Pardon me for saying England, I’ll say Britain from now on.
But if you say there is such a large British influence in the Middle East, then why don’t they use that influence? Getting mad about the US doing all this diplomatic work world-wide won’t get much sympathy if another country could do the same job.
Not going to happen. There isn’t enough interest among the public, what interest there is is too highly polarized to have any electoral gain. And most importantly there is no economic imperative for the UK, other than the general propping up of Israel as a base in the area against OPEC and the oil owners, which the US can do well enough by itself.
Even if we wanted to, we don’t have the resources or willpower to get involved in such a deep-rooted conflict.
Of course we do make some money by flogging guns/tanks etc to the Israelis. And probably the Palestinians too.
Boy, it must be fun to be British. You guys create the situation and let America clean up when it blows up. Why? Because, ah, we don’t feel like it and we won’t make any money anyway. 
I may have thought it, but I’m glad you said it and not me.
i take it your being ironic, or do you want me to list the terrorists, anti-democracy forces, war-ciminals, drug barons, despots, military coups, etc that america has funded. a prime example being the CIA forming a cellular anti-soviet group in afghanistan in the 80’s which 21 years later kills 2,500 americans.
I like those facts you list, but I’d like to mention the many nations that have been released from British colonial rule to become segregated lands of oppression, ie South Africa, Zimbabwe…Palestine.
Yes, America has funded such groups. But the large majority of those operations took place during the Cold War, when our goal-along with the rest of the Western World’s capitalistic democracies ie the UK-was to contain the expansion of communism in the world. I’m sure if Britain has funded underground groups that were involved in the fight against communism, as well as the US. That’s exactly what the US did in Afghanistan, and unfortuantely we failed to keep our promise to them after the fight was over. We payed the worst price possible, and it’s horrible, yes.
But look at the centuries old strife in Northern Ireland, that erupts everyday into more deaths of innocent people. All countries and people have made choices, and every single one stays around a while to bite that country’s ass; some longer than others. Every country has skeletons, you can’t escape it.
this will be one of the few times i defend the british empire, but in every country that it left peacefully it established a democratic government, civil service, police, army, etc etc. it left the country intact and fully operational, it was after the british empire left that disorder, despotism and segregation set in. countries that the british empire was forced out of, or forced to ceed were a much less clear affair.
and if we are talking imperialism, can you explain US imperialistic actions such as Grenada, Iceland, Greenland, Phillipines, Japan, etc etc.?
justifiying funding terrorist organisations, murder and over throwing democracies by saying it was witht he aim of destroying communism is utter rubbish. in the 40’s to 90’s there was a deep seated, ill-logical fear of socialism and communism in america. that has led to the racism, vast wealth gaps, poverty, violence, crime and disturbances that are common in the US today.
as for Northern Ireland, that issue is older than your country.
and promises to the Afghan people? in the Soviet invasion the US made only one promise, to arm them for the petty reason that Soviet SAM’s had been supplied to Viet Cong forces in Vietnam which helped to humiliate the US forces. there was no promise to aid their country, the US meerly armed them and trained them. no thought was given to the consequences.
I had no intention of engaging in a list pissing contest, my point wasn’t to say America was better than Britain, but to criticize the belief that Britons are somehow free from responsibility because America is around.
But this was too good to pass up. 
But what does this have to do with countries that weren’t there beforehand – Israel/Palestine?
Grenada – okay.
Philippines – you betcha.
Iceland and Greenland? – Imperialist actions? I just gotta here the stories on these.
Japan – The American occupation of Japan lasted five years. Britain’s occupation of Ireland lasted three hundred (indeed longer than America’s entire existence.)
You have got to be kidding. The peculiar forms of racism, poverty, inequality, violence, and crime have been around as long as America has been around – that is if they are indeed peculiar. America’s first Red Scare happened immediately after WWI allowing, among other things, the emasculation of the Wobblies. I agree that the Red Scare of the Fifties was indeed horrible but it definitely didn’t ‘lead’ to any of these things.
It’s important to remember also that the history of labor in America was the most violent in the world; America isn’t anymore monolithic than I suspect Britain is. 
Iceland - invaded by US forces to build airbases.
Greenland the same, but the US government has never acknowledged the right to the land of the Inuit people, actually beating up Inuit protestors at a base and threatening them with guns.
there is no need to educate me on the issues surrounding Ireland, due to having an Irish family/passport i hear about it too much.
Macca, about Iceland, if you’re referring to 1941, then you should also know that British forces were there BEFORE American forces “invaded” the island. Yes, they landed in Reykjavic to build airbases on the island…but in order to help Britain and Europe in the fight against Hitler and Germany.
Oh yes, and the “invasion” of Greenland. Once again, during WWII, after Denmark was invaded by Germany, several European nations, along with the United States, wanted to protect Greenland, particularly for the cryolite mine in Ivigtut. This mine was important to the American aircraft industry, and if Germany captured the mine, all the planes that were being built in for the defense of Europe and the Pacific would not have been able to have been built. So, in agreement with Canada, the US took the job of defending Greenland. And, I don’t know how the Inuit could have been beaten by soldiers, because in accordance with Danish laws regarding Greenland, American soldiers weren’t allowed in the Inuit settlements. And, the Inuit shouldn’t have been mad at the Americans, they should have been mad at the Danish about land rights…since Denmark considered Greenland a colony.
the trouble with the “defence” of Greenland is that the US forces are still there. they are still disturbing the Inuit people with both sound, visual and physical pollution which is destroying their way of life. as for protecting Greenland, Germany never had any intention of invading Greenland. and the US government has never even acknowledge they exist! other than to beat them up (i think that incident was in 2000).
Iceland was invaded by US forces, they arrived uninvited, did not even requestion permission, but built airbases and used the docks.
and lets not even pretend that US’s contribution to the European war won it. the USSR was fighting 80% of the resources of Germany and truely fighting a total war, the West forgets this very easily.
Macca, I really do think you have to concede that British imperialism is the root cause of a lot of present day conflict. For an example beyond the oft-quoted Israel-Palestine situation, what about the India/Pakistan situation? Pakistan’s partition from India was effectively the product of a British plot to exploit Hindu-Muslim bad feeling to draw attention away from the fact that the British Raj were the true oppressors of the Indian people. And that tension still exists today; a legacy of cynical British imperialism.
As for the US - unlike Macca, I don’t have a problem with the domestic situation in America (he mentioned things like racism and crime) - that is a matter for US citizens and the US government. However, I do think trends in American foreign policy have become quite worrying. Under Bush, the US is slowly alienating itself from the international community; specifically from the UN, and from the developed countries which signed the Kyoto agreement. When Bush disagrees with the rest of the world he takes matters into his own hands (Iraqi sanctions - condemned by UN; flouting Kyoto; undermining Palestinian democracy), and quite simply, he has the power to do so. However, issues like terrorism and environment need to be dealt with by the international community as a whole, and Bush’s refusal to cooperate when the situation is not quite as he likes it is a precedent which could prove damaging in the future. With the threat of a global economic downturn and fears about international security looming large, this is a time when nations must work together more closely than ever before - and the US does not, from an international perspective, seem prepared to muck in and do its bit.
Add to this issues like the obvious partiality of the US approach to the Israel-Palestine situation, the fruitless reflex bombing of Afghanistan (which wiped out several villages - was that reported in the American press?) and it is clear why people round the world are not convinced that the “USA rules!” I should stress that the issue is not with Americans or with America - it is more to do with the insular ‘USA is everything’ governmental frame of mind which often seems to dictate US foreign policy.
Am I being unfair? Was there a valid, environmentally friendly reason for pulling out of Kyoto? As for the Britain vs. US comparison - it ends in a boring stalemate. The US is more powerful, but has sometimes misused that power; Britain has abused past power but nowadays prefers to operate as per Dubbya’s requirements. That reminds me of a line from a song: “Who is more a fool? Who is more a fool? The fool or the fool who follows the fool?”
you have mis-understood me i am not defending British Imperialism, i am attacking American imperialism. and why shouldn’t i be concerned about the exploitation of workers in america, or the vast wealth gap etc etc?
You know, it’s okay to get drunk sometimes. But you were defending British imperialism and, quite frankly, you don’t understand American imperialism, why not stop this silly game and start talking as members of two countries who might actually agree on a lot of stuff if you’d let nationalism just kind of go. Amazing.
i don’t understand american imperialism? so it’s more simple than - kill those people, we make money, lets do it! seeing as you have such a mstery of US Foreign Policy i think you’d be an excellent candidate to prove it by submitting an Article to the relevant section of the site.
if i was being truely nationalistic i’d be harping on about the injustices of Northern Ireland.
Macca, I can also see you have a fantastic idea about the Foreign Policy of America. And Domestic policy at that. Where in America are there oppressed workers I ask? I don’t see that many.
And you brought up the universal problem of racism in America. I didn’t mention it in earlier posts, but heck, why not now. Why harp about America having racism when in Europe, several countries now are led by anti-semitists? Or that in France the immigrants from Africa are treated as lower class citizens? Or in Britain where racial tensions are ever-present? Take a look around and notice that racism is everywhere, not just in America. Yes, we have racial problems, I admit it, but we are trying to work them out, same as everywhere else that has them.
And how was British imperialism no different than your description of American imperialism? Didn’t the British go to Africa, India, China, Malaysia, kill people to gain power, than work those people in order to TURN A PROFIT? Don’t insult when you have the exact same motives.
I don’t have to write an article, I just have to quote you. 
But before I do that let me try once again to point out what I think has happened here. Redjames posted this remark:
Interestingly enough you posted an even earlier comment that backs up my statement:
and my statement was:
But at that comment or perhaps that Nevir agreed, you took offense. You took on the responsibility to defend the British Empire:
But why in the world would my comment demand a defense of the British Empire? True, you didn’t exactly defend it or rather your defense was to attack American Imperialism – uh, you guys did it too, see, so that makes what we did okay kind of argument.
But my first comment wasn’t critical of the British Empire, it was critical of a certain type of British apathy and complacency current today.
So the question that interests me here is why?
I see several possibilities:
I hit too close to the bullseye, too close to what you really see and you don’t like it.
You can’t stand the idea that Americans, Americans of all people, should be critical of Britain (and apparently Ireland as well). A ‘Who do they think they are?’ kind of argument.
A combination of both.
I don’t see how else to make sense of this.
Brad
PS Oh yeah, Never, there are indeed oppressed workers in the United States – a lot in fact.
Maybe it has gone a little too far…ok, really too far… 
you seem to have not even read my posts, quote me when i have siad there is no racism in Europe, or when the British Empire was anything other than Lassiez-fair capitalism? either present a quote from one of my posts or stop trying to put words into my mouth.
and Brad i need no more than to quote you, “I had no intention of engaging in a list pissing contest” - hmmmm what are you doing then?
i freely admit that there is racism in Europe, i also never said there wasn’t. as for anti-Seminists in power, name them (more than one you need several). while i would agree there are right wing leaders about who have dubious race views it would be rash to brand several european leaders as anti-semitists.
more to come later as i have to go offline.
Ya know Macca, I was trying to be polite and try and end the fued…but if you insist.
I wasn’t quoting you as saying there was racism in Europe. But I find it extremely hypocritical to say that America is horrible for it’s problems with racism when, as you admit, there is racism in all of Europe. Oh, the new head party of the Netherlands, the head aprty of Austria, the near election of Le Pen in France; just a few with anti-semitist backgrounds.
And I never put words in your mouth. I just took the examples you gave in your posts, looked them up for myself, and reported what I found. I just really dislike hypocrites (not calling you one), but some of your views and examples had a side of the applied directly to foreign policy of some sort of the old British Empire. I state what I see and read. Sorry, guess I’m just different like that.
Note from moderator (macca):- i’ve had enough of this arse, this is a debating site not a “list pissing” site, i’m not replying to this thread.