men and women

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men and women

Postby turtle » Mon Apr 08, 2013 2:43 pm

women and men need to find common ground and move forward solving problems....women must be recognized around the world
as having all the same rights and opportunities to participate in everything......otherwise we will go down the tube...we may anyways....
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Re: men and women

Postby Flannel Jesus » Mon Apr 08, 2013 4:15 pm

Anything to back that up?

Not that I disagree, I just don't see the point of the post as it is:
(a) either it's an uncontentious point that doesn't need backing up, but by the same token doesn't need saying at all, or
(b) it is a contentious point, and it does need backing up.
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Re: men and women

Postby felix dakat » Mon Apr 08, 2013 4:22 pm

FJ is right. What are you basing your opinions on, turtle?

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Re: men and women

Postby Maia » Mon Apr 08, 2013 4:28 pm

The question is, what can we do to effect change? How can we influence those parts of the world where women are treated as second class citizens?
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Re: men and women

Postby felix dakat » Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:37 pm

Not yet is isn't. First, we need explanations. Why do women and men need common ground? Why must women be recognized as having the same rights and opportunities? What does turtle mean by "going down the tube"? What are rights? There seem to be hidden assumptions behind the post thesis. What makes you think your ethical values justify influence other parts of the world where they have different values?

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Re: men and women

Postby Maia » Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:40 pm

felix dakat wrote:Not yet is isn't. First, we need explanations. Why do women and men need common ground? Why must women be recognized as having the same rights and opportunities? What does turtle mean by "going down the tube"? What are rights? There seem to be hidden assumptions behind the post thesis. What makes you think your ethical values justify influence other parts of the world where they have different values?


If our values mean anything at all, they apply to everyone.
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Re: men and women

Postby felix dakat » Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:48 pm

Maia wrote:
felix dakat wrote:Not yet is isn't. First, we need explanations. Why do women and men need common ground? Why must women be recognized as having the same rights and opportunities? What does turtle mean by "going down the tube"? What are rights? There seem to be hidden assumptions behind the post thesis. What makes you think your ethical values justify influence other parts of the world where they have different values?


If our values mean anything at all, they apply to everyone.


How do you overcome nihilism? Who says your values mean anything? Or relativism? How do you know your values apply to everyone? People's values vary according to their culture. How do you determine yours are right and their's wrong?

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Re: men and women

Postby Maia » Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:02 pm

felix dakat wrote:
Maia wrote:
felix dakat wrote:Not yet is isn't. First, we need explanations. Why do women and men need common ground? Why must women be recognized as having the same rights and opportunities? What does turtle mean by "going down the tube"? What are rights? There seem to be hidden assumptions behind the post thesis. What makes you think your ethical values justify influence other parts of the world where they have different values?


If our values mean anything at all, they apply to everyone.


How do you overcome nihilism? Who says your values mean anything? Or relativism? How do you know your values apply to everyone? People's values vary according to their culture. How do you determine yours are right and their's wrong?


If one culture thinks its ok to stone women to death for the crime of getting raped, forces them to marry their middle aged uncles and cousins at the age of 9, and allows men to have 4 wives but not the reverse, then either this is wrong, or nothing is wrong. Moral relativism can only go so far.
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Re: men and women

Postby turtle » Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:45 pm

felix dakat wrote:FJ is right. What are you basing your opinions on, turtle?


yes i need to be more specific ......some of the churches(you know them) do not allow women in the very top positions...
the men will not allow it...i think this is causing problems....my opinions are just opinions based on my experience in churches, teaching in libraries, teaching in schools, volunteering in court, and running discussion groups on womens rights....

one discussion group explores the advantages of having women as equal partners with men especially in religious and spiritual matters...it is important to have good leaders....i have not been impressed with the guys....maybe we should give the girls a chance....how about a woman pope...

now maybe someone can give opinions that would help out with this proposal beside maia...she is doing good..
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Re: men and women

Postby Stuart » Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:49 pm

Women do need to be in power more and certainly they shouldn't have equal rights. The first thing that I believe must be openly adknowledged though is that when women have been in power they often haven't been startlingly better than men and secondly it needs to be openly adknowledged especially in the context of this type of discussion (where it is usually ignored) that while women are as a whole still being more oppressed by men than the reverse, women do oppress men. And I don't mean to get into a discussion on how women as a whole may oppress men as a whole, but simply that millions of individuals who identify themselves as women oppress millions of individuals who identify themselves as men. Where is such oppresssion going on? Where ever there is oppression in general that is non gender related, such as racial discrimination etc. etc. Afterall, take any given race of people known for oppressing any other given race of people; does the oppressing race not have women, does the oppressed race not have men?

Someone may ask, 'Yes, so what, all that you're saying is obvious, do you have anything relevant to say?' Yes, it is obvious, but in these discussions it is so often unadknowledged, it only needs to be adknowledged so that the discussion on relevant progression of women can begin on lucid grounds, beyond that, personally I don't have any suggestions.
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Re: men and women

Postby V-OutOfTheWilderness » Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:14 pm

People can argue the point all they want, and skirt the issue by asking for definitions for everything turtle stated in the OP, but :

Women are people and should have equal rights as human beings. Plain and simple ... and wherever that doesn't exist, it's wrong. Hang cultural differences ... what a lame excuse ... that is nothing but an enabler of wrongs to women.
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Re: men and women

Postby felix dakat » Tue Apr 09, 2013 12:55 am

People can argue the point all they want, and skirt the issue by asking for definitions for everything turtle stated in the OP,


What is wanted is to unskirt the issue actually.



Women are people and should have equal rights as human beings.



Men are on average stronger and better at math and science than women. Why should women have equal rights?



Plain and simple ... and wherever that doesn't exist, it's wrong.


Assuming that is the case, why is it so?


Hang cultural differences ... what a lame excuse ... that is nothing but an enabler of wrongs to women.


What makes your cultural perspective superior to that of others? Patriarchal societies were the norm throughout most of human history. Those societies assured human survival. What makes you think equal rights for women is better?

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Re: men and women

Postby V-OutOfTheWilderness » Tue Apr 09, 2013 2:56 am

felix dakat wrote:
People can argue the point all they want, and skirt the issue by asking for definitions for everything turtle stated in the OP,


What is wanted is to unskirt the issue actually.



Women are people and should have equal rights as human beings.



Men are on average stronger and better at math and science than women. Why should women have equal rights?



Plain and simple ... and wherever that doesn't exist, it's wrong.


Assuming that is the case, why is it so?


Hang cultural differences ... what a lame excuse ... that is nothing but an enabler of wrongs to women.


What makes your cultural perspective superior to that of others? Patriarchal societies were the norm throughout most of human history. Those societies assured human survival. What makes you think equal rights for women is better?

Oh Felix, get off yer high horse. What makes us think that equal rights for blacks is better?
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Re: men and women

Postby gib » Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:01 am

This should be in Society, Government, and Economics.
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It is impossible for a human being to go through life not thinking irrationally even if they think of themselves as rational
Also just as irrational decisions are not always bad then rational ones are not always good no matter what the intention
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Re: men and women

Postby Helandhighwater » Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:44 am

I think first and foremost we should recognise after 200000 years of evolution men and women are different, and stop making apologetics for those differences. But that said it's not a matter of saying all are equal clearly some are not, male of female, all we should say is those male or female with the ability to do so should shine without fear of contradiction. The day that is realised I will eat my hat in shock. Suffice to say the best compliment of minds in my experience whether what those minds have is genetic or socially learned contrivances, is having women amongst men. All male orientated groups are for shit as are all women, there is strength in complementation.


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Re: men and women

Postby gib » Tue Apr 09, 2013 4:28 am

While I agree that one should consider the physical/innate differences between two groups of people before bantering around the flag of "equal rights," I can't for the life of me think of where these differences may lie when it comes to men and women. I almost posted about the right to maternity leave, but then I thought "well, no, in this day and age of gender roll dissolution, there is talk of men taking paternal leave." That made me warry of basing rights on actual physical/mental differences versus traditional roll differences.

Nevertheless, if it turns out that some rights are more crucial to women while other rights more crucial to men, I think the biggest mistake we could make is to appoint only one group as the one who decides where those rights go. This is why it is indeed important to give both sexes equal opportunity for power and occupation. That way, you don't have a dispraportionate sample of one sex making decisions for and determining the lives of the other (as if they knew what's good for them better than a member of their own sex).
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Re: men and women

Postby turtle » Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:43 am

turtle wrote:women and men need to find common ground and move forward solving problems....women must be recognized around the world
as having all the same rights and opportunities to participate in everything......otherwise we will go down the tube...we may anyways....


what is so hard to understand about this post...why are we having so much trouble....i am just giving my opinions from my experience....lets focus on all of the major religions .....men are in charge generally speaking....why is that....is that a good thing...could there be improvements by having male and female together working out problems....

i was hoping that the religion and spirituality forum would be able to discuss ideas without having to prove everything...
i think this post is very important for this forum because we are talking about beliefs and behavior having to do with our survival..
thank you...
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Re: men and women

Postby Hobbes Choice » Tue Apr 09, 2013 12:37 pm

felix dakat wrote:
Maia wrote:
felix dakat wrote:Not yet is isn't. First, we need explanations. Why do women and men need common ground? Why must women be recognized as having the same rights and opportunities? What does turtle mean by "going down the tube"? What are rights? There seem to be hidden assumptions behind the post thesis. What makes you think your ethical values justify influence other parts of the world where they have different values?


If our values mean anything at all, they apply to everyone.


How do you overcome nihilism? ?


`Opinion.
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Re: men and women

Postby turtle » Tue Apr 09, 2013 1:14 pm

felix dakat wrote:
Maia wrote:
felix dakat wrote:Not yet is isn't. First, we need explanations. Why do women and men need common ground? Why must women be recognized as having the same rights and opportunities? What does turtle mean by "going down the tube"? What are rights? There seem to be hidden assumptions behind the post thesis. What makes you think your ethical values justify influence other parts of the world where they have different values?


If our values mean anything at all, they apply to everyone.


How do you overcome nihilism? ?


hc you replied opinion----------
can you say more hc
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Re: men and women

Postby felix dakat » Tue Apr 09, 2013 4:32 pm

Oh Felix, get off yer high horse. What makes us think that equal rights for blacks is better?


Right. What does?

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Re: men and women

Postby turtle » Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:31 pm

turtle wrote:women and men need to find common ground and move forward solving problems....women must be recognized around the world
as having all the same rights and opportunities to participate in everything......otherwise we will go down the tube...we may anyways....


i think some people here did not read my very short post....now that we are in this sub-forum i will not talk about my churches..
i will talk about the united states...why is it that we have never had a woman president....is this a problem for anyone here....
why are there more men in the senate and supreme court than women...i have a problem with this and i will tell you why....guys tend to be the ones that fight wars...women tend to fight by talking...isnt it time for men and women to cooperate...you cant do that with the one group trying to dominate, whether it is men or women....what happened to cooperate...
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Re: men and women

Postby Pandora » Thu Apr 11, 2013 5:32 am

I never quite underatood the idea that men and women are supposed to be equal and the same in all areas. Men want to be men and women (most) want to ne women. When a woman wants to be like a man it undermines a man's identity, and when a man is overly feminine (metrosexual), it undermines a woman's identity (this is considering that men want to be men in relation to women and vice-versa, which I think still holds true for the majority of population). The hype with gender reversal I think is overblown a bit. These a basic/natural psychological attributes of men and women, and without constant and continuous societal pressure for gender equalization/homogenization, the roles would simply revert back to their natual, balanced state. I also don't believe the idea that to have men in power would automatically lead to subjugation of women, as if men and women are some kind of enemies. Women take care of men, and men take care of women.
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Re: men and women

Postby Moreno » Thu Apr 11, 2013 5:40 am

Pandora wrote:I never quite underatood the idea that men and women are supposed to be equal and the same in all areas. Men want to be men and women (most) want to ne women. When a woman wants to be like a man it undermines a man's identity, and when a man is overly feminine (metrosexual), it undermines a woman's identity (this is considering that men want to be men in relation to women and vice-versa, which I think still holds true for the majority of population).

It seems like when a man is overly feminine, by some people's standards some it is primarily men, not women, who feel like it undermine's their identity. At least, they seem to take it very personally, like it is a threat that needs to be erased. Women seem more relaxed around this, though, of course, it bothers many of them also.
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Re: men and women

Postby lizbethrose » Thu Apr 11, 2013 6:14 am

Why is it that every time the subject comes up, men have to, seemingly, emphasize their superiority by pointing out the physical differences between the genders? Why can't the differences be seen as complimentary and celebrated as such? I tend to celebrate the physical differences between men and women. If it weren't for those differences, how could we have survived as a species? Hmmm?
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Re: men and women

Postby Flannel Jesus » Thu Apr 11, 2013 6:25 am

lizbethrose wrote:Why is it that every time the subject comes up, men have to, seemingly, emphasize their superiority by pointing out the physical differences between the genders? Why can't the differences be seen as complimentary and celebrated as such? I tend to celebrate the physical differences between men and women. If it weren't for those differences, how could we have survived as a species? Hmmm?

When the subject comes up, men point out the physical differences.
You say you celebrate those physical differences, and yet you're apparently offended or off-put in some way by the fact that men point out the physical differences.

You're celebrating it and being offended by it at the same time? I don't understand what's going on here.
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