Israel, continued

as everyone is blatantly aware Israel is stepping up it’s campaign against Palestinian “terrorists”. i use the word terrorists in the loosest sense of the word as i class the Palestinian groups in the same class as the IRA before and shortly after 1917.

is it right for the Israelie army to round up thousands of people, commit war crimes on them (hooding is counted as a form of torture, and is therefore a war crime) and then stand back and call the palestinians terrorists?

i say it straight out is wrong. yet i do not agree with the palestinian tactic of suicide bombing, just a personal taste, but that doesn’t mean it is not justified (eg, israelie helicopters and tanks constantly bombaring palestinian towns and cities is more than enough reason to strike back).

anybody who can make sense of this mess? offer a possible solution? or just opinion?

(i do realise i can’t spell Israel properly)

[This message has been edited by macca (edited 14 March 2002).]

Israel was set up by the UN in 1948 as a Jewish state: “A land without people for a people without land.” What they forgot was that Palestine was not actually a land without people. Throughout its short history, most notably in 1948 and 1967, the state of Israel has aggressively expanded its borders, and has been anything but a peaceful nation. There are currently at least 5m Palestinian refugees being denied the right to return, and as a consequence Gaza strip, one part of the ‘occupied territories’ allotted to the Palestinians, is the most densely populated section of land in the world. Israel is a powerful nuclear country, which was set up specifically to act as the agent of the US in the oil-rich Middle East, a job that is has performed dutifully. Incidentally, there were plenty of Jews living in Palestine before 1948. They were a minority but there was never any problem between Jews and Muslims until the Palestinians were forcibly removed from their homes (indeed many Palestinians are Christian). The Israeli state of course, armed to the teeth with US-supplied weapons, does not think to itself: “Hmm, well, we did steal this land - maybe we should just solve the problem by giving some of it back …” Rather, they pursue a genocidal course, continuing their settlements and reacting with Apache helicopter gunships to Palestinian children throwing stones.

There you have it - The Israeli Situation

Solution? well, thats another story altogether.

I shall begin this response with a quotation:

“When people criticise Zionism, they mean Jews…What is anti-Zionist? It is the denial of the Jewish people of a fundamental right that we justly claim for the people of Africa and freely accord all other nations of the globe.” – Reverend Martin Luther King (1968)

The main response to Israel over recent months by most of the rest of the world has been little more than anti-Zionism. Of course Ariel Sharon is a tougher, more right wing politician but who do you expect Israelis to vote in after the Palestinians reject the peace treaties offered to them by previous, much more liberal prime ministers. Israel is not entirely in the wrong and the previous two post display much misunderstanding of the topic.

The Jewish people need a homeland as the quotation above says. In the same way that the Palestinians deserve a homeland but Israel has already said, even including Sharon, that they support the formation of a Palestinian State as long as it does not endanger Israel. Oppression leads to the need of a homeland which is why Israel was founded after the Second World War. The Jewish people felt that they could only be safe if they had their own land. Many places were considered but the United Nations decided on Palestine, which was previously British. A common misconception is that the land belonged to the Palestinians and the Jews stole it. Palestinians were not kicked off the land in fact, indeed it was not theirs. The Palestinians either fled or were kicked off land AFTER the War of Independence. Here I would like to point out one of Freddie’s subtle little mistakes: “Throughout its short history, most notably in 1948 and 1967, the state of Israel has aggressively expanded its borders, and has been anything but a peaceful nation.” Nice one Freddie but I think you’ll find that one day after the formation of the State of Israel, it was invaded by Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia and Jordan. Israel ‘won’ this war and therefore expanded its land by about 50% and this lead to the creation of 780,000 Palestinian refugees. Those who were already on Israeli land before the war and who didn’t flee (although most were not forced to) now form the 20% of the Israeli population who are Arab. As for the 6 Day War well one could argue that Israel started it or that the Arabs did depending on who you believe. It’s very complex and involves issues of trade blocking etc. Does that count as provocation, who knows? Yes, Israel one this war and yes, land they won, inc. the Golan Heights, should be withdrawn from according to UN resolution 242. Freddie, nice to see you missed out the war of 1973, when Arab countries attacked Israel in a surprise attack on the most important day of the Jewish calendar, Yom Kippur.

Another lie from Freddie: “there was never any problem between Jews and Muslims until the Palestinians were forcibly removed from their homes.” By way of example, there was the Arab revolt of 1936-1939 led by Haj Amin Al-Husseini in which hundreds of Arabs and Jews were killed. Again not true is that Israel “was set up specifically to act as the agent of the US in the oil-rich Middle East.” I have explained why Israel was founded. It was a result of the Holocaust and other oppression of Jews in Europe. (This is not emotional black-mail, it is fact).

Of course there are bad people on both sides, racists, in fact, but to play the blame-game is pointless. Who can say who is more responsible for the current state of affairs. But why should Israel be criticised for having superior force or for receiving help from America. Of course the Israeli settlers who build new towns on Arab land are just being deliberately provocative and yet on the other side of the coin, Palestinian extremists do want the state of Israel destroyed. Israeli Arabs should be treated better as the infrastructure in their towns is poor. But suicide bombs are not the answer. Also not that many refugees will return for several reasons: a) In 100 year

one mans terrorist is another freedom fighter. you cannot call one side terrorists and the other an army just becuase they have helicopters, government funding etc. the palestinians are fighting for their own state, therefore they are freedom fighters.

anecdote time... my great grandfather, a gran-uncle and several other family memebers were members of the 1917 (ish) IRA. the IRA were called terrorists by the british government, yet they fought for their own state, largely remained within the rules of war when the british forces were wildely over them and ultimately won their freedom. don't lecture me about terrorists, i have met many of your terrorists and most of what they speak of and for is basic human rights. i see very little difference between the IRA then and the palestinian groups now. the palestinians should have their own state in the same way that the republic of ireland should exist.

I don’t want to get bogged down in history because then we all just end up repeating oursleves…lets be honest, what frustrates me greatly right now is not who the land belongs to, its not even who caused all the problems…its just the fact THAT INNOCENT PEOPLE ARE DYING EVERY DAY !! True, that for every one Israeli killed, 3 Palestinians dies. But none the less its PPL we’re talking about. Its as simple as that…its simply carnage out there !! Lets forget about the politics of everything just for the moment, and lets concentrate on what really matters…the people.
The situation :
One sides use violence…
…the other side responds…
…the side that started it all sees that as a provocation and responds…
…the side which initially responded to the violence in turn sees that as a provocation and again in turn responds…
…ETC…
…ETC…
…and in the process INNOCENT PEOPLE ARE DYING…!! What can we do…I think we need to send in some sort of UN peace keeping/observation team…they can impartially view and judge what the blazes is going on down on the ground…forget about all the crap that comes out of the media. We should then go from there. This isn’t perfect but its a start…now this post is incredibly subdued…I still feel strongly about whats going on there…but I now feel that WE HAVE TO PUT THE POLITICS BEHIND US, just till the fighting stops. The PEACE PROCESS MUST GO ON…regardless.

i agree with the killing must stop, but the palestinians cannot negotiate with sharon and the israelies cannot negotiate with arafat

[This message has been edited by macca (edited 16 March 2002).]

"When people criticise Zionism, they mean Jews…What is anti-Zionist? It is the denial of the Jewish people of a fundamental right that we justly claim for the people of Africa and freely accord all other nations of the globe."An interesting quote, but basically wrong. Searchlight Educational Trust, an anti-racist/facist group, quotes on their site: “While anti-Zionism is not itself antisemitic, for example one can be opposed to the policies or actions of the Israeli government, it often causes or is used as a cloak for antisemitism.” Now, I won’t deny that anti-Zionism may be an acceptable form of anti-semitism for some, but I have yet to meet anyone who fits this mould.

Personally, I would say I was anti-Zionist, simply because I don’t believe in the legitimacy of the current state of Israel. An underlying current of Zionism is the idea of a birth-right to Israel, which I simply can’t comprehend. Groups, including the UN have described Zionism as racist. If you wish to call me anti-semitic for that, it is on the basis that I do not support the idea of any secular state, regardless of religion.

If you want my solution, and I recognise it is neither workable, nor palatable to many, is to hand over the entire state to UN control. This has to be better than what is currently going on.

Random link, but searching online for quotes for this discussion I found this: http://www.masada2000.org/ .

Faz, that's not going to happen. The key idea behind UN peacekeeping is that there is already some degree of peace; they are not peace makers. Politics is the only way in which peace can be made. To do this will require mass discussion and agreement on every minor point.

WHAT THE HELL IS ISRAEL PLAYING AT ?!

they are acting like a little america, and the americans won’t stop them as the american president will fall (at the next election) if israel falls. eventually something will give and the israelies will finish their oporations or some serious fighthing will kick off.

right… israel are claiming that their attacks are ‘a war on terroism’ in this was they world may see it as similar to what america are doing… and hence do little to stop it!
the usa need israel as an allie, they have supported the usa throughout the whole war and are neeed by america, especially with the new target of iraq. Thus, although, the US speak against the fighting in israel, and even suggested that the troops pull out of Bethlehem, the Americans will not actually get involved until the war on terror is over!
Its sad but true that politics comes before peoples lives… but that is the way it goes at present… the US has a use for israel so tries to keep them onside… until that use is finished…the innocent people will still be dying…

to finish… a poser… can this war be stopped without the US? Does the whole world rely on their influence???

Yes, it can’t be stopped without the USA. They are on the UN security council and have a veto, hence absolute control over anything the UN could do. The only other ends to this war are either side “winning”, or some mutally assured destruction scenerio, as it seems to be going right now.

the only way the war will end is with the intervention of a foreign power or the isralies crushing the palestinians. with sharon in power there will no negotiating without foreign intervention of palestinians sacrificing to extremely unreasonable demands. sharon is the main obstacle to peace as he doesn’t want it. if he was really interested in peace he wouldn’t be attacking palestinian police men or barring foreign reporters from palestinian cities.

In charges Nicky with her ignoramus opinions

I have been quietly observing this topic (and the frequently appalling spellings of “Israel”) for a few weeks now, and my complete lack of knowledge about anything to do with it has, until now, stopped me from posting anything.

But alas the time has come when I cast knowledge aside and drag out a little of my personal brand of completely uninformed, oversimplified political viewpoint. I ask though, in all seriousness …

Why don’t we just leave them to it? They can battle away over there points vaguely east and if they start bothering us, we’ll show them what we’re made of. I mean for crying out loud … it’s like Northern Ireland … GET OVER IT … and then every now and then they come and put a bomb in London! I can’t believe it! I heard the one in Ealing go off, as well, all the way from Kingston.

I’m sure there are valid reasons why the Israeli/Palestinian conflict needs to be fixed up, and I’m sorry for presenting my question in such a doofy way. But can someone pleeease explain to me in layman’s terms why the non-altruistic of us even CARE … thanks

Nicola, from a purely political point of view:

  1. The US/Britain want to attack Iraq, they need the Arab countries, if Israel continue these contries will not lend their support. We have to get involved.
  2. Economic: Something like 80% (I think!) of the world oil comes from the Middle East, following the example of Iraq, if the Arab leaders had the guts they could impose sanctions.
  3. Humanitarian: Innocent people are being killed, its as simple as that.

    Daniel, why the US are refusing to do anything about Israel, easy, Bush is watching his electoral ballot, if he condemns Israel too harshly, he is finished at the next election. The US need the arab countries more than Israel when it comes to the forthcoming attack on Iraq.

Cheers, MusRep. I know our past has been nothing less than rocky but that was quite helpful

Mus Rep: i think you are over estimating the power of the arab countries. if the US decides to attack iraq it will. if it is let to settle and Al-Qeda pull of another major terrorist stunt, say setting off a ‘dirty’ bomb or blowing up a nuclear power station, the western population will have had enough and ALL the arab leaders will be removed by western force and reinstated will be leaders who the west can deal with. similar situations have arisen before, eg. british empire dealings in the far east. if OPEC implemnts extremly tight oil restrictions US forces will cease the oil wells (lets not forget who finds the oil, who drills the oil, and who distributes the oil). the US has supreme power for better or for worse and if they want to do something the damned well will.

NB i don’t agree with the above statement in that none of it will probably happen/should happen, but having read a strategists’ cloumn in a defence magazine it’s what the western military planners are palnning for.

Let me post an article from the Ayn Rand Institute Website which perhaps explains why America is supporting Israel (although recently, with requests for withdrawal, we can see that the US is actually wanting peace rather than just backing Israel every step of the way.)

“Israel and those who attack it are not moral equals. Israel is a free, Westernized country, which recognizes the individual rights of its citizens (such as their right to liberty and freedom of speech). It uses military force only in self-defense, in order to protect itself.

Those attacking Israel, by contrast, are terrorist organizations, theocracies, dictatorships and would-be dictators. They do not recognize the individual rights of their own subjects, much less those of the citizens of Israel. They initiate force indiscriminately in order to retain and expand their power. In contrast to the state of Israel, such organizations and regimes have no moral right to exist.

Fundamentally, Israel is the target of these organizations and regimes precisely because of its virtues: it is an oasis of freedom and prosperity in a desert of tyranny and stagnation. If Israel is destroyed, the enemies of freedom attacking it will be able to turn their full attention to the United States. The United States must not let this happen.

In America’s war against terrorism, it is imperative that America distinguish friend from foe, good from evil, the opponents of terrorism from the perpetrators. In the name of justice and self-preservation, therefore, America should uncompromisingly encourage and support Israel in the common fight against the enemies of freedom.”

Also let me say this, the media is constantly reporting on Israel’s military manoevures and always pointing out how many innocent people are being killed, but in actual fact, what they are doing is no different to what the UK and US are doing in Afghanistan. If Israel wanted to they could fire up their Tomcat’s and F16’s and blow the Palestinian bases to smitherines, but because Israel and it’s army are not war-mongerers or religious fanatics, they send in individiual soldiers and low-weight artillery to ensure that the minimum amount of innnocent people are hurt. As a result, they lost 13 soldiers yesterday when they could have just used a fighter plane and lost none.

Just something to think about

i think you’ll find that whenever possible the isralies deploy tanks, artillery and air cover, it’s the standard military doctrine to use the maximum availiable force, as the stronger you are the less likely you are to take casualties.

why shouldn’t those soldier have been killed, they would not have hesitated to kill palestinian ‘gun-men’ so why should the palestinian’s just line up and let themselves be shot?

another thing about force, you see those M-16’s or Ar-15’s the isralies carry, well the rounds they fire will have absolutly no trouble going through 2 maybe 3 houses (not walls) when firing in close proximity. don’t confuse you’re self thinking armies aim to do anything other than kill people when they open fire.

also, isralies not using F-16’s? how are most of their assassinations of ‘terrorist’ leaders carried out? with either apaches or F-16’s.

lastly, democracies aren’t always justified, in ‘holding’ the palestinian men the isralies are committing a war crime, e.g. being hooded (as most of the men were) is a form of torture under the geneva convention, which israel has signed.

They don’t go about attacking “bases” with F16 because there aren’t any. These are the homes of people. Imagine if we had used helicopter gunships in northern ireland… even in “targeted” assassinations. I’m not denying there were shoot to kill policies, but that was never supported officially.

Some of the people attacking Israel are religious fundamentalists. But there are also non-secular freedom fighters, angry at the way arabs are treated by Israel, even in the “good times”.

Under any definition of “war-mongerers” Sharon is there, involved in the massacre of palestinians while a general in the israel army.

The main difference between what is going on here and in afganistan is that we were at war with the taliban, the government in power of a country, with it’s own army. This is a civil-war, in which the existing government is using excessive force to quell an uprising. Any army that fires on the red cross has no respect in my books.