Take away the roads, then people cannot go there

Take away which roads? Take them away how?

It’s nice to know that the people stealing your stuff, beating you senseless and raping your kids … are really ‘good’ people.

If you take away roads, people just make new ones. It’s as simple as walking through bushes until a path naturally occurs. If it’s the wrong thing at the wrong time, doesn’t that make it at least partially right? And, if Murphy’s law is accurate and whatever can go wrong will go wrong, by process of elimination, therefore, whatever can go right will go right.

No, I think people should be vigilant against evil. None of Gods children are evil, they just get taken down evil roads, so be vigilant against that.

Ok so give me a percentage? [that sounds like 100% statement to me?] What approximate percentage of your route is manifest by ‘you’, and what of it is inherited, causal? I’d say 100% is inherited and causal, you sound like you are saying 100% of your path is manifest by you and not that?

Because I don’t rule the world, and my actions and reactions are wholly devised by my genes/society [they are 100% inherited by either means, no?]. The way we navigate/act/behave is pre-set, not to mention that you don’t know how you are going to act to some situations, not until you are in them - and then it is usually too late.

I am saying that a better society would be made by removing potential and the roads people are taken down. I think crime is entirely forced.
Not to mention there is a mathematical element; the LAPD use the mathematical formula for earthquake aftershocks to predict crime hotspots [which change but in a 70% predictable manner]. so now we need to ask; what and where are the earthquakes causing the aftershocks. Take a look at any area in the world, where people have a look upon their faces as if to say they have been through an earthquake, and there is our answer!

They would be if they had a different causality, no?
You take ordinary people e.g. in the Balkans conflict [or any really], and the situations turns minor conscious or subconscious dislike/distrust towards your former Neighbours, into overt hatred. Normal people get turned into psychopathic child killers.
Another example would be where the war in Syria was exasperated by the allies ‘accidentally’ letting masses of munitions get to ISIS militants, literally fuelling and prolonging the war. If our governments didn’t try to mess around with situations, opaquely to the ends whereby our ‘bad ones’ are attracted to join their brothers, ergo getting rid of them from our countries so we can just bomb the hell out of them. Then that evil situation would not have been as evil would it.

Such is an instance whereby we can change the road and manifest less evil simply by doing that. Another example would be where some police use entrapment techniques such that ‘criminals’ I.e. people largely of ethnic minorities, are given the opportunity to e.g. rob money from a placed car.

If you give people opportunity, and if you make them hate you, you are the ones building the roads.

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I love how most of the conversations held here on these forums are just piles of crap. The real conversations, people are too afraid to get involved in for whatever reason. Buncha pussies.

That was an ad hom attack, btw. No matter how truthful, they’ll claim it as ad hom. Go ahead, mods; tear me a new one again.

LOVE YOU!!!

Amor,

If everything is causal, then it is predetermined? No one has choices? That’s BS!

I don’t know how a soul gets placed in a body like whether or not the soul chooses their placement or if its assigned by God. Like I said, life is an obstacle course and YOU make the choices in its navigation.

I thought you are against outside interventions, laws, and societal meddling in general. If we remove (potential) their arms and legs, the crime rate would be virtually zero and a better society would be formed.

My choices are my responsibility and mine alone and no one is taking that freedom away from me ever. Others may deny their
responsibilities if they want but I am rigidly sticking to mine. I am too old to make excuses. I just deal in facts and regret now

It means that the choices are informed causally, you will choose what your brain determines and that includes info derived from the genes of the ancestors. I do think you can still choose, especially as there are so many options presented to the minds eye. In fact I think that is why consciousness exists, something has to make head nor tail of all that.
For me it is more the case that people stumble, the brain has evolved to survive and all that entails. When confronted with e.g. violent situations you don’t know how to deal with, we are ‘more likely’ to go by our instincts. If a lion charges at you, your instincts will override your consciousness until you get at a safe distance, hence people can make mistakes respectively.

Souls don’t get placed in bodies via divinity, nature gets what it needs where it needs. The soul is a natural entity and fluidic and infantile until learned.

Yes, but understanding and aversion is ok imho.

yes and no; In experiments it has been shown that given the choice to push a yellow or red button, that choice is made prior to conscious involvement. If you have time to think about how to react, then yes it is your choice, if you don’t get time and have to react instantly, you will most likely go by instinctive reactions.

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Is it possible that the overarching choice is made prior to conception?

James Hillman argues for this possibility in his book “The Soul’s Code … In Search of Calling and Character”

pilgrim wrote

May look into that further, but for us, souls, we choose…when and where exactly…is up for debate.

Wendy … I’m not pulling for Hillman … yet … it is a decent read … more philosophical than spiritual if I remember correctly.

nicely encaptioned … the debate reaches back into time immemorial and will stretch into the future (insert here)

Amorphos

For instance, what do you mean by “an alternate route”? A different kind of upbringing?
Anyway, you can’t really say that they “wouldn’t” - you can’t know this for sure.

What do you mean by this? That people who commit crimes are not necessarily “bad” people?
That would necessarily depend on the individual and the circumstances, don’t you think? unless you mean something different, amorphos.

There are the sociopaths and the psycopaths and the plain good people. Good people can become evil. The banality of evil…

Arc

We can know that path x,y,z, is different to path a,b,c, then that, given causality, if person k chooses route a [~b,c,], they will act differently to if they took route z [~x,y,].
Secondly we can know that each of us has tendencies which given the respective path will become e.g. addictions.

Thirdly we know that some things e.g. addiction, can be bad in extremes.

Each requires roads which one goes down.

If you could un-stitch their lives, one could observe the points at which they went down those paths, met those people etc etc. If they didn’t meet that gang or do that thing, then they would not do the things which followed on from that and hence would not become evil.

Apart from genetics everything are paths and learned things. …genes are made from historical paths trod.

Amorphos

We’re speaking of individuals here, Amorphos. We are not like sardines in a sardine can…all the same…that is, if all sardines in the same can, are actually the same. lol

Particular kinds of individuals WILL find a different road to go down or they will construct their own.
You may be able to take away a particular road but remember that gthat road may just be in the person. He will seek it elsewhere.

This may be possible but that would depend on certain things. Despite those things, they might still make the choice to go down that wrong road.
Things aren’t as simple as you’re portraying them.

But people who have “gone wrong” and made bad choices. People do not get a free pass out of jail because they are “not wrong people”.

There is no such thing as a good person or bad person as everyone is a moral agent capable of both good and bad where they have
free will. Even those who are predominately good or bad are not good or bad per se. Even if that is how they are usually regarded

What about those who are NOT capable of good?

I realize that any or most humans can be capable of both good or bad especially if they don’t realize that but do you really believe that there are not those who are only capable of bad?

One who has raped or murdered ten children? Don’t you kind of think that his capacity for good is nil? In what way is this person capable of good - where it can matter?

Is having the capacity to make a judgment call a wicked immoral thing?

surreptitious57 - I agree.

Arcturus

You seem to be taking a negative view of what I mean? I am talking about people being taken down tracks like causal trains, when that occurs they don’t really have choice. Like people born into poverty or a lower financial end of society, sometimes turn to crime for various reasons. Ergo my solution is to observe the reasons and the more you can get rid of the less potential for crime. Its simply looking at things in terms of an environment [e.g. of crime].

I know it is not simple, it means we need to improve the mobility levels of people all over the planet. Possibly the hardest task man can undertake. You know, one of those things like saving the planet.

For sure, but it is a philosophical consideration. In my mind there are line to cross, and degrees of guilt rather than it being black and white. Its like terrorism will be eventually defeated by working on it at the societal level. Nations increasingly want better security, but that wont happen unless wealth is spread more evenly.

Every human being who has free will and is of sound mind is capable of good and bad
No one is entirely good or entirely bad as this would invalidate the notion of free will

One bad act does not automatically invalidate all good acts. As long as someone has free will and is of sound mind they will do both good and bad. And so the severity of one bad act has zero bearing on this. So called bad people are capable of doing good and vice versa. It is not that so called bad people only do bad
and so called good people only do good. It is the actions that are good or bad rather than the people doing them. People themselves are neither good nor bad

So, the man who has raped and murdered ten children is neither good nor bad? Is that what you are saying here?

Maybe what I need is for you to tell me exactly what you mean by “People themselves are neither good nor bad”

What is the middle of the man who has raped and murdered 10 children.

What are you saying - that he is simply confused and that he actually has so much goodness within him? What is he saving it for?

Is it important to be so moral that we refuse to make judgment calls about heinous actions?

All arguments about good and bad whether they relate to actions or to the people that perpetrate them are basically fallacious because morality is not objective Therefore there is no objective means by which good and bad can be measured. Now I did say only actions are good or bad but this is a subjective interpretation
not an objective one. Morality can only ever be subjective or inter subjective. And means no moral action by definition can ever be defined as either objectively
true or objectively false other than from a subjective perspective