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Re: My (and Guattari's) impression of the "Occupy Movement"

PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:47 am
by Pezerocles
Jayson wrote:
Pezer wrote:Well... Complaining is free. I do agree that high horses and chairs are, perhaps, self-parodying when that complaining is not accompanied by action.

The action responsibility of the common citizen is to complain and praise, and vote for and vote against.
The action responsibility of legislative change is upon the representative citizens.
If action is failed, then it is by no fault of the complaining or praising citizenship.

The responsibility of leadership, in times of turmoil, is to discern the root of civil unrest, address the issues therein found, and to do so responsibly with respect of the rights of liberty, earnings of trust, and value of humanity.
The responsibility of the common citizen, in times of turmoil, is to respond in conscience, thought, and emotion to the fullest of their individual capacity - whatever that may be.


Here we disagree, because you see action, real action, as being the responsibility of legislative actors. I, like the ideal protester, see it as a responsibility of any human being. This is an anarchist way of thinking, as opposed to your statist way of thinking. But I think we do agree on what action itself essencialy means.

Re: My (and Guattari's) impression of the "Occupy Movement"

PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 1:01 am
by Jayson
I wasn't aware that you had any access to the legislative office and knew how to readdress the United States Code in session.

Re: My (and Guattari's) impression of the "Occupy Movement"

PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 2:02 am
by Pezerocles
Jayson wrote:I wasn't aware that you had any access to the legislative office and knew how to readdress the United States Code in session.


Case in point.

Re: My (and Guattari's) impression of the "Occupy Movement"

PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:28 am
by Jayson
Case in point to what?
If you are referring to a system of government simply existing at all, well that's not going to change.

Re: My (and Guattari's) impression of the "Occupy Movement"

PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:32 am
by Pezerocles
Jayson wrote:Case in point to what?
If you are referring to a system of government simply existing at all, well that's not going to change.


I'm just saying that you view government as a part of life, and I don't. Whatever. We can still agree on the definitions of words, we just have different perspectives. I managed to get you on the defensive somehow, and I'm sorry. Listen, if you like government, fine. I don't. Please respect that. I haven't attacked you or your beliefs, I have just pointed out a difference between them and mine.

Re: My (and Guattari's) impression of the "Occupy Movement"

PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:44 am
by Jayson
I view it as part of this life because it's everywhere you look if you live in any society with a few million people or more.

I'm not talking waxing poetics or philosophies of what would be ideal.

I'm not being defensive, I'm stating confusion because I don't see any practice function of bringing such a difference up when one of them is not currently a remote practice in reasonable expectation of this reality.

It bears about as much relevance to the current issues as if someone were to suggest that a god of some kind will sort things out.

Re: My (and Guattari's) impression of the "Occupy Movement"

PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:11 am
by Pezerocles
Jayson wrote:I view it as part of this life because it's everywhere you look if you live in any society with a few million people or more.

I'm not talking waxing poetics or philosophies of what would be ideal.

I'm not being defensive, I'm stating confusion because I don't see any practice function of bringing such a difference up when one of them is not currently a remote practice in reasonable expectation of this reality.

It bears about as much relevance to the current issues as if someone were to suggest that a god of some kind will sort things out.


You say potayto, I say potahto.

Re: My (and Guattari's) impression of the "Occupy Movement"

PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:20 am
by Jayson
more like I say Henry Ford and you say Willy Wonka.

Re: My (and Guattari's) impression of the "Occupy Movement"

PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:49 am
by Pezerocles
Jayson wrote:more like I say Henry Ford and you say Willy Wonka.


Good enough!

Re: My (and Guattari's) impression of the "Occupy Movement"

PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 8:31 am
by lizbethrose
I'm going to ask what some may consider a silly question--(I don't think it is, if it's thought about.) Is it possible to take politics out of governance?

Re: My (and Guattari's) impression of the "Occupy Movement"

PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 8:42 am
by Jayson
Yes. When you have small bands of people interdependent upon each other for livelihood and yet independent of other bands of people.
Isolated monastic monks are an easy example.

Re: My (and Guattari's) impression of the "Occupy Movement"

PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 1:11 pm
by Kriswest
there is a town here in the US that requires every household to have a gun. Very little crime there.
Each state has its own constitution. Who here thinks that there are 50 states? well you would be wrong by definition. California, Alaska and Texas are republics they belong by treaty.
Etc etc,, there are many things that are not taught anymore but you have access to information there at your finger tips, you can change things right now by using what is at your fingertips. we are the Government we can change things.

Re: My (and Guattari's) impression of the "Occupy Movement"

PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:58 pm
by Pezerocles
Jayson wrote:Yes. When you have small bands of people interdependent upon each other for livelihood and yet independent of other bands of people.
Isolated monastic monks are an easy example.


I don't think she means take government out of politics, i.e. anarchist communes or isolated monastic monks. I think she means take politics out of government, i.e. take the ideology out of the administration of a territorry.

Interesting idea liz; would you expand for us (that is, if I am right)?

Re: My (and Guattari's) impression of the "Occupy Movement"

PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 5:21 pm
by Duality
Kriswest wrote::lol: :lol: You don't get it do you ? look at what you are doing, you are no different than any that came before you. Your words as as old as humanity. the world rings with that attitude. And then folks wonder why there is no change. It starts somewhere someone has to quit passing the buck. So if you are quite willing to pass the buck, why would you ever complain? You are doing the same thing others do. So why? why care why worry why give a rats ass in hell since you pass the buck so quickly?

Ive already stated in this thread that I think this is the most important movement in US history since the Revolutionary War and that it will inevitably lead to large-scale social reform and the next stage in human evolution. People are ultimately limited by their environment in what they can accomplish at any given time. No individual is an island in society. So I don’t get where you think Im passing the buck.

And I don’t really do the same things others do at all otherwise we wouldn’t need this philosophy site. We are all outcasts to an extent. Im more likely to be found in some suburban hellhole bar drowning my sorrows in endless bottles of vodka and dry gin as day fades into endless night than I am to be at work.

I don’t trust the average chimp anymore than I need him to further my own ends. But I do need government to be destabilized more than it currently is and large groups of people desperate enough to be of use to me.


Jayson wrote:
Duality wrote:I will continue to make purchases from Wal-Mart until enough US citizens convince me that they are taking this up as a truly serious cause

Out of curiosity, and not being coy, how many would be enough?

It’s a personally intuitive call but some trigger cues would include protests of a significant scale (preferably including episodes of violent coercion) or large scale voter removal of government officials (unlikely to happen imo).

Re: My (and Guattari's) impression of the "Occupy Movement"

PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 10:23 pm
by Jayson
5,000 to 10,000 people in port of Oakland.
Somewhere between 10,000 to 30,000 people in New York.
That's just two places quickly off the top of my head.
Portland Oregon is going to be kicking up a march similar to these on the 12th soon as well.

I haven't researched too much into LA, or other areas which are active.

Estimates are anywhere around ~3,000 to 5,000 arrests total combined...so far.

To me...I watched the live footage on November 17th, not on news (they were covering Michael Jackson and Penn State issues) but on livestream.com which had a constant stream of any live camera rolling they could get feed of.
That mass at the march and at Foley square, not counting Union square - as there were no camera shots coming from there to see - was....insanity.

It was so dense; I'm quite sure the reported estimates of near 20 to 30,000 weren't too far off.
I even flipped on my computer capture camstudio to snag a clip of just how massive it was because I honestly could not believe that I was seeing anything that large of a protest in my life.
I really had thought the spirit of America had died long ago with the last thing people gave that much of a shit about being racial inequality, which the movement ended 11 years prior to my birth, so I've never seen America try to move and push for anything socially to change.

I've seen protests, plenty, and they usually are a couple thousand at best and fizzle out within a week or so and are on issues I can't even comprehend people bitching about; like animal rights or the like.

So I'm not really sure how many people is really the count here for what you might consider enough.
I wonder if the current age of insta-news removes the impact of numbers...for instance...aside from the never-before-or-again-accomplished Civil Rights movement March on Washington which had between 2 and 300 thousand people; the average marches and actions were between 1,000 and 20,000 people depending.

The famous Selma to Montgomery marches were only around 600 some-odd people.

Going back farther, the union movements of the 30's - the now infamous "Ford Hunger March" in Detroit was somewhere in between 3 and 5,000 people.

There are 70 major cities and over 600 communities across the nation actively involved in these protests; that's not counting small groups that get ignored [reasonably] (like, for instance, the poor bastards standing up here in Alaska in the middle of winter - all 12 to 20 of them; what the hell, I still can't figure that one out...I'm sorry, but it's too damn cold up here to be standing outside protesting like that! Wait for spring!).

I know you said intuition, but why hasn't your intuition found these volumes impressive already?
Considering, as I've pointed out, it's at least as large as previous social revolution movements on the average in regards to marches and protest actions....there could quite easily be 100,000 or so people that would show up if there was a Woodstock of the Occupy movement held, or if there could be a charismatic leader like Martin Luther King Jr. were to appear somewhere. Both of which may still happen.
Then again, the latter may not - the Occupy movement is kind of about, "We the people...", concepts and not one man speaking...but we'll see.

Re: My (and Guattari's) impression of the "Occupy Movement"

PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 11:00 pm
by Fixed Cross
Being integral part of the system is not necessarily a bad thing of course, it depends on how one defines "the system". If the system is "the world", then being part of it is better than not to be.

The protesters are subservient to the specific practices they are protesting against, until they formulate a usable new set of laws, rules, and manage to create a space in the media for them. They need to become a philosophical movement.

This is what they are waiting for, ideas, thought, philosophy. Of course I would refer to value ontology, if I had the intention of hijacking this thread. We must perhaps in time 'hijack' (give direction to) the entire movement. It would be a waste to have it go down as yet another slave-revolt, there can more to it than that.

Re: My (and Guattari's) impression of the "Occupy Movement"

PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 11:32 pm
by Pezerocles
Fixed Cross wrote:Being integral part of the system is not necessarily a bad thing of course, it depends on how one defines "the system". If the system is "the world", then being part of it is better than not to be.

The protesters are subservient to the specific practices they are protesting against, until they formulate a usable new set of laws, rules, and manage to create a space in the media for them. They need to become a philosophical movement.

This is what they are waiting for, ideas, thought, philosophy. Of course I would refer to value ontology, if I had the intention of hijacking this thread. We must perhaps in time 'hijack' (give direction to) the entire movement. It would be a waste to have it go down as yet another slave-revolt, there can more to it than that.


No need to hijack in order to introduce value ontology here. In fact, this is a good test of it's elasticity! How can you value something that is part of a pre-existing system?

Btw, I don't mean "the world" when I say "the system". I mean "integrated world capitalism", to use Guattari's words.

Re: My (and Guattari's) impression of the "Occupy Movement"

PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 12:11 am
by Fixed Cross
First of all the Occupy movement would have to establish its self-valu(e)(ing).

In it in fact a classical case of "slave-morality" versus "master-morality", as I've explained... elsewhere.
Holding a slave-morality means to not have ones natural self-valuing produce a conscious notion of self-value self-value. It means to adopt a conscious self-value by the negative valuation of the/an Other.

The Occupy movement has a lot of vitality and good will, but is not able to formulate its values beyond "away with the evil X". It is not able to posit a value in its stead. It does not have its own value, for its value it is entirely dependent on the thing it is protesting against. As long as this is the case, it will have no effect, it could not possibly have an effect.

There is of course a lot of self-valuing going on within the movement, i.e. people, organisms. But all these are subjecting themselves to what is, thusfar, a slave-revolt. Nothing wrong with a slave revolt, but it will not see any of its demands realized if these demands are not formulated as positives, meaning formula's capable of replacing the "evil" ones.

This is the finest tip of the iceberg of what can be said of Occupy in terms of value-ontology. The bulk of it would come down to actually formulate a (possible) philosophy for it, to forge it into a "Master Signifier" - an authentic, original voice. Of course value-ontology pertains quite acutely to the financial world and what is wrong with it. To begin with, all of the disasters and exorbitant payments to the masters of these disasters, are based on disregarding, or rather violating, the concept of value. In short: speculative value has replaced functional value. That which is of value to value-determining institutions (Moody's, etc) does not have anything whatsoever to do to what is of value to a human.

Value needs to be restored in its definition. The speculative market will have to be dramatically curbed and reformed, rationalized. Without joking, we now have the tools to do this. A thorough understanding of the concept value was lacking. This is how it could be diffused through focusing on very conditional/context bound derivatives as if they are the actual concept, thereby gradually disconnecting the notion value from its conceptual root, which is actual, real-world value, i.e. that which is valuable to (a) (human) life.

This is how the Occupy movement may look for its signifier (instead of bloody-faced idiotic grins); to collect/assemble around it those things which are of real value to the participating people. To create/build a "mountain of wealth" in human terms -- that is to say not hummers, prostitutes and dollar bills, but the diversity of real-world value coming together wherever many people are assembled for a long time, which translates into 'culture'.

Re: My (and Guattari's) impression of the "Occupy Movement"

PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 12:41 am
by Fixed Cross
This last thing would serve only to gain them some real credibility. The question most people are immediately asking themselves subconsciously is "would I rather be ruled by the Wall Street bankers or by the Occupy protesters?" Even if the bankers have done a bad job, there is no saying what kind of mess the protesters may make.

It would not yet produce that which is to be believed (in order for which they should be credible) which is their philosophy. It is my very simple proposition that this philosophy should, or at least very well might be, value-ontology, as this addresses the practices Occupy is protesting against, and gives a logically tenable explanation of why such practices should be outlawed.

Re: My (and Guattari's) impression of the "Occupy Movement"

PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 1:00 am
by Duality
Jayson wrote:5,000 to 10,000 people in port of Oakland.
Somewhere between 10,000 to 30,000 people in New York.
That's just two places quickly off the top of my head.
Portland Oregon is going to be kicking up a march similar to these on the 12th soon as well.

I haven't researched too much into LA, or other areas which are active.

Estimates are anywhere around ~3,000 to 5,000 arrests total combined...so far.

To me...I watched the live footage on November 17th, not on news (they were covering Michael Jackson and Penn State issues) but on livestream.com which had a constant stream of any live camera rolling they could get feed of.
That mass at the march and at Foley square, not counting Union square - as there were no camera shots coming from there to see - was....insanity.

It was so dense; I'm quite sure the reported estimates of near 20 to 30,000 weren't too far off.
I even flipped on my computer capture camstudio to snag a clip of just how massive it was because I honestly could not believe that I was seeing anything that large of a protest in my life.
I really had thought the spirit of America had died long ago with the last thing people gave that much of a shit about being racial inequality, which the movement ended 11 years prior to my birth, so I've never seen America try to move and push for anything socially to change.

I've seen protests, plenty, and they usually are a couple thousand at best and fizzle out within a week or so and are on issues I can't even comprehend people bitching about; like animal rights or the like.

So I'm not really sure how many people is really the count here for what you might consider enough.
I wonder if the current age of insta-news removes the impact of numbers...for instance...aside from the never-before-or-again-accomplished Civil Rights movement March on Washington which had between 2 and 300 thousand people; the average marches and actions were between 1,000 and 20,000 people depending.

The famous Selma to Montgomery marches were only around 600 some-odd people.

Going back farther, the union movements of the 30's - the now infamous "Ford Hunger March" in Detroit was somewhere in between 3 and 5,000 people.

There are 70 major cities and over 600 communities across the nation actively involved in these protests; that's not counting small groups that get ignored [reasonably] (like, for instance, the poor bastards standing up here in Alaska in the middle of winter - all 12 to 20 of them; what the hell, I still can't figure that one out...I'm sorry, but it's too damn cold up here to be standing outside protesting like that! Wait for spring!).

Im sure the news plays some part in it

You have to take population in context also
1930
123,202,624
1970
203,211,926
2010
308,745,538

America was 1/3 todays size in the 30s and 2/3 in the 70s


Jayson wrote:I know you said intuition, but why hasn't your intuition found these volumes impressive already?
Considering, as I've pointed out, it's at least as large as previous social revolution movements on the average in regards to marches and protest actions....there could quite easily be 100,000 or so people that would show up if there was a Woodstock of the Occupy movement held, or if there could be a charismatic leader like Martin Luther King Jr. were to appear somewhere. Both of which may still happen.
Then again, the latter may not - the Occupy movement is kind of about, "We the people...", concepts and not one man speaking...but we'll see.

I think my main problem right now with Occupy is too many of them seem to be trying to turn this into a family gathering as opposed to a We-are-tired-of-this-horeshit type of protest.

If all they wanna do is prop up some signs in a police-sanctioned area and cross their fingers that the government will magically take them into account, then thats cool. I am not interested in participating in a dickwaving exhibition.

If/ when I see more civil disobedience and shit that is actually impacful, I think it would raise my spirits.

Re: My (and Guattari's) impression of the "Occupy Movement"

PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 1:29 am
by Jayson
Regarding Population....
So you want to see 0.009% of the population (the comparative levels of the previous movements to their respective total national populations) reacting visibly rather than the current 0.006%?

So, essentially, you would like 30,000 people instead of 20,000 people in one spot - effectively.
That's how small of a difference you are talking about btw...the difference between a 20k and 30k crowd respectively to population total.

I see more civil disobedience...

:o
They have been...good lord.
So much so that, if you hang around the Occupy forums, there is now a pollution of arguments over conducting civil disobedience.
The whole 4 to 5thousand people arrested have been arrested for civil disobedience charges.

These people have been clubbed and maced constantly, even when not arrested, for charges and claims of civil disobedience.

This doesn't count?






I think it sounds like what you want is a riot, as was held in England.

Re: My (and Guattari's) impression of the "Occupy Movement"

PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 2:03 am
by Duality
Jayson wrote:Regarding Population....
So you want to see 0.009% of the population (the comparative levels of the previous movements to their respective total national populations) reacting visibly rather than the current 0.006%?

So, essentially, you would like 30,000 people instead of 20,000 people in one spot - effectively.
That's how small of a difference you are talking about btw...the difference between a 20k and 30k crowd respectively to population total.

Yea I predicted that in a few months or so it would be at the stage where I wanted it. I put those stats up just for frame of reference, but I think the true tipping point hasnt begun yet.

Jayson wrote:
I see more civil disobedience...

:o
They have been...good lord.
So much so that, if you hang around the Occupy forums, there is now a pollution of arguments over conducting civil disobedience.
The whole 4 to 5thousand people arrested have been arrested for civil disobedience charges.

These people have been clubbed and maced constantly, even when not arrested, for charges and claims of civil disobedience.

I think it sounds like what you want is a riot, as was held in England

Those videos are all passive resistence. Its basically conducting civil disobedience in order to get your ass beat/locked up by cops. What’s the point of that? Its like trying to boycott a supermarket by starving yourself.

defeats it’s own purpose

Re: My (and Guattari's) impression of the "Occupy Movement"

PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 2:38 am
by Fixed Cross
See this is exactly why the movement is not yet capable of representing an improvement. They are still inferior in standards to the people they are protesting against, because they have only "no" as a standard. They are not capable of a "yes", because this takes creative minds, and disciplined thinking.

"Civic disobedience" as an ideal, as a measure of potency, this is still pure slave-revolt. Zizek calling out "we are not going away, look at us" is not going to change anything. Neo-Marxism is not going to do the job. We need a revaluation of values -- of value, and it is the question if the occupy movement is a good enough vessel for a philosophical redesigning of western civilization.

I must conclude that the OP is right. But it doesn't have to be like this, in fact I am sure that at one point, if this movement persists (and I am sure that it will), it may acquire political substance, which means a decently worked out value-system, enabling such things as rational representation. I urge anyone who is sympathetic toward this movement and its general sentiment of disapproving of speculative banking/investing, the practice that now passes for capitalism, to take a look at value-ontology (do a search on it) and take from it what suits you.

There are not many thoughts around that can make a true difference in the way economies in the west are being run. "The will to power", for example, only supports the present way of dealing. With a philosophical centralization of the term "value", the study of what value is, how we can recognize and establish it, the current dealings become instantly recognizable as stupid, anti-natural, and doomed to drag whatever gets mixed up in it into chaos, and it sets against it a principle that may very naturally lead to a gradual stabilization of the balance between production and profit, enabling a slow and stable economic growth.

Re: My (and Guattari's) impression of the "Occupy Movement"

PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 3:16 am
by Jayson
Thomas Jefferson wrote:The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions, it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. ... What country before ever existed a century and half without a rebellion? And what country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon and pacify them.

Re: My (and Guattari's) impression of the "Occupy Movement"

PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 3:32 am
by Pezerocles
edit - deleted comment with video of more hardcore police supression of a protest than in the Occupy protests in another country. there would be no point, why compare dick sizes?