who are you?

Half-formed posts, inchoate philosophies, and the germs of deep thought.

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Re: who are you?

Postby phyllo » Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:54 pm

Jesus and Buddha are "outsiders".
"Only the educated are free" - Epictetus
"Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy" -Beethoven
"Everyday life is the way" -Wumen
"Do not permit the events of your daily life to bind you, but never withdraw yourself from them" - Wumen
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Re: who are you?

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:59 pm

phyllo wrote:The Borg are not alienated from society. The Borg are a collective consciousness.

Here is another thought : If society is crazy, then being alienated from society is a good thing.


while the notion of a "collective consciousness" isn't new ... reading Karen Armstrong's book "The Great Transformation" suggests it's been around for a long while ... albeit in more abstract forms. For me ... Teillard put some meat on the bones with his Noosphere and Omega Point theories.

for me ... society isn't crazy ... society is in a continuous transformation ... and the transformation process is frustrating and painful ... always has been ... lots of empirical evidence suggested in Armstrong's book.
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Re: who are you?

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:03 am

phyllo wrote:Jesus and Buddha are "outsiders".


... not sure I would use the word "outsiders".

reminds me of a comment made by a brilliant young man in Santiago Compostella many years ago ... we met by chance after walking the Camino.

He said ... paraphrasing ... perhaps Jesus is the first human with a conscious recollection of where he came from.
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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Re: who are you?

Postby phyllo » Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:16 am

... not sure I would use the word "outsiders".
How would you describe their relationship to society?
"Only the educated are free" - Epictetus
"Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy" -Beethoven
"Everyday life is the way" -Wumen
"Do not permit the events of your daily life to bind you, but never withdraw yourself from them" - Wumen
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Re: who are you?

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:27 am

phyllo wrote:
... not sure I would use the word "outsiders".
How would you describe their relationship to society?


... in a word "helpers" ... maybe ... "facilitators"
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Re: who are you?

Postby humunculus » Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:36 am

Peter Kropotkin wrote:so to return to the question of, Who are you?

the second part of this equation and it is an equation, is this.....
if we are unclear as to, who we are, then how can we
understand our place in society and our place in the universe......

Who says each individual human has a particular "place" in either [a, presumably human] society or the universe?
How is this "place" defined or described?
I was going to connect this idea of not knowing who we are with
the idea that because we don't know who we are, our society seems
to be disconnected from us because we don't know who we

Do we know what society is? Because if we don't know what society is then knowing who we are won't get us any closer to finding a place in society. And if society isn't an aggregate of all the people in it who are both products ad producers of society, then what is it? And how can you be disconnected from something of which you are an integral part?
the real reason society seem disconnected or as Marx put it, alienated
is because we don't know who we are)..

Society isn't disconnected. It's intricately connected in thousands of ways through millions of relationships.
An individual may feel isolated from society when he is disenfranchised, barred from participation in, and information about, the controlling processes of that society; when he does not see the fruit of his labour nor share in the reward of his efforts.
the so called failure of society lies
with us and not in society....

Societies have many different reasons for failing - most frequently bad leadership.
and this is what causing the discontentment and anguish within society

No; it's mostly that people are insecure in their income, health and living conditions.

You keep repeating this mantra: We don't know who we are. Where did you get this fixed idea? What makes you think it's true? What are the proportions of those who know all about themselves, to those who know nothing at all, to those who know 10%, 40%, 83.5% ... ?
The only thing people defend more fiercely than their illusion is their denial.
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Re: who are you?

Postby WendyDarling » Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:37 am

Facilitators hits the right spot in me. :D
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!


Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: who are you?

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:38 am

one might argue that the evolution of the human species is one long continuous journey ... destination unknown.
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Re: who are you?

Postby humunculus » Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:53 am

pilgrim_tom wrote:one might argue that the evolution of the human species is one long continuous journey ... destination unknown.

One might also use that metaphor for life, a romantic relationship, enrollment in a college course, a regimen of treatment for chronic illness, a cooking contest or hitchhiking.
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Re: who are you?

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Wed Feb 08, 2017 1:05 am

humunculus wrote:
pilgrim_tom wrote:one might argue that the evolution of the human species is one long continuous journey ... destination unknown.

One might also use that metaphor for life, a romantic relationship, enrollment in a college course, a regimen of treatment for chronic illness, a cooking contest or hitchhiking.


H. ... for me ... your comment suggests we are on the same page. :)

the kicker is ... life is simply too short to connect the dots in one lifetime.
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Re: who are you?

Postby Ultimate Philosophy 1001 » Wed Feb 08, 2017 5:42 pm

I am love itself.
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Re: who are you?

Postby Ierrellus » Thu Feb 09, 2017 2:25 pm

The second I tell you who I think I am I will be something other than that.
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Re: who are you?

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Fri Feb 10, 2017 1:09 am

Ierrellus wrote:The second I tell you who I think I am I will be something other than that.


Such wisdom Ierrellus!

Are you suggesting K. add one word to his question ... "Who are you becoming?"

7 billion+ people in constant flux ... hmmm!

Let's look at a simple example in our physical world. Gestation In our species ... from a single cell to birth ... generally takes about 9 months ... from birth to death 75-80 years.

Seems to me the scope of the constant state of flux you imply in your comment stretches beyond our physical reality ... ???

The gestation period for non-physical "being" may be much longer ... perhaps supporting the notion of reincarnation.
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Re: who are you?

Postby Xunzian » Fri Feb 10, 2017 9:58 am

I'm a gestalt entity created by my relationships reaching back before I was born and reaching to infinity.

I'm also awesome.
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Re: who are you?

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Sat Feb 11, 2017 1:44 am

Xunzian wrote:I'm a gestalt entity created by my relationships reaching back before I was born and reaching to infinity.


Awesome comment!

Reminds me of a comment a middle aged Chinese woman made during a discussion on the topic of ... "when does life start?"

She said ... "my life started when my mom met my dad."

OTH ... the same topic being discussed with a different group of Chinese people ... a young woman replied ... my life started two weeks ago when I defied my parents and married my husband.

????
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Re: who are you?

Postby Xunzian » Sat Feb 11, 2017 4:16 am

There is no contradiction. The creation and sundering of relationships are what define us. Individuating (especially from parents) is an important psychological milestone. However, radical individualism is an empty promise. Life is a radical process of becoming. Becoming is violent, so it'd be naive to think that the interplay between ontological being and existential becoming would be easily understood or even non-contradictory.
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Re: who are you?

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Sat Feb 11, 2017 9:04 am

Xunzian wrote:There is no contradiction. The creation and sundering of relationships are what define us. Individuating (especially from parents) is an important psychological milestone. However, radical individualism is an empty promise. Life is a radical process of becoming. Becoming is violent, so it'd be naive to think that the interplay between ontological being and existential becoming would be easily understood or even non-contradictory.


Eloquently stated ... maybe I even understand it :-)

true for the individual and his/her growing/shrinking community ... true for the species with it's growing/shrinking communities?
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Re: who are you?

Postby Xunzian » Sun Feb 12, 2017 10:08 am

I know nothing of species. That's broader than my philosophy.

But if you view the individual as a rubber band. you'll agree there are stretched and relaxed states that exist.
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Re: who are you?

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Sun Feb 12, 2017 11:54 am

Xunzian wrote:I know nothing of species. That's broader than my philosophy.


If one considers the human species simply as an aggregate of individuals ... surely some of your philosophy concerning individuals would have relevance to the species as a whole.

Xunzian wrote:But if you view the individual as a rubber band. you'll agree there are stretched and relaxed states that exist.


absolutely agree ... might even add one more 'state' ... snapped as in stretched too much. :-)
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Re: who are you?

Postby Arcturus Descending » Tue Feb 21, 2017 6:31 pm

a creature always going in search of the many (herself).
SAPERE AUDE!


You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your INFORMED opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.”
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Re: who are you?

Postby Arcturus Descending » Tue Feb 21, 2017 7:16 pm

pilgrim_tom wrote:
phyllo wrote:Jesus and Buddha are "outsiders".


... not sure I would use the word "outsiders".

reminds me of a comment made by a brilliant young man in Santiago Compostella many years ago ... we met by chance after walking the Camino.

He said ... paraphrasing ... perhaps Jesus is the first human with a conscious recollection of where he came from.


I think we're all capable of having that conscious recollection of where we come from. We just need to reflect on it, ask questions, observe the world, read...

Jesus actually had to grow into his own CR of where he came from, if I am not mistaken, just like the rest of us do. After all, he was part human. I doubt if he was born knowing just who he was. It might have taken most of the 30 years before his mission/his journey began.
Putting a label on someone doesn't actually define the 'reality" of that person and his/her essence...or mission.

Christ was very often an outsider except for those who loved and embraced him. He was also a radical.

Both Christ and Buddha might be defined as pathways or beacons or (insert here).
SAPERE AUDE!


You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your INFORMED opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.”
Harlan Ellison

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Re: who are you?

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Wed Feb 22, 2017 1:51 am

Arcturus Descending wrote:I think we're all capable of having that conscious recollection of where we come from. We just need to reflect on it, ask questions, observe the world, read...


AD ... for me ... such inspirational thoughts that seem to synthesize so much of what has been posted on this OP and elsewhere.

Let me add Confucius to your short list ... apparently he understood his personal "Mandate from Heaven" ... 天命 ... Tiānmìng ... at age 50.

The title of this OP points to this phenomenon ... as I mentioned in a previous post ...

Are you suggesting K. add one word to his question ... "Who are you becoming?"


This notion of 'becoming' ... perhaps is what Socrates meant when he said ... "the (un)examined life is not worth living"

The question arises ... how do we "see" who we are becoming?

Read this paragraph this morning ... seems relevant ...

"Sometimes you can see a whole lot of things just by looking. That’s one of Yogi Berra’s infamous aphorisms. It’s a clever expression of course, but, sadly, perhaps mostly, the opposite is truer. Mostly we do a whole lot of looking without really seeing much. Seeing implies more than having good eyesight. Our eyes can be wide open and we can be seeing very little."
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Re: who are you?

Postby Ierrellus » Thu Feb 23, 2017 2:24 pm

There are three stages of becoming: individuation, metamorphosis (change) and synthesis (of old and new changes). The stages suggest the was, are and will be of biological entities.
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Re: who are you?

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:20 am

Ierrellus wrote:There are three stages of becoming: individuation, metamorphosis (change) and synthesis (of old and new changes). The stages suggest the was, are and will be of biological entities.


Ierrellus ... while your posts recently are few in number ... for me ... they have been real "gems"

Let me share my gut reaction to your above post.

Individuation ... the Geula labels this the "exile" ... the expulsion from the Garden of Eden.

Metamorphosis ... the million ... billion ... pick a number ... years of human history all for the one purpose ... metamorphosis.

Synthesis ... the Geula labels this "redemption" ... spirit and flesh unite in harmony ... the return to the Garden of Eden ... may take another million ... billion ... pick a number ... of years. Than again ... may happen next week. :-)
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Re: who are you?

Postby Ierrellus » Fri Feb 24, 2017 2:33 pm

Thanks Tom. Most of my philosophy is based on three human trinities:
Body, Mind, Soul
Being, Becoming, Belonging
Individuation, metamorphosis, synthesis
Within these parameters of experience one can describe where one is by what one is doing.
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