My best guesses on a couple potential sock puppets...

Half-formed posts, inchoate philosophies, and the germs of deep thought.

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Re: My best guesses on a couple potential sock puppets...

Postby barbarianhorde » Sat Apr 27, 2019 9:49 pm

"The Einstein-Freud Correspondence (1931-1932)

The letter which Einstein addressed to Freud, concerning the projected organization of intellectual leaders, was sent in 1931, or possibly 1932, and read as follows:

I greatly admire your passion to ascertain the truth--a passion that has come to dominate all else in your thinking. You have shown with irresistible lucidity how inseparably the aggressive and destructive instincts are bound up in the human psyche with those of love and the lust for life. At the same time, your convincing arguments make manifest your deep devotion to the great goal of the internal and external liberation of man from the evils of war. This was the profound hope of all those who have been revered as moral and spiritual leaders beyond the limits of their own time and country, from Jesus to Goethe and Kant. Is it not significant that such men have been universally recognized as leaders, even though their desire to affect the course of human affairs was quite ineffective?

I am convinced that almost all great men who, because of their accomplishments, are recognized as leaders even of small groups share the same ideals. But they have little influence on the course of political events. It would almost appear that the very domain of human activity most crucial to the fate of nations is inescapably in the hands of wholly irresponsible political rulers.
Political leaders or governments owe their power either to the use of force or to their election by the masses. They cannot be regarded as representative of the superior moral or intellectual elements in a nation. In our time, the intellectual elite does not exercise any direct influence on the history of the world; the very fact of its division into many factions makes it impossible for its members to co-operate in the solution of today's problems. Do you not share the feeling that a change could be brought about by a free association of men whose previous work and achievements offer a guarantee of their ability and integrity? Such a group of international scope, whose members would have to keep contact with each other through constant interchange of opinions, might gain a significant and wholesome moral influence on the solution of political problems if its own attitudes, backed by the signatures of its concurring members, were made public through the press. Such an association would, of course, suffer from all the defects that have so often led to degeneration in learned societies; the danger that such a degeneration may develop is, unfortunately, ever present in view of the imperfections of human nature. However, and despite those dangers, should we not make at least an attempt to form such an association in spite of all dangers? It seems to me nothing less than an imperative duty!
Once such an association of intellectuals--men of real stature--has come into being, it might then make an energetic effort to en-list religious groups in the fight against war. The association would give moral power for action to many personalities whose good intentions are today paralyzed by an attitude of painful resignation. I also believe that such an association of men, who are highly respected for their personal accomplishments,

would provide important moral support to those elements in the League of Nations who actively support the great objective for which that institution was created.

I offer these suggestions to you, rather than to anyone else in the world, because your sense of reality is less clouded by wishful thinking than is the case with other people and since you combine the qualities of critical judgment, earnestness and responsibility.
The high point in the relationship between Einstein and Freud came in the summer of 1932 when, under the auspices of the International Institute of Intellectual Co-operation, Einstein initiated a public debate with Freud about the causes and cure of wars. Einstein's official letter is dated July 30, 1932; it was accompanied by the following private note of the same date:
I should like to use this opportunity to send you warm personal regards and to thank you for many a pleasant hour which I had in reading your works. It is always amusing for me to observe that even those who do not believe in your theories find it so difficult to resist your ideas that they use your terminology in their thoughts and speech when they are off guard.

This is Einstein's open letter to Freud, which, strangely enough, has never become widely known:
Dear Mr. Freud:

The proposal of the League of Nations and its International Institute of Intellectual Co- operation at Paris that I should invite a person, to be chosen by myself, to a frank exchange of views on any problem that I might select affords me a very welcome opportunity of conferring with you upon a question which, as things now are, seems the most insistent of all the problems civilization has to face. This is the problem: Is there any way of delivering mankind from the menace of war? It is common knowledge that, with the advance of modern science, this issue has come to mean a matter of life and death for Civilization as we know it; nevertheless, for all the zeal displayed, every attempt at its solution has ended in a lamentable breakdown.
I believe, moreover, that those whose duty it is to tackle the problem professionally and practically are growing only too aware of their impotence to deal with it, and have now a very lively desire to learn the views of men who, absorbed in the pursuit of science, can see world problems in the perspective distance lends. As for me, the normal objective of my thought affords no insight into the dark places of human will and feeling. Thus, in the inquiry now proposed, I can do little more than to seek to clarify the question at issue and, clearing the ground of the more obvious solutions, enable you to bring the light of your far-reaching knowledge of man's instinctive life to bear upon the problem. There are certain psychological obstacles whose existence a layman in the mental sciences may dimly surmise, but whose interrelations and vagaries he is incompetent to fathom; you, I am convinced, will be able to suggest educative methods, lying more or less outside the scope of politics, which will eliminate these obstacles.
As one immune from nationalist bias, I personally see a simple way of dealing with the superficial (i.e., administrative) aspect of the problem: the setting up, by international consent, of a legislative and judicial body to settle every conflict arising between nations. Each nation would undertake to abide by the orders issued by this legislative body, to invoke its decision in every dispute, to accept its judgments unreservedly and to carry out every measure the tribunal deems necessary for the execution of its decrees. But here, at the outset, I come up against a difficulty; a tribunal is a human institution which, in proportion as the power at its disposal is inadequate to enforce its verdicts, is all the more prone to suffer these to be deflected by extrajudicial pressure. This is a fact with which we have to reckon; law and might inevitably go hand in hand, and juridical decisions approach more nearly the ideal justice demanded by the community (in whose name and interests these verdicts are pronounced) insofar as the community has effective power to compel respect of its juridical ideal. But at present we are far from possessing any supranational organization competent to render verdicts of incontestable authority and enforce absolute submission to the execution of its verdicts. Thus I am led to my first axiom: The quest of international security involves the unconditional surrender by every nation, in a certain measure, of its liberty of action--its sovereignty that is to say--and it is clear beyond all doubt that no other road can lead to such security.
The ill success, despite their obvious sincerity, of all the efforts made during the last decade to reach this goal leaves us no room to doubt that strong psychological factors are at work which paralyze these efforts. Some of these factors are not far to seek. The craving for power which characterizes the governing class in every nation is hostile to any limitation of the national sovereignty. This political power hunger is often supported by the activities of another group, whose aspirations are on purely mercenary, economic lines. I have especially in mind that small but determined group, active in every nation, composed of individuals who, indifferent to social considerations and restraints, regard warfare, the manufacture and sale of arms, simply as an occasion to advance their personal interests and enlarge their personal authority.

But recognition of this obvious fact is merely the first step toward an appreciation of the actual state of affairs. Another question follows hard upon it: How is it possible for this small clique to bend the will of the majority, who stand to lose and suffer by a state of war, to the service of their ambitions.1 An obvious answer to this question would seem to be that the minority, the ruling class at present, has the schools and press, usually the Church as well, under its thumb. This enables it to organize and sway the emotions of the masses, and makes its tool of them.

Yet even this answer does not provide a complete solution. Another question arises from it: How is it that these devices succeed so well in rousing men to such wild enthusiasm, even to sacrifice their lives? Only one answer is possible. Because man has within him a lust for hatred and destruction. In normal times this passion exists in a latent state, it emerges only in unusual circumstances; but it is a comparatively easy task to call it into play and raise it to the power of a collective psychosis. Here lies, perhaps, the crux of all
1 In speaking of the majority I do not exclude soldiers of every rank who have chosen war as their profession, in the belief that they are serving to defend the highest interests of their race, and that attack is often the best method of defense.

the complex factors we are considering, an enigma that only the expert in the lore of human instincts can resolve.
And so we come to our last question. Is it possible to control man's mental evolution so as to make him proof against the psychosis of hate and destructiveness? Here I am thinking by no means only of the so-called uncultured masses. Experience proves that it is rather the so-called "intelligentsia" that is most apt to yield to these disastrous collective suggestions, since the intellectual has no direct contact with life in the raw but encounters it in its easiest, synthetic form--upon the printed page.

To conclude: I have so far been speaking only of wars between nations; what are known as international conflicts. But I am well aware that the aggressive instinct operates under other forms and in other circumstances. (I am thinking of civil wars, for instance, due in earlier days to religious zeal, but nowadays to social factors; or, again, the persecution of racial minorities.) But my insistence on what is the most typical, most cruel and extravagant form of conflict between man and man was deliberate, for here we have the best occasion of discovering ways and means to render all armed conflicts impossible.

I know that in your writings we may find answers, explicit or implied, to all the issues of this urgent and absorbing problem. But it would be of the greatest service to us all were you to present the problem of world peace in the light of your most recent discoveries, for such a presentation well might blaze the trail for new and fruitful modes of action.

Yours very sincerely,





Leon Steinig, a League of Nations official who did much to inspire this correspondence, wrote Einstein on September 12, 1932:


. . . When I visited Professor Freud in Vienna, he asked me to thank you for your kind words and to tell you that he would do his best to explore the thorny problem of preventing war. He will have his answer ready by early October and he rather thinks that what he has to say will not be very encouraging. "All my life I have had to tell people truths that were difficult to swallow. Now that I am old, I certainly do not want to fool them." He was even doubtful whether Bonnet2 would want to publish his pessimistic reply. . . .
Einstein replied to Steinig four days later saying that even if Freud's reply would be neither cheerful nor optimistic, it would certainly be interesting and psychologically effective.
2 Henri Bonnet, Director of the Institute of Intellectual Co-operation in Paris.

Freud's reply, dated Vienna, September 1932, has also never been given the attention it deserved:

Dear Mr. Einstein:
When I learned of your intention to invite me to a mutual exchange of views upon a subject which not only interested you personally but seemed deserving, too, of public interest, I cordially assented. I expected you to choose a problem lying on the borderland of the knowable, as it stands today, a theme which each of us, physicist and psychologist, might approach from his own angle, to meet at last on common ground, though setting out from different premises. Thus the question which you put me--what is to be done to rid mankind of the war menace?--took me by surprise. And, next, I was dumbfounded by the thought of my (of our, I almost wrote) incompetence; for this struck me as being a matter of practical politics, the statesman's proper study. But then I realized that you did not raise the question in your capacity of scientist or physicist, but as a lover of his fellow men, who responded to the call of the League of Nations much as Fridtjof Nansen, the polar explorer, took on himself the task of succoring homeless and starving victims of the World War. And, next, I reminded myself that I was not being called on to formulate practical proposals but, rather, to explain how this question of preventing wars strikes a psychologist.

But here, too, you have stated the gist of the matter in your letter--and taken the wind out of my sails! Still, I will gladly follow in your wake and content myself with endorsing your conclusions, which, however, I propose to amplify to the best of my knowledge or surmise.

You begin with the relations between might and right, and this is assuredly the proper starting point for our inquiry. But, for the term might, I would substitute a tougher and more telling word: violence. In right and violence we have today an obvious antinomy. It is easy to prove that one has evolved from the other and, when we go back to origins and examine primitive conditions, the solution of the problem follows easily enough. I must crave your indulgence if in what follows I speak of well-known, admitted facts as though they were new data; the context necessitates this method.

Conflicts of interest between man and man are resolved, in principle, by the recourse to violence. It is the same in the animal kingdom, from which man cannot claim exclusion; nevertheless, men are also prone to conflicts of opinion, touching, on occasion, the loftiest peaks of abstract thought, which seem to call for settlement by quite another method. This refinement is, however, a late development. To start with, group force was the factor which, in small communities, decided points of ownership and the question which man's will was to prevail. Very soon physical force was implemented, then replaced, by the use of various adjuncts; he proved the victor whose weapon was the better, or handled the more skillfully. Now, for the first time, with the coming of weapons, superior brains began to oust brute force, but the object of the conflict remained the same: one party was to be constrained, by the injury done him or impairment of his strength, to retract a claim or a refusal. This end is most effectively gained when the opponent is definitely put out of action--in other words, is killed. This procedure has two advantages: the enemy cannot renew hostilities, and, secondly, his fate deters others fromfollowing his example. Moreover, the slaughter of a foe gratifies an instinctive craving--a point to which we shall revert hereafter. However, another consideration may be set off against this will to kill: the possibility of using an enemy for servile tasks if< his spirit be broken and his life spared. Here violence finds an outlet not in slaughter but in subjugation. Hence springs the practice of giving quarter; but the victor, having from now on to reckon with the craving for revenge that rankles in his victim, forfeits to some extent his personal security.

Thus, under primitive conditions, it is superior force--brute violence, or violence backed by arms-- that lords it everywhere. We know that in the course of evolution this state of things was modified, a path was traced that led away from violence to law. But what was this path? Surely it issued from a single verity: that the superiority of one strong man can be overborne by an alliance of many weaklings, that l'union fait la force. Brute force is overcome by union; the allied might of scattered units makes good its right against the isolated giant. Thus we may define "right" (i.e., law) as the might of a community. Yet it, too, is nothing else than violence, quick to attack whatever individual stands in its path, and it employs the selfsame methods, follows like ends, with but one difference: it is the communal, not individual, violence that has its way. But, for the transition from crude violence to the reign of law, a certain psychological condition must first obtain. The union of the majority must be stable and enduring. If its sole raison d'etre be the discomfiture of some overweening individual and, after his downfall, it be dissolved, it leads to nothing. Some other man, trusting to his superior power, will seek to reinstate the rule of violence, and the cycle will repeat itself unendingly. Thus the union of the people must be permanent and well organized; it must enact rules to meet the risk of possible revolts; must set up machinery insuring that its rules--the laws--are observed and that such acts of violence as the laws demand are duly carried out. This recognition of a community of interests engenders among the members of the group a sentiment of unity and fraternal solidarity which constitutes its real strength.

So far I have set out what seems to me the kernel of the matter: the suppression of brute force by the transfer of power to a larger combination, founded on the community of sentiments linking up its members. All the rest is mere tautology and glosses. Now the position is simple enough so long as the community consists of a number of equipollent individuals. The laws of such a group can determine to what extent the individual must forfeit his personal freedom, the right of using personal force as an instrument of violence, to insure the safety of the group. But such a combination is only theoretically possible; in practice the situation is always complicated by the fact that, from the outset, the group includes elements of unequal power, men and women, elders and children, and, very soon, as a result of war and conquest, victors and the vanquished--i.e., masters and slaves--as well. From this time on the common law takes notice of these inequalities of power, laws are made by and for the rulers, giving the servile classes fewer rights. Thenceforward there exist within the state two factors making for legal instability, but legislative evolution, too: first, the attempts by members of the ruling class to set themselves above the law's restrictions and, secondly, the constant struggle of the ruled to extend their rights and see each gain embodied in the code, replacing legal disabilities by equal laws for all. The second of these tendencies will be particularly marked when there takes place a positive mutation of the balance of power within the community, the frequent outcome of certain historical conditions. In such cases the laws may gradually be adjusted to the changed conditions or (as more usually ensues) the ruling class is loath to rush in with the new developments, the result being insurrections and civil wars, a period when law is in abeyance and force once more the arbiter, followed by a new regime of law. There is another factor of constitutional change, which operates in a wholly pacific manner, viz.: the cultural evolution of the mass of the community; this factor, however, is of a different order and an only be dealt with later.

Thus we see that, even within the group itself, the exercise of violence cannot be avoided when conflicting interests are at stake. But the common needs and habits of men who live in fellowship under the same sky favor a speedy issue of such conflicts and, this being so, the possibilities of peaceful solutions make steady progress. Yet the most casual glance at world history will show an unending series of conflicts between one community and another or a group of others, between large and smaller units, between cities, countries, races, tribes and kingdoms, almost all of which were settled by the ordeal of war. Such war ends either in pillage or in conquest and its fruits, the downfall of the loser. No single all-embracing judgment can be passed on these wars of aggrandizement. Some, like the war between the Mongols and the Turks, have led to unmitigated misery; others, however, have furthered the transition from violence to law, since they brought larger units into being, within whose limits a recourse to violence was banned and a new regime determined all disputes. Thus the Roman conquest brought that boon, the pax Romana, to the Mediterranean lands. The French kings' lust for aggrandizement created a new France, flourishing in peace and unity. Paradoxical as its sounds, we must admit that warfare well might serve to pave the way to that unbroken peace we so desire, for it is war that brings vast empires into being, within whose frontiers all warfare is proscribed by a strong central power. In practice, however, this end is not attained, for as a rule the fruits of victory are but short-lived, the new-created unit falls asunder once again, generally because there can be no true cohesion between the parts that violence has welded. Hitherto, moreover, such conquests have only led to aggregations which, for all their magnitude, had limits, and disputes between these units could be resolved only by recourse to arms. For humanity at large the sole result of all these military enterprises was that, instead of frequent, not to say incessant, little wars, they had now to face great wars which, for all they came less often, were so much the more destructive.
Regarding the world of today the same conclusion holds good, and you, too, have reached it, though by a shorter path. There is but one sure way of ending war and that is the establishment, by common consent, of a central control which shall have the last word in every conflict of interests. For this, two things are needed: first, the creation of such a supreme court of judicature; secondly, its investment with adequate executive force. Unless this second requirement be fulfilled, the first is unavailing. Obviously the League of Nations, acting as a Supreme Court, fulfills the first condition; it does not fulfill the second. It has no force at its disposal and can only get it if the members of the new body, its constituent nations, furnish it. And, as things are, this is a forlorn hope. Still we should be taking a very shortsighted view of the League of Nations were we to ignore the fact that here is an experiment the like of which has rarely--never before, perhaps, on such a scale--been attempted in the course of history. It is an attempt to acquire the authority (in other words, coercive influence), which hitherto reposed exclusively in the possession of power, by calling into play certain idealistic attitudes of mind. We have seen that there are two factors of cohesion in a community: violent compulsion and ties of sentiment ("identifications," in technical parlance) between the members of the group. If one of these factors becomes inoperative, the other may still suffice to hold the group together. Obviously such notions as these can only be significant when they are the expression of a deeply rooted sense of unity, shared by all. It is necessary, therefore, to gauge the efficacy of such sentiments. History tells us that, on occasion, they have been effective. For example, the Panhellenic conception, the Greeks' awareness of superiority over their barbarian neighbors, which found expression in the Amphictyonies, the Oracles and Games, was strong enough to humanize the methods of warfare as between Greeks, though inevitably it failed to prevent conflicts between different elements of the Hellenic race or even to deter a city or group of cities from joining forces with their racial foe, the Persians, for the discomfiture of a rival. The solidarity of Christendom in the Renaissance age was no more effective, despite its vast authority, in hindering Christian nations, large and small alike, from calling in the Sultan to their aid. And, in our times, we look in vain for some such unifying notion whose authority would be unquestioned. It is all too clear that the nationalistic ideas, paramount today in every country, operate in quite a contrary direction. Some there are who hold that the Bolshevist conceptions may make an end of war, but, as things are, that goal lies very far away and, perhaps, could only be attained after a spell of brutal internecine warfare. Thus it would seem that any effort to replace brute force by the might of an ideal is, under present conditions, doomed to fail. Our logic is at fault if we ignore the fact that right is founded on brute force and even today needs violence to maintain it.
I now can comment on another of your statements. You are amazed that it is so easy to infect men with the war fever, and you surmise that man has in him an active instinct for hatred and destruction, amenable to such stimulations. I entirely agree with you. I believe in the existence of this instinct and have been recently at pains to study its manifestations. In this connection may I set out a fragment of that knowledge of the instincts, which we psychoanalysts, after so many tentative essays and gropings in the dark, have compassed? We assume that human instincts are of two kinds: those that conserve and unify, which we call "erotic" (in the meaning Plato gives to Eros in his Symposium), or else "sexual" (explicitly extending the popular connotation of "sex"); and, secondly, the instincts to destroy and kill, which we assimilate as the aggressive or destructive instincts. These are, as you perceive, the well known opposites, Love and Hate, transformed into theoretical entities; they are, perhaps, another aspect of those eternal polarities, attraction and repulsion, which fall within your province. But we must be chary of passing overhastily to the notions of good and evil. Each of these instincts is every whit as indispensable as its opposite, and all the phenomena of life derive from their activity, whether they work in concert or in opposition. It seems that an instinct of either category can operate but rarely in isolation; it is always blended ("alloyed," as we say) with a certain dosage of its opposite, which modifies its aim or even, in certain circumstances, is a prime condition of its attainment. Thus the instinct of self-preservation is certainly of an erotic nature, but to gain its end this very instinct necessitates aggressive action. In the same way the love instinct, when directed to a specific object, calls for an admixture of the acquisitive instinct if it is to enter into effective possession of that object. It is the difficulty of isolating the two kinds of instinct in their manifestations that has so long prevented us from recognizing them.

If you will travel with me a little further on this road, you will find that human affairs are complicated in yet another way. Only exceptionally does an action follow on the stimulus of a single instinct, which is per se a blend of Eros and destructiveness. As a rule several motives of similar composition concur to bring about the act. This fact was duly noted by a colleague of yours, Professor G. C. Lichtenberg, sometime Professor of Physics at Gottingen; he was perhaps even more eminent as a psychologist than as a physical scientist. He evolved the notion of a "Compass-card of Motives" and wrote: "The efficient motives impelling man to act can be classified like the thirty-two winds and described in the same manner; e.g., Food-Food-Fame or Fame-Fame-Food." Thus, when a nation is summoned to engage in war, a whole gamut of human motives may respond to this appeal--high and low motives, some openly avowed, others slurred over. The lust for aggression and destruction is certainly included; the innumerable cruelties of history and man's daily life confirm its prevalence and strength. The stimulation of these destructive impulses by appeals to idealism and the erotic instinct naturally facilitate their release. Musing on the atrocities recorded on history's page, we feel that the ideal motive has often served as a camouflage for the dust of destruction; sometimes, as with the cruelties of the Inquisition, it seems that, while the ideal motives occupied the foreground of consciousness, they drew their strength from the destructive instincts submerged in the unconscious. Both interpretations are feasible.

You are interested, I know, in the prevention of war, not in our theories, and I keep this fact in mind. Yet I would like to dwell a little longer on this destructive instinct which is seldom given the attention that its importance warrants. With the least of speculative efforts we are led to conclude that this instinct functions in every living being, striving to work its ruin and reduce life to its primal state of inert matter. Indeed, it might well be called the "death instinct"; whereas the erotic instincts vouch for the struggle to live on. The death instinct becomes an impulse to destruction when, with the aid of certain organs, it directs its action outward, against external objects. The living being, that is to say, defends its own existence by destroying foreign bodies. But, in one of its activities, the death instinct is operative within the living being and we have sought to trace back a number of normal and pathological phenomena to this introversion of the destructive instinct. We have even committed the heresy of explaining the origin of human conscience by some such "turning inward" of the aggressive impulse. Obviously when this internal tendency operates on too large a scale, it is no trivial matter; rather, a positively morbid state of things; whereas the diversion of the destructive impulse toward the external world must have beneficial effects. Here is then the biological justification for all those vile, pernicious propensities which we are now combating. We can but own that they are really more akin to nature than this our stand against them, which, in fact, remains to be accounted for.
All this may give you the impression that our theories amount to species of mythology and a gloomy one at that! But does not every natural science lead ultimately to this--a sort of mythology? Is it otherwise today with your physical sciences?
The upshot of these observations, as bearing on the subject in hand, is that there is no likelihood of our being able to suppress humanity's aggressive tendencies. In some happy corners of the earth, they say, where nature brings forth abundantly whatever man desires, there flourish races whose lives go gently by; unknowing of aggression or constraint. This I can hardly credit; I would like further details about these happy folk. The Bolshevists, too, aspire to do away with human aggressiveness by insuring the satisfaction of material needs and enforcing equality between man and man. To me this hope seems vain. Meanwhile they busily perfect their armaments, and their hatred of outsiders is not the least of the factors of cohesion among themselves. In any case, as you too have observed, complete suppression of man's aggressive tendencies is not in issue; what we may try is to divert it into a channel other than that of warfare.

From our "mythology" of the instincts we may easily deduce a formula for an indirect method of eliminating war. If the propensity for war be due to the destructive instinct, we have always its counter-agent, Eros, to our hand. All that produces ties of sentiment between man and man must serve us as war's antidote. These ties are of two kinds. First, such relations as those toward a beloved object, void though they be of sexual intent. The psychoanalyst need feel no compunction in mentioning "love" in this connection; religion uses the same language: Love thy neighbor as thyself. A pious injunction, easy to enounce, but hard to carry out! The other bond of sentiment is by way of identification. All that brings out the significant resemblances between men calls into play this feeling of community, identification, whereon is founded, in large measure, the whole edifice of human society.

In your strictures on the abuse of authority I find another suggestion for an indirect attack on the war impulse. That men are divided into the leaders and the led is but another manifestation of their inborn and irremediable inequality. The second class constitutes the vast majority; they need a high command to make decisions for them, to which decisions they usually bow without demur. In this context we would point out that men should be at greater pains than heretofore to form a superior class of independent thinkers, unamenable to intimidation and fervent in the quest of truth, whose function it would be to guide the masses dependent on their lead. There is no need to point out how little the rule of politicians and the Church's ban on liberty of thought encourage such a new creation. The ideal conditions would obviously be found in a community where every man subordinated his instinctive life to the dictates of reason. Nothing less than this could bring about so thorough and so durable a union between men, even if this involved the severance of mutual ties of sentiment. But surely such a hope is utterly utopian, as things are. The other indirect methods of preventing war are certainly more feasible, but entail no quick results. They conjure up an ugly picture of mills that grind so slowly that, before the flour is ready, men are dead of hunger.

As you see, little good comes of consulting a theoretician, aloof from worldly contact, on practical and urgent problems! Better it were to tackle each successive crisis with means that we have ready to our hands. However, I would like to deal with a question which, though it is not mooted in your letter, interests me greatly. Why do we, you and I and many another, protest so vehemently against war, instead of just accepting it as another of life's odious importunities? For it seems a natural thing enough, biologically sound and practically unavoidable. I trust you will not be shocked by my raising such a question. For the better conduct of an inquiry it may be well to don a mask of feigned aloofness. The answer to my query may run as follows: Because every man has a right over his own life and war destroys lives that were full of promise; it forces the individual into situations that shame his manhood, obliging him to murder fellow men, against his will; it ravages material amenities, the fruits of human toil, and much besides. Moreover, wars, as now conducted, afford no scope for acts of heroism according to the old ideals and, given the high perfection of modern arms, war today would mean the sheer extermination of one of the combatants, if not of both. This is so true, so obvious, that we can but wonder why the conduct of war is not banned by general consent. Doubtless either of the points I have just made is open to debate. It may be asked if the community, in its turn, cannot claim a right over the individual lives of its members. Moreover, all forms of war cannot be indiscriminately condemned; so long as there are nations and empires, each prepared callously to exterminate its rival, all alike must be equipped for war. But we will not dwell on any of these problems; they lie outside the debate to which you have invited me. I pass on to another point, the basis, as it strikes me, of our common hatred of war. It is this: We cannot do otherwise than hate it. Pacifists we are, since our organic nature wills us thus to be. Hence it comes easy to us to find arguments that justify our standpoint.

This point, however, calls for elucidation. Here is the way in which I see it. The cultural development of mankind (some, I know, prefer to call it civilization) has been in progress since immemorial antiquity. To this processus we owe all that is best in our composition, but also much that makes for human suffering. Its origins and causes are obscure, its issue is uncertain, but some of its characteristics are easy to perceive. It well may lead to the extinction of mankind, for it impairs the sexual function in more than one respect, and even today the uncivilized races and the backward classes of all nations are multiplying more rapidly than the cultured elements. This process may, perhaps, be likened to the effects of domestication on certain animals--it clearly involves physical changes of structure--but the view that cultural development is an organic process of this order has not yet become generally familiar. The psychic changes which accompany this process of cultural change are striking, and not to be gainsaid. They consist in the progressive rejection of instinctive ends and a scaling down of instinctive reactions. Sensations which delighted our forefathers have become neutral or unbearable to us; and, if our ethical and aesthetic ideals have undergone a change, the causes of this are ultimately organic. On the psychological side two of the most important phenomena of culture are, firstly, a strengthening of the intellect, which tends to master our instinctive life, and, secondly, an introversion of the aggressive impulse, with all its consequent benefits and perils. Now war runs most emphatically counter to the psychic disposition imposed on us by the growth of culture; we are therefore bound to resent war, to find it utterly intolerable. With pacifists like us it is not merely an intellectual and affective repulsion, but a constitutional intolerance, an idiosyncrasy in its most drastic form. And it would seem that the aesthetic ignominies of warfare play almost as large a part in this repugnance as war's atrocities.

How long have we to wait before the rest of men turn pacifist? Impossible to say, and yet perhaps our hope that these two factors--man's cultural disposition and a well-founded dread of the form that future wars will take--may serve to put an end to war in the near future, is not chimerical. But by what ways or byways this will come about, we cannot guess. Meanwhile we may rest on the assurance that whatever makes for cultural development is working also against war.

With kindest regards and, should this expose prove a disappointment to you, my sincere regrets,

Yours,
SIGMUND FREUD

Einstein was apparently not disappointed when Freud's reply was received. He addressed the following letter to Freud on December 3, 1932:


You have made a most gratifying gift to the League of Nations and myself with your truly classic reply. When I wrote you I was thoroughly convinced of the insignificance of my role, which was only meant to document my good will, with me as the bait on the hoof; to tempt the marvelous fish into nibbling. You have given in return something altogether magnificent. We cannot know what may grow from such seed, as the effect upon man of any action or event is always incalculable. This is not within our power and we do not need to worry about it.

You have earned my gratitude and the gratitude of all men for having devoted all your strength to the search for truth and for having shown the rarest courage in professing your convictions all your life. . . .

By the time the exchange between Einstein and Freud was published in 1933, under the title Why War?, Hitler, who was to drive both men into exile, was already in power, and the letters never achieved the wide circulation intended for them. Indeed, the first German edition of the pamphlet is reported to have been limited to only 2,000 copies, as was also the original English edition.
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Re: My best guesses on a couple potential sock puppets...

Postby Ecmandu » Sat Apr 27, 2019 9:51 pm

Well, barbarian, Einstein has a quote like this, "if I had known the Germans were incapable of building the atomic bomb, I wouldn't have lifted a finger"

That's from memory... it's almost exact if you bother to look it up.

Maybe Archimedes wouldn't have build trebuchets and machine guns (with wooden stakes). Who knows?
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Re: My best guesses on a couple potential sock puppets...

Postby barbarianhorde » Sat Apr 27, 2019 9:53 pm

Ecmandu wrote:Well, barbarian, Einstein has a quote like this, "if I had known the Germans were incapable of building the atomic bomb, I wouldn't have lifted a finger"

Yes, naturally. He was a pacifist, as he makes clear in the letter to Freud.

Maybe Archimedes wouldn't have build trebuchets and machine guns (with wooden stakes). Who knows?

Yeah but he had to because evil lurked.

Thats what a true good man does, - something decisive in favour of the good.
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Re: My best guesses on a couple potential sock puppets...

Postby barbarianhorde » Sat Apr 27, 2019 9:54 pm

all others are frauds, I say.
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Re: My best guesses on a couple potential sock puppets...

Postby Ecmandu » Sat Apr 27, 2019 9:59 pm

barbarianhorde wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:Well, barbarian, Einstein has a quote like this, "if I had known the Germans were incapable of building the atomic bomb, I wouldn't have lifted a finger"

Yes, naturally. He was a pacifist, as he makes clear in the letter to Freud.

Maybe Archimedes wouldn't have build trebuchets and machine guns (with wooden stakes). Who knows?

Yeah but he had to because evil lurked.

Thats what a true good man does, - something decisive in favour of the good.


That's what Einstein did too, but he didn't have the correct information. Are we a better world because of the nuclear age??

Are we a better world because Archimedes was the only person even close to building technology like his in that age ??

They both raised the stakes on arms races.

I imagine they both would regret it in retrospect.
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Re: My best guesses on a couple potential sock puppets...

Postby barbarianhorde » Sun Apr 28, 2019 4:16 pm

There is a strong case to me made that nuclear weaponry has decreased wars in the world as superpowers can't afford to go to war with each other anymore.
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Re: My best guesses on a couple potential sock puppets...

Postby Ecmandu » Sun Apr 28, 2019 4:42 pm

barbarianhorde wrote:There is a strong case to me made that nuclear weaponry has decreased wars in the world as superpowers can't afford to go to war with each other anymore.


Yeah, you can make that case except for people who just want to blow the whole thing up. Which there are tons of. Now we're looking at taking weapons to space... *sigh*
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Re: My best guesses on a couple potential sock puppets...

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Mon Apr 29, 2019 5:28 am

Ecmandu wrote:I think peacegirl is trixie

I think iambiguous is uccisore

Uccisore is the only other true sociopath that I've seen on ILP.
Uccisore was conservative, iambigious is liberal lefty - with all the provisos around objectivism tacked on.
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Re: My best guesses on a couple potential sock puppets...

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Mon Apr 29, 2019 6:28 am

Leonardo.
Last edited by Pedro I Rengel on Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: My best guesses on a couple potential sock puppets...

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Mon Apr 29, 2019 6:37 am

God bless the USA.
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Re: My best guesses on a couple potential sock puppets...

Postby barbarianhorde » Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:08 pm

Ecmandu wrote:
barbarianhorde wrote:There is a strong case to me made that nuclear weaponry has decreased wars in the world as superpowers can't afford to go to war with each other anymore.


Yeah, you can make that case except for people who just want to blow the whole thing up. Which there are tons of. Now we're looking at taking weapons to space... *sigh*

Plus all these violent stars which are all nuclear explosion too.
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Re: My best guesses on a couple potential sock puppets...

Postby iambiguous » Mon Apr 29, 2019 6:33 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:I think peacegirl is trixie

I think iambiguous is uccisore

Uccisore is the only other true sociopath that I've seen on ILP.
Uccisore was conservative, iambigious is liberal lefty - with all the provisos around objectivism tacked on.


Actually, uccisore is an objectivist. In a God world to boot. And it is that which I kept bringing to his attention. And it is that which tended to provoke him into reacting to me as so many objectivists eventually do: what if Biggy is right?! :o

What if "I" am attracted to Don Trump [as he clearly was] as but the embodiment of this: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296

What if my precious values really are by and large just existential constructions, deconstructions and reconstructions in a world awash in contingency, chance and change? What of my precious "I" then?

Thus my own "liberal-lefty" values are seen by me to be just a set of political prejudices derived existentially from the life that I lived. As encompassed here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

Ever and always subject to change given new experiences, new relationships and access to new information, knowledge, ideas.

On the other hand, at least uccisore wasn't one of those godawful Kids here!! :wink:
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: My best guesses on a couple potential sock puppets...

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:30 pm

iambiguous wrote:
Karpel Tunnel wrote:Uccisore was conservative, iambigious is liberal lefty - with all the provisos around objectivism tacked on.


Actually, uccisore is an objectivist.
Yup, no 'actually' needed, he had no provisos regarding his moral and political stances.

In a God world to boot. And it is that which I kept bringing to his attention. And it is that which tended to provoke him into reacting to me as so many objectivists eventually do: what if Biggy is right?! :o
[/quote]Could you link to him reacting that way?
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Re: My best guesses on a couple potential sock puppets...

Postby iambiguous » Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:52 pm

In a God world to boot. And it is that which I kept bringing to his attention. And it is that which tended to provoke him into reacting to me as so many objectivists eventually do: what if Biggy is right?! :o


Karpel Tunnel wrote:Could you link to him reacting that way?


No way in hell I am going to expend time wading through my exchanges with him in order to demonstrate that. If you choose to not believe me, fine.


Besides, it's only a matter of time before you are reacting the same. :wink:
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: My best guesses on a couple potential sock puppets...

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:06 pm

iambiguous wrote:In a God world to boot. And it is that which I kept bringing to his attention. And it is that which tended to provoke him into reacting to me as so many objectivists eventually do: what if Biggy is right?! :o


Karpel Tunnel wrote:Could you link to him reacting that way?


No way in hell I am going to expend time wading through my exchanges with him in order to demonstrate that. If you choose to not believe me, fine.
You just made up stuff about yourself and another person.


Besides, it's only a matter of time before you are reacting the same. :wink:
[/quote]What if Biggy is right about objectivism? I've not believed in objective morals since I was a teenager/early twenties. That belief dissipated in that period. I suppose at some point you'll take credit for that.

You're a liar.
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Iambiguous is a liar

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:12 pm

Dear Threadmates: Here Iambiguous lies about an ILP member not present to call him on it.

iambiguous wrote:Actually, uccisore is an objectivist. In a God world to boot. And it is that which I kept bringing to his attention. And it is that which tended to provoke him into reacting to me as so many objectivists eventually do: what if Biggy is right?! :o


This self-congratulatory 'I won' behavior is precisely like the Know Thyself kids behavior they learned from the master.
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Re: My best guesses on a couple potential sock puppets...

Postby iambiguous » Wed May 01, 2019 8:23 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote: Could you link to him reacting that way?


No way in hell I am going to expend time wading through my exchanges with him in order to demonstrate that. If you choose to not believe me, fine.


Karpel Tunnel wrote:You just made up stuff about yourself and another person.


No, I am noting that in the past I have had exchanges with uccisore [and other objectivists here] in which I made a distinction between disagreeing about one or another political value judgment, and exploring the extent to which any particular value judgment is or is not a reflection of that which I construe to be an objectivists point of view. But that I am not going to take the time to go back through all of those exchanges to demonstrate that. I have other more pressing things I prefer to invest the time I have left in. So, you accuse me of "making stuff up" then.

Fine, believe that if you wish.

Besides, it's only a matter of time before you are reacting the same. :wink:


What if Biggy is right about objectivism? I've not believed in objective morals since I was a teenager/early twenties. That belief dissipated in that period. I suppose at some point you'll take credit for that.


Karpel Tunnel wrote: You're a liar.


Huh?

I have no idea of what you are accusing me of here. I've only ever been interested in exploring how, given that we both describe ourselves as pragmatists, your understanding of it is different from mine.

As this pertains to a particular context in which conflicting goods rear their [at times] ugly heads.

And the further it seems [to me] that you are obsessed with making me the issue instead the further convinced I am that it is only a matter of time before your own particular "I" is wobbling all the more. :-k

Hell, I've been dealing with reactions like yours now for years and years. I've got to extrapolate some conclusions from it.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: My best guesses on a couple potential sock puppets...

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Wed May 01, 2019 8:37 pm

iambiguous wrote:No, I am noting that in the past I have had exchanges with uccisore [and other objectivists here] in which I made a distinction between disagreeing about one or another political value judgment, and exploring the extent to which any particular value judgment is or is not a reflection of that which I construe to be an objectivists point of view.
Well, of course you did. I wouldn't contest that for a second. I am contesting you're saying you made him afraid you were right or whateve it was you asserted about his emotional reactions and I think you might have said you drove him away. That's what I was calling a lie.

But that I am not going to take the time to go back through all of those exchanges to demonstrate that. I have other more pressing things I prefer to invest the time I have left in. So, you accuse me of "making stuff up" then.

Fine, believe that if you wish.
I did go back and look and it didn't look like it to me. I also had private communication with him back then and it does not fit with what he said to me. I am working with that. Could I be wrong? yes. But obviously I doubt it. I don't think you have evidence about his internal states or his motivations for leaving. And you seem to lie here even about yourself and your motives.

I don't think you are an honest person.

Besides, it's only a matter of time before you are reacting the same. :wink:



And the further it seems [to me] that you are obsessed with making me the issue instead the further convinced I am that it is only a matter of time before your own particular "I" is wobbling all the more. :-k
Now it's predictive mind reading. Your nihilism doesn't seem to affect your own psychic claims.

Hell, I've been dealing with reactions like yours now for years and years.
I am sure a number of people have found your disingenousness and narcissism elicited a wide range of reactions. And you interpreted this in ways that were ego-syntonic.

Satyr does exactly the same thing. It's a central KT kids inheritance. Self-congratulatory assessments. And it's so facile online.
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Re: My best guesses on a couple potential sock puppets...

Postby iambiguous » Thu May 02, 2019 6:58 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
iambiguous wrote:No, I am noting that in the past I have had exchanges with uccisore [and other objectivists here] in which I made a distinction between disagreeing about one or another political value judgment, and exploring the extent to which any particular value judgment is or is not a reflection of that which I construe to be an objectivists point of view.


Well, of course you did. I wouldn't contest that for a second. I am contesting you're saying you made him afraid you were right or whateve it was you asserted about his emotional reactions and I think you might have said you drove him away. That's what I was calling a lie.


All I can do here is to extrapolate from the many, many, many experiences I have had on online with objectivists going back nearly 20 years now. No, I can't prove beyond all doubt that I "drove him away". I can only suspect that, based on those past experiences, my argument might have perturbed him enough to move on.

Karpel Tunnel wrote: I did go back and look and it didn't look like it to me. I also had private communication with him back then and it does not fit with what he said to me. I am working with that. Could I be wrong? yes. But obviously I doubt it.


Okay, note that in detail for us. If it appears that you are in fact closer to the whole truth here than that which revolves around my suspicions, I will gladly concede.

Then [of course] it's back to this:

Karpel Tunnel wrote: I don't think you have evidence about his internal states or his motivations for leaving. And you seem to lie here even about yourself and your motives.

I don't think you are an honest person.


It's all about me being a pathetic liar. Not only that, but I never, ever really intend here to tell the truth.

I can only allow others to judge for themselves what this tells us about you. And about me.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: My best guesses on a couple potential sock puppets...

Postby Ecmandu » Thu May 02, 2019 7:17 pm

Iambiguous,

In this post, you certainly paint yourself as the victim, which you do probably every 7 posts or so.

So, when a hardcore objectivist like me comes along, and gives you proofs to get out of your hole, you post winks, lols, and dancing bananas.

I can't remember which personality disorder that is, creating problems and going into denial when people offer actual solutions, for attention.

That's actually a mix of borderline and histrionic.

What's abundantly clear to everyone here is your narcissism, that because you are in your hole, everyone must be.

I saw psychopathy as well, when you decided Karpel tunnel was your little toy to play with, your little nothing shit puppet.

Basically, iambiguous, you're really fucked in the head.

The way this is most obviously demonstrated, is that you are a "do what I what I want you to say, and not what I demonstrate through my actions as the opposite of what I say"

That's the mind of a dictator.
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Re: My best guesses on a couple potential sock puppets...

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Thu May 02, 2019 10:45 pm

Iambiguous-
Same old stuff. I am going to cut off the lines we have gotten into since I keep meeting the same patterns. So, reset from zero. We will meet again in new spots and from here on out I will use the shorthand set out below. Should you actually respond and appear to have read what I wrote, I will then respond normally. Otherwise..... shorthand
SAOAR: Shifting away onus and responsibility.
NIST: Narcissistic Illogical Shift of Topic. Treating something as a failed solution to your core problems and/or bringing up your core topic as if it is a response when it is a change of topic.
RR: Redundant Request. That is requests for things already done which led nowhere.
SCMR: Self-congratulatory mind reading claims
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Re: My best guesses on a couple potential sock puppets...

Postby Ecmandu » Thu May 02, 2019 11:35 pm

Iambiguous, for the first time in his life is being dissected philosophically and linguistically by people who actually don't live in a shallow world of words like he does, and people who actually bring it down to earth like he doesn't.

It'll be interesting to me if he can endure another 3 rounds of reality from me in the current debate.
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Re: My best guesses on a couple potential sock puppets...

Postby iambiguous » Thu May 02, 2019 11:38 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:Iambiguous-
Same old stuff. I am going to cut off the lines we have gotten into since I keep meeting the same patterns. So, reset from zero. We will meet again in new spots and from here on out I will use the shorthand set out below. Should you actually respond and appear to have read what I wrote, I will then respond normally. Otherwise..... shorthand
SAOAR: Shifting away onus and responsibility.
NIST: Narcissistic Illogical Shift of Topic. Treating something as a failed solution to your core problems and/or bringing up your core topic as if it is a response when it is a change of topic.
RR: Redundant Request. That is requests for things already done which led nowhere.
SCMR: Self-congratulatory mind reading claims


Okay, it's settled then. We move on to others.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: My best guesses on a couple potential sock puppets...

Postby barbarianhorde » Wed May 08, 2019 1:55 pm

Iambuggingyous lives by the motto: there is no such thing as bad publicity.
Internet credits is what he goes for. People need to be talking about him, to him, and his threads need to be always in plain sight. A Troll. The best method for a troll is to not actually read posts and respond knowingly with inaccurate interpretations - this gives guarantee of the most irritation and thus the most responses.
If he would seriously address anyones point, that person would feel a sense of satisfaction and might not reply.

The world is will to power, dudelings. See that and the bugger is as transparent as Ethiopians in the 80s.
It is true that liberty is precious; so precious that it must be carefully rationed.
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Re: My best guesses on a couple potential sock puppets...

Postby iambiguous » Thu May 09, 2019 7:05 pm

barbarianhorde wrote:If he would seriously address anyones point, that person would feel a sense of satisfaction and might not reply.


Okay, note the point you think KT was making that I was most egregious in not addressing.


Or, make a new point yourself. I'll respond to it and you can point out in greater detail how I failed to address it. How instead my posts here are more in the way of what one would expect from a troll.


As opposed to, say, a Kid.


Unless, of course, I an not understanding your point here. You know, if there is one. :wink:
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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