Examining the possibilities for non ideological legislation

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Examining the possibilities for non ideological legislation

Postby Fixed Cross » Thu Dec 26, 2013 5:37 pm

Editing this post. I need to get the principles examined.

    1. All beings are driven by their values. But all beings create their values in the core of their existence.

    2. The core of any being is its value-standard. By this standard it keeps itself in being. This "self-valuing" is the core value which all its other values reflect. 

    3. A life lived according to ones deepest and highest values is a life of the greatest happiness.

    4. Power is the ability to set values and attain them.

    5. Power is there for the taking – for everyone. It will always resist being contained.

    6. Ideologies are systems of pre-set human value. To subscribe to them is to submit to an others power.

    7. The use of any ideology is whatever it accomplishes. There is no unquestionable truth (or value) to any ideology.

    8. Hope is destroyed when the ability to set values is lost. When all values have been predetermined by the outside world, the individual is gone.

    9. Society is its own reward. Society is the interactions of different self-valuings, a rich tapestry of comparable and contrasting values.

    10. Life has no other purpose than to set values and to attain them. All meaning, love, loyalty, goals –

    11. Humans can introduce each other to values – they can not set them for each other.

    12. Humanarchy is the rule of human self-valuing: of free and complete individuals. 

http://www.humanarchy.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=40
Last edited by Fixed Cross on Fri Dec 27, 2013 2:32 pm, edited 13 times in total.
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Re: Open World Society

Postby von Rivers » Thu Dec 26, 2013 7:12 pm

Whatever happened to ol' Gobbo's forum? If it was naturalworldorder.org... it is no longer there. Weren't you one of the dudes there? To the credit of that site, you had Pezer there.

Anyways, are you starting a forum, or a fucking cult? What kind of forum lists its principles? What do you talk about? ---About how you already generally agree?
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Re: Open World Society

Postby Fixed Cross » Thu Dec 26, 2013 7:44 pm

Whatever happened to ol' Gobbo's forum? If it was naturalworldorder.org... it is no longer there. Weren't you one of the dudes there? To the credit of that site, you had Pezer there.

Yes, when Pezer got on that site began to be cool. But Gobbo took it down in anger.

Anyways, are you starting a forum, or a fucking cult? What kind of forum lists its principles? What do you talk about? ---About how you already generally agree?

Seems like a good point, but we already need to agree on a lot to even be able to talk about anything - to talk at all even. We just slightly specify what has been agreed on by most people that we talk to on a daily basis. You don't want to reinvent the wheel every time you build a car.
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Re: Open World Society

Postby Fixed Cross » Thu Dec 26, 2013 7:59 pm

We don't have a religion forum, for example.
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Re: Open World Society

Postby Fixed Cross » Thu Dec 26, 2013 8:21 pm

No actually I am lying, or misrepresenting what it is. I'd simply like to isolate a certain type of discourse and make it more powerful. BTL worked very well for the people who wanted to develop those thoughts, now that group has grown and we need something less hidden to develop the same breed of thoughts. I notice their influence all around and I think, genuinely believe that it's what the general educated public needs to sink its teeth in.

So do you agree with the principles?
Last edited by Fixed Cross on Thu Dec 26, 2013 8:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Open World Society

Postby Uccisore » Thu Dec 26, 2013 8:25 pm

Lists of principles like this always make me a little nervous, because of the pattern they always follow.

Precepts 1-3 are always abundantly obvious things that nobody can disagree with - humans have two legs, the sun is hot, truth is better than falsehood. But by the time you get to Precept 11, it's like "And that's why we need One World Government devoted to the transference of all human consciousness into machines."

This one isn't as brazen as all that, but still.

Anti-ideology is a nice position to have. You'll see me advocating similar now and then. But it's a dangerous position, too. Bonapartism was anti-ideological. Most cults of personality are, or claim to be. Precepts 6, 8 and 9 in particular seem to be the type that could lead to the bad kind if anti-ideology- the anti-ideology that ends up telling people how to live and what sorts of associations they are allowed to make, suspiciously like an ideology.
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Re: Open World Society

Postby Sauwelios » Thu Dec 26, 2013 8:29 pm

TO ME HUMANARCHY MEANS PHILOSOPHICAL SUPREMACY.
"Someone may object that the successful revolt against the universal and homogeneous state could have no other effect than that the identical historical process which has led from the primitive horde to the final state will be repeated. But would such a repetition of the process--a new lease of life for man's humanity--not be preferable to the indefinite continuation of the inhuman end? Do we not enjoy every spring although we know the cycle of the seasons, although we know that winter will come again?" (Leo Strauss, "Restatement on Xenophon's Hiero".)
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Re: Open World Society

Postby Fixed Cross » Thu Dec 26, 2013 8:31 pm

I'll agree it's very difficult to formulate anti-ideological code of ethics and truth... it's almost a contradiction.
Still I think the list is quite un-forceful as to what it demands.

Could you explain how the precepts you mention could be dangerous, could be interpreted to become ideology?
The list can be improved, certainly, as well as added to. 12 is not some magic number.
Last edited by Fixed Cross on Thu Dec 26, 2013 8:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Open World Society

Postby von Rivers » Thu Dec 26, 2013 8:36 pm

Sauwelios wrote:TO ME HUMANARCHY MEANS PHILOSOPHICAL SUPREMACY.


Calm down, son.
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Re: Open World Society

Postby von Rivers » Thu Dec 26, 2013 8:40 pm

This is hilarious... I just looked at the forum, and they have a subforum with a rule that every poster must post in ALL CAPITAL LETTERS. It looks like they are shouting the entire time. What a ridiculous rule! That cracked me up...


...What did proper nouns ever do to you? Huh, Sauwelios?
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Re: Open World Society

Postby phyllo » Thu Dec 26, 2013 9:36 pm

von Rivers wrote:This is hilarious... I just looked at the forum, and they have a subforum with a rule that every poster must post in ALL CAPITAL LETTERS. It looks like they are shouting the entire time. What a ridiculous rule! That cracked me up...


...What did proper nouns ever do to you? Huh, Sauwelios?
Yeah, hilarious. :lol:
Sauwelios wrote:
THE GREEKS AND ROMANS WROTE IN CAPITALS. I CONNECT THAT FACT WITH THIS IDEA:

"A SENSE FOR AND A DELIGHT IN NUANCES (—THE REAL MARK OF MODERNITY), IN THAT WHICH IS NOT GENERAL, RUNS COUNTER TO THE DRIVE THAT DELIGHTS AND EXCELS IN GRASPING THE TYPICAL: LIKE THE GREEK TASTE OF THE BEST PERIOD. THERE IS AN OVERPOWERING OF THE FULLNESS OF LIFE IN IT; MEASURE BECOMES MASTER; AT BOTTOM THERE IS THAT CALM OF THE STRONG SOUL THAT MOVES SLOWLY AND FEELS REPUGNANCE TOWARD WHAT IS TOO LIVELY. THE GENERAL RULE, THE LAW, IS HONORED AND EMPHASIZED; THE EXCEPTION, CONVERSELY, IS SET ASIDE, THE NUANCE OBLITERATED. THE FIRM, POWERFUL, SOLID, THE LIFE THAT REPOSES BROAD AND MAJESTIC AND CONCEALS ITS STRENGTH—THAT IS WHAT 'PLEASES'; I.E., THAT CORRESPONDS TO WHAT ONE THINKS OF ONESELF." (NIETZSCHE, THE WILL TO POWER, KAUFMANN EDITION, SECTION 819 WHOLE.)


IN OTHER WORDS, CAPITALS ARE MASCULINE WHEREAS LOWER CASE LETTERS ARE FEMININE.

Fixed Cross wrote :
YES LET THIS BE THE INNER SANCUM OF THE POLITICS OF THE GODS WHO USED TO BE MAD BUT WHO WAS WAKING UP. PEOPLE WILL PERCEIVE THIS CAPITALIZATION AS MADNESS AND THE GENDERING AS TRIVIAL. BUT IT IS SIGNIFICANT. WE NEED TO LEARN TO WRITE SENTENCES THAT MERIT BEING WRITTEN IN CAPITALS.

I FIND THAT THE ITALICS YOU HAVE USED IN THE NIETZSCHE QUOTE ARE TOO FEMININE. I RECOMMEND THE STYLES BOLD OR UNDERLINE FOR EMPHASIS.


What next? The letter 'o' is too feminine to be used by a man? :D
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Re: Open World Society

Postby Uccisore » Thu Dec 26, 2013 9:40 pm

Fixed Cross wrote:Could you explain how the precepts you mention could be dangerous, could be interpreted to become ideology?
The list can be improved, certainly, as well as added to. 12 is not some magic number.


Precept 6 seems to have an undercurrent of "A real man wouldn't put himself in such a position", creating the opportunity for a nationalized Right-Thinking-Man.

Precept 8 seems to be setting up grounds to indict religions, governments, and other civic organizations as doing evil to society, regardless of detail or intent, which could be a call to censure.

Precept 9 ...eh, maybe I don't have a problem with precept 9. First time I read it, it seemed to be encouraging participation in a Grand Project, but it doesn't seem that way now.
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Re: Open World Society

Postby Fixed Cross » Thu Dec 26, 2013 10:06 pm

Uccisore -

--- Ideologies are systems of pre-set human value. To subscribe to them is to submit to an others power.
Uccisore wrote:Precept 6 seems to have an undercurrent of "A real man wouldn't put himself in such a position", creating the opportunity for a nationalized Right-Thinking-Man.

I am glad you feel that way but - that is not implicit in the text. I do agree with it though. So maybe it's in there. Do you disagree?

--- Hope is destroyed when the ability to set values is lost. When all values have been predetermined by the outside world, the individual is gone.
Precept 8 seems to be setting up grounds to indict religions, governments, and other civic organizations as doing evil to society, regardless of detail or intent, which could be a call to censure.

It is meant to encourage scrutinizing all organizations that dictate values, certainly. I think that is called for right now, very much. So... do you disagree? If so, why?

Indictment doesn't mean Pol Pot.
I should probably - no really add a statement that we don't mean to violently overthrow anything. I don't want to be associated with the Joker.

--- Society is its own reward. Society is the interactions of different self-valuings, a rich tapestry of comparable and contrasting values.
Precept 9 ...eh, maybe I don't have a problem with precept 9. First time I read it, it seemed to be encouraging participation in a Grand Project, but it doesn't seem that way now.

It's not so much a call for that as a recognition of it. Mankind, this entire civilization is a grand project, sustained by itself, and we have to constantly examine the laws that it creates for itself, test its behaviors to our values.

It's inevitable that a world government is constantly on the verge of being formed, but that is a formality. Within its boundaries, which are set by an extremely general consensus called 'indifference', a form of human recognition is constantly trying to assert itself. This is what philosophy is, and psychology in its wake - a counter force to strictly economically driven politics. The mistake has been to present the economy as the driving, "Masculine" force and the philosophy as the "Feminine", receiving.

Well not so much a mistake as simply the fact that man was too confused by this whole 'having a brain'-thing to possess his own ethics, to write philosophy because he exists, not because he wonders why he exists.
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Re: Open World Society

Postby Uccisore » Thu Dec 26, 2013 10:32 pm

Fixed Cross wrote:I am glad you feel that way but - that is not implicit in the text. I do agree with it though. So maybe it's in there. Do you disagree?


Oh, I dunno. My point right now isn't to say whether the precepts are correct or not, it's to say "This is how ideologies spring up from anti-ideological movements". Off the top of my head, MAYBE real men don't let other people dictate their values to them, but neither to rebellious children or crazy people, so I'd need some definition between the manly way to be independent vs. the immature way or the insane way.

It is meant to encourage scrutinizing all organizations that dictate values, certainly. I think that is called for right now, very much. So... do you disagree? If so, why?


Ha, no. There's lots of things that need to be pointed out- equal and opposite things. Questioning authority needs to be pointed out, submitting to right authority also needs to be pointed out. It's more about which important messages a group chooses to point out and which they don't than whether or not the words are wise.
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Re: Open World Society

Postby Fixed Cross » Thu Dec 26, 2013 11:36 pm

Authority in general, the concept of it.
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Re: Open World Society

Postby Fixed Cross » Thu Dec 26, 2013 11:42 pm

Man easily unlearns to think in terms of institutions, but the institutions still think man in their terms.
Last edited by Fixed Cross on Fri Dec 27, 2013 12:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Open World Society

Postby Fixed Cross » Thu Dec 26, 2013 11:49 pm

The capitals are extremely amusing and interesting, but I'd like to bring this thread back to the original spirit of the Humanarchy site. I think this post by the sites founder is a bit more up your (Uccisocre, Von Rivers) Alley.

On human rights

Humanarchy wrote:This is a thread asking for help in developing some ideas that I want to put into an article for the frontpage. I wholly welcome feedback and disagreement, clarification, interrogation and postulation.

I have become somewhat tired and uninspired by the way in which the concept of human rights is employed - politically, legally and culturally. It appears these days that one can make a claim to one's rights being violated for the most trivial of things, which in turns trivialises the very real violations of human rights against individuals by the security state, and the uniform violations of all individuals rights by the central banking/mandatory taxation and inflation system.

Certain groups on 'the Right' are encouraged to turn this phenomenon into a mainstay of their political rhetoric, accusing 'the Left' and 'Liberals' of 'bleating about human rights'. Because the 'far Left' will in fact leap on anything as a violation of rights, except for the stuff that truly matters, this characterisation is often accurate, and so the political rhetoric finds a home in the hearts and minds of otherwise decent people. The fact that the 'far Right' are themselves bleating about the bleating of the 'far Left' seems to escape the discussion. Thus, it makes it hard to have a serious conversation about human rights without being drawn into this polarising, tabloid, moronic discussion and so, on the whole, I have avoided talking in those terms when asked about politics.

Likewise, the basis for claims to human rights also bother me. Typically, they take one of three forms:
1) The 'rights' are enshrined on a piece of paper with some writing on (the US constitution, the European Declaration on Human Rights, etc.)
2) The 'rights' are granted and divined by God.
3) The 'rights' are inherent in humans/all living things.

My major problem with the first argument is that pieces of paper with writing on can be burned, torn up, rewritten, superceded by other bits of paper with writing on. That is not to say I disagree with the principles on such pieces of paper, just to say that they are an incredibly fragile means on which to base a society that respects human rights.

My major problem with the second argument is that I don't believe in God, nor do I see how claiming that we all have the status previously reserved for monarchs (divine right) is realistic or remotely true.

My major problem with the third is that in the real world living things kill other living things, and to a certain extent this is necessary for life to continue. Killing something is a violation of its rights, but is unavoidable in practice.

To my mind, 'rights' are both philosophically and in reality a claim backed up by force and/or ability. I can defend my person, my loved ones, my property. North Americans could do this and did do this long before anyone wrote a constitution, and they'll continue doing it as their constitution is being torn up and rewritten and superceded. That is what gives them the right to do so.

That is not to say that anything that someone can do they necessarily have a right to do, but more to say that if you don't have the ability to do something then saying it is your right to do it is somewhat meaningless. That may appear somewhat cynical, and self-defeating in the face of the violations of rights I mentioned above, but I see it in the opposite way. I think that respect for human rights is absolutely vital to a society wherein human life can thrive, but that the citizens of such a society have to self-consciously affirm their rights in a realistic way, based on their own ability to actually life a live according to those rights.

I really do want feedback on this line of thinking, so please do fire away.
Last edited by Fixed Cross on Fri Dec 27, 2013 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Open World Society

Postby gib » Fri Dec 27, 2013 3:34 am

FC,

What do you do in the case of conflicting values? If we are to create our own values from within ourselves and to go forth and strive to satisfy them in the world, how are we, in your society, to handle situations where we meet up with someone whose values and objectives are at odds with our own?

Also, with respect to this:

Fixed Cross wrote:That is not to say that anything that someone can do they necessarily have a right to do...


if these rights are based on the values we create for ourselves (or am I wrong in assuming this?), then how are we to distinguish between what we actually have a right to and what we merely want but don't have a right to?
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Re: Open World Society

Postby Ben JS » Fri Dec 27, 2013 11:05 am

I have a general rule of thumb where I don't respect anyone who talks about being a 'real man'.
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Re: Pull up you pants, soldier!

Postby Fixed Cross » Fri Dec 27, 2013 12:55 pm

Gib, we need laws, but less of them.
The laws that are in effect need to be traceable to the idea from which they sprung, and the idea needs to be verifiable.

That piece you quoted wasn't written by me, I edited the original quotation so as to appear as a quotation.

Joe Schmoe wrote:I have a general rule of thumb where I don't respect anyone who talks about being a 'real man'.

Yes, Uccisore... go stand in the corner!
Last edited by Fixed Cross on Fri Dec 27, 2013 12:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pull up you pants, soldier!

Postby Fixed Cross » Fri Dec 27, 2013 12:56 pm

---
Last edited by Fixed Cross on Fri Dec 27, 2013 1:45 pm, edited 12 times in total.
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Re: Pull up you pants, soldier!

Postby Ben JS » Fri Dec 27, 2013 1:00 pm

I actually only read until Uccisore's post about his worries regarding the precepts.

I actually associated the 'real men' talk to you, and my interpretation regarding your will to power and such.

Somewhere along the line you must have said something that hit that nerve, or stepped on that trap.

I remember..kind of...
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Re: Pull up you pants, soldier!

Postby Fixed Cross » Fri Dec 27, 2013 1:03 pm

The fact is we have a bunch of moderators on there who really aren't agreeing with each other on a lot of things. They have conflicting values and conflicting approaches. I had NEVER met anyone who could see eye to eye with another one philosophical issues entirely. But VO is changing that.

- Joe, I suspected as much. That's just bad bad reading man. There's nothing I could begin to do about people putting words in my mouth.
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Re: Pull up you pants, soldier!

Postby Ben JS » Fri Dec 27, 2013 1:05 pm

I am glad you feel that way but - that is not implicit in the text. I do agree with it though. So maybe it's in there. Do you disagree?

^^^

Is that not basically agreeing to Uccisore's representation?

Not putting words in your mouth.
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Re: Pull up you pants, soldier!

Postby Fixed Cross » Fri Dec 27, 2013 1:12 pm

Okay, yes that's fucked up. Suffice it to say that I was very far from sober yesterday, and made a really dumb decision to make this thread. Joke's on me, everyone. Forget about it, go back to your tents and dreams.
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