I have a very strong sense of nationality and where I come from. does any one think that a strong sense of nationality in a way links to racism or put it less strongly, discrimination against other nationality? I was arguing about this with a friend the other day for a couple of hours and couldn’t quite reach a conclusion.
I don’t see how nationalism can ever be properly linked with racism and/or discrimination.
Natiolism is basically - in my eyes - a strong devotion to your country, and your country’s culture. Period.
It would be an entirely different matter, if you’d put other contries down because of your strong nationalistic feelings for your country, though.
In that case it would be a combination of discrimination and nationalism.
(Extreme patriotism pops up in my mind while typing this.)
So to sum it up: no, I don’t find strong nationalistic feelings linking to discrimination.
what is in my mind is that if you have many different groups in a society in which the people belonging to one particular group always act in a way to maximise benifit to that particular group, competition is inevitable between the groups. when this sort of competition arises it will inevitably wide the gap between the groups further and further. do you not think that these huge gaps between nations may be the source of discrination? especially when one group manages to be ahead of the others in the competition.
Yan
These gaps cause more than discrimination. Both world wars can be linked to strong nationalistic (jingoist) feelings amoung the nations involved.
Nationalism is separating yourself from the rest of humanity. Nationalism gives birth to “we don’t have to do anything to help them” and “glad that’s not us” sentiments. By attaching yourself so strongly to one group, you are seperating yourself from the rest of humanity as a whole and people begin to lose sight of the interconnectedness of the world. When people don’t realize that everything is connected you have United States Presidents (Reagan) not doing anything about AIDS in its early stages in the U.S. because it’s only a problem for gays, and they are “sinners” so just let them die. Or not doing anything to stop Hitler because Europe is on another continent entirely.
yes, i think this is true, for the most part. anyone should be able to see that a strong current of nationalsm in a country (and among that country’s people) can be used to incite a variety of thoughts, behaviors or attitudes towards a particular country or group.
it is used to set up an “us vs. them” type of attitude (which, as was said, can be used to justify war, genocide, “pre-emptive attacks” and so on). there is an element of righteousness among any strongly nationalistic people that is like …“we’re the keepers of (freedom, justice, morality, etc etc). we know what’s right, and we can’t be told otherwise. it is our moral obligation to make sure things go our way.”
it usually helps (as far as the general population or “masses” are concerned) to throw in some religious overtones, which adds elements of exclusivity as well as urgency (among other things of course)… “we MUST fight terrorism because we’re the lone guardians of truth and justice in the world. we must fight terrorism because that’s what god would want us to do.”
of course i made those little examples up, but things like that are said all time time. and if you look out for statements like that (coming from ANYWHERE), they’re really not hard to find. al qaeda/osama types all believe that they’re fighting a holy war that they just CAN’T lose because god is on their side. and similar statements have been made (by Bush) with regard to the “cosmic status” of the US with respect to the war on terror… (“we gotta kill them terrorists because its what god would want us to do”…) so its natural to invoke that sort of thing when you’re seeking to gain the support of “the masses”.
which leads me to the belief that… if you are an extreme, “hardcore” nationalist (i don’t care where you live), you’ve been duped. you’ve fallen right into the trap of thinking just what “they” (the ruling class/the government/whatever) want you to think. once you think that your country is the greatest, then you’ll accept any number of atrocities committed in the name of your country. you’ll say, “hey, killing countless civilian iraqis is a small price to pay for the freedom and justice that will be gained in the world”. or you might say “sure, we ought to exterminate every jew on the planet…” …or you could find a million examples throughout history.
i don’t think a sense of nationalism is healthy. i don’t think there are any “arguments” that make it justifiable or ok. (i mean only STRONG nationalism.) i think it is a primary symptom of standard propaganda techniques… if you are a person with a strong sense of nationalism… that could be dangerous. i’d suggest a re-assessment of that belief, taking into account the interests of the groups of people in power (the ones feeding you all that nationalistic jargon).
I’m fully aware of the danger of being too strong a nationalist. and I hate to think that politicians really are trying to make use of sense of nationality in order to comit crimes (though it is true). I think that a strong sense of nationality should be kept however, much education (independent from politicians of course) is required so that the sense cannot be manipulated.
my feeling that every one should have a sense of nationality is that it is a way of, if you like, saying thanks to the people and the land that has brought you up. I feel that I have an ancestral relationship with the root of my country and that without the root, I wouldn’t have been here. therefore I should live my life in a way that I can contribute to my country as a way of thanking the country.
I know that there are flaws in this argument, such as one can insist that humans come from the same origin so that we should work to contribute to humans but not a specific country. but…
Yan
Acknowledgment and even a little bit of pride in your ancestry and the founders of the ideals you subscribe to, is quite a bit different from destructive forms of nationalism. But those ideas have similarities to jingoism that can be recognized and overcome/ignored within our selves. And propaganda that plays off of these feelings most definately needs to be recognized. “Whenever I read ‘IN GOD WE TRUST’ All I see is ‘GOD WORKS THROUGH US’”
I do feel a bond to my fellow Americans, but I also feel a bond to my fellow Germans, Irishmen and Norwegians even though I have never been to any of these countries, but my grandparents were born there. And like you said, yankit, I feel a bond to Africans and all humans, because we all came from the same place.
It’s really in how you look at it though, you can say that you feel like doing something for the country that reared you; but I can’t do that because to me that implies that I would be doing something for the government that has stolen my consent and ran my name as an United States Citizen through the mud and blood. I’d rather do something for my fellow countrymen, the people of my (local) community. But, if you think about it we’re all part of the world community, whether we realize it or not.
I always say that what we need is some aliens from space to wage an unjust war on us so that the ear people can be united to fight off teh aliens. what do you think?
Here’s a read from George Orwell entitled “Notes on Nationalism” that always comes to mind when bringing up this discussion: http://www.resort.com/~prime8/Orwell/nationalism.html
I really like the way Orwell defines “nationalism:”
thanks for the article.
the topic reminds of “clash of civilisations” actually
Yan
Hi,
I don’t believe that devotion to the interests or culture of one’s nation is anything but normal. It is important to know where I come from and know what is good about my country and my people. What I think would be a sign of maturity would show itself in the readiness to get problems named and solved, even if it means exposing a problem that others want to hide.
I have difficulties with the belief that my nation will benefit from acting independently rather than collectively, emphasizing national rather than international goals. If there is something that has become clear to me, it is the fact that problems are best solved when I have as much imput from as many people as possible. Therefore, although it may be harder work, I believe international solutions are more effective that national ones.
So nationalism isn’t dirty word in itself, but if racism uses nationalism, or if the national pride takes on a form that is abusive to others, that is when problems arise. Devotion to the welfare of one’s country is good, as long as it doesn’t oppress others. The passion which inspires one to serve one’s country is good, as long as we do not assume that to serve ones own country, one has to keep down other countries by severe and unjust use of force.
Shalom
Bob