SCOTUS Decision on Health Care

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Re: SCOTUS Decision on Health Care

Postby SIATD v2 » Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:26 am

lizbethrose wrote:
Helandhighwater wrote:It's called moving the goal posts, in which one attempts to change the criteria or what they believe in order to render their or more commonly someone else's argument correct or false respectively. It is a well known logical fallacy. If you were being serious.


Yep, it's moving the goal posts, which I did because writing is a process for me and because I realized FJ was focusing on my word choices rather than on the point I was trying to make. And I admit I threw the topic out to see if anyone wanted to respond to the OP and in which direction the responders wanted to take the topic. FJ took it the way he usually takes my thoughts--with misunderstanding and derision. He then leaves the discussion, blaming me and my muddled thinking for having done so. His ego is such that he must leave.

I really don't mind.



If ever there was a reason for the mods to warn someone, it was this - being categorically wrong, insisting you're right, and then when the other person gives up trying to explain simple things to you, accusing them of being egotistical. This is precisely the sort of thing that is not only against the rules, it also degrades the quality of discussion in a massive way.

I wonder, though, whether any such warning will be forthcoming...
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Re: SCOTUS Decision on Health Care

Postby lizbethrose » Tue Jun 19, 2012 9:05 am

I'll try one last time. There is no such thing as a free market economy. What's practiced in the US is a quasi-regulated economy--with a lot of Adam Smith's ideas thrown in--and some societal responsibilities--all of which make it a mixed economy. The HCRA is an attempt to bring these theories together into a package that appeals to followers of the economic theories agreeable to the majority of people, rather than corporations.

Keynesian economic theory, as I understand it, allows the Federal Government a certain amount of control in price setting through the Federal Reserve banking system--which many people feel is unconstitutional, since the Federal Reserve isn't a part of the government. It also allows the Federal Government to step in and use Federal monies to 'rescue' failing corps deemed necessary for the continuance of the well-being of the majority of the population.

Adam Smith didn't really develop anything new, but he put together the ideas of the existing 18th century economies, based on the rule of supply and demand, and came up with the idea of the 'invisible hand' that would ultimately equalize production and consumption, based on satisfaction realized by both producers and consumers.

Societal responsibilities involve a lot of things. In order to maintain a viable work force--whether or not that work produces goods or services--there's a pressing need for health, education, and general welfare--welfare meaning welfare capitalism, the incentives used by corps to keep the work force 'happy.' That became a driving power with unions--especially coal miners.

My OP, however, wasn't about which economic theory, or system, was the 'better' system. The OP was about the SCOTUS decision on the HCRA. FJ took that into a discussion of my word choices without really contributing to any discussion of the OP. His ego, his persona, led him to that because that's part of our relationship, imm. Meh.

The OP was meant to be just what the title said it is--in general. What are the ramifications of the SCOTUS decision concerning the constitutionality of the HCRA?
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Re: SCOTUS Decision on Health Care

Postby SIATD v2 » Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:04 pm

lizbethrose wrote:There is no such thing as a free market economy.


Ironically, I actually agree with you on this.

I will add that I've never actually heard someone make an argument for a pure free market (a free market taken literally, as the absolutist term 'free' implies we should). In a truly free market you could sell your children and your grandmother into sex slavery and no one would be able to do a damn thing about it. I don't think anyone actually wants to live in a world like that.
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Re: SCOTUS Decision on Health Care

Postby Jamazing » Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:24 am

lizbethrose wrote:The SCOTUS will make its decision on the constitutionality of President Obama's Health Care Reform Act. As I see it, the question is whether or not the Federal Government can force everyone to buy health insurance by making it a mandate. As near as I can see, there's nothing in the Constitution that addresses health insurance--or any other kind of insurance, for that matter. States were given a mandate about auto insurance--so we all buy car insurance.


The mandate is if you choose to be in the market. If I choose to be in the ownership of a vehicle market; I must buy insurance. I have the choice to not be in that market (not own a vehicle), therefore I am not mandated to have auto insurance. I personally have not had a driver's license in over ten years, I have not owned a vehicle in that time period either. I am not in that market, thus I am not mandated by the state to have auto insurance.

There is no precedent for this case. This is why it is actually very serious about how the SCOTUS rules on this case. Healthcare is a very unique market. Unlike the auto market, a person does not choose to be in it. I am not in the market right now, but it would be my choice to enter it. If I decide to enter the market, I am doing so on my free will and agree to abide to the mandates that come with entering the market.

I am not in the healthcare market right now. I have no problems and haven't had any in about 20 years. 1993 was the last time I have seen a doctor and that was my discharge physical from the Navy. I may or may not enter the market in the next 5 years, maybe 10, or never I may die by an accident tomorrow and never need healthcare.

This mandate forces me into a market, not by choice but by force. This is very dangerous territory for the SCOTUS, not just because of the implication of future use but because of the removal of freedom of choice in a free market. It forces people into a market that they are not currently choosing to be in at their current state.

I am well aware of the alternative. People would not get insurance until they get sick and the ramifications of that would be detrimental the the healthcare market. It is completely different than the auto insurance market on those merits also. That is because most other markets people want to enter. Healthcare is a market no one wants to enter besides the hypochondriac.

Therefore do you force people into a market against their will, stripping them of their rights of freedom? Or do you let a market cripple, gasp and suck the life force out of an economy? I would not want to be sitting on that judicial bench right now!!!
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Re: SCOTUS Decision on Health Care

Postby lizbethrose » Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:28 am

Jamazing wrote:
lizbethrose wrote:The SCOTUS will make its decision on the constitutionality of President Obama's Health Care Reform Act. As I see it, the question is whether or not the Federal Government can force everyone to buy health insurance by making it a mandate. As near as I can see, there's nothing in the Constitution that addresses health insurance--or any other kind of insurance, for that matter. States were given a mandate about auto insurance--so we all buy car insurance.


The mandate is if you choose to be in the market. If I choose to be in the ownership of a vehicle market; I must buy insurance. I have the choice to not be in that market (not own a vehicle), therefore I am not mandated to have auto insurance. I personally have not had a driver's license in over ten years, I have not owned a vehicle in that time period either. I am not in that market, thus I am not mandated by the state to have auto insurance.

There is no precedent for this case. This is why it is actually very serious about how the SCOTUS rules on this case. Healthcare is a very unique market. Unlike the auto market, a person does not choose to be in it. I am not in the market right now, but it would be my choice to enter it. If I decide to enter the market, I am doing so on my free will and agree to abide to the mandates that come with entering the market.

I am not in the healthcare market right now. I have no problems and haven't had any in about 20 years. 1993 was the last time I have seen a doctor and that was my discharge physical from the Navy. I may or may not enter the market in the next 5 years, maybe 10, or never I may die by an accident tomorrow and never need healthcare.

This mandate forces me into a market, not by choice but by force. This is very dangerous territory for the SCOTUS, not just because of the implication of future use but because of the removal of freedom of choice in a free market. It forces people into a market that they are not currently choosing to be in at their current state.

I am well aware of the alternative. People would not get insurance until they get sick and the ramifications of that would be detrimental the the healthcare market. It is completely different than the auto insurance market on those merits also. That is because most other markets people want to enter. Healthcare is a market no one wants to enter besides the hypochondriac.

Therefore do you force people into a market against their will, stripping them of their rights of freedom? Or do you let a market cripple, gasp and suck the life force out of an economy? I would not want to be sitting on that judicial bench right now!!!


Thank you, Jamazing, and welcome to ILP, Thank you for recognizing, in part, what the SCOTUS decision means. Your post goes to the heart of the anti-HCRA argument, which is government control over our lives.

That said, the HCRA really doesn't demand that you go out and buy health insurance. If you choose not to and are then in need of medical treatment, you'll get that care. Then you'll need to join an insurance group. One such group is the Federal government's group. But it's one group out of the many, which are normally offered by employers. If you're not employed, or if your employer doesn't offer health insurance at a reduced rate, you can join a group of other uninsured potential benefactors. And if you still don't join an insurance group and, after using socialized medicine, you'll have a fine taken against your income tax return in order to help pay for the care you've received.

You don't have to buy into any insurance group. What you're doing is betting your health against the odds that you'll never need it. That's your choice.

Your spouse may decide to have basic health care coverage for herself and your children. She may only qualify for government insurance which is different from Medicare or Medicaid, in that it takes group monies to fund group need, rather than tax monies from people who don't want their money to go into social welfare programs.

Insurance of any kind relies on group participation. If there's a group of uninsured or under insured people who want basic insurance, but who can't afford it given what the insurance corps offer, why not let them band together to form their own insurance group? Isn't this why big insurance continues to lobby against the HCRA?
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Re: SCOTUS Decision on Health Care

Postby uglypeoplefucking » Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:01 pm

most people (who are alive) will need healthcare at some point, and that healthcare will need to be paid for. it has little or nothing to do with "choice". sure you may get insurance and never use it, but that's the nature of insurance. if we have a system where insurance is required in order to obtain medical treatment then we require a system where everyone is insured. this crap about govt control is, well . . . crap.
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Re: SCOTUS Decision on Health Care

Postby Jamazing » Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:22 pm

uglypeoplefucking wrote:most people (who are alive) will need healthcare at some point, and that healthcare will need to be paid for. it has little or nothing to do with "choice". sure you may get insurance and never use it, but that's the nature of insurance. if we have a system where insurance is required in order to obtain medical treatment then we require a system where everyone is insured. this crap about govt control is, well . . . crap.


"Most" people is not "all" people, there is the fundamental difference in those words. You state that "most" will but the mandate address that "all" people will be in the market.

You state that "If we have a system where insurance is required in order to obtain medical treatment" is fundamentally changing the market we now have in place. We have a market that a person such as myself could pay out-of-pocket for my own healthcare, you are now asking the SCOTUS to redefine a market.

That is part of the Constitutionality question of the healthcare law that the SCOTUS is having to address. Is the legislative branch suppose to regulate and monitor the markets for fairness and equality or do they have the right to redefine and change a market in a Capitalistic society?
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Re: SCOTUS Decision on Health Care

Postby Jamazing » Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:37 pm

lizbethrose wrote:If you choose not to and are then in need of medical treatment, you'll get that care. Then you'll need to join an insurance group. One such group is the Federal government's group. But it's one group out of the many, which are normally offered by employers. If you're not employed, or if your employer doesn't offer health insurance at a reduced rate, you can join a group of other uninsured potential benefactors. And if you still don't join an insurance group and, after using socialized medicine, you'll have a fine taken against your income tax return in order to help pay for the care you've received.


Why should I "have to join an insurance group" if I can afford to pay my own bills? Why should I have a fine? I don't get an income (payroll) tax return, so will this be a fee added to what I already pay in taxes? I don't see how this is not removing choice from me? And I am not "betting your health against the odds that you'll never need it", I am saying I don't need that protection if I need to enter the healthcare market. The government is saying that I do not have that choice, they want me to buy into something I do not deem required, that can only be done by force, in my humble opinion.
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Re: SCOTUS Decision on Health Care

Postby uglypeoplefucking » Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:23 pm

Jamazing wrote:Why should I "have to join an insurance group" if I can afford to pay my own bills? Why should I have a fine? I don't get an income (payroll) tax return, so will this be a fee added to what I already pay in taxes?


Yeah, something to that effect. But hey if you can afford to pay your own medical bills then you can afford a tax penalty for not having insurance. i don't feel sorry for you.

I don't see how this is not removing choice from me? And I am not "betting your health against the odds that you'll never need it", I am saying I don't need that protection if I need to enter the healthcare market. The government is saying that I do not have that choice, they want me to buy into something I do not deem required, that can only be done by force, in my humble opinion.


All youre doing is describing what happens anytime a law is imposed. Your choices become limited to wether or not to comply. The govt can and often does use force or the threat thereof to get you to comply - that is the nature of governments, and that is the nature of laws. You may think any number of laws are not required for you, that doesn't mean they aren't necessarry in general. i don't require a law prohibiting me from punching random strangers in the face, but i don't complain about my choices being taken away from me when such laws are imposed.
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Re: SCOTUS Decision on Health Care

Postby Jamazing » Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:56 pm

uglypeoplefucking wrote:
Jamazing wrote:Why should I "have to join an insurance group" if I can afford to pay my own bills? Why should I have a fine? I don't get an income (payroll) tax return, so will this be a fee added to what I already pay in taxes?


Yeah, something to that effect. But hey if you can afford to pay your own medical bills then you can afford a tax penalty for not having insurance. i don't feel sorry for you.

I don't see how this is not removing choice from me? And I am not "betting your health against the odds that you'll never need it", I am saying I don't need that protection if I need to enter the healthcare market. The government is saying that I do not have that choice, they want me to buy into something I do not deem required, that can only be done by force, in my humble opinion.


All youre doing is describing what happens anytime a law is imposed. Your choices become limited to wether or not to comply. The govt can and often does use force or the threat thereof to get you to comply - that is the nature of governments, and that is the nature of laws. You may think any number of laws are not required for you, that doesn't mean they aren't necessarry in general. i don't require a law prohibiting me from punching random strangers in the face, but i don't complain about my choices being taken away from me when such laws are imposed.


I never asked you to feel sorry for me, this is not an emotional discussion, this is a rational discussion. The question was not about being able to afford it, or that I should pay more because I can. The question is why should I be forced into a market that is not required for me to enter? As I said in my first post, I understand the economical impact it is having on our economy, that is why I stated "I would not want to be sitting on that judicial bench right now!!!"

This is not like any other laws, the fundamentals are very different. This is is not forcing me to comply with inherited rights of protection we assume as a community, such as physical violence against another human being. My choice to remain out of the market does not inherently effect another human being negatively. You can make the case if I am unable to protect myself if I do enter the market, thus on that point I agree with the fines, but this law does not address that issue. It forceable inserts me into the market with no exceptions. Something no other law has ever done in our country: except for the mandatory payment of social security, which I will save for another day.

I do supply my employees with affordable healthcare, because economically I believe that those that can't protect themselves from the adverse effects upon enter the market "should" have prior coverage. It just does not make economical sense for me. I have the safety-net of finance and because of my lack of need of the market it has saved me tens of thousands of dollars over the years. Money best spent in other markets. This law removes that option for me to spend that money in other markets, which or more profitable, and put it in a market that only wastes money.
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Re: SCOTUS Decision on Health Care

Postby uglypeoplefucking » Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:05 pm

Jamazing wrote:"Most" people is not "all" people, there is the fundamental difference in those words. You state that "most" will but the mandate address that "all" people will be in the market.


So how do we determine those few special individuals that will NEVER need care? Predict the future? Hey if you're lucky enough to never require medical treatment, then yeah, your insurance payments would be lost money, insurance is always a gamble that way.

You state that "If we have a system where insurance is required in order to obtain medical treatment" is fundamentally changing the market we now have in place. We have a market that a person such as myself could pay out-of-pocket for my own healthcare, you are now asking the SCOTUS to redefine a market.


I'm not asking anyone to redefine anything, i'm not among those who think that there even should be a market for healthcare in the first place. But i would ask you to better explain in what way this fundamentally changes the market now in place, and why that should be any concern of SCOTUS. Markets are altered due to govt interventions all the time.

That is part of the Constitutionality question of the healthcare law that the SCOTUS is having to address. Is the legislative branch suppose to regulate and monitor the markets for fairness and equality or do they have the right to redefine and change a market in a Capitalistic society?


It's a bogus question - markets change all the time, both with govt intervention and without - who determines how they were defined to begin with? The Constitution doesn't strictly define what is and isn't a market as far as i know.
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Re: SCOTUS Decision on Health Care

Postby Jamazing » Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:11 pm

uglypeoplefucking wrote:
Jamazing wrote:"Most" people is not "all" people, there is the fundamental difference in those words. You state that "most" will but the mandate address that "all" people will be in the market.


So how do we determine those few special individuals that will NEVER need care? Predict the future? Hey if you're lucky enough to never require medical treatment, then yeah, your insurance payments would be lost money, insurance is always a gamble that way.

You state that "If we have a system where insurance is required in order to obtain medical treatment" is fundamentally changing the market we now have in place. We have a market that a person such as myself could pay out-of-pocket for my own healthcare, you are now asking the SCOTUS to redefine a market.


I'm not asking anyone to redefine anything, i'm not among those who think that there even should be a market for healthcare in the first place. But i would ask you to better explain in what way this fundamentally changes the market now in place, and why that should be any concern of SCOTUS. Markets are altered due to govt interventions all the time.

That is part of the Constitutionality question of the healthcare law that the SCOTUS is having to address. Is the legislative branch suppose to regulate and monitor the markets for fairness and equality or do they have the right to redefine and change a market in a Capitalistic society?


It's a bogus question - markets change all the time, both with govt intervention and without - who determines how they were defined to begin with? The Constitution doesn't strictly define what is and isn't a market as far as i know.



We are crossing each other on the responses, I believe some of this was answered in a post I was making while you wrote this one. I am not ignoring you, but will wait on the other response and address both in one post. Just to avoid confusion and redundancy.

I will also clarify that the market of health insurance and the market of healthcare are two separate markets that are closely tied, but are in fact two different things. Most will enter the healthcare market but it doesn't make a person inheritely part of the other market. Simply because some or even most need to be in both markets to survive doesn't mean that it is absolute to all people, and making that conclusion that they are one is faulty logic. This is the precedent the SCOTUS is faced with by this law.
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Re: SCOTUS Decision on Health Care

Postby lizbethrose » Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:27 am

jamazing wrote:

I will also clarify that the market of health insurance and the market of healthcare are two separate markets that are closely tied, but are in fact two different things. Most will enter the healthcare market but it doesn't make a person inheritely part of the other market. Simply because some or even most need to be in both markets to survive doesn't mean that it is absolute to all people, and making that conclusion that they are one is faulty logic. This is the precedent the SCOTUS is faced with by this law.


I'll get to why I quoted this in a minute. If y'all can take yourselves back in time about 3 yrs. to when this first became a hot topic, much of what you've said, Jam, was part of the Republican response to the HCRA. You may also remember the statements of rebuttal. No one is being forced into carrying health insurance. Most of the people who chose not to do so are young. Now, they can be covered by their parents' insurance until they're 26yrs. old. This assumes that, by age 26, they will have gone to and graduated from college and are now employed. It also gets them past the age when young men, especially, are prone to injury from car accidents--but that's an aside.

If a person feels s/he doesn't need health insurance, that's fine. If s/he can pay for needed health care at the time, that's fine. It's when accident victims are transported to the ER or when otherwise healthy persons are diagnosed with whooping cough (get your vaccination!), cancer, tetanus, cat scratch fever--any number of little thought of diseases--and require extensive hospitalization, rehab, etc., for which most people cannot pay 'out of pocket,' that the fine kicks in.

This is what the SCOTUS will publish its decision about--is the individual mandate constitutional. At risk is the provision that pre-existing conditions may not be used by insurance corps to deny coverage, something they've fought against from the beginning because of the expense to them and their share holders. In doing so, however, the corps could open the way for the so-called 'public option'--a kind of Medicaid plan to which everyone would contribute based on their ability to pay. The insurance lobby shot that idea down early on because it was afraid it would lose too many customers. If the parents of an autistic child can get insurance coverage for that child under a kind of medicaid plan, but not get it through the plan offered by their employers, which plan will they likely chose? How about a child with MD or MS?

This is why i quoted the above. Jam, you say you don't need to be in either the health care market or the health insurance market. You're apparently older than 26 if you own your own business. You also offer your employees affordable insurance for health care. Did the government tell you you had to do this, or was it a part of your Welfare Capitalism that you did on your own in order to attract the labor (either physical or mental) you need to run your company?

No matter what, the decision--which may come next week--will change people's lives.
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Re: SCOTUS Decision on Health Care

Postby Jamazing » Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:10 am

lizbethrose wrote:
jamazing wrote:

I will also clarify that the market of health insurance and the market of healthcare are two separate markets that are closely tied, but are in fact two different things. Most will enter the healthcare market but it doesn't make a person inheritely part of the other market. Simply because some or even most need to be in both markets to survive doesn't mean that it is absolute to all people, and making that conclusion that they are one is faulty logic. This is the precedent the SCOTUS is faced with by this law.


I'll get to why I quoted this in a minute. If y'all can take yourselves back in time about 3 yrs. to when this first became a hot topic, much of what you've said, Jam, was part of the Republican response to the HCRA. You may also remember the statements of rebuttal. No one is being forced into carrying health insurance. Most of the people who chose not to do so are young. Now, they can be covered by their parents' insurance until they're 26yrs. old. This assumes that, by age 26, they will have gone to and graduated from college and are now employed. It also gets them past the age when young men, especially, are prone to injury from car accidents--but that's an aside.

If a person feels s/he doesn't need health insurance, that's fine. If s/he can pay for needed health care at the time, that's fine. It's when accident victims are transported to the ER or when otherwise healthy persons are diagnosed with whooping cough (get your vaccination!), cancer, tetanus, cat scratch fever--any number of little thought of diseases--and require extensive hospitalization, rehab, etc., for which most people cannot pay 'out of pocket,' that the fine kicks in.

This is what the SCOTUS will publish its decision about--is the individual mandate constitutional. At risk is the provision that pre-existing conditions may not be used by insurance corps to deny coverage, something they've fought against from the beginning because of the expense to them and their share holders. In doing so, however, the corps could open the way for the so-called 'public option'--a kind of Medicaid plan to which everyone would contribute based on their ability to pay. The insurance lobby shot that idea down early on because it was afraid it would lose too many customers. If the parents of an autistic child can get insurance coverage for that child under a kind of medicaid plan, but not get it through the plan offered by their employers, which plan will they likely chose? How about a child with MD or MS?

This is why i quoted the above. Jam, you say you don't need to be in either the health care market or the health insurance market. You're apparently older than 26 if you own your own business. You also offer your employees affordable insurance for health care. Did the government tell you you had to do this, or was it a part of your Welfare Capitalism that you did on your own in order to attract the labor (either physical or mental) you need to run your company?

No matter what, the decision--which may come next week--will change people's lives.



That may have been the rebuttal 3 years ago, but that wasn't what was in the law and what the SCOTUS is determining. This is the exact Section 1501 wording:

PART I—INDIVIDUAL RESPONSIBILITY
SEC. 1501. REQUIREMENT TO MAINTAIN MINIMUM ESSENTIAL COVERAGE.
(a) FINDINGS.—Congress makes the following findings:
(1) INGENERAL.—The individual responsibility requirement
provided for in this section (in this subsection referred to as
the ‘‘requirement’’) is commercial and economic in nature, and
substantially affects interstate commerce, as a result of the
effects described in paragraph (2).
(2) EFFECTS ON THE NATIONAL ECONOMY AND INTERSTATE
COMMERCE.—øReplaced by section 10106(a)¿ The effects
described in this paragraph are the following:
(A) The requirement regulates activity that is commer-
cial and economic in nature: economic and financial
decisions about how and when health care is paid for,
and when health insurance is purchased. In the absence
of the requirement, some individuals would make an eco-
nomic and financial decision to forego health insurance
coverage and attempt to self-insure, which increases finan-
cial risks to households and medical providers
.


They are essentially saying I am too much of a risk to myself and the healthcare profession to self-insure. That is a very large assumption, and one I do not think is logically correct. This is their basis for forcing me into the health insurance market. This is the sole reason they feel they can take that choice from me to self-insure. This is what is being Constitutional challenge.

It goes on how all health people are required to sustain the markets, that healthy people have to pay even though they don't need the services to cover the ones that do:

(I) Under sections 2704 and 2705 of the Public Health
Service Act (as added by section 1201 of this Act), if there
were no requirement, many individuals would wait to pur-
chase health insurance until they needed care. By signifi-
cantly increasing health insurance coverage, the require-
ment, together with the other provisions of this Act, will
minimize this adverse selection and broaden the health
insurance risk pool to include healthy individuals, which
will lower health insurance premiums. The requirement
is essential to creating effective health insurance markets
in which improved health insurance products that are
guaranteed issue and do not exclude coverage of pre-
existing conditions can be sold.


It also counters the myth that you can purchase health insurance when you go to the hospital and pay a fee. You pay a penalty for every month you don't have coverage:

‘‘SEC. 5000A. REQUIREMENT TO MAINTAIN MINIMUM ESSENTIAL COV-
ERAGE.
‘‘(a) REQUIREMENT TO MAINTAIN MINIMUMESSENTIAL COV-
ERAGE.—An applicable individual shall for each month beginning
after 2013 ensure that the individual, and any dependent of the
individual who is an applicable individual, is covered under min-
imum essential coverage for such month.
‘‘(b) SHARED RESPONSIBILITY PAYMENT.—
‘‘(1) INGENERAL.—øReplaced by section 10106(b)¿ If a tax-
payer who is an applicable individual, or an applicable indi-
vidual for whom the taxpayer is liable under paragraph (3),
fails to meet the requirement of subsection (a) for 1 or more
months, then, except as provided in subsection (e), there is
hereby imposed on the taxpayer a penalty with respect to
such failures in the amount determined under subsection (c).
‘‘(2) INCLUSIONWITHRETURN.—Any penalty imposed by
this section with respect to any month shall be included with
a taxpayer’s return under chapter 1 for the taxable year which
includes such month.


As for your last question: I provide healthcare to my employee's because I care about them. They are part of my extended family. Some take the option and some don't. I do the best I can to help them and their family, several have serious health issues in their immediate families. I personally made sure they had the no pre-existing or denial of coverage policy.

Maybe we should be looking into honorable and respectable employers that look after their employees, instead of how much money we make per hour, and shift own living standards to meet what they can offer as pay. I will refrain from going on that rant any further.
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Re: SCOTUS Decision on Health Care

Postby uglypeoplefucking » Fri Jun 22, 2012 11:50 am

Jamazing wrote:I never asked you to feel sorry for me, this is not an emotional discussion, this is a rational discussion. The question was not about being able to afford it, or that I should pay more because I can. The question is why should I be forced into a market that is not required for me to enter? As I said in my first post, I understand the economical impact it is having on our economy, that is why I stated "I would not want to be sitting on that judicial bench right now!!!"


My point in saying i don't feel sorry for you was simply to dismiss as not-terribly-important the fact that a few wealthy folks who don't need insurance will be made to pay a tax penalty. It hardly matters, and it should be of no concern to those deciding the fate of the healthcare law.

This is not like any other laws, the fundamentals are very different. This is is not forcing me to comply with inherited rights of protection we assume as a community, such as physical violence against another human being. My choice to remain out of the market does not inherently effect another human being negatively. You can make the case if I am unable to protect myself if I do enter the market, thus on that point I agree with the fines, but this law does not address that issue. It forceable inserts me into the market with no exceptions. Something no other law has ever done in our country: except for the mandatory payment of social security, which I will save for another day.


Your choice to remain out of the market raises healthcare prices for the rest of society.

You're right that it is much like social security in that everyone is forced into the system. So, i would ask, is social security unconstitutional?

I do supply my employees with affordable healthcare, because economically I believe that those that can't protect themselves from the adverse effects upon enter the market "should" have prior coverage. It just does not make economical sense for me. I have the safety-net of finance and because of my lack of need of the market it has saved me tens of thousands of dollars over the years. Money best spent in other markets. This law removes that option for me to spend that money in other markets, which or more profitable, and put it in a market that only wastes money.


Yes, this law would prevent you from spending a relatively small portion of your money in other ways which may have proven more personally profitable to you. i don't see why that matters or how that makes it unconstitutional. It's not the point of the constitution to maximize each individual's personal profitiblity. Nor do i see how it is fundamentally different from any other law that might force you into doing something you don't want to do, such as paying taxes . . .
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Re: SCOTUS Decision on Health Care

Postby uglypeoplefucking » Fri Jun 22, 2012 12:01 pm

Jamazing wrote:I will also clarify that the market of health insurance and the market of healthcare are two separate markets that are closely tied, but are in fact two different things. Most will enter the healthcare market but it doesn't make a person inheritely part of the other market. Simply because some or even most need to be in both markets to survive doesn't mean that it is absolute to all people, and making that conclusion that they are one is faulty logic. This is the precedent the SCOTUS is faced with by this law.


It's funny, because that is really a problem with the system of Capitalism that the US embraces, not a problem with the law. Yet the court's primary concern (if the questions asked by conservative judges during hearings on the law are any indiciation) seems to be with preserving the same system that caused the problem in the first place. My question is who cares if two nominally distinct markets are merged, if this leads to a better national healthcare system?
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Re: SCOTUS Decision on Health Care

Postby Jamazing » Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:17 pm

uglypeoplefucking wrote: My question is who cares if two nominally distinct markets are merged, if this leads to a better national healthcare system?


"Who cares if it leads to a better national healthcare system"? First, what guarantee do you have that it will be better, that is an assumption. Second, the people I have to lay-off will care. My cost is not a "relatively small portion" to my operating cost. I pay over $20,000/year for each and every policy for my employees. Not all of them are currently enrolled in an insurance program right now.

Every market I do not participate in causes the prices in that market to go up, that is common economics, unless demand surpasses supply. Why single out one market of healthcare insurance? For the betterment of that need of the market? Because you ideology says that we need to do that? The last time we had an ideology dictate a market through laws in the US we came up with Amendment 18, that worked out well.

As for, "Nor do i see how it is fundamentally different from any other law that might force you into doing something you don't want to do, such as paying taxes . . ." It is not forcing me to pay a tax, it is forcing me into a market. That is a fundamental difference you seem to not be able to recognize.

Healthcare insurance is a privately owned market, owned and operated by private citizens. Healthcare is a privately owned market and a state operated program. Forcing me into a privately owned market is not the same as paying taxes. Forcing me into a privately owned market to make another private market and a government program cheaper and more affordable is not the purpose of the federal government and it's laws, that is how it is unconstitutional. It is beyond their authority and powers of commerce.
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Re: SCOTUS Decision on Health Care

Postby Faust » Fri Jun 22, 2012 9:09 pm

In most, if not all states, we are forced, by law, to buy automobile insurance. We are often forced to use licensed electricians and plumbers, by law, rather than do the work ourselves. We are forced, by law, to enter the market for certain foods, as opposed to banned foods, to buy certain drugs and not to buy certain drugs because of laws. there are many markets we are excluded from and forced to enter by law.
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Re: SCOTUS Decision on Health Care

Postby Helandhighwater » Fri Jun 22, 2012 9:18 pm

Actually car insurance is a very good example there, we are forced by law to have car insurance because the alternative is unworkable and inefficient, and leads, or should I say has lead to all sorts of problems, hence the introduction of that law in pretty much all industrial first world nations. The question is, is what we are being forced to have generally for the common good, or utilitarian in the sense that it benefits people more than the alternative? As it pertains to peoples right to freely chose though it is an excellent example of state law and pragmatism generally. I think there is a time when we have to place the common good over the rights of the common man, but such decisions and laws are so grey as to be hard to argue in any absolute terms. I suppose ultimately we have to try systems of law, before we can really know if they are working, just as we once had to try trial by jury, just as Obama has or at least wants to try this partial health care system to see if it floats. Of course it is nothing like nationalised health or UHC but it is a first step. We do at least have the real world examples to look at, and we can compare systems country to country, even though no one country is going to be exactly the same as another.
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Re: SCOTUS Decision on Health Care

Postby Faust » Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:42 pm

nationalized health care is essentially the same as any public utility. We are forced to drive on public roads (although there are, relatively rarely, private rods) rather than over private property. And private property is regularly taken for this purpose. While the owners are compensated, they rarely have any recourse but to sell. They are forced into the real estate market, in other words. Other examples are rights of way for power lines - public utilities.

Capitalism does not mean that there is no public property, or that the rights of private property owners are superior to public interests in all cases.

And by the way, private health care is available all over europe. Nationalizing it here in the US would not preclude private health care.

The biggest problem is ignorance. The US has by far the highest per capita spending on health care because it has the least efficient system. It could be easily improved, with measures far short of full nationalization.
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Re: SCOTUS Decision on Health Care

Postby Helandhighwater » Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:57 pm

Faust wrote:nationalized health care is essentially the same as any public utility. We are forced to drive on public roads (although there are, relatively rarely, private rods) rather than over private property. And private property is regularly taken for this purpose. While the owners are compensated, they rarely have any recourse but to sell. They are forced into the real estate market, in other words. Other examples are rights of way for power lines - public utilities.

Capitalism does not mean that there is no public property, or that the rights of private property owners are superior to public interests in all cases.

And by the way, private health care is available all over europe. Nationalizing it here in the US would not preclude private health care.

The biggest problem is ignorance. The US has by far the highest per capita spending on health care because it has the least efficient system. It could be easily improved, with measures far short of full nationalization.


Er no what you are talking about is people having the choice to go private, but there being nationalised or universal health in Europe by default if you choose not to (something I have already said I approve of), that is far different from purely private health care. Hell we have private health care here for those who choose it, why would I make an argument that it does not work in conjunction with our NHS? Clearly having that choice is what most health care systems chose, with some notable exceptions, particularly outside of the Europe.

American capitalism is a joke really lets face it, I mean no disrespect, but your form of capitalism is not healthy and never has been, particularly in recent years, it seems a knee jerk style of capitalism where you have to be opposed to things by default (whether they make sense or not), and I suppose the events of the 20th century have a lot to answer for. I can't condemn the US for having an abject fear of anything that isn't their system, I'm sure the same thing would of happened to us given we are essentially very similar in our methods of government.
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Re: SCOTUS Decision on Health Care

Postby lizbethrose » Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:25 am

Jamazing wrote:
PART I—INDIVIDUAL RESPONSIBILITY
SEC. 1501. REQUIREMENT TO MAINTAIN MINIMUM ESSENTIAL COVERAGE.
(a) FINDINGS.—Congress makes the following findings:
(1) INGENERAL.—The individual responsibility requirement
provided for in this section (in this subsection referred to as
the ‘‘requirement’’) is commercial and economic in nature, and
substantially affects interstate commerce, as a result of the
effects described in paragraph (2).
(2) EFFECTS ON THE NATIONAL ECONOMY AND INTERSTATE
COMMERCE.—øReplaced by section 10106(a)¿ The effects
described in this paragraph are the following:
(A) The requirement regulates activity that is commer-
cial and economic in nature: economic and financial
decisions about how and when health care is paid for,
and when health insurance is purchased. In the absence
of the requirement, some individuals would make an eco-
nomic and financial decision to forego health insurance
coverage and attempt to self-insure, which increases finan-
cial risks to households and medical providers.


This is the response from Congress rather than the provision of the Act itself.

Every market I do not participate in causes the prices in that market to go up, that is common economics, unless demand surpasses supply. Why single out one market of healthcare insurance? For the betterment of that need of the market? Because you ideology says that we need to do that? The last time we had an ideology dictate a market through laws in the US we came up with Amendment 18, that worked out well.


You've so far quoted the Republican response to the HCRA and misapplied, or misunderstood, the XVIII Amendment. *Shakes head, trying to clear it in order to understand*

Why are you bringing up the Prohibition amendment? It didn't work at all well and has absolutely nothing to do with the topic.

Did the Republican response, which is apparently based on an infraction of the ISCA, take insurance portability into account. This is one of the provision of the HCRA. Or has/did Congress simply rely on the fact that the SCOTUS has traditionally found against any applicant by using the Interstate Commerce Act as the basis. The portability provision of the Act would allow anyone to carry the insurance s/he has purchased across state borders. That means, they wouldn't have to accept a possibly inferior product as they moved from job to job. This isn't a part of the suit and , yet, it could be found in violation of the ISCA.

Your employees are a part of your family and you treat them accordingly through Welfare Capitalism by offering them health care insurance coverage through your company. Am I correct so far? To do so costs your company $20,000 per employee, who choose the offered coverage, per year. Am I correct? (You still haven't answered whether or not you do so under government mandate for employers of over x number of people.)

Have you any other family--a wife, children? Do you provide health care coverage for them, or do they pay as they go?
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Re: SCOTUS Decision on Health Care

Postby uglypeoplefucking » Sat Jun 23, 2012 11:14 am

Jamazing wrote:
uglypeoplefucking wrote: My question is who cares if two nominally distinct markets are merged, if this leads to a better national healthcare system?


"Who cares if it leads to a better national healthcare system"? First, what guarantee do you have that it will be better, that is an assumption.


There are no guarantees, nor did i say there were. It will have to be tried if we are to find out whether or not it works better. I'm saying that if it does work better, then the tax penalty you will have to pay in order to remain uninsured is a reasonable trade off for a better functioning system that costs less and insures more people.

Second, the people I have to lay-off will care. My cost is not a "relatively small portion" to my operating cost. I pay over $20,000/year for each and every policy for my employees. Not all of them are currently enrolled in an insurance program right now.


If they are already enrolled they will not cost you any more than they do now. If they are not enrolled, i would have to ask why?

Every market I do not participate in causes the prices in that market to go up, that is common economics, unless demand surpasses supply. Why single out one market of healthcare insurance? For the betterment of that need of the market? Because you ideology says that we need to do that? The last time we had an ideology dictate a market through laws in the US we came up with Amendment 18, that worked out well.


Are you kidding? The current healthcare system is as much an ideological construction as anything else you might compare it to. Any privatized, capitalist, market-based system for something as universally necessarry as healthcare has its roots in ideology.

As for, "Nor do i see how it is fundamentally different from any other law that might force you into doing something you don't want to do, such as paying taxes . . ." It is not forcing me to pay a tax, it is forcing me into a market. That is a fundamental difference you seem to not be able to recognize.


You've repeatedly said it is fundamentally different, but not said how. But in any case, technically, you don't have to enter the market, you can simply remain out of it and pay the penalty.

Healthcare insurance is a privately owned market, owned and operated by private citizens. Healthcare is a privately owned market and a state operated program. Forcing me into a privately owned market is not the same as paying taxes. Forcing me into a privately owned market to make another private market and a government program cheaper and more affordable is not the purpose of the federal government and it's laws, that is how it is unconstitutional. It is beyond their authority and powers of commerce.


What part of the constitution prohibits "forcing one into a privately owned market to make another private market cheaper and more affordable"? It may be inconvenient to you, and it may contrast with your own ideology regarding how private markets ought work, but in what specific ways is it unconstitutional?
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Re: SCOTUS Decision on Health Care

Postby lizbethrose » Sat Jun 23, 2012 11:55 am

Why should health care insurance be privately owned? Or maybe I should ask what you mean by 'privately owned?' Investors make any company 'privately owned' don't they? This is called Investment Capitalism. If you invest in a corp, you own a part of the corp. It's then a privately-owned corp. Zuckerberg was Facebook, until he made Facebook public--Facebook was a individual corp, then it went public, but everyone who invested in FB made it 'private' again, because they now own a part of the corp.

There's been a lot of talk about public/private contracts for major construction projects that were formerly the responsibility of the joint efforts of the Federal and the State governments. What do you think that means?

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Re: SCOTUS Decision on Health Care

Postby Jamazing » Fri Jun 29, 2012 11:00 pm

lizbethrose wrote:This is the response from Congress rather than the provision of the Act itself.


Your employees are a part of your family and you treat them accordingly through Welfare Capitalism by offering them health care insurance coverage through your company. Am I correct so far? To do so costs your company $20,000 per employee, who choose the offered coverage, per year. Am I correct? (You still haven't answered whether or not you do so under government mandate for employers of over x number of people.)

Have you any other family--a wife, children? Do you provide health care coverage for them, or do they pay as they go?


This was quoted directly from the Bill, section 1501 of the H.R.3590 -- Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, that was passed by both houses.

Yes, this is an employee welfare benefit plan established by the employer. The coverage was chosen through a healthcare committee of representatives, chosen by the employees. There is no mandate in my local city/county/state to offer employees health insurance no matter the size of the number of employees. It is a voluntary action to offer this healthcare insurance program.

I am single and have always been single, no children or wife. These employees are my family and life, that is why the financial decisions I have to make right now are killing me. I know their spouses and children personally.

The numbers I am looking at right now have kept me up all night. I don't know how I can do it. I don't mind making life changing decisions for myself, but making them for so many families that I care about is overwhelming. I have built this company from 5 employees to 120 without many tough decisions, or troubles, it has been steady growth through the years. I now feel like I am staring into the abyss, I can't see a future in the horizon.
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