## Income Disparity

For discussions of culture, politics, economics, sociology, law, business and any other topic that falls under the social science remit.

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### Re: Income Disparity

Faust wrote:Alf - Your pics illustrate my point, to a degree. That 50's middle class house doesn't represent a middle class house today, in many markets. I will say this - my house is about that size, yet i am solidly middle class. The middle class has decreased in recent years, but is lately making a comeback. This depends upon just what kind of income you call middle class, of course. There is no universally accepted definition of that term. By most measures, more have moved up than down.

That's not true.

Alf

Posts: 234
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2017 12:07 am

### Re: Income Disparity

tentative wrote:
WendyDarling wrote:
The top and bottom exchange places with the middle being screwed over.

What middle? That's the problem...there is no middle.

This might be a little over the top. We are still the largest consumer society in the world. The assets to be this comes from somewhere.

If you consider yourself an informed constituent, what are you able to do to put pressure on those elected? How do you fire them for not doing the job they agreed to do? Once they are elected, once they're in...where are the checks and balances...for the people they represent?

So everyone knows that they are crooks...what then? Don't elect that crook again, but oh yeah, we have a new crop of crooks, elect them. What?

Congress needs to be held accountable, but how?

First, not every elected politician is a crook, but we have the option to vote them out of office and find someone who isn't a crook to replace them. Additionally, should they commit a crime they can be convicted and jailed. Does it happen very often? No. But is OUR fault. We put them there.

You mean vote them out, as in, end their term of service early? How will we know whether they are committing a crime if only their co-conspirators are present. Is misspending taxes a crime? Are corporate bribes (I mean campaign donations) criminal? How's about creating bills that ultimately poison or injure your constituents? Show me an upstanding politician, one who lives up to his/her word, who has made positive reforms rather than reforms that protect and expand corporate greed.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.

WendyDarling
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Posts: 6452
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:52 am

### Re: Income Disparity

Wendy -
Most poor people have a $100 5000 BTU window unit air conditioner, a 15+ years old car, and a real cheap smart phone. No central air, no newer cars, and no iphones. My household income is on the high side, but I don't have air conditioning. That's a personal choice. But air conditioning is fairly new. Living without it is possible. Now, I am not claiming that poor people shouldn't have air conditioning. What I am saying is that, for this to be a meaningful discussion, we have to be careful about comparisons. Wendy and allies have been comparing the present to the post war boom years. And only in terms of income. This is just not a serious endeavor. The general standard of living throughout society has to be examined. I think I understand that you, wendy, are living on$15,000 per year, which, again if I understand you, is your disability benefit. If that is all true and you are truly disabled, which many collecting the benefit are not, then I will say that an affluent society such as the U.S. can easily afford to provide you with a higher income. It's an insult that your benefit is so small.

Likewise, there is no reason that minimum wage cannot be higher. In constant dollars, it has been higher in the past. The economy can handle that.

You shouldn't have to pay $200 for health care. Plus copays. And I'll agree that the U.S. healthcare system is an embarrassing mess and way too expensive for everyone. But you say "No central air". And this is indicative of part of the problem - expectations. No central air. That is an issue because it's what many americans have come to expect, along with smart phones (of any type) and a whole host of luxury items as standard accoutrements of life. Because the overall standard of living in america is so high. Most poor people in the world would think of air conditioning and smart phones as magic. So the system has its flaws. But it has tremendous benefits compared to much of the world. Income disparity is not a matter of poverty per se. It's a matter of expectations. Faust Unrequited Lover of Wisdom Posts: 16726 Joined: Sat May 21, 2005 6:47 pm ### Re: Income Disparity phyllo wrote: WendyDarling wrote:How do poor people get to work if they have no car? How do they pay their bills, bank, shop without a car? Not everyone lives where there is 24/7 public transportation and last I checked that wasn't free either. The modern internal combustion automobile officially dates from 1885. How did people manage to work before that year? Buy everyone a horse for X-Mas, Phyllo. I need land, a stable, and a ten year supply of hay/oats too. I'll make my own saddle and horseshoes. I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL! I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy. Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat. WendyDarling Heroine Posts: 6452 Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:52 am Location: Hades ### Re: Income Disparity I think I understand that you, wendy, are living on$15,000 per year,

I wish.

But you say "No central air". And this is indicative of part of the problem - expectations. No central air. That is an issue because it's what many americans have come to expect, along with smart phones (of any type) and a whole host of luxury items as standard accoutrements of life. Because the overall standard of living in america is so high. Most poor people in the world would think of air conditioning and smart phones as magic.

So the system has its flaws. But it has tremendous benefits compared to much of the world. Income disparity is not a matter of poverty per se. It's a matter of expectations.

True, but I'm not a resident of the Saharan desert. I'm speaking to the country I reside in. Our welfare system is the worst of all civilized/industrialized countries.

Central air is more energy efficient than window air units so it saves poor people money to have central air and heat rather than space heaters.
Last edited by WendyDarling on Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.

WendyDarling
Heroine

Posts: 6452
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:52 am

### Re: Income Disparity

Disparity within a country is a very different issue than disparity across the world. Differing races, cultures, landscapes, and dominions greatly alter affluence.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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### Re: Income Disparity

The rich, the smug, really don't give a crap about their hard working, low income neighbors who do all the shit jobs that they would never stoop to do other than temporarily if ever at all. Why are the liberals the least affected, the least caring, when the poor are suppose to be part of their do-gooder platform?
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.

WendyDarling
Heroine

Posts: 6452
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:52 am

### Re: Income Disparity

My household income is on the high side

The high side of what? What is it?
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.

WendyDarling
Heroine

Posts: 6452
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:52 am

### Re: Income Disparity

James S Saint wrote:Disparity within a country is a very different issue than disparity across the world. Differing races, cultures, landscapes, and dominions greatly alter affluence.

The North East coast and the West coast are like separate countries within the USA.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.

WendyDarling
Heroine

Posts: 6452
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:52 am

### Re: Income Disparity

Wendy,

Please put the blame where it belongs. Congressional reps can be voted out. They can suffer a recall from their constituents. They can be sent to jail for crimes committed. Who controls this? We do. The bad representation is OUR fault. This is still a government of the people. The issue becomes one of getting the people to pay attention. This isn't a left or right issue, it is our whole society. To lean on an old saw, "We get the government we deserve".
IGAYRCCFYVM
Sorry, arguing with the ignorant is like trying to wrestle with a jellyfish. No matter how many tentacles you cut off there are always more, and there isn't even a brain to stun. - Maia

I don't take know for an answer.
tentative
.

Posts: 12361
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2004 10:14 pm
Location: Idaho

### Re: Income Disparity

tentative wrote:Wendy,

Please put the blame where it belongs. Congressional reps can be voted out. They can suffer a recall from their constituents. They can be sent to jail for crimes committed. Who controls this? We do. The bad representation is OUR fault. This is still a government of the people. The issue becomes one of getting the people to pay attention. This isn't a left or right issue, it is our whole society. To lean on an old saw, "We get the government we deserve".

Expulsion is the only way to oust them ahead of the end of their term limit. What are you talking about?

You are copping out, giving them the green light to be criminals in office, saying it is our fault that they take bribes behind closed doors. Have you taken a Quaalude? Has your rocker broken?
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.

WendyDarling
Heroine

Posts: 6452
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:52 am

### Re: Income Disparity

WendyDarling wrote:
tentative wrote:Wendy,

Please put the blame where it belongs. Congressional reps can be voted out. They can suffer a recall from their constituents. They can be sent to jail for crimes committed. Who controls this? We do. The bad representation is OUR fault. This is still a government of the people. The issue becomes one of getting the people to pay attention. This isn't a left or right issue, it is our whole society. To lean on an old saw, "We get the government we deserve".

Expulsion is the only way to oust them ahead of the end of their term limit. What are you talking about?

You are copping out, giving them the green light to be criminals in office, saying it is our fault that they take bribes behind closed doors. Have you taken a Quaalude? Has your rocker broken?

Uhh... you do know that a recall is expulsion, right?

Did I say that any of the possible remedies would be easy? Perhaps breaking all TVs or outlawing reality TV shows is the answer. It's about getting people off their dead asses and participating in their own governance. Shining the big spotlight on the bad actors and then acting (lawfully) is the correct answer. No, it doesn't happen overnight, but when the people rise up, then some sort of justice can happen.

Ludes? Did you actually say Ludes? That is so 70''s!!! I think I remember those but it was looooong ago. And yes, my rocker is broken. It broke a long time ago. It's called old age cynicism...
IGAYRCCFYVM
Sorry, arguing with the ignorant is like trying to wrestle with a jellyfish. No matter how many tentacles you cut off there are always more, and there isn't even a brain to stun. - Maia

I don't take know for an answer.
tentative
.

Posts: 12361
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2004 10:14 pm
Location: Idaho

### Re: Income Disparity

I haven't heard of it being done other than by a Congressional vote which doesn't happen all too often and no I'd never heard of a recall being called an official expulsion.

Who do you think you're talking too...a spring chicken?
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.

WendyDarling
Heroine

Posts: 6452
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:52 am

### Re: Income Disparity

WendyDarling wrote:I haven't heard of it being done other than by a Congressional vote which doesn't happen all too often and no I'd never heard of a recall being called an official expulsion.

Who do you think you're talking too...a spring chicken?

A recall only happens at the state level. A congressional vote has nothing to do with it. Congress can vote a censure (that has happened) but a recall can only come from the people who elected the crook/idiot.

Damn! I thought you were one those wet behind the ears kids. But if you remember ludes... Yeah, you're a little long in the tooth.
IGAYRCCFYVM
Sorry, arguing with the ignorant is like trying to wrestle with a jellyfish. No matter how many tentacles you cut off there are always more, and there isn't even a brain to stun. - Maia

I don't take know for an answer.
tentative
.

Posts: 12361
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2004 10:14 pm
Location: Idaho

### Re: Income Disparity

WendyDarling wrote:
phyllo wrote:
WendyDarling wrote:How do poor people get to work if they have no car? How do they pay their bills, bank, shop without a car? Not everyone lives where there is 24/7 public transportation and last I checked that wasn't free either.
The modern internal combustion automobile officially dates from 1885.

How did people manage to work before that year?

Buy everyone a horse for X-Mas, Phyllo. I need land, a stable, and a ten year supply of hay/oats too. I'll make my own saddle and horseshoes.
You do realize that poor people could not afford horses back then ... Just as poor people can't afford cars now.
phyllo
ILP Legend

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### Re: Income Disparity

That's horseshit...an old nag was totally affordable...who are you kidding?
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.

WendyDarling
Heroine

Posts: 6452
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:52 am

### Re: Income Disparity

FTS
phyllo
ILP Legend

Posts: 10225
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:41 am

### Re: Income Disparity

Tentative,
Where's a good resource to figure out how to recall those sons-o-bitches and the plain 'ole bitches? I wonder if it can be all inclusive of both houses of congress statewide in one fail swoop or separate cases for each individual? Same for governors and mayors? Is there a way to place them on the inactive roster, where they are not allowed to participate while the recall process is transpiring?
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.

WendyDarling
Heroine

Posts: 6452
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:52 am

### Re: Income Disparity

phyllo wrote:FTS
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.

WendyDarling
Heroine

Posts: 6452
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:52 am

### Re: Income Disparity

WendyDarling wrote:Tentative,
Where's a good resource to figure out how to recall those sons-o-bitches and the plain 'ole bitches? I wonder if it can be all inclusive of both houses of congress statewide in one fail swoop or separate cases for each individual? Same for governors and mayors? Is there a way to place them on the inactive roster, where they are not allowed to participate while the recall process is transpiring?

The rules and regulations for a recall effort is different for every state So, it would be one at a time. But first, you have to obtain X amount of citizens to petition for a recall. It isn't an easy task. Next, the list of petitioners have to be verified as legal. This usually takes as long as they can stall the process. After that, a referendum date for a vote has to be established. Assuming it goes that far, a congressman can be thrown out of office to be replaced by a person chosen by the governor of that state to be a representative until the next general election. The rules for recalling local officials may be different. It depends on the rules chosen by the state legislature.

Having fun yet? It is an ass pull with little chance of success. The most efficient method is through the ballot box at general election. Time, effort, and resources are better spent here.
IGAYRCCFYVM
Sorry, arguing with the ignorant is like trying to wrestle with a jellyfish. No matter how many tentacles you cut off there are always more, and there isn't even a brain to stun. - Maia

I don't take know for an answer.
tentative
.

Posts: 12361
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2004 10:14 pm
Location: Idaho

### Re: Income Disparity

I wonder if the process of petition verification can be sped up (streamlined) with technology, live recorded constituent faces acknowledging their signatures, on petition site photocopies of I.D.s, and e-signatures (recorded while happening) could enhance/speed up the process. People who have half a brain and a fire in their bellies need to attempt these things to outsmart the dirty government, beat them at their own BS game. Holes need to be blown into their ivory towers.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.

WendyDarling
Heroine

Posts: 6452
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:52 am

### Re: Income Disparity

WendyDarling wrote:I wonder if the process of petition verification can be sped up (streamlined) with technology, live recorded constituent faces acknowledging their signatures, on petition site photocopies of I.D.s, and e-signatures (recorded while happening) could enhance/speed up the process. People who have half a brain and a fire in their bellies need to attempt these things to outsmart the dirty government, beat them at their own BS game. Holes need to be blown into their ivory towers.

Everything you mentioned could be accomplished with enough assets and a software program that everyone agrees can't be tampered with. But are you sure? The people who sign any petition are putting their ass on the line. The information gathered can be misused to target potential voters in nasty ways. Stories of individuals being intimidated and receiving death threats are fairly common. The internet is anonymous. That is a two edged sword. It is best to keep big brother stupid. He already has the ability to collect more information than anyone should feel comfortable having it out there.

Perhaps you can see why I'm leery of AI and robotics. What happens when government has the means to know everything you say and do? The people most interested in AI isn't the scientists, It's the politicians and corporations who seek absolute control. We aren't completely slaves yet, but it is right on the horizon. The future could make 1984 look like kindergarten.
IGAYRCCFYVM
Sorry, arguing with the ignorant is like trying to wrestle with a jellyfish. No matter how many tentacles you cut off there are always more, and there isn't even a brain to stun. - Maia

I don't take know for an answer.
tentative
.

Posts: 12361
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2004 10:14 pm
Location: Idaho

### Re: Income Disparity

WendyDarling wrote:

Most poor people have a $100 5000 BTU window unit air conditioner, a 15+ years old car, and a real cheap smart phone. No central air, no newer cars, and no iphones. My friend, Your perception of poverty and poor people are miles away from the target. You have not seen what really poverty means. It looks to me that you consider merely absence of luxury as a sign of poverty which is not a right way of judging it. For instance, i do not have any air conditioner, any four wheeler (old or new), any central air system, any iphone and not even a LCD in my home. In spite of all that, i still do not consider myself as a poor. with love, sanjay zinnat Philosopher Posts: 3501 Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:27 pm ### Re: Income Disparity Well you have access to the internet...a luxury. Others have said that having electricity or any form of transportation other than walking is a luxury one should go without upgrades to horses, two wheelers, four wheelers. We can get all kinds of ridiculous if we compare country by country what "real poverty" is. It's dying homeless from famine naked in a snow laddened street in -20F weather during a blizzard, so you are spoiled too Zinnat. I mean really. Most Africans have it the worst...agreed? So Zinnat lives in luxury compared to the desert nomads of Africa who are running from kids with machetes. Grow up people with your misplaced finger wagging. I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL! I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy. Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat. WendyDarling Heroine Posts: 6452 Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:52 am Location: Hades ### Re: Income Disparity WendyDarling wrote:Well you have access to the internet...a luxury. Others have said that having electricity or any form of transportation other than walking is a luxury one should go without upgrades to horses, two wheelers, four wheelers. We can get all kinds of ridiculous if we compare country by country what "real poverty" is. It's dying homeless from famine naked in a snow laddened street in -20F weather during a blizzard, so you are spoiled too Zinnat. I mean really. Most Africans have it the worst...agreed? So Zinnat lives in luxury compared to the desert nomads of Africa who are running from kids with machetes. Grow up people with your misplaced finger wagging. That generally happens with young people. They get angry very easily. By the way, internet costs me merely 6$ per month, which includes unlimited sms and calls per day and 1 GB of 4G internet data daily. But yes, some people living in any remote place in Africa may call it a luxury. And, that is precisely why i said that i do not consider myself a poor.

Realize that poverty has nothing much to do with the means of living or wealth one have. You would always run into trouble if you take that as a benchmark for deciding poverty because then everyone on this earth becomes poor in the comparison of Bill Gates or Jeff Bezros so do not make it a relative issue.

To me, one becomes poor only when one cannot do or achieve most of those things in spite of one's best efforts what he/she would be able to do if the necessary means were available to him.

with love,
sanjay

zinnat
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