prejudices and the tit-for-tat game

A while back, I posted my two cents in phyllo’s thread Science must be “decolonized”. He posted an interesting video (it’s worth taking a trip over there and watching the video, only a few minutes long). The summary: a group of mostly black students that call themselves “fallists” meet with the UCT Science Faculty in Cape Town, South Africa to debate the the merits and utility of Western science, which they claim is a form of white colonization rooted in racism. The thesis they try to defend is to decolonize or “scratch off” Western science in order to make way for a new African science, a science open to magic and witchcraft which, as one fallist claims, is “something that happens.”

Pressed to explain how such phenomena actually “happen,” one member of the science faculty responds: “It’s not true.” ← Big mistake. The chair of the fallist panel immediately stands up with a look of alarm on her face while the speaker and her companion next to her chuckle to each other with gestures that say “you see? That’s what they do!” The chair silences the room and hammers home the point that the faculty member just violated one of the rules of the discourse, and enforces an apology (which he submits to) and to reaffirm his vow to follow the rules. Apparently, saying that a wild claim about witchcraft is not true is a violation of the rules.

Now if you read my long winded response in that thread, you get the idea that I think the fallist panel is utterly insane. But being the multifaceted thinker I am, I always like to ponder things from all sides. One thing that comes to mind, which is the basis for this thread, is that the fallists have a point (though it’s not explicitly said) that the scientific community (Western or otherwise) tends to be quite dogmatic on the point that magic and witchcraft are “not true”. Such claims do tend to be dismissed out of hand by hardnosed scientists and materialists as soon as they’re raised.

Now this is not a thread for defending fallists, or anyone who wishes to dispute skeptical attitudes about magic and witchcraft (although you can if you want)–rather, it is a thread for exploring the roots of our prejudices. Starting with the point that scientists tend to be dogmatic in their dismissal of claims about magic and witchcraft, it got me thinking that maybe the fallists aren’t on such shaky grounds for challenging Western science after all–I’m not going to say their other criticisms–that it is based on racism, that it should be scratch off, that we can claim with equal dogmatism that magic and witchcraft do happen–are backed by solid reasoning or evidence–but what I am going to say is the dogmatisms that we acquire, the ones that ultimately culminate in prejudices and bigotry, always seem to be traceable to similar dogmatisms and prejudices coming from the other side, dogmatisms and prejudices that they had to fight in times past.

It’s almost a tit-for-that game. If you ask one of the fallists: Why are you so militant and dogmatic in your confrontations with the science faculty? They’ll likely respond (after getting over their defensiveness and denial): because we have to be in order to compete with the militancy and dogmatism that the science faculty confront us with. Then you go to the science faculty and ask: why are you so dogmatic in your insistence that magic and witchcraft are just not true? And after getting over their insistence that magic is irrational, that there’s no evidence for it, etc., etc., etc., they might relay to you tales of corrupt religious leaders, cult leaders conning people into believing in the supernatural in order to use them for some purpose. And these tales wouldn’t be wrong, of course–it happens. Western science, after all, has a history of Church persecution–Galileo, Bruno, Descartes, to name a few–they too had to face fierce dogmatisms and prejudices. And what of the Church? Did it not begin with its own persecution? Were not the early Christians martyrs in the ancient Roman empire?

The claim of this thread is that no prejudice is born ex nihilo–anyone you deem to be prejudice in one way or another will, if you ask them, point to certain prejudices in the other group as their reasons for holding their prejudices. And while such accusations are almost certainly guaranteed to be major distortions, maybe even flat out lies, they are almost always borne out of some hardship the group had to endure–perhaps recently, perhaps in the distant past–at the hands of another group. Perhaps that other group simply didn’t care. Perhaps they had no idea the first group was undergoing such hardship. There’s even the possibility that the group claiming to be persecuted hold their prejudices completely on a lie (for example, archaeologists are now saying that the ancient Egyptians never had slaves–but the myth that the ancient Isrealites were freed by Moses from the bonds of slavery would have certainly planted the seeds in the minds of ancient Isrealites of having once been persecuted, and thereby engender certain prejudices towards the allegedly oppressive group). Whether these prejudices are founded on something real and concrete or naively believed because of a lie, they are never brought into existence ex nihilo.

My claim in this thread is that the tit-for-tat approach to resolving the clashes of prejudices never works (except in all out war where you completely annihilate your enemy ← but is that “working”?). At the very least, it is never right. You can’t point to a group and say “they’re the bad guys in this situation” or more to the point: “they started it.” Rather, what we need to do, if we are at all serious about morality, is, first, recognize when we have acquired prejudices of our own, and second, do what we can to rise above them. ← The point here is that we are always going to acquire certain prejudices–no one is immune–sometimes surface prejudices, other times deeply entrenched ones, some we may get over quickly, others may take years–we may go entire years without bearing any ill will or judgements towards other groups and suddenly exposure to certain events or a series of bad experiences instill great prejudices within us. The point is to recognize when this happens–that it has become a prejudice–and to take the implications of that seriously. This is not to say we ignore the ways in which we might have been wronged, or persecuted, or the trauma of bad experiences, but it is to say that there is a difference between having to cope with these wrongs, these persecutions, these traumas, and submitting to a prejudice–a generalization that an entire group of people are inherently bad or wrong, or deserving of some horrible fate, just in virtue of being a member of that group. ← Such a thing is not to be defended, but to be overcome. I wouldn’t even go so far as to say one is wrong to have a prejudice–we are human, we are all susceptible to them–but that we bear the moral responsibility of at least owning up to the fact that we have acquired a prejudice and to exercise at least some effort to rise above it in whatever ways that we can.

^ I think this is the proper response to prejudice–the moral response–not this tit-for-tat game, the who-is-to-blame game, the they-did-it-first game ← that is the road to victim mentality and complete denial of one’s prejudices and dogmatisms. It only sinks our prejudices and dagmatisms deeper and makes them harder to uproot later in life. Rising above our prejudices is strength, it is will power–it is resilience and self-improvement, the will to mental health. The onus is on all groups to recognize this in themselves and to own up to the responsibility to rise above. Only in this way will we remain focused on the only true moral response to the prejudices and dogmatisms we are faced with day to day.

Are you defending voodoo?

What place does it have in our technological age?

No, but nice try. :laughing:

Think of it this way, Gib…

“Being a multifaceted thinker”, perhaps we should reconsider WW2. Were the Nazis and Jews guilty or innocent and of what? I see a great deal of prejudice involved.

Yes, let’s fight that war all over again just to make sure.

It took an extreme degree of struggle, suffering, and death to silence the madness of magic. Do you really want to see that battle fought all over again?

Of course people react quickly when an old war issue is resurrected to invite atrocity. Yes it is prejudice, “pre-judging”. Yes, it might be biased or completely false. But who is going to stay calm while choosing how many Nazis, Jews, fanatics, and by standers are to be sacrificed for the cause of curiosity?

Magic is the proposition that science should not exist at all, exterminated, just as that panel proclaimed. There is no half way, compromise position. They propose war and extermination of their adversary. Given time, there is no doubt that they would literally murder any who challenge their reign of magic, fore magic requires ignorance.

James,

When I imagine the science faculty member recognizing his dogmatisms and then trying to rise above his prejudice, I imagine him saying to himself: Well, I am a scientist, and as a scientist, it is my duty to investigate claims (of the supernatural or otherwise) scientifically. That means that I should be open to submitting the claims to scientific experiment and judge the validity of those claims based upon the results I find. I think this would have been a much better response (assuming the rules allow for it) than “It’s not true.” ← The latter can give off the impression of dogmatism, whereas the former not only doesn’t but is highly likely to be the most effective way of silencing the fallists. If the science faculty member is right–that magic and witchcraft are just not true–what better way than to prove it’s not true, and embarrass your competition, than to subject such claims to the scientific method.

I’m not saying the science faculty ought to give in to the dogmas of the fallist–that’s just as bad, obviously–but just to be self-aware enough of when your claims and opinions are based on a prejudice and when they’re not.

This is first and foremost a private matter: one comes to grips with one’s own prejudices in one’s own head. What to say in public, or what to do, is an entirely different matter, and I’ll be the first to admit, there might still be some utility in defending a prejudice–saying “It’s not true”–in public even though you know you’re being dogmatic. I think at least with enough self-awareness and self-honesty, you can put yourself into a better position to make wiser decisions. It allows one to investigate instead of taking things for granted, and investigation always leads one closer to the truth.

Suspending one’s prejudices and dogmatisms does not mean granting the opposition anything they want to claim solely on the basis that “we don’t want to be dogmatic”. ← That’s not a very wise move at all. We certainly don’t want to fight WW2 all over again. But I do have faith in man’s ability to investigate claims in order to get at the truth, and with the truth make better information decisions about how to address your opposition. But man won’t do that if he sticks to his prejudices dogmatically, thinking to himself: I already know the truth.

But, Gib, his “investigating claims scientifically” ARE his “prejudices”. The Magi demand that no such investigation be performed nor allowed to be heard.

The boy giving the quick comment was merely “cutting to the point” of the question that had been proposed, “Why don’t you white people accept our black magic”. The answer was given, “Because it isn’t true”. How the white boy knew that it wasn’t true was not asked, nor allowed to be discussed.

If you want to call that a prejudice, it’s certainly a different prejudice from “it’s not true”.

I’m not sure what transpired in that session beyond what was shown in the clip–whether or not “it should be investigated scientifically” would have been accepted as an appropriate response by the fallists–but my point applies to scientific dogmatism (and other dogmatisms) well beyond what we see in the video. I’ve encountered it personally many times: the tendency of scientists (materialists, atheists, etc.) to simply assert in dogmatic fashion “supernatural claims are false.”

If you’re right that the fallists aren’t even open to a scientific investigation into the claims, then there’s not a lot the science faculty can do to address them appropriately. They either submit to their dogmatism (which, as I said earlier, is just as much a prejudice as “it’s not true”) or be banned for violating the rules.

My point is that rising above one’s prejudices is to be open to investigation and the gathering of information before rashly coming to a conclusion dogmatically. If the fallists aren’t allowing them to do that, then there’s no way for the science faculty to demonstrate their ability to rise above their prejudices. (I might even say they might as well be dogmatic in their claims.)

He may have had his reasons, he may not have, but again, I’m addressing scientific dogmatisms and other kinds of dogmatisms well beyond what’s seen in this video. My own personal encounters with scientists, atheists, materialists, etc., tell me that there is a tendency to dismiss claims of magic and the supernatural out of hand without any consideration to investigating the claim.

The ONLY distinction between science and magic is the “Scientific Method” of investigation before belief. There have been countless science experiments to verify any form of magic (such as ESP). To date, ALL hypotheses proposing ANY kind of magic have failed with only the exceptions of Newton’s forces (strictly magical superstition), Einstein’s ontological Relativity (merely a different way of conceptualizing the magic of how things are working - no proposal as to why), and Quantum Physics (an ontology proposition of mysterious particle magic based upon statistical analysis).

In a sense, Science is all about magic already. The only distinction is whether one is to believe due to experimental data or believe merely due to rumor. What the racists are proposing is that all white man’s experimental data be deleted so as to establish belief in black man’s rumor based magic.

It is an attack on the very idea of belief via investigation, of “The Scientific Method”. The whole proposal that the Scientific Method is merely a white man’s prejudice is itself absurd. It has nothing at all to do with prejudice and very little to do with race. They want a race war rigged to allow blacks to be the super-race.

That’s simply not true. I can easily withhold belief about supernatural claims until I’ve done a thorough scientific investigation (after which point it ceases to be “supernatural” and becomes a natural phenomenon in need of further investigation).

What you’re talking about are attitudes–the attitude of withhold belief until a scientific investigation has been done versus the attitude of believing based on rumor. One can hold both attitudes in regards to either natural claims or supernatural claims.

I personally don’t know this. I’ve been told this, but to believe it because I’ve been told would be an example of the “magical” attitude of believing rumor before I’ve seen the evidence with my own eyes.

And this is exactly the prejudice I’ve been talking about. Suppose for a second the fallists were right–that Western science was based on political hegemony. It wouldn’t be the first time an authoritative group spread lies and covered up the truth, and generally had the masses brainwashed into believing whatever they said was the truth. If that were the case, you’d hear them saying exactly the same thing anyway: ALL hypotheses proposing ANY kind of magic have failed.

How is an individual–like me, like you–supposed to know the difference between genuine scientific reports and political “truth” served to the masses in order to preserve a hegemony and make the voice of the opposition sound like crackpotery and insanity? I’ve learnt long ago to be wary of claims to the effect of “They’ve proven that…” or “Scientists have discovered…” Who are these scientists, who are “they”? The only thing I truly believe is what I’ve seen personally.

I agree with the bold part. However, I’m still out on what exactly the fallists want (perhaps you have some other source than just the video). They obviously don’t want dogmatic claims like “it’s not true” but I’d still like to see their response to the proposal that a scientific investigation be conducted, using the traditional “Western” scientific method. I personally don’t know how they’d react to that.

That certain is precisely true.

That is exactly what Science IS and has always been.

For Example:
The thought of a magical force extending out into space and grabbing hold of the Moon to keep it spinning around the Earth was pure supernatural superstition. But through the “Scientific Method”, it became “scientific fact” - eventual prejudice favoring an unseen supernatural force that became a “natural phenomenon”, eventually called “Force of Gravity”.

Prof Richard Feynman professed that Quantum Mechanics can never be understood, declaring it to be total magic (incapable of being understood).

ALL of Science is based on scientific method of investigating magical phenomena. Theories involving magical principles become scientific fact when experiments fail to disprove the magic. The only opponent to Scientific Method is the urge to not experiment or scrutinize too greatly - believe in rumor.

And Gib, you personally can only believe something through rumor or rationale (faith or reasoning). And you aren’t very confident in your own rationale. But then you aren’t very confident of rumor either. Guess where that leaves you.

Well then, believe it or not, we’re in agreement with each other.

Though I’m not sure everyone understands the terms “magic” and “scientific”/“natural” the same way. I think a lot of people understand magic as sort of a “second order” to nature–one that must trump the natural order of things in order to manifest, but imposes its own order in its place (Harry Potter waves his magic wand and utters “leviosa”, the table starts floating in the air). ← Conceivably, this could be investigated scientifically.

With empiricism.

And who says I’m not confident in my rationale?

But anyway, I was hoping to tie this discussion back to the main punchline of the OP: what is our moral obligation when we recognize that we hold a prejudice? The actual video of the science faculty vs. the fallists was just an example of what got me started on this line of thinking. It wasn’t intended to be the center piece around which this discussion revolved (but it is relevant, so I’m not dismissing discussion on it).

Any thoughts James?