I currently don’t have a soul

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I currently don’t have a soul

Postby Amorphos » Sat Feb 25, 2017 1:08 am

I currently don’t have a soul

If the soul isn’t me what is it? Surely the soul is what we become in the afterlife. I & I, the same self, the same person, and not two persons where one is deep inside?
There is no deep inside me, as far as I can tell that’s all illusions or causal things.
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Re: I currently don’t have a soul

Postby Pandora » Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:46 am

You're a strange one.

My body is my "soul". I don't know all of it, or all levels of it, but that's how it's generated and stays alive. The soul's powerhouse is biological. After I die, there will no longer be 'my soul'.
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Re: I currently don’t have a soul

Postby demoralized » Sat Feb 25, 2017 1:52 pm

Yeah I went through this. I eventually got it back in the form of a KFC receipt. I think I threw it away, probably safer in the trash
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Re: I currently don’t have a soul

Postby Ultimate Philosophy 1001 » Sat Feb 25, 2017 3:50 pm

Feeling guilty after eating chickens?

Yes, since you ARE a soul, saying that "I have a soul" is a language discrepancy, the fault of the English language, but it means the same thing "I have a soul, means I am a soul."

Originally it was synonmyous to "I have a heart", implying souls and hearts were disconnected things, but since they seem to be intrinscically unified, turned into "I have a soul".
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Re: I currently don’t have a soul

Postby Amorphos » Sun Feb 26, 2017 12:47 am

My body is my "soul". I don't know all of it, or all levels of it, but that's how it's generated and stays alive. The soul's powerhouse is biological. After I die, there will no longer be 'my soul'.


That makes it a metaphor though, whereas here I am saying; if there is such a thing as a soul, then it is you - that’s all. Ergo it doesn’t exist if at all, its not until after the body has died. ...but is you now still - like UP1001 said ^^

incorrect wrote:Yeah I went through this. I eventually got it back in the form of a KFC receipt. I think I threw it away, probably safer in the trash


I am not going through an emotional period of thinking myself soulless, merely stating the philosophical proposition that the soul is me after the death of my body. So I do have one in all-time, just not until I am made.
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Re: I currently don’t have a soul

Postby Arcturus Descending » Sat Mar 11, 2017 7:06 pm

Amorphos wrote:I currently don’t have a soul

If the soul isn’t me what is it? Surely the soul is what we become in the afterlife. I & I, the same self, the same person, and not two persons where one is deep inside?
There is no deep inside me, as far as I can tell that’s all illusions or causal things.


So, what are you saying here? That there is nothing which moves you, touches you, makes your heart want to leap up into your throat?
No starry night? No moon glow, no sound of Chopin or Pucchini, no slow sensual jazz, rushing of the sea and sound of the surf, no wonderful book which you insist on keeping by your bedside? No movie which rings you inside out, causes you pain and anguish and at the same time inspires and thrills you? Nothing which draws you to your knees in worship?

If not, truly you do not have a soul, Amorphous.
If you don't experience it here, you won't there. Probably will not experience it there, especially if we cannot take our brains with us.

We need to give our so-called souls sunshine and rain, wind and fire, moonlight and darkness, dances under the waterfalls, kisses and caresses and more for them to develop and become transformed.

Get to know them and embrace them before we die. How can we know what follows, if anything at all?
SAPERE AUDE!


If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped.


What we take ourselves to be doing when we think about what is the case or how we should act is something that cannot be reconciled with a reductive naturalism, for reasons distinct from those that entail the irreducibility of consciousness. It is not merely the subjectivity of thought but its capacity to transcend subjectivity and to discover what is objectively the case that presents a problem....Thought and reasoning are correct or incorrect in virtue of something independent of the thinker's beliefs, and even independent of the community of thinkers to which he belongs.

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Re: I currently don’t have a soul

Postby Amorphos » Sat Mar 11, 2017 8:55 pm

So, what are you saying here? That there is nothing which moves you, touches you, makes your heart want to leap up into your throat?


I didn't mean that at all, what I am saying is that in the afterlife 'that which moves' will be in/from my soul and that will be me. Ok, so prior to that it is something within me as I am now; there is no other being inside but my own being. Imagine that the being you are now could like putty be reshaped into the soul - that kinda thing. In other words, its the same.
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Re: I currently don’t have a soul

Postby Meno_ » Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:02 pm

Or, may be, the soul is something that shaped you, while what is shaped is transitory. Both are the same, but they present differently like patterns which reappear depending on the point of view.

One is formative, the other its form. They do not exist in time, they transcend time. The transcendence results in an imminent existence.
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Re: I currently don’t have a soul

Postby Amorphos » Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:18 am

Or, may be, the soul is something that shaped you


Ok, except that which is causal and/or situational. So everything existent then. At most this soul which shapes you, is external and on the periphery.
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Re: I currently don’t have a soul

Postby Meno_ » Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:28 am

External and internal like a Moebius
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Re: I currently don’t have a soul

Postby Amorphos » Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:41 am

External and internal like a Moebius


Fair point. The way I see it is that no information is outside a system, so existent information is all that exists in existence. So a kind of info deriving from the purported ‘soul’, wont literally be physical info. Ergo I’d conclude it would have to be mirror-like, which in turn means it is always interpretative.

If that soul is not me ~ the conscious existent entity, then how can it be what I am when it is clearly on the outside [of existence]?
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Re: I currently don’t have a soul

Postby James S Saint » Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:54 am

Your soul is the definition of what you are, your identity. That definition is eternal, whether you or anyone ever knows it of or not.

Or are you claiming that you are exactly identical to all other things?
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Re: I currently don’t have a soul

Postby Meno_ » Wed Mar 15, 2017 3:58 pm

I don't think that's what he is claiming. And yet, that is exactly what he may be. The identity is not necessarily pre-set, or pre-formed in the outer space or even the inner space. It is formed in the manner that's beyond description as an interplay, of some sort of functional derivation of many variables, where there is a mirroring effect going on between them. This may not exclude any definite form of relation, e.g. that of an optical effect, but it may have other relationship effects. The identifiable aspects may also interact as well effectively, or, contrarily block or sublimate one in favor of another.

This may be a reason why some claim that underneath a less then exceptional body there may lie an astounding soul, more often then not. The valuing-developing-forming self, can shift relevant value toward the inner formative processes, investing far less into the apparently obvious external sense of apprehension.
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Re: I currently don’t have a soul

Postby Meno_ » Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:35 pm

But the main impetus of having a soul, is, a consequitive sequence of integrative elements, where, such create signs of transformative milestones. These are like very deeply cuts, as in certain castaways, who mark a daily progression of events, by cutting wedges into stone, or trees. They have no clock, or calendar to go by, because, they were wrecked, so these signs have deep and lasting staying power to mark the passage of time. Time, therefore is really the distance between two marks, standing for events.
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Re: I currently don’t have a soul

Postby Meno_ » Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:55 pm

The depth of the cut, signals the importance of the designated event, and real deep cuts are not erased by intergenerational paasage. They are sustained in a large mirror which conforms to the gross changes, as would in a hall of mirrors at an amusement center. They adapt to gross changes, and modify them to lessen distortion.

The mirror of the soul is not an inert, flat plane, but it is a complex , functional, living one, asepting and reacting, so as, not to totally kick a pre existing plane of reflection out of kilter. This plane, having large markers coming up from who knows where, or what historical period, works hard to simulate the present, existing soul, while at the same time, try to retain some modicum of authenticity.

The main idea of psychic survival depends on the adept capacity to refer to these markers, and further, not to nihilize totally by denial the prior existence of them. Referentiality is the key of overcoming, overcoming by leaps, those parts that have been omitted or, forgotten, by convenience. Referentiality, like a genological key, does overcome the loss of power , by a relaxation of the will to recover the lost elements of the soul.

The parts which are lost, will still have being on some 'outside' periphery, of existence, and it is at that vantage point that the tangent will appear as unsubstantial. It is within conscience and without. It is there where the forces will seem to neutralize each other.

That is why, that leaving the soul in that limbo, that bardo, of which the Tibetan Book of the Dead goes into great detail, has to be overcome, pushing it with strong force from the outer to the inner sphere.

It can be done, demonstratively, it works. What follows is a tremendous sense of liberation. But as soon as someone says 'I found out, Eureka', they immediately loose it. In order to keep it, it must constantly be used, as a tool, even at the cost of obsession. It only 'is', if and only if, it is engaged with it. It can be one or the other, or one masquerading as the other, not necessarily to deceive, but forced into the other sphere by the pure forms of mechanics of
existential content. These are the forms of pure understanding.
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Re: I currently don’t have a soul

Postby Amorphos » Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:07 am

James S Saint wrote:Your soul is the definition of what you are, your identity. That definition is eternal, whether you or anyone ever knows it of or not.

Or are you claiming that you are exactly identical to all other things?


no. if the soul is me now and not something hidden or behind the scenes, then that is what I am saying.

jerkey, if there is something behind the scenes, it has little effect compared to causal things, but I think it may have a cumulative effect such that we grow into ourselves, so to speak.
I prefer to think we are at first a blank template, and there is nothing deciding who we are or what we become. for me that's a better freedom of the soul; everyone gets a random body and mind, and that is the instrument of development. that's the only way to get equal chances overall imho.
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Re: I currently don’t have a soul

Postby Kathrina » Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:33 pm

Amorphos wrote:I currently don’t have a soul

Everyone should always have a soul.

Amorphos wrote:If the soul isn’t me what is it? Surely the soul is what we become in the afterlife. I & I, the same self, the same person, and not two persons where one is deep inside?
There is no deep inside me, as far as I can tell that’s all illusions or causal things.

What is a "soul" to you then?
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Re: I currently don’t have a soul

Postby Amorphos » Sun Mar 19, 2017 6:40 am

Kathrina wrote:
Amorphos wrote:I currently don’t have a soul

Everyone should always have a soul.

Amorphos wrote:If the soul isn’t me what is it? Surely the soul is what we become in the afterlife. I & I, the same self, the same person, and not two persons where one is deep inside?
There is no deep inside me, as far as I can tell that’s all illusions or causal things.

What is a "soul" to you then?


it is me /my form or body and mind in the afterlife, but it isn't something else which is not me but is commanding me from the inside - is what I am saying.

welcome to ilp btw
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Re: I currently don’t have a soul

Postby Kathrina » Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:13 am

Amorphos wrote:
Kathrina wrote:
Amorphos wrote:I currently don’t have a soul

Everyone should always have a soul.

Amorphos wrote:If the soul isn’t me what is it? Surely the soul is what we become in the afterlife. I & I, the same self, the same person, and not two persons where one is deep inside?
There is no deep inside me, as far as I can tell that’s all illusions or causal things.

What is a "soul" to you then?


it is me /my form or body and mind in the afterlife, but it isn't something else which is not me but is commanding me from the inside - is what I am saying.

Ah, I see.

Amorphos wrote:welcome to ilp btw

Thank you. :)
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Re: I currently don’t have a soul

Postby gib » Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:13 pm

Amorphos wrote:I currently don’t have a soul


Sorry to hear that. Hope you get it back someday.

Amorphos wrote:If the soul isn’t me what is it? Surely the soul is what we become in the afterlife. I & I, the same self, the same person, and not two persons where one is deep inside?
There is no deep inside me, as far as I can tell that’s all illusions or causal things.


Taking this to it's logical conclusion, it means that the self is the soul.

But what do you mean there is no deep inside you? Not even an unconscious level to your being?
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Re: I currently don’t have a soul

Postby Alf » Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:45 pm

gib wrote:
Amorphos wrote:I currently don’t have a soul

Sorry to hear that. Hope you get it back someday.

I hope so too.
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Re: I currently don’t have a soul

Postby Arcturus Descending » Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:45 pm

Ultimate Philosophy 1001 wrote:Feeling guilty after eating chickens?

Yes, since you ARE a soul, saying that "I have a soul" is a language discrepancy, the fault of the English language, but it means the same thing "I have a soul, means I am a soul."

Originally it was synonmyous to "I have a heart", implying souls and hearts were disconnected things, but since they seem to be intrinscically unified, turned into "I have a soul".


I personally do not see us as souls. We are human beings. It's possible that there is a part of the brain where what we consider to be a "soul" ~ that affects and influences us ~ resides. Brain chemicals, emotions - beautiful imagery, beautiful music ~ they all go into animating a deeper part of us which feels like a soul.

But whether there actually IS a soul which resides somewhere in the brain or without, we can't actually know.
If there is no life after death, we still have nothing to worry about since the moment after will be nothing but oblivion. What this can do though is allow us to be aware of loving those who we love, being grateful for them, showing them this and living every moment we have in the best way we have.

Aha!!!!
SAPERE AUDE!


If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped.


What we take ourselves to be doing when we think about what is the case or how we should act is something that cannot be reconciled with a reductive naturalism, for reasons distinct from those that entail the irreducibility of consciousness. It is not merely the subjectivity of thought but its capacity to transcend subjectivity and to discover what is objectively the case that presents a problem....Thought and reasoning are correct or incorrect in virtue of something independent of the thinker's beliefs, and even independent of the community of thinkers to which he belongs.

Thomas Nagel


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Re: I currently don’t have a soul

Postby gib » Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:31 pm

I've thought about this over the last several days and I have come to this conclusion:

There are two ways that we come to identify the self--

1) Looking in the mirror. When I look in the mirror, the person I see is "me". <-- That's how I identify myself. So I am, at least, my body.

2) OBE thought experiment. <-- This is the one Descartes proposed. He imagined himself without a body and found that in the thought experiment, he still felt like he was himself. This suggests that the way we understand the "self" doesn't depend on being in a body (you can imagine the contents of your brain being transferred to a machine and you would still identify yourself as "you" except in a different body).

Which is the true self?

^ This is a difficult question to answer, but it would seem that if the "soul" is the inner self, the self not requiring a body, then you lose a part of yourself after death. It's funny because, in the OBE thought experiment, it doesn't seem like it would feel like you've lost a part of yourself--you'd feel like you are still your whole self--but instead you've lost an "appendage". So it's weird. You'd feel like your whole self, but really you'd only be half yourself. But then again, wouldn't you just stop identifying yourself with your former body? And then you would be your whole self?

idunno. Requires more thought.
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It is impossible for a human being to go through life not thinking irrationally even if they think of themselves as rational
Also just as irrational decisions are not always bad then rational ones are not always good no matter what the intention
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Re: I currently don’t have a soul

Postby Ierrellus » Wed Apr 05, 2017 3:35 pm

Take two sugar cubes laced with LSD, then call me in the morning.
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Re: I currently don’t have a soul

Postby Amorphos » Thu Apr 06, 2017 3:14 am

Gib

1) Looking in the mirror. When I look in the mirror, the person I see is "me". <-- That's how I identify myself. So I am, at least, my body.

2) OBE thought experiment. <-- This is the one Descartes proposed. He imagined himself without a body and found that in the thought experiment, he still felt like he was himself. This suggests that the way we understand the "self" doesn't depend on being in a body (you can imagine the contents of your brain being transferred to a machine and you would still identify yourself as "you" except in a different body).


If 2 then not 1 though... If you were say a brain in a vat with bluetooth connectivity to any number of bodies, as in scenario 2, the identifiers would become utterly mutable. ...like nothing to identify the reflection with.
Descartes was imagining himself ~ with his brain! I couldn’t possibly imagine thought, awareness or consciousness without a brain to do it with. Out of body should include out of brain - seeing as the brain is a biological functioning part of the body.

The self has interchanging parts and facets, but I do think there is one thing there doing the inheriting. At the worst extreme there would be a total memory wipe at death, but what everything means [like you said before] is in that emptiness. In a way I wouldn’t mind to forget everything and be reborn - but in the otherworld and not here tho lol. ‘you’ are then, the product, the world is the machine which shaped it, your total experience denotes who you are. - kind of blue print for a machine to 3D build the form.

Could we say; you caste your own shape with experience, but it is the whole of that which is who you are? Food for thought I hope.
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