Of Property

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Of Property

Postby Gloominary » Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:24 pm

Is there such a thing, and if so, where do we draw the line?

Is what's mine, mine, and what's yours, yours?
Or is what's mine yours, and what's yours mine?
Or is what's mine, mine, and what's yours mine, or the other way around?

Are children the slaves of their parents, or vice versa?
Are husbands/wives mutually enslaved?
Is the borrower a slave to the lender?
Is the prisoner a slave of the state...are we all slaves of the state?

Where does property come from, is it a social construct, or is it instinctive, like how some animals will mark their territory, or is there an absolute, objective, universal law that determines what, or who belongs to who?
Is it as simple as two and two equals four, that certain people own certain things, or is it arbitrary and complicated?

Myself I think property is almost entirely subjective.
If there's anything objective about it, it's this: animals will try to keep or take a thing they want from others, and have developed ways of warning others not to mess with what they have or want, like marking their territory or growling.
The stronger, slyer and also the luckier an animal is, and the more he wants a thing, the more likely he'll be able to keep or take it from another.

Manimals also mark their territory and growl, but occasionally we're a little more sophisticated about it, because we have language, we'll write our names on things, we'll warn people: private property, no trespassing!
We'll put fences, moats and walls around things, arm ourselves to the teeth or hire guards, but it's essentially the same behavior our furry fellows display.

But whether it's socially conditioned, or instinctive, or compassion we have for people, or a sense of fairness we have, we as individuals and a society have developed reasons for why we feel or think certain things belong to certain people, whether these people can keep or take them on their own, or whether they need help.
What are some of these things, how do we determine who or what belongs to whom?
Last edited by Gloominary on Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Of Property

Postby Gloominary » Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:40 pm

Property is more than just wanting something, it's about communication, letting others know you want it.
With humans it's a little more sophisticated, we let others know why we want it, or someone else to have it, most animals don't do this, most animals only care about what they want, the only communication that occurs between them is: I'm strong, and I'm prepared to fight for it, or I'm weak, I don't want it enough, you can have it.
More unsophisticated animals have no theory of mind, and so they take things reflexively, without any regard for whether there's someone else out there who wants it, and so they have no notion of property whatsoever.
Last edited by Gloominary on Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Of Property

Postby Gloominary » Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:56 pm

So what are the criteria we use to determine property?

Here's some of them:

Do they have it now, or did they have it at one time?
This is more of a duty ethics question.

If someone physically possesses or occupies something in the present, we're more likely to regard it as theirs.
If someone frequently physically possesses or occupies something, we're still more likely to regard it as theirs, but less than the above.
If someone has physically possessed or occupied something in the past, we're still more likely to regard it as theirs, but less than the above.

How did they come to acquire it?
This is also more of a duty ethics question.

If someone built something, exchanged something, received something, or found something, we're more likely to regard it as theirs.

But if someone took something from someone by force, fraud, unfairly or without their consent, we're more likely to regard it as not theirs.

What good can come from them having it?
This is more of a consequentialist question.

If someone can use something to fulfill our needs as an individual or a group, we're more likely to regard it as theirs.
If someone can use something to fulfill our desires as an individual or a group, we're still more likely to regard it as theirs, but less than the above.
If someone needs something, we're still more likely to, but less than the above.
If someone desires something, we're still more likely to, but less than the above.

How able and willing are they to fight and die for it?
This is more of a pragmatic question.

Who and what determines?
This is more of a psychosocial question.

The more the or a political or religious authority states x belongs to someone.
The more people state x belongs to someone (democracy).
The more social convention states x belongs to someone.
The more our feelings suggest x belongs to someone.
The more our thoughts suggest x belongs to someone.

Society uses all the above to determine what belongs to someone, but societies and individuals emphasize some of these reasons over others.
When one or more of these reasons are conflicting, people will go with what they believe is the lesser of two evils.
And of course people can be very selfish, are overtly, or more often than not covertly biased towards themselves and their ingroup.

So what about you or your society?
Which of the above do you or your society emphasize in determining property?
Or do you or they use something else to determine it?
Sometimes we play games to determine what belongs to who, like gambling.
Can you think of more things we use?
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Re: Of Property

Postby Zero_Sum » Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:54 am

Property is an extension or projection of the individual ego and sense of dominance.

I'm surprised that this thread was moved to the Sand Box as that is just plain ridiculous.
"The condition of man... is a condition of war of everyone against everyone."

"I put for the general inclination of all mankind, a perpetual and restless desire of power after power, that ceaseth only in death."

-Thomas Hobbes-


"History is a set of lies agreed upon." - Napoleon Bonaparte

“To judge from the notions expounded by theologians, one must conclude that God created most men simply with a view to crowding hell.”― Marquis de Sade

“Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.”
― Robert A. Heinlein


"Republicans are red and democrats are blue, neither political party gives a flying fuck about you." - Unknown Origin

“In the architecture of their life some may display Potemkin happiness in view of hiding the dark features of their fair weather relationship, preferring to set up a window dressing of fake satisfaction rather than being rejected as emotional outcasts." Erik Pevernagie
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Re: Of Property

Postby Gloominary » Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:14 am

Zero_Sum wrote:Property is an extension or projection of the individual ego and sense of dominance.

I'm surprised that this thread was moved to the Sand Box as that is just plain ridiculous.

Actually I posted this thread here and in SEG, because it wasn't getting any responses here, and it seemed like it belonged on both forums anyway.
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Re: Of Property

Postby Zero_Sum » Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:44 pm

Thomas Hobbes

“Whatever the result of a war where every man is enemy to every man, also a result of a time when men live without other security than what their own strength and their own capacity to invent their give. In such a state, there is no room for a strenuous activity, because the fruit thereof is uncertain: and consequently no culture of the earth, no navigation, no use of imported goods by sea, no building suitable for any device move or lift things as require much force, no knowledge of the earth’s surface, no measurement of time, no arts, no letters, no society, and, worst of all, constant fear, and danger of violent death and life of man is solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short”

The Leviathan rests on the idea that men can not agree because they are too suspicious. So you need a third to make them respect each other. The Leviathan is this third party, the force which binds the guardianship contractors.

To establish this transcendent political force, the men must surrender their natural liberty and the Leviathan and transfer the power of coercion and force. To what benefit? In exchange for their natural liberty, the Leviathan protects his subjects and their property.



https://www.the-philosophy.com/hobbes-m ... olf-to-man
"The condition of man... is a condition of war of everyone against everyone."

"I put for the general inclination of all mankind, a perpetual and restless desire of power after power, that ceaseth only in death."

-Thomas Hobbes-


"History is a set of lies agreed upon." - Napoleon Bonaparte

“To judge from the notions expounded by theologians, one must conclude that God created most men simply with a view to crowding hell.”― Marquis de Sade

“Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.”
― Robert A. Heinlein


"Republicans are red and democrats are blue, neither political party gives a flying fuck about you." - Unknown Origin

“In the architecture of their life some may display Potemkin happiness in view of hiding the dark features of their fair weather relationship, preferring to set up a window dressing of fake satisfaction rather than being rejected as emotional outcasts." Erik Pevernagie
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