Is Trump merely a figurehead?

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Is trump merely a figurehead?

1 Trump is merely a puppet, masked for unresolved and hidden programs for and by ideological construction.
4
50%
2 Trump is not a figurehead, but a real force in a renewed effort to make America great again
3
38%
3 Undecided
1
13%
 
Total votes : 8

Re: Is Trump merely a figurehead?

Postby UrGod » Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:13 pm

Chomsky is a walking seizure, as someone once said. The man is clearly deranged beyond all hope of redemption, certainly beyond the grasp of philosophy.
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Re: Is Trump merely a figurehead?

Postby Meno_ » Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:30 pm

Wyld wrote:Chomsky is a walking seizure, as someone once said. The man is clearly deranged beyond all hope of redemption, certainly beyond the grasp of philosophy.



How so, can you show how this goes down? But regardless even apart from this,and the very few votes , the 50-50 split may present the way this issue could validate the exclusionary way Trump divides the populace. There is a qualitative difference from the quantitative numbers, so even this bare minimum showing, there may be some early hypothetical assumtions of a nation.

No one really knows except TRUMP, and my gut tells me that when he is merely playing the field m
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Re: Is Trump merely a figurehead?

Postby UrGod » Fri Feb 10, 2017 4:30 am

Every major election is split. So what? America has a two-party system, just like you have two halves of a whole brain in your head. It works like that. Trump didn't make it that way, he didn't make people polarized.
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Re: Is Trump merely a figurehead?

Postby Xunzian » Fri Feb 10, 2017 9:30 am

Pence is infinitely worse than Trump. If you have a choice between a wildcard like Huey Long or another W, you choose Huey Long. It's still probably going to be bad, but occasionally stack overflow errors happen so maybe there is hope?
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Re: Is Trump merely a figurehead?

Postby Meno_ » Sat Feb 11, 2017 4:51 am

There is gossip on the street such as Trump hates being POTUS, he is unintelligent, the people who have voted him in are beginning to feel cheated.

There may be a switch to this election, and this is not your ordinary conspiracy. And it goes down like this.

Trump was a very long shot to succeed, and his election was meant to deceive, but with a deception to which the sub normals could not rise to to realize this.

In fact, the guy is so bad, that his getting everything backward, like his cleaning up the swamp, while he is bringing it in big time; pays vindication to the liberal motto : I'm ok, you're ok. So when the group who understand only wrongly aligned, controversial and obtuse rhetoric, expecting a wolf, but seeing only a sheep in deceptive clothing, they simply deduce this to the liberally guised framers, who put up some awesome barriers. Their well meaning hero has, in spite of these barriers, ubdauntedly fights on against all odds. He is a futuristic angina of opposites, a unifier, a non aligned, larger than life superhero.

If he succeeds, he will, instead of cleaning swamps, will have ushered in new opportunities to get around anti NWO fans, and instead, will down the line have everyone scratch their heads , thinking what a genius Trump is.

Actually, in a study of presidential IQ's, he comes in near the bottom of the list. However, this is only a few weeks into the administration of the most perplexing president ever, reflecting perhaps the need for such a man, during the most perplexing times we find ourselves in.

It's all about the ideology, or lack of.
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Re: Is Trump merely a figurehead?

Postby Meno_ » Sat Feb 11, 2017 5:00 am

Wyld wrote:Every major election is split. So what? America has a two-party system, just like you have two halves of a whole brain in your head. It works like that. Trump didn't make it that way, he didn't make people polarized.


Are you implying some sort of bio-political process, which determines or is determined by an ideological dialectic? Is the dialectical conflict and search for resolution an intrinsic chemical process, whereby to which socially opposing views play kinship to? Perhaps there is some vague nterplay there, but not nearly one which could be demonstrated as casual. Or maybe not?
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Re: Is Trump merely a figurehead?

Postby Uccisore » Sat Feb 11, 2017 5:15 pm

jerkey wrote:
Wyld wrote:Every major election is split. So what? America has a two-party system, just like you have two halves of a whole brain in your head. It works like that. Trump didn't make it that way, he didn't make people polarized.


Are you implying some sort of bio-political process, which determines or is determined by an ideological dialectic? Is the dialectical conflict and search for resolution an intrinsic chemical process, whereby to which socially opposing views play kinship to? Perhaps there is some vague nterplay there, but not nearly one which could be demonstrated as casual. Or maybe not?


He's implying that if you've been paying attention to politics for longer than 8 months, you'd know that a close election doesn't require a fanciful explanation, it's just a normal thing that happens. That's it. It's pretty straightforward. If you have a two party system, and one of the parties can't reliably win half the time or so, it will simply reform until it can, or go away.
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Re: Is Trump merely a figurehead?

Postby Meno_ » Sat Feb 11, 2017 7:08 pm

It would appear, any sense of a normal process has been thrown out with the bath water, so that view is almost too simple. That's exactly the battle cry of the simple People, who mistook simple Trumpism slogans for the real thing. Instead they got the reel thing an atrophied version of some reality show in the sky, which even now remains in Trump's list of unforgivable sins for not winning an Emmy.
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Re: Is Trump merely a figurehead?

Postby Uccisore » Sat Feb 11, 2017 9:44 pm

jerkey wrote:It would appear, any sense of a normal process has been thrown out with the bath water, so that view is almost too simple.


It only appears that way to a child. To the rest of us, a close election followed by the losing party being enraged and beating a drum about it being the beginning of the end is *completely fucking normal*. If the losing party happens to be the DNC, you can add to that the allegation that the elecction system needs to be changed on the basis of the fact that sometimes they don't win.

The only abnormal thing about this election is that Trump managed to win with all that was arrayed against him.
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Re: Is Trump merely a figurehead?

Postby Meno_ » Sat Feb 11, 2017 11:01 pm

Trump's constituency are like well mannered children , brought up on the idea that if ideas and politics are conserved in the manner in which they were believed to be through, passed along by so called unchanging and proper behavior, we can make it despite the
compelling need for change.

A pluralistic society need not cast a glance to the age
old discussions going on between Parmenides and Heraclitus, as to a static view of a rightful society, or one predicated on constant change should constitute the ideal city-state.


Or the same conservatives may look foreward into a post humanistic world view, where they may ask
whether the dots are connectable as well. Can they?


Hardly, except by revising the data, or the rules by which historical revisions become fodder to every
Nuevo politician, who feels in himself imbued with unplanted oats, sustained levels of testesterone, usually with disastrous inauthenticity leading to mass hysteria. Once the suppression is lifted, alas usually
too late, it is over.
.

The multi ethnic dictum is not new, it has always
been the model for the world, ever since immigrants
became the source of populations in the US.

To restrict immigration now, where the rationale for it
simply does not exist, in the light of being able to
weed out undesirables, reduces the idea of the mix toward cleansing, genetic purification , narrow nationalism, where even a Germany of the 2nd Reich,
the arbiter and proponent of haute kultur this trend is
resurfacing, based on no modern equivalent, not going against the modern emerged notions of socio-political science. Some may vehemently disagree here, and within explicable rationale. But such a disagreement is oft a sublimely conflated retrogressive desire to return into a Romsntic idiom, more personal then social. There simply, there is no society on earth, where reactionary ideas can flourish. If, as in this case, it may, given Trump's oratory skills and drawing personality, America may be privy to such, given its recurrent political naïveté.


So what can the deductions made to adults instead of well wishing children, totally unaware of the mistake
of trying to reverse a necessary trend? That it is
thinking alone that history could necessitate a trend which always reduces great empires to humility, and reality? Is such reality is unacceptable, can a failed reality show, pertain to the supression of a failed and unappreciation of a great artistic preforming genius?
Again perhaps. But what if the the outcome does not correlate to the result? Then the center will cave, certainly, and there are only to avenues to buttress this weakness: by an outward push of invading others's sensibility, or an internal purge. Both may be attempted, simultaneously, sometimes not so subtly, by an imminent attack on the system of judicial oversight.

That the greatness of America has always consisted in its ideals and not of its affectations of an indolent and misinformed populace, which can continue to hold in the mistaken belief that it's standard of living will always tend to be over and above of every other
society on earth?


Sure some orator can kiss ass to these delusional children, who have declared history dead, nothing at
all worthy of any kind of study, where, the only sure thing
is , like in a snail, to revert into the shallow walled safety of its own shell, and wait for the magic time, when they come out, and experience Abe's the Oeggy
Sue

Peggy Sue type

naïveté of an era of shallow and naive innocence, driving candy colored cars, and disputing what effects they have caused? The Ugly American did come back
full blast, and the Vanishing Adolescent has left the
scene to retract into an idiotic
show of a childish reality, where stern Papa can fire at whim those whom he merely dislikes? A return to
the affects and probable thr effects of a pure late 19
, early 20 th century capitalism, where things were horrible, except the good old boys who looked and acted the part?


Sure, why not, if morality and amorality will become the grey area where one man's goose is
unrecognizable from another's gander. Sure, why not,
if what is promised, is what one gets, but is there a silly assumption which can assure such, where the handwriting is on the opposite may be the case?


All signs point in that direction right now, and it may get worse, a lot worse. Where deeper the doubt
surfaces, the more the denials will cause search for a
target whereupon these denials will target their forces, to escape the awful realization of self doubt?


Is this exactly what children do, every time, knowing full well the consequences of trying to hold their elders responsible, and the futility of lashing out at
them.


Is it simply a very clear difference between what is normal here, or abnormal?


Are those daring to question sanity akin to repressed children, trying to get rid of individual belief in favor of
what is politically correct among some undefined political elite?


The questions have to be asked to pursue the American Dream.
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Re: Is Trump merely a figurehead?

Postby Uccisore » Sat Feb 11, 2017 11:31 pm

jerkey wrote:Trump's constituency are like well mannered children ,


I've seen Trump supporters accused of a lot of things, but never 'well mannered'.

brought up on the idea that if ideas and politics are conserved in the manner in which they were believed to be through, passed along by so called unchanging and proper behavior, we can make it despite the
compelling need for change.


Right. Trump supporters voted for a billionaire with zero political experience instead of the dozen or so established D.C. mainstream politicians he was running against because they don't want change.

Yeah that seems right.

To restrict immigration now, where the rationale for it
simply does not exist,


The rationale is very similar to the rationale Obama had when he did the same damned thing in 2011.


in the light of being able to
weed out undesirables,


The restrictions are based on the reality that we actually can't do this. The 7 countries the executive order focused on are two chaotic or corrupt to have reliable criminal or medical records of people wanting to emmigrate from there.


You aren't making even the slightest, tiniest effort to understand why your political enemies do the things they do, and yet you are trying to conclude all sorts of things about their mentality, their secret motivations, and how they view the world.

Did it occur to you, for even one second, that you may want to ask conservatives questions about who they are and what they want, before deciding you know?
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Re: Is Trump merely a figurehead?

Postby Meno_ » Sat Feb 11, 2017 11:50 pm

William Buckley was the only sanest and readable conservative I ever subscribed to. He could have been a great president, IF he wanted to. But of course, he had the manners not to run.
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Re: Is Trump merely a figurehead?

Postby Meno_ » Sat Feb 11, 2017 11:57 pm

Uccisore,

There is some truth in what you are saying. Trump is not all or nothing, he will modify his immigration executive order. But that is not ideology. Ideology can not be compromised, and his handlers know it. That is what is at stake, the ideals upon which this country was built upon, there is no two ways about it. Conservatives by definition stick to their guns. If he compromises, he is more like a socialist then someone who abides by the edicts of his ideas and class. He will betray them. No doubt.
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Re: Is Trump merely a figurehead?

Postby Xunzian » Sun Feb 12, 2017 8:17 am

I intensely dislike the narrative that has been present since the primary where Trump is some sort of unusual event.

He's a bog-standard Republican. Professionally, he's not a politician so there are a lot of gaps in his early governance. Once he got elected, I don't think anyone expected anything different. Rhetorically, he's a populist. That's not new for modern Republicans. Reagan and W used a lot of populist rhetoric and the Tea Party was a populist movement.

But other than that, from appointments to executive orders, it's all been pretty standard Republican fair. That's terrifying to me because I find the Republican Party terrifying. But it's not new or strange. It's all been pretty much what you'd expect.

There is some whiplash because Obama expanded W's precedent on executive orders (set in the aftermath of 9/11) and basically used those to govern for the past 4 years. Different executive, different executive orders. It's disastrous because the current executive wants disastrous things. But it's not like we metaphorically shat the bed. We've been sleeping on a mattress made out of shit for a long time.

We're still dealing with the aftereffects from Reagan, especially it's shit-show of an apotheosis in W. That said, Clinton and Obama's misguided neoliberalism were bandaids on a gunshot wound. But those bandaids were good for much of the donor class so that's how you get disasters like Hillary. Just like how Reagan's and W's donor classes benefited from their reign.

If we need have masters, I think the choice is clear. But is our imagination so poor?
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Re: Is Trump merely a figurehead?

Postby Uccisore » Sun Feb 12, 2017 8:33 am

Xunzian wrote:
But other than that, from appointments to executive orders, it's all been pretty standard Republican fair. That's terrifying to me because I find the Republican Party terrifying. But it's not new or strange. It's all been pretty much what you'd expect.


There's a difference between how Trump acts and what Trump does. The unique, shocking, etc. part is all in the former. Like you said, what he's done now that he's President is mostly what you'd expect from any Republican. His campaign was unorthodox, and his background is unorthodox. But not what he's doing.

There is some whiplash because Obama expanded W's precedent on executive orders (set in the aftermath of 9/11) and basically used those to govern for the past 4 years. Different executive, different executive orders. It's disastrous because the current executive wants disastrous things. But it's not like we metaphorically shat the bed.


Well, one difference there as I pointed out to PK is that Obama governed with executive orders for the last four years because the House and Senate were against him and he couldn't get anything he wanted passed. Trump is passing executive orders that are in line with what he campaigned on immediately before and have congressional approval. I don't know why Trump's immigration restriction was done as an executive order and not a bill, but it mostly certainly was not because he was worried about it being shut down in Congress.

But those bandaids were good for much of the donor class so that's how you get disasters like Hillary.


That's the other thing that's left out of Jerkey's analysis. He wants to deconstruct how amazing (I guess) it is that Trump won a divided election- but Jesus Christ, anybody could have beaten Hillary. Not just because she was the worst possible candidate, but because she ran the worst possible campaign; was a continual no show, had no positions other than to remind people of her vagina and to insult people who supported the other candidate. Had three seperate FBI investigations into her, two of which were well known to the DNC long before her nomination was inevitable. I don't like Trump much. If the DNC had put up anybody else, even Bernie, I probably would have stayed home from the polls. But I'd crawl through broken glass to vote not-Hillary.
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Re: Is Trump merely a figurehead?

Postby Xunzian » Sun Feb 12, 2017 8:36 am

So what?

This is one of my favorite exercises to use.

"So what?"

You said a lot of things. But

"So what?"
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Re: Is Trump merely a figurehead?

Postby Uccisore » Sun Feb 12, 2017 8:47 am

So, this is just another election, and the outrage/elation/exaggeration surrounding it is mostly unwarranted.
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Re: Is Trump merely a figurehead?

Postby Xunzian » Sun Feb 12, 2017 8:55 am

Like I agree with a lot of what you said. I was very alienated from the Hillary campaign because as a leftist I was not welcome on that scene. Coming at it from the left, Hillary and her cabal of Neoliberals were very sore winners. That makes sense because what Hillary learned from Obama was that you can't even allow anything other than token resistance. Enter Bernie Sanders. I've loved the man for a long time. My college roommate had a poster of Brittany Spears with a snake and Bernie Sanders on his wall. That roommate reminds me of you, Ucci. We disagreed about a great many things but he influenced my philosophy in a substantial way. He was also the best man at my wedding. Good dude. Anyway, Bernie was supposed to be "red meat" for "the base" like Kucinich and Sharpton. They aren't actually going to win but they do a lot to motivate core constituencies that vote. it's an easy strategy for a coronation primary.

Didn't work out that way and things got weird. Hillary's reaganesque vision of social justice was that what we need are more black and women CEOs and the fundamentally healthy system will heal itself. That vision does great for generating donations but so what? I'm from the Midwest. That vision ain't gonna sell there.

Given the choice between "obvious con man" and "actively hates you" I can't blame my midwestern brothers for opting to stay home. It was a bad decision and things are going to get a lot worse for them. I'm very lucky that I'll be mostly insulated from that (though, working internationally, things have gotten very interesting and not in a good way) but a couple of tens of thousands of dollars isn't going to hurt me either way. But having lived in the midwest, that shit is life-or-death.

I always thought Juan Bosche was a bit of a joke but his whole Pentagonization theory, if you accept the internal colonization parts, is basically the best model we have right now. That's a scary and bad thing.
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Re: Is Trump merely a figurehead?

Postby Xunzian » Sun Feb 12, 2017 9:00 am

Uccisore wrote:So, this is just another election, and the outrage/elation/exaggeration surrounding it is mostly unwarranted.


No, Trump is really bad. The "so what" of Trump is hard to deal with because it is so vast. Tillerson is basically the only one I'm OK with. He's a shitshow but "to the victors go the spoils". We elected a man who wants to sell the country to Russia so we'll sell the country to Russia. I get it.

Perry "abolish the DoE" for sec of DoE is bad. Saying the solution is folding nukes into the military (nukes is pretty much all the DoE does) is a terrifying idea. But it's the same overall. You have people heading departments dedicated to destroying those departments.

Republicans are straight up evil dude. Opposing them makes sense. It is 100% warrented. Always has been. That he is a standard Republican isn't shocking. That just means we have to oppose him more.
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Re: Is Trump merely a figurehead?

Postby Uccisore » Sun Feb 12, 2017 4:42 pm

Xunzian wrote: Good dude. Anyway, Bernie was supposed to be "red meat" for "the base" like Kucinich and Sharpton. They aren't actually going to win but they do a lot to motivate core constituencies that vote. it's an easy strategy for a coronation primary.


Depends on who you're putting the intentionality on the 'supposed to' there. Maybe he was supposed to be that for the people in his camp that actually wanted him to win, but for the DNC, he was supposed to generation donations from millennials and others that would be either supporting the Green party or else completely disaffected- and that's what happened. He was never intended to win or even do well. That the DNC transparently shafted him, then put the person most responsible for that shafting in charge of the HRC campaign right in front of everybody certainly didn't help.

Republicans are straight up evil dude. Opposing them makes sense. It is 100% warrented. Always has been. That he is a standard Republican isn't shocking. That just means we have to oppose him more.


That's the kind of attitude that will continue the DNC's transition to being a regional party.
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Re: Is Trump merely a figurehead?

Postby Meno_ » Sun Feb 12, 2017 6:21 pm

The outcome is yet, still not anything but a foregone conclusion. The fact that his popularity is sinking to outrageously low levels, even if it could be ascribed as a rough beginning, is a tough sign.

That in the classic sense popularity is really important only in the sense, that it becomes increasingly a factor with the approach of congressional elections, bodes badly with the notion of the coming oligarchy.
The attack on the judiciary is really an intelligent move for this purpose, because this president is still testing executive boundaries, and this test is also a kind of stretching of them in the eyes of the public.

So the outrage is legitimate, as Uccisore questioned it, but there is a qualitative change going on there, where public opinion is slowly shifting toward some hidden center, which neither Bernie , or bad voting methods, or anything else can upset.

It really devolves the whole epic scene into the conceptual denigration of representative democracy, into the must to do, essential manifest destiny of the protectors. What they are protecting, however, is not the beliefs based on the ideals upon which we stand, neither the accustomed standards of living in the US, but a notion of prescription having to do with control, and/or the the fear of loss of it. It is social control which becomes this run away train, this is why Trump is a survivor, and will continue to be.

The bottom line is the vacuum created by the failure of Communistic ideology left a huge gap, which both Putin and Trump know to be an unstoppable political machine.

Whether it will be stopped, depends on the competency of regional DNC machines to create a newer grass roots machine, by re energizing existing albeit fading structures.
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Re: Is Trump merely a figurehead?

Postby Uccisore » Sun Feb 12, 2017 8:05 pm

jerkey wrote:The outcome is yet, still not anything but a foregone conclusion. The fact that his popularity is sinking to outrageously low levels, even if it could be ascribed as a rough beginning, is a tough sign.


It could be a tough sign if that was actually happening, but it isn't.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_ ... rack_feb10

Again, when your argument begins with not really knowing the facts, the rest doesn't matter so much.

EDIT: Here it is broken down by executive order:

http://uk.businessinsider.com/trump-tra ... ?r=US&IR=T
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Re: Is Trump merely a figurehead?

Postby Meno_ » Mon Feb 13, 2017 12:00 am

Rasmussen is certainly the most biased outfit there is, so it's not a good guide toward facts.
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Re: Is Trump merely a figurehead?

Postby Meno_ » Mon Feb 13, 2017 12:20 am

Some people will base their facts on really unusual things, like I was at the checkout at the Supermarket the other day, and saw some really pro-Trump cover stories, but reminded myself that the publisher of thr Enquier is a Trump buddy. My God, every prediction of flip flop has come true, the China reversion toward a one China deal, per Trump conversation via telephone with the Chinese leader, to res ending e erything from NATO, where he will admit Bellaruse, to revision on Israel, and even the problem with unfair trade practices by Japanese automakers. The wall deal is still up, there is second look at trade agreements, and the EU is convinced the Iran nuke deal will hold, this gathered from some leaked behind closed door consultations on high diplomatic levels.
Immigration is stalling, and a new presidential order is in the works, modified. Mexico is going ahead with plans of building cheap American cars by Mexican labor, with US automakers defying any presidential pressure there. Nordstrom is discontinuing the fashion line of Ivanka, and the list goes on.

What does all this speak of the poor befuddled WASP who voted him in? Of course denial is a very powerful tool in the hands of adepts who can lie on any issue one day to the next, and the corruption has never been more obvious then the supposed D.C. swamp which was to be cleaned up. I am afraid it's deception to further the grandiosity of the personality to hinder any transparency into the workings of corporate America,
. It is a very clever ruse for the power brokers to get in through the back door.

But, and here is the clincher, there was nothing nearly as effective , ideologically, then this, and all is justified in times of ideological confusion and war.

That this is/was a very sophisticated computerized simulation, I have no doubt. And yes, 1984 is here, and Big Brother IS watching, but it is not Trump, he is a minor player in tweet world, that is all. I am beginning to pity him, with what I agree is unfortunate role for him , stuck in an Iron Maiden , catch 24 situation..He would have been happier brandishing his brands on reality TV.
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Re: Is Trump merely a figurehead?

Postby Uccisore » Mon Feb 13, 2017 12:33 am

jerkey wrote:Rasmussen is certainly the most biased outfit there is, so it's not a good guide toward facts.


At least I have a source. Where did you get your claim about Trump's approval from?

And anyway, Rusmussen leaned more in favor of the GOP in the presidential tracking polls, but the GOP actually won, so apparently they were doing something right.

My second link isn't from Rasmussen, it's from Business Insider. Do you not like them either?

You got a lot to say about how other people choose their sources, but seem shy to reveal your own for some strange reason. You can't exactly quote Huff Po and the New York Times anymore after a rant like that, huh? :(
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Posts: 13235
Joined: Thu Dec 12, 2002 8:14 pm
Location: Deep in the forests of Maine

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