Poverty in America

For discussions of culture, politics, economics, sociology, law, business and any other topic that falls under the social science remit.

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Re: Poverty in America

A viable solution addresses not only what, but HOW, WHEN, WHERE, replete with concise definitions of what is intended.

I'm not sure what you are asking for Tentative? Study history and sociology for a shift, a time-line that can be pointed out, tracked, and correlated to today's income disparity looking for what went terribly wrong, then define that? You are confusing me!

If my suggestions below are missing your mark, you're going to have to get us started.

Wendy's hard workers union USA (has a certain ring to it) for all full-time working citizens, the little guys and gals who earn under $40,000 a year are organized and represented in the government, at their worksites, in the media/public platforms to earn a living wage of$20.84.

Research labor laws for every state (they would need to be unified)
Research corporate laws that favor the industry over the worker
Get rid of government regulations that hurt both the industry and the workers, except in cases of safety practices, workplace safety/product safety/public safety

Slogan: An honest days work for an honest days pay. Old school, but effectively true today.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.

WendyDarling
Heroine

Posts: 6637
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:52 am

Re: Poverty in America

WendyDarling wrote:
A viable solution addresses not only what, but HOW, WHEN, WHERE, replete with concise definitions of what is intended.

I'm not sure what you are asking for Tentative? Study history and sociology for a shift, a time-line that can be pointed out, tracked, and correlated to today's income disparity looking for what went terribly wrong, then define that? You are confusing me!

If my suggestions below are missing your mark, you're going to have to get us started.

Wendy's hard workers union USA (has a certain ring to it) for all full-time working citizens, the little guys and gals who earn under $40,000 a year are organized and represented in the government, at their worksites, in the media/public platforms to earn a living wage of$20.84.

Research labor laws for every state (they would need to be unified)
Research corporate laws that favor the industry over the worker
Get rid of government regulations that hurt both the industry and the workers, except in cases of safety practices, workplace safety/product safety/public safety

Slogan: An honest days work for an honest days pay. Old school, but effectively true today.

Wendy, We might have differences on what could or should be done, but that isn't the point. What IS the point is where do people sign up? I'm all for a union of whatever makeup, but "viable" means something is happening beyond just yammering about it. Isn't it time to get beyond wisecracks coming from the peanut gallery? Where is the buy in? Is there any commitment to actually act on our beloved principles? Can you see that without actionable planning and execution, this thread (like most of 'em) reads like condescending voyeurism. Oooh, there is a big problem! and it's being caused by those other people! It makes me feel so good to point this out. BULLSHIT! Who is willing to put their ass on the line and begin doing something about it?

And that was the point I was trying to make. Sorry if it was confusing. Eloquence isn't my strong suit.
IGAYRCCFYVM
Sorry, arguing with the ignorant is like trying to wrestle with a jellyfish. No matter how many tentacles you cut off there are always more, and there isn't even a brain to stun. - Maia

I don't take know for an answer.
tentative
.

Posts: 12361
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Location: Idaho

Re: Poverty in America

I am motivated to act, but I'd like to make my actions count, so how do we organize a gameplan, a feasible gameplan that would yield positive results. What's the first step? I know...try out making an ILP user's group where we could all meet to discuss the options.
Last edited by WendyDarling on Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.

WendyDarling
Heroine

Posts: 6637
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:52 am

Re: Poverty in America

tentative wrote:It is obvious that most of those who have posted here have a pretty good idea of what poverty means. There are a few differences, but in the main... I re-read all of the posts, sifting through all the bitching, moaning, and complaining looking for one thing: SOLUTIONS. Short of burning the whole fucking world down, where are the solutions? Either we come up with plausible workable solutions or this thread is like so many others. Blah blah blah, blather blather...

What is a solution? It isn't "We should do this". A viable solution addresses not only what, but HOW, WHEN, WHERE, replete with concise definitions of what is intended.

You obviously have not or not carefully read those posts you are talking about.

A catastrophe is a solution. It's no good solution, I know, but it is a solution. Ask geologists if you don't believe me.

Alf wrote:
Kathrina wrote:
phyllo wrote:That's certainly a cause for discontent.

That's a reason for riots!

I know that catastrophes bring new starts. But in the case of our globalism, the catastophe needs to be a global one, highly likely.

I am not saying that I prefer a catastrophe as a solution. I am only saying that a catastrophe is a solution. You have asked for solutions, I have answered with an example, Now, stop bitching, moaning, complaining, whining.

Also: Where are your promised solutions? Do you have any solution at all?

Alf

Posts: 234
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2017 12:07 am

Re: Poverty in America

Mission statement
Website with forum
GoFundMe account or similar
P.O. Box
Bank Account
Slogan with meme pics
Volunteer Conference with guest speakers
Office space and utilities headquarters, by state, by region
Public Meetings
Endorsements
Expense accounts for travel
Lobbying for bills
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.

WendyDarling
Heroine

Posts: 6637
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:52 am

Re: Poverty in America

Mr R wrote:

My parents were financially illiterate.

That really is the crux of the matter for a vast majority of people.

I think schools should have a compulsory subject teaching kids to save and budget money in order to learn how establish themselves financially.

I would not recommend the stock market for most as not everyone is a winner and the motto is you have to be able to 'afford a loss' to play the game.

Foster a respect for money, not a love of money and understand your income.
The man that walks his own road, walks alone

Old Norse Proverb

A Shieldmaiden
Philosopher

Posts: 1917
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Re: Poverty in America

I don't think everyone should actively trade, but I do think everyone should actively contribute to savings and there are plenty of good buy and hold strategies that are known to pay off over time and to minimize risk.
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.
Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

What exactly is logic? -Magnus Anderson

Support the innocence project on AmazonSmile instead of Turd's African savior biker dude.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/

Mr Reasonable
resident contrarian

Posts: 24949
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Re: Poverty in America

Mr Reasonable wrote:I don't think everyone should actively trade, but I do think everyone should actively contribute to savings and there are plenty of good buy and hold strategies that are known to pay off over time and to minimize risk.

Are you trying to start up a hedge fund? You read like an ad in Fortune magazine.

You could always get a Starbucks franchise. There must be at least one street corner available.
IGAYRCCFYVM
Sorry, arguing with the ignorant is like trying to wrestle with a jellyfish. No matter how many tentacles you cut off there are always more, and there isn't even a brain to stun. - Maia

I don't take know for an answer.
tentative
.

Posts: 12361
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2004 10:14 pm
Location: Idaho

Re: Poverty in America

Faust wrote:I work for a small city in the U. S. I meet a fair number of poor people through my job. Many are on drugs. Some are mentally ill. Most have a debilitating reliance on anything or anyone but themselves. Many assume that the government will and should take care of their everyday needs, often because they have no friends or no friends with any kind of resources. Their families have sometimes disowned them - not because they are poor but because they are drug addicts and/or criminals.

I heard a story yesterday. There is a very successful restaurant in town. The wife of one of the owners cleans dorm rooms at a local college. Financially, she doesn't have to work at all. She loves her job. My guess is that health insurance is a major reason she works, but she and her husband would be fine if she didn't work at all or if she worked in the restaurant. They are both immigrants to this country.

I have known few poor people who could not clean dorm rooms for a living. One big problem that these poor people seem to have is that they find it difficult to pass background checks, for employment or for housing. They won't usually bother to apply for a job that requires a drug test. I know landlords that can overlook one eviction. But multiple evictions and a rap sheet makes it difficult. So one reason they live in unsafe and unacceptable apartments is that decent landlords won't rent to them. It's not really the amount of rent charged.

Overall, in my experience, a great many people who are poor are not poor because of government policies. They are poor because they have not, for a variety of reasons, made the choices that will allow them to escape poverty - or to have avoided it. They are not all born poor. Most of the poor people I encounter are white. That's just due to the demographics where I work.

There are some government policies that produce programs to help these people. few have any positive effect in the long run. That's because there doesn't seem to be much in the way of policies that change the way these people think and the decisions they make.

What policies would work?

Hello Faust
I think that government can enhance the opportunities the poor have to make it out of this condition by providing clinics to help with addiction, provide counseling, education, and perhaps for a few that show promise, temporary addresses. I know that's a lot for a "clinic", so we can call it a "Kushner-clinic". Another thing they could do to improve is to enforce minimum standards for housing, just as they do for restaurants. Landlords can sometimes get away with anything, and like you said, where money is not the issue, then there is no excuse. Even if you, as a landlord, take in the desperate and give them a roof does not mean that you get to define what a "roof" actually is. Now this could lead to some landlords going out of business, taking away the chance of the poor to have any sort of "roof", by whomever's definition, but if the roof is such that it becomes a prison, or worse their grave, then this is better in the end.
omar
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Location: Where Crocs thrive

Re: Poverty in America

Omar,

You're right. Any sort of help clinic almost has to become a "community" in itself because those in need have all sorts of problems, not just one. The best clinics link up with as many "helpers" as possible. They need doctors, lawyers, auto mechanics, every specialty out there.

One of the problems for the "slum lords" is that the people they shelter must leave their roof in the same or better condition when they moved in. Landlords often have to completely redo an apartment that was trashed by the last occupants and that costs money. This is a problem not only in the cities but in the smallest towns and villages everywhere in the country. There needs to be accountability on the part of the landlord and tenant alike.
IGAYRCCFYVM
Sorry, arguing with the ignorant is like trying to wrestle with a jellyfish. No matter how many tentacles you cut off there are always more, and there isn't even a brain to stun. - Maia

I don't take know for an answer.
tentative
.

Posts: 12361
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2004 10:14 pm
Location: Idaho

Re: Poverty in America

The tenants accountability is called a security deposit. What is the landlords accountability called?
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.

WendyDarling
Heroine

Posts: 6637
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:52 am

Re: Poverty in America

Highbrow piety vs Insidious reality.

WendyDarling wrote:What is the landlords accountability called?

"Profit".
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend

Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Poverty in America

James S Saint wrote:Highbrow piety vs Insidious reality.

WendyDarling wrote:What is the landlords accountability called?

"Profit".

Profit which should be held in an interest accruing account until the tenant moves out and the city inspects the condition of the place to see who gets the security deposit and who gets the profit, tenant, landlord, or city fines.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.

WendyDarling
Heroine

Posts: 6637
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:52 am

Re: Poverty in America

Landlord tenant act dramatically favors the tenant already. Thats why housing costs so much.
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.
Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

What exactly is logic? -Magnus Anderson

Support the innocence project on AmazonSmile instead of Turd's African savior biker dude.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/

Mr Reasonable
resident contrarian

Posts: 24949
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:54 am
Location: pimping a hole straight through the stratosphere itself

Re: Poverty in America

WendyDarling wrote:
James S Saint wrote:Highbrow piety vs Insidious reality.

WendyDarling wrote:What is the landlords accountability called?

"Profit".

Profit which should be held in an interest accruing account until the tenant moves out and the city inspects the condition of the place to see who gets the security deposit and who gets the profit, tenant, landlord, or city fines.

The current USA judiciary policy favors the lowest level of adjudication possible for all events. That means until necessary to do otherwise, those controlled by taxation and/or licenses are handed the responsibility of making lower level authority decisions and maintaining order.

That is how extreme liberal racism and other agendas become the norm. It is also how some \$500,000,000 HUD funds disappeared under Obama's watch.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend

Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Poverty in America

tentative wrote:Omar,

You're right. Any sort of help clinic almost has to become a "community" in itself because those in need have all sorts of problems, not just one. The best clinics link up with as many "helpers" as possible. They need doctors, lawyers, auto mechanics, every specialty out there.

One of the problems for the "slum lords" is that the people they shelter must leave their roof in the same or better condition when they moved in. Landlords often have to completely redo an apartment that was trashed by the last occupants and that costs money. This is a problem not only in the cities but in the smallest towns and villages everywhere in the country. There needs to be accountability on the part of the landlord and tenant alike.

I have rented apartments for the past 29 years in FL, VA, ME, NY, TX, and GA. In that time I have seen the best (TX) and the worst (NY) there is out there. There is a tendency, in my experience, that when people are given deteriorated stuff, suitable for the garbage bin, then they take no ownership, no pride, which then promotes even more deterioration. New stuff tends to be treated a little bit better. I think that one of the ways that govt can serve the poor is to co-op, in some way target their contributions, organizations involved in community projects.
I think that the leasing system is geared to weed out such abusers- people that trash an apartment will get a bad-recommendations, which is asked by the next landlord, and so maybe they can do it once, or twice but eventually no one will rent them shit. It is like credit and in fact nowdays leasing is also determined by your credit history. The same kind of protections are not there for the resident. You do not know what this person has done or will do to you in a time of need. If they have a problem, then YOU are asked for patience, but if if you have a problem, oh, there are fees for that. Like the House, they never lose. It is so unfair that they arbitrarily determine fees. Early termination? That will be three months rent.

But I guess that is veering off topic. I get what Faust is saying. Sometimes it seems that you can take the horse to the water but you cannot make the horse drink the water. But we really, really have to be careful and not lay blame on the poor. Society encourages segregation, based on color, based on class, sex, pick other categories if you like. Because of this opportunity sometimes falls on communities which, through systemic oppression, pass in the eyes of other as unwilling or incapable of profiting from the "charity" laid on them. Others cannot contemplate a new career- Can't teach an old dog new tricks-- but this all depends on the valuations made by each person. Most of us value this religion of improving, and we look at another person's life and find it wanting-- by our standards. A new career might pay the bills but it might not be what a person wants for herself for their own standards and reasons which we might not understand.

This is why I believe that community centers have to be able to listen to people and find out how the system can help individuals as much as they can do to the community. Not every government initiative will have a direct impact-- cause and effect easily defined-- but nonetheless improving healthcare, treating addiction, insisting on a GED, improving infrastructure, modernizing our penal code which is the source of sooooooooooo much poverty, all of these among others, would be the result of government action and could improve persistent poverty.
omar
Philosopher

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Location: Where Crocs thrive

Re: Poverty in America

omar wrote:
tentative wrote:Omar,

You're right. Any sort of help clinic almost has to become a "community" in itself because those in need have all sorts of problems, not just one. The best clinics link up with as many "helpers" as possible. They need doctors, lawyers, auto mechanics, every specialty out there.

One of the problems for the "slum lords" is that the people they shelter must leave their roof in the same or better condition when they moved in. Landlords often have to completely redo an apartment that was trashed by the last occupants and that costs money. This is a problem not only in the cities but in the smallest towns and villages everywhere in the country. There needs to be accountability on the part of the landlord and tenant alike.

I have rented apartments for the past 29 years in FL, VA, ME, NY, TX, and GA. In that time I have seen the best (TX) and the worst (NY) there is out there. There is a tendency, in my experience, that when people are given deteriorated stuff, suitable for the garbage bin, then they take no ownership, no pride, which then promotes even more deterioration. New stuff tends to be treated a little bit better. I think that one of the ways that govt can serve the poor is to co-op, in some way target their contributions, organizations involved in community projects.
I think that the leasing system is geared to weed out such abusers- people that trash an apartment will get a bad-recommendations, which is asked by the next landlord, and so maybe they can do it once, or twice but eventually no one will rent them shit. It is like credit and in fact nowdays leasing is also determined by your credit history. The same kind of protections are not there for the resident. You do not know what this person has done or will do to you in a time of need. If they have a problem, then YOU are asked for patience, but if if you have a problem, oh, there are fees for that. Like the House, they never lose. It is so unfair that they arbitrarily determine fees. Early termination? That will be three months rent.

But I guess that is veering off topic. I get what Faust is saying. Sometimes it seems that you can take the horse to the water but you cannot make the horse drink the water. But we really, really have to be careful and not lay blame on the poor. Society encourages segregation, based on color, based on class, sex, pick other categories if you like. Because of this opportunity sometimes falls on communities which, through systemic oppression, pass in the eyes of other as unwilling or incapable of profiting from the "charity" laid on them. Others cannot contemplate a new career- Can't teach an old dog new tricks-- but this all depends on the valuations made by each person. Most of us value this religion of improving, and we look at another person's life and find it wanting-- by our standards. A new career might pay the bills but it might not be what a person wants for herself for their own standards and reasons which we might not understand.

This is why I believe that community centers have to be able to listen to people and find out how the system can help individuals as much as they can do to the community. Not every government initiative will have a direct impact-- cause and effect easily defined-- but nonetheless improving healthcare, treating addiction, insisting on a GED, improving infrastructure, modernizing our penal code which is the source of sooooooooooo much poverty, all of these among others, would be the result of government action and could improve persistent poverty.

As long as we are speaking anecdotally, I will chip in my experience. In a previous career I was in a position to assess entire segments of real-estate portfolios. Part of this role was to enter residential spaces and perform various assessments that invariably included very up-close and personal introductions to people's contents and living conditions, and also glimpse of their lifestyles. I can concur with the point regarding people taking care of things if they are new vs. old however, quite often this was not the case. In fact, in many cases, if living conditions were initially improved by a move into better accommodations, the conditions quickly deteriorated to similar to those they had left. Similarly but more concerning, was the frequency to which I entered fairly new, modern subsidized housing complexes and encountered some of the worst living conditions I have seen. In these cases, I can only surmise that they take no ownership or pride because they have even less accountability encouraged by means of subsidized rent. This is based on seeing almost every combination of income vs living conditions imaginable.
Inconvenient Reality

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Re: Poverty in America

Omar & IR,

Very thoughtful posts. Thank you. What you posted simply highlights the fact that what is poverty is far more complex than what fits on a bumper sticker slogan. It is sad that those who try to help are simply overwhelmed with the complexity and so much of their efforts are submarined by "issues" that they cannot control.

I didn't intend to derail the thread by focusing on land lord - tenant problems as some major poverty issue. It is just one problem among many. But perhaps the solution is one that Faust kinda sorta referenced. It was about the lack of buy in. If more tenants were offered ways and means to BUY their living spaces, then pride in ownership might begin to lessen the problem. Dunno, but it might be worth a shot. Back to complexity: The banks, realtors, lenders both government and others would have to get together and come up with a workable program. I won't hold my breath waiting, but it seems like a plausible answer.
IGAYRCCFYVM
Sorry, arguing with the ignorant is like trying to wrestle with a jellyfish. No matter how many tentacles you cut off there are always more, and there isn't even a brain to stun. - Maia

I don't take know for an answer.
tentative
.

Posts: 12361
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2004 10:14 pm
Location: Idaho

Re: Poverty in America

Back to complexity: The banks, realtors, lenders both government and others would have to get together and come up with a workable program.

What is a workable program for folks who haven't the income to sustain their living environment?
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.

WendyDarling
Heroine

Posts: 6637
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:52 am

Re: Poverty in America

WendyDarling wrote:
Back to complexity: The banks, realtors, lenders both government and others would have to get together and come up with a workable program.

What is a workable program for folks who haven't the income to sustain their living environment?

All his proposed "solutions" are as old as the industrial modernity itself. They don't work in the long run. Even Keynes & Co. knew this, but thought that debt was nonetheless the best "solution". But it is an error too. It's something like communistic capitalism and similar to capitalistic communism: an unworkable program, at least in the long run.

He and the other "liberals" don't know or don't want to admit that they can't provide a workable program for those cases you mentioned, which means in the long run that they can't provide a workable program for all.

And they always have excuses. This time it is "complexity", "... those who try to help are simply overwhelmed with the complexity and so much of their efforts are submarined by 'issues' that they cannot control." ... and so on and so forth.

Do they know what a computer program is and what a computer modelling means?

:lol:

Alf

Posts: 234
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2017 12:07 am

Re: Poverty in America

The serving purpose of both debt and poverty is socialist confinement and control.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend

Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Poverty in America

Hello Inconvenient

As long as we are speaking anecdotally, I will chip in my experience. In a previous career I was in a position to assess entire segments of real-estate portfolios. Part of this role was to enter residential spaces and perform various assessments that invariably included very up-close and personal introductions to people's contents and living conditions, and also glimpse of their lifestyles. I can concur with the point regarding people taking care of things if they are new vs. old however, quite often this was not the case. In fact, in many cases, if living conditions were initially improved by a move into better accommodations, the conditions quickly deteriorated to similar to those they had left. Similarly but more concerning, was the frequency to which I entered fairly new, modern subsidized housing complexes and encountered some of the worst living conditions I have seen. In these cases, I can only surmise that they take no ownership or pride because they have even less accountability encouraged by means of subsidized rent. This is based on seeing almost every combination of income vs living conditions imaginable.

Cant say much about subsidized renters, but when I was in Miami I remember seeing a very good looking apartment tower next to I-95. When I asked about availability I found out that these were subsidized apartments. Brand new construction subsidized by govt, saving which were supposed to be extended to renters of modest income. It was not that old, but it was fairly well kept. I am sure that there are some that will trash a place no matter what, but that has probably little to do with their means and more with their character, for I have seen apartments trashed by people of means (relative to the other group). In my experience in Miami, I can tell you that leases impose quite a bit of restrictions when the administrations is spending money keeping the place up to standard. For example, the condition of your window shades, what you are allowed to keep in the balcony, is regulated by the lease agreement. Subsidized rent is not necessarily equal to less accountability, specially when such well kept buildings often carry a waiting list for approved applicants.
omar
Philosopher

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Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2005 2:52 am
Location: Where Crocs thrive

Re: Poverty in America

Hello tentative

If more tenants were offered ways and means to BUY their living spaces, then pride in ownership might begin to lessen the problem. Dunno, but it might be worth a shot. Back to complexity: The banks, realtors, lenders both government and others would have to get together and come up with a workable program. I won't hold my breath waiting, but it seems like a plausible answer.

That is a very interesting idea. In Spain the have something like that. But I think that there is no guarantee that people will not let the deterioration of their life become reflected in the deterioration of their homes. I think that is another reason why the communal clinic is so important because without working out the issues someones has (lack of education, two, three jobs, single parents, depression, substance abuse) society cannot hold them that accountable to maintaining the house. A nice home is not a cure (as you said, this issue is complicated), but I think that it is one of the ingredients to be added.
omar
Philosopher

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Re: Poverty in America

WendyDarling wrote:
Back to complexity: The banks, realtors, lenders both government and others would have to get together and come up with a workable program.

What is a workable program for folks who haven't the income to sustain their living environment?

Wendy,

All solutions have to be local. The one size fits all solutions rarely succeed. The reason I don't offer specific "solutions" is because I only know the problems to be solved in my area, my neighborhood, and the very specific issues faced by any individual. Sure, I can paint with a 5" house brush, "I know how to save the world". But that is arrogant stupidity and we've all seen the failures of those so-called workable programs.

Sooo... What is workable? It literally takes one-on-one involvement between the helper and helpee. When I know ALL the problems you face then I can work toward helping you solve those problems. The rest is finding the helpers that can connect assets to the very specific problems. For instance, you don't have a job? Then the solution is finding a job that is commensurate with your abilities. Oops. It may be more complex than that. You have a lack of income because in order to work a job you have to spend too much on child care for your three children. OR...There is a drug problem in the family that sucks up all available money. OR... the list can be very long. But never lose sight that any workable program is local, close up, and personal.

I realize that there is little satisfaction in what I've written here because it involves a shitload of hard work on everbodys part if anyones life is to be made "better". I'm not willing to toss out generalizations because I've seen too many failures of those kinds of solutions. Keep it local, keep it personal.
IGAYRCCFYVM
Sorry, arguing with the ignorant is like trying to wrestle with a jellyfish. No matter how many tentacles you cut off there are always more, and there isn't even a brain to stun. - Maia

I don't take know for an answer.
tentative
.

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Re: Poverty in America

omar wrote:Hello tentative

If more tenants were offered ways and means to BUY their living spaces, then pride in ownership might begin to lessen the problem. Dunno, but it might be worth a shot. Back to complexity: The banks, realtors, lenders both government and others would have to get together and come up with a workable program. I won't hold my breath waiting, but it seems like a plausible answer.

That is a very interesting idea. In Spain the have something like that. But I think that there is no guarantee that people will not let the deterioration of their life become reflected in the deterioration of their homes. I think that is another reason why the communal clinic is so important because without working out the issues someones has (lack of education, two, three jobs, single parents, depression, substance abuse) society cannot hold them that accountable to maintaining the house. A nice home is not a cure (as you said, this issue is complicated), but I think that it is one of the ingredients to be added.

The very first step in solving any problem is in seeing and understanding all the constituent parts of that problem. Hence, complexity. Whether it is having a nice living space, reliable transportation, adequate health care, Twinkies for breakfast, all the whatevers, these things can be provided if everyone does the hard work of finding the specific solutions. But as you suggest, there will be failures - lots of them. Why? Because of the sheer complexity of each individual life. Helpers can't be expected to do everything or even know what some of the potential problems might be. At best, everyone does what they can do. But having a nice place to live certainly helps, if nothing but showing that living conditions CAN be better and perhaps other problems can be solved as well.
IGAYRCCFYVM
Sorry, arguing with the ignorant is like trying to wrestle with a jellyfish. No matter how many tentacles you cut off there are always more, and there isn't even a brain to stun. - Maia

I don't take know for an answer.
tentative
.

Posts: 12361
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2004 10:14 pm
Location: Idaho

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