Who discovered North America ?

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Re: Who discovered North America ?

Postby Pandora » Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:43 pm

The Kenewick Man Controversy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jg28ww5IaXY

The study showed he was genetically closer to Native Americans than to any other groups:
https://www.nature.com/articles/nature14625

Early this year (2017), his remains were returned to the Indian tribes for burial:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJDg6H7MNE4
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Re: Who discovered North America ?

Postby surreptitious75 » Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:49 pm

The reason why it is called America is because of Amerigo Vespucci who discovered it before Columbus did
Not that he was the actual discoverer himself since it has been acknowledged that others came before him
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Re: Who discovered North America ?

Postby Arminius » Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:08 pm

Arminius wrote:The first who discovered America were the Vikings under Leif Eriksson who lived from 970 to 1020. They discovered it around the year 1000.

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Leif had one ship and a crew of 35, including himself. History records the group as containing 34 Vikings and 1 German. After leaving Greenland, they first happened upon an undiscovered island made of rock with ice mountains in the background. The second island they found contained flat white sand beaches and woodlands. Continuing westward, the third giant island they found may not have been an island at all. Many historians believe that Leif and his crew had just discovered the New England coast.

In 1473, an expedition under the command of the Germans Didrik Pining und Hans Pothorst with the Danish navigator Johannes Scolvus and the Portuguese João Vaz Corte-Real discovered America also before Christopher Columbus (1492).
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Re: Who discovered North America ?

Postby James S Saint » Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:45 pm

Can you really say that a man discovered it if he didn't even know what it was?

Who first realized that it was an entire continent between Asia and Europe?
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Re: Who discovered North America ?

Postby Arminius » Fri Nov 24, 2017 12:46 am

If the semantics of the word "discoverer" or the word discovering" has to meet two conditions - (1.) to be the first one who has arrived and (2.) to know for sure what exactly has been discovered -, then nobody has ever discovered North America. :P
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Re: Who discovered North America ?

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Fri Nov 24, 2017 1:02 am

Arminius wrote:If the semantics of the word "discoverer" or the word discovering" has to meet two conditions - (1.) to be the first one who has arrived and (2.) to know for sure what exactly has been discovered -, then nobody has ever discovered North America. :P


Perhaps ... than again ... 1421: The Year China Discovered America

... and the Chinese likely were aware of the geography of the Western Hemisphere ... at least in a broad/general sense.
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Re: Who discovered North America ?

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Fri Nov 24, 2017 5:54 am

"Facts are always convincing, conclusions drawn from facts are often erroneous."


Here are some facts ... draw your own conclusions. :-)

I was living and working in Pond Inlet Nunavut before coming to China.

pond-inlet-nunavut-map.png
pond-inlet-nunavut-map.png (61.55 KiB) Viewed 484 times


In bidding farewell to my boss ... a middle aged Inuit man ... born in an igloo ... probably one of the last Inuit people to be born in such circumstances ... he shared an oral Inuit legend ... "The Chinese will be back"

12 years later the echo of his story is carried on the wind for all those with eyes to see or ears to hear. The message is crystal clear and the intensity of the message is both blinding and deafening ... in essence ... "The Chinese are back!

The only difference between the former and the latter is the conjugation of the verb "to be" ... in the former "will be" and the latter "are".

As JSS so astutely wrote a month or so ago ... "Truth is destructive"

It is indeed ... it is ... i n d e e d !
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Re: Who discovered North America ?

Postby Arminius » Fri Nov 24, 2017 2:03 pm

Martin Waldseemüller (1470-1520), Universalis Cosmographia, Waldseemüller's 1507 world map which was the first to show the Americas.

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Re: Who discovered North America ?

Postby Arminius » Fri Nov 24, 2017 2:21 pm

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:
Arminius wrote:If the semantics of the word "discoverer" or the word discovering" has to meet two conditions - (1.) to be the first one who has arrived and (2.) to know for sure what exactly has been discovered -, then nobody has ever discovered North America. :P


Perhaps ... than again ... 1421: The Year China Discovered America

... and the Chinese likely were aware of the geography of the Western Hemisphere ... at least in a broad/general sense.

This is rejected by historians as a fiction.
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Re: Who discovered North America ?

Postby Arminius » Fri Nov 24, 2017 2:28 pm

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:
"Facts are always convincing, conclusions drawn from facts are often erroneous."


Here are some facts ... draw your own conclusions. :-)

I was living and working in Pond Inlet Nunavut before coming to China.

pond-inlet-nunavut-map.png


In bidding farewell to my boss ... a middle aged Inuit man ... born in an igloo ... probably one of the last Inuit people to be born in such circumstances ... he shared an oral Inuit legend ... "The Chinese will be back"

12 years later the echo of his story is carried on the wind for all those with eyes to see or ears to hear. The message is crystal clear and the intensity of the message is both blinding and deafening ... in essence ... "The Chinese are back!

They may have heard of this legend. But not everything that has been said and heard is true.
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Re: Who discovered North America ?

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:53 pm

Arminius wrote:
pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:
Arminius wrote:If the semantics of the word "discoverer" or the word discovering" has to meet two conditions - (1.) to be the first one who has arrived and (2.) to know for sure what exactly has been discovered -, then nobody has ever discovered North America. :P


Perhaps ... than again ... 1421: The Year China Discovered America

... and the Chinese likely were aware of the geography of the Western Hemisphere ... at least in a broad/general sense.

This is rejected by historians as a fiction.


Of course!

Anything less would be suicidal. :-)

The Chinese ventured out into the world about 600 years ago ... triggered a quantum shift in Western consciousness ... ergo ...the renaissance.

The Chinese went back home and closed their doors to the outside world until recently.

The Chinese are once again going out into the world ... expect another quantum shift in Western consciousness. :-)
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Re: Who discovered North America ?

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:55 pm

Arminius wrote:
pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:
"Facts are always convincing, conclusions drawn from facts are often erroneous."


Here are some facts ... draw your own conclusions. :-)

I was living and working in Pond Inlet Nunavut before coming to China.

pond-inlet-nunavut-map.png


In bidding farewell to my boss ... a middle aged Inuit man ... born in an igloo ... probably one of the last Inuit people to be born in such circumstances ... he shared an oral Inuit legend ... "The Chinese will be back"

12 years later the echo of his story is carried on the wind for all those with eyes to see or ears to hear. The message is crystal clear and the intensity of the message is both blinding and deafening ... in essence ... "The Chinese are back!

They may have heard of this legend. But not everything that has been said and heard is true.


Read my opening quote.
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Re: Who discovered North America ?

Postby Arminius » Sat Nov 25, 2017 12:08 am

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:
Arminius wrote:
pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:Perhaps ... than again ... 1421: The Year China Discovered America

... and the Chinese likely were aware of the geography of the Western Hemisphere ... at least in a broad/general sense.

This is rejected by historians as a fiction.

Of course!

Anything less would be suicidal. :-)

Most Chinese historians also reject the alleged Chinese discovery of America as a fiction.
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Re: Who discovered North America ?

Postby Arminius » Sat Nov 25, 2017 12:11 am

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:Read my opening quote.

:?:

above us only sky wrote:We learned in the school history class that America is discovered by Christopher Columbus in 1492. But in recent years some people suggested there might be another story.

Here is one story I found very interesting:

North America was first discovered by Asian explorers. Here are some "evidence"

Evidence 1: A brass Medallion was found in early 1994 near Asheville, North Carolina with the following words "authorized and awarded by emperor Xuan De of Great Ming"

Emperor Xuan De was the ruler of Ming dynasty China from 1425 to 1435.

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Here is the detail: http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/my-best-finds/373268-diggers-diary-mysterious-ming-medallion.html

Evidence 2: The European maps at the time contains very limited detail of the geography of the inland and pacific coastal area of North America while some Chinese maps have much more details and seems more correct:

Here is the link of a 1602 Chinese map, it is a collection of the library of congress.
https://www.loc.gov/resource/g3200.ex000006Zb/

If a person compare it with some 1650 European maps like this one
https://www.loc.gov/resource/g3291s.mf000074/

One would realize that even 100 years after Christopher Columbus, the European map makers still consider California as a big island separated from the American mainland.

Evidence 3: In some American Indian culture, there may be something connected to explorers from Asia.
Here is the historical flag of the Cherokee people, this flag has the Big Dipper asterism.
Image

And the Big Dipper asterism can also be seen in ancient Chinese flags. A 1400s Chinese naval guidebook shows the use of asterism for navigation.
Image

Of course, there are different stories, some say America was first discovered by the Viking people long before Christopher Columbus.

Are they true?

Is that your opening post, Pilgrim-Seeker Tom?
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Re: Who discovered North America ?

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Sat Nov 25, 2017 3:25 am

Nope! :-)

"Facts are always convincing, conclusions drawn from facts are often erroneous."
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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Re: Who discovered North America ?

Postby MagsJ » Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:41 pm

Arminius wrote:When you came to England, did you discover England like the Vikings when they discovered North America? :)

I was born there... I guess you've never really taken in what I've said in my posts.

Its not so much about nations claiming to have discovered countries and continents, but more about what they do when they get there - the migrants seem to think that they have discovered Europe.. because they seem to be trying to take over.
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Re: Who discovered North America ?

Postby Arminius » Mon Nov 27, 2017 9:50 pm

MagsJ wrote:
Arminius wrote:When you came to England, did you discover England like the Vikings when they discovered North America? :)

I was born there... I guess you've never really taken in what I've said in my posts.

Sorry, Mags, but I have not read all your 16959 posts. I would like to ..., if I had enough time. :)

MagsJ wrote:Its not so much about nations claiming to have discovered countries and continents, but more about what they do when they get there - the migrants seem to think that they have discovered Europe.. because they seem to be trying to take over.

To me, a discovery must or should have to do with objectivity like for example a scientific discovery.

One should know "something" about the discovered object before the discovery.

The question is what exactly one should know about it before the discovery.

James S Saint wrote:Can you really say that a man discovered it if he didn't even know what it was?

Who first realized that it was an entire continent between Asia and Europe?

Arminius wrote:If the semantics of the word "discoverer" or the word discovering" has to meet two conditions - (1.) to be the first one who has arrived and (2.) to know for sure what exactly has been discovered -, then nobody has ever discovered North America. :P
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Re: Who discovered North America ?

Postby Uccisore » Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:56 am

above us only sky wrote:Evidence 2: The European maps at the time contains very limited detail of the geography of the inland and pacific coastal area of North America while some Chinese maps have much more details and seems more correct:


It's interesting to note that the Chinese map has as much if not more detail of the east coast of North America as it does the west, and it's extremely unlikely they sailed all the way over there, since as we all know there is no northwest passage. Much more likely they just got these maps from some other nation, yeah?
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Re: Who discovered North America ?

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:45 am

Uccisore wrote:
above us only sky wrote:Evidence 2: The European maps at the time contains very limited detail of the geography of the inland and pacific coastal area of North America while some Chinese maps have much more details and seems more correct:


It's interesting to note that the Chinese map has as much if not more detail of the east coast of North America as it does the west, and it's extremely unlikely they sailed all the way over there, since as we all know there is no northwest passage. Much more likely they just got these maps from some other nation, yeah?


Perhaps!

OTH ... do we really know there was no northwest passage 600 years ago? The oral Inuit legend in Pond Inlet Nunavut suggests otherwise, yeah! :-)
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Re: Who discovered North America ?

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:34 am

The timing of the disappearance of the Dorset culture coincides with the timing of the Zheng He travels ... generally speaking.

Certainly makes a boat load or two of Chinese people abandoned somewhere in the Arctic a credible theory. :-)


The Dorset culture (also called the Dorset Tradition) was a Paleo-Eskimo culture (500 BCE to between 1000 and 1500 CE) that preceded the Inuit in the Arctic of North America. It is named after Cape Dorset in Nunavut, Canada where the first evidence of its existence was found. The culture has been defined as having four phases due to the distinct differences in the technologies relating to hunting and tool making. Artifacts include distinctive triangular end-blades, soapstone lamps, and burins.

The Dorset were first identified as a separate culture in 1925. The Dorset appesr to have been extinct by 1500 at the latest and perhaps as early as 1000. The Thule people, who began migrating east from Alaska in the 11th century, ended up spreading through the lands previously inhabited by the Dorset. There is no strong evidence that the Inuit and Dorset ever met. Modern genetic studies show the Dorset population were distinct from later groups and that "[t]here was virtually no evidence of genetic or cultural interaction between the Dorset and the Thule peoples."[1]

Inuit legends recount them encountering people they called the Tuniit (singular Tuniq) or Sivullirmiut "First Inhabitants". According to legend, the First Inhabitants were giants, taller and stronger than the Inuit but afraid to interact and "easily put to flight."[2] Scholars now believe the Dorset and the later Thule people were the peoples encountered by Norsemen who visited the area. The Norse called these indigenous peoples skræling.
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Re: Who discovered North America ?

Postby Uccisore » Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:22 pm

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:
Uccisore wrote:
above us only sky wrote:Evidence 2: The European maps at the time contains very limited detail of the geography of the inland and pacific coastal area of North America while some Chinese maps have much more details and seems more correct:


It's interesting to note that the Chinese map has as much if not more detail of the east coast of North America as it does the west, and it's extremely unlikely they sailed all the way over there, since as we all know there is no northwest passage. Much more likely they just got these maps from some other nation, yeah?


Perhaps!

OTH ... do we really know there was no northwest passage 600 years ago? The oral Inuit legend in Pond Inlet Nunavut suggests otherwise, yeah! :-)



OK, so there was a northwest passage 600 years ago that doesn't exist anymore for some reason. And the Chinese discovered it. And didn't tell anybody. And used it to sail all the way around North America to accurately map Florida, Cuba, and the east coast of South America. That's all possible I guess, but I still maintain it's much more likely they just got the maps from somebody- for example European traders.
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Re: Who discovered North America ?

Postby Arminius » Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:29 pm

That is indeed much more likely.
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Re: Who discovered North America ?

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:37 pm

OK ... you win! :-) :-)
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Re: Who discovered North America ?

Postby Arminius » Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:44 pm

Why do you give up so early?
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Re: Who discovered North America ?

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:22 am

Arminius wrote:Why do you give up so early?


Who surrendered?

It was an act of kindness. :-)

Pushing individuals to confront Truth ... as in "face to face" is a grossly (un)kind act.

Such an act ... confronting Truth ... is excruciatingly painful and fraught with peril. Trust me ... said the snake oil salesman. :-)
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