"How Western Civilization Could Collapse"

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"How Western Civilization Could Collapse"

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:39 am

"Elites push society toward instability and eventual collapse by hoarding huge quantities of wealth and resources, and leaving little or none for commoners who vastly outnumber them yet support them with labour."


A very insightful ... and perhaps Prescient ... article posted by the BBC ... "How Western Civilization Could Collapse"


http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-04-1 ... d-collapse
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Re: "How Western Civilization Could Collapse"

Postby Amorphos » Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:29 pm

As I see it, in the near future you will for example; to buy a car or flyer, you go to the lighting guys for your lights, body-shell and power pack guys etc, each of which would be a collective, as opposed to the typical boss/[low paid] worker scenario. Each worker will need to be able to deal with each individual buyer on a 1:1 basis. If we arrive at say 1 in 3 businesses being creative collaborations, that will manifest a large middle class.

I think when you have the tech we will soon have which can build anything from carbons in e.g. a 3D laser welding device, and which could in theory put 70% of the population into unemployment, you then need a strategy which totally goes the other way. Fortunately people like Ferrari, rolls Noyce and what have you, will have licensing on their designs, ergo money can get into the system via licensing.

I digress, …I think if society goes to far in that direction ~ towards the rich and a decreasing middle, then something will change in the math.

One possible revolution would be where people just build everything they want and need. If you imagine a time when every other guy will have 3D builder technology in their garages. So if the markets push towards the top and many people cannot get the stuff they want, rules are going to get broken and people will find a way.

I think things will and must change.
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Re: "How Western Civilization Could Collapse"

Postby Meno_ » Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:45 pm

There are some cliches in this possibility, that people not affording the things they think they need, (for Madison Ave. suggests what they want), the producer will develop a downward staging market, where they will increasingly devalue the items that particular economic level cannot afford. Gradually, they will reach total incompetents.

For instance, at certain depressed areas, cell phone outlets sponsored by the government are literally giving away cell phones. Some of these are at welfare agencies, and the only requirement is having proof of being a recipient of welfare. The phone is free, and a minimum amount is withheld from the dole, to pay for the monthly charge.

As far as the recher getting richer, that has already reached the limit, a very few families, or maybe even one family controlling all the wealth of the world. They need not acquire more and more, because they probably know that there are limitations to that too, where, beyond a certain limit, getting more would become counterproductive.

Therefore they play the options game, hedging their goals to correspond with the statistics of the acquired standards related to their liquidation of investments to fund that standard.(Of living).

So the rich getting richer indefinitely may not work. Rather than looking at class exhaustion do to monetary imbalances, the big weakness in accumulation is lies in the unlined realm differential goal between needs and wants as related to appreciation of use of marketable items. There may reach a time when the most extravagant invention may be passed on with a casual shrug, making invention and utilization not worth while, and unmarketable.

This is present even now, with the used car business as an example. The sight of unending supplies of used cars being practically given away by in house financing to almost any creditworthy buying purchaser, connects loosely to Marx's concept of diminishing returns. This is the fragility underbelly for f the market system.

The need to push markets to the very limits, using any and all econo-political stratagems, for instance, is the rationale for the seeming abberrance of the Trump adimnistration. Obama was a rescue effort, to prop up social diversion, and once the calamity was over, is streamed masures of reeling in some kind of
ideology to prop up a vacuum of any kind of system.
Trump is the last political hurray underlying the desperation of not being able to innovate as fast as needed to accommodate the technological advances needed to keep the interest in the market alive.

This is why ultra technology dealing with space exploration and the possibility of colonizing new worlds in deeper parts f space have taken an almost obsessional preoccupation. Flying cars is another. The public imagination needs to stay awake and hungry for more at an ever increasing rate of change.

For the reasons above, a new one world market is no longer sufficient to justify a limitless Capital gain, product innovation needs to take a quantum jump pretty much coinciding with the point at which total accumulated knowledge per-se will reach a limit.

Capitalism is the best method at the moment to overcome the coming consequences of the coming of
The Spiritual Crisis of our time, because it is the system most adapted to innovation as the major compensating factor in this instability.
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Re: "How Western Civilization Could Collapse"

Postby Stephen C Pedersen » Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:47 am

What is a spiritual crisis, and why must it be capitalism that alleviates it?
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Re: "How Western Civilization Could Collapse"

Postby Amorphos » Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:06 am

It is socialism and individuality [as opposed to conglomerates, big companies etc] that will alleviate it. There needs to be an apportioning out of moneys, or people will be building there own stuff, even if they have to do that illegally. It is like printers, you can still buy prints, but you can also make them yourself. Ergo when tech does that with objects proper, people will be able to make their own products.

The rich have no choice but to find a way to put people in positions to buy the stuffs they want.
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Re: "How Western Civilization Could Collapse"

Postby WendyDarling » Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:14 am

Everyone should be allotted 2K a month, a printing setup, and a personal robot who will do almost everything for them, especially their thinking. Wouldn't it be easier to put everyone into cryogenic sleep until Jesus comes to deliver us out of our technological bondage? It'd give Mother Nature an opportunity to heal.



People and their robot selves, but who wants to waste their time jacking around with dumdums through their robot selves. No that won't work, boring.

So each person plugs into a virtual eternity before they cryosleep, similar to the Matrix but without the biological aging. EC can monitor all our puppet worlds. The cryosleep chambers will capture actual emotional energy expunged through daily, eternal virtual reality to perpetually power the chambers.



This, bodysnatching, can be done by the rich until the chambers are ready. Genetic clones for spare parts will be necessary soon.
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Re: "How Western Civilization Could Collapse"

Postby WendyDarling » Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:59 am

pilgrim,

Since everything is interconnected, planetary, it would be more liken to a world collapse. (Deja vu time :-? )

So some hoity-toity guy speculates on an already unfolding reality, literally not telling us anything that we don't already surmise. The article offered no solutions on top of no facts, which makes it worthless in my book.

Using reason and science to guide decisions, paired with extraordinary leadership and exceptional goodwill, human society can progress to higher and higher levels of well-being and development, Homer-Dixon says.
LOLZ! Did he write that sentence with a straight face? Once again, I've re-entered the Twilight Zone.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: "How Western Civilization Could Collapse"

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:43 pm

Wendy wrote:

Since everything is interconnected, planetary, it would be more liken to a world collapse. (Deja vu time :-? )


Just as the planet goes round and round ... seems human destiny is subject to the same repetitive pattern:

Wiki
The deserters too then hurled themselves into the flames,[4] upon which Scipio Aemilianus began weeping. He recited a sentence from Homer's Iliad,[5] a prophecy about the destruction of Troy, that could be applied now to Carthage's end. Scipio declared that the fate of Carthage might one day be Rome's.[6][7] In the words of Polybius:

Scipio, when he looked upon the city as it was utterly perishing and in the last throes of its complete destruction, is said to have shed tears and wept openly for his enemies. After being wrapped in thought for long, and realizing that all cities, nations, and authorities must, like men, meet their doom; that this happened to Ilium, once a prosperous city, to the empires of Assyria, Media, and Persia, the greatest of their time, and to Macedonia itself, the brilliance of which was so recent, either deliberately or the verses escaping him, he said:

A day will come when sacred Troy shall perish,
And Priam and his people shall be slain.


The only difference between these historic events and today is "scope" ... human evolution has succeeded in elevating the pattern from a regional one to a planetary one ... good for us eh!
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Re: "How Western Civilization Could Collapse"

Postby Amorphos » Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:04 pm

Wendy
Everyone should be allotted 2K a month, a printing setup, and a personal robot who will do almost everything for them, especially their thinking. Wouldn't it be easier to put everyone into cryogenic sleep until Jesus comes to deliver us out of our technological bondage? It'd give Mother Nature an opportunity to heal.


Or they would get life-plans and a credit of a kind per type of licence to build a thing, or to get it built. Most people could build say car parts on a lathe, but still mostly buy cars parts which other people have made. People will still need to work to get their credit up, but there will be a design revolution. That to me could be an awesome freedom, I mean to make anything you want, robots, flyers, void [air without air in] ships, sci-fi houses with robotic kitchen, self cleaning. Ya, that will do me. Completely self sufficient units.

I agree that virtual reality will be an issue, and people will spend a lot of time in their exo-suits and connected surrogates. You can think of many reasons to not do fun stuffs, but you just end up with a big load of nothing. So I’d rather have stuff. oh, and I think if the real world was mapped to gaming worlds, which you could send your avatar into and fight virtual battles 1:1, then that world sounds more fun than this one. I can imagine the system is going to get tighter and not looser.

_
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Re: "How Western Civilization Could Collapse"

Postby above us only sky » Fri May 12, 2017 12:37 pm

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:
"Elites push society toward instability and eventual collapse by hoarding huge quantities of wealth and resources, and leaving little or none for commoners who vastly outnumber them yet support them with labour."


A very insightful ... and perhaps Prescient ... article posted by the BBC ... "How Western Civilization Could Collapse"


http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-04-1 ... d-collapse


No, I do not agree.

1. The west is not as instable as you think and the western rulling elite is not as stupid as you think, the rulling elite understands if they want to survive they have to frequently give the commoners some sweets (like obamacare) so the commoners would not revolt.

2. The western elite still has the might to exploit Africa and Asia to get the extra resources needed to please the commoners at home while keeping its own share of interests.
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Re: "How Western Civilization Could Collapse"

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Sat May 13, 2017 12:33 am

above us only sky wrote:
pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:
"Elites push society toward instability and eventual collapse by hoarding huge quantities of wealth and resources, and leaving little or none for commoners who vastly outnumber them yet support them with labour."


A very insightful ... and perhaps Prescient ... article posted by the BBC ... "How Western Civilization Could Collapse"


http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-04-1 ... d-collapse


No, I do not agree.

1. The west is not as instable as you think and the western rulling elite is not as stupid as you think, the rulling elite understands if they want to survive they have to frequently give the commoners some sweets (like obamacare) so the commoners would not revolt.

2. The western elite still has the might to exploit Africa and Asia to get the extra resources needed to please the commoners at home while keeping its own share of interests.


I'm inclined to believe it is more of a Divine Endowment ... akin to the exodus myth ... where the Israelites were bestowed a Divine Endowment ... to enter the land of Canaan, slaughter all the inhabitants and claim the land as a Divine Endowment. This myth was rekindled about 70 years ago and is in play today.

Ditto for the British, French and Spanish ... the Americas were a Divine Endowment bequeathed to the Europeans ... to enter the Americas, slaughter all the inhabitants and claim the land as a Divine Endowment.

Small minded humans cry foul ... where is the justice ... morality ... ethics of this Divinity?

Open minded humans can 'see' that these Divine Endowments are simply tools used to force humanity to move in a particular direction.

Divine Endowments are given and taken back ... again ... small minded humans accuse this Divinity of being an Indian Giver.

Open minded humans understand that when the purpose of the Endowment has been fulfilled a new Endowment is bequeathed to someone else. history confirms this story over and over again.

The same phenomenon can be seen at the individual level.
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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Re: "How Western Civilization Could Collapse"

Postby above us only sky » Sat May 13, 2017 3:15 am

WendyDarling wrote:pilgrim,

Since everything is interconnected, planetary, it would be more liken to a world collapse. (Deja vu time :-? )



:)
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