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Hallucinations

PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:40 am
by Gloominary
How do we know schizophrenics aren't accessing worlds we can't?

Re: Hallucinations

PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 2:51 am
by Mr Reasonable
Depends on how you define, "know".

Re: Hallucinations

PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:49 pm
by barbarianhorde
Gloominary wrote:How do we know schizophrenics aren't accessing worlds we can't?

Well we know that they do. Whether we think these worlds are relevant to our worlds is questionable.

Or do you mean worlds of psychic revelation?

To verify that we would need to try to falsify their claims rather than a priori reject them.

Re: Hallucinations

PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:15 am
by Gloominary
Mr Reasonable wrote:Depends on how you define, "know".

By know, I meant what reason do we have to believe.

Re: Hallucinations

PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:17 am
by Gloominary
barbarianhorde wrote:
Gloominary wrote:How do we know schizophrenics aren't accessing worlds we can't?

Well we know that they do. Whether we think these worlds are relevant to our worlds is questionable.

Or do you mean worlds of psychic revelation?

To verify that we would need to try to falsify their claims rather than a priori reject them.

I meant objective worlds and entities that exist outside their heads, that only they can sense.

Re: Hallucinations

PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:39 am
by Mr Reasonable
Gloominary wrote:
Mr Reasonable wrote:Depends on how you define, "know".

By know, I meant what reason do we have to believe.


You need a reason to believe there aren't worlds that you can't access?

Re: Hallucinations

PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:12 pm
by Gloominary
Mr Reasonable wrote:
Gloominary wrote:
Mr Reasonable wrote:Depends on how you define, "know".

By know, I meant what reason do we have to believe.


You need a reason to believe there aren't worlds that you can't access?

Yes, I need reasons to believe some things are, and some things aren't.

Several centuries ago, we didn't have telescopes or microscopes.

A century or two ago, we couldn't access infrared or ultraviolet, infrasound or ultrasound.

A century or two ago, we couldn't infer dark matter, dark energy or the multiverse.

Yet all of these fantastic phenomena existed long before we became aware of them.

Re: Hallucinations

PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:49 pm
by Karpel Tunnel
Gloominary wrote:How do we know schizophrenics aren't accessing worlds we can't?
Sometimes they are saying things that we can access, so we can be contentious over that. Personallly, I think that sometimes the schizophrenic is estimating the importance of some things to a level that is out of proportion or out of proportion to the views of others around them. Paranoia can be one example. There may be no formal conspiracy to kill them or do them harm with people whispering evil suggestions about them and plotting. However they may be picking up an underbelly of not very nice reactions and opinions, the stuff most people pretend they do not have. But psychosis in general interests me more than schizophrenics, because I think often in psychosis there is a lot of truth, but it may take work to sift it out. It may be metaphorically presented and taken literally, for example.

I think a sane until demonstrated insane attitude is a much better one. Let's find out the value that may be in what this person is presenting. Rather than the broken machine assessment to medication judgment that gets handed down so often in our culture. Likewise the social forms of marginalizing and dismissing.

I've had disucssions with diagnosed people where I have argued against their own assessment of 'being crazy' and found reasons for their beliefs and past experiences that were returning in disguised form and metaphorical usefulness that they then could use.

I find people very close-minded and their own fears of being dismissed and marginalized and also of ever having to deal with cognitive dissonence are driving a lot of their reactions.

Now getting to the more metaphysical end of your question: I think that sometimes there are deep insights in psychotic and other altered states. And unless we take a curious exploratory attitude, we will never really challenge ourselves.

Re: Hallucinations

PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:42 am
by Gloominary
Karpel Tunnel wrote:
Gloominary wrote:How do we know schizophrenics aren't accessing worlds we can't?
Sometimes they are saying things that we can access, so we can be contentious over that. Personallly, I think that sometimes the schizophrenic is estimating the importance of some things to a level that is out of proportion or out of proportion to the views of others around them. Paranoia can be one example. There may be no formal conspiracy to kill them or do them harm with people whispering evil suggestions about them and plotting. However they may be picking up an underbelly of not very nice reactions and opinions, the stuff most people pretend they do not have. But psychosis in general interests me more than schizophrenics, because I think often in psychosis there is a lot of truth, but it may take work to sift it out. It may be metaphorically presented and taken literally, for example.

I think a sane until demonstrated insane attitude is a much better one. Let's find out the value that may be in what this person is presenting. Rather than the broken machine assessment to medication judgment that gets handed down so often in our culture. Likewise the social forms of marginalizing and dismissing.

I've had disucssions with diagnosed people where I have argued against their own assessment of 'being crazy' and found reasons for their beliefs and past experiences that were returning in disguised form and metaphorical usefulness that they then could use.

I find people very close-minded and their own fears of being dismissed and marginalized and also of ever having to deal with cognitive dissonence are driving a lot of their reactions.

Now getting to the more metaphysical end of your question: I think that sometimes there are deep insights in psychotic and other altered states. And unless we take a curious exploratory attitude, we will never really challenge ourselves.

Good points, I was thinking more like schizophrenics (or psychotics) may have access to other worlds beyond this one, and they may, but they may also be picking up on energy people give off individually and collectively most of us most of the time are subconscious or unconscious of, or they may be talking and thinking metaphorically.

I prefer to presume there's some (probably not total) validity behind their visions, or how they're interpreting things, rather than just dismiss them too.
I usually get along real well with schizophrenics, despite not exhibiting any of their symptoms, because of how openminded and non-judgemental I am.
I'm fascinated by them, and enjoy trying to figure out how they perceive the world.

Re: Hallucinations

PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:42 pm
by Karpel Tunnel
Gloominary wrote:Good points, I was thinking more like schizophrenics (or psychotics) may have access to other worlds beyond this one, and they may, but they may also be picking up on energy people give off individually and collectively most of us most of the time are subconscious or unconscious of, or they may be talking and thinking metaphorically.
Sure, there could also be other worlds. I mean, I do think there are, and that could be a part of what they are experiencing. Haven't talked much to schizophrenics during full out psychosis. Other non-schizophrenics and people on drugs, yes. I suppose if these worlds have nothing at all to do with what I experience, then it doesn't matter much if I take them seriously or not. I tend to think that other worlds overlap this one, are perhaps dimensions or facets of this one, or might come to be experienced by me so they could matter. Always curious. I suppose my tendency would be to see why the person thinks it is important, if they are capable of saying at that time. The importance might be a bridge to this world.

I prefer to presume there's some (probably not total) validity behind their visions, or how they're interpreting things, rather than just dismiss them too.
I usually get along real well with schizophrenics, despite not exhibiting any of their symptoms, because of how openminded and non-judgemental I am.
I'm fascinated by them, and enjoy trying to figure out how they perceive the world.
Yes, me too. It is interesting. Most conversations are just rehashing mediocre ideas that other people came up with. Most people just being weigh stations or is it way stations, places memes stop on their journeys around the world. Like people are routers for emails or something. So unique positions, ideas, experiences, interpretations are generally welcome, especially if the person is somehow interesting. With Schiphrenics I am sometimes overwhelmed by their pain and this distracts from their ideas. Sometimes it feels like the odd stuff is a kind of addiction. Doesn't mean they are wrong or deluded, jsut that it offers respite from being alone, in tremendous emotional pain and lacking activities they can be passoinate about and finding meaning in. (Not that I take schizophrenia or the DSM5 as a factual category and as a correct set of interpreations of patterns I also see. But the people who get diagnosed as Ss seem to me usually to be in terrible pain.)