chaos

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chaos

Postby fuse » Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:19 am

1:00:30 wrote:And so, Pinocchio, it's a very interesting movie, I could tell you what its fundamental presupposition is, I'll just guide you through it very, very rapidly. So, at the beginning of the movie, Gipedo, who's the archetype of the good father, by the way, which is an archetype that we've forgotten about but does exist because our culture isn't just a tyrannical patriarchy, as you can tell by the fact that we're warm and comfortable and we're not tearing each other to shreds at the moment, which is what you do in a state of absolute chaos, right? It's mayhem while you're freezing and starving. Right. And that isn't what we have. We have peace. And it's rare. And it's amazing that we have it. But we shouldn't take it for granted. Because it's not the normal order of things. The normal order of things is destructive chaos. And if you're fortunate enough to live somewhere that's peaceful and productive, you should thank your lucky stars every second of your life. And if you don't do that all it means is that you don't know anything about history and you know nothing about human beings. Because things can get absolutely monstrous and it happens all the time. And there's always a fraction of the population who thinks that's how they'd like things to be. And perhaps there's a fraction of you that's like that too. And I wouldn't nurture that fragment, if I was you, unless you want it to go where it will take you. Anyways, back to Pinocchio.

Anyone who's backed helplessly into a corner enough times can become bold enough to burn everything down. The mechanism is known: crazy is unpredictable. Even longtime antagonists will keep their respectful distance. The impressive thing is not the sudden reversion to absolute chaos, that's the rule, the default state of nature, the impressive thing is how fragile are capability, measure, and subtlety of thought. And that is what should be nurtured.
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Re: chaos

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Fri Apr 28, 2017 1:06 am

fuse wrote:
1:00:30 wrote:And so, Pinocchio, it's a very interesting movie, I could tell you what its fundamental presupposition is, I'll just guide you through it very, very rapidly. So, at the beginning of the movie, Gipedo, who's the archetype of the good father, by the way, which is an archetype that we've forgotten about but does exist because our culture isn't just a tyrannical patriarchy, as you can tell by the fact that we're warm and comfortable and we're not tearing each other to shreds at the moment, which is what you do in a state of absolute chaos, right? It's mayhem while you're freezing and starving. Right. And that isn't what we have. We have peace. And it's rare. And it's amazing that we have it. But we shouldn't take it for granted. Because it's not the normal order of things. The normal order of things is destructive chaos. And if you're fortunate enough to live somewhere that's peaceful and productive, you should thank your lucky stars every second of your life. And if you don't do that all it means is that you don't know anything about history and you know nothing about human beings. Because things can get absolutely monstrous and it happens all the time. And there's always a fraction of the population who thinks that's how they'd like things to be. And perhaps there's a fraction of you that's like that too. And I wouldn't nurture that fragment, if I was you, unless you want it to go where it will take you. Anyways, back to Pinocchio.

Anyone who's backed helplessly into a corner enough times can become bold enough to burn everything down. The mechanism is known: crazy is unpredictable. Even longtime antagonists will keep their respectful distance. The impressive thing is not the sudden reversion to absolute chaos, that's the rule, the default state of nature, the impressive thing is how fragile are capability, measure, and subtlety of thought. And that is what should be nurtured.


Fuse ... for me, a very interesting and time appropriate OP ... most OP's in this forum are parochial whereas your post implies a broader scope ... although I don't know if that was your intention.

The impressive thing is not the sudden reversion to absolute chaos, that's the rule, the default state of nature


Ancient Chinese sages called what you write as "the sudden reversion":

物極必反 wùjíbìfǎn

... roughly translated as "when things reach an extreme, they can only move in the opposite direction"

The sage(s) also claim the source of their insight to be 'nature". For example ... the rose blossom ... the 'peak' of the plant's cycle soon dies and the cycle starts all over again.

capability, measure, and subtlety of thought. And that is what should be nurtured


let's hope we are headed in the direction you suggested.
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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Re: chaos

Postby fuse » Sat Apr 29, 2017 5:45 am

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:Fuse ... for me, a very interesting and time appropriate OP ... most OP's in this forum are parochial whereas your post implies a broader scope ... although I don't know if that was your intention.

If it resonates with you, that's excellent. It didn't used to be this way, but this forum is now host to a lot of maladjusted/paranoid/anarchy/burn it all down types. And with more extreme political polarization in general, I do find Jordan Peterson's above tangent timely.

We don't live in absolute chaos. We have food, shelter, and heat. And we don't live in constant destruction and war, not the vast majority of us in the west. Yet many people now and on this forum indulge in this rhetoric and longing for wanton destruction, free-for-all, and chaos. I have to think it's from desperation, from feeling trapped in another kind of chaos. Otherwise it's sheer ignorance and stupidity. There's nothing easier than letting things go to shit. Just stop thinking and react on impulse. Don't organize, don't compromise, don't plan and work toward a common future. A much more brutal chaos has reigned throughout history. People who think that that is preferable have either never experienced the horrors of war or have no idea what they wish for. Because it's never very far away.

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:
fuse wrote:The impressive thing is not the sudden reversion to absolute chaos, that's the rule, the default state of nature


Ancient Chinese sages called what you write as "the sudden reversion":

物極必反 wùjíbìfǎn

... roughly translated as "when things reach an extreme, they can only move in the opposite direction"

The sage(s) also claim the source of their insight to be 'nature". For example ... the rose blossom ... the 'peak' of the plant's cycle soon dies and the cycle starts all over again.

What a great connection! Yep. I like it.

Our language and dialogue has become more extreme, less thoughtful. We react like a hair trigger when the other side says or does something slightly foul. We label, judge, and punish. We don't argue the point anymore, we just try to beat the other side into submission. We expect the other side to bend to our will, and if they retaliate we band together and excoriate them all the more harshly. There's no patience, too little openness for diversity of thought, and a false sense of security in having numbers and outspoken figureheads.

There is something pernicious and regressive in the air. People are just feeding and feeding it. And as far as I can see, no side is clean.

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:
fuse wrote:capability, measure, and subtlety of thought. And that is what should be nurtured


let's hope we are headed in the direction you suggested.

Sure, but we can do more than hope.
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Re: chaos

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Sat Apr 29, 2017 7:41 am

Fuse ... your post is such an inspiration ... like a breath of fresh ... clean ... air. A rare enough incident these days ... both figuratively and literally!

Let me start with your last comment:

Sure, but we can do more than hope.


Agreed ... and this post is my first baby step beyond hope.

It didn't used to be this way, but this forum is now host to a lot of maladjusted/paranoid/anarchy/burn it all down types.


We both joined ILP in 2006 ... you joined about 6 months earlier than me. Since 2006, I've popped in and out of ILP ... always found it to be a hostile arena ... always left more vexed than when I entered.

For me, there are only two possible answers:

1) The hostility is by design ... attract some serious thinkers and proceed to squash them like a cockroach that has entered one's personal space.

2) An open ... liberal ... no holds barred ... project with virtually no attempt to steer ... control ... manipulate ... simply let the forum go wherever it goes.

I prefer to believe the latter. If right ... ILP has become a microcosm of humanity ... the mix is likely about right ... the proportion of vexatious bullhorns about right and so on. A wonderful circumstance ... with this as a backdrop and with conscious effort ... we may figure out where humanity is headed.

I have to think it's from desperation, from feeling trapped in another kind of chaos. Otherwise it's sheer ignorance and stupidity.


I prefer to believe your first alternative ...
"it's from desperation, from feeling trapped in another kind of chaos."


Why?

1) Information overload from exploding technologies for the past 70 years. Our brains are inundated with information ... overwhelming our ability to integrate ... synthesize all this shit into a coherent whole.

2) The natural inclination to believe that we are doing the "right thing" ... we are living the "right way". No one wants to believe they have been deceived.

3) We are in fact living the "right way" for reasons we don't know or understand. Our life choices have brought humanity to where it is today ... we are not yet on our knees ... we may well be on the threshold of a very positive transformation ... metamorphosis. Does the caterpillar know that it is on route to become a butterfly?

4) The "desperation" ... the "feeling of being trapped" will disappear when the clouds are rolled back and the light shines through ... figuratively speaking.

Enough for a baby step. :)
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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Re: chaos

Postby fuse » Mon May 01, 2017 9:18 am

hey pilgrim,

That's right, I think it was always kind of a free for all here at ILP, but there used to be a better mix of high level discussion and levity circa 2002 - 2006. People were cordial for the most part. Alongside the forum, there were hopes of implementing a semi-academic journal called the "Symposium." It never really took off, and the core membership went through a few upheavals. To tell the truth, things aren't half bad at the moment. But we're usually just short of the critical mass to make this a respectable forum.

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:I prefer to believe your first alternative ...
"it's from desperation, from feeling trapped in another kind of chaos."


Why?

1) Information overload from exploding technologies for the past 70 years. Our brains are inundated with information ... overwhelming our ability to integrate ... synthesize all this shit into a coherent whole.

2) The natural inclination to believe that we are doing the "right thing" ... we are living the "right way". No one wants to believe they have been deceived.

3) We are in fact living the "right way" for reasons we don't know or understand. Our life choices have brought humanity to where it is today ... we are not yet on our knees ... we may well be on the threshold of a very positive transformation ... metamorphosis. Does the caterpillar know that it is on route to become a butterfly?

4) The "desperation" ... the "feeling of being trapped" will disappear when the clouds are rolled back and the light shines through ... figuratively speaking.

My personal opinion is that the well-oiled machines of state and economy, and the day to day business and transactions that sustain them, hum ruthlessly and incessantly so that they suck up all the oxygen. It's not easy to step outside of their matrix, catch one's breath, and take control of one's life.

Life is hard. Even with our basic needs met, life is still challenging and daunting and sometimes quite horrible. I can't imagine life any other way. But I think one has to respect how far we've come from square one and the power of our communities and collaboration.

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:Enough for a baby step. :)

An adult-size step, for sure.
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Re: chaos

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Tue May 02, 2017 12:01 am

Fuse ... another post that oozes intelligence and optimism ... let's hope it becomes contagious. :)

fuse wrote:To tell the truth, things aren't half bad at the moment. But we're usually just short of the critical mass to make this a respectable forum.


ILP has the potential to grow into a world changing platform ... when the core of it's current members embrace the idiom ... "honey attracts more flies than vinegar".

fuse wrote:But I think one has to respect how far we've come from square one and the power of our communities and collaboration.


Absolutely agree ... and the untapped potential is enormous.

fuse wrote:My personal opinion is that the well-oiled machines of state and economy, and the day to day business and transactions that sustain them, hum ruthlessly and incessantly so that they suck up all the oxygen. It's not easy to step outside of their matrix, catch one's breath, and take control of one's life.


Exquisite analogy ... so few words ... such an enormous statement of fact.

The 'machine' you describe has been on artificial life support for more than a century ... the effectiveness of this artificial life support is slipping daily.

The paradox is that the world's population has more than tripled while the 'machine' has been on artificial life support ... go figure eh!

The desperation you mentioned in an earlier post permeates all classes of peoples ...

1) The people with privilege have never lost anything ... there only concern is the anarchy ... chaos ... that will surely result if the natives get too restless.

2) The people with something fear they may lose the little they have.

3) The people with nothing fear they may get hungry.

Insecurity reigns supreme these days ...
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

Thomas Kempis 1380-1471
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Re: chaos

Postby fuse » Wed May 03, 2017 8:47 am

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:Fuse ... another post that oozes intelligence and optimism ... let's hope it becomes contagious. :)

Just spitballin' here, pilgrim. Trying to see what sticks.

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:
fuse wrote:To tell the truth, things aren't half bad at the moment. But we're usually just short of the critical mass to make this a respectable forum.


ILP has the potential to grow into a world changing platform ...

I'll settle for consistently cordial and riveting discourse.

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:
fuse wrote:My personal opinion is that the well-oiled machines of state and economy, and the day to day business and transactions that sustain them, hum ruthlessly and incessantly so that they suck up all the oxygen. It's not easy to step outside of their matrix, catch one's breath, and take control of one's life.


Exquisite analogy ... so few words ... such an enormous statement of fact.

I've just thought a lot about it. It's been said much better, many times before.

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:The 'machine' you describe has been on artificial life support for more than a century ... the effectiveness of this artificial life support is slipping daily.

The paradox is that the world's population has more than tripled while the 'machine' has been on artificial life support ... go figure eh!

The desperation you mentioned in an earlier post permeates all classes of peoples ...

I think there are emerging systems that will render "the machine" as we know it obsolete. For better or worse, I don't know. But I decline to speculate at the moment.
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Re: chaos

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Wed May 03, 2017 2:25 pm

Fuse ... your posts are getting more and more interesting ... exciting.

I'll try to describe my reactions to your last post as they unfolded.

1) After reading your post I went out to help my wife take care of her chickens, ducks and geese ... 14 in total.

2) While helping my wife my mind focused on your words ... "emerging systems" and "speculate"

3) I tend to 'see' self evident direction ... versus speculation ... and 'emerging systems' are simply a continuation of the battle ... man versus nature ... since time immemorial.

4) Nature will obviously triumph ... though I'm not clear yet what the triumph will look like.

5) Back home ... listened to a bit of Terrence McKenna ... he hit a nerve ... brought back a memory ... reworked the thoughts I mentioned above.

6) You likely know I've spent most of the past 11+ years in China. Language has not hindered my contemplation ... experience ... of human life. I don't understand a word of Chinese ... there is no local English speaking community ... and for some reason I've refused to use a telephone for almost 11 years. The exception being a couple of years teaching conversational English to a handful of Chinese people ... some of whom were very interesting and helpful.

7) I only know ... recognize ... two or three Chinese characters ... person and ... jail. You will note the character for 'jail' is a person inside a box.

When chatting with Chinese people ... at the schools where I taught conversational English ... I would often write the Chinese character for jail on the white board and translate it as "culture" ... ergo: I 'see' culture as a jail.

9) McKenna mentioned the same thought ... he suggests habit ... culture ... is a retardant to 'novelty'.

10) I 'see' habit a bit differently ... for me 'habit' ... retardation imposed by culture ... is a necessary stage to prepare a critical mass of people for the next phase of 'novelty' ... without 'habit' to stall ... slow down ... the process ... humanity would go crazy in no time.

11) Today is one of those days where I acknowledge my almost 25 year odyssey with God (Nature) ... as both an interesting and exciting adventure.
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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