Poverty in America

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Re: Poverty in America

Postby tentative » Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:47 pm

WendyDarling wrote:
Faust wrote:wendy - I didn't survey them. i rely on information from our local "career center" (unemployment office). Generally, they don't mind collecting. And the training is contemporaneous with the benefits. They just don't think ahead.

I'm still over here waiting for you to share or is your answer that they just don't think ahead...whatever that means.


Wendy, I won't answer for Faust, but I want to address the not thinking ahead. Not only do many of these people not think ahead, they CAN'T think ahead. It is just one problem stacked up with the others. OK. I knew that the fucking battery in the piece of shit car was dying and I needed to get a new battery. BUT... the electric company is going to shut off my power for non-payment the last three months. My daughter (or son) has a severe ear infection and I need to get a prescription that I have no money for. Someone hands me a hundred dollars. Which problem do I solve and which ones do I let go? And this scenario is repeated ad infinitum. There is no thinking ahead. There is only careening from one crisis to another.
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Re: Poverty in America

Postby Mr Reasonable » Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:07 pm

phyllo wrote:
People fix and build things in trade jobs where they can feel pride in their efforts. These simple people will do an honest days work, they just need an honest days pay.
The current attitude is that it's better to make money trading stock than in any "honest days work". "Hard work is for chumps."



Because that's true. If you eat rice, and go without electricity for a year so that you can get some money in the bank, then your chances of being able to invest go up dramatically. People need to realize that without some income other than what the average person can earn, you wont have more money than the average person. Like when poor people spend their tax return taking the kids on vacation....if you're poor, you should put that money into a drip plan for the kids, so that maybe they can have money later on. Fuck Disney World.

Someone bought me 1 share of southern company for 5 bucks when I was a kid. I ignored it and left it there for years, until I was about 28 or so. The 5 bucks had turned into 500 or more. Several splits, and years of appreciation. Now think about what would have happened if they had put 5 more dollars each month. But they didn't. My parents were financially illiterate. But there's no excuse for that now. Anyone can read the news, anyone can open a brokerage account with no minimum, and anyone can put aside a little cash each month if they work and have some discipline. If you're drinking coca cola instead of water, and you don't have any money to save, then you're drinking your retirement and you're an idiot.
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Re: Poverty in America

Postby WendyDarling » Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:10 pm

tentative wrote:
WendyDarling wrote:
Faust wrote:wendy - I didn't survey them. i rely on information from our local "career center" (unemployment office). Generally, they don't mind collecting. And the training is contemporaneous with the benefits. They just don't think ahead.

I'm still over here waiting for you to share or is your answer that they just don't think ahead...whatever that means.


Wendy, I won't answer for Faust, but I want to address the not thinking ahead. Not only do many of these people not think ahead, they CAN'T think ahead. It is just one problem stacked up with the others. OK. I knew that the fucking battery in the piece of shit car was dying and I needed to get a new battery. BUT... the electric company is going to shut off my power for non-payment the last three months. My daughter (or son) has a severe ear infection and I need to get a prescription that I have no money for. Someone hands me a hundred dollars. Which problem do I solve and which ones do I let go? And this scenario is repeated ad infinitum. There is no thinking ahead. There is only careening from one crisis to another.


If they earned a decent wage, they wouldn't need someone to hand them $100. That's my issue, them being underpaid from the get go.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Poverty in America

Postby Mr Reasonable » Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:12 pm

Thinking ahead means that you started putting a little money in the bank years ago. Almost no one can honestly say that in the last 10 years they couldn't have put at least something away. Like I save money and deny myself some things I could otherwise have, and you don't. Then 10 years later, you want some money, so you ask the government to raise my taxes so that you can have some of what I saved. That's just immoral.
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.
Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

What exactly is logic? -Magnus Anderson

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Re: Poverty in America

Postby WendyDarling » Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:18 pm

If you eat rice, and go without electricity for a year so that you can get some money in the bank
:lol:

Less painful to sell plasma every week or so. :lol:

Anyone can read the news, anyone can open a brokerage account with no minimum, and anyone can put aside a little cash each month if they work and have some discipline.

No they can't (especially without electricity), but you are smarter than anyone (too bad less scrupulous...there's that trade-off I guess) and you were coddled with stock which most aren't. Plus, you wheel and deal...simple folks cannot effectively do that at all or on a scale that truly benefits them.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Poverty in America

Postby phyllo » Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:23 pm

Because that's true.
The only reason that a company is valuable is because it produces something. That requires that people work there and there is so sort of product coming from that work. Stock trading loses sight of that fact ... a company becomes valuable simply because people want to buy the stock ... it need not produce anything. Only picking up on the financial trends is important. Most financial instruments are now just ways for making money without making product.

The result is a society which is not based in anything tangible and it can collapse at any moment when enough people realize that there is nothing holding up the system. It's a system of paper profits.
"Only the educated are free" - Epictetus
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"Everyday life is the way" -Wumen
"Do not permit the events of your daily life to bind you, but never withdraw yourself from them" - Wumen
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Re: Poverty in America

Postby WendyDarling » Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:29 pm

The result is a society which is not based in anything tangible and it can collapse at any moment when enough people realize that there is nothing holding up the system. It's a system of paper profits.

Exactly.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Poverty in America

Postby Mr Reasonable » Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:32 pm

If you can post on ILP, you can read the news.

Coddled with $5 worth of stock? Did you read the post?
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.
Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

What exactly is logic? -Magnus Anderson

Support the innocence project on AmazonSmile instead of Turd's African savior biker dude.
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Re: Poverty in America

Postby Mr Reasonable » Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:34 pm

So Wendy, people who are able to wheel and deal should have to subsidize people who arent?

Seems like some people want the rewards but they don't want the risk.
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.
Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

What exactly is logic? -Magnus Anderson

Support the innocence project on AmazonSmile instead of Turd's African savior biker dude.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/
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Re: Poverty in America

Postby tentative » Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:47 pm

Wendy, I won't answer for Faust, but I want to address the not thinking ahead. Not only do many of these people not think ahead, they CAN'T think ahead. It is just one problem stacked up with the others. OK. I knew that the fucking battery in the piece of shit car was dying and I needed to get a new battery. BUT... the electric company is going to shut off my power for non-payment the last three months. My daughter (or son) has a severe ear infection and I need to get a prescription that I have no money for. Someone hands me a hundred dollars. Which problem do I solve and which ones do I let go? And this scenario is repeated ad infinitum. There is no thinking ahead. There is only careening from one crisis to another.[/quote]

If they earned a decent wage, they wouldn't need someone to hand them $100. That's my issue, them being underpaid from the get go.[/quote]

I don't think it's that easy. Without some education and discipline, it wouldn't make any difference if they were given a thousand dollars or making a so-called living wage. Within a very short period of time they would make the bad decisions that put them in the poor category in the first place. Not all of them, there are many who are downtrodden through no fault of their own, but the vast majority would and will remain poor no matter what we do.
IGAYRCCFYVM
Sorry, arguing with the ignorant is like trying to wrestle with a jellyfish. No matter how many tentacles you cut off there are always more, and there isn't even a brain to stun. - Maia

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Re: Poverty in America

Postby Mr Reasonable » Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:51 pm

Like people who get insurance settlements and spend the money and go right back into debt instead of paying off what they owe. I can't tell you how many times I've seen someone get money, and immediately dispose of it without doing a thing to ensure they can benefit from it long term.
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.
Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

What exactly is logic? -Magnus Anderson

Support the innocence project on AmazonSmile instead of Turd's African savior biker dude.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/
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Re: Poverty in America

Postby WendyDarling » Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:29 pm

tentative wrote:Wendy, I won't answer for Faust, but I want to address the not thinking ahead. Not only do many of these people not think ahead, they CAN'T think ahead. It is just one problem stacked up with the others. OK. I knew that the fucking battery in the piece of shit car was dying and I needed to get a new battery. BUT... the electric company is going to shut off my power for non-payment the last three months. My daughter (or son) has a severe ear infection and I need to get a prescription that I have no money for. Someone hands me a hundred dollars. Which problem do I solve and which ones do I let go? And this scenario is repeated ad infinitum. There is no thinking ahead. There is only careening from one crisis to another.


If they earned a decent wage, they wouldn't need someone to hand them $100. That's my issue, them being underpaid from the get go.


I don't think it's that easy. Without some education and discipline, it wouldn't make any difference if they were given a thousand dollars or making a so-called living wage. Within a very short period of time they would make the bad decisions that put them in the poor category in the first place. Not all of them, there are many who are downtrodden through no fault of their own, but the vast majority would and will remain poor no matter what we do.

So that's it? Don't pay them for their work because they will misspend it anyway? What? They are doing there part at their jobs, they deserve to be paid a decent wage for it. End of story. The companies are making the money in profits, they need to pay their workers. End of story. Why is this so hard for you boys to understand?
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Poverty in America

Postby WendyDarling » Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:51 pm

Who wants to lobby with me to have the minimum wage be $20, allowing all hard working, full-timers to earn over $35,000?

$35,000 is what a single person needs to live a decent lower class life in most areas of the country. Of course, technical jobs, jobs dealing in trust (ex. money intake), dangerous jobs, and disgusting jobs would pay better.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Poverty in America

Postby phyllo » Sat Sep 16, 2017 8:01 pm

WendyDarling wrote:Who wants to lobby with me to have the minimum wage be $20, allowing all hard working, full-timers to earn over $35,000?

$35,000 is what a single person needs to live a decent lower class life in most areas of the country. Of course, technical jobs, jobs dealing in trust (ex. money intake), dangerous jobs, and disgusting jobs would pay better.
All that would happen is that prices would rise and their money would be sucked out of their pockets leaving them again in the hole.

You can't solve the problem just by throwing more money at it.
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"Everyday life is the way" -Wumen
"Do not permit the events of your daily life to bind you, but never withdraw yourself from them" - Wumen
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Re: Poverty in America

Postby WendyDarling » Sat Sep 16, 2017 8:10 pm

Then mass revolts, strikes, are the only solution for 60-70% of the labor force. What would you suggest to eliminate greed? How do you re-educate humans to go without six cars, two boats, three homes, $500,000 in jewelry, etc., etc.? To survive with less than $10 mil in assets? How do you replace their material goods with a good soul?

When people hit an income of $250,000 a year they seem to quickly lose touch with reality. Sure, the more you earn, the more you spend, but why are you spending it all on yourself? What is the need that compels people to become shallow? To live a material life rather than a spiritual life? I don't get it, I really don't. Crap, I'm ranting.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Poverty in America

Postby Alf » Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:16 pm

I'm not poor, I'm not very rich.

Many former middle class people have become lower class people. The middle class has decreased, the lower class has increased.

The United States have one of the developed world's largest income gap between rich and poor.
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Re: Poverty in America

Postby phyllo » Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:26 pm

What would you suggest to eliminate greed?
I don't suggest that it be eliminated at all. It's a fact of life that we need to work around. Revolutions do not get rid of greed.
How do you re-educate humans to go without six cars, two boats, three homes, $500,000 in jewelry, etc., etc.? To survive with less than $10 mil in assets?
That's a small group.

As I said, there has to be a shift from the philosophy of instant gratification. And that applies to everyone in every class. It's not just one class that has to be "fixed". Everyone has to be part of the solution.
How do you replace their material goods with a good soul?
There is a decline in returns once a certain level of affluence is reached. I think that a lot of them feel the emptiness of material wealth. Yet, the marketing message keeps droning on : "you just need to get this and you will be happy".
When people hit an income of $250,000 a year they seem to quickly lose touch with reality. Sure, the more you earn, the more you spend, but why are you spending it all on yourself? What is the need that compels people to become shallow?
I doubt that the rich are more shallow than the poor. The poor also spend their money selfishly.

As Sherlock Holmes said : "The lowest and vilest alleys in London do not present a more dreadful record of sin than does the smiling and beautiful countryside."
"Only the educated are free" - Epictetus
"Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy" -Beethoven
"Everyday life is the way" -Wumen
"Do not permit the events of your daily life to bind you, but never withdraw yourself from them" - Wumen
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Re: Poverty in America

Postby phyllo » Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:34 pm

The United States have one of the developed world's largest income gap between rich and poor.
That's certainly a cause for discontent.
"Only the educated are free" - Epictetus
"Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy" -Beethoven
"Everyday life is the way" -Wumen
"Do not permit the events of your daily life to bind you, but never withdraw yourself from them" - Wumen
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Re: Poverty in America

Postby Kathrina » Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:21 pm

phyllo wrote:
The United States have one of the developed world's largest income gap between rich and poor.

That's certainly a cause for discontent.

That's a reason for riots!
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Re: Poverty in America

Postby tentative » Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:34 pm

Kathrina wrote:
phyllo wrote:
The United States have one of the developed world's largest income gap between rich and poor.

That's certainly a cause for discontent.

That's a reason for riots!
ImageImage


OK, but don't you dare burn down my Starbucks!
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Re: Poverty in America

Postby WendyDarling » Sun Sep 17, 2017 12:26 am

Mr Reasonable wrote:If you can post on ILP, you can read the news.

Coddled with $5 worth of stock? Did you read the post?

With no electricity, no phone/laptop charging, no phone, no internet, no ILP, no news. :-? No, no, no. :evilfun:
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Poverty in America

Postby Alf » Sun Sep 17, 2017 3:02 am

Kathrina wrote:
phyllo wrote:
The United States have one of the developed world's largest income gap between rich and poor.

That's certainly a cause for discontent.

That's a reason for riots!
ImageImage

I know that catastrophes bring new starts. But in the case of our globalism, the catastophe needs to be a global one, highly likely.
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Re: Poverty in America

Postby A Shieldmaiden » Sun Sep 17, 2017 10:09 am

Wendy wrote:
Getting a job is not the problem, being able to afford living expenses and the occasional catastrophe are.


Wendy, I agree with everything you have written.

If people think the poor enjoy their existence, let those people change places with a poor person for a week, perhaps sleep on the street in winter time, not eat regular nutritious meals, not have a place that is safe to go to, not have medical or dental attention or a sense of purpose. It takes more than the minimum wage to live adequately in this day and age.

Poverty is a dark place, where nobody willingly goes.
The man that walks his own road, walks alone

Old Norse Proverb
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Re: Poverty in America

Postby WendyDarling » Sun Sep 17, 2017 3:28 pm

phyllo wrote:
What would you suggest to eliminate greed?
I don't suggest that it be eliminated at all. It's a fact of life that we need to work around. Revolutions do not get rid of greed.
How do you re-educate humans to go without six cars, two boats, three homes, $500,000 in jewelry, etc., etc.? To survive with less than $10 mil in assets?
That's a small group. A small group who owns most of the wealth, that group needs to go bye and bye.

As I said, there has to be a shift from the philosophy of instant gratification. And that applies to everyone in every class. It's not just one class that has to be "fixed". Everyone has to be part of the solution. The rich are greedy...plain and simple. Simple-minded people cannot be fixed, but greed can be fixed. No one wants their charity, the bandaid on their guilt...they need to only take their share and not everyone elses.
How do you replace their material goods with a good soul?
There is a decline in returns once a certain level of affluence is reached. I think that a lot of them feel the emptiness of material wealth. Yet, the marketing message keeps droning on : "you just need to get this and you will be happy".
When people hit an income of $250,000 a year they seem to quickly lose touch with reality. Sure, the more you earn, the more you spend, but why are you spending it all on yourself? What is the need that compels people to become shallow?
I doubt that the rich are more shallow than the poor. The poor also spend their money selfishly. Okay, these two sentences makes me chuckle. The rich are infinitely more shallow in their very belief that what they do is not selfish, in their condescension towards a modest, hardworking, simple individual and his life choices, etc. Yes, having a used car to get to work is as selfish as having a different $100,000 car for everyday of the week to go shopping for luxury items. What? The poor don't have enough money to survive let alone be frivolously selfish.

As Sherlock Holmes said : "The lowest and vilest alleys in London do not present a more dreadful record of sin than does the smiling and beautiful countryside."

Yes, they do and they are a much smaller area to have such high records of sin.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Poverty in America

Postby tentative » Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:51 pm

It is obvious that most of those who have posted here have a pretty good idea of what poverty means. There are a few differences, but in the main... I re-read all of the posts, sifting through all the bitching, moaning, and complaining looking for one thing: SOLUTIONS. Short of burning the whole fucking world down, where are the solutions? Either we come up with plausible workable solutions or this thread is like so many others. Blah blah blah, blather blather...

What is a solution? It isn't "We should do this". A viable solution addresses not only what, but HOW, WHEN, WHERE, replete with concise definitions of what is intended. Hard work? Painful thinking it through? Damn betcha. That is the challenge.

I apologize to those who only posted here to rant and have no interest in actually acting on their convictions.
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