, anthem, and those veterans and current service men who willing lay down their lives to protect our country. It's not a huge requirement to be silent and revere our flag in a traditional sense out of respect for our military, it's not too much to ask those who benefit from military bloodshed.


This isn't about veterans or service men, or military, or those that died in wars, its much more than them, regardless of the that sounding cold, because it is more than them.
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Re: Patriotism

Postby WW_III_ANGRY » Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:12 pm

Carleas wrote:
WW_III_ANGRY wrote:The United States is a group of people who live together with the same rules, or at least are supposed to have the same rules. I find what benefits us all, will benefit myself, and such I am patriotic in that I want what is best for us all.

This justification for patriotism is a little problematic. It seems that the country is at best a poor proxy of what you actually care about, which is yourself (I don't mean that as a slight) and those who will live together with the same rules. Specifically, it seems to follow that if say Canada had similar rules and your well-being was caught up in their well-being, you'd be as aligned with the interests of the Canada-US polity as you are with the US polity; on the other hand, if parts of the US were playing by different rules, or your well-being is not caught up in theirs, you would not particularly care about them. Am I reading you right?

I've always thought of myself as patriotic towards the ostensible values of the US (liberty, equality, diversity, democracy, etc.), and if the US stops advancing those values at some time in the future (or present, as the case may be), I would stop being a patriot for the US. And really that means that I'm not particularly a patriot, I have allegiance to certain values and because of that I have allegiance to any group or institution that espouses and supports those values. That seems similar to your patriotism.


I would not jump ship to Canada if I like "Canada's rules" better. So no not really, my interests are the United States interests. I am patriotic towards the values of liberty, equality, justice, democracy, diversity etc, but I see the United States as more than those values as it does consist of the people we live with, our friends our family and those we pass on the roads, those who compete against jobs with us and so on. As such, I am not confining patriotism to representing even the constitution, what matters is the people and the welfare of the people, not the constitution, not isms, not anything else that is abstract. While the constitution and certain isms do promote the welfare of the people, the bottom line is that the welfare of the people are the true value found within supporting the nation and those isms and freedoms and liberty that have helped build the welfare of the people to it are not bigger than the people itself. Dynamic fluidity is often required in certain instances, as are an ethical concern for liberty, freedom etc. Hopefully that clears it up? The values are not abstract ideas, they are the people who I live with, as such, I am a patriot nonetheless.
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Re: Patriotism

Postby WW_III_ANGRY » Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:13 pm

WendyDarling wrote:What you two, Carleas and WWIII are describing is mental support, good wishes towards what you value, but neither of you are willing to honor those in the military who physically support and protect the both of you which is sad. Neither of you understand what true patriotism is, nor do I think you care to.


You're jumping to a bizarre conclusion - you have no idea how I honor the military. The flag, the national anthem, is not the military. It is a symbol of something much greater, see previous response.
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Re: Patriotism

Postby WW_III_ANGRY » Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:15 pm

Is_Yde_opN wrote:Blacks have been taught in the American education system that they are the eternally oppressed and exploited by the American system. Of course they are not patriotic towards America.

Contrast this with those people who are told that they are supposed to be patriotic towards America while paying the financial and in particular social costs for the unwanted inflicted diversification of America.
Their patriotism better become conditional, for having their America.


Sounds racist. If you think Colin isn't a patriot, you're wrong, he wouldn't have done what he did if he wasn't. Yeah, he's kind of black.
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Re: Patriotism

Postby WendyDarling » Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:17 pm

If you want the flag and the anthem to mean anything, then those ideals have to be reflected in how we act.

Then don't disrespect the police and the military, it's simple. People who do as the police require have no problems, people who behave don't get tackled and shot. But that goes for all people to obey the police, but poor and/or uneducated black, whites, and hispanic folks who reach into their pockets or behind their backs when they are told to put their hands up need to face their decision to disobey, unfortunately it costs them their lives. Are hispanics favored over blacks, so blacks are the only ones besides muslims in garb who get ill treatment? The muslims don't even make a ruckus like the blacks, they do as the police say, and one case after another the police officers were found innocent after the investigations. It's simple, follow the laws, follow police directions, no major problems. I'm glad that there are police body cameras, that's exposing more truth than lying words.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Patriotism

Postby tentative » Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:22 pm

WendyDarling wrote:
If you want the flag and the anthem to mean anything, then those ideals have to be reflected in how we act.

Then don't disrespect the police and the military, it's simple. People who do as the police require have no problems, people who behave don't get tackled and shot. But that goes for all people to obey the police, but poor and/or uneducated black, whites, and hispanic folks who reach into their pockets or behind their backs when they are told to put their hands up need to face their decision to disobey, unfortunately it costs them their lives. Are hispanics favored over blacks, so blacks are the only ones besides muslims in garb who get ill treatment? The muslims don't even make a ruckus like the blacks, they do as the police say, and one case after another the police officers were found innocent after the investigations. It's simple, follow the laws, follow police directions, no major problems. I'm glad that there are police body cameras, that's exposing more truth than lying words.


Sorry, You read like a collection of right wing bullet points. A half truth isn't the truth. Body cameras help but the courts have the final say - and it isn't always justice.
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Re: Patriotism

Postby WW_III_ANGRY » Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:23 pm

WendyDarling wrote:Then don't disrespect the police and the military, it's simple. People who do as the police require have no problems, people who behave don't get tackled and shot. But that goes for all people to obey the police, but poor and/or uneducated black, whites, and hispanic folks who reach into their pockets or behind their backs when they are told to put their hands up need to face their decision to disobey, unfortunately it costs them their lives. Are hispanics favored over blacks, so blacks are the only ones besides muslims in garb who get ill treatment? The muslims don't even make a ruckus like the blacks, they do as the police say, and one case after another the police officers were found innocent after the investigations. It's simple, follow the laws, follow police directions, no major problems. I'm glad that there are police body cameras, that's exposing more truth than lying words.


The flag and anthem doesn't mean the same thing to everyone else, nor will it ever, nor should you pretend or assume that what they are doing is "disrespect towards the flag or anthem" it is a protest towards a certain situation.
You're misinterpreting intent with your meaning of their act.
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Re: Patriotism

Postby WendyDarling » Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:24 pm

WW_III_ANGRY wrote:
WendyDarling wrote:What you two, Carleas and WWIII are describing is mental support, good wishes towards what you value, but neither of you are willing to honor those in the military who physically support and protect the both of you which is sad. Neither of you understand what true patriotism is, nor do I think you care to.


You're jumping to a bizarre conclusion - you have no idea how I honor the military. The flag, the national anthem, is not the military. It is a symbol of something much greater, see previous response.

No, the flag was a military symbol of our victory and always has been, so was the national anthem which describes our military victory. Patriotism starts with the military and if you have flowery sentiments in your head than you can call it whatever you want, but the flag and anthem have to do with war fought by our military yesterday and today.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Patriotism

Postby WW_III_ANGRY » Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:28 pm

WendyDarling wrote:
WW_III_ANGRY wrote:
WendyDarling wrote:What you two, Carleas and WWIII are describing is mental support, good wishes towards what you value, but neither of you are willing to honor those in the military who physically support and protect the both of you which is sad. Neither of you understand what true patriotism is, nor do I think you care to.


You're jumping to a bizarre conclusion - you have no idea how I honor the military. The flag, the national anthem, is not the military. It is a symbol of something much greater, see previous response.

No, the flag was a military symbol of our victory and always has been, so was the national anthem which describes our military victory. Patriotism starts with the military and if you have flowery sentiments in your head than you can call it whatever you want, but the flag and anthem have to do with war fought by our military yesterday and today.


The flag is a symbol of more than our victory, it is a symbol of everything the nation is. The national anthem is a symbol too of that. It is more than what you want it to be confined to, for many people. Symbols for you are not the same for everyone else and vice versa, they are all interpreted and conceptualized differently by each individual.
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Re: Patriotism

Postby WendyDarling » Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:33 pm

Like I said, it stood and stands for the military and their actions to protect this country. Too bad they have to protect cretins who spit on their efforts.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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