the feeling of free will

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the feeling of free will

Postby demoralized » Tue May 16, 2017 8:55 am

Free will vs determinism

False choice, we know

In my opinion free will may not be real, perhaps an intention

at best, a feeling, I think

I question why someone once spoke the words "God gave us free will"

Sometimes I am given this feeling (of sufficiently in control, surprisingly not necessarily consistent with awareness). At other times, I am not given this feeling

I want to compare this to autonomy, an idea that, for some can be obtained - perhaps a masculine ideal, perhaps my innocence

I think free will is a feeling, and a blessing from God that we may be given at a time; not sure to what extent it is desired

I'd like to paint this at sexuality
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Re: the feeling of free will

Postby Magnus Anderson » Tue May 16, 2017 5:24 pm

Maybe you should try to define "free will" before asking whether it exists or not.
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Re: the feeling of free will

Postby demoralized » Tue May 16, 2017 11:05 pm

lets call an involuntary twitch of a finger a lack of free will
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Re: the feeling of free will

Postby Magnus Anderson » Wed May 17, 2017 1:20 am

That doesn't do the job. Must be more specific.
Step-by-step instructions, please.

We must be able to determine, and do so unambiguously, whether any given event is an expression of free-will or not.

Google says:
"the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate"

So, we can say, free-will is expressed in those actions that are not constrained by necessity or fate.

Okay.
But what is necessity or fate? And what does it mean for these to constrain actions?

Say we know of some event that is basically some human action say waving a hand. How do we determine whether this action is an expression of free-will or not? Okay, Google will say, by seeing whether it is constrained by fate or not. But what the fuck does that mean?

Tick, tock, tick, tock. Noone knows what the fuck we're talking about.

You see, in order for a concept to make any sense, it must already have some kind of reference point in experience. If this is not the case, the concept is meaningless. You can't even say it's a concept.

When you ask a question such as "does free-will exist?" you're admitting you have no clue what the term means. You're literally asking "is the concept of free-will well defined?"

Free-will is that which is expressed in "uncaused events" right?

Is that what it means? The idea that there are events that are not caused by any prior event.

But then we have to ask "what is a cause?"
So what is a cause?
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Re: the feeling of free will

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Wed May 17, 2017 10:37 am

Magnus Anderson wrote:But then we have to ask "what is a cause?"
So what is a cause?


MA ... kind of you to cut to the chaff.

I don't know ... with any degree of certainty ... that I don't know.

OTH I'm happy to share my thoughts concerning your question.

1) I wrote in another OP yesterday:
Our senses exist ... their sole purpose ... to support our preference for survival in this world. Of course, as survival became less and less of a challenge our senses took on an expanded role ... attempt to grow/expand consciousness. The senses are not designed or equipped for this purpose ... causing them to often take us down dead end streets.


2) Our DNA serves as a transmitter/receiver.

3) Our brain serves as the processor (CPU)

4) The bidirectional communication is likely embedded in EMP ... electromagnetic pulse.

5) Seems logical to assume all humans share the same capacities ... though ... exercising these human capacities seems to vary considerably from person to person.
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Re: the feeling of free will

Postby Mr Reasonable » Wed May 17, 2017 10:39 am

I like the one people do to defend free will that's more of an attack on determinism.

Like I'll say, "sure, determinism is totally true, and free will is false, so you should be able to predict which hand I'm about to raise".

Its as weak as any if the other discourse on this problem, but I like it because it forces one side to have to demonstrate something that they can't, and that they'd need to to fully demonstrate their position.
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Re: the feeling of free will

Postby Mr Reasonable » Wed May 17, 2017 10:40 am

Since I'm not free to choose which hand, and since the determinism advocate would be burdened with that proof, as soon as he can predict which hand, his case is made.
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Re: the feeling of free will

Postby gib » Wed May 17, 2017 6:46 pm

What we call free will is not the ability to defy the laws of nature, it is the state of being equipped with the ability to convert desires or intentions into actions that satisfy those desires or intentions. It is the state of being an animal molded by the forces of evolution; evolution saw to it that we would have brains that would produce these internal feelings of desire or having intentions, and that this state would result causally in the brain sending signals to the body to engage in actions that satisfy those desires or intentions. <-- This is what we call free will. Free will can easily be remove simply by snipping the nerves that lead from our brains to our bodily appendages. If you snip the nerves in the arm for example, any intention or desire you might have to raise your arm would become impossible to fulfill and you would say you no longer have free will to do so. We are just fortunate that evolution created us in this way, to be equipped to satisfy our desires and intentions on a whim.
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It is impossible for a human being to go through life not thinking irrationally even if they think of themselves as rational
Also just as irrational decisions are not always bad then rational ones are not always good no matter what the intention
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Re: the feeling of free will

Postby Magnus Anderson » Wed May 17, 2017 8:26 pm

You can think of any action as a sequence of events. Say A, B, C, D, E, F and G.

Desire and intention are simply two nearly interchangeable words that refer to the initial events of some action. In the above case, say A.

Thus, when A happens, but the rest of the events do not follow, we say we want, desire or intend for the entire sequence that is A-B-C-D-E-F-G to take place.

So how is this relevant?
Well, I don't think it is. Rather, it's just interesting.

Okay, you're saying free-will is simply the ability to do what you want to do. An expression of it would be, I assume, any action that is caused by one's brain. An expression of its lack would be any failed attempt by the brain to cause some action.
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Re: the feeling of free will

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Thu May 18, 2017 12:07 am

Exercising 'will' when one is in control of all or most of the variables is complex enough ... what about exercising one's 'will' when external events/conditions ... beyond one's control ... must be considered.
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Re: the feeling of free will

Postby gib » Thu May 18, 2017 3:32 am

Magnus Anderson wrote:Okay, you're saying free-will is simply the ability to do what you want to do. An expression of it would be, I assume, any action that is caused by one's brain. An expression of its lack would be any failed attempt by the brain to cause some action.


Yes, that's it more or less. There are a few more nuanced details, but that's the gist.
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It is impossible for a human being to go through life not thinking irrationally even if they think of themselves as rational
Also just as irrational decisions are not always bad then rational ones are not always good no matter what the intention
- surreptitious75

The rating of rationality can be higher and always is higher than the person trying to be rational. Rationality is less emotional than the person delivering it.
- encode_decode

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Re: the feeling of free will

Postby Magnus Anderson » Thu May 18, 2017 5:22 pm

How does that make it opposed to determinism?
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Re: the feeling of free will

Postby demoralized » Fri May 19, 2017 6:45 am

Magnus Anderson wrote:How does that make it opposed to determinism?


This begins to question the premise

there's the idea of free will, there's the idea of determinism

people can pick a side

people can choose a viewpoint that intends to reconcile the two (imo, more realistic)

people can try to imagine something not confined by said domain

I'm running with the idea that free will by itself is not the answer - not sure if a question need be supposed

i still think its a feeling
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Re: the feeling of free will

Postby Magnus Anderson » Fri May 19, 2017 1:31 pm

I think there are multiple definitions, and sometimes even non-definitions, of free-will. Some are compatible with determinism (Gib's for example) others aren't. I say, pick your definition, then we can talk.
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Re: the feeling of free will

Postby Magnus Anderson » Fri May 19, 2017 1:52 pm

What is a cause? An event that causes another event. But what does it mean for an event (cause) to cause another event (effect)?

Is this mysterious process of causation objective or subjective?

Is it something that we can directly observe to be occurring between the events or is it something that can only be inferred to be hiding behind the events, never to be observed directly?

What if causality is simply a fiction produced by our minds for the purpose of prediction?

What if only events are real?

What then does it mean to say that "the universe is determined" other than that "you can assign a degree of conditional probability to any ordered pair of events"?
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Re: the feeling of free will

Postby gib » Sat May 20, 2017 4:44 am

Magnus Anderson wrote:How does that make it opposed to determinism?


It doesn't. That's the point. It's a form of compatibilism.
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It is impossible for a human being to go through life not thinking irrationally even if they think of themselves as rational
Also just as irrational decisions are not always bad then rational ones are not always good no matter what the intention
- surreptitious75

The rating of rationality can be higher and always is higher than the person trying to be rational. Rationality is less emotional than the person delivering it.
- encode_decode

Is that a demon slug in your stomach or are you just happy to see me?
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Re: the feeling of free will

Postby Magnus Anderson » Mon May 22, 2017 5:00 pm

If you define free-will in the manner that you do then the question of free-will vs determinism does not even arise.

Look, it's not my fault that there are so many so-called "philosophers" who are confused over the issue.

You need to define your terms clearly.
I got a philosophy degree, I'm not upset that I can't find work as a philosopher. It was my decision, and I knew that it wasn't a money making degree, so I get money elsewhere.
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Re: the feeling of free will

Postby Exuberant Teleportation » Mon May 22, 2017 10:19 pm

The vast arena of life is so expansive, broad, mind opening, rattling and shaking the grip onslaught to venture or stray mothering shyness over the violation of edges freeing crossed frames of super imposed drapes covering and hoarding a house, so by planning the road through gloom raging ghosts pillars, breaking the shattering axis of eventuality, plotting dots and lines to chase sights way blown open and asunder from rumination, airing pin missiles of steal and liter-boxes of cars to imagine the engine or piston as an animal with four legs, walking on isles of free stadium boosters of brands impossible for failure, by covering all of our bases, we could better stretch chosen routes on an aurora of opportunity and possibility.

Being numb, in the bliss of the most desired sensations, drying off the blasted smoke of ice melting in a witch pot, and drawing out random solutions, we may find that fortune cookies were particularly insightful, could offer glimpses and pieces fast approaching in your life course, by putting enough faith in supernatural causes or tracing the branches of destiny, finding where they come from, how long they last, and spacing music of feeling to do what feels right, you can become the thin line itself of difficult, tense decision-making.
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