What are the doctrines of National Socialism?
- Concentration Camps
- Racial Segragation
- Propaganda
- Belligerence in Foreign Policy
- Nationalism
- Alliances with similar governments
What government adhers to each and every single one of these?
sigh Do you really think there is value to comparing Israel to the Nazis? Your post has no content or positive criticism. It is just a horrible and cheap dig at the millions who suffered and lost their lives. It makes me sick reading stuff like this because it is false and has no point.
I don’t think you really thought about any of the points you put down but I shall refute them now and ask you to provide any evidence to the contrary, not because I believe all the actions of the Israeli government are right but because I believe in honestly criticising a government instead of using false information or half-truths to compare a nation with the atrocities of Nazi Germany.
Concentration Camps - What do you mean by concentration camps? Are you referring to the death camps of Nazi Germany? If so, please show me where they are and who exactly is gassing who in what chambers and burning who in what furnaces and burying who in what mass graves and experiments on who in what inhumane ways. Oh, you don’t mean that? You mean the Palestinians are living in terrible conditions because of the occupation? Well, why didn’t you say so? We agree on that and something must be done about it. Or was it rather, you don’t really care about the Palestinians, you’re more interested in jumping on the Anti-Israel bandwagon because you get to compare it with Hitler? Seriously, be honest with your beliefs and convictions and we might get somewhere.
Racial Segregation - What do you mean by this? You mean that the Israelis and the Palestinians are in different areas? Oh wait a minute, that’s what the Palestinians want, a self-determined autonomous region of land to call Palestine. Gee, let’s criticise Israel for Palestinians wanting to be separate from Israel, that’s logical. Or are you talking about Arabs who live inside of Israel, some who live in separate neighbourhoods and some who don’t. You’re right, they don’t always get the same governmental support as Jewish neighbourhoods, that is a problem which needs to be addressed and already is by organisations like Givat Haviva (Arab-Israeli solidarity organisation). Are either of theses governmental racial segregation? Does anyone have to sit in a different area on a bus, in a restaurant, in a public toilet. Is one group a slave nation to another and afforded no rights? No? Oh ok, so you didn’t mean racial segregation at all then. Why did you say it?
Propoganda - Not entirely sure what this is supposed to mean. So any government which uses propoganda is a Nazi government? I can’t think of a government around the world including USA and UK which doesn’t use propoganda, that’s what Election campaigns are about. It’s a logical fallacy to say that just because the Nazi’s used propoganda therefore everyone who uses propoganda is a Nazi. This goes for belligerence in foreign policy. Firstly, which specific policies are you talking about? I’m interested to know your depth of knowledge on Israel’s foreign policy. Secondly, find me a nation which hasn’t at one time or another been belligerent in foreign policy. Does that mean we’re all Nazis?
Nationalism - Yup that’s right, Israel is a nationalist state because its people have a “love of country and willingness to sacrifice for it”. Hmm…doesn’t sound as bad as you thought right? Before you can understand the dilemmas and complexities of Israel as a Jewish state you need to understand the history of its creation, the plight of the Jewish people, their identity and the need for a safe haven and cultural centre. Israel would not work without a Jewish majority and for its continued existence needs to have a biased immigration policy. By denying Israel the right to this policy you are denying its right to exist. I won’t deny there is a tension between being an exclusive Jewish state and a state like any other. However, I’ve researched and studied it and I’m acknowledging the tension. Have you?
Alliances with similar governments - Er ok, are you suggesting governments ally with their enemies?
As I’ve said above, I do not agree with all of Israel’s governmental policies. I believe in a Palestinian State, I believe in human rights and justice for the Palestinian people. However, criticising Israel’s government is different to comparing the whole nation to the regime who tried to exterminate them. If you’re really interested in helping out in the middle east you’d do better with honest critcism and integrity in your action as opposed to off the cuff remarks and Nazism and Racism.
- ben
What do you mean by Israel? The government or the people? Both are completely seperate and throughout history gov’ts are almost always enemies of the people. I can’t find enough evidence to back this up. I’m taking a cheap dig at millions? No, I’m attacking a government and creating a satire of this. Remember that Jews (I have Jewish ancestors by the way) made only a third of the people of the people killed under Hitler (correct me if I’m wrong). What about gays, blacks,Arabs, leftists, liberals etc?.
Concentration Camps?- Have you heard of Sabra and Shatila?
Racial Segregation - http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,93521,00.html
Propaganda - Look how Arabs were painted as evil after 9/11, when the American gov’t was partly responsible (I don’t want to go into this now but
I will have an essay in the works that quotes from mainstream sources to exemplify the flaws in the Official Story http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/07/26/national/main303601.shtml )
Nationalism- You’re defination of nationalism is rather suspect.
Alliances with similar Gov’ts- I was referring to the US.
I apologise if my post offended, I just find it rather enraging how people view Sharon as a hero when he is blantantly a war criminal. As for you’re support for a Palestian state I’d condone that if I hadn’t lost all faith in government.
Agreed. When we criticise Israel we should focus on the governmental policies and not the nation, in the same way we criticise Bush and not every citizen of the USA, and Blair not the UK population.
Erm? Not entirely what to say here. Shooting yourself in the foot?
I’m not sure what’s so ‘satire’ about looking at a campaign run by the Anti-Defamation Leauge which promotes democracy in the Middle East and then posting here about how the Israeli government is comparative to Nazi Germany?
You’re right. But note that I never singled out Jews in my post, you just did. And just because it wasn’t only Jews who died in the holocaust, what’s your point? Is the fact that not only Jews died some sort of argument for your “Israel is Nazi” claim? Don’t think so.
Yes. I’ve even read about them. Have you?
Hmm…doesn’t sound like a concentration camp to me. Doesn’t even sound like they were Israeli controlled. Let’s read on shall we?
Right, so Israel ordered an inquiry into the Sabra and Shatilla massacres and found their army to be indirectly responsible and dismissed those who gave the orders, Ariel Sharon and Raful Eitan. They were wrong and paid the price for it. In what possible way is the description of Sabra and Shatila anything like a concentration camp? In what way was Israel controlling these refugee camps?
I’m not sure one article on a law denying Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza Strip who marry Israeli Arabs from obtaining residency permits in Israel equates to racial segregation. I agree, this definitely a contentious issue. My opinion (although in a debate i realise means very little because of the bias) is that this law is purely there to stop terrorism. Why do I think that? Because the current situation in Israel has been around since 1967. Why didn’t Israel pass the law sooner? Why only now, during the height of terrorism has this law been passed and only for one year. These are not the actions of a racist state, but actions of a state protecting its national security. However, I definitely acknowledge the consequences of such a law and I am glad the democracy of Israel allows there to be opposition and monitoring.
Er? How exactly is Israel responsible for Arabs being painted as evil? If anything this was a world phenomenon and was more targetted towards Islam than Arabs. I agree it was an irrational and unjustified stereotype but it certainly wasn’t one promoted by Israel. Please don’t wave false claims at Israel to backup your flimsy argument. That’s an honest plea. As an Israel advocate I enjoy discussing honestly about Israeli governmental policy and how I want to change Israel for the better. I don’t enjoy refuting false claims and poor arguments which have no base or worse, alterior motives.
The definition comes from WordNet, a fairly mainstream internet dictionary. Try dict.org. I’m happy to debate different definitons of nationalism but perhaps we should discuss what aspect of nationalism you find disagreeable. I too am uncomfortable with some of its aspects but I am comfortable in my affirmation of Israel’s existence. I can’t really say much else than that because you haven’t provided me with a counter-argument just that you didn’t like my definition.
Then kindly keep that to your “Anti-America” posts. Israel gets enough shtick without needing to deal with criticisms meant for OTHER countries.
I find it just as enraging that Yassir Arafat was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize when his Fatah group still to this day funds terrorist groups like the Tanzin and the Al-Aqsa Martyrs. I guess we just have to live with out grievances.
I can’t really help with your lack of faith in government. I sitll have faith because I have faith in the ability of those who care. The activists, the demonstrators, the protestors, the people who strive and care for a better world. These are the people who will steer the government and who will ultimately change the world, while the rest sit idly by as if waiting for someone else to bring peace to the middle east. I know which group I strive to be in.
You know, no matter how much you twist it Israel is still a sovereign nation defending its territory from invasion and attacks, and it has every right to retaliate as necessary to fend off the Palestinian aggression.
How?
Yes and from here a slightly more realiable source than you have.
Does this imply that you think all Palestinians are terrorists? I don’t see how that statement could be interpretated any other way. As for one article, I could find dozens but I don’t want to waste you’re time. Do a google search instead for “Israel, Palestine, Marriages, Law”.
Well, you’re Gov’t doesn’t in the slightest stereotype Arabs as terrorists as that FoxNews article shows 
Standing outside a town hall with a sign won’t change anything. People were doing that against the Iraq War (millions). Did it change anything?
Anti-America, how? How can you justify the obscene amount of military aid that goes to Israel when there are people all across the world that would use that money to feed themselves instead of killing disabled Palestinians and blowing up their homes.
edit- Israel gets “shtick”? Erm, have you heard about the death threats sent to Robert Fisk? Whilst, Israel may get a little “shtick”, critics of Israel get death threats, hate mail and villification as “antisemites”.
I concur. The Nobel Peace Prize goes to some pretty disgusting people. Like Henry Kissinger. An ardent supporter of Israel.
Interesting how the pro-Israel side never quote any form of statistics
From Sept. 29, 2000 to September 14, 2003: Israeli Dead: 797
Palestinian Dead: 2480
Source:Middle East Policy Council
But, yeah I suppose I am twisting it.
I just wish to point out that Israelis the only democratic country in the Middle-East. All Israeli citizens, both Jews and Arabs have the right to vote and run for government. Arab politicians sit in the Knesset, Arab organisations and organisations concerned with co-existence recieve government funding and Arab families recieve government welfare. Feel free to criticise but before making blanket judgements try and open your mind to some of the facts.
Yes, except for Armenia, Turkey, Syria, Lebanon, Yemen, Jordan and Egypt. Let’s not forget that dictators in the Middle East were backed by the west.
Like these families?
http://www.mediamonitors.net/halper4.html
More than 250 Palestinian and 72 Israeli children have been killed in Israel and the Occupied Territories in the past 23 months.
Discrimination Against Palestinian Arab Children in Israel’s Schools
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Statistics don’t show who STARTED IT ALL. And the Palestinians started it. If a lot of killing is what is necessary for Israel to defend itself, so be it.
No, they didn’t. Arabs were living in that area until Jews came and kicked them out and destroyed their villiages. You can see the villages here
edit- you call children a threat to Israel?
http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/index.asp
— Although i feel no need to denigrate or blame Israel, i know that the palestinians are currently one of the most persecuted people in the World. The very word ‘palestinian’ comes from ‘philistine’ which has a negative connotation. The facts that they tend to reside over vast amounts of fossil fuel, that the US financially supports Israel, and that some moslem religious sects are extremely violent only tend to exacerbate the problem to the detriment of the overall general losers, the Arabian people.
You are correct in the word’s etymology but the name was not given to the current group of people who now call themselves ‘Palestinians’. The name Palestine was given to the region (now split into Israel, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon etc.) by the Romans.
Source: christianactionforisrael.org/isr … stine.html
Note, the source was not chosen for it’s bias towards Israel. My reason for posting this is merely as an interesting fact and not in anyway to make some sort of political point. Palestine was a word give to the region by the Romans to infuriate the Jews.
Another interesting point was that during the British Mandate of Palestine 1922-1945, Jews in the area referred to themselves as Palestinians. One Jewish daily newspaper was known as “The Palestine Post” (later to become the Jerusalem Post) and the company that makes sweet dessert wines which many Jews still drink today was called Palwin, a shortening of Palestinian Wine. It’s interesting how names and identities can change over time and how peoples attitudes towards the symbol of a name can be reversed.
The identity of todays Palestinians has nothing to do with the original naming of the region Palestine. They also have no links (and do not claim to) with the phillistines of the bible.
Cheers
- ben
Although the term “Philistine” would be appropriate given their evil, boorish behavior towards Israel.
— Thanks Ben, that was both interesting and informative. What do you think is the solution to the Israeli/Palestine problem?
— It’s nice to know someone out there supports the oppressed. I think our perception of Islam in the west is largely tainted.
Yeah, damn it, western imperialists have done it before, why shouldn’t they carry on doing it? If only South Africa had had the same kind of leader as Sharon and kicked all those nasty blacks out of their country. Maybe they could have built a huge wall to keep them all out too.
Would there be all this trouble in the region if all those Europeans hadn’t flooded the region and commited terrorist acts in order to force the British to give them a state? Some might call the fact that they are now plagued by terrorism poetic justice, but to me it’s all just terribly depressing.
Kurt Weber wrote:
i must admit, i’ve been contemplating replying seriously to this, given kurt’s notorious ignorantly posts on ilp. but i believe that racist slurs should be struck down. so i’m striking. kurt, get the dick out of your ear and wake up. your statement is absurd. the only evil is ignornace, and comments like that lead me to believe you’re on par with the devil.
Applauds trix wildly