ABSOLUTE SHOCK OF SHOCKS : PIM IS DEAD ! ! !

For discussions of culture, politics, economics, sociology, law, business and any other topic that falls under the social science remit.

Moderator: Uccisore

ABSOLUTE SHOCK OF SHOCKS : PIM IS DEAD ! ! !

Postby Pangloss » Mon May 06, 2002 9:08 pm

http://www.pimfortuyn.org http://www.lijst-pimfortuyn.nl


pim fortuyn has been assassinated. six shots to the chest, neck and head. i am still recovering from the shock, so apologies if i seem a bit wobbly.

are there any dutch people, or other people who follow european politics closely, who have views on this.

what will be the short-term effects of this, with the election only next week ? (his party were called the pim fortuyn list!)

importantly, what will be the long-term effects of this, in light of the new wave of right-wing feeling sweeping across europe ? will p.f.l. supporters in holland move their vote to further right parties?

will this increase support for right-wing parties across europe?

does this represent the start of a siginificant political polarisation in europe?


please avoid the temptation to slag him off. he was NOT a racist. he was NOT flatly anti-muslim. he WAS unconventional, bringing an entirely new style of politics into the country which arguably possessed the 'perfect european social model' - (will hutton)
User avatar
Pangloss
 
Posts: 425
Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2002 1:00 am
Location: London/Cambridge, U.K.

Postby HVD » Mon May 06, 2002 9:20 pm

2 possibilities.
1) Assasinated by a pro-immigrant, to stop him being elected.
2) Assasinated by an anti-immigrant, so that people will blame pro-immigrants, and will shift their vote.

Either way, immigrants are screwed.
HVD
Thinker
 
Posts: 580
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2002 1:00 am
Location: England

Re: ABSOLUTE SHOCK OF SHOCKS : PIM IS DEAD ! ! !

Postby macca » Mon May 06, 2002 10:24 pm

Pangloss wrote:i am still recovering from the shock, so apologies if i seem a bit wobbly.


are you being ironic? i hope so.
User avatar
macca
Comrade
 
Posts: 428
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2001 1:00 am
Location: middle of nowhere, the sticks

Postby macca » Mon May 06, 2002 11:34 pm

"Since this happened everybody in my taxi has been saying that they were not going to vote for his party but now they say that they will." <--- Reuters, and Taxi Driver Alex.

oh great, it's probably what Pim would have wanted anyway. now with his death before the election nobody can ever know how the population would have voted, and like JFK, conspiracy theories will spring up. personally i think his policies were very very flawed - if the immagrant workers are removed who will do the jobs that the locals don't want to do, e.g. roadsweeps, McDonalds workers, etc. but i do agree (aprtly) with the things i have herd that he said about Muslims. countrys that repress women are backward, and every Muslim country currently does - to a greater or lesser extent, but that is not to say that all Muslims take this stand point. i also liked what he said about the West shouldn't have to bow down to OPEC, afterall they do NOTHING to contribute to the world other than happen to be on oil rich land - does that give them the right to dictate how the world lives?
User avatar
macca
Comrade
 
Posts: 428
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2001 1:00 am
Location: middle of nowhere, the sticks

Postby kjeevah » Tue May 07, 2002 2:46 am

im quite sure that you could find repressed women in every country on the planet
User avatar
kjeevah
 
Posts: 118
Joined: Thu Apr 18, 2002 11:52 pm
Location: Torquay, Devon, UK

Postby ben » Tue May 07, 2002 6:39 pm

oh great, it's probably what Pim would have wanted anyway."


It's unlikely that Pim wanted to be shot dead so people would vote for his party. But maybe this is the start of a new craze of 'Suicide Politicians'?
User avatar
ben
Janitor
 
Posts: 1657
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2001 1:00 am
Location: UK

Postby jawaad » Tue May 07, 2002 7:28 pm

DISCLAIMER: this post is tangential and may be skipped by everyone but Macca.

macca wrote:"i do agree (aprtly) with the things i have herd that he said about Muslims. countrys that repress women are backward, and every Muslim country currently does - to a greater or lesser extent, but that is not to say that all Muslims take this stand point


Kjeevah is right. Your point is a fair one, Macca (and in fact I have written a post on the very same issue on the religion board), but I would avoid sweeping generalisations of this nature.

Gustave Le Bond stated in his book "The Arab Civilization": "...we can add that Islam is the first religion to honor and respect women. We can easily prove this by illustrating that all religions and nations, prior to the advent of Islam, caused much harm and insult to women. In contrast, Islam was radical in its provision for the rights of women." And he goes on. The rights the Koran gives to women were unprecedented at the time, and are comprehensive, covering marriage and sexuality, property etc - they anticipate the 20th century women's lib movement in the west by 1400 years.

But sadly, as you say, so many Islamic nations today have lapsed back into ramapant paternalism and deny women the rights Islam gives them. I am not criticising you Macca, I just want to highlight the fact that the problems women in many Islamic states face are not because of the religion, but because of the sort of people who are in power. Hence, any such criticism cannot justly be directed at the Islamic philosophy - it ought to be targeted at tyrants like Saddam Hussein who have wrested control of much of the Islamic world.

Have a gander at my post on the religion board if you can be arsed.
Last edited by jawaad on Tue May 07, 2002 7:54 pm, edited 3 times in total.
"You can bomb the world to pieces,
but you can't bomb it into peace."
MICHAEL FRANTI
User avatar
jawaad
 
Posts: 131
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 1:00 am
Location: London, UK

Postby Pangloss » Tue May 07, 2002 7:33 pm

Ben, you're right about the 'suicide politicians'. Iain Duncan Smith has hired me to do it next friday. I'll do anything for the cause.

Macca, your point about the immigrant workers is ill-informed. it was not his policy to 'remove immigrant workers'. that is the policy of j-m lepen. pim fortuyn's policy was to close the borders of the netherlands to non-eu immigrants, by legal means, renegotiating the schengen treaty. he was wholely against the idea of deportation, with his manifesto asking for a new 'ministry for assimilation' to be set up. he was not against poorer people from within the eu coming to holland to work, and he was not a racist. he was what can only be described as a 'hardline liberal', somebody who believes so passionately in tolerance and respect as a rule in society, that any intolerant element of society should not be grudgingly welcomed. the problem of crime (as in many places across europe) was spiralling out of control in the netherlands, especially in the port cities, and we should be grateful that the person to take political advantage of this fact was not from the far right.

he was contraversial, unpopular and popular because he brought with him an entirely new style of politics. how many politicians since churchill can you remember as having a distinct reputation as a 'thinking man', the ability to say what he thinks, rather than what he thinks people want him to say, and a fresh clarity to their views. this 'direct' 'honest' approach is usually clamped down by an extremist p.c. media in the uk, so it may be some time before pim's influence crosses the channels.

it's ok, in my opinion, to be a demagogue, if you've spent much of your life thinking out the ideas you're representing.
he was the sort of politician that could make people feel comfortable with the saying the truth, so that awkward issues could be discussed, instead of shied away form, only to become worse.

this sounds like an obituary, i know. but i was genuinely shocked and extremely dissapointed by what happened yesterday. it's the most bitter blow to the dutch people, to have a major politician assassinated. his style was a much-needed breath of fresh air, and i was hoping that the habit would rub off onto left wing parties, and all across the political spectrum, so that by the time we were his age, we would not feel as if we had to lie and drop our principles to gain political influence, as is so cringefully the case at the moment.

as some of you have already speculated, his death may see his party gain more votes in next week's elections. i just hope it doesn't give cause to the delicate stance of pim fortuyn to waver. any further right, and they're in dangerous territory. i also fear, though only time will tell, that if the killer was an immigrant, it will only cause the far-right uprising to increase in vigour. with nationalism comes a strong instinct for revenge (as can be seen in the middle-east conflict) and such an instinct will only spell disaster for the unity of the eu, at a time when it unity needed at its most, with the euro and enlargement.

i fear that the ultra-liberal veil of dutch society may be uncovered to reveal something quite ugly. i just hope the dutch are as great as i like to think they are, and that they don't react to pim fortuyn's assassination by reflex.
User avatar
Pangloss
 
Posts: 425
Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2002 1:00 am
Location: London/Cambridge, U.K.

Postby Flamin'RedJJ » Tue May 07, 2002 9:28 pm

The man was clearly a racist and a bigot and generally nasty.
What kind of twisted thinking says that 'liberalism' and 'toleration' are best protected by authoritarianism and xenophobic behaviour?

This was extreme Nationalism at its worst.

Liberalism may only grow stronger went put under pressure.

With regard to the notion that immigrants as a whole directly cause social problems and crime, which is frankly abhorent, it seems clear to most reasonable people that a lack of education and investment creates an underclass out of those who have few job skills, immigrants or otherwise.
Hence the situation in Burnley, where areas of 'white' and 'Asian' peoples clashed, a conflict that grew out of the same socio-economic frustrations on both sides.
User avatar
Flamin'RedJJ
 
Posts: 96
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2002 1:00 am
Location: Black Rock Falls, Wisconsin

Postby Pangloss » Tue May 07, 2002 10:08 pm

Flamin'Red Sam, you seem to have willingly adopted the media view of pim fortuyn. you're just trying to provide a suitable antithesis to what i've said. "This was extreme Nationalism at its worst."
that's just false. i won't patronise you with why.
i can't believe you have tried to deny that immigration doesn't cause problems for the recieving society. pim's argument was that the increase in crime and assimilation costs was only adding a further strain on dutch public finances, at a time when public spending has to be reduced significantly in teh next 3 years to meet the stab.+growth criteria for euro membership. why do you assume that if somebody speaks frankly about a sensitive issue, they are instantly an extremist.
i never personally favoured everything pim fortuyn said. you have to say some attention-grabbing things to get from 0 to 15% ratings in 3 months.
i just felt that his style of politics presented a much-needed change from the stiff and sometimes conceited concensus that had built up.
i suggest you read about him (both sides of the coin) and understand his policies, before you start criticising him.
User avatar
Pangloss
 
Posts: 425
Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2002 1:00 am
Location: London/Cambridge, U.K.

Postby Flamin'RedJJ » Thu May 09, 2002 10:27 pm

What about all his racist outbursts, then?

This will drive you nuts, Pangloss, but Hitler also had superficially 'good' ideas, aimed a conserving the positive aspects of German society, which he wrote down in two very comprehensive books, like a real academic.

That didn't stop him from starting WWII and implementing the Holocaust once he was in power for a few years.
On the plus side, he did encourage traditional Austrian dress!
User avatar
Flamin'RedJJ
 
Posts: 96
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2002 1:00 am
Location: Black Rock Falls, Wisconsin

Postby Pangloss » Fri May 10, 2002 4:14 pm

http://www.lijst-pimfortuyn.nl/sign.php

any man/woman of culture, or any true liberal, would be doing themselves a favour signing this. don't be intimidated by the language.

the dutch will probably understand your english better than many people youo know.
User avatar
Pangloss
 
Posts: 425
Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2002 1:00 am
Location: London/Cambridge, U.K.

Postby jawaad » Sat May 11, 2002 11:31 pm

Pangloss wrote:Any man/woman of culture, or any true liberal, would be doing themselves a favour signing this.


Pangloss, I understand why you support the left wing policy stance of Fortuyn and his party; he was undoubtedly a liberal in most respects. However, he was too quick to lapse into xenophobia.

You might reply by saying that all he did was speak the truth; immigrants are often damaging; most Dutch crime is committed by Turks etc etc. However, his intention to freeze Muslim immigration entirely (reported in "New Statesman"), represents the views of a man who sees a group of over 1 billion diverse individuals as a single entity. Is this liberalism?

I am a Muslim. If he had been able to implement his policy I would not have been able to move to Holland if I had so wished, and would you say that I am the sort of person who is likely to have been stalking the streets of Rotterdam terrorising the incumbent population by night, and preaching hardcore fundamentalism by day? Leo, am I the same person as a Palestinian suicide bomber just because my faith bears the same name as his? You know the answer. Yet Pim Fortuyn would not have let me into his country. Sure he was liberal on drugs and sexuality; but he was not liberal about people. Not all people. Even so, you parade him as some sort of martyr for the causes of liberalism and culture.

In your support for him you seem to be endorsing his crass denial of individuality...and you call yourself a Lib Dem! I am appalled that he was shot, I really am, and I hope the perpetrators are brought to justice...I am not supporting that at all. I just think that you have failed to realise how extreme his views on race were. Maybe you can clarify this for me.
"You can bomb the world to pieces,
but you can't bomb it into peace."
MICHAEL FRANTI
User avatar
jawaad
 
Posts: 131
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 1:00 am
Location: London, UK

Postby Pangloss » Sun May 12, 2002 1:20 am

one thing i do accept, is that pim fortuyn did attract many xenophobic people in holland, who had no-one (other than extremists) to represent their feelings.
which new statesman was the report you read in? he did have strong views against islamic fundamentalists, for reasons which you know, but in no way did he want to freeze out muslim immigration 'entirely', as you put it.
before the pimfortuyn website went all black, i read his all important policy on immigration. it said that the netherlands was overcrowded, that the rate of influx of non-eu immigrants could not be sustained at current tax levels, and that as a right-winger and individualist, the introduction of more immigrants would undermine dutch freedom. the policy was to end all non-eu immigration, with the eu schengen treaty being renegotiated so that eu expansion could still take place, whilst dutch net contribution to the eu budget was capped (as with the uk, in the 80s).
it may be worth reminding you, that there are two muslim candidates on the pim fortuyn list.
your writing about excluding all muslims from holland, including yourself was just wrong (as far as i am aware. i'd like to see this new statesman, as i'm sure they wouldn't publish a lie). excluding the likes of you for being, by name, a muslim, was not his intention. his comments were misrepresented by a media hungry for an outrageous statement (especially from a dutch politician - most of which were dull as).
i think you've taken the media's portrayal of him as a demon to an extreme. to say he 'was liberal on drugs and sexuality; but he was not liberal about people', i assume you're saying he wasn't so open-minded when it came to people who were causing misery in the netherlands (my dutch friends in rotterdam confirm this). however contentious his views on 'islamic culture' were (as the media likes to generalise), the root of every view and policy he came up with, was concerned with the preservation and augmentation of dutch liberty. 'hardline liberalism' as i said in an earlier post. post a new topic if you want to discuss such a concept; a tolerant society's attitude towards an intolerant element.

'In your support for him you seem to be endorsing his crass denial of individuality...' if you want my views on individuality, see the 'perfect world' post, and other related rantings concerning the idea of individual perfection, and moral-building.
the 'denial of individuality' you're referring to, is his denial of future fundamentalist muslims the right to live in holland. the pim fortuyn movement is meant to be all about individualism. do you think they've got their calculations fundamentally wrong somewhere along the line? 'xenophobia' is someone's fear of people from other cultures. pim fortuyn was a sociology proffesor, and i can assure you that he did not confuse muslims like you, and muslims like osama bl. (musilims like you, were standing under the p.f.l.). he feared the fundamentalist muslim element in the netherlands. in the same way israeli's fear palistinean suicide bombers, or i fear old men on the train. there are different degrees to xenophobia, and it is worth getting a sense of proportion, before you accuse pim fortuyn, or myself, of a 'crass denial of individuality'

i don't really want to be drawn into whether or not i agreed with every single thing pim fortuyn said. most politicians have many inhibitions. pim fortuyn did not. and i suppose that's what i liked about him. he didn't mind being himself, driving around in his daimler like a dandy with his dogs (would a british mp do that?). he was an individual in public, and i liked the idea that that was credible to the public, as a mainstream politician. i'm often frustrated by politicians trying to be all things to all people (remember tony blair last june going into a pub and 'loosin' 'is tays'). i was attracted to his celebrity, and his reputation as a thinker.

sorry if i repeat stuff, like an old person, but i'm v tired. don't pick up on ind. words. gssssssssss[/i]
User avatar
Pangloss
 
Posts: 425
Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2002 1:00 am
Location: London/Cambridge, U.K.

Postby jawaad » Sun May 12, 2002 2:10 am

Leo, the offending article is in this week's New Statesman (13th May), it is on page 15 in article by John Kampfner called "Cure for Boredom." I can show it to you on Monday if you want. This seems to be a disagreement over facts more than ideology. We are both liberals, the difference is that you think Pim was the ultimate liberal and I think he was a liberal except when it didn't suit him (and therefore a poseur).

If you are right and his quarrel was with fundamentalists (in which case he was 100% correct) and Islamic culture (I can understand why), then I will have to retract my last post. It is just that I read a letter by some stupid fascist in the Metro sticking up for Pim for all the wrong reasons, and then I came by this "New Statesman" article which says that he wanted to 'freeze Muslim immigration' and I got a bit annoyed. If he really did want to impose a blanket freeze on Muslim immigration, then what I said stands ('viewing a diverse group of over a billion as a single entity'). The Guardian also reported that he wanted "zero immigration of Muslims." He has also written a book called "Against the Islamisization of our Culture," the title of which smacks of paranoia, though I concede I have not read it.

In any case, I have taken on board everything you said. His honesty is certainly admirable, as is much that you mention about his political 'personality'. If you can convince me that the New Statesman and the Guardian (my tomes of wisdom) are wrong, then I will retract that last post and admit to myself that my worst nightmare has become reality... I have turned into the Daily Mail , a mass misinformation manual for morons (I've been inspired to become an alliterative rapper by the new Blackalicious album - you and your Daimler driving dogs should join me).

It's all about the facts, man. Peace.
"You can bomb the world to pieces,
but you can't bomb it into peace."
MICHAEL FRANTI
User avatar
jawaad
 
Posts: 131
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 1:00 am
Location: London, UK

Re: ABSOLUTE SHOCK OF SHOCKS : PIM IS DEAD ! ! !

Postby Jakob » Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:07 am

Pangloss wrote:http://www.pimfortuyn.org http://www.lijst-pimfortuyn.nl


pim fortuyn has been assassinated. six shots to the chest, neck and head. i am still recovering from the shock, so apologies if i seem a bit wobbly.

are there any dutch people, or other people who follow european politics closely, who have views on this.

what will be the short-term effects of this, with the election only next week ? (his party were called the pim fortuyn list!)

importantly, what will be the long-term effects of this, in light of the new wave of right-wing feeling sweeping across europe ? will p.f.l. supporters in holland move their vote to further right parties?

will this increase support for right-wing parties across europe?

does this represent the start of a siginificant political polarisation in europe?


please avoid the temptation to slag him off. he was NOT a racist. he was NOT flatly anti-muslim. he WAS unconventional, bringing an entirely new style of politics into the country which arguably possessed the 'perfect european social model' - (will hutton)

:shock:
oh no
Image
For behold, all acts of love and pleasure are my rituals
User avatar
Jakob
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 5713
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:23 pm
Location: look at my suit


Return to Society, Government, and Economics



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot]