Who discovered North America ?

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Re: Who discovered North America ?

Postby Arminius » Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:28 am

So, it was an act of kindness. It is kindness what ILP lacks a bit. So, what you said, Pilgrim-Seeker Tom, makes me very happy. :D

But my response was an act of kindness too. :D

I hope, you have noticed that.
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How should we go on?

We stopped here:

Arminius wrote:
Uccisore wrote:
pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:Perhaps!

OTH ... do we really know there was no northwest passage 600 years ago? The oral Inuit legend in Pond Inlet Nunavut suggests otherwise, yeah! :-)

OK, so there was a northwest passage 600 years ago that doesn't exist anymore for some reason. And the Chinese discovered it. And didn't tell anybody. And used it to sail all the way around North America to accurately map Florida, Cuba, and the east coast of South America. That's all possible I guess, but I still maintain it's much more likely they just got the maps from somebody- for example European traders.

That is indeed much more likely.
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Re: Who discovered North America ?

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:29 am

Arminius wrote:So, it was an act of kindness. It is kindness what ILP lacks a bit. So, what you said, Pilgrim-Seeker Tom, makes me very happy. :D

But my response was an act of kindness too. :D

I hope, you have noticed that.
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OK ... we each patted ourselves on the back ... with no implication of narcissism either. :-)

Seems we have hit another impervious wall ... so be it! :D
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Re: Who discovered North America ?

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:14 pm

Armenius ... OTH I suppose attempts to penetrate "impervious walls" is what learning is all about. :-)

My thoughts on the question ... Where are we?

1) You have access to ... and an affinity for ... a yuge data bank.

2) I hate details ... I find them confusing. :-) OTH I have 25 years experience sitting in a boat with a large sail and no rudder. :-)

Perhaps the particulars of our individual character are complimentary.

Moving on to something more specific ... Nunavut.

My boat parked in Nunavut for 2 and a half years ... in two stints ... the first one ... 12 months alone ... the second one ... 18 months with Huang Hui ... my Chinese wife.

Almost all of my experience(s) in Nunavut were hellish ... almost all. :-) I have a vivid and fond memory of walking barefeet on the snow/ice at the floe edge near Pond Inlet in late June 2005.

Reflecting on my Nunavut memories triggered a recollection of something Huang Hui mentioned several times. She felt the proximity to the magnetic North Pole affected her mind. I listened respectfully though I attributed my hellish experiences to the result of my interactions with Inuit people and foreigners residing in Nunavut at the same time.

1) I figured the Inuit were living between two worlds ... their former world which was hopelessly lost forever and their current world ... a world which they could not adapt to ... the "white man's" world.

2) The foreigners residing in Nunavut were mostly run aways ... happy to pocket the very generous salaries.

Today ... I'm not so sure. Perhaps you have access to data that explains what ... if any ... effect the Magnetic North Pole has on human minds.

The Northern Hemisphere has long been the "engine" of human evolution ... particularly the peoples in rather close proximity to the North Pole including Europe. Hmmm!
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Re: Who discovered North America ?

Postby Inconvenient Reality » Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:23 pm

So the chinese map shows details of the east and west coast, and you propose that there was a northwest passage 600 years ago. My question is, where is the map of the passage? They mapped the coasts but didn't bother to write down how they got there?

https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/01/0123_060123_chinese_map.html

Is this the map? Hmm.. Not looking good.
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Re: Who discovered North America ?

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:28 pm

Inconvenient Reality wrote:So the chinese map shows details of the east and west coast, and you propose that there was a northwest passage 600 years ago. My question is, where is the map of the passage? They mapped the coasts but didn't bother to write down how they got there?

https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/01/0123_060123_chinese_map.html

Is this the map? Hmm.. Not looking good.


I just read the national geographic article you posted above.

What really happened is difficult to prove, because China burned the records of Zheng's expeditions, scholars say.


... and why do you think they did that? :-)

... and why would a floating city spend 3 years sailing to Africa and back?
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Re: Who discovered North America ?

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:05 pm

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:
Inconvenient Reality wrote:So the chinese map shows details of the east and west coast, and you propose that there was a northwest passage 600 years ago. My question is, where is the map of the passage? They mapped the coasts but didn't bother to write down how they got there?

https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/01/0123_060123_chinese_map.html

Is this the map? Hmm.. Not looking good.


I just read the national geographic article you posted above.

What really happened is difficult to prove, because China burned the records of Zheng's expeditions, scholars say.


... and why do you think they did that? :-)

... and why would a floating city spend 3 years sailing to Africa and back?


Let me start with a familiar quote:

Why it's elementary my dear Watson ... elementary!


In the movies and TV series Sherlock Holmes is portrayed as a man with particularly keen deductive reasoning skills. Such skills remain useful when attempting to solve some mystery in the absence of hard facts.

How is this relevant here?

Here's a clue ... taken from the article posted yesterday ...

"If this is a 1418 map, it's a whole style very much different than any 1418 map that I've seen," said John Hébert, the chief of the Geography and Map Division at the Library of Congress in Washington, D.C.

Hébert, who has only viewed a small reproduction of the map online, says the map's depiction of the Earth with China not at the center raises a red flag.


1) Preserving the hierarchy and soci l order in China rested on a single premise for thousands of years ... the Emperor was believed ... at least by the masses ... to be the "Son of Heaven" ... not unlike the story of Jesus as the "Son of God" ... ergo ... "China was the center of the world." Hébert is right but he misses the point ... intentionally or not I don't know.

2) The Zheng He expeditions were on a scale never before seen in human history ... ergo ...immensely expensive ... suggesting the existence of an equally immense purpose. Let me propose a hypothetical purpose. Go out into the world ... to it's farthest extremes, record what you find and report back. ... ergo ... prove beyond the shadow of doubt that China is in fact the Centre of the World.

3) Zheng He was successful in his mission though his detailed findings created an existential problem for preservation of both the hierarchy and social order of China ... the reports clearly proved the opposite of what they wanted ... ergo China was NOT the centre of the world. What to do? Burn the records, destroy the fleet and close the doors to outside influence.(the doors to China remained closed from the time of Zheng He until about 1979) We know that corpses of foreigners were not granted burial rights within the borders of China in the early 17th century ... they were sent to Macau. Matteo Ricci's corpse was the first ... he was buried in Beijing circa 1610.

4) Is it possible that an original copy of a map survived a few centuries? Is it possible that a few fragments of the dead sea scrolls survived around 2,000 years? Is it possible that a few fragments of the Gnostic Gospels survived almost 2,000 years? Is it possible that a copy of the Dao De Jing written on bamboo sticks survived almost 2,000 years? Is it possible that clay statues ... Terra Cotta Warriors ... survived more than 2,000 years? The question that begs to be asked ... Why is all this stuff surfacing now?

5) There remains the liklihood that many original documents from the Zheng He expeditions remain intact in storage somewhere. Much like the persistent rumors of a "secret" in Europe ... documentary evidence of the geneological history of Jesus ... perhaps up to and including his marriage and the birth of a child or children.
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Re: Who discovered North America ?

Postby Arminius » Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:47 pm

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:Arminius ... OTH I suppose attempts to penetrate "impervious walls" is what learning is all about. :-)

My thoughts on the question ... Where are we?

1) You have access to ... and an affinity for ... a yuge data bank.

2) I hate details ... I find them confusing. :-) OTH I have 25 years experience sitting in a boat with a large sail and no rudder. :-)

Perhaps the particulars of our individual character are complimentary.

Moving on to something more specific ... Nunavut.

My boat parked in Nunavut for 2 and a half years ... in two stints ... the first one ... 12 months alone ... the second one ... 18 months with Huang Hui ... my Chinese wife.

Almost all of my experience(s) in Nunavut were hellish ... almost all. :-) I have a vivid and fond memory of walking barefeet on the snow/ice at the floe edge near Pond Inlet in late June 2005.

Reflecting on my Nunavut memories triggered a recollection of something Huang Hui mentioned several times. She felt the proximity to the magnetic North Pole affected her mind. I listened respectfully though I attributed my hellish experiences to the result of my interactions with Inuit people and foreigners residing in Nunavut at the same time.

1) I figured the Inuit were living between two worlds ... their former world which was hopelessly lost forever and their current world ... a world which they could not adapt to ... the "white man's" world.

2) The foreigners residing in Nunavut were mostly run aways ... happy to pocket the very generous salaries.

Today ... I'm not so sure. Perhaps you have access to data that explains what ... if any ... effect the Magnetic North Pole has on human minds.

The Northern Hemisphere has long been the "engine" of human evolution ... particularly the peoples in rather close proximity to the North Pole including Europe. Hmmm!

Climate zones:

Image Image

What do you think about the following video? (The Inuit are the Very Cold Ecotype - see for example: 9:17 ff., 23:37 ff., 28:29 ff. in the video).

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Re: Who discovered North America ?

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:16 am

My gut reaction ... straight up :-)

1) He started with his conclusions and built a case to support them.

2) His very cold ---> warm arguments don't hold water ... the antarctic is as cold as the arctic.

3) I suspect Hung Hui's intuition is more accurate ... it's the "magnetic" North Pole issue.

4) The meek will inherit the earth. :-)
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Re: Who discovered North America ?

Postby Arminius » Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:00 am

The Antarctic is a bit colder than the Arctic. :)
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Re: Who discovered North America ?

Postby Uccisore » Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:48 pm

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:My gut reaction ... straight up :-)

1) He started with his conclusions and built a case to support them.


Um, that's exactly what you did. Right up to the point where you whined about how hard it is to bring others to your 'Truth'. Not having any evidence of your claims makes it challenging.

It's pretty straightforward that if these maps came from Chinese exploration, the details of the west coast would be greater than the east, and that's not what we find.
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Re: Who discovered North America ?

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:00 am

Uccisore wrote:
pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:My gut reaction ... straight up :-)

1) He started with his conclusions and built a case to support them.


Um, that's exactly what you did. Right up to the point where you whined about how hard it is to bring others to your 'Truth'. Not having any evidence of your claims makes it challenging.

It's pretty straightforward that if these maps came from Chinese exploration, the details of the west coast would be greater than the east, and that's not what we find.


Seems to me the greater detail would be a natural consequence of spending more time on one coast or the other.

I didn't realize you know the Zheng He expeditions spent more time on the West coast. :-)

As I wrote in an earlier post ... details confuse me. :-)
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Re: Who discovered North America ?

Postby Uccisore » Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:42 am

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:
Seems to me the greater detail would be a natural consequence of spending more time on one coast or the other.


That's right. Ships leaving China into the Pacific Ocean would be vastly more likely to spend more time on the US West coast than the East, since they have to sail alllll the way around the tip of South America to get to our East Coast.

I didn't realize you know the Zheng He expeditions spent more time on the West coast. :-)


I'm not the one who started patting himself on the back about how merciful it is not to push others into the Truth. And now here you are using any lack of certainty as an excuse for your wishful thinking. You insult me, and you can't even managed to do it without being a hypocrite.

If you have some substantial reason to believe Zheng He made it to Cuba, present it. Nothing is stopping you other than it's lack of existence.
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Re: Who discovered North America ?

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:53 am

Uccisore wrote:That's right. Ships leaving China into the Pacific Ocean would be vastly more likely to spend more time on the US West coast than the East, since they have to sail alllll the way around the tip of South America to get to our East Coast.


Yeah ... your above statement is a doubtless fact.

Ooops ... almost forgot ... going through the North West passage from East to West would eventually bring them to the West Coast of North America ... and being the last stage of their circumnavigation of the globe ... likely impatient to get back home.

Of course ... deductive reasoning is always trumped by facts ... well done Ucci :D
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Re: Who discovered North America ?

Postby Uccisore » Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:24 pm

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:Yeah ... your above statement is a doubtless fact.


Yes, I know. It is a doubtless fact that a Chinese ship sailing across the specific is more likely to spend time on the North American West Coast than the East Coast. That's right. In order for them to have spent more time on the East Coast, you would need an insane, convoluted theory with next to no evidence supporting it, such as your idea that they went around the entire world first and used a Northwest Passage that nobody else knew about.

Ooops ... almost forgot ... going through the North West passage from East to West


Did you also forget that the Northwest Passage is world famous for not existing (at least without an ice breaker), and the idea that the Chinese had access to one came from your imagination?
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Re: Who discovered North America ?

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:33 am

... and the crowd clamored for an encore!!

... and the honorable Ucci ... drenched in modesty ... delivered.

=D> =D>

Ucci ... you have obviously mistaken me for someone who gives a shit about such trivial matters

I'm simply returning a kindness(s) you rendered me in your earlier posts in other OPs.

A kindness rendered compels one to reciprocate ... no?
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Re: Who discovered North America ?

Postby Uccisore » Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:43 am

I'm not modest. But I don't turn the conversation to people's personal traits when I can't refute their points.

Yes, no doubt in other threads you spouted unsubstantiated rubbish and I called it out there, too. You were probably making unfounded generalization about what all religious people or all 'people in the West' are like. That's sort of your thing, right?
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Re: Who discovered North America ?

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:26 am

Uccisore wrote:I'm not modest. But I don't turn the conversation to people's personal traits when I can't refute their points.

Yes, no doubt in other threads you spouted unsubstantiated rubbish and I called it out there, too. You were probably making unfounded generalization about what all religious people or all 'people in the West' are like. That's sort of your thing, right?


... as if right on cue ... just posted some more comments fitting your above description in the OP "Truth is long-sighted"

Don't miss out on yet another opportunity for you to piss all over my thoughts. :lol:
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