Can we think without, thinking?

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Can we think without, thinking?

Postby Gloominary » Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:47 pm

Are we able to understand reality without exactly thinking about, or labeling it in some way?
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Re: Can we think without, thinking?

Postby Gloominary » Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:06 pm

Can we phenomenally, sensually understand stuff without labeling it?

And are there thousands, perhaps millions of labels we haven't, linguified, if you will, turned into language, perhaps because they can't (easily) be linguified?

All or some of these (yet) unlinguified labels, or categories may be (partly) fixed or malleable.

If they exist, they probably more-less vary from person to person, people to people.

Perhaps these unlinguified labels are easier to dance, gesture or facially express than they are named or numbered.
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Re: Can we think without, thinking?

Postby Serendipper » Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:07 pm

Gloominary wrote:Are we able to understand reality without exactly thinking about, or labeling it in some way?

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=193866&start=50#p2697490
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Re: Can we think without, thinking?

Postby Meno_ » Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:51 pm

Gloominary wrote:Are we able to understand reality without exactly thinking about, or labeling it in some way?



We can think without labeling, but can we think without thinking about thinking about thinking about thinking........
Or to cut that short can we think unconsciously? Or subconsciously? I think we can think without labeling what we are doing as 'thinking'.
That is , can we think in pictures? I think we can if thinking can be thought literally or figuratively, once we qualify pictures as the products of thought.
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Re: Can we think without, thinking?

Postby Gloominary » Fri Mar 23, 2018 5:59 pm

Meno

We can think without labeling, but can we think without thinking about thinking about thinking about thinking........

Right, I think we can understand both outer, and inner reality directly, without processing or filtering it through labels or categories, or making comparisons.
We use categories to infer things about stuff, or for convenience, because sometimes it's too much trouble to understand things as they are, in their entirety, we need to simplify them, or for the purposes of communication, to make things articulable, we attempt to assign them the right category or word, often pre-emptively, before we're going to talk about them with others.

Or to cut that short can we think unconsciously? Or subconsciously?

Yea, I think we can think about stuff without being very aware of our thinking, or how we're thinking about it, the thought processes involved, or why we're thinking about it.
And we may think about something briefly, and then forgot we were thinking about it shortly afterward.

I think we can think without labeling what we are doing as 'thinking'.

Right, just as we can be aware of things without assigning them labels, we can be aware of our consciousness without assigning it labels, or we can be partly, perhaps even fully unaware of our consciousness, we may be so caught up in the contents of consciousness, we kind of forget ourselves in the process.

That is, can we think in pictures? I think we can if thinking can be thought literally or figuratively, once we qualify pictures as the products of thought.

I think we can understand things directly, literally as they are, the stuff of sensation, and the stuff of introspection, sensually, introspectively.
We also symbolize things in dreams, in poetry and poetric thinking, but that's something a little different than what I'm talking about, I was talking about direct, unfiltered awareness.
But there is a kind of dream language, poetry, and it may be partly innate, partly malleable.
It's a more sensual form of labelling, to symbolize groups of images, sounds, smells and so on with archetypal things, like how a sunset symbolizes enlightenment, or a river change.
Kind of like how the Egyptians wrote in hieroglyphs, pictographs, it's more primordial and, organic to symbolize stuff artistically than with words and numbers.
We probably thought like this way before language evolved, and every night during REM we return to this mode of thought, which is often difficult for the linguistic brain to decipher, to make heads or tails of in the morning, that is if it can even recall any of it.
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Re: Can we think without, thinking?

Postby Gloominary » Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:13 pm

Serendipper wrote:
Gloominary wrote:Are we able to understand reality without exactly thinking about, or labeling it in some way?

http://ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p2697490

It seems like Alan Watts was talking about attaining some kind of 'absolute knowledge' paradoxically by emptying the mind, which's not really what I was referring to, I was talking about ones understanding being full of something(s) (not nothing, everything or likening nothing to everything), it could be trees, clouds, what have you, that you could comprehend what you're looking at without labelling it, in fact much more so without labelling, you would understand it in all, or much more of its variety, its many shades or hues, and interact with it accordingly, than had you categorized it.

It could also be an awareness of the contents of your mind (or the mind itself), like recalling a memory, being aware of it phenomenally, sensually without parsing or compartmentalizing.
Kind of like how you can place a filer or grid over a jar, so only some thing can pass through, or they have to be squeezed through, distorting or warping them in the process, or alternatively, you can take the filter or grid off, and allow everything to pass into the jar as they are.

A sort of, pure awareness, if you will.
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Re: Can we think without, thinking?

Postby Serendipper » Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:07 pm

Gloominary wrote:
Serendipper wrote:
Gloominary wrote:Are we able to understand reality without exactly thinking about, or labeling it in some way?

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=193866&start=50#p2697490

It seems like Alan Watts was talking about attaining some kind of 'absolute knowledge' paradoxically by emptying the mind, which's not really what I was referring to, I was talking about ones understanding being full of something(s) (not nothing, everything or likening nothing to everything), it could be trees, clouds, what have you, that you could comprehend what you're looking at without labelling it, in fact much more so without labelling, you would understand it in all, or much more of its variety, its many shades or hues, and interact with it accordingly, than had you categorized it.

It could also be an awareness of the contents of your mind (or the mind itself), like recalling a memory, being aware of it phenomenally, sensually without parsing or compartmentalizing.
Kind of like how you can place a filer or grid over a jar, so only some thing can pass through, or they have to be squeezed through, distorting or warping them in the process, or alternatively, you can take the filter or grid off, and allow everything to pass into the jar as they are.

A sort of, pure awareness, if you will.

There are two kinds of knowledge: conceptual and nonconceptual. You know what conceptual knowledge is, but nonconceptual knowledge can be the knowledge you use to beat your heart and work your endocrine system. Alan talked about asking god how he made the universe and his reply would be the same as asking you how you beat your heart, "Idk, I just do it." Or else he would say "To tell you how I did it would take an eternity because words are too limited." That is why Hindu gods have 10 arms because to think about how to move 10 arms would be too confusing; they just do it. Then Alan goes into the nonconceptual knowledge and knowledge by faith, as it were. Faith is not fervently believing in something that you don't really believe, but more like subconscious knowledge that can't be conceptualized and articulated.

He talked endlessly on that subject. The Vish game is another angle he used to emphasize the circular reasoning implicit in the defining process of any standard dictionary. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vish_(game) Words can only take you so far.
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Re: Can we think without, thinking?

Postby Zero_Sum » Mon Mar 26, 2018 8:01 pm

A more important question concerning the one dimensional component of the human mind, are we incapable of viewing the world or universe as something other than ourselves? :-k
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Re: Can we think without, thinking?

Postby Meno_ » Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:19 am

Zero_Sum wrote:A more important question concerning the one dimensional component of the human mind, are we incapable of viewing the world or universe as something other than ourselves? :-k



If we don't we will. not the abyss, since though about thought about thought is a reduction absurdum.Meaning we will realize the absurdity of reaching the Dasein as pure abstraction.
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Re: Can we think without, thinking?

Postby Dan~ » Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:32 am

Travel without moving.
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Re: Can we think without, thinking?

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:56 am

Dan~ wrote:Travel without moving.
We's all doing that. Kinda a spiral, round dat sun, round dat earth and de hole shabang swinging our little wing of the galaxy. I mean, de sun moving, man, but its gonna rise mainly cause I am moving even when I sleep. You traveling man, even when you try to keep still. Test it. Sure as diarrhea sun gonna rise cause you traveled.
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Re: Can we think without, thinking?

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:03 am

Gloominary wrote:Are we able to understand reality without exactly thinking about, or labeling it in some way?

Damn my kid he look at his momses face and locked on. You think he think thought about that? Man, he no spend five minutes looking that the wall and deciding using baby logic, hey dat aint my mom, he no be using no deduction, he sees dat (forgive me honey) fucking face and he knows, right off, never having seen a fucking face (apologies honey) that that thing is interesting. He know he gonna learn and love facing that set of pixels (pardon the crass modern idiocy honey) and not some other. He knows and right off he start learning. No words in his head. Man, he say, without words, I am gonna focus on that lovely thing (see honey) cause dat is where the learning and love is. And he do that until honey and I are alone again in the house and can breathe out 18-21 years later. He knows my face is a face without reading a textbook a couple of minutes later, but the little brat knows he's gonna stay fixed on mom's face for a long time, mine coming in second. Not the chair, not the ceiling lamp (he's not a fucking moth).

He knows stuff, coming out of that dark cave. right off the bat. he learn stuff, right off the bat.

You think our dog be conceptualizing stuff, but man he thinking. He don't dig in the garbage when we's home.

YOu think he do syllogisms, drew a map. Fuck, he deep, he knows stuff. He learning.

Wordy wordy thinking neocortex think he got a fucking bill gates monopoly. These rational head cases think they the man.
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Re: Can we think without, thinking?

Postby Serendipper » Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:26 am

My friend tried to describe the worst pain he had ever experienced when the doctor pulled that tube with the jagged filer on the end out of his belly after surgery. I have no concept and there's no way he can relay that information to me. It made me think of this thread. He said he'd rather break his own arm than go through that again. On second thought, I don't wanna know. :-?
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Re: Can we think without, thinking?

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Tue Mar 27, 2018 8:01 am

Serendipper wrote: On second thought, I don't wanna know. :-?
Then you know.
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Re: Can we think without, thinking?

Postby Serendipper » Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:12 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
Serendipper wrote: On second thought, I don't wanna know. :-?
Then you know.


:-k

Last fall I was riding an atv when I spotted a herd of deer, then I hit a tree which caused the handlebars to snap back as my body went forward and it was like being hit in the leg with a ball bat. Oh man that hurt and I couldn't do anything as the deer were running around me. I had to struggle just to reach the key to turn the machine off because the vibrations were killing me. The whole time I'm thinking "Damn why does hurt so bad if pain doesn't exist?"

There was a faith healer of Deal
Who said ‘though I know pain’s not real,
If I sit on a pin,
And it punctures my skin,
I dislike what I fancy I feel.
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Re: Can we think without, thinking?

Postby MagsJ » Tue Mar 27, 2018 10:53 pm

Dan~ wrote:Travel without moving.

..or like fighting without fighting. :P
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Re: Can we think without, thinking?

Postby WendyDarling » Wed Mar 28, 2018 12:00 am

Gloominary wrote:Are we able to understand reality without exactly thinking about, or labeling it in some way?

Yes, but not deeply, more akin to instinctual reactions.
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Re: Can we think without, thinking?

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:11 am

Serendipper wrote:
Karpel Tunnel wrote:
Serendipper wrote: On second thought, I don't wanna know. :-?
Then you know.


:-k

Last fall I was riding an atv when I spotted a herd of deer, then I hit a tree which caused the handlebars to snap back as my body went forward and it was like being hit in the leg with a ball bat. Oh man that hurt and I couldn't do anything as the deer were running around me. I had to struggle just to reach the key to turn the machine off because the vibrations were killing me. The whole time I'm thinking "Damn why does hurt so bad if pain doesn't exist?"

There was a faith healer of Deal
Who said ‘though I know pain’s not real,
If I sit on a pin,
And it punctures my skin,
I dislike what I fancy I feel.
Pain is real. It may not be X, but it is certainly Y.
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Re: Can we think without, thinking?

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:11 am

MagsJ wrote:
Dan~ wrote:Travel without moving.

..or like fighting without fighting. :P

Martin Luther King
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Re: Can we think without, thinking?

Postby Serendipper » Wed Mar 28, 2018 5:02 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:Pain is real. It may not be X, but it is certainly Y.

If pain is real, then what is it?
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Re: Can we think without, thinking?

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Wed Mar 28, 2018 5:11 pm

Serendipper wrote:
Karpel Tunnel wrote:Pain is real. It may not be X, but it is certainly Y.

If pain is real, then what is it?

If experience is not real, what basis do we have to say anything about anything? From my in situ life, pain is more real than any supposedly real object in the world. I know pain is real. I might be mistaken about things.
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Re: Can we think without, thinking?

Postby Serendipper » Wed Mar 28, 2018 5:42 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
Serendipper wrote:
Karpel Tunnel wrote:Pain is real. It may not be X, but it is certainly Y.

If pain is real, then what is it?

If experience is not real, what basis do we have to say anything about anything? From my in situ life, pain is more real than any supposedly real object in the world. I know pain is real. I might be mistaken about things.

Yes, true, experience is real, but why is experience viewed as painful? Is it not just perspective? Some people enjoy pain. Alan studied asceticism and talked a great deal about pain, but I haven't fully gotten my head around what he is suggesting. Somehow, I figure, pain threatens the self idea, so the less of a self we feel, the less pain we realize. It's hard to articulate what I do not understand lol. I suppose, obviously, if I'm riding an atv, then I'm enjoying my 'self' and therefore pain becomes real. If I were not separate from the atv, the deer, the woods, such that I could enjoy being so, then perhaps both the enjoyment and pain would fade as I cease to identify as a separate entity. Do you see what I'm trying to say?
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Re: Can we think without, thinking?

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Wed Mar 28, 2018 8:27 pm

Serendipper wrote:Yes, true, experience is real, but why is experience viewed as painful? Is it not just perspective? Some people enjoy pain.
They enjoy certain kinds of pain, pain in the context of their painfilled psyches which can lead to net gains, despite the unpleasant facets of the pain.

Alan studied asceticism and talked a great deal about pain, but I haven't fully gotten my head around what he is suggesting. Somehow, I figure, pain threatens the self idea, so the less of a self we feel, the less pain we realize. It's hard to articulate what I do not understand lol. I suppose, obviously, if I'm riding an atv, then I'm enjoying my 'self' and therefore pain becomes real. If I were not separate from the atv, the deer, the woods, such that I could enjoy being so, then perhaps both the enjoyment and pain would fade as I cease to identify as a separate entity. Do you see what I'm trying to say?
Yes, though there would still be pain, just it would be simply another phenomenon. It seems like in such a state one is not judging, but it is founded on judging the self, the emotions, desires.
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Re: Can we think without, thinking?

Postby Serendipper » Wed Mar 28, 2018 9:52 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:Yes, though there would still be pain, just it would be simply another phenomenon. It seems like in such a state one is not judging, but it is founded on judging the self, the emotions, desires.

Right, it's a self/other relationship. So if there is no self, there is no pain. I think that is what Alan is trying to bring together.

That's confused me about buddhism: if there is no one to suffer, why is the remedy for suffering to realize that there is no one to suffer?
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Re: Can we think without, thinking?

Postby MagsJ » Thu Mar 29, 2018 12:13 am

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
MagsJ wrote:
Dan~ wrote:Travel without moving.

..or like fighting without fighting. :P

Martin Luther King

What? No! Bruce Lee :D
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