Should Israel exist?

A rather controversial topic for someone living in Israel to bring up but having just returned from a seminar on Zionism, the issue has been going round and round in my head and what better place to thrash my ideas out than here.

The definition of Zionism is hazy, it ranges from being a belief that all Jews should live in the Jewish State of Israel in the land that was Palestine to those who accept the need for a Jewish state although not necessarily in a specific place. This is not the topic of this discussion but it is definitely an interesting debate.

Here are the facts as I see them. Israel is a “Jewish State”. What does it mean to be a Jewish state? This is another grey area and it raises the issue of the relationship between religion and state. On saturday in Israel, mosts shops are closed to observe the Jewish Sabbath. Jewish traditions are taught in schools and the state funds synagogues, jewish schools, jewish education etc. This already raises a few problems. A huge majority of 70% of Israelis are secular, i.e. they do not ally themselves to any denomination of the Jewish religion. What then, does it mean for them to be in a Jewish state?

Zionism has existed for many centuries but it became a politicial movement in the late 19th century with figureheads being Theodore Herzl, A.D Gordon, Ber Borochov and Rav Kook. They all had varying ideas about the creation of a Jewish state and they all expressed their opinions in the first Zionist Congress in 1897. At the time, there was also an anti-Zionist movement known as the Bund which encouraged Jews to become assimilated in society rather than segragating themselves into a discrete community. A large push for the Zionist movement came with the wave of anti-semitism which was rising in Europe at the time. Herzl and the others suggested that the only solution to the anti-semitism was to create a Jewish state where Jews could live freely without persecution. Herzl himself didn’t specify where the Jewish state should be and originally suggested Uganda.

This is where my first problem lies. By creating a Jewish state and moving all the Jews to one area, you are not getting rid of anti-semitism. By separating an entire “nation” of people from the rest of the world, surely you are only provoking racism and division? The immediate thought for me would not be to move all the Jews out of society but rather educate society to accept and understand Judaism. It seems that the Holocaust was a big push towards creating the Jewish state since the UN signed a declaration giving Jews the land of Palestine soon after. Did the UN have the right to sign over an area of land to a group of people who are connected only by religion? The example I used in the seminar is this; Consider an arab-muslim family that has lived in Israel for generations and has helped build a city and a community. A family member of his from another country has less right to come and live with them in Israel than any other Jewish person in the world who has little or NO family or connection with Israel at all.

This is known as the Law of Return which states that any Jewish person (to be Jewish you must have one jewish grandparent) has the right to move to Israel to live, work and start a family. The arab in our situation does not have that same right even though he has far more reason to come and live in Israel, far more connection and far more family. Is this institutionalised racism? The argument is that Jews are being persecuted and need a haven to feel safe, but are Jews the only people being persecuted in the world? Is Israel not meant to be a light unto the nations, setting the example? Should Israel not open its arms to all those being persecuted rather than just the Jews?

In the declaration of Independence of Israel it states that all men should be treated equally. However, in Israel, Jewish communities receive much more money and help from the state than Arab muslim and christian communities. Where I live in Haifa, the Arab community lives in cramped conditions and are forced to build up rather than out because they have limited borders. Is this fair? Is this equality? Have we really solved anti-semitism? Have we gained peace? It doesn’t take a genius to look at the current Israel situation and see that peace is far from the truth.

Now comes the emotional argument. My family on my mother’s side all grew up and live in Israel. My grandparents escaped the Holocaust by coming to Israel and so it is likely that I would not be alive today had it not been for Israel. I am in Israel now on the most amazing gap-year which I wouldn’t give up for the world. So for those selfish reasons I want Israel to exist and no doubt there are millions around the world who have similar selfish reasons for wanting Israel to exist. However my emotional reasons do not correlate with my reasoned ones.

Does Israel solve anti-semitism or has it worsened it?
How can a Jewish State be justified if it is causing segregation and insitutionalised racism within its own borders, two traits which are not part of the Jewish religion I should add.
What right did the UN have to “give” the land of Palestine to the Jews and have they done more harm than good?
Is Israel staying true to its socialist and egalitarian aims by maintaining the Law of Return?

I am a Jew. I live in England and live a personally fulfilled Jewish life. I have muslim friends, christian friends, friends of all colours, races and creeds and it is only in forums like these that I even need to mention it. We practice our separate religions and we embrace our own cultures but we recognise that we are all human beings, first and foremost. We are assimilated yet we still maintain our own identity.

Your thoughts on this are welcomed with open eyes :slight_smile:

Canada, Sweden and the US exist. Nobody asks whether they should exist.

If Israel can exist, it should exist.

But it can’t exist. Not peacefully anyway. Nor can a bunch of other nations but for some reason that is besides the point.

I don’t understand though… Why can’t they call a truce and let each other live in the land?

i totally agree wif image there. i dont think it coulda been put better.

Some thoughts upon reading ben’s thoughts. some are not on point but they are political.

I agree with ben. the move to make a state filled with those persecuted sounds like a ploy to get everybody i dont like into one room so it only takes 1 bomb to kill them all. Plus I dont like religion being tied to the state period. it clouds the goverment. And untill everybody in israel is jewish what is the point in having it connected to the religion?

But Personally I view most of these republics and democracies as failing visions of the dead philosophers who are not around to reinforce and fix the problems they never had the time to fix.

Goverment is a catch 22 Power corrupts, goverment cant run with out power of the state. thus power of the state corupts goverment. In my view i see america as a rome like republic that learned nothing from the one it was compared to.

As for israel Im glad they got their own country, but there location was shitty, If i want to have a picnick i dont put the picnick blanket right beside the biggest bee and ant hive i can find. I put it on my own island which i can defend with out worry of being attacked by bee’s ant’s muslim’s or picnick haters in general

If you wish to get rid of racism, get rid of the terms of it, such as white, affrican american, or affrican for that matter. loose these regional and racial descriptors so a child has no ability to seperate himself from another race. Seperating the races doesnt work. seperating religions while is a great idea only gives the religions more time to grow against each other and cause friction. ill stop the rants here.

Exactly what I was thinking. Well without the bees and ants and whatever. But I can’t see how someone could do something like that. It sounds like such a dumb idea.

BluTGI

You write, “Government is a Catch 22 Power corrupts, government cant run with out the power of the state.”

That is a shrewd comment. Not to change the subject of this thread, but as a sop to Southern slaveholders, the Founding Fathers agreed to the proposition that “government is a necessary evil.” That Faustian bargain with the devil has plagued us ever since.

You continue, “(Israel’s) location was shitty…”

I agree. Biblical imperatives aside, it is hard to see why Jews would settle on the only strip of sand in the Middle East that has no oil under it.

In 1948, the UN was a sock puppet of the US. The cynic in me says that Israel was created to give the US an ally in the Middle East.

Naaaaah…

and to think, now they(nato) tells us(america) no. amazing. glad they grew some balls. Though if we hit sadam, and they sanction us(america) then all we have to do is call back loans and watch as the sanctions are droped to 0% but they are still there by words just to make it look like they have power.

but back to israel. I think australia would have been a better choice. or even madagascar.