## New Moon Ashes

Half-formed posts, inchoate philosophies, and the germs of deep thought.

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### New Moon Ashes

naturalworldorder.... What is naturalworldorder? A dream. A gobbo's dream. A dream that Hitler just sort of... wasn't the man for the job.

As shamanic consierges of the world, we at Before The Light desided to aid and abet him and his weird friend for some of the most earnest, fascinating and far-reaching musings on the internet.

The rest, as they say, is ashes...

p

Argument for private property [Aristotle]
" Property should be in a certain sense common, but, as a general rule, private; for, when everyone has a distinct interest, men will not complain of one another, and they will make more progress, because every one will be attending to his own business... And further, there is the greatest pleasure in doing a kindness or service to friends or guests or companions, which can only be rendered when a man has private property. These advantages are lost by excessive unification of the state. " [Aristotle, Politics, book II part V]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_...#Aristotle
http://socserv.mcmaster.ca/econ/ugcm/3ll...litics.pdf
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12-29-2012, 03:08 AM Post: #2
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RE: Argument for pivate property [Aristotle]
I agree this is profound.

I will have to think on why.
"I said I was going to get to your calls but...look."
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12-30-2012, 12:27 AM (This post was last modified: 12-30-2012 12:27 AM by Dannerz.) Post: #3
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RE: Argument for pivate property [Aristotle]
In my astral travels I feel I have seen many types of economies and governments.

So from what I've seen, I conclude that everyone at birth should be granted a small portion of free personal property. Then when they are older, they can get the means to being productive. This should be free, because it is the means of productivity, which is what is needed for a strong economy. Some types of things should be allowed to be owned on a large scale by a owner, but other things should not be monopolized or ever owned in a large quantity by an individual owner. Each society should have a sense of love and fairness. It is easier to treat corruption with love than it is to attack it like a disease and use a militant system. The militant system will become corrupt itself, often. Not every race is exceptionally loving, but in place of love, honor is also good. Honor can replace love in the races which cannot feel much love.

It is ok to own large amounts of something which you can use entirely, but it is bad when someone has more than they truly need, or when they own what many need, then use this to the disadvantage of the group.

@ Excessive unification of the state.
I believe we are meant to be city states, and tribes. This is what we are naturally meant to be, and the means to an over unified state and system misses the personalization that society needs.
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01-02-2013, 06:25 PM Post: #4
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RE: Argument for pivate property [Aristotle]
Like so many arguments for private property, this is just a rich guy trying to consolidate his position. Freedom and private property for the view, subsidised by slavery for the rest. That was the world Aristotle lived in and is defending here.

It is an abominable argument, not just untrue but thoroughly deceitful and immoral.
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01-04-2013, 04:46 PM (This post was last modified: 01-04-2013 04:48 PM by JSS.) Post: #5
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RE: Argument for pivate property [Aristotle]
(12-30-2012 12:27 AM)Dannerz Wrote:
I believe we are meant to be city states, and tribes. This is what we are naturally meant to be
I believe that to be a rationally provable fact, not merely a proposition or assumption.
..{{what else to expect from Aristotle}}
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01-04-2013, 10:25 PM Post: #6
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RE: Argument for pivate property [Aristotle]
I agree we were meant to live in locally sustainable 'tribes'
"I said I was going to get to your calls but...look."
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01-04-2013, 10:26 PM Post: #7
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RE: Argument for pivate property [Aristotle]
But then I also embrace globalism.

Not the NWO version, but I want us all to be in an internet cool zone.
"I said I was going to get to your calls but...look."
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01-05-2013, 06:41 AM (This post was last modified: 01-05-2013 06:42 AM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #8
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RE: Argument for pivate property [Aristotle]
Tom, I think that is a deeply shallow judgment of Aristotle. It also seems illogical from a psychological point of view. What reason would the guy have had to operate like that, if he was already rich and powerful in the first place? He was under no threat from poor people trying to take his possessions. Besides, poor people could not read what he had to say.

I don't like movements that make claims to everything on account of a so called common good. I prefer privates who make claims to certain things on account of their own good. A matter of honesty - they don't pretend to speak for me.
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01-05-2013, 06:44 AM (This post was last modified: 01-05-2013 06:47 AM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #9
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RE: Argument for pivate property [Aristotle]
Does nature 'mean' for us to be anything other than it has caused us to be? That does not seem true. I will believe that some people mean for us to be tribes, like Dan and James. Maybe I could get behind the idea that many people will be happy like that. I don't think that I would be happy personally, being restricted to a tribe, as I like to travel and live in different worlds.

Also, the atomic bomb has made the idea of autonomous city-states obsolete. We are forced to consider a world order, even if it is a non-singular one, where different superpowers live in strained balance.
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01-05-2013, 06:46 AM Post: #10
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RE: Argument for pivate property [Aristotle]
To elaborate on my previous statement: I understand that a lot of the stuff that gets done in the world gets done because of people's desire to improve their lives, often in material ways. But I do not accept the capitalist argument that this is human nature, or that this is all there is to human nature and that this is how all work gets done, how all improvements to life are motivated.

For one thing, it's because I know it isn't true. I know that other things get done for other reasons, that human nature is multiform. I know that I am not solely motivated by that. For another thing, look at Bill Gates and the like - they are clearly motivated by things beyond money, because they have more money than ordinary people could ever dream of, they could accomplish any material improvement in their lives that they might desire, except perhaps immortality (and they are seeing about that, or trying to).

The best property model I know of is the one used in, among other places, the crofting communities of Scotland. There, the best land was privatised, but within quite sane limits so you couldn't just turn up and build a fence around more than a few acres for your private croft. The rest of the land was common, for mutual grazing and gathering and whatever. It's great. I live in Yorkshire, where it is gorgeous but there's a fence or hedge around almost everything. There are a lot of centuries-old public rights of way though, which override the right to private property to a certain extent along specific routes over the fields. But up in much of Scotland there are lots of little individual private houses with a bit of land fenced up around them, and lots of open space populated by random sheep. They sleep on the roads at night because it's warmer so you have to be a bit careful, but if the Occupy movement means anything then I think it means that the notion of common property, or simply land that doesn't belong to anyone, remains an important one.

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RE: Argument for pivate property [Aristotle]
(01-05-2013 06:41 AM)Fixed Cross Wrote:
Tom, I think that is a deeply shallow judgment of Aristotle. It also seems illogical from a psychological point of view. What reason would the guy have had to operate like that, if he was already rich and powerful in the first place? He was under no threat from poor people trying to take his possessions. Besides, poor people could not read what he had to say.

Correct me if I'm wrong but poor Greek people weren't deaf, were they?

His motivation is the same motivation that all aristocracies have for propagating ideas that sustain and enhance their position. Power isn't something you simply cross a threshold of from 'unpowerful' to 'powerful' and then sit there being powerful until you die.

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I don't like movements that make claims to everything on account of a so called common good. I prefer privates who make claims to certain things on account of their own good. A matter of honesty - they don't pretend to speak for me.

Do you like that air you're breathing? What could be more natural, or more common, than air and water? It's all been in and out of more human beings than either of us could count, not to mention lots of other organisms.

If other people are speaking for you, or pretending to, then talk over them.
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01-05-2013, 07:12 AM Post: #12
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RE: Argument for pivate property [Aristotle]
(01-05-2013 06:52 AM)BigTom Wrote:
(01-05-2013 06:41 AM)Fixed Cross Wrote:
Tom, I think that is a deeply shallow judgment of Aristotle. It also seems illogical from a psychological point of view. What reason would the guy have had to operate like that, if he was already rich and powerful in the first place? He was under no threat from poor people trying to take his possessions. Besides, poor people could not read what he had to say.

Correct me if I'm wrong but poor Greek people weren't deaf, were they?

He didn't take to the streets with his ideas, like Socrates did. And you had to make a big effort then - as you do now - to be heard by the masses. They do not tend to think very logically either. At least not from what I've seen.

Socrates is a good example of how speaking a philosophical mind to the masses is hardly in the philosophers private interest.

Quote:
His motivation is the same motivation that all aristocracies have for propagating ideas that sustain and enhance their position.

Forgive me if I don't take your word on that. I mean that is a very bold statement with absolutely no sort of backing. You've not shown me to be an expert on Aristotle, let alone on his underlying psychology.

Quote:
Power isn't something you simply cross a threshold of from 'unpowerful' to 'powerful' and then sit there being powerful until you die.

If we are talking about wealth, one either inherits or gains it. If one inherits it, in fact it is very possible that one just 'sits there'. It is often said that philosophy is an aristocratic occupation, as one needs a great deal of leisure to pursue it.

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I don't like movements that make claims to everything on account of a so called common good. I prefer privates who make claims to certain things on account of their own good. A matter of honesty - they don't pretend to speak for me.

Do you like that air you're breathing? What could be more natural, or more common, than air and water? It's all been in and out of more human beings than either of us could count, not to mention lots of other organisms.

Do you lik the body you inhabit? Or would you prefer that people can just take it because the community has decided a greater number of people than your individual self has better used for it dead?
Do you like having a home, a computer, something to store your data on, a girlfriend perhaps who isn't shared by any given member of the tribe?

Quote:
If other people are speaking for you, or pretending to, then talk over them.

Count on it.
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01-05-2013, 07:28 AM (This post was last modified: 01-05-2013 07:30 AM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #13
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RE: Argument for pivate property [Aristotle]
In marriage, or partnership, two people decide to be together, to "give themselves to each other". This is done on the basis of privacy, which is the same principle as private property. One can only give if one has something to give. This is what the Aristotle excerpt means to my mind.

The opposite is common sharing of every aspect of life. In a totally 'commonist' society there can be no trust between people, individuals can not set boundaries, can not have their own space, there can not be any depth or meaning to any kind of bond or commitment.

Perhaps for many people such a state seems desirable. For me it would be hell. I would have to kill everyone except the person I'd want to be with.
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01-05-2013, 09:49 AM (This post was last modified: 01-05-2013 09:50 AM by JSS.) Post: #14
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RE: Argument for pivate property [Aristotle]
Despite the very many things to object to throughout this exchange, I will contain myself to this one simple thought;

"Tribal life" does NOT exclude Global exploration or experiences. It merely limits the permitted influence upon the tribe and its members.
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01-05-2013, 10:46 AM Post: #15
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RE: Argument for pivate property [Aristotle]
Quote:
"Tribal life" does NOT exclude Global exploration or experiences. It merely limits the permitted influence upon the tribe and its members.

I'm 100% on board with that.
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01-07-2013, 12:58 AM Post: #16
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RE: Argument for pivate property [Aristotle]
(01-05-2013 07:12 AM)Fixed Cross Wrote:
He didn't take to the streets with his ideas, like Socrates did. And you had to make a big effort then - as you do now - to be heard by the masses. They do not tend to think very logically either. At least not from what I've seen.

Socrates is a good example of how speaking a philosophical mind to the masses is hardly in the philosophers private interest.

Come off it. The point is that one doesn't have to be able to read in order to be influenced by ideas. One philosopher being killed for speaking his mind does nothing to prove that other philosophers could not gain advantages by speaking their minds. You know as well as I do that a huge amount depends on which ideas you espouse, and whether they are conducive to the existing political power structures and dynamics.

Otherwise why would they have gone to such efforts to create celebrity intellectuals like Ray Kurzweil and Richard Dawkins?

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His motivation is the same motivation that all aristocracies have for propagating ideas that sustain and enhance their position.

Forgive me if I don't take your word on that. I mean that is a very bold statement with absolutely no sort of backing. You've not shown me to be an expert on Aristotle, let alone on his underlying psychology.

Fine, to clarify: His motivation for writing the argument being discussed in this thread, not his motivation in its totality which no one can know because we simply don't have the information on which to make such a judgment, is the same motivation that exists in all aristocracies. Private property, free will, the free market - all have been more commonly used throughout history by people who already have wealth, as a means of protecting what they have. More commonly than they have been used as founding ideas for genuine revolutions, rather than factional coup d'etats, at any rate.

The fact that this argument is come from a man whose very name reeks of aristocracy, and who argued that slavery was a natural phenomenon, should tell you something about the limited class of people to whom he is seeking to accord the right of private property.

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Power isn't something you simply cross a threshold of from 'unpowerful' to 'powerful' and then sit there being powerful until you die.

If we are talking about wealth, one either inherits or gains it. If one inherits it, in fact it is very possible that one just 'sits there'. It is often said that philosophy is an aristocratic occupation, as one needs a great deal of leisure to pursue it.

It is often said, but I don't believe it. Academic philosophy, the kind practiced in the period in Ancient Greece that includes Aristotle's life and education, is an aristocratic occupation. But given the time the modern non-aristocrat spends in being schooled and in watching TV, they've had more than enough time to read some books and think about them. It isn't a lack of time or even opportunity (at least for those with the internet) that means they don't do it. Again, you know this as well as I do.

Even those that inherit wealth have to conform to certain standards, otherwise they tend to suffer from accidents while hunting. And I said they don't just get it then have it, without struggle, for the rest of their lives.

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Do you like that air you're breathing? What could be more natural, or more common, than air and water? It's all been in and out of more human beings than either of us could count, not to mention lots of other organisms.

Do you lik the body you inhabit? Or would you prefer that people can just take it because the community has decided a greater number of people than your individual self has better used for it dead?[/quote]
There are better arguments against the tyranny of them killing me and eating my corpse than that my body is my private property.

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Do you like having a home, a computer, something to store your data on, a girlfriend perhaps who isn't shared by any given member of the tribe?

I don't own the home where I live. I do own my computer and associated equipment, and yes I do like it, but it's not as though I can live without air and water (things that are inherently shared amongst us and which any attempt to privatise is both horrible and insane) as easily as I can live without my computer. And as above, I certainly don't think that claiming a girlfriend is my private property is anything close to the best argument why she isn't just shared around the tribe. The positive virtues of monogamy, the bond of trust that exists between faithful lovers, is far more important than any notion of ownership when it comes to ladyfolk.

And herein lies my problem with private property as a liberation philosophy, or part of a liberation grand narrative - all too quickly it goes from owning a house that you live in to the exclusion of others (a very good thing) to owning people. Aristotle. The Founding Fathers. Your comment about girlfriends. Can you see why I have such a problem with this idea, when it so readily ends up in an advocation of slavery? Even in the hands of very intelligent people, like you, or Aristotle, or the Founding Fathers. The speed with which you went to the idea of owning another person (completely contrary to the argument you started out making, which I essentially agree with) when provoked should tell you something about the collateral damage of that idea.

I'm right with you that Marxism as a philosophy has been proven to be a failure by the passage of history, but that doesn't mean capitalism, private property and the individual have been proven to have triumphed. All three were critical in bringing the West to the verge of bankruptcy. That in turn has made possible the sort of political dialogue we see in the UK, where the achievements of collectivist movements are under attack in the name of protecting the private property of the few.

If you see nothing wrong in this then it is a point at which we fundamentally differ.

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If other people are speaking for you, or pretending to, then talk over them.

Count on it.

I will.
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01-07-2013, 04:27 AM (This post was last modified: 01-07-2013 04:29 AM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #17
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RE: Argument for pivate property [Aristotle]
I will go into all of that in a following post but for now: my comment was not about you owning your girlfriend but her owning herself, and thereby her freedom to give herself to you. Not as property, but certainly as a dedication, a commitment. I said:

"In marriage, or partnership, two people decide to be together, to "give themselves to each other". This is done on the basis of privacy, which is the same principle as private property. One can only give if one has something to give. This is what the Aristotle excerpt means to my mind."

I think that you have missed the logic of my argument so far. As valid as your objection to the privatization of naturally common things is (and this does not conflict with Aristotle), you seem to claim that everything should be common, that nothing can be privately owned or determined. At least that is how it appears so far. I disagree with that completely and am wholly with Aristotle when he says:

" Property should be in a certain sense common, but, as a general rule, private; for, when everyone has a distinct interest, men will not complain of one another, and they will make more progress, because every one will be attending to his own business... And further, there is the greatest pleasure in doing a kindness or service to friends or guests or companions, which can only be rendered when a man has private property. These advantages are lost by excessive unification of the state. "
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01-07-2013, 07:37 AM (This post was last modified: 01-08-2013 12:45 PM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #18
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RE: Argument for pivate property [Aristotle]
(01-07-2013 12:58 AM)BigTom Wrote:
(01-05-2013 07:12 AM)Fixed Cross Wrote:
He didn't take to the streets with his ideas, like Socrates did. And you had to make a big effort then - as you do now - to be heard by the masses. They do not tend to think very logically either. At least not from what I've seen.

Socrates is a good example of how speaking a philosophical mind to the masses is hardly in the philosophers private interest.

Come off it. The point is that one doesn't have to be able to read in order to be influenced by ideas. One philosopher being killed for speaking his mind does nothing to prove that other philosophers could not gain advantages by speaking their minds.

No, but nothing here proves that Aristotle was not just saying what he honestly believed. And since I agree with him and own no slaves and extort no people, since I am not an aristocrat, it is hardly evident that he said what he said for the sake of his aristocracy.

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You know as well as I do that a huge amount depends on which ideas you espouse, and whether they are conducive to the existing political power structures and dynamics.

Otherwise why would they have gone to such efforts to create celebrity intellectuals like Ray Kurzweil and Richard Dawkins?

By your rationale, I should only be saying things that benefit my position in society. That is not how my mind, how a philosophical mind works. I think in order to clarify. Sure, I consider the consequences sometimes and soften my words now and then. But I do not invent false theories in order to suit my interests. And as I now have shown, I have no reason to assume that Aristotle would do this.

I would actually challenge you to show me how you see it - how goods need to be distributed, by whom, by what standards, etc. I'd ask you to attack (as in analyze) the logic of Aristotles proposition.

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His motivation is the same motivation that all aristocracies have for propagating ideas that sustain and enhance their position.

Forgive me if I don't take your word on that. I mean that is a very bold statement with absolutely no sort of backing. You've not shown me to be an expert on Aristotle, let alone on his underlying psychology.

Fine, to clarify: His motivation for writing the argument being discussed in this thread, not his motivation in its totality which no one can know because we simply don't have the information on which to make such a judgment, is the same motivation that exists in all aristocracies. Private property, free will, the free market - all have been more commonly used throughout history by people who already have wealth, a means of protecting what they have.

Not exclusively in either direction - I know you hate Americans, but still they are a valid example of the counterpart. Note for example that the American entertainment industry was initiated by poor Austrian and Hungarian Jews who had nothing but a few puppets, wigs, glasses and dresses. They embraced capitalism and free will (as in self-determination, not as will as separate from the being) because it allowed them to become prosperous.

Note also that the Communist leaders denounced private property, just so that they could have custody of everything in name of the common good.

You should really attempt to argue for the virtues of the communist kind of ethics and politics you suggest, instead of, or rather next to, stating the vices of ownership.

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More commonly than they have been used as founding ideas for genuine revolutions, rather than factional coup d'etats, at any rate.

I certainly don't know that that is the case. The right to not be owned, not to be simply part of a common project, but to be a private person, Habeas Corpus - ownership of the self -- you may continue to dismiss or ignore this, but it's central to the idea of private property.

The communist society does not allow for private personhood. Whether it's in the early Israeli kibbutzes, the European social movements, the Maoist state - every society that focusses on the common good rather than the individual good tends to let the "good" fall in favor of the "common". And that is because moral values (good, bad) are set by individuals, by subjects. Sometimes groups of individuals gather and compromise, sometimes they just work with, against and/or around each other. There are many forms of group-dynamic, but there is never a pre-fixed common good.

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The fact that this argument is come from a man whose very name reeks of aristocracy, and who argued that slavery was a natural phenomenon, should tell you something about the limited class of people to whom he is seeking to accord the right of private property.

Aristotles argument for the naturalness of slavery is complicated. Principally, his point appears to be that some people are born with leader qualities and some are not. That the ones who are not, are bound to serve. But he also says:

" But that those who take the opposite view [that is, who hold the view that slavery is not natural] have in a certain way right on their side, may be easily seen. For the words slavery and slave are used in two senses. There is a slave or slavery by law as well as by nature. The law of which I speak is a sort of convention-- the law by which whatever is taken in war is supposed to belong to the victors. But this right many jurists impeach, as they would an orator who brought forward an unconstitutional measure: they detest the notion that, because one man has the power of doing violence and is superior in brute strength, another shall be his slave and subject. "

I'd think you would agree with him there.

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Power isn't something you simply cross a threshold of from 'unpowerful' to 'powerful' and then sit there being powerful until you die.

If we are talking about wealth, one either inherits or gains it. If one inherits it, in fact it is very possible that one just 'sits there'. It is often said that philosophy is an aristocratic occupation, as one needs a great deal of leisure to pursue it.

It is often said, but I don't believe it. Academic philosophy, the kind practiced in the period in Ancient Greece that includes Aristotle's life and education, is an aristocratic occupation. But given the time the modern non-aristocrat spends in being schooled and in watching TV, they've had more than enough time to read some books and think about them. It isn't a lack of time or even opportunity (at least for those with the internet) that means they don't do it. Again, you know this as well as I do.

But that is inverting my premise. I am not saying that all people who have time on their hands are philosophers. I am saying that to be a philosopher, one has to have time on ones hands. This is most certainly true, as thinking things through takes a lot of time.

I am not contesting that a working-class person on welfare can be a philosopher. In fact I know that this can be true. In a sense, a person on welfare is an aristocrat. He has other people working to allow him his leisure.

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Do you like that air you're breathing? What could be more natural, or more common, than air and water? It's all been in and out of more human beings than either of us could count, not to mention lots of other organisms.

Do you lik the body you inhabit? Or would you prefer that people can just take it because the community has decided a greater number of people than your individual self has better used for it dead?

There are better arguments against the tyranny of them killing me and eating my corpse than that my body is my private property.

It seems a pretty good one to me. Habeas Corpus, the beginning of the modern conception of private property. Before that, a person used to belong to the tribe, to the common good.

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Do you like having a home, a computer, something to store your data on, a girlfriend perhaps who isn't shared by any given member of the tribe?

I don't own the home where I live. I do own my computer and associated equipment, and yes I do like it, but it's not as though I can live without air and water (things that are inherently shared amongst us and which any attempt to privatise is both horrible and insane) as easily as I can live without my computer. And as above, I certainly don't think that claiming a girlfriend is my private property is anything close to the best argument why she isn't just shared around the tribe. The positive virtues of monogamy, the bond of trust that exists between faithful lovers, is far more important than any notion of ownership when it comes to ladyfolk.

Again, if your girlfriend did not own herself by law, you could not have such faithful love. She had no power to dedicate herself. The tribe or family would do it for her.

And yes, to privatize air would be insanely horrible. No one in this thread (at least Aristotle nor I) has argued that this should be done. He did not write that everything should be privately owned. The argument is for the merit of the phenomenon of private ownership. And you have not addressed that argument, only attacked the one who makes it.

Quote:
[quote]And herein lies my problem with private property as a liberation philosophy, or part of a liberation grand narrative -

Hola, who said anything about liberation? Aristotle did not, nor did I. The motive for it is motivation.

Quote:
all too quickly it goes from owning a house that you live in to the exclusion of others (a very good thing) to owning people. Aristotle. The Founding Fathers. Your comment about girlfriends. Can you see why I have such a problem with this idea, when it so readily ends up in an advocation of slavery? Even in the hands of very intelligent people, like you, or Aristotle, or the Founding Fathers. The speed with which you went to the idea of owning another person (completely contrary to the argument you started out making, which I essentially agree with) when provoked should tell you something about the collateral damage of that idea.

Yeah I can see how you read that in the first of yesterdays posts. I made a point of clarifying what I meant in the second, and in what I wrote today. I hope it has been thoroughly cleared up by now that the reason I am in favor of private ownership is precisely that persons should, in my eyes, not be owned by the community. I think that every person should have the right to have his own space along with his own stuff, as the natural circumference to his own being. Subservience to the community is ultimately bestial.

Quote:
[quote]I'm right with you that Marxism as a philosophy has been proven to be a failure by the passage of history, but that doesn't mean capitalism, private property and the individual have been proven to have triumphed. All three were critical in bringing the West to the verge of bankruptcy. That in turn has made possible the sort of political dialogue we see in the UK, where the achievements of collectivist movements are under attack in the name of protecting the private property of the few.

If you see nothing wrong in this then it is a point at which we fundamentally differ.

I see no correlation between private property and individualism on the one hand and the bankruptcy of the west. I see the bankruptcy as a cause of owning more than one can afford on a massive scale.

Of course private property should be held to reasonable limits. One should basically not own something without acquiring it via some real-world means. Be it with labor, trade, inheritance, creativity or whatever. What caused the bankruptcy is getting in debts one does not have the means to ever get out of.

Debt, and all ownership that results from it, can with good reason be said to be the antithesis of private ownership. The ownership is not at all private, but owned. Owned ownership - a hidden form of state-ownership.
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01-07-2013, 10:46 AM Post: #19
Dannerz Offline
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RE: Argument for private property [Aristotle]
If people were perfectly moral, one guy owning a ton of stuff wouldn't be a problem, because he would use it to help everyone. I think economic problems derive from moral problems.
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01-08-2013, 12:41 PM (This post was last modified: 01-08-2013 12:43 PM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #20
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RE: Argument for private property [Aristotle]
Tom, I've figured out the point where I begin to disagree with you, or where my position becomes fundamentally alien to the idea of commonizing ownership. It's the point of building, cultivating, creating. I believe that part of a human being is the activity of building, That human life is dwelling while cultivating. Since this cultivating is so directly related to the ontic, existential human activity, so I regard the terrain wherein it occurs, the realm of the individuals cultivation, as a direct part of his 'private ownership', which is only axiomatic under the principle of habeas corpus - to own ones most basic value.

To follow, to own the body might reasonably mean also to own the fundamental requirements for this body to function. By this we mean air, and water - it should reasonably also mean food. But since part of the nature of the body is to cultivate, the acquirement of food may be seen as part of the ontic activity of being human, and thus also belong to this 'property', the self.

Habeas Corpus, as 'you shall have your body', then comes to mean: you shall cultivate your being. From this logic, which I'll admit isn't the most obvious form of thinking - Heidegger would like it - we can see that it would be inconvenient to not be able to have private property. One can not really cultivate much if one does not have decisive power over any goods or resources.

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RE: Argument for private property [Aristotle]
(01-07-2013 07:37 AM)Fixed Cross Wrote:
No, but nothing here proves that Aristotle was not just saying what he honestly believed. And since I agree with him and own no slaves and extort no people, since I am not an aristocrat, it is hardly evident that he said what he said for the sake of his aristocracy.

For one, he may have honestly believed it. Plenty of aristocrats do honestly believe things that they believe because it is conducive to their interests. The two are hardly mutually exclusive. For another, in global terms you (and I) are aristocrats. You enjoy a better material quality of life than the vast majority, and I imagine you'll agree our lifestyles are subsidised by the labour of much poorer people. It is no surprise to find that the philosophy of private property is one that is advanced by rich people, that's ultimately what I'm saying here.

Quote:
By your rationale, I should only be saying things that benefit my position in society. That is not how my mind, how a philosophical mind works. I think in order to clarify. Sure, I consider the consequences sometimes and soften my words now and then. But I do not invent false theories in order to suit my interests. And as I now have shown, I have no reason to assume that Aristotle would do this.

I would actually challenge you to show me how you see it - how goods need to be distributed, by whom, by what standards, etc. I'd ask you to attack (as in analyze) the logic of Aristotles proposition.

I don't think Aristotle or you are ONLY capable of saying things that benefit your position. I certainly think in this instance that both of you are arguing the case for a philosophy that if manifested would benefit your positions.

Where goods are in abundant supply I don't have an issue with the free market private property model. It seems to me the best way of ensuring low prices and encouraging innovation in the provision of essentials. Where goods are not in abundant supply I think we simply have to be more rational about it than to continue the globalisation of capitalism as has taken place in recent decades.

Quote:
Not exclusively in either direction - I know you hate Americans, but still they are a valid example of the counterpart. Note for example that the American entertainment industry was initiated by poor Austrian and Hungarian Jews who had nothing but a few puppets, wigs, glasses and dresses. They embraced capitalism and free will (as in self-determination, not as will as separate from the being) because it allowed them to become prosperous.

I'm sure there are billions of other examples. I'm not disputing this.

Quote:
Note also that the Communist leaders denounced private property, just so that they could have custody of everything in name of the common good.

You mean there are people who pretended not to believe in private property so as to claim everything for themselves, just as there are those who pretend to believe in private property so as to claim everything for themselves?

I'm not trying to piss you off but like the kids say: no shit.

Quote:
You should really attempt to argue for the virtues of the communist kind of ethics and politics you suggest, instead of, or rather next to, stating the vices of ownership.

I did point out that without commonly owned property we'd all be dead in seconds. I mean, as far as arguments for there being certain rational limits to the notion of private property and for there being a natural value to the idea of mutually owned or even unowned stuff in the world I think that's quite a good one. I mean, fuck all this whether or not we'd have computers without private property, we'd simply be dead without the common property of air and water.

Quote:
I certainly don't know that that is the case. The right to not be owned, not to be simply part of a common project, but to be a private person, Habeas Corpus - ownership of the self -- you may continue to dismiss or ignore this, but it's central to the idea of private property.

I have read John Locke, I am well aware of the philosophical tradition here.

Quote:
The communist society does not allow for private personhood. Whether it's in the early Israeli kibbutzes, the European social movements, the Maoist state - every society that focusses on the common good rather than the individual good tends to let the "good" fall in favor of the "common". And that is because moral values (good, bad) are set by individuals, by subjects. Sometimes groups of individuals gather and compromise, sometimes they just work with, against and/or around each other. There are many forms of group-dynamic, but there is never a pre-fixed common good.

The communist state doesn't allow for private personhood. Communism can exist beyond the state, and I agree does and necessarily so for us to survive. But you're right, in a state system communism does pretty much always lead to some elevation of some warped notion of 'the common good' above the values of the individual. But likewise, capitalism in a state system ends up privatising things like rainwater. You put either philosophy into a state structure and horrible and incredibly stupid things will happen.

Quote:
Aristotles argument for the naturalness of slavery is complicated. Principally, his point appears to be that some people are born with leader qualities and some are not. That the ones who are not, are bound to serve. But he also says:

" But that those who take the opposite view [that is, who hold the view that slavery is not natural] have in a certain way right on their side, may be easily seen. For the words slavery and slave are used in two senses. There is a slave or slavery by law as well as by nature. The law of which I speak is a sort of convention-- the law by which whatever is taken in war is supposed to belong to the victors. But this right many jurists impeach, as they would an orator who brought forward an unconstitutional measure: they detest the notion that, because one man has the power of doing violence and is superior in brute strength, another shall be his slave and subject. "

I'd think you would agree with him there.

So might gives you the right to steal someone's private property but not to make them your slave? OK, he's compromised a bit on the issue of slavery but he's still ultimately arguing that if you can take someone's else's property then it is morally justified if you do take it.

I stand by my position that this is an abominable argument.

Quote:
Quote:
There are better arguments against the tyranny of them killing me and eating my corpse than that my body is my private property.
Last edited by Fixed Cross on Tue Sep 13, 2016 11:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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see it now?

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### Re: New Moon Ashes

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The Terribleness of Man

Nietzsche Wrote:
In place of the "natural man" of Rousseau, the nineteenth century has discovered a truer image of "man"--it has had the courage to do so.-- On the whole, the Christian concept "man" has thus been reinstated. What one has not had the courage for is to call this "man in himself" good and to see in him the guarantee of the future. Neither has one dared to grasp that an increase in the terribleness of man is an accompaniment of every increase in culture; in this, one is still subject to the Christian ideal and takes its side against paganism, also against the Renaissance concept of virtù. But the key to culture is not to be found in this way: and in praxis one retains the falsification of history in favor of the "good man" (as if he alone constituted the progress of man) and the socialist ideal (i. e., the residue of Christianity and of Rousseau in the de-Christianized world).

The struggle against the eighteenth century: its supreme overcoming by Goethe and Napoleon. Schopenhauer, too, struggles against it; but he involuntarily steps back into the seventeenth century--he is a modern Pascal, with Pascalian value judgments without Christianity. Schopenhauer was not strong enough for a new Yes.

Napoleon: insight that the higher and the terrible man necessarily belong together. The "man" reinstated; the woman again accorded her due tribute of contempt and fear. "Totality" as health and highest activity; the straight line, the grand style in action rediscovered; the most powerful instinct, that of life itself, the lust to rule, affirmed.
[The Will to Power, aphorism 1017 (Spring-Fall 1887)]
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01-24-2013, 07:45 AM (This post was last modified: 01-24-2013 07:47 AM by pezer.) Post: #2
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RE: The Terribleness of Man
The overlords today are nihilist and have learned to nurture the idea of the new yes so as to control it. This is the sea of despair that the little Zarathustras, as you call them, dwell in.

Nietzsche gave us a good weapon for that, too. All that is needed then is to accept the conflictive nature of reality. Once that is done, the warrior can know himself, know his enemy, execute his will (as you call "it"). That is how man may be overcome. The sad reality, however, is that the nihilist lords have become quite effective at preventing effective alliances. In this vapiric mix, the Zarathustras burn brightly, die down, and end up some neatly-allocated where.

The last man is the man who prefers fancies to this undeniable truth, all too happy to follow tracks laid down for them. Are we to continue wandering about in the wilderness, or will we meet together to usurp the usurpers? Rebellion is the only way: and it is not the spirit, fire and conviction of rebellion that I invoke.
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01-24-2013, 11:28 PM Post: #3
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RE: The Terribleness of Man
Apparently this site has forfeited it's possible role as an instrument for rebellion.
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01-24-2013, 11:44 PM Post: #4
W.C. Away
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RE: The Terribleness of Man
Is that what you made this for, Fixed Cross?

An instrument for Rebellion against whom or what?
— W.C.

'Through the dark decades of your pain, this will seem like a memory of Heaven.'
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01-25-2013, 11:30 AM (This post was last modified: 01-25-2013 11:31 AM by Gobbo.) Post: #5
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RE: The Terribleness of Man
The site is fine.

FX is just going through one of his episodes.
"I said I was going to get to your calls but...look."
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01-29-2013, 03:57 AM (This post was last modified: 01-29-2013 03:59 AM by pezer.) Post: #6
pezer Offline
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RE: The Terribleness of Man
"An instrument for Rebellion against whom or what? "

Nobody and nothing of course. You have only yourself to rebel against, W.C..

Tongue
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01-29-2013, 05:13 AM Post: #7
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RE: The Terribleness of Man
This site is less about rebellion and more about getting better as people. As humans.

It's about overcoming the personal limitations you have that prevent you from succeeding at personal projects, or likewise from working with others.

The best way I know of to get better at life is to talk about smart things and hang out with noteworthy people. You cannot script this stuff. This is an experiment and we'll just have to wait to see what happens.
"I said I was going to get to your calls but...look."
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01-29-2013, 11:48 AM Post: #8
W.C. Away
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RE: The Terribleness of Man
(01-29-2013 03:57 AM)pezer Wrote:
"An instrument for Rebellion against whom or what? "

Nobody and nothing of course. You have only yourself to rebel against, W.C..

Why do you say that?
— W.C.

'Through the dark decades of your pain, this will seem like a memory of Heaven.'
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01-29-2013, 03:35 PM Post: #9
pezer Offline
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RE: The Terribleness of Man
Rebellion is, for us, a positivistic approach. What I mean by what I wrote before is that you seem to avoid conflict, enmity, manyness, game playing. Do you have no enemies, really? It seems you would have only yourself to clash against in your rebellion.

I agree, it sounds boring.
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01-29-2013, 09:58 PM (This post was last modified: 01-29-2013 10:24 PM by W.C..) Post: #10
W.C. Away
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RE: The Terribleness of Man
I will there to be no conflict where I will it, and am able. Crowley's plays just wore off fast; generally too useless for me and my wants personally, but they still at times hold their charm.

That said, my life is filled enough with enmity, game playing, double standards, power plays and the like to take the same to a place where I come to escape it and am actually able to discuss things at times -- usually more thoroughly and insightfully relevant than the day to day games run.

You see, this place and others like it are much the same to in person chat, but dynamics are different. The whole approach is almost all in written form, where parties address one another on a turn basis. Life isn't like that. You will have interruptions, distractions, this that, and you wont have the time to articulate and express everything you so desire as the time is usually rather short and, at least regarding the humanity I have experienced, people are rarely bothered to actually listen or discuss what you have to say.

I understand many would carry on their word wars on forums and the like, but I am too encumbered, I feel too weighed down by my life at present to give much of a damn to that in my 'escapes.'

I will engage the power word reputation whatever games at times, but I generally will to avoid it when escaping, and in as much life as possible, unless I feel I can be taught something of equal value to the bother. It seems counter productive in general, though undoubtedly valuable at times.

I am just getting tired as well, I think. Churchy said something like that once. But I just don't want to waste too much time, pretty much.
— W.C.

'Through the dark decades of your pain, this will seem like a memory of Heaven.'

01-30-2013, 01:08 AM Post: #11
Abstract Offline
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RE: The Terribleness of Man
(01-20-2013 02:05 AM)Fixed Cross Wrote:

Nietzsche Wrote:
In place of the "natural man" of Rousseau, the nineteenth century has discovered a truer image of "man"--it has had the courage to do so.-- On the whole, the Christian concept "man" has thus been reinstated. What one has not had the courage for is to call this "man in himself" good and to see in him the guarantee of the future. Neither has one dared to grasp that an increase in the terribleness of man is an accompaniment of every increase in culture; in this, one is still subject to the Christian ideal and takes its side against paganism, also against the Renaissance concept of virtù. But the key to culture is not to be found in this way: and in praxis one retains the falsification of history in favor of the "good man" (as if he alone constituted the progress of man) and the socialist ideal (i. e., the residue of Christianity and of Rousseau in the de-Christianized world).

The struggle against the eighteenth century: its supreme overcoming by Goethe and Napoleon. Schopenhauer, too, struggles against it; but he involuntarily steps back into the seventeenth century--he is a modern Pascal, with Pascalian value judgments without Christianity. Schopenhauer was not strong enough for a new Yes.

Napoleon: insight that the higher and the terrible man necessarily belong together. The "man" reinstated; the woman again accorded her due tribute of contempt and fear. "Totality" as health and highest activity; the straight line, the grand style in action rediscovered; the most powerful instinct, that of life itself, the lust to rule, affirmed.
[The Will to Power, aphorism 1017 (Spring-Fall 1887)]
Could you explain to me what he is saying here?
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01-30-2013, 06:53 AM Post: #12
pezer Offline
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RE: The Terribleness of Man
Maybe we should just avoid eachother... Your life and outlook sound horrible.
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01-31-2013, 12:39 AM Post: #13
Abstract Offline
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RE: The Terribleness of Man
(01-20-2013 02:05 AM)Fixed Cross Wrote:

Nietzsche Wrote:
In place of the "natural man" of Rousseau, the nineteenth century has discovered a truer image of "man"--it has had the courage to do so.-- On the whole, the Christian concept "man" has thus been reinstated. What one has not had the courage for is to call this "man in himself" good and to see in him the guarantee of the future. Neither has one dared to grasp that an increase in the terribleness of man is an accompaniment of every increase in culture; in this, one is still subject to the Christian ideal and takes its side against paganism, also against the Renaissance concept of virtù. But the key to culture is not to be found in this way: and in praxis one retains the falsification of history in favor of the "good man" (as if he alone constituted the progress of man) and the socialist ideal (i. e., the residue of Christianity and of Rousseau in the de-Christianized world).

The struggle against the eighteenth century: its supreme overcoming by Goethe and Napoleon. Schopenhauer, too, struggles against it; but he involuntarily steps back into the seventeenth century--he is a modern Pascal, with Pascalian value judgments without Christianity. Schopenhauer was not strong enough for a new Yes.

Napoleon: insight that the higher and the terrible man necessarily belong together. The "man" reinstated; the woman again accorded her due tribute of contempt and fear. "Totality" as health and highest activity; the straight line, the grand style in action rediscovered; the most powerful instinct, that of life itself, the lust to rule, affirmed.
[The Will to Power, aphorism 1017 (Spring-Fall 1887)]
hmmm... similar to the out look presented by The Stellar Man... That humanity only worsens or at the least remains the same as it ages only weakening itself as it grows technologies that do its work for it...

but surely there is the development of some out of the whole...

but perhaps it would be better that rather then manipulating our environment we allowed ourselves to adapt to it and evolve. using ourselves rather then allowing ourselves to atrophy by relying on what we make by hand...

Why do we do this but that we seek expansion and thus survival... that Human seeks survival... but then perhaps such sought is out of ignorance not seeing that life can return after death... and that perhaps a life on earth alone for as long as the sun allows would not be so bad... would we really survive as Human in space or still over billions of years change to something else... why not sit still for another billion years or so, that we have, on this earth?

Nonhuman Rights Project
[Image: 06zxYCG.jpg]

Quote:
The Nonhuman Rights Project is the only organization working toward actual LEGAL rights for members of species other than our own. Our mission is to change the common law status of at least some nonhuman animals from mere “things,” which lack the capacity to possess any legal right, to “persons,” who possess such fundamental rights as bodily integrity and bodily liberty, and those other legal rights to which evolving standards of morality, scientific discovery, and human experience entitle them. Our first cases are being prepared for filing in 2013. Your support of this work is deeply appreciated.

http://www.nonhumanrightsproject.org/
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02-05-2013, 06:10 PM (This post was last modified: 02-05-2013 06:11 PM by pezer.) Post: #2
pezer Offline
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RE: Nonhuman Rights Project
It would be genius if they created new categories that bridge the gap they mention instead of just calling elephant people.

Like I said, though, the idea of reconsidering the philosophical status of animals is genius. These crazy new populists in south America really do come up with staggeringly beautiful ideas... It's too bad they are mostly cover-ups for mass mediocrity.

Chávez, for example, formulated the idea of adding the political unit of a commune to the existing parishes and such, so that direct democracy over certain aspects of their organization as a political being would be given to the truly disenfranchised. In the end, it turned into a kind of direct Big Brother to The People link for the organization of militias and giving of goods (like fridges). All the functions of the commune are explicitly linked by law to executive power in all aspects. But the idea is fantastic, I hope it survives him; just like this one with Evo.

Indeed, now that we know the true origins of life, is there any excuse for the simplification of its organization in respect to us? We have the information today to start building a fully relativistic understanding of our world, which is the genius insight of value ontology.

I have not read him yet, which is annnoying, but I have heard that Deleuze's approach is largely this one with respect to animals.

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02-09-2013, 01:07 AM Post: #3
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RE: Nonhuman Rights Project
(02-05-2013 06:10 PM)pezer Wrote:
It would be genius if they created new categories that bridge the gap they mention instead of just calling elephant people.
Have to start somewhere.
I get the idea that in the Spanish speaking world, a lot of sensible political initiatives are being taken.

Quote:
Indeed, now that we know the true origins of life, is there any excuse for the simplification of its organization in respect to us? We have the information today to start building a fully relativistic understanding of our world, which is the genius insight of value ontology.
Thank you. I mean it's been a good while since I was reminded of what VO is really about.

short story bits
Bernadette was looking over her shoulder to the man making the noise on the escalator. He looked like a man but he sounded like a woman. His voice... eerie. She looked forward, Bernadette, and saw the train coming. She hurried down the last steps and was at the platofrm well in time.

The train passed all sorts of pasutres, fields, acres full of corn and endless rows of red, yellow and purple tulips. It was late in the summer. The sun set above a horizon muddled by flats and warehouses. The future was not set.

When the train arived Bernadette got up and offered her seat at the window to an old woman. The woman declined, and took a place at the isle. The young boy who had been sitting next to Bernadette now skooped over and smiled. Bernadette smiled also. She liked the young more than the old. Had more with them in common. She didn’t look at the old woman again. She got out and it was still warm.

The village was a few miles away, Bernadette had to take a bus. The driver looked old to the point of death. These sorts of people don’t usually drive public transport. Usuallty drivers are vigorous, life-lusty types. Perverse may be, but not weak. Bernadette felt not good sitting down in the care of this man. This feeble ghost. She arrived safely. She had forgotten here reservations along the way. The dusk had created a beautiful spectacle.

ILP content on the NWO front page?
I was thinking since we do not have the numbers by long shot to get content produced and selected, we could make a thread on ILP where we paste posts that we consider fit to put up. Gobbo would then be able to up there what he thinks is valid. I am comfortable with having Gobbo select what goes up, more so than myself actually. I am in favor of democracy of content and property but I am usually diametrically opposed to the democratic consensus. I allow this because I know consensus shifts with the wind, and used to seeing millions others tred where I had made a path earlier on. This runs from commercials and nike-trends to the iphone to philosophical perspectives.

I have a Neptune-Mars-Mercury-Vesta-Fortune-Pallas-Moon combination on the latitude scale, Gobbo has a Neptune-Mars-Jupiter conjunction on the longitude scale. I am an indirect, subtle agent of vision, he is a direct, Earthly one. It is by my subtle vision that I know to trust Gobbo despite the mistrust that his lack of concern about missing the mark combined with his constant stabbing at dangerous power structures causes in many and what is perhaps just my lower self. The Angel Gobbo exists. We are perhaps all to attempt to be as Angelic as possible. For this site to work. A war in Heaven! Alea Iacta Est!

We must invent a mask for the leadership. We must perhaps also advertise on other forums across the web.

We could set out a task for all moderators and request to members to each post about advertizements of this site and its plan on 30 different locations. It will require registering to many sites. I have created a persona on email for the end of being able to join everything as this persona instead of constantly referring back to my own name, which gives me a sense of solidity that I think reverberates via the value-reality into the intersubjective memetic structure of the internet.

This site has a powerful chart, it involves a hermetic pattern two Mercy-planets (Jupiter, Venus) with two Severity forces (Mars, Saturn) and adds to this mix Pluto, which is directly on Mars.

Well I got derailed there but perhaps it is interesting for some. This site feels like an enormous void, pure desire for content, which I am not even close at being able to produce.

Also, what is stopping the mods from producing content for the main page?
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01-30-2013, 07:21 AM Post: #2
Lara Offline
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RE: ILP content on the NWO front page?
Where do you get your drugs?
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01-30-2013, 07:36 AM Post: #3
pezer Offline
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RE: ILP content on the NWO front page?
I think this is your problem:

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01-30-2013, 07:48 AM (This post was last modified: 01-30-2013 08:01 AM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #4
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RE: ILP content on the NWO front page?
HAHAHA yes, well more or less. The spirit of gravity is this kitchen block. It resides within all of the onlookers. I did not make a bet with others that I could do this alone. If a couple of these crazies make a few steps and help me carry it, the "spirit of heaviness" would be defeated and we would be FREE! FREE! F - oh wait.

I get my drugs on a street called "The Other Shore".
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01-30-2013, 09:33 AM (This post was last modified: 01-30-2013 09:33 AM by Gobbo.) Post: #5
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RE: ILP content on the NWO front page?
Quote:
his constant stabbing at dangerous power structures

Anyone else catch this?

>>/x/
"I said I was going to get to your calls but...look."
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01-30-2013, 06:13 PM (This post was last modified: 01-30-2013 06:15 PM by Gobbo.) Post: #6
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RE: ILP content on the NWO front page?
Maybe I'm wrong, but I feel like the forum comes first, and the front page comes second. I'm not that worried about producing content for the front page if we're going to attract mostly forum addicts. Like I want to, but I'm not in a big rush. It will definitely tie the community if we can get going, though. That type of thing is key.

I like the marketing ideas. Go forth and do that. You definitely don't need my permission. I am going to take over the twitter, though, and I'm going to try and get super active with that. Pretending to be a girl is not a bad idea, but I probably won't do that for the twitter.

I like the ILP thing, but it's kind of underhanded to do that kind of advertising. Then again, their admin is never around and I don't care what the mods think.

If we can get, in any way, any person to submit any content for us to put on the front page, then maybe we can worry about how, moving forward, things will be selected.
Quote:
Also, what is stopping the mods from producing content for the main page?

Nothing at all. I think people are probably just busy. I am trying to do all of this, and go to school while working. This will all take some time. As numbers grow, so will the desire to contribute and be seen by those numbers.

This is all a game of human incentives. No one is getting paid, so it's kind of a 'steady as she goes' type thing.
"I said I was going to get to your calls but...look."
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01-31-2013, 06:33 AM Post: #7
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RE: ILP content on the NWO front page?
(01-30-2013 06:06 AM)Fixed Cross Wrote:
I was thinking since we do not have the numbers by long shot to get content produced and selected, we could make a thread on ILP where we paste posts that we consider fit to put up.

Why not? It might work, it might not.

Quote:
The Angel Gobbo exists.

Too right.

Quote:
Alea Iacta Est!

[Image: quizavq2.png]

Quote:
Also, what is stopping the mods from producing content for the main page?

Time, inclination.
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01-31-2013, 10:21 AM Post: #8
W.C. Away
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RE: ILP content on the NWO front page?
But why would we limit it to ILP? Posts, blogs, etc from anywhere should be ok, so long as we quote the source, and we can then add our own two cents, if so inclined.
— W.C.

'Through the dark decades of your pain, this will seem like a memory of Heaven.'
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01-31-2013, 12:01 PM Post: #9
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RE: ILP content on the NWO front page?
Yes.

Blow up huge forums like GLP and AJ with our name
"I said I was going to get to your calls but...look."
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02-02-2013, 06:53 AM (This post was last modified: 02-02-2013 06:53 AM by Gobbo.) Post: #10
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RE: ILP content on the NWO front page?
I feel like we should debate ILP.

I'm not sure where we would find judges - maybe Satyr or someone - but we should debate them on some sort of perennial conspiracy topic. Or something a bit more refined.

The point is, it would be nice to destroy their false confidence. Me and FX might not see eye to eye on a lot of things, but wanting to break out of this cycle of sameness is needed.

I'm watching him over there right now, and it's the same old thing as it always is. We need to change this.
"I said I was going to get to your calls but...look."
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
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see it now?

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Fixed Cross
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### Re: New Moon Ashes

I disagree. I do not think that to have free will is required, first of all because this notion is illogical to begin with. Will free from what? From the self? From the will?

From the influence of the will of others, I'd assume, just as self-ownership is first and foremost a resistance to being seized and flung in a hole.

Quote:
I also do not think that one needs to know every single electron or drive of oneself to be considered self-conscious. though indeed, one must know oneself to as certain extent to be entrusted to oneself. Parodites wrote on this beautifully, I will see if I can find it.

I don't mean knowing every last electron, I mean that ultimately one cannot stand outside oneself to know what it is one is claiming ownership of. Rather, there is constant negotiation and struggle for what one naturally feels is rightfully ones own. That's the same with the self as it is with girlfriends or houses or dogs or any such property.

Quote:
He said:
Quote:
when everyone has a distinct interest, men will not complain of one another, and they will make more progress, because every one will be attending to his own business

Are you saying this is not a narrative of liberation? I mean, he doesn't explicitly characterise it but that's very much what I'm reading it as.

I'm am, to me it's about what drives humans to act.[/quote]

I don't think he's necessarily claiming that this is what drives people to act - though I interpreted him in that way - as much as he's claiming that it's the most productive arrangement. Regardless, I do contest that it is a drive that fundamentally subsumes others.

Quote:
More or less, I think. I read your position as being that not everything should be privatized. I agree with that. But I agree with Aristotle completely as well, and I do not think his and your position contradict.
One issue with air is that it's naturally freely distributed. Food is not, certainly not cars or computers. Water is, but clean water is not. I am not using that in an argument here, but it should be noted.

And some places just aren't suitable for human habitation, like the Antarctic. Or most deserts. It is truly stupid to think that via economic subsidy (usually just debt taken on by the West and then transferred elsewhere) one can make all parts of the world habitable by whatever size population fertility ratios produce. Communism has a lot to answer for in terms of the population-resource fuck up, just as Capitalism does.

Quote:
No, because as I understand private property, corporate-state owned debt is a negation of private property.

This is certainly where we differ. I see the drive to acquisition and the claim of private property being extended beyond rational limits - or just eradicating any notion of there being rational limits - as being at the heart of the peaking of the infinite growth model. But then, you might not accept that is what we're seeing and that is the physical cause of the timing of the present recession.

Quote:
Quote:
And yet debt is the primary means of slavery in the modern world.

And yet? This supports my position.

Yes, I see that now. I suppose my question is that for those who believe in private property as a fundamental human drive and as the best rational arrangement of access to resources, where do you draw the limits? On what basis, if you don't fundamentally believe in common or unowned property, do you decide how much land someone can just come along and enclose?

As I said before, or elsewhere, I like the crofting model, wherein it was the people already living there who could decide whether or not to allow someone to enclose a nice patch of otherwise common or unowned land to call their own.

Quote:
Pirivate ownership goes hand in hand with individualism. if one is willing to let that idea(l) go, then there is no need for ownership either. One would of course then have to accept that a head(s) of a tribe or corporation owns everything and everyone, and hope that he/she divides things so that there is something for everyone.

I can't see a third alternative, as large numbers of humans do not really tend to (never do) self-organize without appointing leaders, delegating decisions. Do you see a third way? If so, can you explain it in some detail? Order is, after all, what we are seeking.

It's more a question of dynamics than of trying to change human behaviour. Rather than determining leaders we should be determining representatives. Order without a claim to the right of hierarchy. I'm not opposed to hierarchies per se, in a military context we have to have them, but in a political context I'm not convinced we do. Elevation to public office should be exactly that, no more.
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01-18-2013, 08:25 AM (This post was last modified: 01-18-2013 08:29 AM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #24
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RE: Argument for private property [Aristotle]
I think we have exhausted our artificially highlighted differences. Our perspectives meet in this question:

Quote:
I suppose my question is that for those who believe in private property as a fundamental human drive and as the best rational arrangement of access to resources, where do you draw the limits? On what basis, if you don't fundamentally believe in common or unowned property, do you decide how much land someone can just come along and enclose?

Anyone who does not believe in common or unowned property ( a contradiction of terms of course, but it is clear what you mean ) is a madman. Privatizing air is malign by any standards I care to calculate with.
Anyone who does not believe in private property at all is a communist of the wrong kind, and while not quite as dangerous as the madman he is certainly an adversary to human nature, when we do not mean enslaved and excessively conditioned nature but the nature that thrives and explores itself, 'becomes'.

Further discussion on my side of the story would involve Heideggers "Building, Dwelling, Thinking", a document of philosophy where the ontology of the human being is seen to conceptually blend with what is cultivated to sustain his being and reaches it's most articulated ontic reality in this cultivating. Only in the perfectly ideal and altruistic society would this process of 'becoming being' be sustained by a organically self-organized collective. In all other cases property laws will be required to allow for self-cultivation.

The text can be found here in case you'll get interested in pursuing this side of the story down the line.
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01-26-2013, 02:43 AM Post: #25
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RE: Argument for private property [Aristotle]
If I may interject here briefly, having followed this conversation so far, I believe both positions being espoused here are not fundamentally in conflict. Both seem to posit the human being as not a "free or wholly autonomous agent" as well as a being with essential nature or need to have some control over its living, which both would agree necessitates some/much control over one's surroundings. Both agree to the utility of society as an essential human principle; one enumerates this principle under the language of empowerment of the individual to possess means of his or her own ascension and security, to pursue one's motives and self-actuality, the other under language emphasizing the tendency of social power-structures and institutions toward hyper-acquisition of resources and productive means, often at the expense of the interests of the many, and particularly within what we could consider capitalist organizations of economy, and that of course we must work to achieve progressive liberation from such oppression. I believe that both of these positions are very valid. The common theme seems to be working to enhance human living, which of course must at the same time honestly and bluntly recognize the detrimental and banal aspects of human nature while also trying to rise above these, to aspire to a vision and world where the greater spirit in man exerts more strength and freedom against the lesser.

One of Marx' main points is that capitalism tends naturally to exploitation of the lesser powerful by the greater. Guattari elaborates on this by showing how capitalist functioning gathers and prescribes its own marginal spaces, it "capitalizes" even those revolutionary forces which would seek to indermine it; capitalism produces strong self-sustaining power and thus closes exploitation against possible disruption. I think both of you seem to agree that this exploitation should be avoided. The practical way to avoid it, of course, is not an easy fix, the situation is quite complex and in many ways capitalism or the "free market" philosophy is quite natural to human behavior, drive to possess wealth for oneself, greed, self-interest over considerations of group, environment or future. That it is often normal for humans to act in these ways, particularly the human who has never taken much time to grow in terms of self-knowledge, philosophy or moral sentiment, is perhaps the biggest problem that we face. The tyrannical power-structures in the world are sustained by human ignorance, by minds more animal than strictly speaking human, and of course the same social systems which are sustained by widespread human ignorance also cause the very conditions of ignorance which sustain them.. Capitalism within limits, strong controls on the power of extant wealth to set the agenda of things, but not an abandonment of the basic system of individual rights and protections of property to a certain degree, a degree that does not allow those with a lot to ride over those without, and therefore also many social mechanisms in place to aid possibilities of upward mobility and disincentive worker exploitation and excess poor treatment and conditions, this sort of middle-ground approach, a compromise between the two extreme ideals loosely defined as capitalism and communism, is probably the best we can hope for at this point.

No position is perfect, no principle of human nature here is absolute. Neither society nor the individual is an irreducible ontological or moral category, in thought or in practice. Life involves determining at which points we may find compromise, life itself is such an impulse to "compromise".
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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01-30-2013, 08:08 AM Post: #26
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RE: Argument for private property [Aristotle]
I think my cousin found the solution.
We were talking about a pack of cigarettes when I asked him for one, and he said cigarettes are common property. (Algemeen bezit) I then said yeah but it's your common property.

So - that's basically it, what Aristotle says. In a nutshell (and I am ruining it by simplifying it but alas) there would be no cigarettes in the house at all if it weren't for the one who owns having acquired it for himself. But now that he does have them it is only normal to share it, as well as pleasurable to him to be able to share. To make a gesture, to contribute, to provide value.

Up for discussion is the measure of this pleasure, this altruistic instinct. Greed can be cultivated but not by pure capitalism (one needs lust, decadence of instincts), and so can altruism - but not by communizing everything so that no one has anything to share.
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01-30-2013, 08:21 PM Post: #27
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RE: Argument for private property [Aristotle]
Gain is obtained by giving a lot and keeping a little.
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02-01-2013, 04:22 PM Post: #28
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RE: Argument for private property [Aristotle]
It seems to me that altruism is a characteristic more than a prescription. Once certain bonds are made, the human kind, with complex give-gets-and-takes, altruism sometimes springs up as a natural development. It goes according to the diplomatic soul, that I know of, which gives as an honor from knowing the pleasure of receiving. It can be a selective tool to use between friends, enemies, master-slaves, lovers... You name it.

Within a political sphere, it is my belief that all state-based approaches are inherently based on lordship, and thus unacceptable to me unless I am lord, and even then... In any case, it seems to me that altruism is an essential component of any system involving numbers of people with 0's that aren't seeking to obtain a certain high grade of discipline.

Now, to suggest that altruism is the driving force behind any politics... Something stinks here of a cover-up. I have written a nice juicy essay on it, but let's just say we can all agree that benevolence (read: altruism) is a very observable trick of every single autocrat.
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02-19-2013, 03:32 AM (This post was last modified: 02-19-2013 03:33 AM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #29
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RE: Argument for private property [Aristotle]
Do we really "own" anything, including our bodes or minds? It seems to me a correct human economy, founded as is the stated desire here on correct ontology, would have to more precisely articulate what ownership is, what it means, in what contexts it manifests and how and why. It seems more correct to state that we never "own" anything but rather things are distributed, apportioned, given into existence or consumed as part of a process thereby, such process involving a number of participants and conditioning factors. We as "individual" are a site by which things are given to change, move, become (re)constituted or consumed. Where is the rational justification for concluding, based solely on this being-a-site-ness, that things are "owned"? Upon what rests this idea, very strange to me, that we "own ourselves"?

A correct economy and morality must be as firmly grounded in deep, concrete and accurate ontology as possible. To me, a huge problem causal to so much economic and moral problems is how easily we throw around the concept of "right" to "ownership". Things are, they move and change, people are sites at which this often takes place. Can this not be a sufficient ground?

I don't know the answer, that's why I ask. But careless or casual use of the concept of ownership always raises red flags with me, rather so-called individual or communal ownership.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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02-24-2013, 11:13 PM (This post was last modified: 02-24-2013 11:16 PM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #30
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RE: Argument for private property [Aristotle]
(02-19-2013 03:32 AM)ChainOfBeing Wrote:
Do we really "own" anything, including our bodes or minds? It seems to me a correct human economy, founded as is the stated desire here on correct ontology, would have to more precisely articulate what ownership is, what it means, in what contexts it manifests and how and why. It seems more correct to state that we never "own" anything but rather things are distributed, apportioned, given into existence or consumed as part of a process thereby, such process involving a number of participants and conditioning factors. We as "individual" are a site by which things are given to change, move, become (re)constituted or consumed. Where is the rational justification for concluding, based solely on this being-a-site-ness, that things are "owned"? Upon what rests this idea, very strange to me, that we "own ourselves"?

It is not so much about ontology but about creating a ground for noble action. Consciousness thrives on the sort of "illusions" like knowledge and ownership. Most mental stimulants are objectively ungrounded, but as long as they enhance self-valuing, they support ontological reality even if they do not logically derive from them. Property is a means.

Quote:
A correct economy and morality must be as firmly grounded in deep, concrete and accurate ontology as possible. To me, a huge problem causal to so much economic and moral problems is how easily we throw around the concept of "right" to "ownership". Things are, they move and change, people are sites at which this often takes place. Can this not be a sufficient ground?

I think rather that they should ground ontology. They should serve being, not try to dissect it and objectify it. Ironically, often to formulate reality is to dissect it and thus to undo it. Compare to cutting apart a human body to observe how life works in an attempt to know "what it is". Part of the power of value ontology is that it accepts the 'motivation of being' as the deepest philosophical principle, as the point where ontology becomes an action, an ethics, where man becomes a true agent instead of something subjected to ''his nature''.

Quote:
I don't know the answer, that's why I ask. But careless or casual use of the concept of ownership always raises red flags with me, rather so-called individual or communal ownership.

We must first accept the princiople before we can refine it.

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RE: Argument for private property [Aristotle]
Agreed on all points. But does this then remove any need to further explore the ontic status of ownership or property? I think it may often be the case that supplementing our value-ontological notions, themselves subjectively self-sustaining and ontologically enabling, with greater "objectivity" or ontic grounding will enhance the efficacy and reality of these values. Of course you are right that too much dissection will destroy them. But a more powerful self-valuing is capable of sustaining greater potentially destructive self-analysis, and I see this as one standard of measure of the self-valuing itself, and of its subjectivity and power.
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02-28-2013, 06:40 AM (This post was last modified: 02-28-2013 06:51 AM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #32
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RE: Argument for private property [Aristotle]
(02-28-2013 04:16 AM)ChainOfBeing Wrote:
Agreed on all points. But does this then remove any need to further explore the ontic status of ownership or property? I think it may often be the case that supplementing our value-ontological notions, themselves subjectively self-sustaining and ontologically enabling, with greater "objectivity" or ontic grounding will enhance the efficacy and reality of these values. Of course you are right that too much dissection will destroy them. But a more powerful self-valuing is capable of sustaining greater potentially destructive self-analysis, and I see this as one standard of measure of the self-valuing itself, and of its subjectivity and power.

I think that this is a matter of tasks, missions, an area where we must choose our work. I personally feel that I work best, at least for now, as a radical conservative value ontologist - drawing everything into its core. I can not at once do this and also work with objectivity. VO is clearly able to work very well with tectonics, and I have so far also worked well with James S Saint, who is a dedicated 'objectivist' and his RM - but it is of vital importance for me to stay centered in the thought of the irreducible subject. If you have time, perhaps watch the Baudrillard talk Pezer posted. In segment 5 he speaks of the subject and its (lost) symbolic order. I believe that not all is lost. Value Ontology is the rescuing thought, and my own subjective-creative order reflects its veracity to me, as it has constantly proven to be incompatible with the modern order of individuals and their 'orderly' differences.

This might also be why I am so radical in rejecting Islam - the mere fact of radical rejection, of refusal to exist in the same realm, apparently vitalizes the possibility of singularity.[/quote]

Why the word "Good" is blasphemous
Kind, sweet, nice, strong, appropriate, tasty, morally impressive, nutritious, fast, steady, smooth, supple - good for use in task x.

"Good" as judgment is qualitative to a perceived goal.

"Good in-itself" is gibberish and sign to a lost ethics, "you are a good man" - is a wrongful remark, given my someone who can no longer judge from subjectivity, but only from some objectified, petrified, set in stone mould.

Good for me, right here, right now - or then and there. Or: good for you, now, then, here, then -

and sometimes - that is a useful trait.
Strength. Intelligence. Beauty.
But how it is applied?

Can 'good' be applied to 'evil'? What total nonsense.

Good at x for A can be applied to ruin B. Good at y for B can be applied to counter A's x-virtue.

Spinoza: "virtue equals capacity".
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04-23-2013, 02:04 AM Post: #2
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RE: Why the word "Good" is blasphemous
(03-09-2013 07:42 AM)Fixed Cross Wrote:
Kind, sweet, nice, strong, appropriate, tasty, morally impressive, nutritious, fast, steady, smooth, supple - good for use in task x.

"Good" as judgment is qualitative to a perceived goal.

"Good in-itself" is gibberish and sign to a lost ethics, "you are a good man" - is a wrongful remark, given my someone who can no longer judge from subjectivity, but only from some objectified, petrified, set in stone mould.

Good for me, right here, right now - or then and there. Or: good for you, now, then, here, then -

and sometimes - that is a useful trait.
Strength. Intelligence. Beauty.
But how it is applied?

Can 'good' be applied to 'evil'? What total nonsense.

Good at x for A can be applied to ruin B. Good at y for B can be applied to counter A's x-virtue.

Spinoza: "virtue equals capacity".

"Good" also functions as a lingustic object, meant to regulate speech. When someone says, "Sure that would be good" or "This is good" regardless of to what they are referring is usually meant merely as an utterance lacking any deeper meaning than to validate the social exchange-value between two or more people. This itself is not problematic however it is symbolic of the problem you identify, which is a big problem indeed.

That the word "good" is used so universally and thus able to lend itself to this regulative linguistic-social role is troubling. Do you think more ancient peoples, or perhaps even going back 100 years, used the word good like we do? I doubt it. We over-use the word to the point where English professors remove points from student papers whenever they use the word, its excessivity renders it largely meaningless... however, the word itself is not meaningless, what is really objectionable (to the professors) is how the student is unwilling to contextualize properly his or her thought, to define the good and why/how it is so. "Good, because..." is the proper formula.

It's almost as if we have lost our ability to generate proper context even for our own desires, and so throw around the generic category term "good" to cover up this loss.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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04-23-2013, 02:46 AM Post: #3
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RE: Why the word "Good" is blasphemous
Well, when you start considering that all words belong to a long-standing tyrannical order; flinging shit at it is a good plebian response.

A good philosopher's response (and yes... sadly I think that philosophy, too, is something to be overcome, but am not sure) is Fixed Cross'.

"I feel good." I. Feel. Good. I, Descartes and even God himself behind I. Feel, as the Sith have taught me to accept little by little. Good... All of the previous centuries have had conclusions of where health leads, and I will use the diamond from that coal.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"

Die Welt als Wille und Vorstellung
Power has always been separate of imagination - imagination only a key to the ignition of power. But the times have changed, not truth but value stands central - truth is conditional to it - or so we tell ourselves. This decision to decide on value ontology is itself the reversal in the philosophical (which since Nietzsche means physiological) process. If it is not properly subjectifying, it will not work. Ontology must be rooted in value, otherwise it is impotent in the hands of the returning Titan, who distinguishes something from Nothing by time.

Truth is timeless, it is thus dead. Imagination is will. Logic is mediation between the two. Logic shall serve faithfully its own power. But it must be made to be, by subjecting it to will - imagination - "Hope" is what the logician calls it. It's occult name is "Action".

Sap
Dark is where we still dwell, a forest-pool of depth, Diana's realm. Apollo can not yet be born. The full Sun of philosophy can only rise in action, when the hordes have been mobilized.

The Chariot of Light -
I serve at the pleasure of the the red horizon.

Pre-Eminence, morning star.

Will is representation. Wear masks. Seek out contradiction. Provoke. The age of Horus is the age of the Child.
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03-05-2013, 02:40 PM Post: #2
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RE: Theatre of Truth
Quote:

Reminds me if that scene from The Mask where he's talking to Ben Stein.
"I said I was going to get to your calls but...look."
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03-07-2013, 07:11 AM (This post was last modified: 03-07-2013 07:23 AM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #3
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RE: Theatre of Truth
Don't recall the scene but that was an entertaining film.
Actually I meant something more like this.

Ah you mean this

Quote:
This is an interesting place.
Looks like fourth- or fifth-century Scandinavian.
Possibly a representation of one of the Norse night gods, maybe Loki.
Loki?
Who is Loki?
The Norse god of mischief.
Supposedly he caused such trouble that Odin banished him from Valhalla forever.
Then he could have banished him into that mask.
I'm talking about mythology, Mr. Ipkiss.
This is a piece of wood.
A metaphor, not to be taken literally.
You suffer from a mild delusion.
Alright.
I'll prove it to you.

Loki... I actually had that as my ILP name a long time ago. The alias seems to have been deleted.
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03-07-2013, 08:08 AM (This post was last modified: 03-07-2013 09:09 AM by Gobbo.) Post: #4
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RE: Theatre of Truth
The two scenes are somewhat similar. Carey being in a role that puts on a mask again and again, and 'goes to work.'

I've been told that my voice online is fairly close to mine IRL, but as one of the members of the Pirate Bay says in their documentary AFK, "We use the term AFK because we consider the internet to be part of real life." But yet these people all have their online handles.

I think there is the sense in which having an online persona is becoming just a part of the experience. When you are online you are yourself, but you are also something else.

Quote:
I should warn you that I don't work personally with really sick people.
There are private institutions for those things.

lol
Also, Hey Pachuco! And by that I mean literally the hottest Cameron Diaz has ever, and will ever look.

It's sort of like - what is a viral phenomenon? Or better put, what is the closest approximation to one that you could find in reality? Spontaneous social things such as those don't really occur, and it's likely due to the speed in which information travels outside of the internet.

But even if that is the case, what is does it mean to have something go viral. What is the real mechanism there? The internet is very much a hive mind it seems like in the human one, there are things that can take on a life of their own. If it's happening at the mass level, then you know it's happening in part within. So we come back to this question of what it means to put on the mask, and whether or not it's an integral part of what drives the engine of ingenuity online. If everything was transparent things might not be so full of life.
I think that is why net neutrality means so much to people. They sense this.

This is sort of a flawed example but for example say I'm constantly monitored. I might not go/wouldn't be able to go to 4chan because of pedo stuff (posted presumably by people hiding behind many proxies just like it is now). Even though I don't go to /b/, and instead /g/. At /g/ at least there are people who are on the bleeding heart of technology. Sometimes you can find those diamonds in the rough, and sometimes those diamonds mean the difference between some revolutionary thing. We're on the verge of losing that, and I think even the big companies like google understand this to some degree. They are monitoring everything but they do it in a way where people are comfortable (enough) with how it's handled. It gives the illusion of privacy. Who knows, these constant attacks in the Senate against our rights could just be the smoke screen to make us think we still have some. But, I digress.

The point is, I think that's why places like 4chan and reddit are so popular. Anyone can just instantly start being anything they want to be. This masks topic is actually quite important. I will think on it some more.

Quote:
But what can I do?
Do I go as myself or The Mask?
If I tell you, you promise to leave my office right now?
Go as yourself and as The Mask.
It would be cool to see something proposed that was something along the lines of this:

You get a public profile
You get a private (non)profile

Each industry and interest group works on each, with the awareness that there will be aspects of each group that occupy people's lives. I mean you could argue that is exactly what occurs right now, and I think it is functionally but maybe not consciously. I think some people are trying to exploit the internet, basically, and that's just by not giving anything back to it. Their information for anything; and others aren't aware that they don't need to broadcast so much of, if not their entire lives online for different groups to then exploit with laws that try and make that type of thing mandatory.

What do you guys think? I doubt anyone here thinks that total transparency is what is desired or required, but should total anonymity be looked at in the same way? You know? I don't mind making my choices known, or revealing a part of myself if I feel like it and want to. It's all about communication in some way or another.
"I said I was going to get to your calls but...look."
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03-07-2013, 10:25 AM (This post was last modified: 03-07-2013 10:29 AM by pezer.) Post: #5
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RE: Theatre of Truth
We all found each other in a website called ilovephilosophy. There were certain pre-suppositions going in. A big one is that your name, your identity, your self, those are things you notice early on are completely unessential and even obtrusive to good philosophy.

It turns out that the site was a horrible sin against philsophy, but what isn't?

These masks, forged in our moments of peak honesty in this endeavor, will serve us well. The only real reason we might have any interest in revealing who we are AFK is for logistics of some operation, or I guess cojones points. Really, though, it's undeniable that there is a strong intention behind the identities we choose for ourselves, perhaps we should listen to our own intentions instead of submitting to what Uncle Tom, of all institutions, would like us to become.
And yeah, that was Cameron Diaz at her very hottest. Damn, she looked fine.

I would say best, but her role in Vanilla Sky was her best.
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03-08-2013, 08:24 AM Post: #6
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RE: Theatre of Truth
"What can the army do about simulators? Traditionally it unmasks them and punishes them, according to a clear principle of identification. Today it can discharge a very good simulator as exactly equivalent to a "real" homosexual, a heart patient, or a madman. Even military psychology draws back from Cartesian certainties and hesitates to make the distinction between true and false, between the "produced" and the authentic symptom. "If he is this good at acting crazy, it's because he is." Nor is military psychology mistaken in this regard: in this sense, all crazy people simulate, and this lack of distinction is the worst kind of subversion. It is against this lack of distinction that classical reason armed itself in all its categories. But it is what today again outflanks them, submerging the principle of truth."

[Jean Baudrillard, Simulacra and Simulation]

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03-08-2013, 10:06 AM Post: #7
pezer Offline
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RE: Theatre of Truth
I must take it one step further and suggest that the traditions that allowed for the propagation of reason have only shown as inevitably true so far the only thing it really can in and of itself: that it makes sense within itself as concept and process.

We have the technology today to beat cartesianism and the government, to outrun them. Their entire PR strategy right now is to get you to ignore that fact for as long as they can so that they can have time to build something durable and lasting, but mostly durable.

Maybe there is a parallel here between the twilight of Jupiter and the twilight of the age of reason.
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03-08-2013, 07:31 PM (This post was last modified: 03-08-2013 07:36 PM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #8
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RE: Theatre of Truth
The age of reason makes way for the age of value.
The castrated Jupiter makes way for the Olympic Jupiter.
Our structures will break away the anti-structures of the reason of castration/abstraction. Our structures are built only with value, never with derivatives.
Our structures will take millennia to overtake the Earth, but from day one they have been a celebration of their victory.

This was the power of every mighty nation when it was increasing, when it was truly powerful - a continuous celebration of its victory, a perpetual establishing of its worth-to-itself. Such is the natural instinct of power - self-valuing => value-bestowing. But this instinct has , seemingly, never been understood, thus never been implemented as a systemic formal cause.

Value ontology is the constitution of the philosophical state, the one Plato could only dream of.
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03-09-2013, 03:24 AM Unread post Post: #9
pezer Offline
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RE: Theatre of Truth
http://philoctetes.free.fr/parmenidesunicode.htm

RE: Confession of a value ontologist
Ah -
Well -
That could work as well. I would like to do both a film and a book. Fortunately that means that the film doesn't have to be about RM. If indeed there is a term on which Pezer, Gobbo, Tom and I can work.

Just to consider... there's two places to start - a character or an opening to explicating the theory.
A "girl opening a door to reveal a mirror" or a "the world is will to power", an "action equals reaction", "existence equals affectance", an "being is self-valuing/valuing in terms of self", or so forth.

A good philosophical book contains many explicit examples of the proposed theory. Nietzsche excelled in this, it is why he admired Dostoyevski. Psychology is often the creation of examples to suit the theory, but with real ethics, the theory pours out of the healing process. So there would have to be plot-lines alongside with 'geometry', all the forms of logical science. And characters, and dialogue.

Do you think the book should have dialogue?
Since we come from a forum environment, this may not be stupid at all.
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03-12-2013, 11:25 AM (This post was last modified: 03-12-2013 12:10 PM by JSS.) Post: #32
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RE: Confession of a value ontologist
Well, if it isn't about RM, I don't see how you would need me (other than maybe a critic and a psychological/social engineering adviser). Hollywood will not produce anything that doesn't fit their psychological profile sufficiently. And they aren't alone in that regard.

The book should begin with an architecture, not a dialog. A story line is typically made from a sketch, not a finished work.

Most of your time should be spent deciding on the fundamental architecture (always clear the path before you act). That means consider the options for basic scenario. What exactly do you want to convey, and realize that the first effort doesn't have to say everything. One or two basic concepts is fine.

Once that is done, you start filling in the empty pages with characters, adventures, scenes, colors, and dialog.
Actually I thought of a good film for you to preview and rewrite into your own concerns.. Wanted.

Quote:
Wanted is a 2008 German-American action film, very loosely based on the comic book miniseries of the same name by Mark Millar and J. G. Jones. The film is written by Chris Morgan, Michael Brandt, and Derek Haas, directed by Timur Bekmambetov, and stars James McAvoy, Angelina Jolie, Morgan Freeman, Thomas Kretschmann, Common, Terence Stamp, and Konstantin Khabensky. The storyline follows Wesley Gibson (McAvoy), a frustrated Account Manager who discovers that he is the son of a professional assassin and decides to join The Fraternity, a secret guild in which his father worked.

Production began in April 2007, with filming in the Czech Republic later to superimpose the sets on images of Chicago. Wanted was released on June 25, 2008 in the United Kingdom and two days later in the United States, to both critical and commercial success. It was nominated for two Academy Awards: Best Sound Editing and Best Sound Mixing.

What brought it to mind is the fact that the main character found himself as a worthless loser not knowing what his own value is, but then discovered that he could changed that. And he discovered it by a variety of changes in what really counts and what doesn't in his life.
And that film scenario fits well into the VO or PHT concern.
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03-12-2013, 12:36 PM (This post was last modified: 03-12-2013 12:38 PM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #33
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RE: Confession of a value ontologist
The only worth I have lost is time.
What matters in my personal life, livelihood, friendships, health, love life, and ethical ideals is filmmaking.

RM explored from a VO perspective is a subject for a book and documentary, an animation based film to enter the market of this sort of thing, which is highly influential among young people starved for any kind of knowledge they can value. You/we have to find a way to push Jack into heavier computing. I don't know a lot of programmers and animators, Gobbo might.

The point would be to make people value RM as it is. To have them grow toward a rationalmetaphysical life-method - by evoking their highest self in the imagery representing RM.
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03-12-2013, 12:51 PM (This post was last modified: 03-12-2013 01:33 PM by JSS.) Post: #34
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RE: Confession of a value ontologist
Emmm.. that cartoon film... No!.

The point that I was trying to make was far more live in action scenario where the characters were displaying the concepts due to their situation. And then in the Pulp Fiction type style, perhaps some intellectual speaking the concepts to himself as he scratched his head trying to figure it all out.

A cartoon character giving a lecture, seriously doesn't cut it.
Watch Wanted (for value incentive) and Pulp Fiction (for style concerning multiple facets). Those two represent things that are probably significant to making a good film on these kinds of concepts.

Btw, this is the last remaining pic in the world of the guy you have been talking to (not counting CCTV and security camera footage).
[Image: James.jpg]
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03-12-2013, 01:42 PM Post: #35
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RE: Confession of a value ontologist
Still you haven't answered the question about time. Sometimes, you deflect questions. Lie with Jesus, recently... going in and out of the picture almost unnoticed.

VO explains Jesus' sacrifice. He loved all the world in terms of himself, so if the world would go to shit and he'd live, he'd suffer into death. If he'd die so the world be loved would be saved by that (if only in his own mind, and the minds of his disciples (those who valued him in terms of themselves more than they valued their old lives) then he would suffer less loss of identity, self-valuing, will to power, "perceived hope".

This gives me the answer to the question I asked. RM's subject is not valuing his own momentum of self-harmony as much as he values the expectation he has of the world that he perceives, and values. The calculation is not with himself, but with his role in the world, his making-the-world-his-own, whether that be in thought, in emotions or in actual physical fact. In Jesus case, the emotions spawned the physical fact, and the thought has been wholly empathic. In the case of Buddha, the thought killed the emotional self-valuing and resulted in the physiological resolution of tension into realization of dissolution of one identity to relieve and feed a stronger one. Buddha would have been as happy with one plant following him as with the whole world of men, as his love was for the principle, the fact of peace. Dionysos is the eruption of value itself, and the realization that in fact valuing is ex-terminis, out-of-terms with the self, "hero torn to pieces" - by his maenadic values. The pure difference between the Gods self-valuing and the objects of his bestowing love - what a feast of excess! And as a God, the God is eternal so his suffering is endured and spills meaning as lifeblood to nature in all her forms.

I can explain all irrational human acts in the blink of an eye, without using words like 'illusion' or 'error' or 'foolishness' - my philosophy is rather Buddhist where yours is Jesuit - I love the principle, and every single thing that expresses it, you love the human, mental-grammatical-algebraic principle, and try to save it from itself by explaining it to itself.

Only the beauty of this spectacle compels me to unite with it, not the wish that humanity is saved in this way. I am willing to give you a chance to save the world, though I would always keep a certain distance to entertain the relation with the irrational, the world of ideas greater than man, divine self-valuing.

Not at the cost of death. No, that exact death landed on my lawn in the form of the most admired lyricist (value creator) and I have been set on the path of reason then. Martyrs die for the values that they require for their identity. Identity is entwined with experience like chicken and egg forming consistency, reality, actuality Dasein, building, cultivating, growing sowing reaping enjoying-being. The martyr reaches the end of the cycle by projecting a value he can not attain in the flesh, and sacrificing his life for the conviction of reaching this value. There is the whole of the third Abrahamic religion.

The major religions have been explained now except one. The Jews are explained in by far the most simple way: we matter to us. It is the most human religion left on the planet, as all others have resulted from the Jewish God becoming Universal, Jesus. (mans 'chauvinist' insistence on man-as-he-is as the ultimate value, forgiveness (for not being Jewish - haha! no, but... - red) as the ultimate and primary virtue). It is thus also the most simplistically egoistic religion. I'm saying give these sons of bitches their one fucking temple and this whole charade is over with, in the blink of an eye, or ten years maximum. As long as it takes for Jews to invest generously in Palestine to make them business partners in their own religion, which at that point will have been unwritten.

Now do you see, JSS, Q? Catch you my drift? Can you see why the Zionists can not be beaten except by their own, real, Messianic final resolution?

Only the Jews have a Salvation that does not involve the end of the world. Only they valued at least one type of man, themselves naturally, as worthy of existing in the flesh next to God. They made a small sacrifice - circumcision - to admit to 'reason', a principle of clarity over animal nature. Other than that, no hell that is not also on Earth (and they have known) and no heaven that is not also on Earth (as they have not known). I say give the bloody bastards their very reasonably priced heaven.

No Palestinian needs to die for this to happen. Naturally, the more Palestinians die, the less likely that temple is to come about. It needs to be an effort by progressive muslims and Jews. But an extremely progressive effort, as religion only works if it is extremely restrictive or progressive.

Progression collapses in new worse restriction immediately if purposeful reason is not involved in what sparked the progression. The explosion of progression collapses onto a skeleton of an ideal. The Obelisk, the Pyramid, the early forms on which a renewed politics of life was consolidated. Once the row of columns was placed, we were born. I mean this far advanced, very particular highly refined, almost irrationally lucky beast, which came to understand and create itself by realizing proportion as the ground to "good" - health and beauty, courage and results, pleasure and tragedy, pride and reverence, man and god.

Ma (Jack) can perhaps build the first steps of the universe from the ground up, but he can not build himself. Unless Jack is now full circle in its own recreation in metaspace, with you as its last agent, of course. Top down approach is required to approach the very beginnings of re-creation, to guide them to a purpose. This purpose can not be formulated in the terms it addresses. So it must be 'irrational' - or 'pre-rational' - archaic -- exoterically (visibly), myth precedes logic, even though the logic was always meant to be inferred by the act of preceding it with an ideal.

In terms of "perception of hope and threat" the continuation of the world as he knows it after his death is what matters to man most. Depending on the type of man, he values more the world which he departs or his own imagined continuation (and reunion with lost ones) in a world he imagines, but values no less. Science can not convince him who believes that science proves it is the devil by working in the world of sin and flesh. But his sense of self-worth can convince him of everything.
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03-12-2013, 02:02 PM (This post was last modified: 03-12-2013 02:04 PM by JSS.) Post: #36
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RE: Confession of a value ontologist
"Still you haven't answered the question about time. Sometimes, you deflect questions. Lie with Jesus"

What in the Hell are you talking about???
You keep this up and I'm going to have to mark you down as Bipolar.

"Too much smoke, not enough mirror."
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03-12-2013, 08:14 PM (This post was last modified: 03-12-2013 08:16 PM by JSS.) Post: #37
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RE: Confession of a value ontologist
Another scenario thought to consider involves a magical prediction machine (Jack-son) that some geek has worked out such that he can personally use it concerning other people in his life and does so. The theory can be relayed merely as snippets between he and a friend helping him with it. The adventure would involve the fun but often dangerous antics he causes in other people's lives. When you can predict people, you can cause them to believe almost anything and thus do almost anything you wish for them to do. But being a good god isn't so easy. "From Geek to God".

RM: Equation of Space
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03-12-2013, 08:50 PM Post: #38
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RE: Confession of a value ontologist
(03-12-2013 10:48 AM)Fixed Cross Wrote:
(03-12-2013 10:47 AM)JSS Wrote:
Appeal is the aim??

Sex, BoB, Feminism, Adventure, Conflict, Hero, Happy ending.
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
- Thucydides

see it now?

Thunderbolt steers all things.
- Heraclitus

Fixed Cross
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### Re: New Moon Ashes

Q Offline
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RE: (de)Calcification of the Pineal Gland
How could this be a Canadian only thing?
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?
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03-23-2013, 12:13 PM Post: #27
Q Offline
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RE: (de)Calcification of the Pineal Gland
Or was that a joke? Everyone submits to an authority. We're just chill people because we like weed.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?
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03-24-2013, 10:02 PM (This post was last modified: 03-24-2013 10:03 PM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #28
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RE: (de)Calcification of the Pineal Gland
Very interesting. I asked you about the Japanese - that's explained quite well, I'd say. Many far eastern men do have the androgynous quality, to the point of the Thai, who seem to have all but lost the distinction between man and woman. Thanks, this is a great piece of information.
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03-25-2013, 02:54 AM Post: #29
pezer Offline
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RE: (de)Calcification of the Pineal Gland
Canada has never really experienced a deep questioning of authority. No ideological or religious wars to speak of, no territorial wars of great magnitude, completely chill attitude towards the natives... Canadians just take authority for granted. If you apply that standard of power for hundreds of years, guys eventually start to forget what testosterone even is.

Not because we are Canadian, and I'm putting myself in at this point, but because history happens. The US was there to take care of real territorial or native threats, no other neighbors to worry about, no real bad experiences with the Crown, no strong ideological contradictions that couldn't be easily maintained... It happens. Maybe it is me who has to learn to stop fussing about power...!

Fact remains, where you see manipulations of nutrition, I see dynamics of authority.

Some Venezuelan natives, too, get to be indistinguishable man from woman sometimes, but the Canadian case isn't genetic like that, I don't think. More hormonal, likely.
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03-25-2013, 05:26 AM Post: #30
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RE: (de)Calcification of the Pineal Gland
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?

pezer Offline
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RE: (de)Calcification of the Pineal Gland
Sometimes, I just love my awareness of my own unawareness.

In any case, my mind is already making links between the threat of a derailment of that Canadian system I described and the power of chemical companies to manipulate your hormones. It doesn't, for that reason, discard the possibility of it being a random product of petroleum industrialization.

That's what I like about Power philosophies... they are very trackable. Maybe that is their weakness, too.
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03-25-2013, 06:53 AM Post: #32
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RE: (de)Calcification of the Pineal Gland
I think it's both.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?

___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides

You may not realize it
we have a truth, a power. Distilled from ILP, international alliance, philosophy, secret service, occultism, science - all we need now to power is art, a form, in which we, each, - fill in verb. Then ten years of development, independent, occasionally together. The mere fact of the thought of a void to fill is power. The void is extreme. There never was such a wide void, not on Earth, not since ape became man.
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03-23-2013, 07:04 AM Post: #2
Q Offline
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RE: You may.not realize it
That is a bold statement.

.... I like it.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?
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03-23-2013, 08:06 PM Post: #3
BigTom Offline
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RE: You may.not realize it
You're right, but at this time of day all that's coming to mind is 'void' jokes.
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03-25-2013, 08:18 AM Post: #4
ChainOfBeing Offline
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RE: You may not realize it
The problem is how large the void is, how slowly it has been accumulated without any answer. To fill it now would seem an impossible task.

I don't know how to have hope anymore. I mean, to have hope has basically become to deny the reality of things. So, what does one do with that? We can acclaim what Zizek and Badiou write about having hope for hope's sake, this being the truly "radical" act, but c'mon. We all know that is a bunch of bullshit.

We suffer from a lack of practical, real steps to take at this juncture. This is not a small problem, and we should not underestimate it in favor of good-feeling platitudes or faith-based idealism, however well-intended and "potentially potentiating" it may be.

We have power, but what is that power? Let us define it, first of all. The "enemy" counts on nothing so much as our own unfocused zeal.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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03-25-2013, 08:20 AM Post: #5
pezer Offline
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RE: You may not realize it
We have a couple of things brewing in this forum. This is no ILP, or even BTL.

Don't hope. Never hope.

Just... Expect the unexpected.
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03-25-2013, 09:20 AM Post: #6
Q Offline
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RE: You may not realize it
The power lies in the amorphous. The blob that is the internet.

Say what you want about 'Anonymous,' it is a concept that cannot really be killed, and we are a part of that here even if we in no way align ourselves with the group.

Humans swarm. As long as the internet stays open, we shouldn't need much of a plan other than to just keep operating without one. Expect us. After all, the underlying commonality between everyone here, and a good majority of the people alive, is that they are kind of vaguely opposed to the current power structure.

When forums get big enough they send in their disinfo squads, but those disinfo squads have a tough time on places like 4chan because there is no leader. All they have left to do is just paste disgusting pictures or something along those lines. That is somewhat what I want this place to be like.

All these emergent elements that exist online are the future, and all their planes are based on psychological theory that, while still relevant, was largely formulated last century. Any organization - but especially these huge corporate structures and global conglomerate think tanks - is going to have a hard time keeping up with the speed at which the internet changes and adapts. Kissinger and other people say they are behind something like ten years. The internet is why. I would imagine it's awfully hard to data model something like the effect of the internet before it exists. I know they intended it to be used as an information gathering tool, but I don't think they could have anticipated how it would go. It's almost getting comical now how they keep trying to shut down the net but it prevents them from doing so almost automatically.

No one is in control of this thing. Order from chaos. We use their tactics along with some of our own.

Lights out.

How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?
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03-26-2013, 02:26 AM (This post was last modified: 03-26-2013 02:31 AM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #7
ChainOfBeing Offline
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RE: You may not realize it
How long do you think the internet will remain "open"?

To generate in you a feeling of power, naive belief based on, really... nothing... is perhaps the gravest threat of all. The internet is perhaps the greatest weapon against you, your greatest weakness because it generates in you such immense feelings of power when in fact all you're doing is---sitting in a chair staring at a screen.

So where is your power? I mean, really? I am genuinely curious. Show me. If you cannot, then I offer that you are merely already a powerless and self-deceived pawn, well trained to stare passively into the Tele-screen.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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03-26-2013, 05:24 AM (This post was last modified: 03-26-2013 05:24 AM by pezer.) Post: #8
pezer Offline
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RE: You may not realize it
We seek to make the terrain so that a philosopher like you can have something to enjoy 100 years from now.
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03-26-2013, 05:26 AM (This post was last modified: 03-26-2013 05:28 AM by pezer.) Post: #9
pezer Offline
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RE: You may not realize it
If our first steps are lumbering, it is a measure of our awareness of how delicate is this task. If they seem delusional, it is a measure of what we have chosen, and expect no one to understand who doesn't already.
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03-26-2013, 05:29 AM Post: #10
Q Offline
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RE: You may not realize it
Obviously if the internet goes down we're fucked. Read my post again and you tell me if what I read really has to be applied to the internet, on the internet. What I said is that the emergent phenomena we've seen as a result of the internet is our true power.

The revolution has already been formed worldwide. Now that we know how humans can operate, even if they bring it down it won't matter. We've already learned what we have to learn. They meant for it to go down long ago, and despite their best attempts, they cannot seem to get it to go down. The new private internet has been up and ready to go for like 5-years or whatever. They've had like 3 SOPAs. You tell me if you think they have it all under control.

Honestly, I don't think you really read my post. Do you know how many people we've/I've seen with the same attitude like yours where you disavow talking to people online - while talking to people online? What are you doing in the real world? Organizing some militia? lol. Even if the net goes down, the real fight will be online anyway. The reason you struggle to find this 'plan of operation' is because you are even bothering to look in the first place.

You need to fundamentally reconsider a couple thinks I think. No one is going to give you the plan, dude. The plan is to eat healthy, stay alive, and stay connected. The rest is automatic. My suggestion would be to learn about setting up a LAN in your city, or figuring out where and how what invariably will be a local internet can be found and accessed.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?

RE: You may not realize it
Quote:
So where is your power? I mean, really? I am genuinely curious. Show me. If you cannot, then I offer that you are merely already a powerless and self-deceived pawn, well trained to stare passively into the Tele-screen.

For me it's programming. It's awfully hard to control someone with technology if they have a better control on that technology.

They use computers against us, and 'they' don't even understand computers. I am born into it.

I use a special version of chrome with the tracking parts ripped out. I have multiple encrypted emails. I don't need to pay for software. etc. etc. I have tons of PDFs I have acquired from one source or another, and if I want to learn about another subject I can just get more, for free, even if they are restricted. There is very little information I can't find in one way or another if I really put my mind to it. And if I can't, I can usually find someone else who has found what I need.

You may sit and stare at a screen. I sit and stare at another world where the possibilities are endless. That's my power. Maybe yours is throwing axes at trees. We all have our specialties.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?
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03-26-2013, 05:46 AM Post: #12
Q Offline
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RE: You may not realize it
What is your power? Do you have anything to share or are you just some naysayer?
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?
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03-26-2013, 09:38 AM Post: #13
Fixed Cross Offline
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RE: You may not realize it
Despite Chain being my philosophical bloodbrother, I side with Pezer and Q here. The internet, and this place as a representation, works, adds to evolution. Imagine, 2 years ago, that this would have worked. I would have been surprised to learn of this situation then. The progress we've made is not very visible to us yet, right now. Evolution is blind.

If you read my post on ILP in the Academy (no real need to, and if, just read the first couple of paragraphs) that I had on the front page here, in the beginning - the Creative Tyranny. I mean what it takes to bind elements together.

As contrary as we are, we - choose to be here. And this place, as Pezer says, is slightly different from the other places. What did not work on BTL (and surely never was even intended with ILP) might and does seem to begin to work here. And even ILP is a great step forward considering the chaos of normal human written interchange.

What's crucial for a structure is that its elements find value in each other. And this can not be faked. It is hard for Q to find value in Chain and vice versa. This value does seem to exist, though, as both are philosophers in the sense of not shunning confrontation, putting up with misunderstanding, challenging, keeping with it.

Something is brewing indeed. And this forum is young. BTL was a successful experiment as far as I'm concerned. From my perspective, this is the next step.

Perhaps we may publish a poem by Abstract on the front page. It's just a suggestion. You may not realize it, but this community is a community, and powerful influences have already been born and bred here. As I said we need art to bind this together. Q had understood this from the outset. I look forward to the moment when the leaders here (and I profoundly respect them and their choices a and the time they need) will choose to begin to publish on the front page.

For a short while, as Q and I fell apart because of the divisive subject of religion and race which I have no desire right now to ever address again, the project seemed to have failed. Thankfully fresh blood was brewing.

I never lost faith in Q or NWO - just in my own value to the projects continuation. Now this faith is returning.

Magic is realer than reason. Magic, of course, being "love under will".
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03-26-2013, 09:39 AM Post: #14
Q Offline
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RE: You may not realize it
One of the things I've learned the more that I learn is that this is still relatively the Wild West in terms of technology. The internet is a wide open place with little restriction. Everything may be monitored but it's just stored somewhere. So what? That only matters if we allow laws to be changed such that just talking normally is illegal.

To be quite frank, I don't even care if I'm recorded when it comes to most things. It's kind of how e-commerce works nowadays. Old people balk at how younger people share so much of themselves online but they don't get it: that is how things will work from now on, and what allows for many of the cool things that people seem to enjoy doing. Not mindless people. Pretty much everyone. Look at Youtube.

Regardless of whether or not there is some power conglomerate that is looking to enslave the earth, people will share their lives. It's in our nature to share, we were just given the medium to do it. People will use computers of some sort because self-awareness is intrinsically linked to technology.

And people will always revolt because no one likes being enslaved -- the question is, with that acknowledged, what happens now? I feel like if you were part of 'that' type of resistance you would be in an IRC chat room scheming on how to bring down the next senator or something with a Guy Fawks mask on. If you were part of it, you would know, and if you want to be there is nothing stopping you. Plus there is nothing mutually exclusive between that, and then also being here.

What attracts people, energy, and ideas these days is the platform not the chant of the army. I think the less 'defined' we are the better. We're working on the platform. I have to learn javscript first.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?
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03-26-2013, 09:47 AM Post: #15
Fixed Cross Offline
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RE: You may not realize it
The internet was invented by rogue geniuses, individuals, hired by armies. Now the internet exists, and rogue individuals are inhabiting it and shaping it. The military industrial complex is a means. Historic dialectics. Marx meets Nietzsche.
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03-26-2013, 12:46 PM (This post was last modified: 03-26-2013 12:48 PM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #16
ChainOfBeing Offline
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RE: You may not realize it
Part of the problem is dependency. Can you build a computer on your own? I mean manufacture the motherboard, the cpu, the hardware yourself? Can you and some friends do it? Can you build an internet at the local level? Sure, your city can set up a LAN, but my point is that we are highly dependent upon the continued functioning of a very high level of technological and affluent society.

Another part of the problem: 99% of people don't use the internet the way we do. They really use it to worsen themselves and their life, and the lives of others around them. The internet feeds gluttony, ignorance, insanity, mass apathy and irresponsible consumerism way, way more than it feeds higher intellectual possibilities such as are represented by NWO or BTL.

So we have two essential problems here, which I would like to be seriously considered by you.

On the issue of dependency, before the internet we used to communicate in person or via letters and books. Now its all going online, where it can be turned off with the flip of a switch. What do you think about that? Giving your power over to the easy with which we surf the internet, when its all dependent upon a whole host of services continuing for your benefit, these services themselves tied into the very systems which we intend to be working to change/undermine/improve?

There are internet kill switches. You probably know that. So if we are getting all paranoid here, what makes you think these will not be used? Hell, what makes you think modern socioeconomics on the global level are going to continue as they are? The West is getting fat off the blood and tears of the rest of the planet, as has been going on since colonial days. Can this really continue forever? I mean, let's ask ourselves the tough questions, is all I am saying.

People used to meet, correspond and plan/acquire power either in person or via letters and books, tangible written correspondence. These were real relations between real people and things. Now, we all meet in a virtual format, which is all well and good in how easy it makes things, how vast the connective possibilities are, but to ignore the extreme dependency built into this system itself is stunning ignorance, or maybe a desire not to see the threats we face.

Granted, if you asked me, "What then is power, I mean how would YOU define it?" I would have to answer, honestly, we have almost no power at all, and I cannot see any scenario where "we" ("the people") might acquire it any time soon. Why is that? Because I am defeatist and nihilistic? No. It is because most of "the people" don't want anything to do with power. And all the political and intellectual channels for legitimate, real power are becoming more and more homogenized to means prescribed by the system itself. Resistance is pushed to the margins even as it becomes more "in your face", more "obvious". Guattari knew this. Just look at OWS, and how that went...... nowhere.

Look, I am not trying to be confrontational here, but I refuse to romanticize the situation of the world and humanity the way I see it too often romanticized, as if we have some privileged power and potential merely because we have been given computer devices. Believe me, I wish it were different. But I don't think it is. I think it is much worse.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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03-26-2013, 06:43 PM (This post was last modified: 03-26-2013 06:53 PM by pezer.) Post: #17
pezer Offline
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RE: You may not realize it
You underestimate us, all of our purposes are much more specific than this site. This isn't our gun, it's our water. And we want to give people some of our water. ¿Remember Idiocracy? Sometimes, watering life is the most gigantic act of war.
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03-26-2013, 11:13 PM Post: #18
ChainOfBeing Offline
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RE: You may not realize it
(03-26-2013 06:43 PM)pezer Wrote:
You underestimate us, all of our purposes are much more specific than this site. This isn't our gun, it's our water. And we want to give people some of our water. ¿Remember Idiocracy? Sometimes, watering life is the most gigantic act of war.

Good to know that your purpose is so specific.

I raise some very specific questions in my previous post here, which would be nice to have addressed, or at least thought of. I think these are essential issues. We cannot fall prey to idealism or romanticism, no matter how "nice" this may be. And of course I cannot know your own specific purposes, as you said, unless you tell me.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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03-26-2013, 11:16 PM (This post was last modified: 03-26-2013 11:17 PM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #19
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RE: You may not realize it
I see something of a contradiction here, a double negative. If there are internet cut-switches, and the internet feeds apathy and irrealism, then so what about... either? It does not matter, can not matter to us. We are to value this thing in our terms, and that is what we are doing. This *is* evolving, testing the outskirts of potential, marginalizing from the mean in order to stand apart, become solid, real.
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03-27-2013, 12:04 AM Post: #20
ChainOfBeing Offline
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RE: You may not realize it
(03-26-2013 11:16 PM)Fixed Cross Wrote:
I see something of a contradiction here, a double negative. If there are internet cut-switches, and the internet feeds apathy and irrealism, then so what about... either? It does not matter, can not matter to us. We are to value this thing in our terms, and that is what we are doing. This *is* evolving, testing the outskirts of potential, marginalizing from the mean in order to stand apart, become solid, real.

I agree with this. We have no choice but to value the internet in our own terms. We can neglect that which is not important to us, toward the completion of our ends, this too is necessary of course. But I wish to point out that we are putting our power and capability within a medium that is very new and could radically change at any time. This medium, the internet, there is no way to know if it will survive in more or less its present form for many more generations. The sheer amount of structure and ongoing productivity and economic activity that is needed to sustain the internet is staggering. And additional to this, the freedom of the internet is always under attack, and more and more with smart phones we see our internet signature becoming more central, anonymity being undermined, and attempts to regulate are always on the horizon.

To me, there is a lot of danger is relying so much on the internet as the medium for our power. But of course we should use all means at our disposal, absolutely. If the internet changed or became unfree, we could always continue what we have been doing in other ways, perhaps reverting back to letters or books. This is one reason that a year or so ago I wanted to compile a large list of philosophers and "honest thinkers". It included email addresses only but perhaps could include real addresses too, at some point in the future.

I would like to see an edifice raised, a project willed that takes shape under real power and influence. I agree that the internet represents this potential too, but I worry about idealizing the potential of the internet to the point of forsaking other options. And of course I have difficulty with "groundless hope" or hope that relies on a good degree of denial to constitute and preserve itself, this is something I really struggle with. I realize others do not necessarily struggle with this as much as I do, which is something that I am glad for.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.

RE: You may not realize it
The question is whether or not we rely on the Internet as much as what came before. How many people here know how to make paper?

There is always dependence to a certain extent.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?
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03-27-2013, 03:18 AM Post: #22
Q Offline
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RE: You may not realize it
Or perhaps better put, isn't there always some dependence in one form or another? I mean I would agree that we're more dependent on the net than the paper paradigm, but I wouldn't worry so much about internet kill switches. It still takes someone in the military to throw them. I would imagine they will end up being less effective then thought even if they do go ahead and pull them.

Ultimately we can either use computers or try and do the same thing without them. I put it to you it's more effective to use them.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?
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03-27-2013, 04:40 AM Post: #23
pezer Offline
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RE: You may not realize it
To me, really, it seems that, if they activate a killswitch, it will be a sign that we have made great progress.

ChainOfBeing, if you will not join us, join our discussions! Babies all around, but what think you, for example, of architecture? Don't answer that here, find the right place in our forum.
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03-27-2013, 10:39 AM Post: #24
Fixed Cross Offline
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RE: You may not realize it
(03-27-2013 12:04 AM)ChainOfBeing Wrote:
(03-26-2013 11:16 PM)Fixed Cross Wrote:
I see something of a contradiction here, a double negative. If there are internet cut-switches, and the internet feeds apathy and irrealism, then so what about... either? It does not matter, can not matter to us. We are to value this thing in our terms, and that is what we are doing. This *is* evolving, testing the outskirts of potential, marginalizing from the mean in order to stand apart, become solid, real.

I agree with this. We have no choice but to value the internet in our own terms. We can neglect that which is not important to us, toward the completion of our ends, this too is necessary of course. But I wish to point out that we are putting our power and capability within a medium that is very new and could radically change at any time. This medium, the internet, there is no way to know if it will survive in more or less its present form for many more generations. The sheer amount of structure and ongoing productivity and economic activity that is needed to sustain the internet is staggering. And additional to this, the freedom of the internet is always under attack, and more and more with smart phones we see our internet signature becoming more central, anonymity being undermined, and attempts to regulate are always on the horizon.

All true, and I am only now beginning to fully overcome my discomfort with this. I realize, also due to the evolution discussion you guys are having, that the only approach to life and power is based on the acceptance of phases. Passing influences, which have to be turned to advantages. I feel more and more comfortable with the internet and its temporal nature knowing that my influence (some of it) is lasting and benefic. Also, that benefic influence is lasting, and malefic influence is passing. The internet is a means, not more than that. It exists now in this flash of time (may continue for very long, may not) and that makes it even more justified to make use of it. No structure is eternal, only principles of necessities are. I stick close to these principles in my acts, and let visions and structures emerge. Some of these will dissipate and fall, others turn out to grow and evolve beyond what I could foresee. The truer my initial acts was to the necessary principle, the more the resulting vision or structure reverberates with my will. The cosmos makes a lot of sense to me in this way.

Quote:
To me, there is a lot of danger is relying so much on the internet as the medium for our power.

Whatever happens, it did already facilitate the conception of value ontology, and did a bunch of other things for us. Ever since, I was suddenly able to put my trust in it, to 'bluff' with time, to just project a timeline, based on honest estimations, of what can be accomplished if this medium persist, and if I persist using the medium

Neither is a given. But the results so far have been very real to me, and I have no good reason to turn my back on it.

Quote:
But of course we should use all means at our disposal, absolutely. If the internet changed or became unfree, we could always continue what we have been doing in other ways, perhaps reverting back to letters or books. This is one reason that a year or so ago I wanted to compile a large list of philosophers and "honest thinkers". It included email addresses only but perhaps could include real addresses too, at some point in the future.

Good idea. I also often consider printing out valuable texts, or at least storing them on non magnetic media, such as CD's. Anyway, the internet should be treated as a means, but to make this means more effective, we have to work with it creatively and trustingly, mine it, milk it, use to to create realities. It won't be of use when we're too sceptic of its reality - a medium does not itself have to be the most reliable reality to produce real results. Strangely.

Quote:
I would like to see an edifice raised, a project willed that takes shape under real power and influence. I agree that the internet represents this potential too, but I worry about idealizing the potential of the internet to the point of forsaking other options. And of course I have difficulty with "groundless hope" or hope that relies on a good degree of denial to constitute and preserve itself, this is something I really struggle with. I realize others do not necessarily struggle with this as much as I do, which is something that I am glad for.

For myself I can say that I've accepted such a great degree of destruction in my family's history that I'm not worried anymore about hoping idly - All the hopes I project here, to anyone, are in the ful awareness of the continuous entropy and degradation that is always going on. All these hopes are of perfectly real things. I calculate with the possible end of all our structures. I just operate in the now as it exists, in the knowledge that this reverberates in future conditions. It becomes in a sense "a glorious kind of play". And I happen to think that only from such play truly good things emerge. Severity and responsibility are required, but nothing without the 'innocent expanse', what Nietzsche called overflowing, which does not care for the finitude of the results of itself.

The eternal is at work in every creative act.

This internet of ours is a matter of accessing sources and being a source. It is young, extremely so, and it could be that the source will become denser and richer for a good while. It could even be that the internet will not be shut off, that it becomes an integral part of life on Earth. It's interesting to me to surf between the lowest and the highest expectations.

When I create explicitly from self-valuing and not only towards it, the fear of futility dissipates.
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03-30-2013, 05:29 AM Post: #25
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RE: You may not realize it
James S Saint Wrote:
jabs Wrote:
James, how come you are not in the history books?
The future of history is online.
I'm online.
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04-01-2013, 05:08 AM Post: #26
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RE: You may not realize it
Fixed Cross, thank you for your comments. I agree with everything you wrote.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.

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PostSubject: Re: Natural World Ashes Thu Aug 01, 2013 7:25 pm
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Furnace Language
Let's destroy words.

Their meaning is false
excess seduction
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
- Thucydides

see it now?

Thunderbolt steers all things.
- Heraclitus

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### Re: New Moon Ashes

I don't like getting talked at. Even by powerful midnight spirits.

I am Un-Water, I am that which water hates, and that for which we drink it.

I am minerals left over from the tides, rocks that never moved from them. My ally is air that moves above it all and allows to reconstruct what water may seek to wash away.

I am the water itself.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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04-04-2013, 06:20 AM Post: #16
pezer Offline
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RE: Ontology and epistemology
I am the Gods, and within me, some will die.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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04-04-2013, 06:21 AM Post: #17
pezer Offline
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RE: Ontology and epistemology
http://godkillerseries.com/
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"

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PostSubject: Re: Natural World Ashes Thu Aug 01, 2013 7:26 pm
Mental Health (and an obstruction)
I am here again at the room of my old friends death
He jumped here 15 years ago and I was not here. I smoked hash, with Sauwelios, in the park. We talked about Puin, we said that he was going to be fine if he minded other people a bit more. We meant us. I meant, me. He had been solitary for the recent months. He turned out to be dead. Conveniently, he had chosen for his place to die, the garden in front of my new room. I idealized his death in the absence of real sorrow - I don't know why precisely, but the friendship I had with this cousin (oldest son to my mothers younger sister) has always been extremely strange, outer-worldly, uncomfortable, fated - he sought my company, constantly, to the great irritation of everyone around me as well as my self - in hindsight he was strongly autistic, which his parents, bone fide hippies, interpreted as special. And he was extremely special, a special case, an exception. I guess he could not live with that. But to seek death in the midst of the ones who will suffer most of it - his family, my family - and I was foolish enough to take that moment to begin to take him seriously.

I was at the age where males are recruited into armies and sects, where they are most willing to sacrifice identity for greatness. I was successfully hijacked by an ideology that I helped create, with a martyr at its center. I am the disciple, to a master who has said only "I met the devil, invited him in, offered him a tea." Then the poem goes on to tell how Satan leaves voluntarily, and asks: "how did you think you were going to cast me out?" whereupon Puin responds: "I just did".
Instead of facing the problem, the poem makes an overtly unsustainable leap, whereby 'creative freedom' will have been the argument.
Obviously, the devil had never left.
Don't invite the devil in your life, he will enter the lives of all who love you.

Well then. How to resolve this situation? How to deal with an act of domestic terrorism? To simply interpret it as "he was crazy. The past is the past" will eventually be the only solution. But I am still convinced, my mind is still warped into thinking, that there was a holiness to this kids suicide. His rational mind was extremely powerful. His emotions were deeply troubling. I produced some music for the raps that brought him on the brink of fame - as he was preparing recording songs on five albums of established musicians, he ended the story. Promise, denial of everything that for a while embodied that promise.
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03-04-2013, 07:59 AM Post: #2
pezer Offline
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RE: Mental Health (and an obstruction)
What was the sect?
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03-04-2013, 08:17 PM Post: #3
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RE: Mental Health (and an obstruction)
Our friendship.
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03-05-2013, 12:20 AM Post: #4
pezer Offline
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RE: Mental Health (and an obstruction)
Aye...
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03-30-2013, 04:02 PM Post: #5
Heathen Offline
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RE: Mental Health (and an obstruction)
(03-04-2013 06:13 AM)Fixed Cross Wrote:
Well then. How to resolve this situation? How to deal with an act of domestic terrorism? To simply interpret it as "he was crazy. The past is the past" will eventually be the only solution. But I am still convinced, my mind is still warped into thinking, that there was a holiness to this kids suicide.
I am not sure what is to be resolved. Both interpretations seem resolved. Is it just which one to choose? Are there no nagging emotions, guilt, rage, confusion beyond the choice between models or attitudes?
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03-30-2013, 09:17 PM (This post was last modified: 03-30-2013 09:19 PM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #6
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RE: Mental Health (and an obstruction)
(03-30-2013 04:02 PM)Heathen Wrote:
(03-04-2013 06:13 AM)Fixed Cross Wrote:
Well then. How to resolve this situation? How to deal with an act of domestic terrorism? To simply interpret it as "he was crazy. The past is the past" will eventually be the only solution. But I am still convinced, my mind is still warped into thinking, that there was a holiness to this kids suicide.
I am not sure what is to be resolved. Both interpretations seem resolved. Is it just which one to choose? Are there no nagging emotions, guilt, rage, confusion beyond the choice between models or attitudes?

Yes, a lot of them indeed. Rage, confusion, and perhaps even guilt, though there may be too much confusion to make that out as guilt. Also, fear. Fear of trust. I put a great portion of my trust in the future in this guy at one point, at least, I identified this trust with our friendship and collaborations. When he killed hikmself I was fresh enough to have this make a serious impact on the whole of my concept of trust and hope - Often when I have a hope now, it is accompanied by tremendous fear of killing someone with that hope.

As far as the guilt goes... it's difficult to understand how I am guilty, then again, very easy - I was the one who introduced him to psychoactive drugs. That is, I told him about my use of them. He had always had contempt for that sort of thing, suddenly it appeared to him there was something to respect in it.
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03-31-2013, 12:08 AM Post: #7
pezer Offline
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RE: Mental Health (and an obstruction)
Lol. Man, it's like I'm your friend, but I ran to my family instead of killing myself. And the you version in my life found a monster girlfriend to drown in. Very sweet of him, but he really shouldn't.

I did something Evil to him. I don't know how I'm gonna approach him yet some day, my own confusion.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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03-31-2013, 07:43 AM (This post was last modified: 03-31-2013 07:44 AM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #8
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RE: Mental Health (and an obstruction)
It sounds like the lesser evil... and not counting only what he did to me. His younger brother and his parents - his dad had already seen his sister and mother suicided - etc. It's the bedroom question that nags it for me, that was right where I slept. On top of that there was the magick, the reason I began to think about the soul as separate from the personality and radically destroyed the personality in favor of what turned out to be a void - fertile but empty of itself. It took Nietzsche to redraw blood and discover a portion of what was real - all through pain of ancestry and pride in presence.

During the course of this I had shifting relations with this dead relative, in which I dreamt sometimes that he was alive, but that ended quickly. Later I dreamt of his old house, from before when he went to live on the top floor of my families house, and making paths and discovering empty rooms. But I was never able to either feel guilt or get angry - all I was was confused and inspired. I made a lot of decisions then that would not have seen sane in normal conditions. Back then the consequences were illuminating. I can no longer thrive on this current of question-motion from past to present. The set time for extra-real advance is right this future.
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03-31-2013, 08:24 AM Post: #9
pezer Offline
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RE: Mental Health (and an obstruction)
We should get cracking on that temple...
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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03-31-2013, 08:30 AM Post: #10
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RE: Mental Health (and an obstruction)
(03-30-2013 09:17 PM)Fixed Cross Wrote:
Yes, a lot of them indeed. Rage, confusion, and perhaps even guilt, though there may be too much confusion to make that out as guilt. Also, fear. Fear of trust. I put a great portion of my trust in the future in this guy at one point, at least, I identified this trust with our friendship and collaborations. When he killed hikmself I was fresh enough to have this make a serious impact on the whole of my concept of trust and hope - Often when I have a hope now, it is accompanied by tremendous fear of killing someone with that hope.
OK, I can relate, both to the feelings and to the really rather odd negative magical thinking that one finds in there around things like this. I had a close family member that was in a lot of pain and it seemed to me had opted not to be alive to avoid the pain. Like, there was something wrong with her, she thought, and so therefore it made sense to be like a walking corpse, hiding, not really living. I challenged this, at a certain age, but before that and after that I could also contribute to it - her misconception of herself. Finally I gave up trying to challenge it, which really fucking hurt. Becasue it meant I pretty much had to grieve her death while she was still walking around. There are still twists and knots and unexpressed emotions around this. And then weird magical thinking that if I love something it will die.

As far as the guilt. It is often easy to deny guilt and then it really fucks you up.

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RE: Mental Health (and an obstruction)
You must hold on first and foremost to clear thinking. It is what is most at risk.

You know, Nietzsche said a philosopher must die many times before becoming a philosopher...
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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03-31-2013, 10:08 PM Post: #12
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RE: Mental Health (and an obstruction)
I've only known people who've made attempts at suicide, or insisted on telling me that they were thinking about it a lot. I've never actually known anyone who killed themselves.

I have to say, madness is one of those things that makes me believe in, if you like, evil spirits or forces, both from my own experience and from seeing it in other people. Believe it or not, I'm quite good at talking people back away from madness, helping them feel normal again, though this does make me something of a lightning rod for crazy people. But seeing them struggle with something that simply makes no sense in this realm, that strikes me as otherworldly, it regularly gives me pause for thought.

Ultimately, there's only ever so much you can do for other people. Retaining your own sanity is the key.
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03-31-2013, 11:03 PM (This post was last modified: 03-31-2013 11:10 PM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #13
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RE: Mental Health (and an obstruction)
I was somewhat "over" this suicide of my cousin, and then my girlfriends ex boyfriend killed himsel, the guy she left for me. That didn't really help. I felt very guilty about that one and it literally almost killed me to think I was cause to this, it was extremely difficult to not see myself as the cause, also given the nature of the interactions the three of us had had. It was only because I arrived at value ontology that I turbed that around and got out of that deathtrap. So there's the upside, and at once a testament to the specific value of value ontology. I needed to understand that I was ontologically forced to keep my own perspective and not care, identify too much with those for whom I care, that I would not only die if I did not, but that I would violate a universal law that includes love. That one is really born out of necessity.

Dark magic, entities - I can't escape that notion either. There seem to be a lot of forces and entities that are not grounded in rationally explainaible, Earthly business. I have no particular "talent" (curse) to perceive them but they are still able to haunt me when I am too strongly questioning.

Sticking with the value ontological approach, I think that when there's been made a kind of gap, hiatus in the self indeitifcation, there is space for rampant entities to feed off the nervous system. My quest after the second close suicide was of becoming more of an 'egoist' - or simply an ego, where the quest after the first one was of cultivating that hiatus, void, breach, in terms of opening the 'doors of perception'.

I've seen and understood much more than I would have if no one had killed themselves, that is certain to me. But there's no way of doing justice, of materializing this without something very manifest, something that won't slip through the cracks into oblivion. The idea I have for these temples, I know that would work and be a great capitalist venture as well as a proper monument to the future and challenge to the rotting past. As when I was surging through these dark channels I was under the impression that I was rich, had something that everyone required, was initiated.
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04-01-2013, 08:10 AM Post: #14
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RE: Mental Health (and an obstruction)
(03-31-2013 10:08 PM)BigTom Wrote:
I've only known people who've made attempts at suicide, or insisted on telling me that they were thinking about it a lot. I've never actually known anyone who killed themselves.

I have to say, madness is one of those things that makes me believe in, if you like, evil spirits or forces, both from my own experience and from seeing it in other people.
I definitely think this can be the case. And I find milder versions is people who are getting along fairly well, but are suffering this or that.

I think these 'forces' can literally be what other people dump out of themselves and we take in. And one can end this carrying other people shit, but often it is not so easy.

[/quote]
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04-01-2013, 08:12 AM Post: #15
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RE: Mental Health (and an obstruction)
(03-31-2013 11:03 PM)Fixed Cross Wrote:
Sticking with the value ontological approach, I think that when there's been made a kind of gap, hiatus in the self indeitifcation, there is space for rampant entities to feed off the nervous system.
Nicely worded. I often say 'hole' and this sounded very familiar.
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04-01-2013, 08:15 AM Post: #16
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RE: Mental Health (and an obstruction)
Interesting...
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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04-01-2013, 08:15 AM Post: #17
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RE: Mental Health (and an obstruction)
:O
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04-01-2013, 08:16 AM Post: #18
pezer Offline
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RE: Mental Health (and an obstruction)
Fuck, I love magicians.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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04-04-2013, 06:36 AM Post: #19
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RE: Mental Health (and an obstruction)
(04-01-2013 08:16 AM)pezer Wrote:
Fuck, I love magicians.

In this country there's a long-running connection between magicians and the security services.

Which makes me think Derren Brown is a spook.
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04-04-2013, 10:10 AM (This post was last modified: 04-04-2013 10:10 AM by Q.) Post: #20
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RE: Mental Health (and an obstruction)
For me it was when he was allowed to traumatize people horrifically on television. That is usually a sign that you are backed. When you can traumatize people horrifically on television.

Although, not always.

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PostSubject: Re: Natural World Ashes Thu Aug 01, 2013 7:27 pm
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Here's to Abstract
I was very sad to have learned of Abstracts passing. I don't know if you all knew him, or if those that did, know of his death, I just learned about it two days ago. It did not come as a surprise to me, it was hanging in the air like inevitable doom. He was "too good for this world" as they sometimes say. In his case I think this really applies. He was a truly sweet, bright and honest young man, and in a better world he might have been happy. I think that we should find some value in the idea that he valued us, that he trusted us, online thinkers, more than he trusted his own environment. We should take that seriously, as I've been fucking saying. This is not a joke. The world is turning to hell, and we're all that's left, for each other.

Abstract was at the beginning of my realization that there might be a future after all, that the internet, it's realm of free exchange of thought, is a real place. I had been dwelling here for a decade, but it never dawned on me that this may be the true reality, the true future of "good" (to avoid being blasphemous, I specify good-to-me) that has a chance of procreating, spawning a new reality. Where else than on the internet would I have met an Abstract, or for that matter, any of you who read this? The honesty that is possible here, we should value this even more than we do now.

During the last year I lost some of the connection I had with Abstract, and I am very happy to learn, on ILP and from private mails, that others have stayed in intensive contact with him. He was not alone. But he was mentally ill as one could say, "psychic" as I would say - his mind was extremely receptive, far, far beyond what is comfortable. This is of course what made him so extremely keen, quick, clever, understanding, but also what made him confused in what must have been a relatively very cruel and dull "real"-world.

He is one of us, as far as I'm concerned, at the center of what I love about this place, the online philosophy-campfire, and I really mean it when I say that all of us can and must learn from him the virtues of understanding and good will, tolerance, patience, lack of judgmentally. This goes for me not in the last place, of course.

Well, here's to you Abstract - your given name was Robin, but I will remember you by your self-chosen one. I love you dude, if that's the proper term - I certainly will never forget.
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03-26-2013, 09:06 AM Post: #2
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RE: Here's to Abstract
Quote:
We should value this even more than we do now.

I agree.

I didn't really know him, but this is a sad story. Mental illness is the worst thing.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?
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03-26-2013, 10:11 AM Post: #3
pezer Offline
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RE: Here's to Abstract
A brother has fallen.
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03-27-2013, 02:05 AM Post: #4
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RE: Here's to Abstract
I never knew him that well, but he seemed very smart and very kind, two things that don't make for easy living in this world but make for a wonderful person.
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03-27-2013, 12:29 PM (This post was last modified: 03-27-2013 12:32 PM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #5
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RE: Here's to Abstract
Abstract, I miss you. A hell of a lot more than I would have thought, I think.

As the saying goes, this world was never meant for one as beautiful as you. Be in peace, my friend.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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04-04-2013, 02:02 AM Post: #6
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RE: Here's to Abstract
I realize I'm late to the party train on this one, and...

Well, I didn't know Abstract well, in fact I didn't really know him at all, but I've been very saddened by this whole ordeal.

I'm sorry, to those of you who did know him, and considered him a friend.
"Think left and think right and think low and think high. Oh, the thinks you can think up if only you try!"

-Dr. Seuss
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04-04-2013, 02:00 PM Post: #7
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RE: Here's to Abstract
Abstract had a vision... A vision beyond just knowing what's wrong. He understood what's right, and that killed him.

Blessed be the wrong, blessed be the evil and dark and subtly unattainable.

Blessed be the unlcear, the squinting eyes of fate.

Blessed is my fate, it is unclear.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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04-07-2013, 10:16 AM (This post was last modified: 04-07-2013 10:21 AM by Heathen.) Post: #8
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RE: Here's to Abstract
I liked Abstract, he was kind and smart and willing to play and explore ideas. A lot of people say they have an open mind. He never said this, I don't think, but it seemed like he actually had one. That he could really consider an idea he disagreed with. And not with any particular naivte. It shocked me that he died. In his last thread over there in ILP I took a pretty strong ante-psychiatric line, though I did keep asking Abstract to explain more what went on when they locked him in. That more never came. I'll miss him.
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04-07-2013, 10:40 AM (This post was last modified: 04-07-2013 10:42 AM by pezer.) Post: #9
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RE: Here's to Abstract
Pain is a destroyer of perception and will to live. We must be careful when we tease it out of people, if we want it to grow something in them or provoke some evolution instead of destroy them.

Sometimes, though, perhaps destruction is simply unavoidable.

This is why psychologists are required to get a doctorate in Canada before they can practice.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"

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PostSubject: Re: Natural World Ashes Thu Aug 01, 2013 7:28 pm
BAAAAAAAAAAAAABY lon
From the moment I got back in the streets after meeting a girlfriend from far back in youth, it was dark and I was on my bike. I was drunk and she had not been pleased with the amount of weed I mixed with the tobacco in my evening smoke. The night was warm, this summer I remember quite lively in a few flushed instants of expectation.

It must have been at 15 minutes in, as I crossed the Berlage, that I noticed I was talking in a strange tongue, and yes it was the tounge of Babel, now Ural then Semite then Mongol... and as I coursed through the continents the power peaked and suddenly I was proclaiming Turanian syllables like beads in word-chains climaxing in thunder from my chest.

Several thousands of days I uttered such strings, and now finally I saw their meaning in the eyes of a cat - (which is an anagram of act) - I have learned much by the tools of forgotten shadows and lights.
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04-08-2013, 06:30 AM (This post was last modified: 04-08-2013 06:31 AM by Q.) Post: #2
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RE: BAAAAAAAAAAAAABY lon
Nice.

After looming fairly seriously at the Stoned Ape theory I have been giving more and more thought to (I forget the word) "auto talking", and how that could relate to genetic memory.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?
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04-08-2013, 08:33 AM Post: #3
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RE: BAAAAAAAAAAAAABY lon
Genetic memory is key.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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04-09-2013, 10:58 AM (This post was last modified: 04-10-2013 06:16 AM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #4
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RE: BAAAAAAAAAAAAABY lon
 yes.

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PostSubject: Re: Natural World Ashes Thu Aug 01, 2013 7:28 pm
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Esoteric Astrology
This thread be dedicated to Esoteric Astrology.
In this field I have relied on the works of Alice Bailey, Who based here writing on the foundations laid out by Helena Blavatsky and the third, most mysterious figure - "The Tibetan". But only when I read "Tapestry of the Gods" by a theosophist that I was able to meditate.

It is only fitting that I spend a great deal of space bringing up citations from this book, which can be found online and will be linked at each citation or set of citations.

In fact, I may not be able to do much more than point you to this supremely effective way of psychologizing, so that you may mediate yourself more proficiently.

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03-13-2013, 01:41 PM Post: #2 |
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RE: Esoteric Astrology
So, what's the difference between esoteric Astrology and other kinds?

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03-14-2013, 01:53 AM (This post was last modified: 03-14-2013 01:55 AM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #3 |
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RE: Esoteric Astrology
It takes on a different 'language', as it introduces the concept of "rays". It is very much the sort of thing that allows for mockery, and very opaque in that respect. I mean really, who is going to take seriously a system of psychology based on cosmic rays ? It sounds straight out of a very bad science fiction movie. And as if normal astrology wasn't ridiculous enough...

Anyway, I do believe in it, as always only after exhaustive experiment. But I am very embarrassed telling people about it.

But who cares, we're on NWO. Here's how the Rays are identified, in the most frequently used terms.

Ray 1: Will and Power
Ra2 2: Love and Wisdom
Ray 3: Active Mind
Ray 4: Harmony through Opposites
Ray 5: Concrete Science
Ray 6: Abstract Idealism
Ray 7: Ceremonial Magic.

As this becomes the primary logos, the Sun, moon and planets, as well as the stars and signs are brought under it, interpreted in terms of these rays. Jupiter and Sun, for example, seem to belong to Ray 2. Saturn is ray 3. Moon and Mercury ray 4. But this is not going to be of any use to anyone who isn't already deep into astrology. What might be interesting though is to read about the psychology attributed to the rays, without any astrological context. In fact one needs not be aware (or believe) that this has anything to do with anything outside of the body, as you can treat it as a typology, much like Myers Briggs and such things. In my experience it is more effective and accurate.

If you want to find out your "ray type", dig into these books.

http://makara.us/04mdr/01writing/01tg/tapestry1.pdf
http://makara.us/04mdr/01writing/02tg/tapestry2.pdf

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04-07-2013, 02:40 PM Post: #4 |
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RE: Esoteric Astrology
Hi, thanks for the links. I might actually read them - since I have some interest in integral psychology also - but it is much easier for me to learn from a concrete example. Could you link to either your own chart or a famous person's chart and explain what insights the rays give you that would not come out in some other version of astrology.

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04-10-2013, 07:49 AM (This post was last modified: 04-10-2013 07:51 AM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #5 |
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RE: Esoteric Astrology
It's quite an ambiguous undertaking seeing that there isn't any rosetta stone for this. I've never done this before with anyone besides myself. I only found out real data through very extensive experimentation with my approach to others. I found out which ray leads me quickest to my goals.

Tell me if this makes sense. It was only through experimenting with the rays that I began to realize the hierarchy of planetary influences in my chart - which planets are the most 'noble' in terms of what I want to accomplish and am able to be. EA makes it slightly easier to 'zero in' on influences.

But I am truly a novice at this - I began my experiments two years ago. I also don't know how you are used to working - perhaps you can propose a chart to examine.
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
- Thucydides

see it now?

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- Heraclitus

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### Re: New Moon Ashes

a bitch make it yours
Baal of poetry
unleash opium crack dark glass crystal doors of apperception
life is acid
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03-30-2013, 08:08 AM (This post was last modified: 03-30-2013 08:08 AM by pezer.) Post: #2
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RE: Furnace Language
life is acid

Crack, Pot, Baal, Mal,
We can travel true, false, and almost any which way
and often...

FORGET WHERE WE STARTED

And then we laugh, laaaaugh laugh laugh.

When I come back to, I was already someone else.

EVOLllllluuuuuutt

ttt
tt
t
t

.

Funny Jokes, One Remembers One Never Did

And Execretes Decietful Lust... Or doesn't!

Words.... I wonder.... I wonder when the Power will come that you will be shown Powerless.

Until then, I remain,

Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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03-30-2013, 08:12 AM Post: #3
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RE: Furnace Language
Zoper Speaks, Remembering His Peer Abstract.
The Coordinates of Existance

:
I just forgot.
Bloody weed.
Oh yes.
Sorry, I sneezed.
The coordinates of existance:
To exist, we need coordinates.
Because to be is to percieve, and to percieve is to know information.
There-fore, if the information has no coordenates, the perception will hover...
The being might dissipate.

As soon as coordinates are found.
The fog is condensed, being is returned with its pulling vacuums that never are.
Stoping time and space themselves.
Or, rather, pushing against them.
Placing it in shifting equilibriiums of artifice.
Surviving only because the equilibriums jive with whatever it is our coordinates seek...
Or something else, perhaps,
But something.
And we can love and and call it names.
Or revile it;
Keep it in the shittiest of pools.
As long as it has nutrients...
As long as the coordinates work...
As long as they lead to their own prolongment.
Anything can survive.
Without coordinates, one is not surviving, but being kept alive.
Prevented from dying, the Grim Reaper Evolved.
What is the distance between the loss of necessity and the appearance of the Grim Reaper?
I don't know. It must be life.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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03-30-2013, 08:52 AM Post: #4
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RE: Furnace Language
Burtation
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?
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04-01-2013, 05:01 AM (This post was last modified: 04-01-2013 05:01 AM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #5
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RE: Furnace Language
Warpath
black death
curse purge
crawl deal
fear streak
eat me
rust trust
break oak
gnaw plunge
syringe
dance
dark ark
feud lure
pure
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04-01-2013, 05:04 AM Post: #6
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RE: Furnace Language
need more pressure to crack them
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04-01-2013, 05:09 AM Post: #7
pezer Offline
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RE: Furnace Language
Agnostic
Wavering
Strong

Stable
Unstable
Unstable
Unstable

Unstable
Unstable
Unstable
War

War. The law of war. No law. No wall. No war.

Dead things rising, Risen things dying. The path of the Christ! The path of the Friends and enemies of Christ!

Life as fancy. What a fancy!

Fancy dress, fancy press. Fancy door, fancy poor. Flight of fancy... Fancy that!

Open the doors of perception, and let the shit come flooding in.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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04-01-2013, 06:08 AM Post: #8
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RE: Furnace Language
still beauty must remain.
life trespasses the void into victimhood.
life is that in the open, in the dark death is cornered Zanzibar.

The castle rose before myne eye and
oh the doors which are spikes no they open
now it reaps.
the turbulence ceases, the silent harvest has begun
for ever less
Beverly Hills
020102010292929292929
zero zero

Gobbo is my hero.
12x
on the techno beat at 1:06:30 of his concertpost. Hosts of wonder path to moonrise in deep harp cursehorns, emerald memory, elephant. (he who steals elephant steals also memory)
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04-01-2013, 06:32 AM (This post was last modified: 04-01-2013 06:34 AM by pezer.) Post: #9
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RE: Furnace Language
Zanzibar, it seems, burns brightest in death. Well, surrounded by death. Assailed by it.

The crisp fire burns loudest yet smallest.

a leaf, Wet,
under the dusty
and over the dusty

Frodo lives..!
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"

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PostSubject: Re: Natural World Ashes Thu Aug 01, 2013 7:26 pm
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Ontology and epistemology
Fixed Cross Wrote:
existence
late 14c., "reality," from O.Fr. existence, from M.L. existentia/exsistentia, from existentem/exsistentem (nom. existens/exsistens) "existent," prp. of L. existere/exsistere "stand forth, appear," and, as a secondary meaning, "exist, be;" from ex- "forth" (see ex-) + sistere "cause to stand". (see assist).
- online etymology dictionary

I have heard to has been said that ontology as well as epistemology is metaphysics, and therefore has no place in a Netzschean philosophy (by which is understood a world-affirming one), which must aim at describing particulars and dismiss the notion of universals. It seems to me that this would mean that the will-to-power, as a universal definition of being, must be disregarded by such Nietzscheans, as it is an ontology. But I consider the idea that ontology is the study of universals a mistake. At the root of this mistake is the idea that terms describing many, or even all perceivable particulars, are necessary universals, and thereby metaphysical. This error has to do with the idea of cosmic totality. The universe as a neatly limited collection of things, itself a thing. Whether we understand 'thing' as 'object', 'force', or even 'subject' as Nietzsche does, such a notion is not founded in observation and deduction, i.e. scientific method, but it is nothing but an assumption. The very notion of universals is dependent on the possibility of a definable totality.

The philosophy I am developing departs from the assumption that the universe is a neatly limited quantity, and necessarily a closed system. The law of conservation of energy may not apply to the universe (and there are indications that energy increases). More matter may come into existence. More matter may stand forth, appear. And I think that this is indeed what happens. It is possible that universe (as being) did not come into existence in its entirety, by Gods hand or by the Big Bang (effectively the same idea, a pushing back of the problem of origin behind an impressive display of power) but bit-by-bit, as matter began to stand forth / appear out of chaos, or no-thingness. This chaotic non-existence is thereby taken as the limit to existence -- but, and herein lies the epistemic ground to this new philosophy, this limit is understood as the limit of our mind, and not pertaining to objectivity in any way.

Epistemology and ontology are ultimately the same study. The study of being is the same as the study of knowledge. When we study what exists, we must also study in what way we can know. To not understand this is to believe in the thing-in-itself. Such understanding necessitates either belief in God or the active abandonment of reason. Belief in God being the passive abandonment of reason. What we must do instead is to refine reason, beyond its crude delineations of binary logic. Nature gives us no reason to think that we must conceive of existence in terms of 'yes' and 'no', of 1 and 0, which are mutually exclusive and cannot follow from each other. Such is an artifice that only applies to abstractions, not to life. Philosophy must leave behind this abstraction, and become as life. The strange logics of Heidegger are the beginnings of this process.
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01-24-2013, 01:55 AM (This post was last modified: 01-24-2013 01:57 AM by JSS.) Post: #2
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RE: Ontology and epistemology
(01-22-2013 12:54 PM)Fixed Cross Wrote:
I have heard it has been said that ontology as well as epistemology is metaphysics, and therefore has no place in a Netzschean philosophy (by which is understood a world-affirming one), which must aim at describing particulars and dismiss the notion of universals. It seems to me that this would mean that the will-to-power, as a universal definition of being, must be disregarded by such Nietzscheans, as it is an ontology. But I consider the idea that ontology is the study of universals a mistake.

Definitionally correct.
Ontology has nothing to do with "universals" other than to imply that there might be some.

(01-22-2013 12:54 PM)Fixed Cross Wrote:
The philosophy I am developing departs from the assumption that the universe is a neatly limited quantity, and necessarily a closed system.

That is logically provable.

(01-22-2013 12:54 PM)Fixed Cross Wrote:
The law of conservation of energy may not apply to the universe (and there are indications that energy increases). More matter may come into existence. More matter may stand forth, appear. And I think that this is indeed what happens.

Conservation of energy on its most fundamental level, "Affectance", can be taken as an absolute certainty. "Matter" is an entirely different issue and you're are correct in that matter appears and disappears quite frequently.

(01-22-2013 12:54 PM)Fixed Cross Wrote:
It is possible that universe (as being) did not come into existence in its entirety, by Gods hand or by the Big Bang (effectively the same idea, a pushing back of the problem of origin behind an impressive display of power) but bit-by-bit, as matter began to stand forth / appear out of chaos, or no-thingness.

There has always been matter, just not always the same amount (except perhaps by average) nor in the same regions.

(01-22-2013 12:54 PM)Fixed Cross Wrote:
This chaotic non-existence is thereby taken as the limit to existence -- but, and herein lies the epistemic ground to this new philosophy, this limit is understood as the limit of our mind, and not pertaining to objectivity in any way.

I would like to see that expounded upon.

(01-22-2013 12:54 PM)Fixed Cross Wrote:
Epistemology and ontology are ultimately the same study. The study of being is the same as the study of knowledge. When we study what exists, we must also study in what way we can know. To not understand this is to believe in the thing-in-itself.

Ontological construction is a choice to make. It has never been an issue of what is or what isn't, but merely what is to be distinguished from what by name or concept.

And you are right, the distinction between epistemology and ontology is trite.

(01-22-2013 12:54 PM)Fixed Cross Wrote:
Such understanding necessitates either belief in God or the active abandonment of reason. Belief in God being the passive abandonment of reason. What we must do instead is to refine reason, beyond its crude delineations of binary logic. Nature gives us no reason to think that we must conceive of existence in terms of 'yes' and 'no', of 1 and 0, which are mutually exclusive and cannot follow from each other. Such is an artifice that only applies to abstractions, not to life. Philosophy must leave behind this abstraction, and become as life. The strange logics of Heidegger are the beginnings of this process.

"Binary logic" has always been a strawman so as to persuade people against the use of logic and reasoning. Logic has always been trinary;
A) True
B) False
C) Indeterminate / Unknown / Irrationally constructed thought
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01-25-2013, 05:32 AM (This post was last modified: 01-25-2013 05:33 AM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #3
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RE: Ontology and epistemology
Quote:
(01-22-2013 12:54 PM)Fixed Cross Wrote:
The philosophy I am developing departs from the assumption that the universe is a neatly limited quantity, and necessarily a closed system.

That is logically provable.

How?

Quote:
(01-22-2013 12:54 PM)Fixed Cross Wrote:
The law of conservation of energy may not apply to the universe (and there are indications that energy increases). More matter may come into existence. More matter may stand forth, appear. And I think that this is indeed what happens.

Conservation of energy on its most fundamental level, "Affectance", can be taken as an absolute certainty. "Matter" is an entirely different issue and you're are correct in that matter appears and disappears quite frequently.

Excellent.

Quote:
(01-22-2013 12:54 PM)Fixed Cross Wrote:
It is possible that universe (as being) did not come into existence in its entirety, by Gods hand or by the Big Bang (effectively the same idea, a pushing back of the problem of origin behind an impressive display of power) but bit-by-bit, as matter began to stand forth / appear out of chaos, or no-thingness.

There has always been matter, just not always the same amount (except perhaps by average) nor in the same regions.

Are you certain? Why is a state where there is only flux impossible?

Quote:
(01-22-2013 12:54 PM)Fixed Cross Wrote:
This chaotic non-existence is thereby taken as the limit to existence -- but, and herein lies the epistemic ground to this new philosophy, this limit is understood as the limit of our mind, and not pertaining to objectivity in any way.

I would like to see that expounded upon.

"Not pertaining to objectivity in any way" is overstated. It is what passes for objectivity, and thus what we regard as such. The whole point is a reversal of the solipsist stance that the self is the most certainly real - my statement is that of the self we know most definitively the limits of its valuing powers - the power to absorb affect so as to add to its momentum. Of the rest of reality, we can not be certain that it shares these limits.

Our ontology is certainly real in our universe, but by the very nature of its mechanisms (the logic of correspondence), it sets limits to what is real whereas not providing exactitude over what is not besides "that which it is not".

I mean that we use our laws as borders to our land.

Quote:
(01-22-2013 12:54 PM)Fixed Cross Wrote:
Epistemology and ontology are ultimately the same study. The study of being is the same as the study of knowledge. When we study what exists, we must also study in what way we can know. To not understand this is to believe in the thing-in-itself.

Ontological construction is a choice to make. It has never been an issue of what is or what isn't, but merely what is to be distinguished from what by name or concept.

EXACTLY. This was the insight that spawned value ontology.

Quote:
And you are right, the distinction between epistemology and ontology is trite.

Voila. I'm glad I posted this.

Quote:
(01-22-2013 12:54 PM)Fixed Cross Wrote:
Such understanding necessitates either belief in God or the active abandonment of reason. Belief in God being the passive abandonment of reason. What we must do instead is to refine reason, beyond its crude delineations of binary logic. Nature gives us no reason to think that we must conceive of existence in terms of 'yes' and 'no', of 1 and 0, which are mutually exclusive and cannot follow from each other. Such is an artifice that only applies to abstractions, not to life. Philosophy must leave behind this abstraction, and become as life. The strange logics of Heidegger are the beginnings of this process.

"Binary logic" has always been a strawman so as to persuade people against the use of logic and reasoning. Logic has always been trinary;
A) True
B) False
C) Indeterminate / Unknown / Irrationally constructed thought

Interesting point.
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01-29-2013, 08:07 AM Post: #4
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RE: Ontology and epistemology
The world is a chaotic flux of springs whose activity we are part of. It does not matter what words you use. Take acid one day and do your normal day's schedule, go as a listener to a university class. There is no thing in itself indeed.

Your web of concepts is a largely dirty thing that accumulated by happenstance. You accepted this, now casted that, all the while allowing the stupid beast to make most of the discernments. You are right, Fixed Cross: the philosopher isn't good at choosing, he is good at discerning. We might say that his art is discernment, which is the only art that marks humans as mighty. Magic is an understatement, and shackles, says I.

It is possible to become aware of value, and to shift - reevaluate - your webs. All it takes is acknowledgement of what you can tell, yourself. For this, you must know your enemy, too. If not understanding is a limit, then so is your enemy. That is why fighting monsters makes you monstrous, no? You are largely determined by what you fight.
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02-03-2013, 10:06 AM (This post was last modified: 02-07-2013 04:58 AM by JSS.) Post: #5
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RE: Ontology and epistemology
(01-25-2013 05:32 AM)Fixed Cross Wrote:
Quote:
(01-22-2013 12:54 PM)Fixed Cross Wrote:
The philosophy I am developing departs from the assumption that the universe is a neatly limited quantity, and necessarily a closed system.

That is logically provable.

How?
I meant to say that is logically probable that the universe is NOT a closed system. That conclusion is derived merely from the concept of infinity.

Quote:
There has always been matter, just not always the same amount (except perhaps by average) nor in the same regions.
(01-25-2013 05:32 AM)Fixed Cross Wrote:
Are you certain? Why is a state where there is only flux impossible?

Quote:
Since you have actually already agreed to the concern at hand but merely disallow yourself to see logical proof, let me now show you the point to those last thoughts.

In RM, it is proposed that every point in space cannot be infinitely identical to the points around it and thus affectance waves proceed in all directions. As a consequence of that ontology, it must be true that all points in space must always have waves of affectance passing through them from all directions at once (similar to TEW's elemental wave concern).

As waves cross a point, they add their affects at that point. If the MCR (Maximum Change Rate) has not been challenged, they simply pass through and continue. But since there are literally more than an infinite number of such waves converging upon every point and adding their affects at each point, they cannot always merely pass through.

[Image: MCR+Challenged.jpg]

Given an infA^2 number of waves traveling toward a center point, some rising and some falling, if their average PtA change happens to be less than 1/infA (using the same defined infA as before), they have no reason to not merely pass through the center and continue. But if their average PtA increase or decrease happens to exceed 1/infA , when they meet at the center, the PtA rise time and the PtA value at that center would have to exceed infA.

It is logically impossible for such an infinite rise time to occur as well as such an infinite PtA level to be attained. Thus the waves have no choice but to be delayed until enough time has passed. And for every circle (or sphere in 3D) outside the one shown, there are even more than infA^2 number of points heading toward that same center, requiring that their average be even less. A sphere of merely 1 toe in radius has 4π*infA^2 points on its surface each with PtA waves heading toward the center.

[Image: Number+of+Pnts+on+Sphere.jpg]

That is the beginning of inertia and the formation of a particle. The initial delay spawns more delays surrounding the area that increases the probability that the center will encounter another MCR challenge. Thus the particle, by challenging an impossible task, sustains its continued existence as a particle. It becomes anentropic.

The ontological components proposed by RM and the logic that demands this situation are logically impossible to not exist, merely because an infinite value cannot be attained.
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02-07-2013, 12:11 AM Post: #6
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RE: Ontology and epistemology
I can see that this is necessarily so, within the framework of RM, that is to say within affectance ontology.

Value Ontology does not hold a definite standard of affectance per se (AO is alike to Nietzsche's will to power, in that it proposes one form of affectance, in that all affects all) and allows theoretically for more types which do not necessarily affect each other.

I assume you object to this.
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02-07-2013, 04:54 AM (This post was last modified: 02-07-2013 05:02 AM by JSS.) Post: #7
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RE: Ontology and epistemology
(02-07-2013 12:11 AM)Fixed Cross Wrote:
allows theoretically for more types which do not necessarily affect each other.

I assume you object to this.

I would object based on the fact that such a realm would defy the meaning of existing (that which has affect). How can you say that something exists if that something has no affect on anything?

You can have a "subontology" wherein objects are defined as collections of undefined sub-objects, such as a mind ontology that (somewhat) ignores the neurology involved. This would constitute a type of cardinality shift wherein one doesn't care about the infinitesimal data bit streams going into the mind, but instead merely refers to the larger picture of sight, sound, touch,... As long as the details don't become relevant such a cardinality shift, even though ignoring some details of reality, can still function and even be "holy" (coherent, consistent, and comprehensive) but it must allow for potential detailed thought later and it must not leave out anything having relevant affect.

"To affect" merely means to cause change. If you have a proposed ontology wherein the existence or non-existence of something doesn't change anything, why have it there at all?

In VO, what would be the range of values if measured? How do you propose to handle infinitesimal values and infinite values? Positive and negative values?
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02-07-2013, 09:36 AM (This post was last modified: 02-07-2013 09:56 AM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #8
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RE: Ontology and epistemology
Quote:
I would object based on the fact that such a realm would defy the meaning of existing (that which has affect). How can you say that something exists if that something has no affect on anything?
Quote:
"To affect" merely means to cause change. If you have a proposed ontology wherein the existence or non-existence of something doesn't change anything, why have it there at all?

I mean that not all affectance has to affect in the same realm. You separate mind and brain, indeed but these at least correlate to a great extent. Atom and foot is already quite different, and at one point a threshold may be reached (or never a connection made) where one sphere of affectance no longer 'answers to' another, where realms of affectance go by each other separately in different times.

Quote:
You can have a "subontology" wherein objects are defined as collections of undefined sub-objects, such as a mind ontology that (somewhat) ignores the neurology involved. This would constitute a type of cardinality shift wherein one doesn't care about the infinitesimal data bit streams going into the mind, but instead merely refers to the larger picture of sight, sound, touch,... As long as the details don't become relevant such a cardinality shift, even though ignoring some details of reality, can still function and even be "holy" (coherent, consistent, and comprehensive) but it must allow for potential detailed thought later and it must not leave out anything having relevant affect.

Yes, I agree but - this leaves the problem of the frame of reference.
Does our frame of reference, logic (a certain 'density' of mind), include imagination (less exacting, broader and soffer density, with thus different laws, and thus different potencies and possibilities) or is it used alongside of it? I choose the latter, though I am determined to have them at least correlate in some form of harmony. I have ye to set the first true step in the Walz,

Now I am suffering from cognitive dissonance, the music of the rhythm of logic and the melody of play. My "type" is artist - that means, I draw the greatest inner vitality from this type of work, the greatest peace and health.

Art is my natural way of affecting outwards. This scientific philosophy is the rearing of this affecting caught in a dispute as to the purpose. Now I am gradually seeing that the rearing creates the purpose - makes it visible. It allows for other possibilites. Infinity squaring (amounting in high complexity, perspective, reality) demands 'The Chariot' of the Tarot, which is followed by 'The Tamed Lion: Strength'.

Then follows 'The Hermit'. Only after that 'Fortune'. The philosopher is captain at this wheel.

Quote:
In VO, what would be the range of values if measured? How do you propose to handle infinitesimal values and infinite values? Positive and negative values?

If I have to be as concrete as I can be right now, History boy just said something to day that points in the direction.

Historyboy Wrote:
Recently I have read a paragraph from the notebooks I think, where he speaks about the functions of the organs in a hierarchical order, and this order is maintained through virtues, i.e. the functions of the organs are separated by virtues. Maybe this observations are somewhere deeper developed by another author or maybe it's his own work. I don't know yet any of the French psychologists he knew and whom he hold in high esteem.

Anyway, what can be the outcome of such a study of an individual? Another great book that nobody will read? A new philosopher drowned in the sea of decadence?

For me the easiest way out of decadence is to adopt the Greek virtues and then, as a society, not as a blind obedient slave, like in the Happy Isles, to try to develop something higher. I strongly suspect that one of the projects for his masters of Earth was to "learn (all?) morals and philosophies. we don't want to start from the beginning". This morals and philosophies shall be offered to different peoples according to their rank. That is why he spoke about giving the Germans a higher rank. Psychology as the queen of sciences... sounds like mechanics of philosophy.

Value = 1 might be something alike 'full subjective vitality.
This value would change relatively to all other self-valuings, meaning that they to him become smaller. There would be the possibility of a formula describing, in restrained context of social and biological archetypes, the proportion of growth of the self-value to the decrease of the mean value. This would then have to include a complex algorithm describing the health of local other as beneficial to ones own health up to a certain point where it becomes detrimental - and I would not know where to begin defining the real world context for the standard-value except by setting an ideal number or limit to a population.
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02-07-2013, 04:28 PM (This post was last modified: 02-07-2013 04:28 PM by JSS.) Post: #9
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RE: Ontology and epistemology
(02-07-2013 09:36 AM)Fixed Cross Wrote:
Value = 1 might be something alike 'full subjective vitality.
This value would change relatively to all other self-valuings, meaning that they to him become smaller. There would be the possibility of a formula describing, in restrained context of social and biological archetypes, the proportion of growth of the self-value to the decrease of the mean value. This would then have to include a complex algorithm describing the health of local other as beneficial to ones own health up to a certain point where it becomes detrimental - and I would not know where to begin defining the real world context for the standard-value except by setting an ideal number or limit to a population.

Sounds like Anentropics to me. In the end of the explanation, a cardinality shift is declared and the maximum Potential-to-Affect is set = 1. The particle devotes everything it does to maintaining that and disregards all else.

Logic and Art go easily hand in hand when understood (requiring logic to lead the way). In very many situations, the logic involved becomes arbitrary concerning a variety of issues. Two paths lead to the same destination and are not logically distinguishable. At such times, the choices are up for alternate arbitration with regard to other incentives or concerns not normally related and not requiring logical connection to the original priority concern; "This house needs paint (the rational logic). Choose your favorite a color scheme (the artistic freedom and imagination)."
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03-14-2013, 02:43 AM Post: #10
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RE: Ontology and epistemology
I was blamed in ILP of transcendentalism and covert priesthood, and it was because of this:

Rationality works. It is a plane, though if you ask ChainOfBeing he would probably answer that it exists as a cover, a second tier description of a reflection of a series of constructions. Philosophers will have a full meal just with that, but I have a point to make. It is that the transcendence of rationality is no longer the realm of qualified priests or metaphyscicians, no longer must we wander about in the dark and wonder: is the mind just a dream of a singularity?

These extra-dimensions that Fixed Cross describes, and learned men like him and others of great rigor, discipline, and art in curiosity can, with time, realize, is today available o anybody with a week to read philsophy and $20 to buy high grade psychedellic drugs. Psychedellic drugs. Are. The. Closest. Thing. To. A. Religious. Experience. That. Exists. Precisely because epistemology isn't a given: it must be fought for and earned. Sought out and reaped from the very world. Fixed Cross Offline Neophyte Posts: 466 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 8 Warning Level: 0% RE: Ontology and epistemology (03-14-2013 02:43 AM)pezer Wrote: I was blamed in ILP of transcendentalism and covert priesthood, and it was because of this: Rationality works. It is a plane, though if you ask ChainOfBeing he would probably answer that it exists as a cover, a second tier description of a reflection of a series of constructions. Philosophers will have a full meal just with that, but I have a point to make. It is that the transcendence of rationality is no longer the realm of qualified priests or metaphyscicians, no longer must we wander about in the dark and wonder: is the mind just a dream of a singularity? These extra-dimensions that Fixed Cross describes, and learned men like him and others of great rigor, discipline, and art in curiosity can, with time, realize, is today available o anybody with a week to read philsophy and$20 to buy high grade psychedellic drugs.

Psychedellic drugs. Are. The. Closest. Thing. To. A. Religious. Experience. That. Exists. Precisely because epistemology isn't a given: it must be fought for and earned. Sought out and reaped from the very world.

Where do you think I got my initiation into philosophy? It is only from experience that my rigors have formed, and some of the most significant of experiences were given by psychedelics. It has been a while since I first managed, on behalf of my family, not to crush my skull against the wall to stop the terrifying onslaught of vision into the mechanics of the mind, but I remember these unfolding "forms" like it was yesterday, or just this minute.

But then, years later, I had my first "bona-fide" religious experience with an "angel". This came to me solely through sorrow, the "Trance of Binah" as kabbalist will call it, and it was very different from the psychedelic experience, which is visionary, firelike.

This experience was water-like, emotional. "Normal" religion is, in my experience, emotion. In this emotional body of man, presences can become known which are described in scripture. I met "Magdalene". She taught me the French tongue. Through force and brokenness this was given to me, and from then on I was able to express (and this experience) emotions deeper than I could ever express the way I was born, "meant".

Not to say this was not "enabled" in the first place by psychedelics - just that there are several layers of the religious, of divinity - and I refer to the experience.

But tonight I had a dream, in line with what you have been saying recently, about the town of Carcassonne. I did not dream the whole story, but a shred of it was offered me, leaving me rather unsettled and awake.
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04-04-2013, 05:17 AM Post: #12
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RE: Ontology and epistemology
I don't think it was coincidence, in the philosophical sense, that I walked the same path as you but facing the other way.

You and I, we're like a Heraclitean dichotomy!

May the world brace itself for our sillyness. It will go deep.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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04-04-2013, 06:05 AM (This post was last modified: 04-04-2013 06:06 AM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #13
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RE: Ontology and epistemology
"The world is deep, and deeper than the day had thought"

The "day" being the singular Apollonium. The day thinks, the world is. Thoughts collide, and become existence, spilling their lifeblood onto the ever thirsty earth.

COME! COME! COME! LET US NOW WANDER! IT IS THE HOUR: LET US WANDER INTO THE NIGHT!

Ye higher men, it is getting on to midnight: then will I say something into your ears, as that old clock-bell saith it into mine ear,--

As mysteriously, as frightfully, and as cordially as that midnight clock- bell speaketh it to me, which hath experienced more than one man:

Which hath already counted the smarting throbbings of your fathers' hearts--ah! ah! how it sigheth! how it laugheth in its dream! the old, deep, deep midnight!

Hush! Hush! Then is there many a thing heard which may not be heard by day; now however, in the cool air, when even all the tumult of your hearts hath become still,--

Now doth it speak, now is it heard, now doth it steal into overwakeful, nocturnal souls: ah! ah! how the midnight sigheth! how it laugheth in its dream!

Hearest thou not how it mysteriously, frightfully, and cordially speaketh unto THEE, the old deep, deep midnight?

O MAN, TAKE HEED!

No day without a ending night. No night without a broken day.
How does the end of the night come? The day comes like a cruel conquerer, indifferent and already victorious, no sign of glory.

In this land there is a watery sun. It does not overwhelm.
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04-04-2013, 06:15 AM Post: #14
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RE: Ontology and epistemology
It is not overwhelming that the philosopher fears most, but underwhelming.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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04-04-2013, 06:19 AM Post: #15
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RE: Ontology and epistemology
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
- Thucydides

see it now?

Thunderbolt steers all things.
- Heraclitus

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### Re: New Moon Ashes

in terms of what I want to accomplish and am able to be. EA makes it slightly easier to 'zero in' on influences.

But I am truly a novice at this - I began my experiments two years ago. I also don't know how you are used to working - perhaps you can propose a chart to examine.

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" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
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PostSubject: Re: Natural World Ashes Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:29 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
A thread where I will post my running thoughts on astrology, along with ongoing explanation of and reflection on what the hell astrology is anyway. First a couple of basics - there is a lot of ground to cover to make it understandable in the first place.

This is a natal chart.

The colored symbols on the outside of the wheel, from the top clockwise, are:

Jupiter (at '2 o clock')
Mars
Neptune
Pluto
Venus
Sun
Mercury
Moon
Saturn
Uranus

AC stands for Ascendant, meaning rising sign - the horizon at time of birth.

Analyzing a chart can start in different ways. Usually one looks at the sign and house occupied by the sun. In this case, the Sun is in Aries, and the second house. In fact the time of birth of this person is in question, but it does not matter for I am just using it as an example of how to read a chart.

The Houses are sections of the sky which is divided in 12 parts analogous to the signs. During a day, as the Earth rotates around its axis, all the asteroids, planets, stars and signs 'travel' through the 12 houses. A house thus represents a window of two hours. The houses stand for roughly the same as the signs they correspond with.

house 1: I
house 2: values
house 3: communication
house 4: home
house 5: creativity
house 6: service
house 7: others
house 8: "sex and death other peoples money"
house 9: travel, religion, philosophy, law
house 10: ambition, standing
house 11: friends, groups, allies
house 12: self-undoing, faith, surrender

The Sun of the persons natal chart occupies Aries in the second house. The Sun, representing much the life-force, is in the "I will" sign of Aries, in the house of values. It suggests a strong willed person who is not about to give up on his (it is a man) values.

Close to the Sun is Mercury (as always, obviously from a geocentric perspective Mercury can not be very far from the Sun). Mercury stands for communications, intellect ('rules' the third house and the corresponding sign of Gemini). It is on the threshold ("cusp") of the first and second house. the person expresses and thinks in terms of both self and values. One could speculate the value of the self would be much present in this persons communications (And no, this is not my own natal chart, by the way - just a hero of mine.)

The planets, a term that in this contexts rather annoyingly includes the Sun and moon. Obviously the categorizations are never complete, as this is not an 'exact' science but a living body of very ancient and continuously growing empirical data, on the basis of which virtually the entire collection of known myths and mysticisms is built.

Sun: Life-force, 'naive' drive, power, identity.
Moon: Sentiment, Mother, body, feeling, belonging, safety.
Mercury: Intellect, expression.
Venus: Attraction, Earthly values, affection, money.
Mars: Force, determination, strength, passion.
Jupiter: Expansiveness, nobility, generosity, luck, philosophy, law.
Saturn: Restriction, responsibility, severity, realism.
Uranus: Sudden force, technology, intuition, individualism, freedom.
Neptune: Poetry, mysticism, intoxication.
Pluto: Power, chance, death and resurrection, invisible influence.

The Aspects - this is what you see represented as the colored lines in between certain planets. These represent the angles to which the planets stand from a geocentric perspective - the angles at which they operated on us at the time we emerged from our mother and became our own little electromagnetic system. In the chart above we see red lines, blue lines, green lines and a light blue line. Red lines stand for hard aspects - angles of 90 and 180 degrees. These aspects represent 'challenges' - things that do not go smoothly, need work, cause trouble. The blue lines stand for harmonic aspects - angles of 60 and 120 degrees. These aspects represent 'ease' - things with which we are 'blessed', powers we have that tend to go unnoticed by us, taken for granted, but which attract others to us. One could call them talents, but that gets confusing, as a talent may come in the guise of a challenge. Also there are many other aspects - in fact of course every angle is a "harmony". But I will now stick to the main, most clearly effective ones.

In general we can see that there is a certain logic in the organization of a circle divided in 12 parts, and the prominence of the factors 2, 3, 4 and 6. The factors 2 and 4 form hard angles and the 3 and 6 factors soft ones. There are other ways in which the factors 3 and 4 play a part, more on that later. First a list of the main aspects.

180 degrees: opposition. The planets are working against each other, causing conflict, doubt and error in the areas they represent.
120 degrees: trine. The planets are working with each other, mutually feeding each others strength, causing power and luck in the areas they represent.
90 degrees: square. The planets are at odds: cutting into each others realm of influence, causing a permanent state of conflict, from which a great deal of awareness and steering force is necessitated and thus, over time, created.
60 degrees: sextile. The planets are at ease, operating alongside each other harmoniously, and allowing for fluid combination of the areas represented by them.
0 degrees: conjunction. The influences of the planets are merged.

There is a main special case, the 72 degree aspect, the factor 5. This is called the quintile. It is prominent in many charts of exceptionally talented and/or lucky people. It is called a 'magical' aspect.

All aspects are calculated with a certain margin. The more fundamental an aspect is, the greater the margin. A conjunction is calculated with a margin of up to 10 degrees, a trine usually 5, up to 8 when it involves major 'planets' such as the Sun, a sextile 3 to 5, a quintile around 2.

Personally I find the opposition to be the most interesting aspect. It represents the greatest challenge, and some oppositions are an almost fail-proof recipe for disaster. However, there is hardly any interesting artist who does not have one or more oppositions in his chart. We know that art is born of conflict, and this is reinforced by looking at astrological chart. The person to whom the chart above belongs has an incredibly difficult opposition - Moon opposed Pluto and Neptune.

I have seen Moon-Pluto oppositions, and they aren't pretty. Invariably they belong to people who cause suffering (mothers fucking up their children) or are made to suffer. Moon-Neptune oppositions are much more innocent, but still wildly difficult to deal with - they relate to drug abuse, telepathy, lack of personal borders, etc. The combination of Pluto and Neptune opposed by the moon suggests a conflict and awareness of virtually limitless proportions. Of course, Neptune and Pluto were conjunct for a very long time, and every month people were born with the moon opposing this conjunction. This person happened to amount to a great deal, but there are millions who 'suffered the same fate' to an extent - I'd expect a lot of people to have gone insane under that aspect. But I am wandering. Hell, this is a wander-thread anyhow. I will wander a bit further even and post a description of oppositions I wrote some time ago. Some insight can be gained from these about the nature of the signs, which I will describe later.

Oppositions:

Since oppositions form an axis, from one sign to the opposite (in most cases), it seems to me that, next to producing a tension or perhaps rather 'debility' between those planets that are opposed, they allow for the possibility of the subject experiencing that axis as a whole. The whole deal, with all of it's contradictions.

A significant planetary Aries-Libra opposition would mean that one is initially completely bewildered as to how to address oneself and the world, and eventually learns to know the 'inner mechanics' of the I versus Them/Y'all axis, and become something of an expert on psycho-social matters, at least with the energy brought about by the combination of the relevant planets.

A Taurus-Scorpio opposition would mean that one is bewildered about ones own physical values and the "value exchange" that is death, sex and the economic-world. One would have a lot of fears and anxieties about values, until one learns to come to a generalized understanding of value, to find ones proper perspective in the matter by a greater overview.

A Gemini-Sagittarius opposition would mean that there is bewilderment in terms of ones personal expression and intelligence versus the established intelligentia (law, religion, philosophy) and that one is unable to find and settle on a "my truth" because personal truth is so deeply incompatible with established truth. In the end one would learn the mechanics of truth-establishment - one would become a philosopher, and transcend ones personal perspective, and be able to produce great clarity applicable by many.

A Cancer-Capricorn opposition would mean a bewilderment in terms of ones home and ones place in the world - unable to feel at home and to choose a career - bringing home matters to work, work to home, in excessive or inappropriate ways; the resolution might be something from a professional patriot (for example a politician or a nationalistic artist), to someone whose work relates to homes, or works at home... not so sure about this one, cancer/4th house is kind of a mystery to me.

Leo-Aquarius opposition would mean a bewilderment about self-expression and group-interest, feeling drawn to "mean something to a group" and yet insisting on doing everything ones own way, and this could be resolved in attaining a position of responsibility whereby ones ego is fed by the respect one gets from the group.

Virgo-Pisces opposition would mean... tough one... I have these signs intercepted... still on the quest to determine their meaning in my own terms. I guess, it would be a bewilderment in terms of the physical and the 'spiritual' inability to "choose a conviction", and when resolved, would result in the ability to transcend the spirit/matter duality, and fulfill ones spiritual role on earth with very real results.

These are all gross generalizations, I am trying to convey the general idea. Oppositions certainly produce an extended, 'self-transcendent' consciousness -- they are much underrated -- it is an aspect that, due to the vast terrain it forces the native to deal with (an entire axis, a whole duality, 'world'), produces a strong creative will. If you'll look at charts of strong, transformative artists, you'll very often, I'd say almost invariably find oppositions.

It's for a good part a process of testing established theory empirically. Much of what I wrote here is fairly well established (within astrology, of course - within science there is zero acceptance of the idea that it even could be valid, but since I am working empirically, I am indifferent to such dogma) but it has all passed through the filter of my own experimenting and verifying. I have been occupied with astrology very intensively for the past seven or eight years, and have, in recent years as I grew confident that it's really quite possible to gain real and useful insight in this way, done a good number of readings of peoples charts, which are without exception received as accurate, usually very accurate.

The part that makes me a good astrologer is however not simply reiterating existing theory, it is a capacity for 'live' combination and examination of elements in meditation. Since these influences do in fact work (of course I am not expecting you or anyone to take my word on it, this thread is just meant to provide information about what astrology is) it is possible for me to experience them at any given moment. The nature of my mind is such that I can hold two influences in my concentration and examine them in relation to each other with great accuracy.

There is certainly some 'beef' that I have with some existing theory, but mainly that goes for interpretations on newly found objects such as the asteroid Chiron. I have come up with a quite different interpretation than what the community has so far been able to produce, and this interpretation has been well received. I was able to look at it from a perspective that no one had thought of. Of course, as astrology is an empirical discipline (and not an abstract one) it takes numerous decades, the work of many astrologers for an influence to be understood to a good degree.

But let's for a moment address, or acknowledge the question that is no doubt on your and most peoples mind: how can astrology work? This question has not left my mind since I began to notice that it does work. I have at last, upon learning that we have EM fields within every brain cell, accepted that there must be some influence radiating from cosmic objects, that to deny that would be to deny the laws of physics, of causality. But this is not entirely satisfactory, given for example the enormous astrological influence of Pluto, which is a very small object very far from Earth.

Only recently I figured out how Pluto can have such influence. It may have to do with the irregularity of its orbit compared to that of the other planets. Where the 'ordinary' planets are very neatly organized around the sun in 'matching' orbits, symmetrical to each other, Pluto's orbit slightly destabilizes this whole system, as it has a more elliptical path. So my interpretation now is that Pluto doesn't so much work on the individual himself directly as on the state of the entire solar system, and indirectly on the individual. This would very much correspond to the theory that has been established on Pluto's influence - Pluto is seen as a 'subversive' influence, something beneath the surface, underlying other influences. Of course Pluto isn't the only object to which this would apply.

Since very recently I have been looking at the recently discovered Eris, or UB313, slightly larger than Pluto (causing Pluto to be degraded by astronomers to asteroid or dwarf-planet) which has an even more deviating orbit.

So once again - the size of Pluto and Eris do not suggest that they could be of great influence, but what apparently (and not illogically) matters is their behavior in relation to the other objects, to the system as a whole.

Then, next to the rather simple reliance on EM and gravity to explain the influences, there is another form of interpretation, which Aletheia/Capable from BTL has developed, to do with the different layers of causality, 'projection' of one layer unto the other, etc. This is far too involved and complicated for me to be able to explicate right here and now, but I should mention it to give an idea of what I am working with to explain what astrologers have been observing since the beginning of human culture.

Recently I was struck again by an interesting phenomenon that I've seen occur. It's not accepted theory as far as I've read, but it's undeniably real to me in some cases. What is the case? Look at the above chart. Moon in Sagittarius opposes Neptune in Gemini, by around 2 degrees. Well within the limit for an opposition, which might be set at 10, like a conjunction or 5-8, like a square. In any case it's tight. What happens is that the native strongly fits the usual description of a moon in Gemini placement, as well as a Neptune in Sagittarius one. Sometimes this appearance is even stronger than the characteristics corresponding to the 'real' placement. The relevance to the native of characterizations of the planet all across the Zodiac does however remains contained to the realm within the aspects of the planet in question. In other words, it does not point to there not being any real rules after all, to astrology being pure projection, which is what I still consider in all moments when I am forced to deviate from common theory. There is an actual exchange going on along the axis of influence between two planets.

The explanation is not very difficult to divine, I fear. Any aspect opens up the person to a duality. When it is a duality that is pertinent to the main energy currents of the individual life, the two forces dance around each other long deep and intimately and get familiar among each others contexts. A multi-aspected planet would be 'all over the place'.

Transits are the stuff of ongoing predictive astrology. It is what is used by governments and corporations to set dates for the launch of projects, be they wars, laws, products, liquidations or whatever. We speak of a transit when a planet moves across a significant point of a natal chart - the name natal chart here is a bit misleading as nations have such charts, as do websites like this, as does anything that 'comes into being' at a given time. The natal chart of the US is, if I am not mistaken, drawn by the moment of the signing of the declaration of independence. When Gobbo have me the date and time for the launch of this site, I was struck with how the chart corresponds precisely to what it has turned out to be so far, as well as some other correspondences. When Microsoft launches a new Windows OS or Apple a new Iphone, you can be sure the timing is carefully calculated using astrology. There's just too much to lose by not using this means, and nothing to lose by using it. As Churchill said: "If Hitler is using it, so am I". Churchill who has one of the most phenomenal natal charts I have ever seen, by the way.

I will give an example of a transit. Currently, this is the situation from the perspective of New York.

If you look at the sign that is marked in blue and looks like this "II", the sign of Gemini, you'll see that at 12 degrees, there is a grey symbol of a moon with a cross underneath. This is the symbol for Lilith, the Dark moon, which represents the mirror point of the Earth in the elliptical orbit of the moon around the Earth. It's a 'planet' (in fact a mathematical point in space) that is of a great significance that is very complicated to explain, but this is not the point right now. I just want to explain what a transit is, which is in fact very simple. Look at the chart at the top of the thread: at 11 degrees Gemini you'll find Pluto. This means that Lilith has just transited the Pluto of the person to which this chart belongs. Let's call this person "Ted". We say that "Lilith is transiting Ted's Pluto".

What happens during a transit is that the energy of the transiting planet activates the energy of the natal planet (Ted's natal Pluto) as it is ingrained in the chart. In fact a Lilith/Dark Moon - Pluto transit is a very heavy thing, as both of the two planets related heavily to what Jung calls "The Shadow" - "taboo" issues such as raw sexual magnetism and obsession. This would be an intense time for Ted, in which he would be forced to deal with issues that he would normally repress.

Naturally, transits are continuously occurring in every natal chart. Even if ones planets are concentrated in one sign, which is extremely rare and the case for no one alive now, the moon would transit this cluster every month. Moon transits are very quickly over, but they are by no means mild or insignificant. A friend of mine recently told me of a very powerful sexual experience, so I was curious about the transits occurring then. As it happened the moon, together with the ascendant, was transiting his Pluto/ascendant conjunction. Moon-Pluto accounts for a lot of deeply sexual psychology, the ascendant is a point of personal focus. The moments focus that night coincided with the natal focus, and this all coincided with a moon transit across natal Pluto.

A birthday is simply the Sun transiting the natal Sun. Slower moving planets, such as Saturn, which takes about 30 years to pass through the entire Zodiac, form transits that last longer. Saturn transiting a planet brings out the heavier necessities related to that planet, and it can bring things like financial breakthroughs or ruin as well as finding ones calling or deep crises. Saturn transiting natal Saturn is called the Saturn Return. Actually that terms is used to indicate the period from when Saturn enters the sign in which the natal Saturn is placed, until its exit. This period is set around ones 29/30/31st year. Most people will experience a deep transformation and focus or shift of purpose during this time. It is the first of a couple of deep 'crisis' moments caused by the slower moving planets. The next one, occurring around the 42nd birthday, is the Uranus Opposition, in which Uranus opposes the natal Uranus. This is the moment of midlife crisis, when one truly is forced to let go (Uranus: revolution, crisis, shock, renewal) of all old and artificial comforts and truly become self-created individual. The phrase "Life begins at 40" relates to this Uranus transit.

If you find yourself in an inexplicable crisis, a period of intense stress or oppression for which no clear reason can be found, you can be quite sure that one of the heavier planets is transiting a sensitive point in your chart.

To facilitate the analyses which anyone may want to undertake based on this information, I can offer two things - a personal reading, for which you can PM me and which I may or may not want to do depending on the urgency of the situation (I'm always glad to help out someone in need, but the work of interpreting is involved so I have to be convinced that there is a real improvement to make), and more easily, two web addresses using which you can gather the relevant information yourself.

Here is a page showing the current state of affairs over NY, this can be reconfigured to apply to any city in the world. Be sure to click on "next" twice so that the relevant city will show above the displayed chart.
Here is a link to a page where you can generate your natal chart.

These two generators are all you need to find out the current transits applying to any chart.

___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
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PostSubject: Re: Natural World Ashes Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:31 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Odysseus ist allmählich zum schlauen Sclaven geworden (in der Komödie).

Odysseus is gradually to clever slave become (in the comedy)

Aeschylus hat den freien Faltenwurf des Gemüths aufgebracht.

Aeschylus has the free drapery of the mood angered.

Trivialität des Prozesses: außerordentlich naiver Stand des Socrates, des fanatischen Dialektikers.

Triviality of the process: extraordinarily naive position of Socrates, the fanatical Dialectics.
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04-14-2013, 09:59 AM (This post was last modified: 04-14-2013 10:00 AM by JSS.) Post: #2
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RE: German
American English

WTF!!
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04-19-2013, 07:31 PM Post: #3
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RE: German
Mais la, c'est tres beau. Deja, je peus m'imaginer un peu l'esprit Alemagne, pas si loin de l'esprit Spagniol traditionaliste. Comme tu disais, plus Latin que les langues Romantiques!

O como se dice en criollo, más papista que el papa.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"

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Case in Favor of Caste system
03-28-2013, 10:21 AM (This post was last modified: 03-28-2013 10:22 AM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #1
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Case in Favor of Caste system
There are two types, at least, of human affiliation. Intellectual ("spiritual") and physical (instinctual).

These realities operate throughout each other, but nevertheless, they are marked in individuals. Some individuals are simply not able to think, to 'entertain' themselves by thought. These people are a lower caste. It is not useful to deny this. Reality is regulated by man in the measure in which he admits to himself that it exists. This is easier when it comes to "objective" phenomena, things that go for all species and minerals alike, than diversity-based realities, such as "love" - the specification of will, the fabric, the manner in which it is of value.

Castes are touchstones for value, and self-value. A lower case derives its self-value from revenge, instinct, direct gratification.
A higher caste creates its self-valuing consciously, by every act it tries to increase its standard.

It is not necessary to distinguish into 4 castes. We can simply observe two, to begin with.
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03-28-2013, 11:39 AM Post: #2
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RE: Case in Favor of Caste system
This is just classes.

Caste implies reincarnation.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?
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03-28-2013, 12:39 PM Post: #3
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RE: Case in Favor of Caste system
Hmm... Two is an ok number. It's the loneliest number since the number one, and perhaps that makes it good for sowing.

In the Sawelios sense, maybe, there is a reencarnative value to this ordering.

Class implies economy, a truly specific order of vlauation (a rapist one, as Nietzsche might have called it). My distaste for Marx...

Yet I can accept the step, if Nietzsche as the Hammer, Marx as the Shoe. I honestly haven't even read much Marx. Some stuff about fetishism I really liked, but seemed oh so cold. Maybe the Earth we step on is still Hot, much too hot for comfort in barefootedness.
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03-28-2013, 01:01 PM Post: #4
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RE: Case in Favor of Caste system
You can sum up Marx in Virginia Woolf's A Room of One's Own
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?
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03-29-2013, 11:21 PM Post: #5
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RE: Case in Favor of Caste system
Quote:
Class implies economy, a truly specific order of vlauation (a rapist one, as Nietzsche might have called it). My distaste for Marx...

No, class only implies standard.
Value-sociology... organize in terms of values, real ones, held ones, proper ones, existential ones. Not Marxist ones, metaphysical, moral, universal distinctions.

We communicate values. Classes are aggregates of communicating networks. They are not strictly isolated, but they are fundamentally differing.

This new soup, the egalitarian humanist world is only now becoming evident to me as a new lower class, to a new pyramid. From this great mass of people refusing to "admit color" (I dont know how to translate this poker term) eventually something must break out, upward, to form a second class, a higher one, that refuses to deal in terms of what is understood by all. A new standard, unattainable by the lower class. From our modern-primordial soup, this subdomain "land" must arise. We can't and won't all forever be swimming, with Luca Brasi, etc.

Quote:
Yet I can accept the step, if Nietzsche as the Hammer, Marx as the Shoe. I honestly haven't even read much Marx. Some stuff about fetishism I really liked, but seemed oh so cold. Maybe the Earth we step on is still Hot, much too hot for comfort in barefootedness.

Me neither. I prefer Hegel when it comes to dialectics. But I respect Marx as an extension of Hegel. And I can only read Hegel in terms of VO and WtP.
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03-30-2013, 09:59 AM (This post was last modified: 03-30-2013 10:03 AM by Heathen.) Post: #6
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RE: Case in Favor of Caste system
(03-28-2013 10:21 AM)Fixed Cross Wrote:
Some individuals are simply not able to think, to 'entertain' themselves by thought. These people are a lower caste
I dunno what is meant by thought here, but people who entertain themselves with thoughts seems to include a lot of mental noise wankery focused people also. And then there are those who would never open certain kinds of philosophy etc. works, but who can more directly get stuff, and don't really get into wordy wordy mind stuff. Which is not to say they are not thinking, but it's not the first way I would try to describe them. And these are definitely not lower caste. Though, certainly, over history and through many lives they sure have been treated as lower caste.

Quote:
A lower case derives its self-value from revenge, instinct, direct gratification.
A higher caste creates its self-valuing consciously, by every act it tries to increase its standard.
OK, getting a better sense here. The artistic type can definitely be included here, though why limit the way one self-defines. Why can't one have both and be better for it, rather than cutting off from one facet of being human to be 'higher'.

It's like some age old competition between chakras if you'll pardon my sanskrit, the upper ones saying only they are good.

Heart attack.
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03-30-2013, 12:31 PM Post: #7
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RE: Case in Favor of Caste system
I think the very name Natural World Order indicates that our message is a different one.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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03-30-2013, 01:36 PM Post: #8
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RE: Case in Favor of Caste system
I imagine most secret societies started this way.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?
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03-30-2013, 01:44 PM Post: #9
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RE: Case in Favor of Caste system
(03-30-2013 12:31 PM)pezer Wrote:
I think the very name Natural World Order indicates that our message is a different one.
OK. I didn't know that everyone had the same system of thought here.
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03-30-2013, 05:39 PM Post: #10
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RE: Case in Favor of Caste system
You move in leaps... You risk running around the world without stepping more than a few times.

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- Thucydides

Last edited by Fixed Cross on Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Natural World Ashes Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:31 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Odysseus ist allmählich zum schlauen Sclaven geworden (in der Komödie).

Odysseus is gradually to clever slave become (in the comedy)

Aeschylus hat den freien Faltenwurf des Gemüths aufgebracht.

Aeschylus has the free drapery of the mood angered.

Trivialität des Prozesses: außerordentlich naiver Stand des Socrates, des fanatischen Dialektikers.

Triviality of the process: extraordinarily naive position of Socrates, the fanatical Dialectics.
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04-14-2013, 09:59 AM (This post was last modified: 04-14-2013 10:00 AM by JSS.) Post: #2
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RE: German
American English

WTF!!
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04-19-2013, 07:31 PM Post: #3
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RE: German
Mais la, c'est tres beau. Deja, je peus m'imaginer un peu l'esprit Alemagne, pas si loin de l'esprit Spagniol traditionaliste. Comme tu disais, plus Latin que les langues Romantiques!

O como se dice en criollo, más papista que el papa.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"

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/ Academic / Law / Case in Favor of Caste system

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Case in Favor of Caste system
03-28-2013, 10:21 AM (This post was last modified: 03-28-2013 10:22 AM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #1
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Case in Favor of Caste system
There are two types, at least, of human affiliation. Intellectual ("spiritual") and physical (instinctual).

These realities operate throughout each other, but nevertheless, they are marked in individuals. Some individuals are simply not able to think, to 'entertain' themselves by thought. These people are a lower caste. It is not useful to deny this. Reality is regulated by man in the measure in which he admits to himself that it exists. This is easier when it comes to "objective" phenomena, things that go for all species and minerals alike, than diversity-based realities, such as "love" - the specification of will, the fabric, the manner in which it is of value.

Castes are touchstones for value, and self-value. A lower case derives its self-value from revenge, instinct, direct gratification.
A higher caste creates its self-valuing consciously, by every act it tries to increase its standard.

It is not necessary to distinguish into 4 castes. We can simply observe two, to begin with.
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03-28-2013, 11:39 AM Post: #2
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RE: Case in Favor of Caste system
This is just classes.

Caste implies reincarnation.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?
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03-28-2013, 12:39 PM Post: #3
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RE: Case in Favor of Caste system
Hmm... Two is an ok number. It's the loneliest number since the number one, and perhaps that makes it good for sowing.

In the Sawelios sense, maybe, there is a reencarnative value to this ordering.

Class implies economy, a truly specific order of vlauation (a rapist one, as Nietzsche might have called it). My distaste for Marx...

Yet I can accept the step, if Nietzsche as the Hammer, Marx as the Shoe. I honestly haven't even read much Marx. Some stuff about fetishism I really liked, but seemed oh so cold. Maybe the Earth we step on is still Hot, much too hot for comfort in barefootedness.
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03-28-2013, 01:01 PM Post: #4
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RE: Case in Favor of Caste system
You can sum up Marx in Virginia Woolf's A Room of One's Own
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?
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03-29-2013, 11:21 PM Post: #5
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RE: Case in Favor of Caste system
Quote:
Class implies economy, a truly specific order of vlauation (a rapist one, as Nietzsche might have called it). My distaste for Marx...

No, class only implies standard.
Value-sociology... organize in terms of values, real ones, held ones, proper ones, existential ones. Not Marxist ones, metaphysical, moral, universal distinctions.

We communicate values. Classes are aggregates of communicating networks. They are not strictly isolated, but they are fundamentally differing.

This new soup, the egalitarian humanist world is only now becoming evident to me as a new lower class, to a new pyramid. From this great mass of people refusing to "admit color" (I dont know how to translate this poker term) eventually something must break out, upward, to form a second class, a higher one, that refuses to deal in terms of what is understood by all. A new standard, unattainable by the lower class. From our modern-primordial soup, this subdomain "land" must arise. We can't and won't all forever be swimming, with Luca Brasi, etc.

Quote:
Yet I can accept the step, if Nietzsche as the Hammer, Marx as the Shoe. I honestly haven't even read much Marx. Some stuff about fetishism I really liked, but seemed oh so cold. Maybe the Earth we step on is still Hot, much too hot for comfort in barefootedness.

Me neither. I prefer Hegel when it comes to dialectics. But I respect Marx as an extension of Hegel. And I can only read Hegel in terms of VO and WtP.
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03-30-2013, 09:59 AM (This post was last modified: 03-30-2013 10:03 AM by Heathen.) Post: #6
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RE: Case in Favor of Caste system
(03-28-2013 10:21 AM)Fixed Cross Wrote:
Some individuals are simply not able to think, to 'entertain' themselves by thought. These people are a lower caste
I dunno what is meant by thought here, but people who entertain themselves with thoughts seems to include a lot of mental noise wankery focused people also. And then there are those who would never open certain kinds of philosophy etc. works, but who can more directly get stuff, and don't really get into wordy wordy mind stuff. Which is not to say they are not thinking, but it's not the first way I would try to describe them. And these are definitely not lower caste. Though, certainly, over history and through many lives they sure have been treated as lower caste.

Quote:
A lower case derives its self-value from revenge, instinct, direct gratification.
A higher caste creates its self-valuing consciously, by every act it tries to increase its standard.
OK, getting a better sense here. The artistic type can definitely be included here, though why limit the way one self-defines. Why can't one have both and be better for it, rather than cutting off from one facet of being human to be 'higher'.

It's like some age old competition between chakras if you'll pardon my sanskrit, the upper ones saying only they are good.

Heart attack.
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03-30-2013, 12:31 PM Post: #7
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RE: Case in Favor of Caste system
I think the very name Natural World Order indicates that our message is a different one.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"

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RE: Case in Favor of Caste system
You move in leaps... You risk running around the world without stepping more than a few times.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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PostSubject: Re: Natural World Ashes Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:34 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
RE: Case in Favor of Caste system
(03-30-2013 09:59 AM)Heathen Wrote:
Quote:
A lower case derives its self-value from revenge, instinct, direct gratification.
A higher caste creates its self-valuing consciously, by every act it tries to increase its standard.
OK, getting a better sense here. The artistic type can definitely be included here, though why limit the way one self-defines. Why can't one have both and be better for it, rather than cutting off from one facet of being human to be 'higher'.

It's like some age old competition between chakras if you'll pardon my sanskrit, the upper ones saying only they are good.

Heart attack.

No one says anything about the lower ones being "not good" - they're just low. The lower chakra's aren't as high as the higher chakra's. Still they are equally required, they need to do the physical work, be the instincts.

Our modern problem then would seem to be the elevation of the lower chakra's to the realm of the higher ones, and since that is really impossible as there simply isn't the capacity for creative thought in the gut, the debasing of the higher ones into the realm of the lower ones.

Right now, everything is measured in terms of the lower chakra's / castes. And there it comes again - relativism, is the moral thoughtmodel that justifies/enables this.

The beauty of the chakra system is that it has an ascending order. All is required, and sure, all stand relative to each other, but that does not mean that there isn't a hierarchy. The relativity is due to the hierarchical ordering. If there weren't that difference, there would be no relation. Most western spiritualism focuses now on the re integration of the lower instincts into the moral mind. That is all good and well and required when one has repressed them, but in order to integrate them, they have to be refined. They have to be "translated" into the higher mind.
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03-31-2013, 12:12 AM Post: #12
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RE: Case in Favor of Caste system
Hell, the higher mind itself needs to prepare itself.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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03-31-2013, 08:55 AM Post: #13
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RE: Case in Favor of Caste system
(03-30-2013 09:29 PM)Fixed Cross Wrote:
Our modern problem then would seem to be the elevation of the lower chakra's to the realm of the higher ones, and since that is really impossible as there simply isn't the capacity for creative thought in the gut, the debasing of the higher ones into the realm of the lower ones.
I do see that pattern in many subcultures, absolutely. Though after a few thousand years of saying the lower chakras were evil - via judgments of bodies passion anger emotions in general, sex, intensity, desire.....-there was bound to be an overbalancing. And yet still these judgments are out there also. There is a neo-freedom. A consumerist, passive wanking the lower chakras in privacy or in mobs. Fashionable lower chakra expression.

Try actually expressing the lower chakras in an individual way, with lower chakra insights into what is actually going on, and you will see how strong the judgments about the lower chakras still are out there, even in the groups that seem to worship them.

Then you have all the ratinalist, academic, philosophical, science groupie utter hatred of the lower chakras except for their own righteous wrath at the 'irrational' people they do not quite understand but something sets off their rage and urge to smite like some old pagan diety.

To me I see upper chakra thoughts masquerading as freed up lower chakras. It's mostly ideas of freedom, ideas of 'release' and cooltoexpress.

Then the mass of the power structure is very cool, upper chakra, really rather quite BLUE pulling the strings, stimulating and distracting and working the fundamentalists up into frenzies also. It is a BLUE society conquering the West and everyting will be the WEST soon enough in any way that matters.

Quote:
Right now, everything is measured in terms of the lower chakra's / castes. And there it comes again - relativism, is the moral thoughtmodel that justifies/enables this.
Relativism is an upper chakra creation. Not that you are saying it isn't.

Quote:
The beauty of the chakra system is that it has an ascending order. All is required, and sure, all stand relative to each other, but that does not mean that there isn't a hierarchy. The relativity is due to the hierarchical ordering. If there weren't that difference, there would be no relation. Most western spiritualism focuses now on the re integration of the lower instincts into the moral mind. That is all good and well and required when one has repressed them, but in order to integrate them, they have to be refined. They have to be "translated" into the higher mind.
I would say quite the opposite. The mind needs to [gently at first] release its grip on everything. Blue control and habitual insight, seeing what it believes and punishing what it thinks it does not like before it understands it. After thousands of years of being raped in the dark by priests and nobles and soldiers, and then in the light being told they were the root of evil and creators of darkness
the lower chakras don't need to be refined, they need to be rescued and given some water, a sandwich and time to breathe and relax. And because this entails the mind actually releasing, for a time - though the mind thinks it will be forever - the mind thinks it will go insane, become a mass murderer, never have that precious handle it thinks it has on reality.
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03-31-2013, 08:58 AM Post: #14
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RE: Case in Favor of Caste system
(03-30-2013 05:39 PM)pezer Wrote:
You move in leaps... You risk running around the world without stepping more than a few times.
There are always risks. Don't know if you meant 'one' or me in particular. I see a lot of leaping here, even in assessment.
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03-31-2013, 11:04 AM Post: #15
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RE: Case in Favor of Caste system
Just that to say that the name Natural World Order says something new about power structures is saying something. It's almost a raw element, not reducible, certainly, to adherence and non-adherence.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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03-31-2013, 11:15 AM Post: #16
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RE: Case in Favor of Caste system
(03-31-2013 11:04 AM)pezer Wrote:
Just that to say that the name Natural World Order says something new about power structures is saying something. It's almost a raw element, not reducible, certainly, to adherence and non-adherence.
Sure, but we have seen new power structures, even ones based on some good knowledge about what was problematic in the older ones, do some fairly anti-life stuff. So just because the forum is populated by people that feel some alignment with a very abstract ideal does not mean there are no seeds of problems in their conceptions.
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03-31-2013, 11:28 AM Post: #17
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RE: Case in Favor of Caste system
I feel no responsibility for the actions of those I don't feel I can challenge to a duel to the death.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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04-12-2013, 09:21 AM (This post was last modified: 04-12-2013 09:25 AM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #18
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RE: Case in Favor of Caste system
(03-31-2013 08:55 AM)Heathen Wrote:
I do see that pattern in many subcultures, absolutely. Though after a few thousand years of saying the lower chakras were evil - via judgments of bodies passion anger emotions in general, sex, intensity, desire.....-there was bound to be an overbalancing. And yet still these judgments are out there also. There is a neo-freedom. A consumerist, passive wanking the lower chakras in privacy or in mobs. Fashionable lower chakra expression.
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
- Thucydides

see it now?

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### Re: New Moon Ashes

It's coming, but slowly. The instincts are always going to rule but they will only do so within the law if the law is great enough, vast enough in spirit.

For this, the instincts have to teach.
For this, they have to speak the language of the mind.
Adepthood means to trust the instincts as logos, knowing that they are not------- without the trumst. Much like love, but with the true elevation of latent genetic potential into actual 'will',- consciousness, 'power' - self-valuing - meaning-vortexing.

Quote:
Try actually expressing the lower chakras in an individual way, with lower chakra insights into what is actually going on, and you will see how strong the judgments about the lower chakras still are out there, even in the groups that seem to worship them.

Have you experienced stronger encounters with intolerance of your nature within or without yourself?

Quote:
Then you have all the ratinalist, academic, philosophical, science groupie utter hatred of the lower chakras except for their own righteous wrath at the 'irrational' people they do not quite understand but something sets off their rage and urge to smite like some old pagan diety.

In all people the lower chakra's rule, except in those who have mastered them. Those who deny them the rule is lawless - outside and without the law given by the higher chakra's. Unseen by the subject. He is a slave and needs hypocrisy and it's nephew - cruel and degenerating humor - to take control of his mind when he is doing what he does.

Quote:
To me I see upper chakra thoughts masquerading as freed up lower chakras. It's mostly ideas of freedom, ideas of 'release' and cooltoexpress.

Anyone who can manage to integrate the first chakra's in any way that is legitimate to him by the release of force into meaning, is due respect from me. It proves a deliberate effort to advance in gratitude of a challenge.

Then the path only begins.
All adepts are noble in their courage and 'sacrifice'.
They only know the law of bounty.

Quote:
Then the mass of the power structure is very cool, upper chakra, really rather quite BLUE pulling the strings, stimulating and distracting and working the fundamentalists up into frenzies also. It is a BLUE society conquering the West and everyting will be the WEST soon enough in any way that matters.

Nothing is set in stone. Especially not power.

Quote:
Quote:
Right now, everything is measured in terms of the lower chakra's / castes. And there it comes again - relativism, is the moral thoughtmodel that justifies/enables this.
Relativism is an upper chakra creation. Not that you are saying it isn't.

As a doctrine, yes, indeed all doctrines are.
But I give some credit to the idea that it is also out of a lack of upper chakra truth - a river run dry so to speak - and a last plan of saving what was still left, but would soon die if circumstances would continue to be demanding.
It's our Socrates - the ugly truths (all is equal in de end once you reduce it to the common denominator) - are to be preferred over the hard truths (difference, rank, 'oppression').

So yes - the hard truths are lower chakra. "Earth" - it demands a sacrifice of some 'self evident truths' to be true to it.

Quote:
The mind needs to [gently at first] release its grip on everything. Blue control and habitual insight, seeing what it believes and punishing what it thinks it does not like before it understands it. After thousands of years of being raped in the dark by priests and nobles and soldiers, and then in the light being told they were the root of evil and creators of darkness
the lower chakras don't need to be refined, they need to be rescued and given some water, a sandwich and time to breathe and relax. And because this entails the mind actually releasing, for a time - though the mind thinks it will be forever - the mind thinks it will go insane, become a mass murderer, never have that precious handle it thinks it has on reality.

No, the mind is also just an instincts. It simply needs to shed errors, and learn to see itself as the layer of self-valuing (Value Ontology does help here, precisely here, where 'matter as conscious' becomes the jynx factor) that is equal in mechanism to the atomic dynamisms of his reality - there is no essential difference between how the lower and the higher work. The higher can simply not live without the lower, but is far from evolved enough to truly compete with the lower. All its forms of dominance are only interpretation - a haphazard attempt to grasp what is going on in order to deal with the much larger problem: the infant "mind".

In so far as philosophy offers a post-Christian response to its mother-phenomenon, only few things have impressed me. One of those things is Parodites' "Daemonic" consciousness.

Parodites Wrote:
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04-12-2013, 10:38 AM (This post was last modified: 04-12-2013 01:43 PM by Heathen.) Post: #19
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RE: Case in Favor of Caste system
(04-12-2013 09:21 AM)Fixed Cross Wrote:
Have you experienced stronger encounters with intolerance of your nature within or without yourself?
Much less of both, since I know how to navigate the outer much better and when to express myself to 'them' and when not to. But the two are intimately tied to each other.

Quote:
In all people the lower chakra's rule, except in those who have mastered them.
Not at all. They are primarily run on ideologies, which I like clots in the upper chakras that think they are so smart and in the know. Even the hedonsims out their are run by thought programs in Blue (throat) or religious programming (Purple). Most of those who 'satify' themselves, have concepts of this from fixed ideas in those colors and then guilt and shame also coming downstream from the upper chakras. WE have thousands of years of upper chakra domination. Domination based on perverse versions of those chakras, but they have always been in the power positions in civilization, and even in more pagan/indigenous societies, though less so.
Quote:
Nothing is set in stone. Especially not power.
I agree, just noticing the way things have been.

Quote:
No, the mind is also just an instincts.[quote]I would call it habits, but that's not too far off.

I'll have to mull over the parodites...

A short response....
Quote:
"For it is only criminals who presume to damage other people nowadays without the aid of philosophy."
Robert Musil,
The Man Without Qualities
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04-14-2013, 02:46 AM (This post was last modified: 04-14-2013 02:51 AM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #20
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RE: Case in Favor of Caste system
" I'll have to mull over the parodites... "
His mind is like a Heathen God. Dense clouds of dark meaning, culminating in instants of enlightenment. Of course this second relies on the conducting power of the reader, who must be ground to his own illumination.

Somewhere on BTL there is a post about the emerging the reason as a cataclysmic event annihilating all previous relations between the drives. It revolutionized my conception of the evolution from instinct to mind. I have been trying to locate it but wasn't successful. But the idea can be found throughout his texts.

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RE: Case in Favor of Caste system
These separations, Fixed Cross, are likely to be a product of the artificiality of thought itself, or rather the historical expression of the artificiality of thought itself.

We make up because we make up, and the makers up end up on the beautiful minds of such as Heathen, pinning them down and stapling them to the proper historical power developments.
Science is found in the question

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PostSubject: Re: Natural World Ashes Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:37 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
unmaksed??????/
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05-06-2013, 03:24 PM Post: #2
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RE: unmaksed??????/
Lol...no.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?
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05-06-2013, 03:29 PM Post: #3
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RE: unmaksed??????/
lol

Good sites
Einstein said always hide your sources... but I figure among friends we may skip that rule. Perhaps a big mistake. Anyway - the reason to start this thread was something I found yesterday. I'm not going to make explicit why this site is already invaluable to me but, I recommend a calculated guess.

http://biznik.com/

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RE: Ethical Ape
He sticks to bananas, tried and true. I guess, then, I'm agreeing with Kierkegaard: repetition.
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05-25-2013, 01:39 AM (This post was last modified: 05-25-2013 01:40 AM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #3
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RE: Ethical Ape
He is ethical in the sense that he possesses something with which to suspend and pass judgment upon/elevate himself above what was formerly the merely lesser animal nature of immediately satisfied drive-causality.

What is ethical is so with respect to "past", to that for which the ethical itself acts as an over-growth and extra-dimensionalized law. This is precisely why the ethical, contrary to its condition, must always aim at "the future", at that which it is not (yet).
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.

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PostSubject: Re: Natural World Ashes Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:39 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I started writing a screenplay, just to be writing, practice. Since I'm not a native english speaker I will need help with the dialogue. I'd be interested to learn where you /any of you natives find the speech unnatural, and how you'd say it instead. Feel free to tear it to shreds. I must learn.

I'm pretty good at writing dialogue in Dutch, but no one is ever going to watch a Dutch movie. This is my predicament.

Code:

INT. OFFICE HALLWAY - DAY

A cleaning cart rolls through shiny corridors at a quick
pace. Suddenly it takes a turn and enters a doorway, and
another. Then it arrives at a closed door. A hand goes to the
knob and pulls it down. The doors open. Two startled faces
look towards the camera, one blond, in his late 30's, MIKE,
and another brown haired, over 60 years old, PETROWSKI, who
is of Russian descent but has been living in the US for

PETROWSKI
Hey! What the hell man?

We now see the person who was pushing the cart. It is a man
of Semite origin: MOSHE.

MOSHE
(very quickly)
I am sorry sirs I must clean.
Please, step aside for moment. I
need to get under desk. No
inconvenience for you at all, I
make very very quick. Please sir, I
must make.

Petrowski looks at Mike, bewildered.

MIKE
You gotta admire a sense of duty.

PETROWSKI
Is this some kind of joke?

Looks around the room.

PETROWSKI (CONT'D)
Why am I here?

Mike laughs thinly and waves to Moshe.

MIKE
It's okay boss. We'll be done here
in a minute and you can get under
the desk.

MOSHE
Yes but boss...

MIKE
Who's the boss, Moshe!

MOSHE
I am boss, sir!

MIKE
That's right. Here's a working man
for you Petrowski. Here's what it's

PETROWSKI

MIKE
America. Freedom of choice. Working
hard. Making a difference.

Petrowski is taken aback. Moshe begins to move back to the
door.

PETROWSKI
I respect that, Mike. That's why I
come to you with this info...

MIKE
(interrupting)
Yes indeed, damn fine coffee. I
will tell the wife to think about
it. She's awful set in her ways
however so...

The door shuts.

MIKE (CONT'D)
Slick, Petrowski. Do they teach you
that in Russia?

PETROWSKI
What?

MIKE
Talking to the cleaners about state

PETROWSKI
What? You were talking to him about
the constitution for Christssakes!

Mike sighs. He gets up and fetches a thermos of coffee.

MIKE
We've got a long way to go.
Ideology, Petrowski, is what you
put into a mans head. Information
is what you try to keep out of his

Petrowski is getting angry.

PETROWSKI
Okay Mike. You got it all figured
out. In the meantime we're being
spied.

MIKE
Don't get paranoid on me Petrowski.
Tell me the beginning. How old were
you when this happened?

But Petrowski isn't finished yet, he feels humiliated.

PETROWSKI
(pointing to the door)
Are these actually soundproof?

MIKE
Don't worry.

PETROWSKI
Okay, Mike. I'm, not worried. Some
Arab guy is able to just walk in
here with his cart which for all I
know carries a camera or a bomb and
nothing stands in his way.

MIKE
You're not a target. You're not a
priority. That's why we're in this
room. It's not secure.

PETROWSKI
I'm not what? I come to you with
information on...

Looks around him suspiciously

PETROWSKI (CONT'D)
I come to you with information and
I'm not a priority? For what should
I be a target?

MIKE
You're not.

PETROWSKI
Yeah I got that. But for what am I
not a target?

MIKE
Can we get back to the information?

PETROWSKI
Why? It's not a priority is it?

MIKE
It's pertinent.

Petrowski stares at Mike blankly. He suddenly laughs.

PETROWSKI
Yeah Mike. Okay Mike. Let's get
back to the info. I'm not worried.

MIKE
Okay then. How old were you when
this happened?

PETROWSKI
I was four.

MIKE
So this was...

PETROWSKI
Nineteen fifty two.

MIKE
So now you're here, sixty years
later, about to retire. And you
come to me with a story.

PETROWSKI
It's a true story.

MIKE
It's a strange story. But then
again, you are Russian. It'd be
strange if it wasn't... strange.

Petrowski grimaces.

PETROWSKI
(sarcastic)
How well you know us.

MIKE
So you were having breakfast with
the family, and a general came to

PETROWSKI
Yes.

MIKE
And your father didn't come back
for a year and a half.

PETROWSKI
That's right. And when he did he
was deformed. I mean mentally. They

MIKE
But he was able to pass on this
information to you.

PETROWSKI
Eventually. Years later.

MIKE
Why?

PETROWSKI
Why what?

MIKE
Why did he come forward?

PETROWSKI
I guess he'd been afraid.

MIKE
I don't know Petrowski. It's a
strange story.

Petrowski opens the door again and looks outside. The hallway
is empty. He closes it again. He turns to Mike.

PETROWSKI
I didn't tell you the whole story.

MIKE
(ironically)
You didn't?

Petrowski slowly sits down

PETROWSKI
The general who came to our house,
well that was not actually a
general.

MIKE
(irritated)
Right.

He looks at his watch.

PETROWSKI
He did however have a large
mustache.

MIKE
Facial hair, huh? In Russia of all
places. Impressive.

Petrowski looks at Mike, penetratingly, waiting.

MIKE (CONT'D)
Your story is finished? This is it?
A man with a mustache came to take

Petrowski shakes his head, almost without moving it. He keeps
staring at Mike intently. Mikes face suddenly shows an
expression.

MIKE (CONT'D)
A man with a mustache, huh.

RE: Help me fix this dialogue
I thought it flowed fairly well. The Russian jokes didn't work. Also, the intro was the hardest part to get. Once the guy with the food left, it was easier.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?
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05-13-2013, 03:22 PM Post: #3
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RE: Help me fix this dialogue
Does it make you want to read on?
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05-13-2013, 09:09 PM Post: #4
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RE: Help me fix this dialogue
I can imagine some of the dialogue having more properly English rythms, but it's nothing that couldn't be worked out easily on set with the actors.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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05-13-2013, 09:12 PM Post: #5
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RE: Help me fix this dialogue
Goddamn, man, I like this shit.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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05-14-2013, 01:46 AM Post: #6
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RE: Help me fix this dialogue
Really? Awesome.
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05-14-2013, 08:29 AM (This post was last modified: 05-14-2013 08:30 AM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #7
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RE: Help me fix this dialogue
Please point me to some stuff that isn't flowing Anglosaxonically.
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05-14-2013, 10:54 AM Post: #8
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RE: Help me fix this dialogue
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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05-18-2013, 08:37 AM (This post was last modified: 05-19-2013 11:08 AM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #9
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RE: Help me fix this dialogue
Yeah that wasn't very opaque. It's kind of a lapse-problem that I keep having.
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05-20-2013, 09:01 AM Post: #10
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RE: Help me fix this dialogue

JSS wrote:

Excellent realism.

The only tiny thing with the wording that disrupted my flow was Mike speaking in this manner;
"She's awful set in her ways
however so..."

Mike, being a "Mike", would more realistically speak thusly;
"She's awfully set in her ways
however so...

..unless he is supposed to be a hick.

But actually a great start.

My dad has this friend he called 'Jack'...."

..could be interesting.. Wink
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05-26-2013, 02:38 AM (This post was last modified: 05-26-2013 02:41 AM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #14
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RE: Help me fix this dialogue
That's a very good idea actually, very funny and 'narratable'. Jack would need a Russian name... Boris?
I would need some specifics of how a Jack could be built (or conceived) with the materials (or knowledge) available in the early computer-age, right after Von Neumann and Turing... in any case preferably before '53... is this possible at all?
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05-26-2013, 05:52 AM (This post was last modified: 05-26-2013 06:22 AM by JSS.) Post: #15
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RE: Help me fix this dialogue
(05-26-2013 02:38 AM)Fixed Cross Wrote:
That's a very good idea actually, very funny and 'narratable'. Jack would need a Russian name... Boris?
I would need some specifics of how a Jack could be built (or conceived) with the materials (or knowledge) available in the early computer-age, right after Von Neumann and Turing... in any case preferably before '53... is this possible at all?

Actually "Micheal" would be very fitting, pronounced "Mic-ah-eel". Realize that his dad's friend was an unusual character, not a native to the culture.

And that question leads to some very deep and interesting things. Jack could actually have been produced thousands of years ago, merely using people rather than a computer. And in fact, such an effort is what created all of the religions and political governing types.

The only relevant things that have changed in computers since '53 are;
1) size
2) memory
3) complexity
4) energy
5) expense

Each of those must be either compensated for or hidden for sake of the story line.

Size; perhaps a large basement.
Complexity; isn't an issue. His dad was a very complex person.
Energy; he had batteries that he recharged with lightening rods and wind generators.
Expense; perhaps he inherited money from a Czar remote relative.
Memory; this is the interesting part...

The only real difference between the digital world and the analog world involves memory. A digit is a quantized, anentropic bit of information. The universe is actually analog, not digital. But Man needs things to be quantized or objectized so as to be able to mentally work with them.

My theory back in the 70's was that the future of computers is actually analog but Man has to go through a long digital phase in order to figure out what he wanted to do with the analog universe. Analog computation is much faster and more precise. But information storage and handling in the analog world is seriously tough. You are living through a temporary technological phase that leads to RM. Classic physicists were on the right track, merely overcome by practical issues which led to digitizing, sizing, and financial issues which led to commercialism of technology. And eventually leads to the replacement of the homosapian and all of his cultures... his dad's dilemma (you really should watch the Terminator series and realize that it is more real than you think.. in motion pictures, "traveling into/out of the future" merely means "looking into the future and/or projecting backwards from the futures perspective").

Analog information is easily corrupted and nearly impossible to preserve except as either quantized bits, binary, "memory cells", or dynamic sequences, "bubble memory". A motion picture film is a combination of both of those, a sequence of quantized frames.

Jack is actually using the digital world to recreate an analog world, which makes it very slow. That first pic that I showed a few days ago was formed by displaying 3,000,000 objects. That is one reason that typical animators couldn't handle it. But in doing that, Jack had to tell each object when to add what value to which other object and in what proportion. In the analog world, such addition is very difficult to prevent from happening automatically and instantly.

So in a sense, some aspects would have been easier in '53 than now. And when a particle formed, it would be a physically real particle, not merely a metaparticle formed of digitized and summed values (although both are actually real). And then as such, its anentropic nature would also be automatic, thus not needing artificial memory nor the time it takes to analyze the thousands of objects within it that make it up. The problem would be storing the information and communicating the images without recreating it from scratch.

Back in the '53 era, to see electric fields, one would use a electroscopes and cathode ray tubes rather than a flatscreen. Seeing the effects is paramount to the project. I suspect that he would gain an interest in the motion picture industry simply for that purpose.

And realize that Jack doesn't use conventional computer methods... except when having to deal with conventional computers. Wink
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05-26-2013, 07:09 AM (This post was last modified: 05-26-2013 07:22 AM by JSS.) Post: #16
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RE: Help me fix this dialogue
Or if you really want to tap into the new age culture;
Petrowski thought that when his dad was talking about Michael being an alien from a different time, he thought that he was talking about a space alien. He later discovered (perhaps later revealed in the story) that he was merely referring to someone alien to humanity coming from a future perspective/paradigm/dimension... and the "he" wasn't exactly a "he" in the conventional sense.

And the magic involved would be that, although totally naive to the world of Man, if given the exactly properly reported situation, whatever Michael images coming from that situation is always exactly accurate down to the most minute detail... hence the "importance of the information" involved.
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05-26-2013, 07:38 AM Post: #17
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RE: Help me fix this dialogue
I will be back to give you some ruthless tips, I havent had the chance to sit down and concentrate on art. Hopefully I'll run into weed soon.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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05-29-2013, 09:01 AM (This post was last modified: 05-29-2013 09:03 AM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #18
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RE: Help me fix this dialogue
James, excellent input. Mikhail is actually not that un-Russian - Mikhail Gorbatchev.... It's a good name, the angelic association. I like the sound of it.

It would be very interesting to use some of the results you've had with Jack, maybe have these be the documents Petrowski has in his briefcase... Photogenetic images of whatever electrical process he had going. Then the mission could be to reconstruct these images with the information Petrowski can remember. It may be good to have Petrowski be quite simple, remembering things his dad taught him, but not in the right way, and a staff of the agency to try to decipher what was actually going on.

Perhaps Chruchev, who exposed the reality of Stalin, also put a stop to the program because it was 'too natural - to beast-like' or something. Considering here of course the 'taste' of a totalitarian organization - for them reality represents a beast. In this sense Jack, Mikhail, could be the object of desire for the audience. They want to 'learn what Michael is'.
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05-29-2013, 09:29 AM (This post was last modified: 05-29-2013 10:23 AM by JSS.) Post: #19
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RE: Help me fix this dialogue
Mikhail was an expert at behavioral science and all affects upon affects.
Once asked, Mikhail imagined the incontrovertible soon dissolution of the USSR.
..the rise of a global empire..
..and its inevitable fall..

And in order to work out the details, he had to get more information concerning the present condition. In that process, he had to explain a little of why he wanted to know. The word got to the State that he was spreading rumors of the USSR having a weakness... naughty, naughty heretic prophet.
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05-31-2013, 08:56 AM Post: #20
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RE: Help me fix this dialogue
Excellent.

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RE: Help me fix this dialogue
This would be cool f you reversed the dynamic at the end.

So Peteowski actually 'interviewing' the other dude by acting kind of cliche, but then he reveals later on that he is looking for a quality investigator.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping

http://filmschoolthrucommentaries.wordpress.com/

Lol I need a cap that big
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
- Thucydides

see it now?

Thunderbolt steers all things.
- Heraclitus

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### Re: New Moon Ashes

Reputation: 8

Out of what? 10?

Just out of curiosity, what criteria are used to establish this?

Also, are they more or less "ontological", or more or less rooted in "dasein"?

You know:

As for the notion of private property, let's not forget that Aristotle begot Ayn Rand. Indeed, perhaps someone should start a thread in which he or she imagines Aristotle reacting to Rand.

And not just the part about God.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296

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### Re: New Moon Ashes

I tend to find modern poetry disgusting, unoriginal, and empty. And not, well, poetry at all. But there are some rare exceptions, in whose art lyric and form are elevated to something more than mere prose, where meaning glides along the surfaces of the mind, "grooves in an aesthetic" to speak with someone I once knew.

Here is a rare example of good modern poetry. I encourage you to post other examples as you find them, and also to post examples of bad/typical modern poetry.

---

Evolution

Loss and ruin grind under our feet
like spilled salt, bad luck sticking
to our soles. And joy
streaks across the sky, a star
burning out. Who knows
what will save us?

A man yanks the hair
of a woman he once covered with kisses.
Each kiss was a blossom and he thought
he was making his own garden.
All over the world there is failure.

Our species can enter the human
body with a laser, repair the shape
of a cornea to sharpen all it sees,
or crack the ribs and lift the heart
from its home, plant it again.
This exquisite intelligence—a brain
firing one hundred billion neurons—
is still bashing its own skull with big rocks.

Everywhere, staggering
beauty, intricate and connected.
Rivers and streams flow under our skin.
We can see them through translucent cells.
And inside the modest and flamboyant organs of plants
a vegetal sex is taking place.
If you lie still in a soundproof room
you can hear the high tone
of your nervous system and the low
In caves the thinnest strands of stalactite extend
a centimeter in a hundred years, a single drop
of water hanging from each tip, returning
its burden of mineral to stone.
What kind of patience can we learn?

Goats chew the brilliantly
long green grass. Wind carries rain
across fields in dark transparencies.
The water sings in the gutters, the earliest song on earth.
Lovers keep breaking each other open
like soft fruit, trying to bury their souls
in each other's flesh.
As termites undo the material world,
taking apart the day, the universe
is expanding, so precisely held
in the web of tension, we can sleep
at the edge of an ocean.

O primitive brain, perhaps it's you
we should pray to, heaping our altars
with spliced DNA and the score to Bach's
Magnificat, Gandhi's dhoti, one hair
from Mother Teresa, and a cup of clean water.
We could bow through the long night,
prostrate, breathing in
and breathing out. Somewhere

in a barren desert, sand
blowing, burying the tents, grit
the skull of a being born
seven million years ago.

--Ellen Bass
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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05-27-2013, 06:59 AM (This post was last modified: 05-27-2013 07:00 AM by pezer.) Post: #2
pezer Offline
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RE: Modern Poetry
Beautiful. It suffered with the mention of Teresa, but survived.

All of Robert Frost. I like this one a lot.

Desert Places

Snow falling and night falling fast, oh, fast
In a field I looked into going past,
And the ground almost covered smooth in snow,
But a few weeds and stubble showing last.

The woods around it have it - it is theirs.
All animals are smothered in their lairs.
I am too absent-spirited to count;
The loneliness includes me unawares.

And lonely as it is, that loneliness
Will be more lonely ere it will be less -
A blanker whiteness of benighted snow
WIth no expression, nothing to express.

They cannot scare me with their empty spaces
Between stars - on stars where no human race is.
I have it in me so much nearer home
To scare myself with my own desert places.

Robert Frost
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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06-10-2013, 05:11 AM (This post was last modified: 06-10-2013 05:12 AM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #3
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RE: Modern Poetry
Dream Song 14

Life, friends, is boring. We must not say so.
After all, the sky flashes, the great sea yearns,
we ourselves flash and yearn,
and moreover my mother told me as a boy
(repeatingly) "Ever to confess you're bored
means you have no

Inner Resources." I conclude now I have no
inner resources, because I am heavy bored.
Peoples bore me,
literature bores me, especially great literature,
Henry bores me, with his plights & gripes

who loves people and valiant art, which bores me.
And the tranquil hills, & gin, look like a drag
and somehow a dog
has taken itself & its tail considerably away
into the mountains or sea or sky, leaving
behind: me, wag.

--John Berryman
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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06-18-2013, 03:53 PM Unread post Post: #4
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RE: Modern Poetry
Retreating Wind

When I made you, I loved you.
Now I pity you.

I gave you all you needed:
bed of earth, blanket of blue air--

As I get further away from you
I see you more clearly.
Your souls should have been immense by now,
not what they are,
small talking things--

blue of the spring morning,
time you didn't know how to use--
you wanted more, the one gift
reserved for another creation.

Whatever you hoped,
you will not find yourselves in the garden,
among the growing plants.
Your lives are not circular like theirs:

your lives are the bird's flight
which begins and ends in stillness--
which begins and ends, in form echoing
this arc from the white birch
to the apple tree.

Louise Gluck
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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06-18-2013, 05:34 PM Unread post Post: #5
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RE: Modern Poetry
Excellent

___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
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PostSubject: Re: Natural World Ashes Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:44 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
='ChainOfBeing' pid='414' dateline='1356197379'

Quote :
“I hold that the self is consciously active when it is interactive, and its interactivity is constituted in a dialectic of mutual negation and affirmation of self and other. Self and other, subject and object, are constituted in the individual acts of existential consciousness. These acts are self-originating and yet co-originating, too, as forms of dynamic, reciprocal expression. It is in this structure of biconditional, interexpressive, mutual revealment of self and other that an individual act is an individual act.”

...“[The biological world] exhibits this principle of self-expression; it reflects itself within itself. I articulate this difference [between the biological and the physical worlds] by defining the biological world as a self-transforming matrix moving from the formed to the forming, through the dynamic transactions of organism and environment. The organic realm constitutes a world that exists and moves through itself in this way. It is a process of infinite transformation through the dynamic equilibrium of organism and environment—that is, contains its own self-negation and self-affirmation within itself. This self-vectorial process constitutes the direction of time . . . The biological world thus has the form of a contradictory identity, possessing its own organic centers within itself and infinitely determining itself in and through these centers.”

Kitaro divorces the notions of space and time from each other, space being the dimension of immanence and extensivitiy, time being the dimension of transcendence and intensivitiy. Space being the realm of simultaneous existence, time being the realm of successive existence. The "physical" world is essentially the spatial world, while the biological world is the temporal world. Time is reversible in the physical world, while time is irreversible in the living, biological world.

The “absolute contradictory” identity of the self involves the contradiction between “the many and the one”. The self, attempting to reconcile its biological element with its physical element (its world and socio-history) is thrown into the contradiction between the many (the physical world of reversible time and distinct entities existing in space) and the one (the biological world of irreversible time and unique self-expressing entities existing in time). Human acts express themselves, the biological self-identity from which they arose, but they also express the world, and therefore through human consciousness the world exhibits “both a spatial and a temporal character”... “As an order of simultaneous existence it appears as a form of self-negation, and yet it is infinitely occurring in its temporality. Affirming itself in its temporality, it transcends its own spatial character by being a creative transformation.” The temporal unity of the biological being across time, from the perishing of one spatial moment to the next, gives this living being its creative-transformative character; even as it is always perishing, it is also always being reborn. And it is out of these "biological centers" vectoring together through time which the conscious self emerges as the self-expression of the operations of these centers and by their continuity in the world.

This leads into a perspective that is at basic not unlike Parodites’ daemonic consciousness:

Quote :

“In human consciousness the world is bottomlessly self-determining and creative, a transformational process which has the form of the contradictory identity of space and time. I refer to this self-forming, creative world as the self-determination of the absolute present. I hold that it is only in this dynamic form of contradictory identity that we can truly conceive something that moves by itself and is self-conscious.”

And as he continues, we can see how this also adopts and moves into a perspective along the lines of what value ontology proposes:

Quote :

“The dynamic reciprocity of objective and subjective dimensions comprising the act of humanly conscious expression is monadological in this existential sense. It is unintelligible as the mere action and reaction of physical objects (that is, grammatical subjects in the framework of theoretical judgment). It must be the expression of a self-determining and self-conscious act that simultaneously reflects the world as a unique perspective of the world. When I say that the conscious active individual exists in a structure of dynamic expression, I mean precisely this. That I am consciously active means that I determine myself by expressing the world in myself. I am an expressive monad of the world. I transform the world into my own subjectivity. The world that, in its objectivity, opposes me is transformed and grasped symbolically in the forms of my own subjectivity.”

We see how he arrives at what we have called self-valuing. He also situates this self-valuing within the larger “objective” world that in its physical dimension (its spatiality) both opposes and also conditions the valuing self. From the vantage of the world itself, human-like consciousness’ are created in order to give the world greater expression and depth, to (re-)interpret the world constantly in terms of a dimension which is foreign to the physical world itself, the dimension of the organic, of irreversible, unique and absolute time. The active consciousness expresses the world through itself while it is expressing itself through itself; the contradiction of the one and the many, subject and objects. Both the world and the self-consciousness take on a contradictory character: the world takes on the character of temporality, which is otherwise entirely foreign to it, while the self-consciousness takes on the form of spatiality, of simultaneous physical existence, which is foreign to the temporal condition of the self.

Kitaro grounds religious experience in the ideation of God, God being the principle by which these two contradictions can meet each other and thus may enter into productive relation. Human experience of the eternal is grounded in our understanding of death, of the inevitability of the total oblivion of form, which of course includes us, and in this insight the experience of eternal life is also born at the same moment as this is just the intimate and endless novelty of understanding and creativity, which has been named, among other things, philosophy.

Against Kant’s transcendental forms of the understanding, Kitaro maintains that “content without form is blind, form without content is empty” and he locates here a principle of conscious growth and over-growing progression toward higher forms and orders of experience. He grounds this, quite simply, in thinking. The “thinking subject” arises as a representation of the essential contradiction of the self, as that which “cannot become an object of itself”, the operation is indelibly linguistic, the production of semantics and grammar. The term "grammatical subject" is a tautology. The self makes objects of its experiences but it cannot make object of itself, it cannot self-grasp and self-identify because its objectification and identification are situated in a reciprocal biconditional relation that can never become resolved or grounded, but remain always an irresolute chaos. This irreconcilability, this juxtaposing into contrast of incommensurate elements of conscious experience, this is what we experience as "thinking". Kitaro's absolute time of the self-determining act is also an absolutely divided moment, a space which cannot be entirely transferred into the dimension of temporality, and a time which cannot entirely be translated into the dimension of spatiality. Kitaro therefore defines the thinking subject in the negative definition as that part of the active consciousness which is unable to be made object of by our (objectifying-semantic) consciousness itself.

And yet, despite this insight, this purely negative definition does not suffice for Kitaro, and he wishes to proceed with a positive designation, wherein he finds a principle of conscious expansion:

Quote :
“We can say that the self exists as the point where that which cannot become an object in one dimension becomes an object in another dimension—perhaps some higher dimension”.

This is indeed profound. Although he does not seem to draw the furthest implications from this, he locates a principle by which the self, trapped within its own impossibility for self-objectification and self-knowledge, is thrown at the junctures of this subjective interruption into alternate dimensions, from space to time, from time to space. From one purview within conscious expression to another, as the forms of this expression shift from one moment to the next. Where the conscious self meets an impassable wall it does not halt, some aspect of its experience always re-configures and escapes toward a new dimension of expression, is thrust into itself again endlessly as into a new avenue of its own self-expression. The negative condition of the self, its irreconcilable contradiction is also therefore understood to be also the condition of this progressive expansion of consciousness, its continual transformation into what which it presently is not. Transpositional logic is what Kitaro calls the logic of this contradictory consciousness existing as time within space, as space across time; objects within a subject, a subject as objects; and the thinking self which lies at the junction between the need for objectification and the threshold of impossibility of self-objectification. And of all this takes place within the temporal field of meaning of human world-history which gives rise to the possible forms in which our conscious acts ultimately take shape. The biological is always partially physical-spatial, but more so it is always noetic, teleological and dynamically reciprocal with its objects, cast outside of time... Kitaro again: "Self-conscious being pertains to noetic self-determination. Our conscious being has meaning in this framework. Each conscious act appears as a self-contradictory center of the noetic field of predicates. Reflection is nothing other than the self-reflection of the noetic field within itself. Our conscious acts are grounded in such a standpoint. That is the basis on which we are self-conscious and moral."

The wider "noetic field" being that out of which individual organic self-determining centers rise and take shape, are colored with character and meaning. The irreconcilability of this self-determining active consciousness takes place within a wider noetic-teleological stage of human world-historical meaning, and is in fact, according to Kitaro, nothing but a particular manifestation of this field at a given point within it:

Quote :

"It is in the historical world-time of the absolute present that the monads form the individual expressions of the world. They are both self-originating and co-originating in the matrix of the absolute present. Our own activities as microcosms of the world may be thought to constitute unique events in world-time while simultaneously representing the Ideas as the world's self-negation (that is, self-expression) in world-space. Our activities thereby acquire universality and value. Conversely, the Ideas, as the world's own expressions and values, entail a negation of negation: they are affirmative, actual, self-forming, and at the very least always have moral significance. That is why our activities in the historical world are always, and in various senses, both ideal and actual. The self-conscious world of each individual human self is a self-determining monadic world; but as such, each self is a self-expression of the historical world. Therefore each self-conscious world is a momentary vector of historical world-space, which mediates its own objective self-determination within itself, and infinitely determines itself through its own process of self-expression."

Kitaro succeeds as developing a rational understanding of the basic structure of consciousness and of the structure of this consciousness' mutually-conditioning relations to the world, both to the physical world of objects as well as to the human history-world of ideas, values and meaning.

And finally, further to the above:

"All life arises from the fact that it transforms itself by containing its own self-expression within itself. It is first biological and instinctive in a spatially-predominant way—that is, it possesses itself as a form of self-negation. It becomes historical life as it becomes concrete in a temporal dimension—as a self-affirming form within a transforming matrix. In historical life there is always this dialectic of affirmative and negative: the former is the material world, the latter the world of consciousness, in the transpositional structure of the contradictory identity of matter and form . . . I articulate the world of consciousness, which phenomenology defines in terms of intentionality, as the self-determination of the temporal dimension of the world, having this transformative structure of the identity of contradiction. Life-structures that contain the perspectives of the world within themselves, as structures of the world's own expression, may be regarded as instinctual in the predominantly spatial sense, but as conscious acts in their temporal character. Again, they are self-conscious structures in that they are co-originating expressions of the world . . . Reason itself is nothing other than a self-determination of the temporal dimension that always has the character of being a predicate that cannot be subject. We are rational in the self-determining predicate, or universal. Reason functions intentionally, as something temporally, consciously, and immanently enfolding the grammatical subject—that is, the object—and as having its own self-immanent telos."

___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
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PostSubject: Re: Natural World Ashes Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:46 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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Life is always wanting only itself, and finding itself it must cultivate some external agency by which to abandon itself, to again lose sight of itself that it may stimulate continuously its own striving nature in the flesh of some excess. The world is made so that we may never truly rest, and even to search for truth culminates in a seeking into falsity just as all desiring after a fictive experience is only an inarticulate and misplaced desire for truth.

Love is the unity of instinct with a sentimental heart, which may almost entirely exclude the understanding. That we love is the movement toward completion of the axis of the heart’s responsiveness, that point at which feeling subtends with the body under the wider arc of rational reflection, and the enlivening of that point of intersection with a vital energy and passion such as excites the body primarily into activity. Those relations characteristic of a quality of personality are subsumed within relations of the heart, just as those of the heart become reconstituted and find their point of adequate reflection in moments of understanding, of abstract intellect. That which love lacks is made up in the mind just as what is lacking of reason acts as so much fuel and a stimulus toward the unity of the body unconscious within the centralizing locus of the heart’s expression, which movement acts to usurp reason and to place the rational object carefully within the reflective milieu of so many confluent gatherings of sensate affection. What man lacks is yet a technique for casting the contents of his experience into the depth of their unifying reconciliation within each other, that a more disparate and agitating feeling might emerge as the first signs of a new conscious order of contemplation, compared to which our habitual thinking and feeling is but a relaying wind, too proud to realize a greater capriciousness and too vain to possess also the solitude for a moment of more truthful experience.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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01-26-2013, 10:08 PM Post: #2
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RE: Shadows of an active ethics.
Indeed, as man is a furnace, he must still learn to cast himself into this furnace. As man contains an abyss between his mind and heart, he must still navigate this abyss and make it his own. To lose oneself in oneself - I believe that depression is often no more than this, the beginnings of a path that has the power to deepen the soul. This prospect of depth is itself already terrifying and unwanted. Such a path is called the dark night of the soul, and when one is thrown onto it by the simple inadequacy of the only half conscious human state to attain the values the organism (health) wants to reach for, there is no guarantee of ever finding the path as a path. Part of the task of a philosophy of the future is to offer a lantern on this path, for the fallen one to recognize it as a path. What is philosophy but a path? This is why I have been so adamant on creating beacons, signals, symbols - not of what we aim for, but of what we have done, and what those who are still wandering in the dark of the abyss may discover in themselves.
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01-29-2013, 05:07 PM Post: #3
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RE: Shadows of an active ethics.
To accept chaos as a part of us in lieu of an external threat, that is to accept the inevitable limits of our truths with a smile. We dance, and chaos is part of the dance, and within that we discern.

Discerning is an art, and it is involved in warfare. The dark night is not of the philosopher but of the world, and the philosopher often prefers darkness to certain lights. The fearlessness of it adds to his strength and maintains his boldness, as well as his discernment for good light. In any case, darkness is not the same as emptiness; there is a reason we use light.

Ethics, after all, active or otherwise, is itself a shadow.

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The real enemy
The real enemy is chaos. There is no other enemy.

Every problem is a manifestation and a particular mode of chaos. To perceive and understand the chaos within one's problem is to see into the nature of that difficulty, and so become free (able) to will something else, something counter. We are slaves to that which we do not think we can control, or to that which we are too afraid to reconstitute into some new order for fear that we might in so doing change the nature of what we value into something alien to us, that we would lose this value.

Sometimes this fear is justified, sometimes it is not. Knowing the difference is the essence of true morality, which is yet scarcely born unto human wisdom. At best, we cultivate some moral intuition, namely an ability to withdraw ourselves instinctively at the precipice of this fearful moment. Such a mode however noble leads to a passive morality even where our moral sense manifests itself in activity. So end tragically all things.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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03-08-2013, 02:07 PM (This post was last modified: 03-08-2013 02:08 PM by JSS.) Post: #2
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RE: The real enemy
I refer to "the enemy" as "Entropy", the son of Chaos, but it is the same difference.
Anentropy is the goal.
The key is to stop worshiping the enemy as unbeatable.
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03-08-2013, 02:49 PM Post: #3
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RE: The real enemy
Where does the "else" come from? the counter?
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03-08-2013, 11:54 PM (This post was last modified: 03-09-2013 12:03 AM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #4
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RE: The real enemy
(03-08-2013 02:07 PM)JSS Wrote:
I refer to "the enemy" as "Entropy", the son of Chaos, but it is the same difference.
Anentropy is the goal.
The key is to stop worshiping the enemy as unbeatable.

Indeed. To worship the enemy means to value oneself in terms of the enemy (to hold the emeny as a standard for the real) - which means to value oneself negatively, as weakness. There is no way up from that position.
(03-08-2013 02:49 PM)pezer Wrote:
Where does the "else" come from? the counter?

It emerges naturally once the obstacle is removed, once the chaos is perceived for what it is in terms of the self. It is, as is every act, an extension of the continuing self-valuing, the appropriating of the world in terms of the subjective consistency.

Chaos can be called a-subjective, inconsistency - being not-in-terms.
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03-09-2013, 01:03 AM (This post was last modified: 03-09-2013 01:06 AM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #5
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RE: The real enemy
(03-08-2013 02:49 PM)pezer Wrote:
Where does the "else" come from? the counter?

I believe this comes from what has been called human freedom or free will, namely the degree of our ability to act without regard to something that would otherwise have compelled our activity by some force or necessity. To (re)condition one necessity in terms of a different, "higher" or more subtle/organic-teleological necessity is the real meaning of freedom/free will. Freedom and determinacy are the same thing.

So when we cultivate an accumulated memory able to act as that against which we now express our own subjective self-valuing activity, producing counter-forces and a continuous sense of (memory) that which is resisted/reincorporated, we gain some measure of freedom. Freedom is a measure of strength. And of course the nature of this strength is in a resistance to chaos, meaning an understanding of chaotic tendency and subsequently an ability to generate and impress a less-chaotic alternative.

What also makes this hard is that to overpower chaos does not defeat or remove it, but makes some new use of it; the chaotic tendency is still present, systemically or structurally as a potentiality. But we can learn to see destructive chaos as a worthy enemy in the sense that without it there could be no impulse or incentive to form an ordering against it. Activity is reaction, freedom is resistance, the necessity of chaos is the necessity for order.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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03-09-2013, 03:02 AM (This post was last modified: 03-09-2013 03:02 AM by pezer.) Post: #6
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RE: The real enemy
OK, but if there is nothing but chaos and the resistance to it...
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03-09-2013, 03:04 AM (This post was last modified: 03-09-2013 03:04 AM by JSS.) Post: #7
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RE: The real enemy
Make the right kind of friends.
..those that help.
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03-09-2013, 03:12 AM Post: #8
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RE: The real enemy
No, I think I agree with the whole thesis. Chaos is like mistakes: absolutely necessary, often painful, sometimes great. In any case, we dance with it (and we must).
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03-09-2013, 03:27 AM (This post was last modified: 03-09-2013 03:28 AM by JSS.) Post: #9
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RE: The real enemy
So be it and where it takes you.
Sleep with the enemy and the enemy is always with you.
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03-09-2013, 03:31 AM (This post was last modified: 03-09-2013 03:47 AM by pezer.) Post: #10
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RE: The real enemy

Lol. Seriously though, if you're not fighting your enemies: who is?

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Split
Politics does not split man against man so much as it splits man inwardly, against himself. Political (or religious/ideological) beliefs are largely irrelevant to the non-philosopher, since the belief serves only as the justice for the feeling. It is the feeling which counts, and which is manipulated by politic.

The splitting into two 'halves', largely perfectly opposed to one another, we see this phenomenon everywhere in nature, because it is the essential feature of all things that they would divide inwardly to cast into some higher order of expression a bifurcated nature of action, the growth of something "new", the functionalization of "the old".

Each side retains its truth and its true relation to its opposite/s. This is typically "repressed" (buried) by the splitting-nature itself, by the Act. It is action which continuously suppresses the reality of things, whose more true expression might begin to move subtly in the waters of experience were we to take a step back and clear a path for it, namely to suppress out acting for even a moment, to create a space. It is from within voids that the implicit must express itself, in so far as the implicit is as its term suggests, integrated into a seeming homogeneity, a "necessity".

...Men are made to despise themselves because they are to despise other men, for right or wrong, and feeling is intersected and cut in two at the heart of immediate experience; a truthful nature is broken and made to war against itself, whose justification is the outward expressions of so many beliefs and "pragmatisms" in the world. (And we forget this is the world that we have made).
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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03-11-2013, 06:54 AM (This post was last modified: 03-11-2013 07:04 AM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #2
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RE: Split
I recognize much in this. And the only politics that justify the nature of man to himself must be what we now only know as art. What we (man) in fact have known in those mighty periods on which all our culture is based - the Greeks (I am thinking Historyboy deserves much involvement) and to a lesser degree that Renaissance. China has known such politics as well. Wherever there is history, there has been art as politics. Whenever mediocre artists were at work with such an aim, they have caused historic, monumental, "epic" failures.

We are helpless if we do not rise to the 'heat' required for synthesis - ethics born of sublime aesthetics, of rapture caught in form. But we are doomed if the parts come to the melting point and are not prepared to be synthesized.

I suppose that all politicians who rise to power are attempts at making their quest to power into an artwork - their self-glorification in the name of the aesthetics of a race, a people. It suggests that we must find the aesthetics of our "human race" - if we are to advance beyond the schizofrenic battle against our neighbor, our counterpart. Naturally this synthesis means a nature beyond the man of the present hour, the lukewarm soup of half dissolved yet unpleasantly conflicting ingredients.

Paradoxically, to create a fitting image of "mankind" literally to literally create the Übermensch.

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PostSubject: Re: Natural World Ashes Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:46 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Every world is made, each human creates what is possible for him, and what is possible will give his ranges of realities. Despite the great accumulation of past influences we are always a "blank state" in so far as we write our own possibilities. This is usually passive, but may become active in the ways in which our instincts attune to our attributions of what we perceive as risks and possibilities. It is based within information, but based upon the relationships between instinctively governed feelings and this information. A mature heart will always carry one to the threshold no matter what information or quality of possibility are available.

What we think cannot come to be is what we call to, by visualizing it, anticipating is defense and a bringing-forth. So far defense against the unwanted aspect has been the merely passive method for our constructing realities. Desire has two sides, but one result.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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03-19-2013, 12:23 PM (This post was last modified: 03-19-2013 12:27 PM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #2
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RE: How healthful is your reality?
(03-19-2013 03:43 AM)ChainOfBeing Wrote:
What we think cannot come to be is what we call to, by visualizing it, anticipating is defense and a bringing-forth. So far defense against the unwanted aspect has been the merely passive method for our constructing realities. Desire has two sides, but one result.

Brilliant. This explains why living on the edge requires a heavy denial, - as if the denial is the positive stament (I am thinking of Jim Morrison, or Nietzsche - James Dean, Jack Kerouac - Charlie Sheen even in the more vulgar sense) and the positive being is the one that denies. This being creates momentum by its conscious effort to conjure an anti-self, a 'world', which stimulates to action and identity.

What it denies is separating heaven and earth, a horizon drawn as a line in the sand.

Every act is such a horizon, an 'underworld' is created out of it as well as a 'heaven' - collaterality versus telos... the greatest acts perform teleologically within the unintended disruption they cause - in the least intended forms, intention finds its freedom and is able to become real to the world, "power" is awesome to itself, 'self-evident' but not immutably real. There is a path that leads away from it, the path of restriction in trust.

Mistrust is necessary for growth - uncertainty, - trust in danger, readiness to manipulate at the cost of a foreign self-valuing. All great movements are 'racist' - typist - and then they fall into service of a sustenance providing structure and begin to corrupt.

Every great religion is an attempt to keep the structure out of the picture and to keep moving, being-movement. Structure is the circumference of expediency, and expediency is determined exclusively in terms of value and perspective.

Value-structures, the plasma of the real, valency as "God", manifesting in art, mind altering drugs, non-teleological sex - "irrational behavior" - - meaning. A rational argument can mean something, but it can not be meant in the way a subjective statement can. It is always "This is the case if you think about it" instead of "Now this is happening". Between these meanings weaponry is created.

What do men battle when they war? This egde that life is requires of life that it pits itself against itself. In man life reaches the pinnacle of diversity and allows itself to cultivate itself, from pure diversity into a duality - good and evil, life and death, ethics and barbarism. Life uses man to sharpen itself. Man can not understand what he is being used for, except if he stands as life on the precipice and directs the conflict. All art is attempt to this, Napoleon is more overt expression, so also is the militaristic Jihad, and radical Christianity. Judaism attempts not to be life at the edge, but to surf this edge, the be above the tendency of life to pit itself against itself. The religion offers the tree of life, the means to overcome the duality (the tree of knowledge of good and evil) by recognizing its non-dual construction.
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03-20-2013, 02:10 AM (This post was last modified: 03-20-2013 02:16 AM by pezer.) Post: #3
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RE: How healthful is your reality?
Considering the long while man has actually already been around for, we may even consider that the valuation of man as the pinnacle, the edge, the avant-garde of the universe was a manly creation itself, perhaps in that sense that only philosophers understand as creation, an evolutionary creation from within; the fate that is may have been an event that is.

We are the pinnacle because we are the pinnacle.
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03-20-2013, 07:58 AM Post: #4
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RE: How healthful is your reality?
Welcome to the lodge.

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PostSubject: Re: Natural World Ashes Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:48 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Black Mirror
A short mini-series from a UK film-maker.

It is rare to see such raw objectivity, such a direct and unmitigated look at ourselves...

Episode 1
https://www.dropbox.com/s/gxfjxp9q6d42ev...-bia.mkv?m

Episode 2
https://www.dropbox.com/s/xf7q0jqmig8nqt...-tla.mkv?m

Episode 3
https://www.dropbox.com/s/bdi4a9uvww48x8...-tla.mkv?m

If you can't get these to play, download Media Player Classic Home Cinema Edition
and they should work, http://mpc-hc.org.

(I don't know how long these episodes will be up hosted on this site, BTW).
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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03-11-2013, 03:35 PM (This post was last modified: 03-11-2013 04:05 PM by JSS.) Post: #2
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RE: Black Mirror
Seems like typical social engineering psycho-filmage to me.
The "raw objectivity" aspect is to open your will to the embedded suggestions.
They usually use violence, sex, anything heart wrenching or terrifying in order to open the door.
But anything that strongly gets your attention works.

It is an example of your values being set by others without your knowledge.
It has been going on under your nose for the last 35 years or so.

1) Pathetic white male who can't protect his women.
2) Black male fucks his women
3) Futile life of the white man
and if they run more...
4) Angry superwoman frees herself from oppression of the white men
5) Gay white men.
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
- Thucydides

see it now?

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- Heraclitus

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### Re: New Moon Ashes

Sometimes they'll throw in a gratuitous "suicide is a valid option for white men".
The underlying point being to genocidally exterminate the white race over time.
It's straight out of Deuteronomy.
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03-11-2013, 11:35 PM Post: #3
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RE: Black Mirror
Um...
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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03-12-2013, 08:19 PM Post: #4
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RE: Black Mirror
But the production quality is great.
Those guys have a whole lot of money.
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03-13-2013, 09:05 AM Post: #5
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RE: Black Mirror
(03-11-2013 03:35 PM)JSS Wrote:
Seems like typical social engineering psycho-filmage to me.
The "raw objectivity" aspect is to open your will to the embedded suggestions.
They usually use violence, sex, anything heart wrenching or terrifying in order to open the door.
But anything that strongly gets your attention works.

It is an example of your values being set by others without your knowledge.
It has been going on under your nose for the last 35 years or so.

1) Pathetic white male who can't protect his women.
2) Black male fucks his women
3) Futile life of the white man
and if they run more...
4) Angry superwoman frees herself from oppression of the white men
5) Gay white men.

Sometimes they'll throw in a gratuitous "suicide is a valid option for white men".
The underlying point being to genocidally exterminate the white race over time.
It's straight out of Deuteronomy.

The Androgyny Project.

There are, though, sometimes those movies starring Liam Niason where it's just a white dude being awesome against all odds. But yeah, it's more than just exterminating the white race; it's just that they are first. They want to extinguish the race itself, including the sexes. Wells knew this way back when.
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03-13-2013, 05:37 PM Post: #6
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RE: Black Mirror
Where is the rest? There is only the first part for each episode.
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03-13-2013, 05:38 PM Post: #7
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RE: Black Mirror
Oh, this is from Charlie Brooker. Interesting.
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03-13-2013, 08:34 PM Post: #8
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RE: Black Mirror
Self-destructive pessimism masquerading as 'a cold hard look at ourselves' is Brooker's speciality. He's a miserable, horrible man. And I know someone who went out with him for a bit before he married that dippy Asian children's TV presenter, so I know he's actually like this.
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03-13-2013, 09:38 PM (This post was last modified: 03-13-2013 09:44 PM by Q.) Post: #9
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RE: Black Mirror
I find these films powerful, though. I should have watched them first before commenting on the androgyny stuff cause I don't see it here beyond just the ambient level it exist in society. Definitely some transhumanist imagery. As for Booker,

He kind of reminds me of this guy. Not so much in terms of character, but just being in that media position to be flirting with dangerous ideas. I forget what it was in V. In this case it is the PM fucking a pig.

Also, the only way I could watch these videos was by torrenting them.
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03-13-2013, 11:56 PM Post: #10
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RE: Black Mirror
I don't know why the videos here cut out part way through. I couldn't find them anywhere else online.

As for " pessimism" I see these videos as instead exposing latent or implicit aspects of our daily lives, and of society. The "fears" of the material presented reflect us and how we ourselves are reflected by this imagery. It isn't dystopian so much as a dream-like evocation, largely isolated imagery that should appear alien in how differently things are in the dream compared to our 'normal' lives, but really does not. Basically features of each of these stories are already present in our lives today, the film maker merely reflects on this by drawing them out to "extremes".

I don't know anything about the film maker himself, but it seems at least unfair or perhaps irrelevant to form comments about his work from within a context of criticizing the man's supposed personal life and affairs. Artists are often difficult people to get along with and can leave a sour impression on others, in person. This says little or nothing about their work, however.

RE: Black Mirror
You might not believe it, but my friend from a film school I dropped out of oh, a year or more ago had been discussing making a video of... Jean-Charest, the then Prime Minister of Quebec, fucking a sheep.

It was a trip to see how these guys did it, the idea is obviously fantastic for anyone with a sense of humor and healthy hate for politicians. Shitty soap-opery angles are unavoidable on fiction TV of that scale if you're not a Stanley Kubrick, but the set up was great, somehow a slight bit disappointing until the coup-de-gras, when all is justified and the work proves itself as even evil, for having stolen that idea from a guy who might actually have done it.

Started watching part 2, but was too high for that level of bad trip. The guy is honest and meticulous, there is no doubt about that.
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03-14-2013, 04:07 AM Post: #12
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RE: Black Mirror
(03-13-2013 11:56 PM)ChainOfBeing Wrote:
I don't know anything about the film maker himself, but it seems at least unfair or perhaps irrelevant to form comments about his work from within a context of criticizing the man's supposed personal life and affairs. Artists are often difficult people to get along with and can leave a sour impression on others, in person. This says little or nothing about their work, however.

I mean he is a pessimist in his work, as well as in his personal life. I've followed this guy's stuff for years, I used to quite enjoy his weekly TV previews in the Guardian and I admit there is a lot in the series he did with Chris Morris 'Nathan Barley' that I liked and thought was very clever and well observed. He also wrote some sketches for a show that 'took a sideways look at relationships' in which all the men are assholes and all the women were crazy. Funny, but it's the subtext of pure misanthropy flowing from this man that makes it hard for me to watch or read his stuff anymore.

Beyond that I don't really have anything to contribute to this thread so I'll leave it at that.
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03-14-2013, 07:42 AM Post: #13
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RE: Black Mirror
These films have me fairly impressed. The little artistic nuances are too many to even list. I think the one with the black guy is my favorite but the pig fucking one, not even being British, really got to me.
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03-15-2013, 09:18 AM Post: #14
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RE: Black Mirror
So there is some sort of top level global ban on these videos. I made a small clip of one of them and clearly stated it was made in accordance with Fair Use, and it was banned almost instantly. I didn't even link it to anywhere. It had like 1 view.

Someone - I would imagine the Queen, English government, etc - seriously does not want these videos being watched.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?
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03-15-2013, 09:18 AM Post: #15
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RE: Black Mirror
(03-15-2013 09:18 AM)Q Wrote:
So there is some sort of top level global ban on these videos. I made a small clip of one of them and clearly stated it was made in accordance with Fair Use, and it was banned almost instantly. I didn't even link it to anywhere. It had like 1 view.

Someone - I would imagine the Queen, English government, etc - seriously does not want these videos being watched.

The only way I could even watch them in the first place was to torrent them. They're banned on every site, everywhere.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?
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03-15-2013, 09:21 AM Post: #16
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RE: Black Mirror
They all get really, really good after the parts they cut off in the OP.

You guys should try and watch them.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?
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03-15-2013, 12:12 PM Post: #17
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RE: Black Mirror
cut off where now?
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03-15-2013, 12:19 PM Post: #18
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RE: Black Mirror
There are 4 parts to each video. The OP only shows the first 1-2 parts. They get really good. All of them.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?
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03-15-2013, 12:25 PM Post: #19
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RE: Black Mirror
Oh... So the pig fucking one goes on? Man... It's gonna take me like 2 weeks to find the emotional space to watch these bad boys.
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03-15-2013, 12:53 PM Post: #20
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RE: Black Mirror
Are you sure there is some kind of ban on these? Weren't they aired on TV in the UK, and they must be available on DVD too...?
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.

RE: Black Mirror
(03-15-2013 12:25 PM)pezer Wrote:
Oh... So the pig fucking one goes on? Man... It's gonna take me like 2 weeks to find the emotional space to watch these bad boys.

I'm still reeling kind of.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?
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03-15-2013, 01:51 PM Post: #22
Q Offline
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RE: Black Mirror
(03-15-2013 12:53 PM)ChainOfBeing Wrote:
Are you sure there is some kind of ban on these? Weren't they aired on TV in the UK, and they must be available on DVD too...?

There is a ban outside of the UK I mean.
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How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?
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03-15-2013, 08:48 PM Post: #23
Q Offline
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RE: Black Mirror
The second one goes so far beyond the others for me. I have watched it a bunch of times now. It's completely self-contained. Brilliant.
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03-15-2013, 08:49 PM Post: #24
Q Offline
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RE: Black Mirror
You guys need to watch these things in their entirety. I can give you the torrent links if you cannot find them.
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03-15-2013, 11:22 PM Post: #25
ChainOfBeing Offline
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RE: Black Mirror
Apparently with the links I posted in the OP you need to click on Download to see the entire clip, if you just watch it from the site it will cut off part way through.

I'll post links to season 2 soon.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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03-21-2013, 09:25 AM Post: #26
Bill Wiltrack Offline
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RE: Black Mirror
.[quote='Bill Wiltrack' pid='1727' dateline='1363821936']
.

[size=large]
Tell me again...what's so great about white people?[/size]

...........................................

.
[/quote]

BigTom Offline
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RE: Black Mirror
(03-15-2013 01:51 PM)Q Wrote:
(03-15-2013 12:53 PM)ChainOfBeing Wrote:
Are you sure there is some kind of ban on these? Weren't they aired on TV in the UK, and they must be available on DVD too...?

There is a ban outside of the UK I mean.

http://www.filestube.com/query.html?q=bl...select=All

There's no ban, this isn't remotely controversial stuff. Chris Morris was doing this kind of thing with Jam about a decade ago...
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03-21-2013, 10:16 PM Post: #28
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RE: Black Mirror
Hmm. Well then.
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03-21-2013, 10:33 PM Post: #29
Q Offline
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RE: Black Mirror
But the black vans outside watching me, maaaan. This thing goes all the way to the top!
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03-22-2013, 12:27 AM Post: #30
BigTom Offline
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RE: Black Mirror
Don't get me wrong, the black vans outside may well be watching you, and may well be under orders from 'the top'. I'm just saying there's no attempt to ban this TV show. It being comparatively harder to find than many TV shows is probably due to it not having that big an audience.

RE: Black Mirror
Banning has become a strange word in the anglo world. I'm definitely quite ready to believe that the broadcasters simply censored some parts, for example. True censorship can't be direct or else it would eventually be acknowledged by some dope, no?
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03-22-2013, 04:39 AM Post: #32
BigTom Offline
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RE: Black Mirror
In this country censorship is a very informal, if quite careful, process. There's nothing in the broadcast version that will make anyone who is that powerful that unhappy. I appreciate that things work differently in other countries, but here it seems they give a relatively free license to media producers as long as they stay within certain boundaries, or perhaps more specifically as long as you adopt the right tone towards your material. If you say it in a cynical way that offers the public no options then you can say pretty much whatever you like.
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03-22-2013, 04:44 AM (This post was last modified: 03-22-2013 04:45 AM by pezer.) Post: #33
pezer Offline
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RE: Black Mirror
I mean more the word than the country. Y'all sometimes say banned when the government had nothing to do with it. Maybe It's an American thing.

There are certain cynical tones you can take in public which try to pass off as but certainly don't allow you to say whatever you want; there is an allocated space in ideology for permitted rule breaking.
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03-22-2013, 03:49 PM Post: #34
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RE: Black Mirror
Perhaps I haven't been exposed to the crazy stuff, but the pig fucking one, for me, was crazy. I was thinking about it for a long time. It's not so much 'Oh, that was shocking, a guy fucking a pig.'

It was something else.

Likewise, the way the memory implant one makes you look at the future is fucking horrifying. That is precisely where we are going.

Where will you draw the line? And then what happens? It's the subtle stuff that gets to me. I kinda look Booker. He knows what he is. It's not some saint, but these videos are such that they are powerful. I think, at least.

Tell me some of the videos you have found truly shocking. Dramas, that is. I'm sure you've seen some crazy spy torture or the like. Or maybe not. I shouldn't presume that.

(03-21-2013 07:42 PM)BigTom Wrote:
(03-15-2013 01:51 PM)Q Wrote:
(03-15-2013 12:53 PM)ChainOfBeing Wrote:
Are you sure there is some kind of ban on these? Weren't they aired on TV in the UK, and they must be available on DVD too...?

There is a ban outside of the UK I mean.

http://www.filestube.com/query.html?q=bl...select=All

There's no ban, this isn't remotely controversial stuff. Chris Morris was doing this kind of thing with Jam about a decade ago...
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03-22-2013, 03:49 PM Post: #35
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RE: Black Mirror
Season 2 tonight.
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03-22-2013, 03:52 PM Post: #36
pezer Offline
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RE: Black Mirror
Well, have you checked out Salo yet?
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03-22-2013, 03:58 PM Post: #37
pezer Offline
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RE: Black Mirror
Or, if you want to know why Venezuela is scary in a really fun story, in a filming style which is very true to life, definitely watch Secuestro Express

Fuck your hard drive space, you can erase it after. You can tell it's a quality movie because none of the actors are actually Venezuelan except the gangsters, who aren't strictly speaking actors. Real professional piece. It'd make Riddley Scott smile.
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03-22-2013, 03:59 PM Post: #38
pezer Offline
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RE: Black Mirror
My god man, that question is huge.
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03-22-2013, 03:59 PM Post: #39
Q Offline
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RE: Black Mirror
No. What are your impressions on it?
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03-22-2013, 04:00 PM Post: #40
pezer Offline
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RE: Black Mirror
How deep have you delved into Japanese cinema?

RE: Black Mirror
Worth every traumatizing second, and a bit of a letdown in the way you might expect, though less than you might expect.
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03-22-2013, 04:01 PM Post: #42
pezer Offline
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RE: Black Mirror
It's everything Saw never was.
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03-22-2013, 04:04 PM Post: #43
Q Offline
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RE: Black Mirror
Quote:
Because of its scenes depicting intensely graphic violence, sadism and sexual depravity, the film was extremely controversial upon its release, and remains banned in several countries. The film is currently banned outright in Malaysia due to "repulsive, outrageous and abhorrent content" (extremely high impact violence, offensive depictions of cruelty and other content that is repelling and abhorrent). The film was then banned in Singapore due to its "extreme content that may cause controversy in Singapore". The film is banned outright in several other countries as well, including Sri Lanka, Iran, United Arab Emirates and Vietnam.
The film focuses on four wealthy, corrupted fascist libertines after the fall of Benito Mussolini's Italy in July 1943. The libertines kidnap eighteen teenage boys and girls and subject them to four months of extreme violence, sadism, and sexual and mental torture. The film is noted for exploring the themes of political corruption, abuse of power, sadism, perversion, sexuality and fascism.

See this is kind of different. I mean, yes, if I watched this movie I'm sure it would stay with me, but there are movies that attempt to (and maybe this one doesn't) be violent, and jarring, and usually there is a lot of it in the film. But it's one of those things where... for instance, Hostile still stays with me. It was shitty, but it just showed me images that I will never forget. There has to be a payoff.

But then there are films that disturb you with how closely it resembles the world that you are used to. Not some bloodbath inferno that likely wouldn't happen to you. But the world that you feel comfortable in.
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03-22-2013, 04:05 PM Post: #44
Q Offline
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RE: Black Mirror
Quote:
Worth every traumatizing second,

Quote:
What Saw never was.

I'll consider it. I'm kind of sensitive when it comes to violence, though.
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03-22-2013, 04:28 PM Post: #45
pezer Offline
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RE: Black Mirror
You're gonna hurt. There's no doubt about it. As a faithful product of the Marquis de Sades, it is a masochistic venture. That's why it actually is shocking. You may not notice, but those crappy, ineffective gore scenes are usually filmed and edited precisely to allow you that distance. Here, you can get exactly as close as you please. These men like guests.

The Secuestro Express one gets right into life. It shows you how you're in your happy, white world and suddenly all the underbelly of the city... It stays with you somehow. But I'm gonna watch that movie you mentioned, once I know the variant of "stays with you" it elicits, I may be able to recommend better things.

I just watched Arbitrage today with Richard Gere. It's the typical Richard Gere movie, but this one, as you say, kind of stuck with me.
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03-22-2013, 04:30 PM Post: #46
pezer Offline
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RE: Black Mirror
I'm gonna go calm down. Once I can do that I'll be able to focus and pick movies. There's just such a wide range..
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03-22-2013, 04:31 PM Post: #47
pezer Offline
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RE: Black Mirror
You watch Brazil yet?
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03-22-2013, 04:35 PM Post: #48
pezer Offline
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RE: Black Mirror
My God, I know what you need.
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03-22-2013, 04:37 PM Post: #49
pezer Offline
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RE: Black Mirror
Michael Haeneke.

Pick any one.I'm out for now.
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03-22-2013, 04:47 PM Post: #50
Q Offline
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RE: Black Mirror
The concept of not using a score at all is interesting with regards to Haneke.

You are reminding me of this one movie that I never saw but seemed interesting: It involves these people that kidnap some homeless people or something and they are torturing them because there is (apparently) some sort of powerful truth that can be learned when one stands on the precipice of pain and insanity. If you can make it back, you get this secret.

Anyways I won't tell you how it ends if you haven't seen it yet. If anyone else is reading and knows of this movie let me know because I want to learn the name of it again.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?

RE: Black Mirror
I feel like films are banned because of one of two reasons:

1. They are subversive to society. IE: They're violent and crazy
2. They're subversive to the system. IE: They give you an insight into how the system really works.

Some can do both.

Film is so powerful. If clips of this show are allowed onto Youtube, it can do real damage. A lot of the time I picture myself on their side. "OK, if [this] thing took root, how much damage could it really do? All these laws are just fronts so that certain interests can do what they want.

People like Booker represent the faction of people that have realized that money trumps even their control sometimes. If you can put together a series that will make money, someone will air it somewhere. I don't even watch any British TV to know that '4' is probably not the most mainstream of the mainstream cable channels because Black Mirror is basically a series of films that tries to address the big power delusions:

1x1 - Democracy and The Crown's co-existence
1x2 - The celebrity/success sellout paradox
1x3 - Blindly just doing transhumanism

2x1 - Transhumanism again
2x2 - The voyeuristic society/how public execution is planned
2x3 - More British (Democracy) Stuff

Basically, what I'm just saying that there is obviously a priority on controlling who watches Category B.

What do you guys think?

There is another conceivable level where so long as these ideas are introduced in a controlled way, then money is put into the shows that, when they are watched, they want to have an affect. So Watt would say that they are using Booker (or he knows) to push out stuff that has to filter up from the grassroots level. I would imagine that is one of the core components to The Revelation of the Method.

In effect, you use people like me to get into conversations talking about how the show with all the cool technology is bad. Ultimately to most people, over time, it's just noise about transhumanism, acclimatising them to the idea.

Looking at the fact that Booker wrote all of these, and some of them play like he is writing while looking over some 'this -is- coming'-type documents. So his interest in taking this show might have been to take on the media and fulfill some agenda, but at least one of the episodes per series is flooded - fucking flooded - with technology stuff, that he was told if he wanted the money, had to be there. The only way he would get the idea and the ability to display this on screen would be if he was approached by some of these interests. Or that is how it seems. Like in 2x1 they show future iphones. Considering Apple sues literally everyone, it seems that they wanted it to be there.

In fact, this episode is what Siri would be when taken to it's extreme, and you know Apple wants data on stuff like this. As Booker shows in 2x2, being famous and being able to say what you want comes with a price.
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03-23-2013, 04:17 AM Post: #52
pezer Offline
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RE: Black Mirror
Insightful.

Indeed, it's not so much about not showing the truth as it is including the basic components that they need you to have, I agree with this premise.

My friend used to say that The Matrix is precisely made to be true so that you will think it's a lie.

The best one can do is speculate, but some things we know for sure, and our speculations may be less off or pulled-out-of-ass than they seem.
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03-23-2013, 04:40 AM Post: #53
BigTom Offline
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RE: Black Mirror
(03-22-2013 03:49 PM)Q Wrote:
Perhaps I haven't been exposed to the crazy stuff, but the pig fucking one, for me, was crazy. I was thinking about it for a long time. It's not so much 'Oh, that was shocking, a guy fucking a pig.'

It was something else.

Likewise, the way the memory implant one makes you look at the future is fucking horrifying. That is precisely where we are going.

Where will you draw the line? And then what happens? It's the subtle stuff that gets to me. I kinda look Booker. He knows what he is. It's not some saint, but these videos are such that they are powerful. I think, at least.

Tell me some of the videos you have found truly shocking. Dramas, that is. I'm sure you've seen some crazy spy torture or the like. Or maybe not. I shouldn't presume that.

I'm not denying that this is powerful stuff, it is but as I keep saying I reckon they are basically doing the same thing Chris Morris did with Jam a decade ago.

To be honest, nothing really shocks me in television drama. Perhaps it's just the word 'shock' that I'm finding problematic but it's usually only the real world that provokes a strong emotional reaction in me.

There is a scene in Spooks where one of the spooks is kidnapped by... whoever and for no obvious reason they clamp her in a chair with her head held in position with two big wooden blocks around her neck inside this big empty black room and they just leave her there for ages with water dripping on her head. That sort of thing bothers me more than, for example, the surprise murders in every HBO gangster show. Same with the scene in Das Experiment where the dude is locked in the small, lightproof, soundproof box. Fuckin' horrible.

I would rationalise it like this: there's nothing you can fundamentally do to stop people from being violent, except I suppose recreate them all digitally and then real physical fighting would be impossible. One cannot prevent violence, one can at best only ameliorate its consequences. So you could take away all the copycat-inducing glorification of violence in both the news and the entertainment media and we'd still have violence.

But when you explicitly portray for people how to torture people in the cruelest way, where you destroy their mind, destroy their connection with reality, that's something that most people simply would never think of without being shown it on TV. They might think of slapping their girlfriend, they might even slap her, but they'd never think of using sensory deprivation or chinese water torture.
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03-23-2013, 06:07 AM Post: #54
BigTom Offline
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RE: Black Mirror
(03-22-2013 05:32 PM)Q Wrote:
I feel like films are banned because of one of two reasons:

1. They are subversive to society. IE: They're violent and crazy
2. They're subversive to the system. IE: They give you an insight into how the system really works.

Some can do both.

I think it's that it is if they give you too much of an insight, too well, too quickly, too early. A little bit of insight is the revelation of the method.

Quote:
Film is so powerful. If clips of this show are allowed onto Youtube, it can do real damage. A lot of the time I picture myself on their side. "OK, if [this] thing took root, how much damage could it really do? All these laws are just fronts so that certain interests can do what they want.

It is curious that channel 4 offer the show on their own website but not via any of their many many youtube channels. They put shitloads of their stuff on youtube, but not this.

Quote:
People like Booker represent the faction of people that have realized that money trumps even their control sometimes. If you can put together a series that will make money, someone will air it somewhere. I don't even watch any British TV to know that '4' is probably not the most mainstream of the mainstream cable channels because Black Mirror is basically a series of films that tries to address the big power delusions:

1x1 - Democracy and The Crown's co-existence
1x2 - The celebrity/success sellout paradox
1x3 - Blindly just doing transhumanism

2x1 - Transhumanism again
2x2 - The voyeuristic society/how public execution is planned
2x3 - More British (Democracy) Stuff

Basically, what I'm just saying that there is obviously a priority on controlling who watches Category B.

What do you guys think?

1) His name is Brooker, not Booker.
2) You're right, channel 4 is the dedicated 'alternative end of the mainstream spectrum' channel. That's why it was set up - to feature odd stuff, racial/cultural minority stuff, whatever you wouldn't get on BBC or ITV (the first commercial TV channel in the UK). I don't disagree with your interpretation of the show.
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03-23-2013, 07:06 AM Post: #55
Q Offline
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RE: Black Mirror
Does anyone remember the show about the secret found in pain?

I wish I could remember that one.
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quote="Fixed Cross"] ChainOfBeing Offline
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When deep answers unto deep, what the world lacks you've already made up for. What you don't know can hurt you more than what you do know, the devil isn't in the details but in the half-veils and truthful lies, so effective. The mind is capable only of a certain kind of belief about beliefs, information is apportioned and has its effect quite variously depending upon the host of factors regarding its physical characteristics and properties (in a brain, in a "society" brain of/for others).

Communication is always a manipulation of the intentions and expectations of the other, shaping a dynamic equilibrium of utilities tending toward ambivalences. And we are always communicating firstly and lastly with ourselves.

How many orders of effects have you considered, how much futurity, how much decontextualized truth formative of how many and what kinds of emotional orders? To what shallow waters does your intention aspire that its effect breed a reality from chaos and the unwilled? What is man but the supremely single-minded, single-hearted being? You are soaked in the blood of your other realities, so where is your justice? You know you might not even live through the day, we are all on borrowed time. Just stop and think about what really matters to you, for fuck's sake.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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03-19-2013, 06:50 AM Post: #2
Q Offline
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Hmm.

Can you say that again but differently?
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03-19-2013, 08:10 AM Post: #3
pezer Offline
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Why? That was perfect.

Just stop and think about what really matters to you, for fuck's sake.
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03-25-2013, 06:26 AM Post: #4
Dannerz Offline
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Normally reality is incomprehensible because of how the factors are all churning and changing and flowing. But that is where the higher self comes into play. The higher self is so high level that it can, in some cases, even go so far as to manipulate the universe for the sake of its lower parts, which we are within, in our own way, mostly. In alchemy the goal is to improve matter. In spirituality the goal is to improve our state of mind and being. And in magic we utilize the soul and energy body.
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03-25-2013, 08:13 AM Post: #5
ChainOfBeing Offline
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Um.

What?

Greatest Value (freedom)
...in the sense as underlies and potentiates other values: freedom.

Freedom is merely the ability to act with relative non-hinderance, to "be natural" or at least to be capable of following one's own values and actions through to their logical and necessary consequences, with minimal disruption of these consequences/ends.

Freedom is not external, not in terms of money, power, jobs, ability to travel, lack of debt, not being in prison. These things do not matter. Why? because they are secondary values, or perhaps we might say, virtues. They are goods which are potentiated by truer valuations, such as for example the valuation of/as freedom.

Freedom is in "the mind". That is all.

...Religious constructs serve to potentiate this acting-toward-and-within "freedom", to cause to appear ladders down into the vast chains of being as erupt from beyond all knowing. The problem is that many of these religious constructs are relatively weak, what worked for man 2000 years ago may not have the same potentiating effect today. Also people use religion incorrectly, another huge problem.

Falsity is necessary to produce a structure whereby hidden "energies" are able to (feel themselves able to) manifest more openly, with less resistance and chaotic diffusion. Life is strange, and will shoot up, spread and grow everywhere if the ground is fertile enough.

(And who says that "the mind" is not as literally a physical ground of fertility and natural growth as any other natural ecosystem we observe in the world?) --->Tectonics dictates that indeed the mind is a physicality-strucutre of Literal Existence upon which are based quite literally Worlds and Universes of meaning and experience, whose interactions with what is otherwise thought of as "real life" still remain too "mysterious" for us to encounter other than through various manner of "voodoo ritual".

Three cheers for freedom. Go get some of that shit, if you don't already. Even if you regret it, you won't regret it.

Define it
Politics, philosophy. Ah to see, just to see, and to know. What tiny pleasures man still enjoys so much, and what puny ambitions!

Politicilosophy. Philosopholitics.

Sigh. But man is just not insane enough yet. Fuck. But I've seen some sanity, rare moments, little bits but there, very nice to see it, to breathe it in. Witness the first sapling.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.

Why be happy when you could be interesting?

Why does Zizek think one cannot be both?

This is an honest query. I do not raise this question in ignorance or out of simple-mindedness, but because I understand his position. Is (his brand of) psychoanalysis the final "god", the truly highest and most fruitful limit (for the philosopher)?

I think not. But let's talk about it.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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04-07-2013, 12:20 PM Unread post Post: #2
pezer Offline
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RE: Why be happy when you could be interesting?
I think not too. I think it was the greatest limit at one time, when the Sun was still quite far away. The result of a beautiful mind-revolution against the Eld.

Having been visiting a psychoanalyst myself, though of a more Winnicott-ian variety, the value I see in them is as Guattari once described it (and I paraphrase): You don't really break through anything, or achieve anything, or honestly change in any deep way. What you gain is a power for calm consideration of your emotional being, something that works much like when the Great Patriarch of planet Namek unleashes Kuririn and Gohan's hidden powers in Dragon Ball Z. Same guys, but calmer, scarier, more comfortable to be around and with a power to separate training from battle to a higher degree.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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04-08-2013, 07:58 AM Unread post Post: #3
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RE: Why be happy when you could be interesting?
(04-07-2013 11:36 AM)ChainOfBeing Wrote:

Why does Zizek think one cannot be both?

This is an honest query. I do not raise this question in ignorance or out of simple-mindedness, but because I understand his position. Is (his brand of) psychoanalysis the final "god", the truly highest and most fruitful limit (for the philosopher)?

I think not. But let's talk about it.
To be interesting as a goal seems confused to me. Then the little mental cliches of what an interesting person are become a kind of ego ideal. I mean, I doubt this is quite what he is looking for, but it seems like both a false dilemma and a dangerous one.

But I don't think he really has it as a false dilemma. I think he is just trying to attack the domination of the pursuit of happiness. Happiness often gets conflated with pleasure and then pleasure with rather emptied out physical acts. And purchasing happiness, these days.

I can't hear his video where I am now, but if I remember right, Zizek thinks that some of our wonderful obsessions, that really define who we are and what we most want to do, cause pain, and we take the pain because that is who we are and what we want to do. Whatever it is, research, creative work, etc.

If you run after the word happy, you may end up not living our your very self, which in fact you would prefer if the ideas of happiness was not the carrot you chose.

To me there is a sublter type of happiness in doing what you love even if you suffer (also), but I support is attack on happiness as THE GOAL.

Trying to be interesting, well, that as THE GOAL, seems just as dangerous to me.
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04-08-2013, 08:03 AM Unread post Post: #4
Q Offline
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RE: Why be happy when you could be interesting?
Zizek sees television and media characters as, instead of the commonly accepted "less" real, actually more real than any given person. Because these characters represent the ideal or the abstract. Happiness is more heavenly; depression is cosmic. It's the type of extremity that drives an artistic point home. It's been a while, but I think he says that we can enter into this world off-screen. I would say that, exposed to the big screen, this unconsciously becomes a semi-conscious drive. When you catch a glimpse of how good fashion, hair, bodies, etc can look, well, you get the idea in your head that you can be both happy and interesting. That you can be everything, perfectly.

I always loved Zizek for that theory. It makes watching Twin Peaks a whole other level of fucked.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?

quote="pezer"
"If you run after the word happy, you may end up not living our your very self, which in fact you would prefer if the ideas of happiness was not the carrot you chose."

[/quote]

Why does Zizek think one cannot be both?

You can't be both because you can't be happy. He associates being happy with getting what you want, and then says...

00:54
"We don't really want to get what we think we want...the classical story that I like...the traditional male chauvinist scenario. I am married to a wife. Relations with her are cold, and I have a mistress. And all the time I dream...'oh my god, if my wife were to disappear [...] it would open up new life for me with the mistress.' You know what every psychoanalyst would tell you quite often happens? That then, for some reason, wife goes away, you lose the mistress also. You thought this is all I want when you had it there, you turn out that it was a much more complex situation where what you want is not really to live with the mistress, but to keep her as a distance, as an object of desire about which you dream."

I can't think of places where Zizek discusses happiness, but I doubt he's serious. Here's something that can be construed as background for the above quoted text.

[/quote]

ChainOfBeing wrote:Yes it is a false dilemma, and yes a dangerous one. Lacan would answer with his own false dilemma, between jouissance and the external subjective order. But the mutually sustaining conditionality of things does not call reality into question, it propels forward and upward a new, "higher" kind of reality. Nor does man become called into question by his own structure, for this is philosophy itself, and as a wiser man once said to me, To live is to philosophize, rather we want to or not, rather we know it or not.

What is more self-divided and inexhaustible before itself is more "alive". Psychoanalysis serves to bring forth contradictions in the subjective nature and experience, not to purge these but to employ them, to allow them to become able to employ something (new). The psychoanalytic subject is not irreducible nor irreducibly complex, not even reductively so.

No facet of existence is belied because it gives cause for the existence of a different facet, rather by process of derivation or impossibilization. Man is just ignorant of the many sides of himself, conceptually at least; however he is highly aware at the level of instinct and feeling, his moralities reflect a functioning awareness of internal conflict and mutual expression of the irreducible. Zizek would do well to supplement psychologism with subtler experience, the more profound openness and humility that must stand beside the ruthlessness and tyranny at the heart of the true and living philosopher. In the end, after all is said and done, philosophy like living is about creating, is about (a certain kind of (possibilizing of/for/with respect to)) activity.
[/quote]
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
- Thucydides

see it now?

Thunderbolt steers all things.
- Heraclitus

Fixed Cross
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### Re: New Moon Ashes

Beautiful chaos
There is ugly chaos and then there is beautiful chaos. The difference may only be one of perspective, of distance. Or only a matter of self-valuing.

It isn't all utilitarian, you know, far from it. Break on through....

Ethics impossibility
People who come to know and grow comfortable with each other usually tend to treat each other more like shit, find it easier to slide into objectifying relations where the carnal, untamed ego snarles forth in all its natural beauty and vehemence. Then effort can be applied to tame the beast, to collar and muzzle it.

Without risk there is no life. Truth is risk for the sake of (a certain kind of) living, or rather for the sake of not dying (a slow and degenerative death).

If you can't hurt the other, if you have no such will nor a willingness to be hurt, which manifests itself in a moment as impulse to defense, then you cannot love, and life is merely a slow dying. The biggest problem with rampant un-philosophical humanism or idealism is that it is basically a loud proclamation, "I am mostly harmless", and calling this an ethical standard.

Ontology of Man
Aggregated causal relations that attain to the production of more summational effects emergent of their average activity, or at least of the absence of the extremities of the components of their laws in the emergence of these activities, being inwardly compounded and more intimately linked in their mutual determinacy, constitute what I have called a plane of causality, or a plate tectonic. What we call organisms are build upon these sort of tectonic plates, a veritable shifting landscape of interacting components that both share and violate each other's activity and "intention" to perform the discharge of their mandate upon their conditions. A single cell is such an example, as could also be considered a single molecule such an example, especially where the molecule is more derivative, more "complex" ("larger") than not.

Living systems are the aggregation of many systems of plate tectonics formative of a world, the organism itself. The history constructs the layers and pieces of these plates, and the geometry of a physical moment constitutes its activity, its "living". Free will is merely that kind of total determination which possesses some responsiveness to the active absence of some more or less imposing component/s of its own causal order/s which it nonetheless still feels as an active presence within this order, even where "absent". Self-consciousness is merely that kind of tectonic meta-system or 'world' ("organ-ism") whose causal order/s possess this feeling of "freedom", of a sense of past and a projected sense of the various systemically-realized possibilities of affective expression; namely, that is has something of an "imagination".

This is the ontology of man. Like it or not, this is what he "is". Science is entirely subsumed under philosophy, under logic. The method of philosophy is nothing but psychology, what humans have yet barely begun to discover.

That which avoids itself and returns to itself only through the most convoluted and circuitous route most possesses itself, since that which does not flee itself can never return to itself, can never gain a "perspective".
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.

ote="Fixed Cross"]Ontology of the accident
Eternality, rivers which flow inward, bypasses set up, what cuts through the stuff of solid resistance and porous of causalities, imagined loops, trifles, the tinkering half-conscious with things along the borders of experience.

Externality, the set of sets transcribing a dawn, feeding medication-induced intoxications, establishing order between the gate and the guard, holding the keys, assurances of peace and the mad sleep of the quiet lion.

The accident of things recalls the accident of our birth, which itself is beyond all recollection. Only an isolated harmony would vibrate, unplanned for, along the spine of such an instinctive cosmos.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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04-13-2013, 08:57 AM Post: #2
JSS Offline
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RE: Ontology of the accident
Yeah, but can you prove it?
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04-13-2013, 09:09 AM Post: #3
ChainOfBeing Offline
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RE: Ontology of the accident
I just did.
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04-24-2013, 09:14 AM Post: #4
ChainOfBeing Offline
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RE: Ontology of the accident
Or, since that didn't work: what would you accept as a standard of "proof" here?
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.

ChainOfBeing Offline
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Philosophy as history
The entire history of humanity had been the history of what humans call thinking and feeling; evolution of the internal imaging system, development of the modes f regulating this system (languages, behavior, emotions), and every more derivative thing that had emerged as a result. We are taught how to think, what to think, how to feel, what to feel, how to live, what to live, how to die, what to die.

Philosophy is nothing more than learning bit by bit how to speak the language of history. And we speak only what history had given us, rather out of insight or ignorance, generality or genius.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.

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The eye no longer sees, or...
'It is perhaps at this juncture that the question, "What does it mean?" begins to be heard, and the problems of exegesis prevail over problems of use and efficacy. The emperor, the god---what does this mean? In place of segments of the chain that are always detachable, a detached partial object on which the whole chain depends; in place of a polyvocal graphism flush with the real, a biunivocalization forming the transcendent dimension that gives rise to a linearity; in place of nonsignifying signs that compose the networks of a territorial chain, a despotic signifier from which all the signs uniformly flow in a deterritorialized flow of writing. Men have ever been seen drinking this flow...

Writing---the first deterritorialized flow, drinkable on this account: it flows from the despotic signifier. For what is the signifier in the first instance? What is it in relation to the non signifying territorial signs, when it jumps outside their chains and imposes---superimposes---a plane of subordination on their plane of immanent connotation? The signifier is the sign that has become a sign of the sign, the despotic sign having replaced the territorial sign, having crossed the threshold of deterritorialization; the signifier is merely the deterritorialized sign itself. The sign made letter. Desire no longer dares to desire, having become a desire of desire, a desire of the despot's desire. The mouth no longer speaks, it drinks the letter. The eye no longer sees, it reads. The body no longer allows itself to be engraved like the earth, but prostrates itself before the engravings of the despot, the region beyond the earth, the new full body.'
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.

rabattre sur
Just try to reduce the limit of sense's irreconcilable experience before the wider logos of rational reflection, maybe purge something in order to imprison something else, & what revolt or eros sustains your whispering heart, so confide in the dimensionality of (a) time.

What has most *life introduced into your heart?

*[notation missing]

Enrapturing Ideality
LegendxGodly 1 hour ago
You dont need to be gay to like the song dipshit.﻿

zCautioNz 1 day ago
i﻿ would favorite this song, but the first two lines = instant disliked (i am far from gay)

Aaron Dash 1 day ago
You probably didn't ruin their day. Whenever that happens to me and my boyfriend we just laugh at the fact that those people's brains are smaller than ours and can't understand equality. Also, saying hateful things to two men really isn't a good idea (especially if﻿ you're alone). You just might get chased down and get your ass kicked Smile

I'm an atheist. No if indeed, existed, God exists but what I know is that people hate each other, without any logical reason, based on the bible my balls. Instead of respecting, hate evil, not to love ... ps i love the beat﻿ , lyrics especially when says SHE KEEPS ME WARM, LOVE IS PATIENT, LOVE IS KIND. ps2 true words.

zephyrbat 3 days ago
synonymous, not anonymous.﻿

PilarKathleenPouchet 1 week ago
God doesn't hate gay people. Don't be stupid. Ignore all silly comments you get from people & their religions. God loves you no matter who or﻿ what you are.

smileymileylove101 1 week ago
So many of the comments on this video are just horribale...saying this song is gay and Macklemore is only﻿ writing this to make $. I'm sick of all the hurtful comments...you should have more respect towards people and think about how other's feel for onece. It's not all about you. Reply · smileymileylove101 1 week ago same...the song has a lot of meaning that is hard to take in all at one time.﻿ I feel you. Reply · in reply to spaztron88 (Show the comment) girlofanimation 1 week ago Just realized that last part sounds like 'God hates hateful people'. I meant, God doesn't hate anyone. Only hateful people try﻿ to tell us otherwise. Reply · in reply to girlofanimation (Show the comment) girlofanimation 1 week ago He doesn't. God loves everyone, regardless of sexual orientation. It's just ignorant people. There is no place in the Bible that ever says that God hates homosexual people. There are places, however, where it﻿ says that God loves everyone Abandon all hope, ye who enter here. Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-08-2013, 02:33 AM Post: #2 ChainOfBeing Offline Probationer Posts: 178 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 4 RE: Enrapturing Ideality whateverppl1229 2 hours ago No not everyone are pigs, she said ART meaning the music is﻿ not just music its art. go back to your whore house and leave the good music alone. Reply · in reply to Mike K. (Show the comment) whateverppl1229 2 hours ago You miss﻿ spelled I'm an attention whore flag me. Reply · in reply to carlito pandis (Show the comment) Mike K. 18 hours ago hmm hot chick 35 likes one word comment..something tells me that half these likes are only﻿ cause that girl is smokin hot..XD Reply · in reply to Vanessa Palma (Show the comment) Jerry Krits 1 day ago cooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo­oooooooooooooooooooool﻿ Reply · septumis 2 days ago I don't know who you are. I don't know what you want. But I will find you. And﻿ I will beat the fuck out of you. -_- Reply · 2 in reply to carlito pandis (Show the comment) FSquid 2 days ago Brilliant work but﻿ really, trolling tool fans is like shooting fish in a barrel. Reply · 2 in reply to carlito pandis (Show the comment) sdhawk4life 3 days ago 3﻿ Libras Brilliant Reply · gorlist187 3 days ago now this is﻿ an album that brings back memories Reply · rreegg333 3 days ago it is!!!!!﻿ Reply · in reply to Richard Chance (Show the comment) JimmyDiggs87 3 days ago I think so. It was like 9 years ago, so I'm not﻿ certain. Reply · in reply to Mark Tarr (Show the comment) HarleyTheMad 4 days ago What a blast from the past, I've forgotten how much﻿ I love this band, thank you so much for uploading the whole album! Favorited and liked! Reply · in playlist Favorite videos FALTEREDBEAST 4 days ago You win the award for dumbass comment of the year. Fucken Chevelle.... Get outta here﻿ with that weak ass shit. Reply · in reply to carlito pandis (Show the comment) atomicbomba 4 days ago This has been flagged as spam show • Not Spam Carlos Hernández 5 days ago WTF are﻿ you talking about????... chevelle..... ppppppppppffffffffffffffffffff­ffffff Reply · in reply to carlito pandis (Show the comment) Abandon all hope, ye who enter here. Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-08-2013, 01:32 PM Post: #3 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Enrapturing Ideality septumis 2 days ago I don't know who you are. I don't know what you want. But I will find you. And﻿ I will beat the fuck out of you. -_- Reply · 2 in reply to carlito pandis (Show the comment) I love this one. Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Time Let's talk about time. What do you think it is? Explain. Abandon all hope, ye who enter here. Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-11-2013, 10:46 PM Post: #2 JSS Offline Moderator Posts: 287 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Time Too easy.. Time ≡ the measure of relative change. Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-11-2013, 11:10 PM Post: #3 ChainOfBeing Offline Probationer Posts: 178 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 4 RE: Time That is exactly what I was going to say. Abandon all hope, ye who enter here. Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-12-2013, 05:57 AM Post: #4 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Time Time is the aspect of continuation that englobes and encompasses others. Things keep going... If you decide to ask why, the answer is time. Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-12-2013, 11:09 AM Post: #5 ChainOfBeing Offline Probationer Posts: 178 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 4 RE: Time So what's all this nonsense about time being a dimension? Abandon all hope, ye who enter here. Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-12-2013, 03:33 PM Post: #6 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Time It's a dimension in the sense that it is a measure. You can reliably detect the amount of time from one point in spacetime to another. Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-14-2013, 02:00 AM Post: #7 ChainOfBeing Offline Probationer Posts: 178 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 4 RE: Time Only in relation, as a relativized proportion. A dimension implies a plane of more or less causal consistency, law, a "grounding" from which things grow and relate as through a medium. If time is a dimension then time acts like a plane of consistency for things, like the highway beneath the car. Something "solid" upon which things move and to which they continuously refer. Is time really like this? Or is the idea of a "time dimension" a sloppy shortcut to thinking, an inaccurate conceptual atavism? Abandon all hope, ye who enter here. Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-14-2013, 03:54 AM Post: #8 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Time It makes sense in a very specific academic sense. Perhaps you are right and we should drop it... In any case, my definition uses the word "aspect," which I think we can fairly call it. Science is found in the question "how do you know?" The philosopher's dilemma "My God! Of course not! I don’t want to deal with myself. I don’t want to exist. I just want to think." --Zizek Abandon all hope, ye who enter here. Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Bill Wiltrack wrote:. .................................................. Is it possible that The philosopher's dilemma involves separating ones self from their thoughts? . Thread Review (Newest First) Posted by pezer - 05-18-2013 10:12 PM Bah... That's just one of the dilemmas, Bill, and quite escapable. The one ChainOfBeing is pointing out is less easy to escape, because it would require going outside not to be programmed to reflect your self right back at you. Thinking without being is a goal for humanity, or a segment of it, not a single philosopher (unless he happens to be rich as fuck, I suppose). ChainOfBeing Offline Probationer Posts: 178 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 4 Freedom and determinism are the same thing. Groovy. Abandon all hope, ye wh Bill Wiltrack wrote:. Do we first have to determine what is freedom? .......................................................................... . pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Freedom and determinism First you have to free what is determined. Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-19-2013, 01:05 AM (This post was last modified: 05-19-2013 01:06 AM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #4 ChainOfBeing Offline Probationer Posts: 178 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 4 RE: Freedom and determinism What we call freedom is an (equally determined, but (also, in addition to) by something else) perspective upon what is determined, or said another way freedom is the way in which things exist-act with respect to that which they have structurally integrated into their own body, to that which they have "overcome". Freedom requires an "awareness" of the unfree, of the determined Law. This is merely a sense-response capacity within the body. Being able to respond to something means one has gained some distance from/over it, which is all that freedom means. It does not mean that one is still not nonetheless entirely over-determined by entirely different and greater orders of causalities. To exist implies at least a minimal degree of freedom. Likewise, a so-called unbounded or absolute freedom is entirely impossible, since to be "totally free" would mean to destroy that upon which freedom exists in the first place. Life is the combination of various things that are a part of it and which have become more or less "free" with respect to other things that are also a part of it, but you always need the two extremes: the purely determined-reactive as law, what is "below the unconscious", and the transcendental dimension of unlimited over-deterministic potentiality, what is "above the conscious". Only in the more psychologically and neurologically complex animals, who possess something of an inner language and abstraction, is this latter extreme anything but a collapsed 0-dimensional point, a "unexpressed potentiality" that nonetheless serves to continuously antagonize the entity's instinctive body with immediate and mad images of "the other". For simpler life-forms without much depth of inner language or abstraction, the dimension of freedom is the greatest slavery. This is why it is only when we begin to unwind and tear apart this dimension that life begins to gain new powers of practical action, new modes of possible experiencing. Abandon all hope, ye who enter here. Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-19-2013, 01:53 AM Post: #5 ChainOfBeing Offline Probationer Posts: 178 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 4 RE: Freedom and determinism Not since I have created my own language, no it is not. The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must. - Thucydides see it now? Thunderbolt steers all things. - Heraclitus Fixed Cross Doric Usurper Posts: 6695 Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:53 am ### Re: New Moon Ashes Addictions These are our best friends, truly the best. It is through these wonderful companions that we are able to encounter and to expand our "willpower", to employ an archaic but perhaps not entirely useless term. Addictions function to mirror "self" to "self", through the objective "Other-ness"... meaning in less metaphysical jargon, one causal plane, carrying with it its own inherited structurality and law, collides with/in another causal plane, also carrying its own inherited structurality and law, resulting in eruptions of strange and tremendous logics, whole new tectonic potencies and what humans so fondly refer to as their "self-control". What lies inside the mind, the psyche, the intent, the expression, the conformity to experience and expressionality, to the vague, the mysterious, the awe-inspiring, the terrorizing, the humane and the vindictive alike, is exposed as if through a brilliant explosion of light and heat, radiated inward, for where else is it supposed to go, really? What friction does radiate outward will immediately become recaptured by the body's gravity, for to progressively invoke powers here progressively necessitates the near-simultaneous development of 'insane machines of absolute capture'. Abandon all hope, ye who enter here. Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-26-2013, 08:33 AM Post: #2 Bill Wiltrack Offline Probationer Posts: 86 Joined: Feb 2013 Reputation: 1 RE: Addictions . We are all addicts and we are all weak. Weaker than shadows... and helpless against these demons. . Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-26-2013, 08:37 AM Post: #3 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Addictions That's like saying that we are helpless against the demons of food, love, curiosity, sex, adrenaline, instinct, sight, thought, breath.... Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-26-2013, 08:37 AM Post: #4 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Addictions If these be demons, call me a shaitanist. Bill Wiltrack wrote:. ..................................... I'm sorry. What I was trying to say is, we are helpless against the demons of food, love, curiosity, sex, adrenaline, instinct, sight, thought, breath.... Thank you for allowing me to clear that up. . pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Addictions We have been created by those demons. Eating doesn't serve our souls, our souls serve eating. More than helplesness, inconsequence. Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Bill Wiltrack wrote:. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to bring-up the topic of souls...urm, wait a minute...? ..................................................... . pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Addictions Don't be scared of your own insinuations now. Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-26-2013, 10:57 AM Post: #9 Bill Wiltrack Offline Probationer Posts: 86 Joined: Feb 2013 Reputation: 1 RE: Addictions . Yeah...you're right... I didn't mean to bring-up the term insinuations. Sorry. Just forget it. . Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-26-2013, 11:12 AM Post: #10 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Addictions This is a bad way to admit a broken point. RE: The scariest fucking thing ever RE: The scariest fucking thing ever A rectangle of space? How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-20-2013, 04:52 AM Post: #3 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: The scariest fucking thing ever No, the hoards of prostrated men around it. Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-20-2013, 06:55 AM Post: #4 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: The scariest fucking thing ever I am perhaps missing something here. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-20-2013, 10:03 PM Post: #5 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: The scariest fucking thing ever http://beauty-places.com/wp-content/uplo...lpaper.jpg Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-21-2013, 05:14 PM Post: #6 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: The scariest fucking thing ever Much better to face these kinds of things with a sense of poise and rationality. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-21-2013, 06:05 PM Post: #7 ChainOfBeing Offline Probationer Posts: 178 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 4 RE: The scariest fucking thing ever Yeah exactly, that's why its so goddamn terrifying. Abandon all hope, ye who enter here. Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-21-2013, 09:00 PM Post: #8 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: The scariest fucking thing ever The blinding terror of the gleeful rejection of reason. Addictions These are our best friends, truly the best. It is through these wonderful companions that we are able to encounter and to expand our "willpower", to employ an archaic but perhaps not entirely useless term. Addictions function to mirror "self" to "self", through the objective "Other-ness"... meaning in less metaphysical jargon, one causal plane, carrying with it its own inherited structurality and law, collides with/in another causal plane, also carrying its own inherited structurality and law, resulting in eruptions of strange and tremendous logics, whole new tectonic potencies and what humans so fondly refer to as their "self-control". What lies inside the mind, the psyche, the intent, the expression, the conformity to experience and expressionality, to the vague, the mysterious, the awe-inspiring, the terrorizing, the humane and the vindictive alike, is exposed as if through a brilliant explosion of light and heat, radiated inward, for where else is it supposed to go, really? What friction does radiate outward will immediately become recaptured by the body's gravity, for to progressively invoke powers here progressively necessitates the near-simultaneous development of 'insane machines of absolute capture'. Abandon all hope, ye who enter here. Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-26-2013, 08:33 AM Post: #2 Bill Wiltrack Offline Probationer Posts: 86 Joined: Feb 2013 Reputation: 1 RE: Addictions . We are all addicts and we are all weak. Weaker than shadows... and helpless against these demons. . Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-26-2013, 08:37 AM Post: #3 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Addictions That's like saying that we are helpless against the demons of food, love, curiosity, sex, adrenaline, instinct, sight, thought, breath.... Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-26-2013, 08:37 AM Post: #4 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Addictions If these be demons, call me a shaitanist. ChainOfBeing Offline Probationer Posts: 178 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 4 Univocity Differences differenced inwardly as well as outwardly along planes of latitude and longitude. Scales of identities linked in how they share particular characteristics and kinds of differentiations across differing orders of materialities. Not Platonic, but Daemonic. At bottom: the virtual multi/non-dimensional cross-referentiality of "past and future", time-as-space and space-as-time in the vague soup of pre-reflective agitation-as-inability-to-rest; "chasmos". [Insert Value Ontology Here] Deleuze: Pluralism = monism. Fucking A, man. Why has philosophy had its head up its ass for so goddamn long? Abandon all hope, ye who enter here. Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Report this post to a moderator 05-27-2013, 06:51 PM (This post was last modified: 05-27-2013 06:52 PM by pezer.) Unread post Post: #2 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Univocity Christians. Goddamn christians. ChainOfBeing Offline Probationer Posts: 178 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 4 Univocity Differences differenced inwardly as well as outwardly along planes of latitude and longitude. Scales of identities linked in how they share particular characteristics and kinds of differentiations across differing orders of materialities. Not Platonic, but Daemonic. At bottom: the virtual multi/non-dimensional cross-referentiality of "past and future", time-as-space and space-as-time in the vague soup of pre-reflective agitation-as-inability-to-rest; "chasmos". [Insert Value Ontology Here] Deleuze: Pluralism = monism. Fucking A, man. Why has philosophy had its head up its ass for so goddamn long? Abandon all hope, ye who enter here. ChainOfBeing wrote: P e h a i t l i o o s n o _ p o h f y _ _ c i o s n _ c t e h p e t _ s c> r > RE: Metaphilosophy The human mind and experience is the creation of connections. It happens automatically. I think philosophy is the process of rendering questions less pertinent. If you look back at philosophy, proper, you find that it's all just advancing the plot. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-27-2013, 06:47 PM Unread post Post: #3 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Metaphilosophy ¡¡NIETZSCHE!! Philosophy is historical. If we listen to Deleuze, and we should always make space for Deleuze (lol, more like understand it), it is the craftsmanship of ideas. Concepts are a modern word for ideas, it puts them in a narrower field, ties them to linguistics in a self-reflective way that humans have been mastering lately. Philosophy doesn't matter, but only because of its own sheer strength of self-overcoming. Science is found in the question "how do you know?" pezer wrote:[video=youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DskjRer95s[/video] Bill Wiltrack wrote:. .................................................... . ChainOfBeing wrote: T--s o-----s _--------e l-----------s i-----------_ v--------t e-----o _-_ mw e---h a------i n---------c s-----------h _-----------_ t---------o o-----n _-e f_ i--i n-----s e--------_ s-----------s s-----------u e--------b _----j t--u hg e--a _-----t p--------e r-----------d o-----------> c----------> e-------> Bill Wiltrack wrote:. .................................................. .....................................To live means to finesse the processes to which one is subjugated. . W.C. wrote: Q wrote:If you look back at philosophy, proper, you find that it's all just advancing the plot. I was very much reminded of Artaud, and felt strangely compelled to add the following on the above quote... The Theatre and Its Double - 1938 - Artaud wrote:In true theatre, a play disturbs the senses' repose, frees the repressed unconscious, incites a kind of virtual revolt (which moreover can have its full effect only if it remains virtual), and imposes on the assembled collectively an attitude that is both difficult and heroic. Thus in Ford's 'Tis Pity She's a Whore, from the moment the curtain rises, we see to our utter stupefaction a creature flung into an insolent vindication of incest, exerting all the vigor of his youthful consciousness to proclaim and justify it. He does not waver an instant, does not hesitate a minute, and thereby shows of how little account are all the barriers that could be opposed to him. He is heroically criminal and audaciously, ostentatiously heroic. Everything drives him in this direction and inflames his enthusiasm; he recognises neither earth nor heaven, only the force of his convulsive passion, to which the rebellious and equally heroic passion of Annabella does not fail to respond. 'I weep,' she says, 'not with remorse but for fear I shall not be able to satisfy my passion.' They are both forgers, hypocrites, and liars for the sake of their superhuman passion which laws obstruct and condemn but which they will put beyond the law. Vengeance for vengeance, and crime for crime. When we believed them threatened, hunted down, lost, when we are ready to pity them as victims, then they reveal themselves ready to render destiny threat for threat and blow for blow. With them we proceed from excess to excess and vindication to vindication. Annabella is captured, convicted of adultery and incest, trampled upon, insulted, dragged by the hair, and we are astonished to discover that far from seeking a means of escape, she provokes her executioner still further and sings out in a kind of obstinate heroism. It is the absolute condition of revolt, it is an exemplary case of love without respite which makes us, the spectators, gasp with anguish at the idea that nothing will ever be able to stop it. If we desire an example of absolute freedom in revolt, Ford's Annabella provides this poetic example bound up with the image of absolute danger. And when we tell ourselves we have reached the paroxysm of horror, blood, and flouted laws, of poetry which consecrates revolt, we are obliged to advance still further into an endless vertigo. But ultimately, we tell ourselves, there is vengeance, there is dead for such audacity and such irresistible crime. But there is no such thing. Giovanni, the lover, inspired by the passion of a great poet, puts himself beyond vengeance, beyond crime, by still another crime, one that is indescribably passionate; beyond threats, beyond horror by an even greater horror, one which overthrows at one and the same time law, morality, and all those who dare set themselves up as administrators of justice. A trap is cleverly set, a great banquet is given where, among the guests, hired ruffians and spies are to be hidden, ready at the first signal to throw themselves upon him. But this hero, cornered, lost, and inspired by love, will let no one pass sentence on this love. You want, he seems to say, my love's flesh and blood. Very well, I will throw my love in your face and shower you with its blood—for you are incapable of rising to its height! And he kills his beloved and tears out her heart as if to feast upon it in the middle of a banquet where he himself is the one whom the guests had hoped to devour. And before being executed, he manages to kill his rival, his sister's husband, who has dared to come between him and his love, and despatches him in a final combat which then appears as his own spasm of agony. Like the plague, the theatre is a formidable call to the forces that impel the mind by example to the source of its conflicts. And it is evident that Ford's passional example merely symbolises a still greater and absolutely essential task. The terrorising apparition of Evil which in the Mysteries of Eleusis was produced in its pure, truly revealed form corresponds to the dark hour of certain ancient tragedies which all true theatre must recover. If the essential theatre is like the plague, it is not because it is contagious, but because like the plague it is the revelation, the bringing forth, the exteriorisation of a depth of latent cruelty by means of which all the perverse possibilities of the mind, whether of an individual or a people, are localised. Like the plague the theatre is the time of evil, the triumph of dark powers that are nourished by a power even more profound until extinction. In the theatre as in the plague there is a kind of strange sun, a light of abnormal intensity by which it seems that the difficult and even the impossible suddenly become our normal element. And Ford's play, like all true theatre, is within the radiance of this strange sun. His Annabella resembles the plague's freedom by means of which, from degree to degree, stage to stage, the victim swells his individuality and the survivor gradually becomes a grandiose and overwhelming being. We can now say that all true freedom is dark, and infallibly identified with sexual freedom which is also dark, although we do not know precisely why. For it has been a long time since the Platonic Eros, the procreative sense, the freedom of life vanished beneath the sombre veneer of the Libido which is identified with all that is dirty, abject, infamous in the process of living and of throwing oneself headlong with a natural and impure vigour, with a perpetually renewed strength, upon life. And that is why all the great Myths are dark, so that one cannot imagine, save in an atmosphere of carnage, torture and bloodshed, all the magnificent Fables which recount to the multitudes the first sexual division and the first carnage of essences that appeared in creation. The theatre, like the plague, is in the image of this carnage and this essential separation. It releases conflicts, disengages powers, liberates possibilities, and if these possibilities and these powers are dark, it is not the fault of the plague nor of the theatre, but of life. We do not see that life as it is and as it has been fashioned for us provides many reasons for exultation. It appears that by means of the plague, a gigantic abscess, as much moral as social, has been collectively drained; and that like the plague, the theatre has been created to drain abscesses collectively. Perhaps the theatre’s position, injected into the social body, disintegrates it, as Saint Augustine says, but at least it does so as a plague, as an avenging scourge, a redeeming epidemic in which credulous ages have chosen to see the finger of God in which is nothing but the application of a law of nature whereby every gesture is counterbalanced by a gesture and every action by its reaction. The theatre like the plague is a crisis which is resolved by death or cure. And the plague is a superior disease because it is a total crisis after which nothing remains except death or an extreme purification. Similarly the theatre is a disease because it is the supreme equilibrium which cannot be achieved without destruction. It invites the mind to share a delirium which exults its energies; and we can see, to conclude, that from the human point of view, the action of theatre, like that of plague, is beneficial, for, impelling men to see themselves as they are, it causes the mask to fall, reveals the lie, the slackness, baseness, and hypocrisy of our world; it shakes off the asphyxiating inertia of matter which invades even the clearest testimony of the senses; and in revealing to the collectivities of men their dark power, their hidden force, it invites them to take, in the face of destiny, a superior and heroic attitude they would never have assumed without it. And the question we must now ask is whether, in this slippery world which is committing suicide without noticing it, there can be found a nucleus of men capable of imposing this superior notion of the theatre, men who will restore to all of us the natural and magic equivalent of the dogmas in which we no longer believe. The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must. - Thucydides see it now? Thunderbolt steers all things. - Heraclitus Fixed Cross Doric Usurper Posts: 6695 Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:53 am ### Re: New Moon Ashes RE: Advertising You are not reading what I am writing it seems. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-21-2013, 06:16 AM (This post was last modified: 05-21-2013 06:22 AM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #32 Fixed Cross Offline Neophyte Posts: 466 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 8 Warning Level: 0% RE: Advertising You mean ads as communication, right? Without an agenda. On the one hand I think it's still a vanity project - your self-valuing will always speak a different value than universal benevolence. You'll always be biased and thus antagonizing certain others. Still, if the intention is less consciously specific, you might effect better results, in terms of peoples free choice to either hear you or not. We can bring a degree of freedom to advertising, separate of profi, the techniques of drawing the love of others for the sake of itself - "romancing the stone". Even so it wil be hard to match and top the great campaigns of history - drawn broadly you can see the whole of civilization as a war of advertising campaigns. Statues, columns, incense, naked women talking gibberish, a crucifix, a 20th Century Fox intro, evocations of intuitions, One in so many men always knew how to speak that way, and when he did he was followed. A key to the great campaigns is that they all did carry a rudimentary value to sell, something that could be milked, drawn out over time, emptied to the bottom, exploited. Empires fall when there's nothing new to advertise, no angle to the original power/glory that fed the kingdom its narrative-political sap. Advertise with blood. How thin will your ads stretch reality? Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Edit this post Delete this post Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-21-2013, 06:30 AM Post: #33 Fixed Cross Offline Neophyte Posts: 466 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 8 Warning Level: 0% RE: Advertising Another thought is that between the ad-narratives of history, the conflict and absurd void between, them, that this 'sea of possibilities' can be excavated from its being-as-blurr(between logics) into "Form" ad-fundum. Binah - Ah. Binah is the form that emerges most primordially out of force - instill forms into the nervous system, touch certain 'chords' of electrochemical timing, speak to 'cycles' - perpetuate certain 'happiness' -- and arrow, a goal -- Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Edit this post Delete this post Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-21-2013, 07:44 AM Post: #34 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Advertising Q, if I did understand your meaning, what kind of answer might I write? I hope we are past suspecting sarcasm in each other. Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-21-2013, 04:35 PM Post: #35 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising Quote: Even so it will be hard to match and top the great campaigns of history I think that we found ourselves in the realm of selling ideas. Whereas the Bernays stuff was more toward selling things. Which is to say that, yes, communication is advertising. Quote: Without an agenda. No. With an agenda, just a transparent one. For example, when you to go web page... Fundamentally, there isn't a lot of lying going on. You just get told what is up. I know I am not explaining this very well. I will keep trying to do so, though. All I know is I am me, and I know all of you, and this is all based on our past experiences, but I don't see any moral qualm with working in advertising/marketing. Like I said, I think that it will always be around in some way or another. We sell and we buy. That's what we do in some way or another. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-21-2013, 05:32 PM Post: #36 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Advertising Oh, I don't see any moral problem with it either. My problem is stratego-philosophical. That's why I keep using the Meatrix comparison. "Moraly," if you must, Morpheous and Lock are on the same team. Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-21-2013, 06:06 PM Post: #37 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising Quote: Advertising is sales, and I don't trust a sales system based on the premise that it's fine to make shit up to fit your intended message (in advertising, usually shitty primal ones deemed whatever by the oligarchic order), like it's art. How is it really different than art? How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-21-2013, 06:14 PM Post: #38 ChainOfBeing Offline Probationer Posts: 178 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 4 RE: Advertising As Fixed Cross once wrote, it serves to stimulate the feeling that something interesting is going on, rather than give or move one toward any kind of actual real value. Self-valuing is manipulated, much in the same way that religion manipulates it -- co-opted the valuational mechanism and making it serve ends foreign and even self-destructive to it. If the self-valuing values accidentally or only partially, by assuming the standards of others as its own, it breeds in its own destruction. This is the real problem with advertising, it is just another modern form of quasi-religious intoxication and insanity-manipulation. I agree with Q that advertising can and should be made more efficient, if we are speaking from within the modern paradigm itself, for of course this makes good sense. But seeing the whole picture, all you are doing is helping the system refine its tools, sharpen its fangs, and put even heavier locks on the doors of the self. The world wants to imprison you. This is what the world "is", no "conspiracies" needed. Take religion, politics, economics, morality, advertising, you name it. Various systems used to breed various kinds of human beings. Just because your intention is to remove some impurities and excesses of one of these system does not mean your aim is in any way ethical or good, or is not merely assisting the behemoth in its task to devour you whole. Remember, if it doesn't need to chew quite so much, it's that much less effort it needs to bother with. Someone once said that true propaganda slips in without any resistance. And you have not yet defined what you consider to be the distinction between propaganda and advertising. You seem to be clearly against the one, clearly in favor of the other (your idea of it) so where do you draw the difference? Advertising for Coca-Cola has probably killed more humans on this planet than any conflict or war in human history, and probably generated more concentrated wealth than any great colonization and spoils of war. Abandon all hope, ye who enter here. Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-21-2013, 06:17 PM Post: #39 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising In the ideal, I mean. It seems like being on the internet and advertising is the same thing in a manner of speaking. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-21-2013, 06:18 PM Post: #40 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising Quote: Someone once said that true propaganda slips in without any resistance. I am saying: let's make this a good thing. RE: Advertising Quote: And you have not yet defined what you consider to be the distinction between propaganda and advertising. I thought I explained this. (05-20-2013 10:38 AM)Q Wrote: The difference is as follows: Propaganda — Exploiting a known weakness or tendency in someone, or a group of people's psychology. (Proper) Advertising — Offering someone something that they may want, tailored to complement that psychology. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-21-2013, 06:21 PM Post: #42 ChainOfBeing Offline Probationer Posts: 178 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 4 RE: Advertising I asked you earlier here toward what end/s you aim, and you replied, "Just for the sake of doing it." What makes you think you are in any way qualified to decide what "good" is to be served here? Abandon all hope, ye who enter here. Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-21-2013, 06:28 PM Post: #43 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising Why is art made, though? Just for the sake of doing it. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-21-2013, 08:48 PM Post: #44 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Advertising (05-21-2013 06:06 PM)Q Wrote: Quote: Advertising is sales, and I don't trust a sales system based on the premise that it's fine to make shit up to fit your intended message (in advertising, usually shitty primal ones deemed whatever by the oligarchic order), like it's art. How is it really different than art? Art sells itself. Advertising sells X. Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-21-2013, 08:49 PM Post: #45 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Advertising And X = Oligarchic Power Interests in the most brutal way. Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-21-2013, 08:50 PM (This post was last modified: 05-21-2013 08:51 PM by pezer.) Post: #46 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Advertising Much art is sneaky advertising, and that is what perhaps is known as propaganda. (Interesting fact, propaganda is the word for simple advertising in Spanish, the term propaganda política being used for what the simple word is used by gringos.) Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-21-2013, 08:55 PM (This post was last modified: 05-21-2013 08:57 PM by pezer.) Post: #47 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Advertising Propaganda comes from the verb propagar, -anda is like a kind of "of the." Propagar means to disseminate, pro- determinign action, movement, and pagar meaning to pay, to give something of value in exchange. Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-22-2013, 01:26 AM Post: #48 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising (05-20-2013 10:38 AM)Q Wrote: The difference is as follows: Propaganda — Exploiting a known weakness or tendency in someone, or a group of people's psychology. (Proper) Advertising — Offering someone something that they may want, tailored to complement that psychology. It's subtle, but it is there. I will give you an example. (05-21-2013 08:48 PM)pezer Wrote: (05-21-2013 06:06 PM)Q Wrote: Quote: Advertising is sales, and I don't trust a sales system based on the premise that it's fine to make shit up to fit your intended message (in advertising, usually shitty primal ones deemed whatever by the oligarchic order), like it's art. How is it really different than art? Art sells itself. Advertising sells X. This is why I see it as both selling the same thing. [flash(0,0)]http://www.youtube.com/v/suRDUFpsHus[/flash] RE: Advertising Advertising can pull at your heart? No shit! I pointed out the difference. Now I feel you are avoiding an answer you didn't feel comfortable with. Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-22-2013, 06:31 AM Post: #50 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising The show itself is a commercial. Mad Men isn't selling anything other than itself, though. It could all be like that. Seamless. There isn't a difference between art and advertising that I can see. Not in theory. Obviously in demonstrable practice, but I am not talking about that. Search Member List Calendar Help Current time: 08-02-2013, 10:09 AMWelcome back, Fixed Cross. You last visited: Yesterday, 09:40 AM (User CP — Log Out) Open Buddy List New Posts | Today's Posts | View Unread Posts | Private Messages (Unread 0, Total 143) / Overstanding / Health / Advertising Pages (22): « Previous 1 ... 4 5 6 7 8 ... 22 Next » Post Reply Thread Rating: 1 2 3 4 5 Threaded Mode | Linear Mode Advertising 05-22-2013, 10:51 AM Post: #51 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising It seems like unless you are unfunded, all art is just a commercial. When you really look at it like I am trying to. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-22-2013, 11:38 AM Post: #52 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Advertising Listen, I get it. You want art to not be some pointless thing, to have weight. You see advertising as the way to do that. I'm saying that's a trap. Undoubtedly, taking a trap head on is often the best way to approach it, I'm just saying that if you make your weight out of these pre-made societal structures, you are taking on a whole bunch of "lizard kings rolling in the back, how 'bout that?" I'm saying fuck that, let's rebuild. In the end, if you need help for your wacky shit, I will give it. Likewise, maybe you will help me along my more nihilistic path. Difference is the pathos of true evolutionary process. Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-22-2013, 05:11 PM Post: #53 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising Maybe this is one of those 'is Gotham beyond saving' things, but I'm not totally against society. Just the bankers and corporations that are tying to pull a fast one. Plus, when I really think about how to affect large-scale change, it's one of those infiltrate from the inside plans always. I'm just not the nihilistic type. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-22-2013, 06:06 PM Post: #54 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Advertising So what is the approach of your vision to reinterpret advertising? Can it be compatible with non-government? Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-23-2013, 02:01 AM (This post was last modified: 05-23-2013 02:03 AM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #55 ChainOfBeing Offline Probationer Posts: 178 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 4 RE: Advertising There is a huge difference between art, in particular inspired/authentic art or "art pour l'art" and advertising. Advertising wants to manipulate to sell something, to insert lies inside the mind toward some goal that has nothing to do with whatever is good or bad for the victim of the ad. Art rather wants to show and disclose truth, even if this truth is painful or harmful. Often it is not, and even so disclosing suffering and harmful truth through art will lead to mental and emotional uplift and increased self-consciousness. The perspectives and experiences created by art are done from and for the interests of truth, whereas those created by advertising are done not in the interest of truth but in the interest of control. Q, what you may be seeing is the degree of overlap between truth and manipulative control, of course there is some overlap here. But the real spheres of art and advertising are separate, and only intersect a little in the middle, when advertising wants to mimic art to make its control more effective. This is why advertising is no different from propaganda. Advertising is not art, it is propaganda, trying to sell something regardless of what the victim needs or wants. No one forces art at you, or its message, these must be approached actively and openly and with some conscious intention. Not so with advertising, which shoves its message and image upon you rather you want it or not. Art cares about you, and values truth. That is why the art exists at all. What does advertising care about and value? Profit, to control and manipulation to create consumers of products. Q, you want to make advertising more like art in this respect, but you cannot succeed, all you can do is give advertising better tools with which to better mimic art, thus making advertising even more effective and deadly. Further contributing to human's inability to tell the difference for themselves. Abandon all hope, ye who enter here. Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-23-2013, 05:52 AM Post: #56 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising We're all online... Is the type of art you talk about possible anymore? How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-23-2013, 05:53 AM Post: #57 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising Think of it in a Marxian sense. It's all money. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-23-2013, 06:44 AM Post: #58 ChainOfBeing Offline Probationer Posts: 178 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 4 RE: Advertising Surely you are not claiming that real art is not being done anymore. I would not even know how to respond to such an absurd claim. Abandon all hope, ye who enter here. Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-23-2013, 10:33 AM Post: #59 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising Sure it's being done offline in caves maybe. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-23-2013, 10:52 AM (This post was last modified: 05-23-2013 10:52 AM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #60 ChainOfBeing Offline Probationer Posts: 178 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 4 RE: Advertising Today even artists using traditional media like canvas put a lot of their work online. Also people create new digital art, just for the sake of art and not because it is part of any ad campaign. I honestly have no idea what you are trying to say here, it seems Pezer was right that you are just trying to avoid an uncomfortable reality. Abandon all hope, ye who enter here. Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator « Next Oldest | Next Newest » Pages (22): « Previous 1 ... 4 5 6 7 8 ... 22 Next » Post Reply [-] Quick Reply Message Type your reply to this message here. Signature Disable Smilies View a Printable Version Send this Thread to a Friend Subscribe to this thread Forum Jump: User(s) browsing this thread: Fixed Cross* Contact Us | Natural World Order | Return to Top | Return to Content | Mobile Version | RSS Syndication Powered By MyBB, © 2002-2013 MyBB Group. Search Member List Calendar Help Current time: 08-02-2013, 10:09 AMWelcome back, Fixed Cross. You last visited: Yesterday, 09:40 AM (User CP — Log Out) Open Buddy List New Posts | Today's Posts | View Unread Posts | Private Messages (Unread 0, Total 143) / Overstanding / Health / Advertising Pages (22): « Previous 1 ... 5 6 7 8 9 ... 22 Next » Post Reply Thread Rating: 1 2 3 4 5 Threaded Mode | Linear Mode Advertising 05-23-2013, 11:04 AM Post: #61 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising Lol How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-23-2013, 12:42 PM Post: #62 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising What do you guys say to the Marx point? How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-24-2013, 08:51 AM Post: #63 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising Cause it's a pretty old argument. I am not the first one to look at art critically. I'm not the first one to call into question this Dreamboat conception you have of it. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-24-2013, 09:44 AM Post: #64 Fixed Cross Offline Neophyte Posts: 466 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 8 Warning Level: 0% RE: Advertising Dont bitch around, Q has hold of the most vital part of Earthly power... And he wants to humanize it, naturalizr it. Superhymanize, perhaps. All of us already know the power and the downside of that. Q is looking for an upside. There is none' is not a vital answer. Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Edit this post Delete this post Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-24-2013, 12:10 PM Post: #65 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising I have failed to really convey the entirety of this, but it is actually a cynical enough approach for you cynics. I recognize the underlying drives in people (and masses), and I am looking to use it. Let's drop the aesthetics talk and just recognize that for a second. With Netflix, YouTube, and just the net in general, there is a marketing/advertising revolution occurring. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-24-2013, 12:49 PM Post: #66 Fixed Cross Offline Neophyte Posts: 466 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 8 Warning Level: 0% RE: Advertising Let's advertise the future. Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Edit this post Delete this post Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-24-2013, 12:52 PM (This post was last modified: 05-24-2013 12:57 PM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #67 Fixed Cross Offline Neophyte Posts: 466 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 8 Warning Level: 0% RE: Advertising coming soon: THE FUTURE Get tickets NOW at NWO It shouldn't be hard to top that pitch. But it's going to be hard to pitch it so that humanity will attain the state of mind conductive of a future we can approve of. Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Edit this post Delete this post Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-25-2013, 01:18 AM (This post was last modified: 05-25-2013 01:21 AM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #68 ChainOfBeing Offline Probationer Posts: 178 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 4 RE: Advertising This so called great power is the tyrannical manipulation and subvert control that reduces man to a passive consumer, an unthinking zombie. The argument of course can be made that man has already been reduced thusly, and who is to say that even before the advent of advertising that man was not in such an unawakened state? (Of course he was). But, my concern here had been with the telos of this intention to grab this power, to change it, to apply it. Toward what ends do you aim? Merely playing with this power for the sake of play, for the fun of it, represents the lowest kind of aspiration, like that of a child. Intending something "good" only means one has matured slightly if there is a firm understanding of what "good" really means, and of course even if this is the case one is still but a dangerous and ignorant adolescent if one has no real knowledge or skill with how to apply a method to direct and use this power. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, as we know. I was interested to discover the motives behind the aim. More so, too, to discover the source and substance of these motives, and rather they be informed by any means and maturity regardless of their "goodness". One only need look to the Stanford Prison Study to learn mankind's natural inclination to "good will" under having been granted near-absolute power over his brothers. No "natural" will can serve us here, not where the direct, potent and often invisible manipulations of mankind are concerned. Neither will a will to power serve us at this juncture, contrary to what Nietzsche wrote. Nietzsche did not live in an age where the tools and weapons were so easily able to be picked up and wielded by quite literally anybody. What we have now is all out warfare of ideas, control, dogma, brainwashing, but unlike in the past many "uninitiated" masses of men now play the game. As I wrote, they are made to kill each other without any need for a third party. You are so eager to jump into the trenches as get your hands dirty with them? I would rather undermine the system as a whole, I would rather cultivate something worthy of going beyond this merely animal hell, than deceive myself that I can play this game as good or better than those who have been mastering it for the last 80 years. First, I propose we analyze a series of essential questions concerned with refining not only our sight but also out taste, from both directions, if indeed your will is to play the game on their own terms. Like Pezer I am more of an anarchist here, but since you are set on your path, let us try and cull something of greater potential from this path. 1) upon what do you draw when crafting your "improved" ads? 2) what is man's relationship to the ads you create 3) for whom do you work/receive pay in creating ads? 4) do you have mechanisms in place to evaluate the effectiveness of your ads? 5) if yes to 4 above, what are the standards you use to evaluate effectiveness or lack of effectiveness? 6) where do you most realistically see man in 50 years from now, relative to what you think the potential is for your advertising power to contribute toward this future? 7) where do you want to see man in 50 years from now, relative to what you think the potential is for your advertising power to contribute toward this future? Abandon all hope, ye who enter here. Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-25-2013, 06:01 AM Post: #69 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising Quote: Merely playing with this power for the sake of play, for the fun of it, represents the lowest kind of aspiration, like that of a child. FX, tell him. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-25-2013, 06:04 AM (This post was last modified: 05-25-2013 06:07 AM by Q.) Post: #70 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising As for the rest, as I have said, it's not about the content so much as the relevance of the ads. You keep missing my point. It's not about what I am writing. It's about changing the method of distribution so you don't have the situation where people are zombied through ads they don't care about. The stuff I said about wanting to manipulate people's minds, just forget about. It's true, but those are not my aspirations. I, as a culture critic, have come to just see most people as wanting to be manipuated. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator « Next Oldest | Next Newest » Pages (22): « Previous 1 ... 5 6 7 8 9 ... 22 Next » Post Reply [-] Quick Reply Message Type your reply to this message here. Signature Disable Smilies View a Printable Version Send this Thread to a Friend Subscribe to this thread Forum Jump: User(s) browsing this thread: Fixed Cross* Contact Us | Natural World Order | Return to Top | Return to Content | Mobile Version | RSS Syndication Powered By MyBB, © 2002-2013 MyBB Group. RE: Advertising You are not reading what I am writing it seems. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-21-2013, 06:16 AM (This post was last modified: 05-21-2013 06:22 AM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #32 Fixed Cross Offline Neophyte Posts: 466 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 8 Warning Level: 0% RE: Advertising You mean ads as communication, right? Without an agenda. On the one hand I think it's still a vanity project - your self-valuing will always speak a different value than universal benevolence. You'll always be biased and thus antagonizing certain others. Still, if the intention is less consciously specific, you might effect better results, in terms of peoples free choice to either hear you or not. We can bring a degree of freedom to advertising, separate of profi, the techniques of drawing the love of others for the sake of itself - "romancing the stone". Even so it wil be hard to match and top the great campaigns of history - drawn broadly you can see the whole of civilization as a war of advertising campaigns. Statues, columns, incense, naked women talking gibberish, a crucifix, a 20th Century Fox intro, evocations of intuitions, One in so many men always knew how to speak that way, and when he did he was followed. A key to the great campaigns is that they all did carry a rudimentary value to sell, something that could be milked, drawn out over time, emptied to the bottom, exploited. Empires fall when there's nothing new to advertise, no angle to the original power/glory that fed the kingdom its narrative-political sap. Advertise with blood. How thin will your ads stretch reality? Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Edit this post Delete this post Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-21-2013, 06:30 AM Post: #33 Fixed Cross Offline Neophyte Posts: 466 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 8 Warning Level: 0% RE: Advertising Another thought is that between the ad-narratives of history, the conflict and absurd void between, them, that this 'sea of possibilities' can be excavated from its being-as-blurr(between logics) into "Form" ad-fundum. Binah - Ah. Binah is the form that emerges most primordially out of force - instill forms into the nervous system, touch certain 'chords' of electrochemical timing, speak to 'cycles' - perpetuate certain 'happiness' -- and arrow, a goal -- Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Edit this post Delete this post Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-21-2013, 07:44 AM Post: #34 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Advertising Q, if I did understand your meaning, what kind of answer might I write? The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must. - Thucydides see it now? Thunderbolt steers all things. - Heraclitus Fixed Cross Doric Usurper Posts: 6695 Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:53 am ### Re: New Moon Ashes I hope we are past suspecting sarcasm in each other. Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-21-2013, 04:35 PM Post: #35 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising Quote: Even so it will be hard to match and top the great campaigns of history I think that we found ourselves in the realm of selling ideas. Whereas the Bernays stuff was more toward selling things. Which is to say that, yes, communication is advertising. Quote: Without an agenda. No. With an agenda, just a transparent one. For example, when you to go web page... Fundamentally, there isn't a lot of lying going on. You just get told what is up. I know I am not explaining this very well. I will keep trying to do so, though. All I know is I am me, and I know all of you, and this is all based on our past experiences, but I don't see any moral qualm with working in advertising/marketing. Like I said, I think that it will always be around in some way or another. We sell and we buy. That's what we do in some way or another. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-21-2013, 05:32 PM Post: #36 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Advertising Oh, I don't see any moral problem with it either. My problem is stratego-philosophical. That's why I keep using the Meatrix comparison. "Moraly," if you must, Morpheous and Lock are on the same team. Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-21-2013, 06:06 PM Post: #37 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising Quote: Advertising is sales, and I don't trust a sales system based on the premise that it's fine to make shit up to fit your intended message (in advertising, usually shitty primal ones deemed whatever by the oligarchic order), like it's art. How is it really different than art? How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-21-2013, 06:14 PM Post: #38 ChainOfBeing Offline Probationer Posts: 178 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 4 RE: Advertising As Fixed Cross once wrote, it serves to stimulate the feeling that something interesting is going on, rather than give or move one toward any kind of actual real value. Self-valuing is manipulated, much in the same way that religion manipulates it -- co-opted the valuational mechanism and making it serve ends foreign and even self-destructive to it. If the self-valuing values accidentally or only partially, by assuming the standards of others as its own, it breeds in its own destruction. This is the real problem with advertising, it is just another modern form of quasi-religious intoxication and insanity-manipulation. I agree with Q that advertising can and should be made more efficient, if we are speaking from within the modern paradigm itself, for of course this makes good sense. But seeing the whole picture, all you are doing is helping the system refine its tools, sharpen its fangs, and put even heavier locks on the doors of the self. The world wants to imprison you. This is what the world "is", no "conspiracies" needed. Take religion, politics, economics, morality, advertising, you name it. Various systems used to breed various kinds of human beings. Just because your intention is to remove some impurities and excesses of one of these system does not mean your aim is in any way ethical or good, or is not merely assisting the behemoth in its task to devour you whole. Remember, if it doesn't need to chew quite so much, it's that much less effort it needs to bother with. Someone once said that true propaganda slips in without any resistance. And you have not yet defined what you consider to be the distinction between propaganda and advertising. You seem to be clearly against the one, clearly in favor of the other (your idea of it) so where do you draw the difference? Advertising for Coca-Cola has probably killed more humans on this planet than any conflict or war in human history, and probably generated more concentrated wealth than any great colonization and spoils of war. Abandon all hope, ye who enter here. Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-21-2013, 06:17 PM Post: #39 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising In the ideal, I mean. It seems like being on the internet and advertising is the same thing in a manner of speaking. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-21-2013, 06:18 PM Post: #40 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising Quote: Someone once said that true propaganda slips in without any resistance. I am saying: let's make this a good thing. RE: Advertising Quote: And you have not yet defined what you consider to be the distinction between propaganda and advertising. I thought I explained this. (05-20-2013 10:38 AM)Q Wrote: The difference is as follows: Propaganda — Exploiting a known weakness or tendency in someone, or a group of people's psychology. (Proper) Advertising — Offering someone something that they may want, tailored to complement that psychology. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-21-2013, 06:21 PM Post: #42 ChainOfBeing Offline Probationer Posts: 178 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 4 RE: Advertising I asked you earlier here toward what end/s you aim, and you replied, "Just for the sake of doing it." What makes you think you are in any way qualified to decide what "good" is to be served here? Abandon all hope, ye who enter here. Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-21-2013, 06:28 PM Post: #43 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising Why is art made, though? Just for the sake of doing it. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-21-2013, 08:48 PM Post: #44 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Advertising (05-21-2013 06:06 PM)Q Wrote: Quote: Advertising is sales, and I don't trust a sales system based on the premise that it's fine to make shit up to fit your intended message (in advertising, usually shitty primal ones deemed whatever by the oligarchic order), like it's art. How is it really different than art? Art sells itself. Advertising sells X. Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-21-2013, 08:49 PM Post: #45 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Advertising And X = Oligarchic Power Interests in the most brutal way. Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-21-2013, 08:50 PM (This post was last modified: 05-21-2013 08:51 PM by pezer.) Post: #46 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Advertising Much art is sneaky advertising, and that is what perhaps is known as propaganda. (Interesting fact, propaganda is the word for simple advertising in Spanish, the term propaganda política being used for what the simple word is used by gringos.) Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-21-2013, 08:55 PM (This post was last modified: 05-21-2013 08:57 PM by pezer.) Post: #47 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Advertising Propaganda comes from the verb propagar, -anda is like a kind of "of the." Propagar means to disseminate, pro- determinign action, movement, and pagar meaning to pay, to give something of value in exchange. Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-22-2013, 01:26 AM Post: #48 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising (05-20-2013 10:38 AM)Q Wrote: The difference is as follows: Propaganda — Exploiting a known weakness or tendency in someone, or a group of people's psychology. (Proper) Advertising — Offering someone something that they may want, tailored to complement that psychology. It's subtle, but it is there. I will give you an example. (05-21-2013 08:48 PM)pezer Wrote: (05-21-2013 06:06 PM)Q Wrote: Quote: Advertising is sales, and I don't trust a sales system based on the premise that it's fine to make shit up to fit your intended message (in advertising, usually shitty primal ones deemed whatever by the oligarchic order), like it's art. How is it really different than art? Art sells itself. Advertising sells X. This is why I see it as both selling the same thing. [flash(0,0)]http://www.youtube.com/v/suRDUFpsHus[/flash] RE: Advertising Advertising can pull at your heart? No shit! I pointed out the difference. Now I feel you are avoiding an answer you didn't feel comfortable with. Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-22-2013, 06:31 AM Post: #50 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising The show itself is a commercial. Mad Men isn't selling anything other than itself, though. It could all be like that. Seamless. There isn't a difference between art and advertising that I can see. Not in theory. Obviously in demonstrable practice, but I am not talking about that. Search Member List Calendar Help Current time: 08-02-2013, 10:09 AMWelcome back, Fixed Cross. You last visited: Yesterday, 09:40 AM (User CP — Log Out) Open Buddy List New Posts | Today's Posts | View Unread Posts | Private Messages (Unread 0, Total 143) / Overstanding / Health / Advertising Pages (22): « Previous 1 ... 4 5 6 7 8 ... 22 Next » Post Reply Thread Rating: 1 2 3 4 5 Threaded Mode | Linear Mode Advertising 05-22-2013, 10:51 AM Post: #51 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising It seems like unless you are unfunded, all art is just a commercial. When you really look at it like I am trying to. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-22-2013, 11:38 AM Post: #52 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Advertising Listen, I get it. You want art to not be some pointless thing, to have weight. You see advertising as the way to do that. I'm saying that's a trap. Undoubtedly, taking a trap head on is often the best way to approach it, I'm just saying that if you make your weight out of these pre-made societal structures, you are taking on a whole bunch of "lizard kings rolling in the back, how 'bout that?" I'm saying fuck that, let's rebuild. In the end, if you need help for your wacky shit, I will give it. Likewise, maybe you will help me along my more nihilistic path. Difference is the pathos of true evolutionary process. Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-22-2013, 05:11 PM Post: #53 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising Maybe this is one of those 'is Gotham beyond saving' things, but I'm not totally against society. Just the bankers and corporations that are tying to pull a fast one. Plus, when I really think about how to affect large-scale change, it's one of those infiltrate from the inside plans always. I'm just not the nihilistic type. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-22-2013, 06:06 PM Post: #54 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Advertising So what is the approach of your vision to reinterpret advertising? Can it be compatible with non-government? Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-23-2013, 02:01 AM (This post was last modified: 05-23-2013 02:03 AM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #55 ChainOfBeing Offline Probationer Posts: 178 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 4 RE: Advertising There is a huge difference between art, in particular inspired/authentic art or "art pour l'art" and advertising. Advertising wants to manipulate to sell something, to insert lies inside the mind toward some goal that has nothing to do with whatever is good or bad for the victim of the ad. Art rather wants to show and disclose truth, even if this truth is painful or harmful. Often it is not, and even so disclosing suffering and harmful truth through art will lead to mental and emotional uplift and increased self-consciousness. The perspectives and experiences created by art are done from and for the interests of truth, whereas those created by advertising are done not in the interest of truth but in the interest of control. Q, what you may be seeing is the degree of overlap between truth and manipulative control, of course there is some overlap here. But the real spheres of art and advertising are separate, and only intersect a little in the middle, when advertising wants to mimic art to make its control more effective. This is why advertising is no different from propaganda. Advertising is not art, it is propaganda, trying to sell something regardless of what the victim needs or wants. No one forces art at you, or its message, these must be approached actively and openly and with some conscious intention. Not so with advertising, which shoves its message and image upon you rather you want it or not. Art cares about you, and values truth. That is why the art exists at all. What does advertising care about and value? Profit, to control and manipulation to create consumers of products. Q, you want to make advertising more like art in this respect, but you cannot succeed, all you can do is give advertising better tools with which to better mimic art, thus making advertising even more effective and deadly. Further contributing to human's inability to tell the difference for themselves. Abandon all hope, ye who enter here. Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-23-2013, 05:52 AM Post: #56 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising We're all online... Is the type of art you talk about possible anymore? How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-23-2013, 05:53 AM Post: #57 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising Think of it in a Marxian sense. It's all money. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-23-2013, 06:44 AM Post: #58 ChainOfBeing Offline Probationer Posts: 178 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 4 RE: Advertising Surely you are not claiming that real art is not being done anymore. I would not even know how to respond to such an absurd claim. Abandon all hope, ye who enter here. Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-23-2013, 10:33 AM Post: #59 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising Sure it's being done offline in caves maybe. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-23-2013, 10:52 AM (This post was last modified: 05-23-2013 10:52 AM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #60 ChainOfBeing Offline Probationer Posts: 178 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 4 RE: Advertising Today even artists using traditional media like canvas put a lot of their work online. Also people create new digital art, just for the sake of art and not because it is part of any ad campaign. I honestly have no idea what you are trying to say here, it seems Pezer was right that you are just trying to avoid an uncomfortable reality. Abandon all hope, ye who enter here. Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator « Next Oldest | Next Newest » Pages (22): « Previous 1 ... 4 5 6 7 8 ... 22 Next » Post Reply [-] Quick Reply Message Type your reply to this message here. Signature Disable Smilies View a Printable Version Send this Thread to a Friend Subscribe to this thread Forum Jump: User(s) browsing this thread: Fixed Cross* Contact Us | Natural World Order | Return to Top | Return to Content | Mobile Version | RSS Syndication Powered By MyBB, © 2002-2013 MyBB Group. Search Member List Calendar Help Current time: 08-02-2013, 10:09 AMWelcome back, Fixed Cross. You last visited: Yesterday, 09:40 AM (User CP — Log Out) Open Buddy List New Posts | Today's Posts | View Unread Posts | Private Messages (Unread 0, Total 143) / Overstanding / Health / Advertising Pages (22): « Previous 1 ... 5 6 7 8 9 ... 22 Next » Post Reply Thread Rating: 1 2 3 4 5 Threaded Mode | Linear Mode Advertising 05-23-2013, 11:04 AM Post: #61 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising Lol How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-23-2013, 12:42 PM Post: #62 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising What do you guys say to the Marx point? How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-24-2013, 08:51 AM Post: #63 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising Cause it's a pretty old argument. I am not the first one to look at art critically. I'm not the first one to call into question this Dreamboat conception you have of it. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-24-2013, 09:44 AM Post: #64 Fixed Cross Offline Neophyte Posts: 466 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 8 Warning Level: 0% RE: Advertising Dont bitch around, Q has hold of the most vital part of Earthly power... And he wants to humanize it, naturalizr it. Superhymanize, perhaps. All of us already know the power and the downside of that. Q is looking for an upside. There is none' is not a vital answer. Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Edit this post Delete this post Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-24-2013, 12:10 PM Post: #65 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising I have failed to really convey the entirety of this, but it is actually a cynical enough approach for you cynics. I recognize the underlying drives in people (and masses), and I am looking to use it. Let's drop the aesthetics talk and just recognize that for a second. With Netflix, YouTube, and just the net in general, there is a marketing/advertising revolution occurring. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-24-2013, 12:49 PM Post: #66 Fixed Cross Offline Neophyte Posts: 466 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 8 Warning Level: 0% RE: Advertising Let's advertise the future. Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Edit this post Delete this post Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-24-2013, 12:52 PM (This post was last modified: 05-24-2013 12:57 PM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #67 Fixed Cross Offline Neophyte Posts: 466 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 8 Warning Level: 0% RE: Advertising coming soon: THE FUTURE Get tickets NOW at NWO It shouldn't be hard to top that pitch. But it's going to be hard to pitch it so that humanity will attain the state of mind conductive of a future we can approve of. Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Edit this post Delete this post Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-25-2013, 01:18 AM (This post was last modified: 05-25-2013 01:21 AM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #68 ChainOfBeing Offline Probationer Posts: 178 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 4 RE: Advertising This so called great power is the tyrannical manipulation and subvert control that reduces man to a passive consumer, an unthinking zombie. The argument of course can be made that man has already been reduced thusly, and who is to say that even before the advent of advertising that man was not in such an unawakened state? (Of course he was). But, my concern here had been with the telos of this intention to grab this power, to change it, to apply it. Toward what ends do you aim? Merely playing with this power for the sake of play, for the fun of it, represents the lowest kind of aspiration, like that of a child. Intending something "good" only means one has matured slightly if there is a firm understanding of what "good" really means, and of course even if this is the case one is still but a dangerous and ignorant adolescent if one has no real knowledge or skill with how to apply a method to direct and use this power. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, as we know. I was interested to discover the motives behind the aim. More so, too, to discover the source and substance of these motives, and rather they be informed by any means and maturity regardless of their "goodness". One only need look to the Stanford Prison Study to learn mankind's natural inclination to "good will" under having been granted near-absolute power over his brothers. No "natural" will can serve us here, not where the direct, potent and often invisible manipulations of mankind are concerned. Neither will a will to power serve us at this juncture, contrary to what Nietzsche wrote. Nietzsche did not live in an age where the tools and weapons were so easily able to be picked up and wielded by quite literally anybody. What we have now is all out warfare of ideas, control, dogma, brainwashing, but unlike in the past many "uninitiated" masses of men now play the game. As I wrote, they are made to kill each other without any need for a third party. You are so eager to jump into the trenches as get your hands dirty with them? I would rather undermine the system as a whole, I would rather cultivate something worthy of going beyond this merely animal hell, than deceive myself that I can play this game as good or better than those who have been mastering it for the last 80 years. First, I propose we analyze a series of essential questions concerned with refining not only our sight but also out taste, from both directions, if indeed your will is to play the game on their own terms. Like Pezer I am more of an anarchist here, but since you are set on your path, let us try and cull something of greater potential from this path. 1) upon what do you draw when crafting your "improved" ads? 2) what is man's relationship to the ads you create 3) for whom do you work/receive pay in creating ads? 4) do you have mechanisms in place to evaluate the effectiveness of your ads? 5) if yes to 4 above, what are the standards you use to evaluate effectiveness or lack of effectiveness? 6) where do you most realistically see man in 50 years from now, relative to what you think the potential is for your advertising power to contribute toward this future? 7) where do you want to see man in 50 years from now, relative to what you think the potential is for your advertising power to contribute toward this future? Abandon all hope, ye who enter here. Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-25-2013, 06:01 AM Post: #69 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising Quote: Merely playing with this power for the sake of play, for the fun of it, represents the lowest kind of aspiration, like that of a child. FX, tell him. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-25-2013, 06:04 AM (This post was last modified: 05-25-2013 06:07 AM by Q.) Post: #70 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising As for the rest, as I have said, it's not about the content so much as the relevance of the ads. You keep missing my point. It's not about what I am writing. It's about changing the method of distribution so you don't have the situation where people are zombied through ads they don't care about. The stuff I said about wanting to manipulate people's minds, just forget about. It's true, but those are not my aspirations. I, as a culture critic, have come to just see most people as wanting to be manipuated. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator « Next Oldest | Next Newest » Pages (22): « Previous 1 ... 5 6 7 8 9 ... 22 Next » Post Reply [-] Quick Reply Message Type your reply to this message here. Signature Disable Smilies View a Printable Version Send this Thread to a Friend Subscribe to this thread Forum Jump: User(s) browsing this thread: Fixed Cross* Contact Us | Natural World Order | Return to Top | Return to Content | Mobile Version | RSS Syndication Powered By MyBB, © 2002-2013 MyBB Group. The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must. - Thucydides see it now? Thunderbolt steers all things. - Heraclitus Fixed Cross Doric Usurper Posts: 6695 Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:53 am ### Re: New Moon Ashes RE: Advertising You are not reading what I am writing it seems. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-21-2013, 06:16 AM (This post was last modified: 05-21-2013 06:22 AM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #32 Fixed Cross Offline Neophyte Posts: 466 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 8 Warning Level: 0% RE: Advertising You mean ads as communication, right? Without an agenda. On the one hand I think it's still a vanity project - your self-valuing will always speak a different value than universal benevolence. You'll always be biased and thus antagonizing certain others. Still, if the intention is less consciously specific, you might effect better results, in terms of peoples free choice to either hear you or not. We can bring a degree of freedom to advertising, separate of profi, the techniques of drawing the love of others for the sake of itself - "romancing the stone". Even so it wil be hard to match and top the great campaigns of history - drawn broadly you can see the whole of civilization as a war of advertising campaigns. Statues, columns, incense, naked women talking gibberish, a crucifix, a 20th Century Fox intro, evocations of intuitions, One in so many men always knew how to speak that way, and when he did he was followed. A key to the great campaigns is that they all did carry a rudimentary value to sell, something that could be milked, drawn out over time, emptied to the bottom, exploited. Empires fall when there's nothing new to advertise, no angle to the original power/glory that fed the kingdom its narrative-political sap. Advertise with blood. How thin will your ads stretch reality? Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Edit this post Delete this post Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-21-2013, 06:30 AM Post: #33 Fixed Cross Offline Neophyte Posts: 466 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 8 Warning Level: 0% RE: Advertising Another thought is that between the ad-narratives of history, the conflict and absurd void between, them, that this 'sea of possibilities' can be excavated from its being-as-blurr(between logics) into "Form" ad-fundum. Binah - Ah. Binah is the form that emerges most primordially out of force - instill forms into the nervous system, touch certain 'chords' of electrochemical timing, speak to 'cycles' - perpetuate certain 'happiness' -- and arrow, a goal -- Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Edit this post Delete this post Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-21-2013, 07:44 AM Post: #34 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Advertising Q, if I did understand your meaning, what kind of answer might I write? I hope we are past suspecting sarcasm in each other. Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-21-2013, 04:35 PM Post: #35 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising Quote: Even so it will be hard to match and top the great campaigns of history I think that we found ourselves in the realm of selling ideas. Whereas the Bernays stuff was more toward selling things. Which is to say that, yes, communication is advertising. Quote: Without an agenda. No. With an agenda, just a transparent one. For example, when you to go web page... Fundamentally, there isn't a lot of lying going on. You just get told what is up. I know I am not explaining this very well. I will keep trying to do so, though. All I know is I am me, and I know all of you, and this is all based on our past experiences, but I don't see any moral qualm with working in advertising/marketing. Like I said, I think that it will always be around in some way or another. We sell and we buy. That's what we do in some way or another. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-21-2013, 05:32 PM Post: #36 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Advertising Oh, I don't see any moral problem with it either. My problem is stratego-philosophical. That's why I keep using the Meatrix comparison. "Moraly," if you must, Morpheous and Lock are on the same team. Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-21-2013, 06:06 PM Post: #37 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising Quote: Advertising is sales, and I don't trust a sales system based on the premise that it's fine to make shit up to fit your intended message (in advertising, usually shitty primal ones deemed whatever by the oligarchic order), like it's art. How is it really different than art? How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-21-2013, 06:14 PM Post: #38 ChainOfBeing Offline Probationer Posts: 178 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 4 RE: Advertising As Fixed Cross once wrote, it serves to stimulate the feeling that something interesting is going on, rather than give or move one toward any kind of actual real value. Self-valuing is manipulated, much in the same way that religion manipulates it -- co-opted the valuational mechanism and making it serve ends foreign and even self-destructive to it. If the self-valuing values accidentally or only partially, by assuming the standards of others as its own, it breeds in its own destruction. This is the real problem with advertising, it is just another modern form of quasi-religious intoxication and insanity-manipulation. I agree with Q that advertising can and should be made more efficient, if we are speaking from within the modern paradigm itself, for of course this makes good sense. But seeing the whole picture, all you are doing is helping the system refine its tools, sharpen its fangs, and put even heavier locks on the doors of the self. The world wants to imprison you. This is what the world "is", no "conspiracies" needed. Take religion, politics, economics, morality, advertising, you name it. Various systems used to breed various kinds of human beings. Just because your intention is to remove some impurities and excesses of one of these system does not mean your aim is in any way ethical or good, or is not merely assisting the behemoth in its task to devour you whole. Remember, if it doesn't need to chew quite so much, it's that much less effort it needs to bother with. Someone once said that true propaganda slips in without any resistance. And you have not yet defined what you consider to be the distinction between propaganda and advertising. You seem to be clearly against the one, clearly in favor of the other (your idea of it) so where do you draw the difference? Advertising for Coca-Cola has probably killed more humans on this planet than any conflict or war in human history, and probably generated more concentrated wealth than any great colonization and spoils of war. Abandon all hope, ye who enter here. Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-21-2013, 06:17 PM Post: #39 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising In the ideal, I mean. It seems like being on the internet and advertising is the same thing in a manner of speaking. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-21-2013, 06:18 PM Post: #40 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising Quote: Someone once said that true propaganda slips in without any resistance. I am saying: let's make this a good thing. RE: Advertising Quote: And you have not yet defined what you consider to be the distinction between propaganda and advertising. I thought I explained this. (05-20-2013 10:38 AM)Q Wrote: The difference is as follows: Propaganda — Exploiting a known weakness or tendency in someone, or a group of people's psychology. (Proper) Advertising — Offering someone something that they may want, tailored to complement that psychology. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-21-2013, 06:21 PM Post: #42 ChainOfBeing Offline Probationer Posts: 178 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 4 RE: Advertising I asked you earlier here toward what end/s you aim, and you replied, "Just for the sake of doing it." What makes you think you are in any way qualified to decide what "good" is to be served here? Abandon all hope, ye who enter here. Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-21-2013, 06:28 PM Post: #43 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising Why is art made, though? Just for the sake of doing it. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-21-2013, 08:48 PM Post: #44 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Advertising (05-21-2013 06:06 PM)Q Wrote: Quote: Advertising is sales, and I don't trust a sales system based on the premise that it's fine to make shit up to fit your intended message (in advertising, usually shitty primal ones deemed whatever by the oligarchic order), like it's art. How is it really different than art? Art sells itself. Advertising sells X. Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-21-2013, 08:49 PM Post: #45 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Advertising And X = Oligarchic Power Interests in the most brutal way. Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-21-2013, 08:50 PM (This post was last modified: 05-21-2013 08:51 PM by pezer.) Post: #46 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Advertising Much art is sneaky advertising, and that is what perhaps is known as propaganda. (Interesting fact, propaganda is the word for simple advertising in Spanish, the term propaganda política being used for what the simple word is used by gringos.) Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-21-2013, 08:55 PM (This post was last modified: 05-21-2013 08:57 PM by pezer.) Post: #47 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Advertising Propaganda comes from the verb propagar, -anda is like a kind of "of the." Propagar means to disseminate, pro- determinign action, movement, and pagar meaning to pay, to give something of value in exchange. Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-22-2013, 01:26 AM Post: #48 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising (05-20-2013 10:38 AM)Q Wrote: The difference is as follows: Propaganda — Exploiting a known weakness or tendency in someone, or a group of people's psychology. (Proper) Advertising — Offering someone something that they may want, tailored to complement that psychology. It's subtle, but it is there. I will give you an example. (05-21-2013 08:48 PM)pezer Wrote: (05-21-2013 06:06 PM)Q Wrote: Quote: Advertising is sales, and I don't trust a sales system based on the premise that it's fine to make shit up to fit your intended message (in advertising, usually shitty primal ones deemed whatever by the oligarchic order), like it's art. How is it really different than art? Art sells itself. Advertising sells X. This is why I see it as both selling the same thing. [flash(0,0)]http://www.youtube.com/v/suRDUFpsHus[/flash] RE: Advertising Advertising can pull at your heart? No shit! I pointed out the difference. Now I feel you are avoiding an answer you didn't feel comfortable with. Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-22-2013, 06:31 AM Post: #50 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising The show itself is a commercial. Mad Men isn't selling anything other than itself, though. It could all be like that. Seamless. There isn't a difference between art and advertising that I can see. Not in theory. Obviously in demonstrable practice, but I am not talking about that. Search Member List Calendar Help Current time: 08-02-2013, 10:09 AMWelcome back, Fixed Cross. You last visited: Yesterday, 09:40 AM (User CP — Log Out) Open Buddy List New Posts | Today's Posts | View Unread Posts | Private Messages (Unread 0, Total 143) / Overstanding / Health / Advertising Pages (22): « Previous 1 ... 4 5 6 7 8 ... 22 Next » Post Reply Thread Rating: 1 2 3 4 5 Threaded Mode | Linear Mode Advertising 05-22-2013, 10:51 AM Post: #51 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising It seems like unless you are unfunded, all art is just a commercial. When you really look at it like I am trying to. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-22-2013, 11:38 AM Post: #52 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Advertising Listen, I get it. You want art to not be some pointless thing, to have weight. You see advertising as the way to do that. I'm saying that's a trap. Undoubtedly, taking a trap head on is often the best way to approach it, I'm just saying that if you make your weight out of these pre-made societal structures, you are taking on a whole bunch of "lizard kings rolling in the back, how 'bout that?" I'm saying fuck that, let's rebuild. In the end, if you need help for your wacky shit, I will give it. Likewise, maybe you will help me along my more nihilistic path. Difference is the pathos of true evolutionary process. Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-22-2013, 05:11 PM Post: #53 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising Maybe this is one of those 'is Gotham beyond saving' things, but I'm not totally against society. Just the bankers and corporations that are tying to pull a fast one. Plus, when I really think about how to affect large-scale change, it's one of those infiltrate from the inside plans always. I'm just not the nihilistic type. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-22-2013, 06:06 PM Post: #54 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Advertising So what is the approach of your vision to reinterpret advertising? Can it be compatible with non-government? Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-23-2013, 02:01 AM (This post was last modified: 05-23-2013 02:03 AM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #55 ChainOfBeing Offline Probationer Posts: 178 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 4 RE: Advertising There is a huge difference between art, in particular inspired/authentic art or "art pour l'art" and advertising. Advertising wants to manipulate to sell something, to insert lies inside the mind toward some goal that has nothing to do with whatever is good or bad for the victim of the ad. Art rather wants to show and disclose truth, even if this truth is painful or harmful. Often it is not, and even so disclosing suffering and harmful truth through art will lead to mental and emotional uplift and increased self-consciousness. The perspectives and experiences created by art are done from and for the interests of truth, whereas those created by advertising are done not in the interest of truth but in the interest of control. Q, what you may be seeing is the degree of overlap between truth and manipulative control, of course there is some overlap here. But the real spheres of art and advertising are separate, and only intersect a little in the middle, when advertising wants to mimic art to make its control more effective. This is why advertising is no different from propaganda. Advertising is not art, it is propaganda, trying to sell something regardless of what the victim needs or wants. No one forces art at you, or its message, these must be approached actively and openly and with some conscious intention. Not so with advertising, which shoves its message and image upon you rather you want it or not. Art cares about you, and values truth. That is why the art exists at all. What does advertising care about and value? Profit, to control and manipulation to create consumers of products. Q, you want to make advertising more like art in this respect, but you cannot succeed, all you can do is give advertising better tools with which to better mimic art, thus making advertising even more effective and deadly. Further contributing to human's inability to tell the difference for themselves. Abandon all hope, ye who enter here. Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-23-2013, 05:52 AM Post: #56 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising We're all online... Is the type of art you talk about possible anymore? How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-23-2013, 05:53 AM Post: #57 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising Think of it in a Marxian sense. It's all money. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-23-2013, 06:44 AM Post: #58 ChainOfBeing Offline Probationer Posts: 178 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 4 RE: Advertising Surely you are not claiming that real art is not being done anymore. I would not even know how to respond to such an absurd claim. Abandon all hope, ye who enter here. Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-23-2013, 10:33 AM Post: #59 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising Sure it's being done offline in caves maybe. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-23-2013, 10:52 AM (This post was last modified: 05-23-2013 10:52 AM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #60 ChainOfBeing Offline Probationer Posts: 178 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 4 RE: Advertising Today even artists using traditional media like canvas put a lot of their work online. Also people create new digital art, just for the sake of art and not because it is part of any ad campaign. I honestly have no idea what you are trying to say here, it seems Pezer was right that you are just trying to avoid an uncomfortable reality. Abandon all hope, ye who enter here. Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator « Next Oldest | Next Newest » Pages (22): « Previous 1 ... 4 5 6 7 8 ... 22 Next » Post Reply [-] Quick Reply Message Type your reply to this message here. Signature Disable Smilies View a Printable Version Send this Thread to a Friend Subscribe to this thread Forum Jump: User(s) browsing this thread: Fixed Cross* Contact Us | Natural World Order | Return to Top | Return to Content | Mobile Version | RSS Syndication Powered By MyBB, © 2002-2013 MyBB Group. Search Member List Calendar Help Current time: 08-02-2013, 10:09 AMWelcome back, Fixed Cross. You last visited: Yesterday, 09:40 AM (User CP — Log Out) Open Buddy List New Posts | Today's Posts | View Unread Posts | Private Messages (Unread 0, Total 143) / Overstanding / Health / Advertising Pages (22): « Previous 1 ... 5 6 7 8 9 ... 22 Next » Post Reply Thread Rating: 1 2 3 4 5 Threaded Mode | Linear Mode Advertising 05-23-2013, 11:04 AM Post: #61 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising Lol How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-23-2013, 12:42 PM Post: #62 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising What do you guys say to the Marx point? How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-24-2013, 08:51 AM Post: #63 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising Cause it's a pretty old argument. I am not the first one to look at art critically. I'm not the first one to call into question this Dreamboat conception you have of it. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-24-2013, 09:44 AM Post: #64 Fixed Cross Offline Neophyte Posts: 466 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 8 Warning Level: 0% RE: Advertising Dont bitch around, Q has hold of the most vital part of Earthly power... And he wants to humanize it, naturalizr it. Superhymanize, perhaps. All of us already know the power and the downside of that. Q is looking for an upside. There is none' is not a vital answer. Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Edit this post Delete this post Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-24-2013, 12:10 PM Post: #65 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising I have failed to really convey the entirety of this, but it is actually a cynical enough approach for you cynics. I recognize the underlying drives in people (and masses), and I am looking to use it. Let's drop the aesthetics talk and just recognize that for a second. With Netflix, YouTube, and just the net in general, there is a marketing/advertising revolution occurring. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-24-2013, 12:49 PM Post: #66 Fixed Cross Offline Neophyte Posts: 466 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 8 Warning Level: 0% RE: Advertising Let's advertise the future. Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Edit this post Delete this post Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-24-2013, 12:52 PM (This post was last modified: 05-24-2013 12:57 PM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #67 Fixed Cross Offline Neophyte Posts: 466 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 8 Warning Level: 0% RE: Advertising coming soon: THE FUTURE Get tickets NOW at NWO It shouldn't be hard to top that pitch. But it's going to be hard to pitch it so that humanity will attain the state of mind conductive of a future we can approve of. Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Edit this post Delete this post Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-25-2013, 01:18 AM (This post was last modified: 05-25-2013 01:21 AM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #68 ChainOfBeing Offline Probationer Posts: 178 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 4 RE: Advertising This so called great power is the tyrannical manipulation and subvert control that reduces man to a passive consumer, an unthinking zombie. The argument of course can be made that man has already been reduced thusly, and who is to say that even before the advent of advertising that man was not in such an unawakened state? (Of course he was). But, my concern here had been with the telos of this intention to grab this power, to change it, to apply it. Toward what ends do you aim? Merely playing with this power for the sake of play, for the fun of it, represents the lowest kind of aspiration, like that of a child. Intending something "good" only means one has matured slightly if there is a firm understanding of what "good" really means, and of course even if this is the case one is still but a dangerous and ignorant adolescent if one has no real knowledge or skill with how to apply a method to direct and use this power. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, as we know. I was interested to discover the motives behind the aim. More so, too, to discover the source and substance of these motives, and rather they be informed by any means and maturity regardless of their "goodness". One only need look to the Stanford Prison Study to learn mankind's natural inclination to "good will" under having been granted near-absolute power over his brothers. No "natural" will can serve us here, not where the direct, potent and often invisible manipulations of mankind are concerned. Neither will a will to power serve us at this juncture, contrary to what Nietzsche wrote. Nietzsche did not live in an age where the tools and weapons were so easily able to be picked up and wielded by quite literally anybody. What we have now is all out warfare of ideas, control, dogma, brainwashing, but unlike in the past many "uninitiated" masses of men now play the game. As I wrote, they are made to kill each other without any need for a third party. You are so eager to jump into the trenches as get your hands dirty with them? I would rather undermine the system as a whole, I would rather cultivate something worthy of going beyond this merely animal hell, than deceive myself that I can play this game as good or better than those who have been mastering it for the last 80 years. First, I propose we analyze a series of essential questions concerned with refining not only our sight but also out taste, from both directions, if indeed your will is to play the game on their own terms. Like Pezer I am more of an anarchist here, but since you are set on your path, let us try and cull something of greater potential from this path. 1) upon what do you draw when crafting your "improved" ads? 2) what is man's relationship to the ads you create 3) for whom do you work/receive pay in creating ads? 4) do you have mechanisms in place to evaluate the effectiveness of your ads? 5) if yes to 4 above, what are the standards you use to evaluate effectiveness or lack of effectiveness? 6) where do you most realistically see man in 50 years from now, relative to what you think the potential is for your advertising power to contribute toward this future? 7) where do you want to see man in 50 years from now, relative to what you think the potential is for your advertising power to contribute toward this future? Abandon all hope, ye who enter here. Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-25-2013, 06:01 AM Post: #69 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising Quote: Merely playing with this power for the sake of play, for the fun of it, represents the lowest kind of aspiration, like that of a child. FX, tell him. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-25-2013, 06:04 AM (This post was last modified: 05-25-2013 06:07 AM by Q.) Post: #70 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising As for the rest, as I have said, it's not about the content so much as the relevance of the ads. You keep missing my point. It's not about what I am writing. It's about changing the method of distribution so you don't have the situation where people are zombied through ads they don't care about. The stuff I said about wanting to manipulate people's minds, just forget about. It's true, but those are not my aspirations. I, as a culture critic, have come to just see most people as wanting to be manipuated. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator « Next Oldest | Next Newest » Pages (22): « Previous 1 ... 5 6 7 8 9 ... 22 Next » Post Reply [-] Quick Reply Message Type your reply to this message here. Signature Disable Smilies View a Printable Version Send this Thread to a Friend Subscribe to this thread Forum Jump: User(s) browsing this thread: Fixed Cross* Contact Us | Natural World Order | Return to Top | Return to Content | Mobile Version | RSS Syndication Powered By MyBB, © 2002-2013 MyBB Group. RE: Advertising You are not reading what I am writing it seems. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-21-2013, 06:16 AM (This post was last modified: 05-21-2013 06:22 AM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #32 Fixed Cross Offline Neophyte Posts: 466 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 8 Warning Level: 0% RE: Advertising You mean ads as communication, right? Without an agenda. On the one hand I think it's still a vanity project - your self-valuing will always speak a different value than universal benevolence. You'll always be biased and thus antagonizing certain others. Still, if the intention is less consciously specific, you might effect better results, in terms of peoples free choice to either hear you or not. We can bring a degree of freedom to advertising, separate of profi, the techniques of drawing the love of others for the sake of itself - "romancing the stone". Even so it wil be hard to match and top the great campaigns of history - drawn broadly you can see the whole of civilization as a war of advertising campaigns. Statues, columns, incense, naked women talking gibberish, a crucifix, a 20th Century Fox intro, evocations of intuitions, One in so many men always knew how to speak that way, and when he did he was followed. A key to the great campaigns is that they all did carry a rudimentary value to sell, something that could be milked, drawn out over time, emptied to the bottom, exploited. Empires fall when there's nothing new to advertise, no angle to the original power/glory that fed the kingdom its narrative-political sap. Advertise with blood. How thin will your ads stretch reality? Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Edit this post Delete this post Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-21-2013, 06:30 AM Post: #33 Fixed Cross Offline Neophyte Posts: 466 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 8 Warning Level: 0% RE: Advertising Another thought is that between the ad-narratives of history, the conflict and absurd void between, them, that this 'sea of possibilities' can be excavated from its being-as-blurr(between logics) into "Form" ad-fundum. Binah - Ah. Binah is the form that emerges most primordially out of force - instill forms into the nervous system, touch certain 'chords' of electrochemical timing, speak to 'cycles' - perpetuate certain 'happiness' -- and arrow, a goal -- Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Edit this post Delete this post Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-21-2013, 07:44 AM Post: #34 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Advertising Q, if I did understand your meaning, what kind of answer might I write? I hope we are past suspecting sarcasm in each other. Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-21-2013, 04:35 PM Post: #35 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising Quote: Even so it will be hard to match and top the great campaigns of history I think that we found ourselves in the realm of selling ideas. Whereas the Bernays stuff was more toward selling things. Which is to say that, yes, communication is advertising. Quote: Without an agenda. No. With an agenda, just a transparent one. For example, when you to go web page... Fundamentally, there isn't a lot of lying going on. You just get told what is up. I know I am not explaining this very well. I will keep trying to do so, though. All I know is I am me, and I know all of you, and this is all based on our past experiences, but I don't see any moral qualm with working in advertising/marketing. Like I said, I think that it will always be around in some way or another. We sell and we buy. That's what we do in some way or another. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-21-2013, 05:32 PM Post: #36 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Advertising Oh, I don't see any moral problem with it either. My problem is stratego-philosophical. That's why I keep using the Meatrix comparison. "Moraly," if you must, Morpheous and Lock are on the same team. Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-21-2013, 06:06 PM Post: #37 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising Quote: Advertising is sales, and I don't trust a sales system based on the premise that it's fine to make shit up to fit your intended message (in advertising, usually shitty primal ones deemed whatever by the oligarchic order), like it's art. How is it really different than art? How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-21-2013, 06:14 PM Post: #38 ChainOfBeing Offline Probationer Posts: 178 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 4 RE: Advertising As Fixed Cross once wrote, it serves to stimulate the feeling that something interesting is going on, rather than give or move one toward any kind of actual real value. Self-valuing is manipulated, much in the same way that religion manipulates it -- co-opted the valuational mechanism and making it serve ends foreign and even self-destructive to it. If the self-valuing values accidentally or only partially, by assuming the standards of others as its own, it breeds in its own destruction. This is the real problem with advertising, it is just another modern form of quasi-religious intoxication and insanity-manipulation. I agree with Q that advertising can and should be made more efficient, if we are speaking from within the modern paradigm itself, for of course this makes good sense. But seeing the whole picture, all you are doing is helping the system refine its tools, sharpen its fangs, and put even heavier locks on the doors of the self. View a Printable Version Send this Thread to a Friend Subscribe to this thread Forum Jump: User(s) browsing this thread: Fixed Cross* Contact Us | Natural World Order | Return to Top | Return to Content | Mobile Version | RSS Syndication Powered By MyBB, © 2002-2013 MyBB Group. The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must. - Thucydides see it now? Thunderbolt steers all things. - Heraclitus Fixed Cross Doric Usurper Posts: 6695 Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:53 am ### Re: New Moon Ashes The world wants to imprison you. This is what the world "is", no "conspiracies" needed. Take religion, politics, economics, morality, advertising, you name it. Various systems used to breed various kinds of human beings. Just because your intention is to remove some impurities and excesses of one of these system does not mean your aim is in any way ethical or good, or is not merely assisting the behemoth in its task to devour you whole. Remember, if it doesn't need to chew quite so much, it's that much less effort it needs to bother with. Someone once said that true propaganda slips in without any resistance. And you have not yet defined what you consider to be the distinction between propaganda and advertising. You seem to be clearly against the one, clearly in favor of the other (your idea of it) so where do you draw the difference? Advertising for Coca-Cola has probably killed more humans on this planet than any conflict or war in human history, and probably generated more concentrated wealth than any great colonization and spoils of war. Abandon all hope, ye who enter here. Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-21-2013, 06:17 PM Post: #39 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising In the ideal, I mean. It seems like being on the internet and advertising is the same thing in a manner of speaking. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-21-2013, 06:18 PM Post: #40 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising Quote: Someone once said that true propaganda slips in without any resistance. I am saying: let's make this a good thing. RE: Advertising Quote: And you have not yet defined what you consider to be the distinction between propaganda and advertising. I thought I explained this. (05-20-2013 10:38 AM)Q Wrote: The difference is as follows: Propaganda — Exploiting a known weakness or tendency in someone, or a group of people's psychology. (Proper) Advertising — Offering someone something that they may want, tailored to complement that psychology. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-21-2013, 06:21 PM Post: #42 ChainOfBeing Offline Probationer Posts: 178 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 4 RE: Advertising I asked you earlier here toward what end/s you aim, and you replied, "Just for the sake of doing it." What makes you think you are in any way qualified to decide what "good" is to be served here? Abandon all hope, ye who enter here. Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-21-2013, 06:28 PM Post: #43 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising Why is art made, though? Just for the sake of doing it. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-21-2013, 08:48 PM Post: #44 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Advertising (05-21-2013 06:06 PM)Q Wrote: Quote: Advertising is sales, and I don't trust a sales system based on the premise that it's fine to make shit up to fit your intended message (in advertising, usually shitty primal ones deemed whatever by the oligarchic order), like it's art. How is it really different than art? Art sells itself. Advertising sells X. Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-21-2013, 08:49 PM Post: #45 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Advertising And X = Oligarchic Power Interests in the most brutal way. Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-21-2013, 08:50 PM (This post was last modified: 05-21-2013 08:51 PM by pezer.) Post: #46 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Advertising Much art is sneaky advertising, and that is what perhaps is known as propaganda. (Interesting fact, propaganda is the word for simple advertising in Spanish, the term propaganda política being used for what the simple word is used by gringos.) Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-21-2013, 08:55 PM (This post was last modified: 05-21-2013 08:57 PM by pezer.) Post: #47 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Advertising Propaganda comes from the verb propagar, -anda is like a kind of "of the." Propagar means to disseminate, pro- determinign action, movement, and pagar meaning to pay, to give something of value in exchange. Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-22-2013, 01:26 AM Post: #48 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising (05-20-2013 10:38 AM)Q Wrote: The difference is as follows: Propaganda — Exploiting a known weakness or tendency in someone, or a group of people's psychology. (Proper) Advertising — Offering someone something that they may want, tailored to complement that psychology. It's subtle, but it is there. I will give you an example. (05-21-2013 08:48 PM)pezer Wrote: (05-21-2013 06:06 PM)Q Wrote: Quote: Advertising is sales, and I don't trust a sales system based on the premise that it's fine to make shit up to fit your intended message (in advertising, usually shitty primal ones deemed whatever by the oligarchic order), like it's art. How is it really different than art? Art sells itself. Advertising sells X. This is why I see it as both selling the same thing. [flash(0,0)]http://www.youtube.com/v/suRDUFpsHus[/flash] RE: Advertising Advertising can pull at your heart? No shit! I pointed out the difference. Now I feel you are avoiding an answer you didn't feel comfortable with. Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-22-2013, 06:31 AM Post: #50 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising The show itself is a commercial. Mad Men isn't selling anything other than itself, though. It could all be like that. Seamless. There isn't a difference between art and advertising that I can see. Not in theory. Obviously in demonstrable practice, but I am not talking about that. Search Member List Calendar Help Current time: 08-02-2013, 10:09 AMWelcome back, Fixed Cross. You last visited: Yesterday, 09:40 AM (User CP — Log Out) Open Buddy List New Posts | Today's Posts | View Unread Posts | Private Messages (Unread 0, Total 143) / Overstanding / Health / Advertising Pages (22): « Previous 1 ... 4 5 6 7 8 ... 22 Next » Post Reply Thread Rating: 1 2 3 4 5 Threaded Mode | Linear Mode Advertising 05-22-2013, 10:51 AM Post: #51 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising It seems like unless you are unfunded, all art is just a commercial. When you really look at it like I am trying to. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-22-2013, 11:38 AM Post: #52 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Advertising Listen, I get it. You want art to not be some pointless thing, to have weight. You see advertising as the way to do that. I'm saying that's a trap. Undoubtedly, taking a trap head on is often the best way to approach it, I'm just saying that if you make your weight out of these pre-made societal structures, you are taking on a whole bunch of "lizard kings rolling in the back, how 'bout that?" I'm saying fuck that, let's rebuild. In the end, if you need help for your wacky shit, I will give it. Likewise, maybe you will help me along my more nihilistic path. Difference is the pathos of true evolutionary process. Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-22-2013, 05:11 PM Post: #53 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising Maybe this is one of those 'is Gotham beyond saving' things, but I'm not totally against society. Just the bankers and corporations that are tying to pull a fast one. Plus, when I really think about how to affect large-scale change, it's one of those infiltrate from the inside plans always. I'm just not the nihilistic type. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-22-2013, 06:06 PM Post: #54 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Advertising So what is the approach of your vision to reinterpret advertising? Can it be compatible with non-government? Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-23-2013, 02:01 AM (This post was last modified: 05-23-2013 02:03 AM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #55 ChainOfBeing Offline Probationer Posts: 178 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 4 RE: Advertising There is a huge difference between art, in particular inspired/authentic art or "art pour l'art" and advertising. Advertising wants to manipulate to sell something, to insert lies inside the mind toward some goal that has nothing to do with whatever is good or bad for the victim of the ad. Art rather wants to show and disclose truth, even if this truth is painful or harmful. Often it is not, and even so disclosing suffering and harmful truth through art will lead to mental and emotional uplift and increased self-consciousness. The perspectives and experiences created by art are done from and for the interests of truth, whereas those created by advertising are done not in the interest of truth but in the interest of control. Q, what you may be seeing is the degree of overlap between truth and manipulative control, of course there is some overlap here. But the real spheres of art and advertising are separate, and only intersect a little in the middle, when advertising wants to mimic art to make its control more effective. This is why advertising is no different from propaganda. Advertising is not art, it is propaganda, trying to sell something regardless of what the victim needs or wants. No one forces art at you, or its message, these must be approached actively and openly and with some conscious intention. Not so with advertising, which shoves its message and image upon you rather you want it or not. Art cares about you, and values truth. That is why the art exists at all. What does advertising care about and value? Profit, to control and manipulation to create consumers of products. Q, you want to make advertising more like art in this respect, but you cannot succeed, all you can do is give advertising better tools with which to better mimic art, thus making advertising even more effective and deadly. Further contributing to human's inability to tell the difference for themselves. Abandon all hope, ye who enter here. Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-23-2013, 05:52 AM Post: #56 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising We're all online... Is the type of art you talk about possible anymore? How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-23-2013, 05:53 AM Post: #57 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising Think of it in a Marxian sense. It's all money. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-23-2013, 06:44 AM Post: #58 ChainOfBeing Offline Probationer Posts: 178 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 4 RE: Advertising Surely you are not claiming that real art is not being done anymore. I would not even know how to respond to such an absurd claim. Abandon all hope, ye who enter here. Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-23-2013, 10:33 AM Post: #59 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising Sure it's being done offline in caves maybe. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-23-2013, 10:52 AM (This post was last modified: 05-23-2013 10:52 AM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #60 ChainOfBeing Offline Probationer Posts: 178 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 4 RE: Advertising Today even artists using traditional media like canvas put a lot of their work online. Also people create new digital art, just for the sake of art and not because it is part of any ad campaign. I honestly have no idea what you are trying to say here, it seems Pezer was right that you are just trying to avoid an uncomfortable reality. Abandon all hope, ye who enter here. Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator « Next Oldest | Next Newest » Pages (22): « Previous 1 ... 4 5 6 7 8 ... 22 Next » Post Reply [-] Quick Reply Message Type your reply to this message here. Signature Disable Smilies View a Printable Version Send this Thread to a Friend Subscribe to this thread Forum Jump: User(s) browsing this thread: Fixed Cross* Contact Us | Natural World Order | Return to Top | Return to Content | Mobile Version | RSS Syndication Powered By MyBB, © 2002-2013 MyBB Group. Search Member List Calendar Help Current time: 08-02-2013, 10:09 AMWelcome back, Fixed Cross. You last visited: Yesterday, 09:40 AM (User CP — Log Out) Open Buddy List New Posts | Today's Posts | View Unread Posts | Private Messages (Unread 0, Total 143) / Overstanding / Health / Advertising Pages (22): « Previous 1 ... 5 6 7 8 9 ... 22 Next » Post Reply Thread Rating: 1 2 3 4 5 Threaded Mode | Linear Mode Advertising 05-23-2013, 11:04 AM Post: #61 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising Lol How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-23-2013, 12:42 PM Post: #62 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising What do you guys say to the Marx point? How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-24-2013, 08:51 AM Post: #63 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising Cause it's a pretty old argument. I am not the first one to look at art critically. I'm not the first one to call into question this Dreamboat conception you have of it. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-24-2013, 09:44 AM Post: #64 Fixed Cross Offline Neophyte Posts: 466 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 8 Warning Level: 0% RE: Advertising Dont bitch around, Q has hold of the most vital part of Earthly power... And he wants to humanize it, naturalizr it. Superhymanize, perhaps. All of us already know the power and the downside of that. Q is looking for an upside. There is none' is not a vital answer. Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Edit this post Delete this post Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-24-2013, 12:10 PM Post: #65 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising I have failed to really convey the entirety of this, but it is actually a cynical enough approach for you cynics. I recognize the underlying drives in people (and masses), and I am looking to use it. Let's drop the aesthetics talk and just recognize that for a second. With Netflix, YouTube, and just the net in general, there is a marketing/advertising revolution occurring. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-24-2013, 12:49 PM Post: #66 Fixed Cross Offline Neophyte Posts: 466 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 8 Warning Level: 0% RE: Advertising Let's advertise the future. Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Edit this post Delete this post Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-24-2013, 12:52 PM (This post was last modified: 05-24-2013 12:57 PM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #67 Fixed Cross Offline Neophyte Posts: 466 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 8 Warning Level: 0% RE: Advertising coming soon: THE FUTURE Get tickets NOW at NWO It shouldn't be hard to top that pitch. But it's going to be hard to pitch it so that humanity will attain the state of mind conductive of a future we can approve of. Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Edit this post Delete this post Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-25-2013, 01:18 AM (This post was last modified: 05-25-2013 01:21 AM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #68 ChainOfBeing Offline Probationer Posts: 178 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 4 RE: Advertising This so called great power is the tyrannical manipulation and subvert control that reduces man to a passive consumer, an unthinking zombie. The argument of course can be made that man has already been reduced thusly, and who is to say that even before the advent of advertising that man was not in such an unawakened state? (Of course he was). But, my concern here had been with the telos of this intention to grab this power, to change it, to apply it. Toward what ends do you aim? Merely playing with this power for the sake of play, for the fun of it, represents the lowest kind of aspiration, like that of a child. Intending something "good" only means one has matured slightly if there is a firm understanding of what "good" really means, and of course even if this is the case one is still but a dangerous and ignorant adolescent if one has no real knowledge or skill with how to apply a method to direct and use this power. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, as we know. I was interested to discover the motives behind the aim. More so, too, to discover the source and substance of these motives, and rather they be informed by any means and maturity regardless of their "goodness". One only need look to the Stanford Prison Study to learn mankind's natural inclination to "good will" under having been granted near-absolute power over his brothers. No "natural" will can serve us here, not where the direct, potent and often invisible manipulations of mankind are concerned. Neither will a will to power serve us at this juncture, contrary to what Nietzsche wrote. Nietzsche did not live in an age where the tools and weapons were so easily able to be picked up and wielded by quite literally anybody. What we have now is all out warfare of ideas, control, dogma, brainwashing, but unlike in the past many "uninitiated" masses of men now play the game. As I wrote, they are made to kill each other without any need for a third party. You are so eager to jump into the trenches as get your hands dirty with them? I would rather undermine the system as a whole, I would rather cultivate something worthy of going beyond this merely animal hell, than deceive myself that I can play this game as good or better than those who have been mastering it for the last 80 years. First, I propose we analyze a series of essential questions concerned with refining not only our sight but also out taste, from both directions, if indeed your will is to play the game on their own terms. Like Pezer I am more of an anarchist here, but since you are set on your path, let us try and cull something of greater potential from this path. 1) upon what do you draw when crafting your "improved" ads? 2) what is man's relationship to the ads you create 3) for whom do you work/receive pay in creating ads? 4) do you have mechanisms in place to evaluate the effectiveness of your ads? 5) if yes to 4 above, what are the standards you use to evaluate effectiveness or lack of effectiveness? 6) where do you most realistically see man in 50 years from now, relative to what you think the potential is for your advertising power to contribute toward this future? 7) where do you want to see man in 50 years from now, relative to what you think the potential is for your advertising power to contribute toward this future? Abandon all hope, ye who enter here. Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-25-2013, 06:01 AM Post: #69 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising Quote: Merely playing with this power for the sake of play, for the fun of it, represents the lowest kind of aspiration, like that of a child. FX, tell him. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-25-2013, 06:04 AM (This post was last modified: 05-25-2013 06:07 AM by Q.) Post: #70 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising As for the rest, as I have said, it's not about the content so much as the relevance of the ads. You keep missing my point. It's not about what I am writing. It's about changing the method of distribution so you don't have the situation where people are zombied through ads they don't care about. The stuff I said about wanting to manipulate people's minds, just forget about. It's true, but those are not my aspirations. I, as a culture critic, have come to just see most people as wanting to be manipuated. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator « Next Oldest | Next Newest » Pages (22): « Previous 1 ... 5 6 7 8 9 ... 22 Next » Post Reply [-] Quick Reply Message Type your reply to this message here. Signature Disable Smilies Back to top Go down View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online Fixed Cross Tower Tower Posts : 1237 Join date : 2011-11-09 PostSubject: Re: Natural World Ashes Thu Aug 01, 2013 1:14 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster The basic disagreement, however, is that I am looking at the nature of advertising as it IS, right now in this world, and you are looking at the nature of what it could be through your idea of how to alter its content, and perhaps its form as well. I have yet to see any specifics on how Q or yourself would modify advertising to these ends you speak of. In fact, this was the whole point of my asking these following questions of Q, that I assume the potentiality of your aim and thus am interested to see rather or not Q is worthy of this potential. You will notice that these questions I asked of him have so far gone unanswered. Fair enough. I'd like to add that I see the "as is" in a wider frame, but that follows from what I've written above. Let me try to answer the questions as I see fit. 1) upon what do you draw when crafting your "improved" ads? -This is a bit general, not quite sure what you mean. 2) what is man's relationship to the ads you create -His libido is activated and stirring his mind. 3) for whom do you work/receive pay in creating ads? -For no one, the ads aren't made to make money. They'd have to be a 'pro bono' thing for starters. Eventually organizations and companies that have interest in them might jump in - organizations that work to advance health and sanity, break the monopoly of disease and madness. 4) do you have mechanisms in place to evaluate the effectiveness of your ads? -Only observing a changing mindset in the environment where they'e disseminated would count. 5) if yes to 4 above, what are the standards you use to evaluate effectiveness or lack of effectiveness? -People taking control is the only mark of effectiveness. 6) where do you most realistically see man in 50 years from now, relative to what you think the potential is for your advertising power to contribute toward this future? -He could just become a total slave, schizofrenic, torn between libido and conscience, between passion and reason. This means a resentful man, hating what he is, unable to address the cause of what he hates about himself because it is what fuels all his actions. 7) where do you want to see man in 50 years from now, relative to what you think the potential is for your advertising power to contribute toward this future? -He has somewhat bridged the gap between his libido and his mind, meaning he is less able to be manipulated through his libido. Meaning: he has been trained somewhat to 'test the origin of the stimulus'. Quote: Who owns the media through which you plan to advertise your counter-movement against these assholes? The assholes own it. Nearly every media outlet that has any viability is controlled directly or indirectly by vested interests. So how do you plan to fight the system when the system has the ability to censor, repress, edit or shut off completely your own content? I see the problem of over-centralization of global multinational power getting worse with time, not better. Monopolies are more common than ever, especially in the media world. Honestly, I simply refuse to be certain about what I do not know. The 'machine' is at this point still manned by humans, and these are all liabilities, uncertainties. Millions of people man the various machines, and all of them can be influenced. Quote: Maybe you plan to start small, the local paper, a Youtube channel, maybe start a blog or your own website like NWO. Sure, that's great, I honestly say you should go for it. But I would ask you to as honestly consider how much of an effect you really think this is going to have in a world with Viacom, Time Warner, Disney, CBS, News Corporation, Comcast, Facebook and Google controlling 99% of the market. And as I said, I see it getting worse, not better. The biggest direct audience (as opposed to repeated airings) I've had is a show on Dutch national television. It was the thing about Islam, which was quite simply an advertisement for an agenda I had chosen. I may no longer agree with that agenda but it was wholly conceived by me and undiluted. When the company began trying to dilute it, I quit. That lasted for about three months. I'm saying basically you can get around company agenda if you're smart enough to camouflage the effect/intent with something that appears attractive in general, that 'sells'. I do not see a monolithic conscience of oppression - just a general trend. The trend, I believe, can be broken. Gradually, bit by bit and perhaps only for segments of the population. Doing this is 'fun' - that is the magic ingredient why it could work - it is not a morose, grudging undertaking, but something that would become addictive fo r an increasing number of people. Just like life is addictive, 'stupid', stimulated by libido and confusion. Quote: So I guess I am not disagreeing with your intention, but I want specifics as to how you plan to implement your goals. For better or worse I am incapable of entertaining impossible or unrealistic hope. Believe me, I have tried many times, and failed miserably. I am at heart a bitter pragmatist, despite that the aspiration of my theory reaches for the stars. I want truly to believe in your power here, but until I can see something convincing, rational and reasonable, I have no choice but to see it merely as fruitless fantasy. Very fair. And I can not prove it to you. I have some very specific plans but I am not going to write them down here. It comes down to the fact that, with what man is able to do today, I see vast potential for attainable glory, sanity and upward motion, and think I discovered some of the keys to such a movement. I would need a significant bit of capital to really get this off the ground... but I am far from hopeless in this regard. Quote: Again, why has Q not addressed my seven questions? These more than anything get to the real heart of the problem here. I want to see the answers to those questions because it will tell me a lot about the nature of his 'struggle'. They're difficult questions, for sure. Quote: Advertising inserts repetitions and fixation-patterns into the psyche, Quote: Well this is what advertising is, at heart. It is manipulation designed to sell something. It's a manipulation designed to draw the attention, to fixate the self-valuing on something it thinks may add to it. Perhaps the most dangerous tool there is, yes. But does nature itself not advertise? A female praying mantice advertises sex but sells death. It is not a new phenomenon, and in many cases it works out better than for the male praying mantice. Quote: This differs from education in the following ways: Education intends to produce change through rational presentation of accurate information. Education treats the recipient as a rational being with the ability to learn truth if given access to all the relevant facts on a matter. The goal of education is to produce truth, accurate information, whereas the goal of advertising is to alter behavior in a way that benefits the makers of the ads. Granted, a lot of education has become propagandized, but this only proves my point about the difference between education and advertising. Under no circumstances will I say that advertising must take the place of education, or can assimilate its function. I want advertising to steer toward the sort of mindset that values clarity. Quote: I argue that what you are doing is not creating advertising, you are creating art that is intended to educate. This is noble. Your art is very different in nature from advertising, then. If you intent to use unconscious manipulation to achieve your ends, all you are doing is weakening those whom you intend to strengthen. You cannot treat a human being like a domesticated pet and expect it to experience some sort of intellectual or spiritual uplift. You cannot expect a mass of mindlessly passive drones to be anything but a mass of mindlessly passive drones, no matter what high level of noble content you intent to shove into their heads. The passivity is bred by separating what JSS calls awareness of hopes and threats from actual hopes and threats. But this is not implicit in the method of advertising. It's a chosen course. As man is imperfect in the literal sense, -incomplete - he continues to require 'agents' to perfect himself, or to advance. Do you agree to this? Quote: May I see some examples of the ads you have created? I never valued any of them enough to keep them - they were all for the tv station I worked for. I was usually given the assignment to produce the ads and promo's - it is a government funded station with no real commercial interests, so I was given a lot of freedom and the content sold was really very harmless. They would often rely on me to make harmless things look 'sexy' or at least suggest some kind of thrill. Then I did some advertising of projects like the film "We feed the world", basically a campaign against genetically manipulated foods, and for some other non profit, idealistic projects, trailers, basically. Many of the 'thousands of ads' I made were trailers or promo's for other material. I rarely made ads for real 'products', although I did create ads for things like bars and clubs at one point. All of these things don't sell anything that's not there. I developed a lot of ideas for product-ads, some of which were actually used later on for these products (it's very strange, it's like when you think of something it gets 'out there' and gets picked up - I've had ideas for movies that would appear, diluted, in cinema's a couple of years later). It's safe to say that I was exaggerating my output - in most of these thousands of ads/promo's for the tv station I just did the editing - but that is where the desire is created, and that is what I was occupied with. I have a lot of potential in this field - but since I will immediately vomit once I find myself in the process of professionally telling an unwholesome lie, this potential doesn't fit the machine. For this reason (the potential) I relish in the thought of Q's intention. It is a theme that has been on my mind for more than a decade. I very vividly see the kind of future I would like to advertise. But I am not in the position to do that just yet - I only want to advertise it if I have the potential to realize at least part of it. Quote: Quote: In a blip: the future is not poisonous. Please share your evidence/reasons with me. I will be completely honest here, I have seen absolutely no reason to agree with you on this, "the future is not poisonous". I want you to convince me. There's the thing - I can not possibly provide a factual basis for this. I can only create the ideal, as a point in time for man to orient on - a new star to navigate by. to even just allow for the direction, to allow man to make certain steps - to open up a 'valency rhizome' simply by disclosing certain yearnings... to connect the libido to truly wholesome perspectives... all of this I see embedded as potential in the craft of advertising. But I certainly agree that another name may be appropriate to distinguish it from 'selling'. Quote: Quote: The Greek temples were advertisements for the imagined Gods. These Gods compelled people to try to live up to superhuman standards. Yes, and the deception led all the way to Christian decadence, and necessarily so, and continues to this day. No doubt that we owe tremendous debt to the Greeks, but they had no choice except to mystify conscious experience because they were the first to discover it, they had to make use of the tools that were laying around. Are we still stuck in their deplorably small reality? No, we have inherited an entire mass of culture and tools with which to engage the mind directly, honestly and openly. That is all I am asking for. If this is how you view advertising then we are not disagreeing here, except on the fact that I do not believe advertising is capable of directly, honestly and openly engaging the mind. I agree - it only engages the libido, it produces drives. What I aim for is that the libido is engaged toward engaging the mind. It's like what JSS proposes for a film about RM. The narrative must 'seduce' the viewer to consider the logics. Quote: You are drawing the distinction between education and propaganda in a very concrete and "deep" way, which I admire. But I have no reason yet to see how this distinction which you draw bears a resemblance to reality as we know it. What makes you think that your sort of advertising will be more effective than the current form of manipulation, brainwashing and death? Not more effective, just also there. Thus reducing the net effect of the other type. Quote: I believe that the instrument and the end-result are intimately connected. Why has the modern world of the last 100 years differed so drastically from what has come before, if advertising is merely, at the level of instrument, no different from education or art? I think the instrument is very, very different. If you want to revolutionize advertising in the way you state, this is an excellent goal. I do not dispute this. But if you believe you can revolutionize it from the inside, making use of the very same instruments and media and distribution systems as currently push the global advertising insanity and death-machine, I entirely disagree. I also disagree that your own counter-movement, however you plan to carry it out, is able to pose any serious threat to the established order, but this is only because so far I have seen no evidence to make me believe otherwise. Have either you or Q given real concrete examples here yet? Maybe I missed them, I am very interested in seeing specifically what sort of "advertising" you and Q mean. Again, the questions I designed for Q to really target the substance behind these claims have so far gone unanswered. I suppose that I am at heart a little more hopeful and optimistic about man and his potential future - but just a little. In the end I think it's going to be harsh awareness, cataclysm and scientific/philosophical advancement that truly breaks new ground for new health. But since I already am very harshly aware and a scientific philosopher, I consider myself to be in a position to begin advertising my perspective. Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Edit this post Delete this post Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-26-2013, 04:16 AM (This post was last modified: 05-26-2013 04:18 AM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #86 Fixed Cross Offline Neophyte Posts: 466 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 8 Warning Level: 0% RE: Advertising The idea is to create a gateway. What's behind that gateway has already been established. I think that the models of thought we (notably you, JSS, I, Parodites) have brought to each others awareness in the past two years or so is truly worth more than just a little hope and ambition. In fact I find it very hard to even muster a feeling of doubt about the power of any of it. It is this power that I want to 'advertise' - as all that drives man is his will to _the feeling of_ power, to bring up Sauwelios' most adequate contribution to Nietzsche. And yet as Q says, the content can be conveyed to a good extent in its presentation. In fact, that will be the real 'revolution' in advertising - having it convey a seductive truth, rather than a seductive lie. Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Edit this post Delete this post Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-26-2013, 06:24 AM Post: #87 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising Quote: having it convey a seductive truth, rather than a seductive lie. Love it. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-26-2013, 06:31 AM (This post was last modified: 05-26-2013 06:31 AM by Q.) Post: #88 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising Now, having said all of that: Google Glass is crazy. I am writing an article about all of this that will explain it better, but suffice it say I have seen this thing coming years ago (I thought it would be Apple because at the time I saw them as move inventive) and now that it is here, things are starting to really get nuts. They know where they want to take this thing. The year of 'testing' is to dissolve the laws that stand in the way of them bulldozing privacy. You wanna get nuts? Let get nuts. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-MtW7hbzWk I'm honestly not sure what to say. Eventually, there will be that line in the sand. There will be the 'purists' and the borg. lol..."hey sexy. Why don't you take off your HUD and let's do this thing." More in a bit. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-26-2013, 08:41 AM Post: #89 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Advertising I want to express my objections fully, like ChainOfBeing, not to demolish or contradict you, but because if you are to win, you must understand them. Even if you later decide to ignore them. I think advertisement, the appeal to drives, is a massive disrispect to human chemistry. I may be cruel, but I prefer to let someone be dumb than force him to be smart. I don't want my friends to be endebted to me to that degree, and anybody that I help is a friend. There is an important element of individuality to human, to mammal, even. To attempt to overcome this is communism, fascism, and all other governmental isms. Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-26-2013, 08:43 AM Post: #90 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Advertising In other words, I believe that lust is a private affair, and a human right in its privacy if any thing is. Privacy isn't secrecy, just discretion in the sense of initiative. Science is found in the question "how do you know?" RE: Advertising Absolutely. This touches on the deep instinct of aversion and disgust I have always had when given the opportunity to lead lesser minds to positions of higher truths. If I am the only thing causing their rise, this is not only offensive to them and me, but is actually harmful to them. And to me. I am only able to speak with, education and elevate minds that have a certain quality about them which means that my "interventions" into their ideas is not manipulation but rather only an exchange of information. I suspect this quality has much to do with the difference between active and passive consciousness. I think this is something that certain people just do not understand, because they seem to feel none of this aversion in the moment of manipulative influence. To them the ends entirely justify the means, with no "remainder" whatsoever. Abandon all hope, ye who enter here. Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-26-2013, 01:02 PM (This post was last modified: 05-26-2013 01:02 PM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #92 ChainOfBeing Offline Probationer Posts: 178 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 4 RE: Advertising And Q, as for Google Glass.... so what? You think we do not already live in a world without whatever values and ideals you think are going to be sacrificed to Glass? Wake up man. Open your fucking eyes. Glass is just another excuse for you to feel the stimulation of your ego, of your vanity as coerced self-valuing. You are more interested in your own emotional pleasure and self-justification than in anything else, which is why I have questioned you on this whole "revolutionzing advertising" thing from the very beginning here. Abandon all hope, ye who enter here. Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-26-2013, 02:19 PM (This post was last modified: 05-26-2013 02:23 PM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #93 ChainOfBeing Offline Probationer Posts: 178 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 4 RE: Advertising Fixed Cross, yes I see what you are saying, I agree with you. From your vantage my argument here is basically saying that we should just lay down and give up, just wait to die. However that is not my intention, and this consequence only manifests from the perspective of someone as elevated as yourself. I do not believe that Q is worthy of the power which you aim for. I believe that you are worthy of it. But I wonder how many there are, who are capable of really taking this power and controlling it, rather than being determined by it. Pezer is correct that one cannot just use the machine itself to try and destroy the machine, it will not let this happen. But what we can do is select certain parts of the machine, for revaluation. This would be the application of strict values-selection and would require both the most general-comprehensive kind of intelligent as well as the most specific-precise kind of intelligence. Value Ontology presupposes both, of course, in those who are able to/compelled to grasp it. My aim is not to give up on the aim, but to legitimize it. For my part, this means to purge its impure elements. At this point that is all I can really do, because I see this more easily than I see where we actually go forward from here. Your point that the future is not poisoned, yes I see this too -- perhaps my issue is with the chasm between the ideal-actual and the real-actual, between the forms of virtuality, as equally real in their own right, and the concrete constructions of hard past, immovable stone, the dead and forever dying. The mind can slip from one extreme to another and anywhere in between, based only on the most whimsical, psychologistic and arbitrary concern. Desire, need, self-satiety, anxiety and fear, self-defense, the feeling of the will to power..... until these are harnessed by something which has gone beyond them, and beyond even the collective sum of them, we can elevate ourselves and our aim with as many theories and ideas as we like, but we have in effect changed nothing. Again this is what Pezer also said with his long list of thinkers-writers and the detrimental consequences of their thought. We must know at least in general toward what ends our aims move. And I do not mean our intention, our vision, but rather a movement seated in the world, in what is already beyond us. When among those such as yourself, I am not nearly as cynical as I can appear to be. Pragmatism only hides an ideal when viewed through the lens of something greater, of something which truly has grown up from such soil of an ideal itself. In effect, I long for a society of my peers, and barring this pronounce philosophy and all else merely an eternal vanity, a hopeless self-annihilation. Abandon all hope, ye who enter here. Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-27-2013, 02:04 AM (This post was last modified: 05-27-2013 02:04 AM by Q.) Post: #94 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising Someone tell this guy we all get the basic ideas he's presenting here. We don't need the tl;dr posts about the basics of conspiracy 101. And that he doesn't need to talk like a movie character. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-27-2013, 02:06 AM (This post was last modified: 05-27-2013 02:11 AM by Q.) Post: #95 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising I've asked you the same question like fucking 14 times. Why don't you try answering it, instead of rambling on about shit we've beaten into the ground 3 years ago. We're growing up. You should think about joining us. You're just a broken record at this point. You've said the same thing in every post in this thread. It's not that I don't get it. It's that I don't care about your sophomoric stance. Quote: I do not believe that Q is worthy of the power which you aim for. Don't tell me that power can corrupt a person. You haven't had enough to know what it's like. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-27-2013, 02:18 AM (This post was last modified: 05-27-2013 02:20 AM by Q.) Post: #96 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising Quote: I do not believe that Q is worthy of the power which you aim for. I believe that you are worthy of it. But I wonder how many there are, who are capable of really taking this power and controlling it, rather than being determined by it. Pezer is correct that one cannot just use the machine itself to try and destroy the machine, it will not let this happen. But what we can do is select certain parts of the machine, for revaluation. This would be the application of strict values-selection and would require both the most general-comprehensive kind of intelligent as well as the most specific-precise kind of intelligence. Value Ontology presupposes both, of course, in those who are able to/compelled to grasp it. My aim is not to give up on the aim, but to legitimize it. For my part, this means to purge its impure elements. At this point that is all I can really do, because I see this more easily than I see where we actually go forward from here. Your point that the future is not poisoned, yes I see this too -- perhaps my issue is with the chasm between the ideal-actual and the real-actual, between the forms of virtuality, as equally real in their own right, and the concrete constructions of hard past, immovable stone, the dead and forever dying. The mind can slip from one extreme to another and anywhere in between, based only on the most whimsical, psychologistic and arbitrary concern. Desire, need, self-satiety, anxiety and fear, self-defense, the feeling of the will to power..... until these are harnessed by something which has gone beyond them, and beyond even the collective sum of them, we can elevate ourselves and our aim with as many theories and ideas as we like, but we have in effect changed nothing. Again this is what Pezer also said with his long list of thinkers-writers and the detrimental consequences of their thought. We must know at least in general toward what ends our aims move. And I do not mean our intention, our vision, but rather a movement seated in the world, in what is already beyond us. I don't know if you are just baked or something, but read this outloud. You realize that you are saying literally nothing of substance here. So what should we aspire to, really? Long posts on a forum preaching to the choir? Or actual change in the world? And your counterargument is, "Well I don't think that guy that can successfully do it." You don't even fucking know me, man. If you did you wouldn't be talking to me like an 6-year-old about the Will to Power. I will fill you in on something: everyone here understands the Will to Power. We have all read most philosophy books. I even have a degree in philosophy. I don't need your approval. All I need is for you to answer the question I have posed to you 14 times. I'm really getting tired of people treating reality like some Star Trek TNG city. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-27-2013, 02:27 AM Post: #97 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising As I said before: I haven't given up on society. Have you, chain? Have you completely given up, and do you want things to be some Mad Max scenario? The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must. - Thucydides see it now? Thunderbolt steers all things. - Heraclitus Fixed Cross Doric Usurper Posts: 6695 Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:53 am ### Re: New Moon Ashes I don't see how you guys can just drop words like 'Anarchist' and then even be on a forum? Why not just move to some farm or something somewhere and live our your days? I don't see the use in sitting around hoping for 'No government' when that is... just fucking clearly not going to happen. Humans are organized. That is just a cosmic pattern that will never change. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-27-2013, 02:31 AM Post: #98 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising Answer this. Fuck. I don't see how you both can't look at it like this regardless. All logic leads here. If you can show how commerce doesn't need to happen, then I'll drop this pursuit right now. (05-25-2013 11:07 AM)Q Wrote: Quote: It is damaging because it co-opts the self-valuing mechanism toward ends not that the individual is not complicit in and/or is unaware of. Advertising inserts repetitions and fixation-patterns into the psyche, reorganizing desires, fears, ideas, perceptions around a single goal: to get that person to think-feel-act in a way that directly benefits the producers of the ads. Yes. This is correct. That is to say, advertising is a crazy powerful force. That is the specific reason why I want to try and change it. Right now, it's too powerful, and the very act of selling is something that we can't escape. So, if we can't escape selling, we have to change how it is done. That is what I am saying. If you can find me a way around the above, then I would love to hear it. If you have some way where we don't need to sell stuff, then let's do that for sure. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-27-2013, 02:47 AM Post: #99 ChainOfBeing Offline Probationer Posts: 178 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 4 RE: Advertising My apologies. I did not realize the full extent of your depravity. Abandon all hope, ye who enter here. Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-27-2013, 03:14 AM (This post was last modified: 05-27-2013 03:15 AM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #100 ChainOfBeing Offline Probationer Posts: 178 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 4 RE: Advertising I will do you the honor of responding to your question, despite that you have wholly ignored my 7 focused questions to you. I believe this is the one you want a response to, Quote: There will always be selling - start with that. I think you will find that a lot of what you said is irrelevant when you consider advertising is going to happen. The question is: how? I have not ever claimed or assumed that advertising is "not going to happen". I think you see my position through a false lens because this appears easier for you to understand, that I am trying merely to dismiss the unquestionable reality of the world of selling and advertising, as if these do not reach deep into the core nature of the human essence. The goal of anarchy is not to undo what has already risen from the inevitable, the goal of anarchy is to produce alternatives, to widen the sphere of the possible. We oppose substance with substance, not substance with absence. And when dealing with the "how?", this is what FC and I have been talking about, if you are paying attention. ___________ " The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. " - Thucydides Back to top Go down View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online Fixed Cross Tower Tower Posts : 1237 Join date : 2011-11-09 PostSubject: Re: Natural World Ashes Thu Aug 01, 2013 1:15 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster RE: Advertising Quote: If you want to truly help subvert the modern reality of advertising, find a way to sell things that does not require an ad, a manipulation and distorted presentation. I think avoiding full transparency is inevitable. Anyone remember Tristan/XCZ? One of the most important things he said to em is that you if you want anyone to listen, you have to learn how to market yourself. You have to dress things up a little bit. Like I keep saying, I would like to get rid of ads. However, if that happens, then the selling cannot be transparent or it won't be effective. People won't buy. You can't have a movie or website that is totally transparent. Just look at how people buy stuff - even the most ethical companies have to play the game because people sort of like to play games. At the very least, it's just boring if you don't. Money these days is just people viewing and talking with each other online. Advertising will shift to that, it's just a question of how. What I am trying to do is get close to an evitability more so than create something totally new or put in a lot of work. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-27-2013, 11:25 AM Post: #112 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Advertising Maybe they don't buy because the product, laid bare, is a fucking waste of time. This is what we are saying. If it doesn't sell itself, it maybe shouldn't be sold. Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-27-2013, 11:27 AM Post: #113 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Advertising That people have been trained not to be entertained by anything other than what they can be advertised into allowing themselves to enjoy is, I am starting to think, enough of a reason to to infiltrate and trick people out of it. So you are reeling me in. But the examples you have used of how advertising is already changing are not that, and seem more like refinements on the old guard technique. Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-27-2013, 12:43 PM (This post was last modified: 05-27-2013 12:46 PM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #114 ChainOfBeing Offline Probationer Posts: 178 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 4 RE: Advertising Yes. 90+% of everything sold is either utterly useless or harmful. Advertising makes us want it. If the product laid bare isn't marketable then either the product is worthless or people don't recognize it's value. So your revolution can begin by establishing the standards of value by which the two are differentiated from one another. Thus letting the first type fall out of the (artificial) market and letting the other stand forth and become value-able in the (real) market. Productive constructions of artificial or fabricated value still need something more or less substantial and grounded to rest upon. Even Nietzsche with his "great and terrifying masks" knew this. I say, use advertising against advertising. Make anti-ad ads, like what Adbusters does. Don't refine the system's tools, expose the tool as tool. Someone is bound to be able to profit off that, so find them/their product and sell it through the anti-ads. Abandon all hope, ye who enter here. Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-27-2013, 03:47 PM Post: #115 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising (05-27-2013 11:25 AM)pezer Wrote: Maybe they don't buy because the product, laid bare, is a fucking waste of time. This is what we are saying. If it doesn't sell itself, it maybe shouldn't be sold. What product? I'm not talking about a vacuum cleaner. Time to break out of this 1920's Nietzsche paradigm. That was like a 100 years ago. We're not moving into, or will ever exist in some Marxist one-product-per-use society so I don't know why you guys bother with that stuff. I mean... be serious. If you want to talk about that, find Detrop in jail and pen pal with him. I'm looking for something that is remotely plausible. Some Soviet state is not plausible to me. People want to have fun in life. I don't know why you would even want to live in a society like that. It sounds boring as fuck. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-27-2013, 03:52 PM Post: #116 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising You guys keep reiterating that I shouldn't walk into the Devil's playpen and start trying to change the entire game - OK, cool - but then you come up with this 'Well we want everything to be some Soviet gulag commerce' thing and it's just like... is what actually your plan? You will have to compromise that slightly if you want to have a hope at succeeding because you are looking to change 'the game' way, way too dramatically to ever hope to succeed. My approach may not be the most ethically 'pure' but it has a snowball's chance in hell at actually happening. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-27-2013, 03:54 PM (This post was last modified: 05-27-2013 03:54 PM by Q.) Post: #117 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising I am sensing a whole lot of simply hating advertising. And I mean... I get it. I honestly do. I wouldn't be saying this stuff if I didn't fucking despite advertising in its current form. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-27-2013, 04:05 PM (This post was last modified: 05-27-2013 04:06 PM by Q.) Post: #118 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising Guys - this is our first hype thread in a while. I like it. Even if I had to get trolly lol I am not bragging so much as demonstrating how advertising is required for attention in a given area. There is too much going on for the fact of the matter to be enough. It took me saying something novel to push people past that threshold of interest. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-27-2013, 05:19 PM (This post was last modified: 05-27-2013 05:20 PM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #119 ChainOfBeing Offline Probationer Posts: 178 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 4 RE: Advertising Wait, who said anything about wanting a Soviet gulag? Abandon all hope, ye who enter here. Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-27-2013, 05:22 PM Post: #120 ChainOfBeing Offline Probationer Posts: 178 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 4 RE: Advertising An all-out war of anti-ads against the whole advertising system doesn't sound "boring" to me at all. In fact it sounds a hell of a lot more interesting than the shit setup we have right now, with the proliferation of fake forms of meaning and value-as-cheap-fashion. Not to mention the positive health benefits for the individual, relationships, politics and the environment if we were to cut out a huge chunk of the fucking waste that commerce produces. RE: Advertising I am saying the public doesn't want complete transparency. I not saying that there should be waste/wasteful/cheap stuff. If anything, I see those two things as somewhat diametric because I think artistic advertising is more efficient than just saying: "This new vacuum has these new features." Why regress back to the pre-Bernays period? That is what you are suggesting. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-27-2013, 05:59 PM Post: #122 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising (05-27-2013 05:19 PM)ChainOfBeing Wrote: Wait, who said anything about wanting a Soviet gulag? I tend to be somewhat dramatic. I love to take literary liberties because, well, I am a writer. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-27-2013, 06:22 PM (This post was last modified: 05-27-2013 06:22 PM by Q.) Post: #123 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising "So have you figured out a way to work "The Wheel" into it?" "We know it's hard because wheels aren't really seen as exciting technology, even if they are seen as the original." ------ "He also talked about a deeper bond with the product - nostalgia - it's delicate, but...it's potent. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-27-2013, 06:23 PM (This post was last modified: 05-27-2013 06:24 PM by Q.) Post: #124 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising "It takes us to a place that we ache to go again." "It lets us travel in the way that a child travels." How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-27-2013, 06:29 PM Post: #125 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Advertising Bro, you have accused us of much projecting, so you are held to see it in yourself. Now, listen, advertising is defined as the presenting of a product. If it's something else, please blow my mind, and don't use pretty abstractions like you accuse us of doing. And read me like I mean it, without spite (without moraline Wink ). Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-27-2013, 06:34 PM Post: #126 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Advertising Advertising as free-form teasing...? I can see why you are into the occult... I'm not sying don't jump into the hell fire!!! By the gods!! I am saying please do, If anything, I just want you to know that it is hell fire so that you can be prepared to deal with shit once you get there. Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-27-2013, 06:34 PM Post: #127 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising Quote: Now, listen, advertising is defined as the presenting of a product. If it's something else, please blow my mind, Ah ha, but here it is: It can't be anything else, because that is so broad. That is what I am saying. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-27-2013, 06:35 PM Post: #128 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Advertising Dude, did you ever really let the significance of Beyond Good and Evil as a phrase sink in? Beyond Good and Evil. Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-27-2013, 06:37 PM Post: #129 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Advertising That was as far as defusing my appearance of judge and jury. I am a critic, and a colaborationist. I said you are selling products. You said that is 1920 talk. I say show me how. Yo say I'm being too broad. Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-27-2013, 07:01 PM Post: #130 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising Let me sleep on it. Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising It's 1920's talk because... this isn't the 1920s. Like I said, what I am talking about with respect to ads applies to even this forum. Why not just have it all black and white with no quotes or any aesthetic consideration? Why did I color it like this, and behave a certain way? It's all art. It's all advertising. It's all interconnected, and when you try to hate on one aspect, you just invariably end up hating on art. Or that is how I see it. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-28-2013, 07:18 PM Post: #132 ChainOfBeing Offline Probationer Posts: 178 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 4 RE: Advertising (05-28-2013 06:31 PM)Q Wrote: It's 1920's talk because... this isn't the 1920s. Like I said, what I am talking about with respect to ads applies to even this forum. Why not just have it all black and white with no quotes or any aesthetic consideration? Why did I color it like this, and behave a certain way? It's all art. It's all advertising. It's all interconnected, and when you try to hate on one aspect, you just invariably end up hating on art. Or that is how I see it. The difference is that beauty does not advertise anything. Beauty becomes an advertisement with the addition of a vainity, insatiable longing, coupling with a desire. This is how philosophy emerges in a state of wonder, as Aristotle said, because conscience or morality/the good, in terms of a human kind of sympathy, bears firstly only the weight of itself and assumes a noble stature of innocence before depravity and lust. The proof is in the pudding. Philosophy is that sign of an arriving aesthetic upon the back of which things become as new, new desires, new lusts, new sympathies and powers. No one is talking about going back in time to 1920s era, but in the modern world there exists the choice to aim oneself either toward that from which the creative impulse came, even if the aim is itself the child of this impulse and/or its "refinement", or toward what alone may exist solely because the impulse exists, as a greater measure of its vitality, of a higher possibility. We don't want to get mired in the past. That is what we think you are doing. Abandon all hope, ye who enter here. Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-29-2013, 01:34 AM Post: #133 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising I'm getting mired in Marx. You keep ignoring that point. I will keep bringing it up. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-29-2013, 01:35 AM Post: #134 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising What you are saying has merit, but you're taking it back to the Greeks. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-29-2013, 01:37 AM Post: #135 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising Quote: as a greater measure of its vitality, of a higher possibility. Please give me an example . How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-29-2013, 02:55 AM (This post was last modified: 05-29-2013 02:57 AM by pezer.) Post: #136 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Advertising Me first, then you: Art is the bringing up of impulses and drives. Advertising is the presenting of a product (usually through art). If it's anything else, blow my mind. Go Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-29-2013, 05:46 AM Post: #137 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising Marx How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-29-2013, 06:01 AM Post: #138 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising I could just as easily say 'Advertising is the bringing up of impulses and desires'. Selling stuff (online) is intractably connected to artistic endeavours. The only kind of art you are taking about would be someone in a cave doing it for no one else. No one does that. If its online, it's selling. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-29-2013, 06:03 AM Post: #139 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Advertising Why can't you say the words? You are presenting a product. Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-29-2013, 06:05 AM Post: #140 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Advertising And remember, I'm not making a moralistic point. I care fuck all if art dies tomorrow, today. Science is found in the question "how do you know?" RE: Advertising Ok, fuck the pproduct. Now it's me being silly. Youa re selling. We agree. Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-29-2013, 06:07 AM Post: #142 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Advertising Does it not matter what it is you are selling when you are selling? Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-29-2013, 06:08 AM Post: #143 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Advertising Fuck that too. Tell me, what exactly are you selling me right n- Ok. I'm starting to get it... Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-29-2013, 06:09 AM Post: #144 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Advertising Yes. What exactly are you trying to sell me right now? If you can't tell me, if you have to dance around it with art, I am deeply suspicious that I wouldn't want it if I knew what it was. That is a point against advertising, not for it. Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-29-2013, 07:22 AM Post: #145 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising Yes I will say it: advertising is selling something. I don't deny that. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-29-2013, 07:24 AM Post: #146 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising Everything online is selling. Even this post. I want you to respond. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-29-2013, 08:37 AM Post: #147 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Advertising The problem with selling is the end it denotes. Words for activity tend to include an end-game, and the end-game of selling is to exchange money for whatever. Is that the end game? Isn't money itself designed to be only a middleman? Is it the process itself that you are seeking to rejuvinate, change somehow? Or is the reason you want me to respond not the money endgame of a website's functioning? Me, I am not here to sell anything. Maybe that's why I constantly feel like I'm running into walls. I'm not here to buy, either. I'm here to criticize and collaborate. To exchange perceptions. Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-29-2013, 08:39 AM Post: #148 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Advertising Philosophical and non-philosophical discussion does not function by the lose something, get something paradigm. It works by showing something and being shown something. The production of value happens inside the philosopher or non-philosopher's head. Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-29-2013, 10:16 AM Post: #149 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising Right. So I have concluded I cannot convey this idea to yours or my satisfaction. Not sure where we go from here. Prob just to talking about something else. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-29-2013, 10:53 AM Post: #150 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Advertising Q, we have stated our belief plainly and with detail. You have stated yours plainly as well, but have given precious little detail. Perhaps we can take it from there. Science is found in the question "how do you know?" ___________ " The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. " - Thucydides Back to top Go down View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online Fixed Cross Tower Tower Posts : 1237 Join date : 2011-11-09 PostSubject: Re: Natural World Ashes Thu Aug 01, 2013 1:24 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster RE: Advertising Or maybe if I lay out for you my fears and hopes here we can move forward. My fear is that your project might be a sexy way to avoid the real work at hand, which is to break down the barriers of stupidity and advance human along its present potential. My hopes are that advertising can be transformed in the way you are telling us it can be, or that, made smaller, it can act as another force in the field instead of the tyrannical mind-nanny it is today. Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-29-2013, 11:08 AM Post: #152 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising Dude we're on page 15. I've stated the detail as much as I can. I am not holding out on you. It's just that you guys keep asking for an example of an advertisement, but you refuse to accept my example, which is a movie or a website. Which one doesn't matter. At all. I get the feeling you are convinced this will be solved by some example. It won't, so I'm unsure why you guy keep asking for one. It may be that I cannot explain this because I have not fleshed it out myself enough. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-29-2013, 11:54 AM Post: #153 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Advertising I think that's the case. I took your examples, they just seem to me like examples of exactly what I don't want, what doesn't seem to be what you are proposing. Do flesh it out, don't let yourself be dragged into some other person's agenda. Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-29-2013, 12:13 PM (This post was last modified: 05-29-2013 12:13 PM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #154 ChainOfBeing Offline Probationer Posts: 178 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 4 RE: Advertising Sure Q, if you define advertising as "to show someone something" then yeah, it's all advertising. But then again, in so doing all you have accomplished is playing around with mere semantics. I have been trying to go deeper, unfortunately you seem not to want to come along. Abandon all hope, ye who enter here. Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-29-2013, 03:21 PM Post: #155 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising Dude, we'd get along a lot better if you just assume we're all of around the same intelligence, we're all willing, and we're all more or less as well read. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-29-2013, 03:21 PM Post: #156 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising (05-29-2013 11:54 AM)pezer Wrote: I think that's the case. I took your examples, they just seem to me like examples of exactly what I don't want, what doesn't seem to be what you are proposing. Do flesh it out, don't let yourself be dragged into some other person's agenda. You don't want a website? How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-29-2013, 03:46 PM Post: #157 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Advertising OK, talk to us about the Marx connection again. If anything, it seems to me that advertising just follows the cycle of monopoly of ideas. Is that what you want to work for? Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-29-2013, 05:02 PM Post: #158 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Advertising I think you put too much stock in our shared knowledge. ChainOfBeing and I recognize intelligence by how that shit is translated, with each philosopher or non-philosopher's art, into written word. If we seem like we are just trying to sound smart, it is because that is the only way we recognize smart. We want you to tell us your plan, no refer us to the source theory that supports it. Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-30-2013, 06:04 AM (This post was last modified: 05-30-2013 06:06 AM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #159 ChainOfBeing Offline Probationer Posts: 178 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 4 RE: Advertising (05-29-2013 03:21 PM)Q Wrote: Dude, we'd get along a lot better if you just assume we're all of around the same intelligence, we're all willing, and we're all more or less as well read. On what basis would I justifiably assume any such thing? You would rather get along than uncover truth? Know that you ascribe pathological motives to my writings here which do not exist. I am concerned with truth and not with your, or my own, feelings. Do me the honor of being likewise motivated, if you are able. And maybe consider starting by answering those 7 questions that I put to you. Why have you not answered them yet? Abandon all hope, ye who enter here. Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-30-2013, 06:06 AM Post: #160 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising I will explain it. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising Basically, Marx says that all art, no matter what you think, is reduced down to socio-economic forces. There is no "pure" art for Marx. I think you can certainly attack this view, but others have and they haven't faired all that well. I have written numerous times about how Virgina Woolf somewhat does disprove Marx indirectly, but thus far no one has touched on her reasoning. You all just keep saying, "Yeah, pure art is possible." Is it? Unless you are alone in a cave? How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-30-2013, 08:08 AM Post: #162 Fixed Cross Offline Neophyte Posts: 466 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 8 Warning Level: 0% RE: Advertising Whereas I wonder why Q has not answered Chains questions, I disagree with the idea that advertising is always selling something. That's too narrow. I'm sure you all know the phrase "there's no such thing as bad publicity". Advertising is publicity, which means: making it known that some/thing/one exists. And if you think about this deeper, practically - how else are you ever going to communicate about something that is of value to you, without advertising it? It's usually impossible. You're most of the time going to show, convey just a detail, a segment, a part of whatever it is you're trying to draw attention to. Selectivity is not primarily due to betrayal, deceit. It's primarily due to lack of time and space, lack of attention-span, lack of brainpower, lack of opportunity to tell the whole truth. A good advertisement, in my eyes, is one that conveys an idea that in turn evokes the desire to find out the whole truth to which that idea pertains. Q, you're not one known to show the back of your tongue. Sometimes you'll need to do just that to win people's trust. So, sometimes advertising isn't enough. Is it fair to say that right now what you're doing is advertising advertising? Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Edit this post Delete this post Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-30-2013, 08:13 AM (This post was last modified: 05-30-2013 08:15 AM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #163 Fixed Cross Offline Neophyte Posts: 466 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 8 Warning Level: 0% RE: Advertising From what I read, they're not saying that pure art (whatever that is) is possible, they're rather not agreeing that advertising is art at all. The point is not that it's impure art, but that it departs from a totally different basis. But then we do get into a shady area. Art generally works to draw the attention to something - most generally and rudimentarily, to the mindset of the artist - and in case of much commercial art, to certain values, a certain lifestyle, certain impulses... Concerning most of the questions philosophy can ask I have come to a pretty satisfying answer. But on "what is art?" I feel in my bones that I can not give a clear cut definition. Perhaps it is the question that needs to be addressed here, boring, age old and impossible as it may be. Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Edit this post Delete this post Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-30-2013, 10:38 AM (This post was last modified: 05-30-2013 10:39 AM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #164 ChainOfBeing Offline Probationer Posts: 178 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 4 RE: Advertising Art is a process of maintaining fidelity to something, to truth, to an appeal of openness and to the cathartic creative act. Art produces a change in the artist and in the viewer of the art, art fundamentally changes the way that we see, think, believe, feel, value. Real art will fucking change your life. Art is profound, whereas advertising takes the shortest route and is bent upon efficiency. Efficiency of manipulating the viewer to some end. Advertising is impossible without this desire to influence, whereas art can and often is done with no such desire to influence. Where art achieves influence it is often a secondary thing and perhaps not even intended by the artist. Where advertising incorporates a more artistic approach it only becomes more like art and less like advertising. The middle-ground between art and advertising, where these overlap, are only the exceptions that most prove the rule, that most show the real differences between the two. Art may become political, it may emerge from a political truth, but its aim is never only to influence the politics of something. Art is always done at least in part for its own sake, because of the cathartic need, the need for freedom, the creative spirit, and in obedience to some aesthetic or intellectual standard even if only implicitly. Advertising, to the contrary, must have this political intention, it cannot merely emerge from a political truth but must aim toward the political---influence is the only reason that any advertising is ever created. Not so with art. Abandon all hope, ye who enter here. Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-30-2013, 10:42 AM (This post was last modified: 05-30-2013 10:44 AM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #165 ChainOfBeing Offline Probationer Posts: 178 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 4 RE: Advertising In this way, we can see advertising as a more recent and distorted offspring of art. Advertising has taken art and removed from it the impulse to truth, the need for freedom, the cathartic effect, and the need to open up and maintain a fidelity to the void. Advertising therefore is the corruption of art toward ends which art itself may end up serving, but in its own way, and only as a secondary effect to its primary motive-cause. Advertising removes the core of art and uses the image, the form of it to ends anathema to art itself; art does not need to prescribe its own end, its own effect, rather art deliberately must abstain from doing so if it is to remain authentic, if it is to "groove in an aesthetic" and act as a disclosure of that which is concealed. Abandon all hope, ye who enter here. Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-30-2013, 01:14 PM (This post was last modified: 05-30-2013 01:14 PM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #166 ChainOfBeing Offline Probationer Posts: 178 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 4 RE: Advertising In removing the core of art while retaining its form and something of its impulse, advertising has both liberated self-valuing from any historical boundary, as well as given birth to the greatest monster ever known to mankind. Abandon all hope, ye who enter here. Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-30-2013, 03:04 PM Post: #167 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising Quote: Advertising has taken art and removed from it the impulse to truth, the need for freedom, the cathartic effect, and the need to open up and maintain a fidelity to the void. Again, we're not in the Bernays era anymore. Not completely, at least. I put it to you this way: do you think advertising has changed since the internet has hit? How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-30-2013, 04:09 PM Post: #168 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Advertising (05-30-2013 03:04 PM)Q Wrote: Again, we're not in the Bernays era anymore. Not completely, at least. In what way? Btw, yes, I feel it has gotten more personal, like in that creepy ass show we all watched that one time with the guy living in the world sorrounded by screens. You know, the sequel to the pig fucking politician. Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-31-2013, 10:22 AM (This post was last modified: 05-31-2013 10:22 AM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #169 ChainOfBeing Offline Probationer Posts: 178 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 4 RE: Advertising To be completely honest Q, I see no reason to continue engaging you further here. It isn't just that you seem unable or unwilling to acknowledge or engage my points (or to answer the questions which I carefully constructed with the aim of furthering this discussion and getting to know your position better), but that you truly seem motivated by something other than honest disclosure of truth. I would say you have an agenda to push, but then again I don't know you that well really. You may just be ignorant of what you are doing. This is not a game to me, I am not here to play chess. This is serious, this fucking matters. Abandon all hope, ye who enter here. Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-31-2013, 10:53 AM Post: #170 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising You think I am some agent provacateur or something? Lol you must be completely paranoid. Nice. I like it. As for this discussion, sure we can end it. I already said that a couple posts ago. I would suggest you guys read Marx. That is pretty key here and it doesn't sound like that part is clicking. In the meantime I will refactor this argument Also if I am making a reference you do not get, just tell me. Instead of saying I'm not answering questions when the answers (or lack thereof) depend on the references. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-31-2013, 10:59 AM Post: #172 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising You guys should put yourself in my position. All I am seeing is "Art is like...moving people's emotions, and stuff." I'm plenty serious but it kinda sounds like you're giving me your personal definition for why art is. Let's skip that and just use actual philosophical stances. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-31-2013, 11:01 AM Post: #173 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising If you want to go with some Aristotlean virtue thing, then why cannot I bring up Marx, who came after and addressed all that? Why can't we move from Bernays era into a new one? Why are we being held back by you guys' personal views that advertising in the 20's is the same as now. It's fucking not. The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must. - Thucydides see it now? Thunderbolt steers all things. - Heraclitus Fixed Cross Doric Usurper Posts: 6695 Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:53 am ### Re: New Moon Ashes RE: Advertising Or maybe if I lay out for you my fears and hopes here we can move forward. My fear is that your project might be a sexy way to avoid the real work at hand, which is to break down the barriers of stupidity and advance human along its present potential. My hopes are that advertising can be transformed in the way you are telling us it can be, or that, made smaller, it can act as another force in the field instead of the tyrannical mind-nanny it is today. Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-29-2013, 11:08 AM Post: #152 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising Dude we're on page 15. I've stated the detail as much as I can. I am not holding out on you. It's just that you guys keep asking for an example of an advertisement, but you refuse to accept my example, which is a movie or a website. Which one doesn't matter. At all. I get the feeling you are convinced this will be solved by some example. It won't, so I'm unsure why you guy keep asking for one. It may be that I cannot explain this because I have not fleshed it out myself enough. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-29-2013, 11:54 AM Post: #153 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Advertising I think that's the case. I took your examples, they just seem to me like examples of exactly what I don't want, what doesn't seem to be what you are proposing. Do flesh it out, don't let yourself be dragged into some other person's agenda. Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-29-2013, 12:13 PM (This post was last modified: 05-29-2013 12:13 PM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #154 ChainOfBeing Offline Probationer Posts: 178 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 4 RE: Advertising Sure Q, if you define advertising as "to show someone something" then yeah, it's all advertising. But then again, in so doing all you have accomplished is playing around with mere semantics. I have been trying to go deeper, unfortunately you seem not to want to come along. Abandon all hope, ye who enter here. Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-29-2013, 03:21 PM Post: #155 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising Dude, we'd get along a lot better if you just assume we're all of around the same intelligence, we're all willing, and we're all more or less as well read. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-29-2013, 03:21 PM Post: #156 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising (05-29-2013 11:54 AM)pezer Wrote: I think that's the case. I took your examples, they just seem to me like examples of exactly what I don't want, what doesn't seem to be what you are proposing. Do flesh it out, don't let yourself be dragged into some other person's agenda. You don't want a website? How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-29-2013, 03:46 PM Post: #157 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Advertising OK, talk to us about the Marx connection again. If anything, it seems to me that advertising just follows the cycle of monopoly of ideas. Is that what you want to work for? Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-29-2013, 05:02 PM Post: #158 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Advertising I think you put too much stock in our shared knowledge. ChainOfBeing and I recognize intelligence by how that shit is translated, with each philosopher or non-philosopher's art, into written word. If we seem like we are just trying to sound smart, it is because that is the only way we recognize smart. We want you to tell us your plan, no refer us to the source theory that supports it. Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-30-2013, 06:04 AM (This post was last modified: 05-30-2013 06:06 AM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #159 ChainOfBeing Offline Probationer Posts: 178 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 4 RE: Advertising (05-29-2013 03:21 PM)Q Wrote: Dude, we'd get along a lot better if you just assume we're all of around the same intelligence, we're all willing, and we're all more or less as well read. On what basis would I justifiably assume any such thing? You would rather get along than uncover truth? Know that you ascribe pathological motives to my writings here which do not exist. I am concerned with truth and not with your, or my own, feelings. Do me the honor of being likewise motivated, if you are able. And maybe consider starting by answering those 7 questions that I put to you. Why have you not answered them yet? Abandon all hope, ye who enter here. Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-30-2013, 06:06 AM Post: #160 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising I will explain it. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising Basically, Marx says that all art, no matter what you think, is reduced down to socio-economic forces. There is no "pure" art for Marx. I think you can certainly attack this view, but others have and they haven't faired all that well. I have written numerous times about how Virgina Woolf somewhat does disprove Marx indirectly, but thus far no one has touched on her reasoning. You all just keep saying, "Yeah, pure art is possible." Is it? Unless you are alone in a cave? How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-30-2013, 08:08 AM Post: #162 Fixed Cross Offline Neophyte Posts: 466 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 8 Warning Level: 0% RE: Advertising Whereas I wonder why Q has not answered Chains questions, I disagree with the idea that advertising is always selling something. That's too narrow. I'm sure you all know the phrase "there's no such thing as bad publicity". Advertising is publicity, which means: making it known that some/thing/one exists. And if you think about this deeper, practically - how else are you ever going to communicate about something that is of value to you, without advertising it? It's usually impossible. You're most of the time going to show, convey just a detail, a segment, a part of whatever it is you're trying to draw attention to. Selectivity is not primarily due to betrayal, deceit. It's primarily due to lack of time and space, lack of attention-span, lack of brainpower, lack of opportunity to tell the whole truth. A good advertisement, in my eyes, is one that conveys an idea that in turn evokes the desire to find out the whole truth to which that idea pertains. Q, you're not one known to show the back of your tongue. Sometimes you'll need to do just that to win people's trust. So, sometimes advertising isn't enough. Is it fair to say that right now what you're doing is advertising advertising? Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Edit this post Delete this post Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-30-2013, 08:13 AM (This post was last modified: 05-30-2013 08:15 AM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #163 Fixed Cross Offline Neophyte Posts: 466 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 8 Warning Level: 0% RE: Advertising From what I read, they're not saying that pure art (whatever that is) is possible, they're rather not agreeing that advertising is art at all. The point is not that it's impure art, but that it departs from a totally different basis. But then we do get into a shady area. Art generally works to draw the attention to something - most generally and rudimentarily, to the mindset of the artist - and in case of much commercial art, to certain values, a certain lifestyle, certain impulses... Concerning most of the questions philosophy can ask I have come to a pretty satisfying answer. But on "what is art?" I feel in my bones that I can not give a clear cut definition. Perhaps it is the question that needs to be addressed here, boring, age old and impossible as it may be. Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Edit this post Delete this post Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-30-2013, 10:38 AM (This post was last modified: 05-30-2013 10:39 AM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #164 ChainOfBeing Offline Probationer Posts: 178 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 4 RE: Advertising Art is a process of maintaining fidelity to something, to truth, to an appeal of openness and to the cathartic creative act. Art produces a change in the artist and in the viewer of the art, art fundamentally changes the way that we see, think, believe, feel, value. Real art will fucking change your life. Art is profound, whereas advertising takes the shortest route and is bent upon efficiency. Efficiency of manipulating the viewer to some end. Advertising is impossible without this desire to influence, whereas art can and often is done with no such desire to influence. Where art achieves influence it is often a secondary thing and perhaps not even intended by the artist. Where advertising incorporates a more artistic approach it only becomes more like art and less like advertising. The middle-ground between art and advertising, where these overlap, are only the exceptions that most prove the rule, that most show the real differences between the two. Art may become political, it may emerge from a political truth, but its aim is never only to influence the politics of something. Art is always done at least in part for its own sake, because of the cathartic need, the need for freedom, the creative spirit, and in obedience to some aesthetic or intellectual standard even if only implicitly. Advertising, to the contrary, must have this political intention, it cannot merely emerge from a political truth but must aim toward the political---influence is the only reason that any advertising is ever created. Not so with art. Abandon all hope, ye who enter here. Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-30-2013, 10:42 AM (This post was last modified: 05-30-2013 10:44 AM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #165 ChainOfBeing Offline Probationer Posts: 178 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 4 RE: Advertising In this way, we can see advertising as a more recent and distorted offspring of art. Advertising has taken art and removed from it the impulse to truth, the need for freedom, the cathartic effect, and the need to open up and maintain a fidelity to the void. Advertising therefore is the corruption of art toward ends which art itself may end up serving, but in its own way, and only as a secondary effect to its primary motive-cause. Advertising removes the core of art and uses the image, the form of it to ends anathema to art itself; art does not need to prescribe its own end, its own effect, rather art deliberately must abstain from doing so if it is to remain authentic, if it is to "groove in an aesthetic" and act as a disclosure of that which is concealed. Abandon all hope, ye who enter here. Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-30-2013, 01:14 PM (This post was last modified: 05-30-2013 01:14 PM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #166 ChainOfBeing Offline Probationer Posts: 178 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 4 RE: Advertising In removing the core of art while retaining its form and something of its impulse, advertising has both liberated self-valuing from any historical boundary, as well as given birth to the greatest monster ever known to mankind. Abandon all hope, ye who enter here. Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-30-2013, 03:04 PM Post: #167 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising Quote: Advertising has taken art and removed from it the impulse to truth, the need for freedom, the cathartic effect, and the need to open up and maintain a fidelity to the void. Again, we're not in the Bernays era anymore. Not completely, at least. I put it to you this way: do you think advertising has changed since the internet has hit? How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-30-2013, 04:09 PM Post: #168 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Advertising (05-30-2013 03:04 PM)Q Wrote: Again, we're not in the Bernays era anymore. Not completely, at least. In what way? Btw, yes, I feel it has gotten more personal, like in that creepy ass show we all watched that one time with the guy living in the world sorrounded by screens. You know, the sequel to the pig fucking politician. Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-31-2013, 10:22 AM (This post was last modified: 05-31-2013 10:22 AM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #169 ChainOfBeing Offline Probationer Posts: 178 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 4 RE: Advertising To be completely honest Q, I see no reason to continue engaging you further here. It isn't just that you seem unable or unwilling to acknowledge or engage my points (or to answer the questions which I carefully constructed with the aim of furthering this discussion and getting to know your position better), but that you truly seem motivated by something other than honest disclosure of truth. I would say you have an agenda to push, but then again I don't know you that well really. You may just be ignorant of what you are doing. This is not a game to me, I am not here to play chess. This is serious, this fucking matters. Abandon all hope, ye who enter here. Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-31-2013, 10:53 AM Post: #170 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising You think I am some agent provacateur or something? Lol you must be completely paranoid. Nice. I like it. As for this discussion, sure we can end it. I already said that a couple posts ago. I would suggest you guys read Marx. That is pretty key here and it doesn't sound like that part is clicking. In the meantime I will refactor this argument Also if I am making a reference you do not get, just tell me. Instead of saying I'm not answering questions when the answers (or lack thereof) depend on the references. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-31-2013, 10:59 AM Post: #172 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising You guys should put yourself in my position. All I am seeing is "Art is like...moving people's emotions, and stuff." I'm plenty serious but it kinda sounds like you're giving me your personal definition for why art is. Let's skip that and just use actual philosophical stances. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-31-2013, 11:01 AM Post: #173 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising If you want to go with some Aristotlean virtue thing, then why cannot I bring up Marx, who came after and addressed all that? Why can't we move from Bernays era into a new one? Why are we being held back by you guys' personal views that advertising in the 20's is the same as now. It's fucking not. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-31-2013, 12:31 PM (This post was last modified: 05-31-2013 12:31 PM by pezer.) Post: #174 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Advertising ¡You have yet to fucking make a point at all to explain that! Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-31-2013, 12:33 PM (This post was last modified: 05-31-2013 12:34 PM by pezer.) Post: #175 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Advertising I am trying here man, I honestly am. I could not be more curious as to what redeeming thing you see in advertising. I reallyreallyreallytreallyreally want to know. But your defensiveness is like every time we say something to try to understand, we get hit over the fucking head with a club. It hurts. We do it because we want to help you help us get it. Please, stop beating us over the head with a club. Explain your position. To go back to the 20's in a different way: man up and explain your position. Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-31-2013, 01:06 PM (This post was last modified: 05-31-2013 01:10 PM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #176 ChainOfBeing Offline Probationer Posts: 178 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 4 RE: Advertising Q, yeah, I get Marx, I've read Marx. So what? Marx didn't even fucking write about art, as far as I have ever read or seen. It is not central to his ideas at all. If modern advertising began with Bernays, then what the hell are you talking about with "There is no "pure" art for Marx. "? You got some quotes or something to back that up, or at least a clear and rational argument? How are you connecting any of this together? Abandon all hope, ye who enter here. Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-31-2013, 01:10 PM Post: #177 ChainOfBeing Offline Probationer Posts: 178 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 4 RE: Advertising I don't even care about Marx, honestly. If you want to create an actual argument using some of his ideas, that would be great, I would love to get into that. But you have not done that, not at all. As Pezer said, you are highly defensive, you continue to just beat us over the head with, well nothing really. Where is your substance? Why do you hide? Abandon all hope, ye who enter here. Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-31-2013, 01:28 PM (This post was last modified: 05-31-2013 01:29 PM by Q.) Post: #178 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising Look, I don't know what to tell you. Marx isn't all proletarians and revolutions. If you think he hasn't written about art, you are wrong. For like the twenty-seventh time, this is the argument: Marx explains how there is no "pure" art in the sense that you are describing because you can never escape socio-political contexts that bind people. Your definition of art: Quote: Art sells itself. Advertising sells X. For Marx, this is non-sensical. Quote: Their superb knowledge of world art helped Marx and Engels to elaborate genuinely scientific aesthetic principles. The founders of scientific communism were thus not only able to answer the complex aesthetic questions of the previous age, but also to elaborate a fundamentally new system of aesthetic science. They did so only as a result of the great revolutionary upheaval they had brought about in philosophy by creating dialectical and historical materialism and laying down the foundations for the materialist conception of history. Though Marx and Engels have left no major writings on art, their views in this field, when collected together, form a harmonious whole which is a logical extension of their scientific and revolutionary Weltanschauung. They explained the nature of art and its paths of development, its tasks in society and social aims. Marxist aesthetics, like the whole teaching of Marx and Engels, are subordinated to the struggle for the communist reorganisation of society. When developing their theory of aesthetics, Marx and Engels naturally based themselves on the achievements of their predecessors. But the main aesthetic problems — and above all the problem of the relationship between art and reality — were solved by them in a fundamentally new way, on the basis of materialist dialectics. Idealist aesthetics considered art as a reproduction of the ideal, standing over and* above actual reality. The origin of any art form, its development, flowering, and decay, all remained incomprehensible to the art theoreticians and historians of the pre-Marxian period, inasmuch as they studied these in isolation from man’s social existence. Marx and Engels considered it absolutely impossible to understand art and literature proceeding only from their internal laws of development. In their opinion, the essence, origin, development, and social role of art could only be understood through analysis of the social system as a whole, within which the economic factor — the development, of productive forces in complex interaction with production relations — plays the decisive role. Thus art, as defined by Marx and Engels, is one of the forms of social consciousness and it therefore follows that the reasons for its changes should be sought in the social existence of men. Marx and Engels revealed the social nature of art and its development in the course of history and showed that in a society with class antagonisms it was influenced by class ‘contradictions and by the politics and ideologies of particular classes. In other words, if you are poor, you are selling the poor. If you are rich, you are selling the rich. I don't know what is so hard to get about this. It's a super old argument. All art, commerce, communication, it's all theoretically been linked. But now it's happening in actuality. In the very system that we live in. If you want me to prescribe to a view of art that was surpassed by a guy with a Santa beard 150 years ago, it's not going to happen. You will have to do better than the basic dichotomy you are presenting here. Marx knocks that shit down. Quote: Art sells itself. Advertising sells X. I mean just read it. Are you satisfied with that? I'm not. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-31-2013, 01:46 PM Post: #179 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising Quote: I am trying here man, I honestly am. I could not be more curious as to what redeeming thing you see in advertising. But I don't see any real redeeming part to it. I keep saying this. Go back and read the first couple posts. I say that I like to manipulate people (what artist doesn't) but I do not say that I find advertising redeeming. I say that it needs a serious overhaul. It's like you guys have just made up your mind about advertising as completely beyond saving, and then when I ask you OK, what alternative is there? You go on about some anarchist thing, as if people won't still need to buy and sell things. If anything, I am the serious one here. I have thought about this carefully. It comes to to two things: 1.) Is advertising going anywhere, even in some anarchist thing? No. It's not. 2.) Given the above, there needs to be a change in the advertising industry for the better. Or it will continue to suck. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-31-2013, 02:01 PM Post: #180 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Advertising That is a fine argument, but I have already answered it. This is the form my answer takes: My philosophical studies have led me to believe that, yes, advertising is beyond saving; yet I have changed my mind radically enough about enough things to promise my help to you anyways, let's do this shit, let's overhaul advertising. About Marx, it took me a very long time, but I finally understood that his system has borders as well, there is possible human action outside his framework. Anarchist literature abounds. Art might not have a place there, this I know, and I am willing to make the sacrifice. In my mind, you are right that art is in the end part of the Marxist zeitgeist process, a way to channel both the impulses of the viewer and the artist that allows for "teh system" to sustain "itself." A way to make an animal ccivilized in the capitalist flavour. An anarchist doesn't necessarily believe in primitivism, but s/he believes in an overhaul of the sublimating devices that is based on human scientific though in lieu of dumb fucking luck. In other words, no, I do not believe that selling-buying is necessary at all. All we need is for the cream of the intelligence crop to decide this is true and stop slaving over systems they sub-consciously, if not consciously, know to be below their intellectual capacities. Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Along these lines, here is a video series I made. It lasts about 56 mins total. [flash(0,0)/flash] Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-31-2013, 02:09 PM Post: #182 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising Quote: All we need is for the cream of the intelligence crop to decide this is true and stop slaving over systems they sub-consciously, if not consciously, know to be below their intellectual capacities. What about everyone else? The people on this forum represent like 6% of society. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-31-2013, 02:12 PM Post: #183 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising And how do you expect to make the global 6% do that? This is why, for me, this always comes back to, ta da, material stuff. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-31-2013, 02:26 PM Post: #184 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Advertising That 6% is the only one that really makes decisions on consciousness. Everybody else just follows. We are the 94%'s future. Material does not = the current status quo. That's just what the propaganda is designed to make us feel. By us, I mean the 6%. People in charge don't like change, that is why so many intellectuals have historically taken up arms against them. Yet, as I have said, arms are no longer necessary. Though those people in charge don't see it, the potential our thought has is not dangerous to anybody. I had a dog once, he was brought in by my mom from many years of living in an abusive family. Everytime I approached him with the intention to pet him and be nice to him at first was met with uncontrollable fear and pissing all over everywhere. Did I decide to beat him, but in a better way because that's the only thing he would accept? The only way I could get him to eat the food I served him? No. Little by little, by being myself, I showed him there was no danger. Eventually, we became close friends. Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-31-2013, 02:28 PM Post: #185 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Advertising The world is ours now, Q. We can do what we want with it. Your employers' employers will all be dead 30 years from now. What seeds will we plant? Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-31-2013, 02:54 PM (This post was last modified: 05-31-2013 02:59 PM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #186 ChainOfBeing Offline Probationer Posts: 178 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 4 RE: Advertising (05-31-2013 01:28 PM)Q Wrote: Look, I don't know what to tell you. Marx isn't all proletarians and revolutions. If you think he hasn't written about art, you are wrong. For like the twenty-seventh time, this is the argument: Marx explains how there is no "pure" art in the sense that you are describing because you can never escape socio-political contexts that bind people. Your definition of art: Quote: Art sells itself. Advertising sells X. For Marx, this is non-sensical. Yeah, because that isn't my argument, either. You are not reading closely enough. Quote: Quote: Their superb knowledge of world art helped Marx and Engels to elaborate genuinely scientific aesthetic principles. The founders of scientific communism were thus not only able to answer the complex aesthetic questions of the previous age, but also to elaborate a fundamentally new system of aesthetic science. They did so only as a result of the great revolutionary upheaval they had brought about in philosophy by creating dialectical and historical materialism and laying down the foundations for the materialist conception of history. Though Marx and Engels have left no major writings on art, their views in this field, when collected together, form a harmonious whole which is a logical extension of their scientific and revolutionary Weltanschauung. They explained the nature of art and its paths of development, its tasks in society and social aims. Marxist aesthetics, like the whole teaching of Marx and Engels, are subordinated to the struggle for the communist reorganisation of society. When developing their theory of aesthetics, Marx and Engels naturally based themselves on the achievements of their predecessors. But the main aesthetic problems — and above all the problem of the relationship between art and reality — were solved by them in a fundamentally new way, on the basis of materialist dialectics. Idealist aesthetics considered art as a reproduction of the ideal, standing over and* above actual reality. The origin of any art form, its development, flowering, and decay, all remained incomprehensible to the art theoreticians and historians of the pre-Marxian period, inasmuch as they studied these in isolation from man’s social existence. Marx and Engels considered it absolutely impossible to understand art and literature proceeding only from their internal laws of development. In their opinion, the essence, origin, development, and social role of art could only be understood through analysis of the social system as a whole, within which the economic factor — the development, of productive forces in complex interaction with production relations — plays the decisive role. Thus art, as defined by Marx and Engels, is one of the forms of social consciousness and it therefore follows that the reasons for its changes should be sought in the social existence of men. Marx and Engels revealed the social nature of art and its development in the course of history and showed that in a society with class antagonisms it was influenced by class ‘contradictions and by the politics and ideologies of particular classes. In other words, if you are poor, you are selling the poor. If you are rich, you are selling the rich. Yeah, except that Marx never said that. His writing is ripe for reinterpretation at the hands of many (over)zealous perspectives bent on turning his thought into whatever they want it to be. If all you have is some supposed secondary lit., that is pretty shallow. Like I said I have read Marx, and I can tell you that "what is art?" is not an issue he tackles, ever. Is not something essential to his ideas. Granted, we can attempt to infer whatever art might or might not be given what we do know of his system. But what the fuck is the point of that, anyway? The only pathos that could sustain such an endeavor is... worship. Is that where you are coming from? The sum of your argument is a bit of secondary literature about what Marx probably thought about something that he never actually wrote about? Um. Now, if you knew even a bit about value ontology or tectonics, you would see how this view supposedly attributed to Marx is not at all alien to where I am coming from, in fact it is a part of my overall considerations. Of course art emerges from an historica-cultural milieu in which it is embedded and to which its effect will tend to return. But this does not mean that art is nothing except this self-movement of historical capture, not at all. Like all things art takes part in that which conditions it, and is the sum of these conditioning elements and will reflect these. And as I have already written in this topic, art is a process, it is a movement. A processes maintaining fidelity to the void, however and wherever that happens to appear. Every moment in history has, well, a historical element. Yeah, it's pretty fucking obvious. So what is this big deal you are making out of it? If you want me to address this argument you (seem to be) making, here I am doing you that service. This idea that art is nothing but the secondary emergence of historical forces that can do nothing but sell those forces themselves, is absurd. This is nothing but unjustified reductionism that does not understand the essence of art at all: art discloses its historical milieu, among other things, and is a process of movement toward something, emerging as the effect of an inclination toward deeper and more authentic perspective and disclosure of truth. Art turns the status quo upside down. Does advertising do that? Of course not, just the opposite. Quote: I don't know what is so hard to get about this. It's a super old argument. All art, commerce, communication, it's all theoretically been linked. But now it's happening in actuality. In the very system that we live in. If you want me to prescribe to a view of art that was surpassed by a guy with a Santa beard 150 years ago, it's not going to happen. You will have to do better than the basic dichotomy you are presenting here. Marx knocks that shit down. No, Marx never "knocks down" the idea that modern advertising and art are two essentially different endeavors. First of all because modern advertising never existed when Marx was alive, second of all because Marx never even wrote about "what is art?" to begin with, as I have already said. Quote: Quote: Art sells itself. Advertising sells X. I mean just read it. Are you satisfied with that? I'm not. Of course not. Good thing I never said that. I have already addressed this, you apparently have not been paying attention. Abandon all hope, ye who enter here. Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-31-2013, 03:00 PM Post: #187 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Advertising In selling itself, art sells that which is within the work, whatever combination of impressions, ideas, reflections, etc, the artist uses as well as the paint and canvas themselves, the tools and materials. In selling X, advertisement tries to exist outside of that which is within the advertisement work, and point to X, which is whatever is being sold consciously. Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-31-2013, 03:04 PM (This post was last modified: 05-31-2013 03:04 PM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #188 ChainOfBeing Offline Probationer Posts: 178 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 4 RE: Advertising My point is that using the master-signifying concept of "selling" is a mistake. The point of art, its genesis as a process, as a reflection and a creative movement, goes entirely beyond what "selling" is able to encapsulate. Anyone who has ever made art will know this. Anyone. Just go ask an artist. Abandon all hope, ye who enter here. Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-31-2013, 03:05 PM Post: #189 ChainOfBeing Offline Probationer Posts: 178 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 4 RE: Advertising It seems to me that Q and his like want to convince themselves they are artists merely because they create advertising. Well then, I guess how they want to think about their work is up to them, and who am I to shit on their parade? Abandon all hope, ye who enter here. Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-31-2013, 03:27 PM Post: #190 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising smh smh smh The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must. - Thucydides see it now? Thunderbolt steers all things. - Heraclitus Fixed Cross Doric Usurper Posts: 6695 Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:53 am ### Re: New Moon Ashes RE: Advertising Quote: No, Marx never "knocks down" the idea that modern advertising and art are two essentially different endeavors. First of all because modern advertising never existed when Marx was alive, second of all because Marx never even wrote about "what is art?" to begin with, as I have already said. You are better than this. You know that's not what I'm saying. That is, I think you know I know that modern advertising started after Marx. I'm saying: apply what he said to modern advertising. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-31-2013, 03:50 PM Post: #192 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising Quote: My point is that using the master-signifying concept of "selling" is a mistake. It's not a mistake. It's more that it can be something else. Namely, a website, an (ads free) television show, or a movie. As I have been saying numerous times now. You are just arguing semantics, and it's kind of annoying. You can call it whatever you want. If you can't use the word advertising without getting emotional, fine, but people will (for a while at least) be exchanging things for goods and services. And for that process to happen, advertising is the space between. Neither of you so far has been able to disprove that. Please do that. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 05-31-2013, 11:51 PM Post: #193 ChainOfBeing Offline Probationer Posts: 178 Joined: Dec 2012 Reputation: 4 RE: Advertising We don't need to argue against the fact that advertising happens, selling happens, and are going to continue to happen. Of course this is so. So what? What does that have to do with anything? You have completely, and I mean completely missed our point entirely. And you continue to ignore what I write to you and will not even acknowledge the questions I've asked of you. Sory Pezer, I'm done with this guy. Can't say I didn't try, though. Good luck. Abandon all hope, ye who enter here. Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 06-01-2013, 03:17 AM Post: #194 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising Quote: And you continue to ignore what I write to you and will not even acknowledge the questions I've asked of you. You keep saying this. It's not true. I've answered all of the questions that you have put to me (in time.) I honestly don't really get you here in this thread. Beyond the fact that you're entertaining some sort of 'I'm testing you' thing, which is annoying enough, you're not really making a point. All you guys have said is, "Anarchy." All right. That seems to stand at odds with you just admitting that advertising and selling is always going to happen. Answer some of my questions. If it has to happen, then what about what I am saying doesn't make sense? Either that or you and Pezer actually explain your anarchy position better. I'll be honest, it just sounds like a bunch of forum philosophy stuff. Sooner or later we have to go out into the world and do stuff. How, precisely, will anarchy change the world? How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 06-01-2013, 03:27 AM Post: #195 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Advertising I'm actually convinced at this point. It's more or less the same problem we have with JSS, all methodology and no mention or sale of what it is we are going to sell. Remember, the burden of proof is on you to defend advertising, not on us to defend our anarchy which we didn't make a thread on atm. It's complicated shit, with a lot of allies, and it's not just philosophy forum stuff because I'm practicing it, little by little, in afk life. As a general explanation of that, I have invited you down to the part of the world where anarchy may spawn, and you have said "eeewww!" Fine! I don't care, I'm not recruting anybody that doesn't want to join. On the other hand, I'm quite willing to cooperate with you in sales. But I have to know what I'm selling. Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 06-01-2013, 03:51 AM Post: #196 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Advertising If I'm selling better sales practice, I need to know what direction you have in mind. Netflix doesn't get my dick hard. Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 06-01-2013, 04:06 AM Post: #197 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising Quote: no mention or sale of what it is we are going to sell. Is that what this is all about? You want me to give you some list of items? And you are mad because I have not? Please tell me that is not what this is about. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 06-01-2013, 04:20 AM Post: #198 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Advertising I guess I want you to give me the unifying idea that will make the items on the list obvious. Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 06-01-2013, 04:21 AM Post: #199 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Advertising I understand the motivation, but what is the product of the motivation? Mine is anarchy. You mock it, but that's what it is. What's yours? Again, Netflix doesn't inflate my balloon. Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 06-01-2013, 04:23 AM Post: #200 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Advertising And yes, there is a stark possibility that one or both of us will be very disappointed by the end of this thread. Let's keep working to avoid that. RE: Advertising Why do you keep mentioning netflix? Because I mentioned one time that I did something pertaining to that at work? I think you guys can separate what I want to do with what I do for my job. You write porn ads so I don't know why you are intentionally being so obtuse and spiteful. Drop all that and just calm down. If you will, point me to your seminal work on why we should aspire for anarchy. If it's that youtube series, you will have to fix the sound. I can't listen to that weird noise for 45 minutes. I don't get anarchy. Look around you. Order runs the universe. The people who strive for anarchy and chaos, guess who those people are? Why play into that? The next couple of years will be anarchy enough. I really don't get this, "Yo, abandon everyone you know, and everything you've done thus far, and move to another country where dissidents can be droned fucked at any time?" It's so much more strategic to stay embedded and radiate truth into areas that need it, rather than put all our eggs into some basket creating some... whatever it is we're creating, totally separated from the public that, if we don't use to our advantage, will eventually crush us. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 06-01-2013, 05:48 AM Post: #202 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising These things are not mutually exclusive either. I can help you guys and do my thing. Even if you refuse to help me back lol. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 06-01-2013, 09:33 AM Post: #203 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Advertising (06-01-2013 05:48 AM)Q Wrote: These things are not mutually exclusive either. I can help you guys and do my thing. Even if you refuse to help me back lol. My first point is that yes to this, both ways. I expect your eventual help, and offer you mine. Spite is not in me, only shit-disturberness. I mentioned Neflix because you seemed to be using it as an example of what you wanted to do. As you well mention, I am very much not in a position to judge anybody. Actually, congrats on having that kinda pull, I thought it was more an aspiration (glad it's not quite) than work done. Because that's what I want to know: what direction are you hoping to take this thing? As for what you think of anarchy and order, booze is chaotic, and so are most drugs. I'm a happy drug addict, I will never accept order fully. You think I'm inviting you to some underground guerilla op? To be droned? No. The kind of thing I'm working on setting up runs only the risk of being pissed on by local authorities in the 1st world, in the 3d nobody gives enough of a shit, I will have space to do things. What I'm working on is simply the decentralization and de-regulation of economic activity. Think of me as a Tea Party asshole if you have to. Except I'm doing things instead of protesting. I guess I'll make a more detailed thread on my plans at some point soon, if nothing else to show you that anarchy is not teenage drama-queenarchy. So wait for that thread. Atm, I want to know what direction you are hoping to take this thing. I love that you say that both things can coexist because, historically, neither of our sides were willing to be anything but absolute totalitarian. This is proof of what I keep saying that we are in a different historical point now, we understand that we can live with and be different to the most essential details. Where to know? What- how do you think advertising can be changed for the better? By better I mean beyond good and evil, just less annoying to us. Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 06-01-2013, 11:39 AM Post: #204 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Advertising About the video, I'll see what I can do. For fuck's sake, I don't got the money for all that shit. I'm an anarchist satandamnit. Science is found in the question "how do you know?" Send this user a private message Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 06-01-2013, 11:48 AM Post: #205 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising I'm not sure that you need money. You might be able to run it through some sort of filter that is online maybe. But also, cheap computer mics cost like 5 bucks. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 06-01-2013, 11:49 AM Post: #206 Q Offline 5151 Posts: 469 Joined: Jun 2012 Reputation: 5 RE: Advertising I will explain the future vision you requested better tonight. Right now, I am getting drunk. How bout getting off all these antibiotics? How bout stopping eating when I'm full up? Send this user an email Send this user a private message Find all posts by this user Give Reputation to this user Quote this message in a reply Quote this post Report this post to a moderator 06-01-2013, 02:48 PM Post: #207 pezer Offline Pothead Saruman Posts: 800 Joined: Jan 2013 Reputation: 8 RE: Advertising That's a 5$ mic recording. Well, mic/camera, maybe that explains it. I'm lazy as fuck with sound editing as all else, but I am using some new drugs I was made aware of, anti-epileptics lol, to try and concentrate my way through learning it without taking, you know, mental responsibility for the weight of the process. Laziness is a vice I value.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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06-01-2013, 03:00 PM Post: #208
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This is getting into something else, but in today's day and age, interfacing with the net is one of those things I don't mind investing in.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?
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06-01-2013, 03:03 PM Post: #209
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Day in age? Day and age? I dunno.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?
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06-01-2013, 03:18 PM Post: #210
pezer Offline
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Oh dear, I'm gonna have to go find some booze of my own, I believe.

pezer Offline
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(Not meant sarcastically)
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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06-01-2013, 04:45 PM Post: #212
pezer Offline
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Fuck.

Capitalism.

That's just how I feel. Consider me the corrupted sidekick who helps out for the joke of it, plus some kind of trust.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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06-01-2013, 04:46 PM Post: #213
pezer Offline
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I can put my hate for capitalism aside for my love of productive work, too.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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06-01-2013, 05:35 PM Post: #214
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There is a big difference between capitalism and technology.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?
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06-01-2013, 05:53 PM Post: #215
pezer Offline
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I know that.

Advertising is more married to one than the other.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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06-02-2013, 05:47 AM Post: #216
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So? I mean, I would have bought a computer, etc, - the things I have personally deemed worthy - without seeing any ads.

Case in point: the more efficient you try to be with tech, the more brand loyalty diminishes. Cause you're trying to be pragmatic. There are whole websites that number crunch this stuff.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?
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06-02-2013, 11:20 AM (This post was last modified: 06-02-2013 11:20 AM by pezer.) Post: #217
pezer Offline
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That seems logical to me in an open sourcey way...

I like the way this is going.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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06-02-2013, 12:10 PM Post: #218
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Me too. My response for this thread has turned into a full on article. It may not answer all your questions but it does a better job than I have so far

___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
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Fixed Cross
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PostSubject: Re: Natural World Ashes Thu Aug 01, 2013 1:27 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Philosophos rap
Word, time to mix up some beatz in da spirit of a love of truth. Post your lyrix here, or spin a heavy beat and link dat shit. Respect.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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05-14-2013, 09:49 AM (This post was last modified: 05-14-2013 09:50 AM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #2
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RE: Philosophos rap
(05-14-2013 02:19 AM)ChainOfBeing Wrote:
Word, time to mix up some beatz in da spirit of a love of truth. Post your lyrix here, or spin a heavy beat and link dat shit. Respect.

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05-14-2013, 09:59 AM Post: #3
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RE: Philosophos rap

both of these I did the keys and my neighbor the Brazilian Machine behind the Trillion Keys the drums.
I wrote some lyrics to them but I'm not a rapper as it turns out.
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05-14-2013, 10:27 AM Post: #4
ChainOfBeing Offline
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RE: Philosophos rap
Nice, I like these, especially the second one.

Post your lyrics here if you want.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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05-17-2013, 10:56 AM Post: #5
Q Offline
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RE: Philosophos rap
Yeah. Good.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?
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05-17-2013, 11:01 AM Post: #6
Q Offline
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RE: Philosophos rap
Catchy.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?
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05-17-2013, 07:16 PM Post: #7
pezer Offline
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RE: Philosophos rap
Any way to get those in discreet audio files?
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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05-19-2013, 01:07 AM (This post was last modified: 05-19-2013 01:41 AM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #8
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RE: Philosophos rap
http://ge.tt/474i30h

My lyrics are old... I prefer words from the future.
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05-19-2013, 07:03 AM Post: #9
pezer Offline
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RE: Philosophos rap
Showdown tonight? Tomorrow?

Bring da muthafucking ruckuts?
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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05-21-2013, 08:59 PM (This post was last modified: 05-21-2013 08:59 PM by pezer.) Post: #10
pezer Offline
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RE: Philosophos rap
Rap or not, let's do this thing today. Say any time that ends before 10 hours from when I'm posting this?

RE: Philosophos rap
Okay what? A battle?
Keep your snake saddled... critters creep, chatter... riddle deep, shattered sleep patterns... eat my feces? At least your beast can reason, not like Jesus, preaching the thesis of evil, reaching the ears of no one within the walls of Sodom.... Wood rise in the East like Hillary Rodham... Boredom... whores and randomly fathomed morale like the fantom of Gotham... Lust in sloth, trust in God... roll in the mud, slurp off a slurpie, pig banks, break rank, say thanks for the stank in the back of your truck, trick trouble, lick lucks feathers at get-togethers... meadow of hard-boiled recoiling hearts and minds, there's no end to the grind, star-staring stumbling, starting to find, no gate to the End, no making amends marks a limit - this Aardvark is finished, replenished, the Earth cut up in trenches all men on the fences, who's still against us?
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05-26-2013, 05:51 AM Post: #12
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RE: Philosophos rap
Another beat
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05-26-2013, 08:24 AM Post: #13
pezer Offline
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RE: Philosophos rap
Another absolutely dope track.

The madness... It takes me down paths of paths to find the forrest, to recognize the past for the absolute wilderness it is, to see my father's face and see a child frustrated.... yo...
Growing up in Babilon is the greatest trip so far, yet primitive, like licking a broken tipped jar, like smoking big cigars,
and inhaling,
and forgeting for a moment that the lack of danger is only danger this or that way,
The word you're thinking of is "castrate"
You just want to get your caste straight... It ain't happenin... Fuck you, your crew, and your momma's cat's friends.

I don't relate to the abuser, I make him harmless like a bunny rabbit, then I call him "sir," then I smoke weed behind his back, then I tell him "yeah, sure, in a minute."
I plot beyond the imaginings of those who only see plots, and even though my lies catch up to me,
they were forged in a mill not accessible to (crack)pots.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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05-30-2013, 02:23 PM (This post was last modified: 05-30-2013 02:27 PM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #14
ChainOfBeing Offline
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RE: Philosophos rap
I wrote this to that last beat you posted, Fixed.

Fuck this line, see me in time as my ideas climb
toward this edifice, no I a'int no Sisyphus
I don't speak lies in rhymes bitch this shit is an inferno
discern as I cross-breed your need with what you can't take back
so feed on a matter of fact its a fact that you act wired
whenever you remember to slip back inside your attire
makes you believe you'd rest easy easily forgettin' your greed
heart stopped beatin' & they got you still believin' in preachin'
just like you were seven or popped pills & mopped spills
dropped frills these chills leave you penniless your soul
mind and spirit are restless
Detest this, you gotta run down the rope of your last hope
toward the darkness of what lurks without force or remorse,
But you gave your life anyway, sold your brain for a legacy
proof for a fantasy, your art for a last chance to be lazy
sit back takin' naps sippin' that death drippin' flat on your back
as that smoke makes you fly a dope high delirium whack
you remember nothin' of forever, so tricked out with fashion
you've bled it all into a serum of popular passion
serious, so you said what use for the void?
trace back suffuse it or just abuse the ignored.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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05-30-2013, 04:43 PM Post: #15
pezer Offline
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RE: Philosophos rap
Not peace but more war,
Spread the butter on the fore of the torture norm.
I have no mercy left for the pennyless souls and if
Mine be one then let it fall.

I do not dream of escape,
The darkness includes me fucking unawares, it is mine, I am theirs
Fucking gringos searching for the better sales

No, bro, holy fuck, oh, yo!
I never rebelled, my will was tragic,
like magic, not mallic, but callic,
supercalifragilisticalidallic, I don't stay down with you, fucking manic.

Time to step up to the truck of the madman's trance,
You thought you were a block of big duck puck, surrendering the mud blood's bad mind pot luck
You were mistaken, I never fall,
you are looking down and down, silly fuck, you think it's up-doors.

The big diffrence b'tween the dance and escape is that
Escape seeks an end,

I fear death because my time is short, too many dumb fucks trying to ignore the
Smart fuck ton of truck fun, son, no sun the light is out of soul of say-ton

The trap you think to cover is the gateway fo tomorrow,
there is no better way, I can offer only greater sorrow.

But once you cross the gate of death and kiss the zombie and hug your morrow,
What seems like dispair is the creative mind held back by rules engenderd by

Nothing but evo, fucking evo, nothing but evo fucking natural selection
there is no God, it just worked, and worked, and now it works only tomorrow be
cause you got scared and tranced the doors of great sorrow,

It takes hard work, the world is really poorer tha
n any criptic imagination can hope, it's dope, can you fathom, broda?
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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05-30-2013, 04:48 PM (This post was last modified: 05-30-2013 04:48 PM by pezer.) Post: #16
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RE: Philosophos rap
I hope you don't mind, but this one is definetly the dopest, and my last verses were retroactively made for it.

Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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06-01-2013, 08:03 AM (This post was last modified: 06-01-2013 09:36 AM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #17
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RE: Philosophos rap
Excellent, great lyrics ("discern as I cross-breed your need with what you can't take back" if I had to pick one line). If either of you would consider recording them, you're welcome to use the beats. I put them up for download.

Mind theories
Substance dualism, property dualism, ideal monism, reductive physicalism, non-reductive physicalism, epiphenomenalism, anomalous monism, functionalism, psychofunctionalism, panpsychism, panprotopsychism.

Can't we all just get along?
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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06-04-2013, 11:04 PM Unread post Post: #2
pezer Offline
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RE: Mind theories
I always felt the same way. That is, we can have it both ways if we gorram please, one of the happier consequences of the death of God. Nietzsche was a master of not choosing.

Which is better/worse?
This was brought up in my topic on the banality of belief, but I think it deserves its own topic.

Is it better to believe in god if god is not real, or is it better to not believe in god if god is real? Why?

Hint: if you are about to claim that you know god exists/probably exists then you'd better be able to substantiate that somehow. I don't prescribe your means of doing so, but some manner of demonstration better be forthcoming.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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06-04-2013, 10:06 PM (This post was last modified: 06-04-2013 10:08 PM by JSS.) Post: #2
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RE: Which is better/worse?
(06-04-2013 08:18 PM)ChainOfBeing Wrote:
This was brought up in my topic on the banality of belief, but I think it deserves its own topic.

Is it better to believe in god if god is not real, or is it better to not believe in god if god is real? Why?
Believing in the truth is not necessarily the best thing at any one given moment. So your question isn't really about believing in a truth, but rather in a specific idea.

The problem is that you have to define exactly what you mean by "god" in your question in order to yield a good answer. To me;

A god ≡ who/whatever incontestably determines what can or cannot be concerning a situation.
The God ≡ Who/Whatever incontestably determines All that can or cannot be.

So you have asked (from my perspective) is it is better to believe in your lack of alternatives when you really don't have that lack of alternatives or to disbelieve in your lack of alternatives when you really do have that lack.

If you believe that you cannot do something when you really could have done it, then you defeat yourself because you do not try what could have worked.

If you don't believe that you can't do something that you really can't do, then you continually attempt things that will never work. That often leads to damage or death.

So you stand a good chance of loosing either way. I think the final resolve would depend on your situation (another name for your God). If your situation allows for you not achieving much without great threat, then believing that you can't and thus not doing so, would probably not yield much damage. But if your situation requires that you achieve or else, then it would seem that you had better have a good grasp on what is actually possible.

So as usual... "it all depends".
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
- Thucydides

see it now?

Thunderbolt steers all things.
- Heraclitus

Fixed Cross
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### Re: New Moon Ashes

pezer wrote:For years, humans have known that there is an innate directionality to life itself, and the psyche. You can see it in heathen languages like English, where there is little religiosity in lingua; a vast majority of personal action terms can be adjusted with positional cues: put it there, download it, bringing me down, what's up?, can it, watch out!,

I have traumatic news for the artist: you are right. It's traumatic because the whole reason the artist made art with this intuition is that he accepted the powers that be telling him that no, that he was wrong, that it was all pretty fancies and the real world is beyond geography, in the realm of God or whatever dangerous mysterious forces kept him safe. But the haunting truth is that you feel directionality in that poetic, metaphorical way because it is innate to your functioning, to your very essence as anything that feels or thinks. The electricity moves this way and that through the immensely intricate system of your neurons (to people comparing brains with computers, consider that the computer has 1 and 0, on and off; while a brain has whatever number and combination of neurotransmitters every time a single electrical unit is activated), always in a chemically directional sense. You are billions of whizzing up, down, sideway and diagonals.

That is, nobody had to teach you directionality, but rather they somehow had to convince you that a part of existence was non-directional, and perhaps convincing you that it was a lie you were taught by appearances and shenanigans was a good enough way. Then you have that false vacuum, and they have a nice warm false God ready to fill it for you. Surprise! The proof of non-directionality via directionality.

Now, there comes a time in every honest philosopher's life when he realizes that to deny the appearent in life is to deny life, which is another way of saying it is to want death. Are you a life guy'gal? Or a death guy'gal? If you are a death person, I understand very deeply your problem. This might help: [url=http://thepiratebay.se/torrent/7173086/A_Practical_Guide_To_Suicide[Team_Nanban][TPB]_]It's[/url] not perfect, but it's as good as I could find. Please, sit down and confront your wish to die. Perhaps you have a good reason not to go through with it, but if you don't, you will feel instant relief the moment you decide to do it. Mostly, though, you will finally feel honest again. We need that, those of us who will survive you, and you can add a tiny smile to your last hours for that thought: you leave having added honesty to the karmic wheels.
(It just hit me that: "suicide, right or wrong?" might be a good debate topic)

The point remains, though, that there seems to be such an applicable concept as inescapably true. What else is inescapably true? Are there degrees? Degrees of degrees?

Quote:
(It just hit me that: "suicide, right or wrong?" might be a good debate topic)

That is an excellent topic. I've found it to be the greatest of all mindfucks.

Retro-active Liberation
"Are you naught but the collection of duties assigned to you and the pleasures there-from derived? What would you find if you decided that this was a door in front of something and opened it?

If occultists have one thing right, it's that you have an inner history and potential that you are magicked into being unfamiliar with. Opposite to the occultists, though, I claim that you can access these things with no external help other than the resources to afford the opportunity cost of sitting down and working it out. Well, drugs will help, but only after the door has been opened.

What would you find if you decided that this was a door in front of something in you and opened it?"

Would this work?
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02-17-2013, 07:59 AM Post: #2
Dannerz Offline
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RE: Retro-active Liberation
I consider liberation as a large category, and there is liberation-from, which has to do with specific things, then there is also self-transcendence, which is done through transformative means or very dedicated self control applied in a certain way. Your OP doesn't seem very specific.
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02-17-2013, 10:35 AM (This post was last modified: 02-17-2013 12:41 PM by pezer.) Post: #3
pezer Offline
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RE: Retro-active Liberation
It's a synecdoche, I'm trying to point something out.

Lucid Dreaming
Gobbo inspired me to embarc on lucid dreaming once again. This time, instead of a journal I'll get bored of, my strategy is to allways think about lucid dreaming for a while before going to sleep. Gobbo already gave me a good link, http://i.imgur.com/iPP8E.png, and this is a good one I found tonight: http://www.world-of-lucid-dreaming.com/1...reams.html

The mirror portal thing sounds like the most magicky thing. I had a huge portal once and it was red-purple demonic with four-dimensional plasma-fog, preceded by dreams of kissing zombies. I left for something to do with my family and wasn't able to make my way back.

Fucking portals.

Anyway, maybe I'll use this thread as my lucid draming journal.
19 is funny, I'll let you know if I try it.
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02-02-2013, 12:39 PM Post: #2
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RE: Lucid Dreaming
(02-01-2013 08:35 PM)pezer Wrote:
Gobbo inspired me to embarc on lucid dreaming once again. This time, instead of a journal I'll get bored of, my strategy is to allways think about lucid dreaming for a while before going to sleep. Gobbo already gave me a good link, http://i.imgur.com/iPP8E.png, and this is a good one I found tonight: http://www.world-of-lucid-dreaming.com/1...reams.html

The mirror portal thing sounds like the most magicky thing. I had a huge portal once and it was red-purple demonic with four-dimensional plasma-fog, preceded by dreams of kissing zombies. I left for something to do with my family and wasn't able to make my way back.

Fucking portals.

Anyway, maybe I'll use this thread as my lucid draming journal.
19 is funny, I'll let you know if I try it.

There are some better infographs. I will try to find them.
"I said I was going to get to your calls but...look."
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02-14-2013, 10:23 AM (This post was last modified: 02-14-2013 10:27 AM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #3
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RE: Lucid Dreaming
I actually had a lucid dream/astral travel once where something like this happened. I met a girl who dropped her wallet, I remember it being pink and quite large - and I looked inside and saw her ID, saying a name, street and a number. When I came back out of the dream, I looked in the phonebook, and there was this street, and at this number was a resident with that name.

Not as surprised as I should have been, I called, but nobody answered. This was eight years ago. I forgot about it somehow and just read about it a few weeks back in a diary. I recognized the streetname with surprise - two years ago my sister moved into that street. The number in the girls ID was 78. My sisters house number is 39.
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02-19-2013, 06:19 PM Post: #4
pezer Offline
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RE: Lucid Dreaming
Life too tumultuous now to maintain the discipline I need for lucid dreaming. I think I'll use this as a dream portal until I do, y'all feel free to do the same. After all, there is something very poetic about sharing the most primaly subconscious in the most artificially conscious possible medium. Though I guess consciousness and subconsciousness are really quite obsolete terms...

Right now I kind of qualify as poor, whereas I was not growing up. The experience affects your dreams deeply. For example, sometimes I'll simply dream that I find a fiver between the pages of a book somewhere, or baggie, with all the intensity of wishing they were there. Then, when I'm awake, I'll remember I found money or weed somewhere and spend a while looking for it like an idiot. Hell, I've dreamt about eating and getting that stomachy feeling, like a food wet dream.
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02-20-2013, 02:38 AM Post: #5
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RE: Lucid Dreaming
I've been there my friend.

pezer wrote:When we reach the heights of philosophy- up there, where all things are light- we know much. Then when we fall, we laugh! Those things are too heavy down here, no wonder they are able to keep the little man down. No amount of erudition...

Something that rimes with Newman, all too Newman?

Watch this video. It's in Spanish, but you will be able to understand it. Fyi, the guy is reading neo-communist theory.

pezer wrote:Aye!

And permit me to recommend this as a cherry for your sundae, or maybe a pinch of salt.

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Further Satanic Utterances
Until you accept your enemies' actions as intrinsically forming part of yourself, you will be a stranger to yourself.

This is why Alex Jones has to yell so loud.

Immortality
Immortality exists, and we get to participate in it for a while if we look at the moon. This interaction always carries for the intelligent the understanding that death will come for you... it tolls for thee. We are part of a specifically beautiful cyclical chemical mortal cycle within this universe of immortalities, a carbon-based killing machine come into this world to do what our beautifully complex organic codes have led us to do.

We know we will die, and the immortality in the world is only sharpened. Colors! Greens! Beautiful firls! girls! Making it big! Making it propah!

"There's some good in this world, and it's worth fighting for..."

We know at least that there is something in this world, even when it can all be made to seem like it disappeared.

Now, and this is the real relevant question: do you really want to meet immortal entities?
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02-28-2013, 03:45 AM (This post was last modified: 02-28-2013 03:51 AM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #2
ChainOfBeing Offline
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RE: Immortality
Life is consumption activity, active and continuous, ceasless destruction of that which one is not. To arrest consumption for even a moment would be immediate death. Right now every single cell and organ in your body is consuming something, many something's. Likewise with your psyche and 'ego'.

Form is contingent and very conditional, the more so the more derivative that form is.

Self-conscious life, so called, is the most derivative form.

Immortality, particularly for human-like life, would require equally immortal and endless killing and destruction. What world could support such a being? To what end could such a being exist, that it might justify its mode of existence by some greater reason or end?

What you speak of is belief in immortality, experience of the feeling of the idea of immortality. I look at the moon, I feel "the immortality of things" (of world, life, universe, death, self, whatever). So what? Tell me what purpose is served by this, that could not be (better?) served without this feeling and idea (delusion)? Where is YOUR necessity to experience the feeling/s associated with the idea (delusion) of immortality?

No. There is no immortality, there is finite, temporary existence. To believe otherwise is self-delusion, and error.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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02-28-2013, 12:17 PM Post: #3
pezer Offline
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RE: Immortality
"Life is consumption activity, active and continuous, ceasless destruction of that which one is not. To arrest consumption for even a moment would be immediate death. Right now every single cell and organ in your body is consuming something, many something's. Likewise with your psyche and 'ego'."

This is mortality. If there were no permanence, which is what immortality is, there would be nothing to fuel the activity of mortality. To believe this is self-delusion and error, yes.

What isn't? Check out Bill Willtrack's take on it in the shit thread.

The usefulness of it lies in the very emotions it creates. We have been exploring the relationship between epistemology and ontology in this site, but what about the one between emotion and ontology?

In short, I never believed that Parmenides and Heraclitus contradicted each-other.
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02-28-2013, 03:01 PM Post: #4
ChainOfBeing Offline
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RE: Immortality
Fear and a desire to avoid knowledge or feeling of our mortality and that of those whom we love, that is the source of the inclination to feeling immortal. This feeling or "in-tension" is then the justification for beliefs in immortality, eternity, heaven, karma, universal justice, whatever. We believe because we feel it, we feel it because we do not wish to feel otherwise.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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03-01-2013, 02:40 AM Post: #5
pezer Offline
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RE: Immortality
Suppose we are talking about pre-existing immortality: you are right. The Tabula Rasa is an objective, not a starting point.

Suppose we are talking about the generated orders within chaotic systems, by simple logic of potential generation: then immortality enters, beyond the silly metaphysician's sense, as a simple description of give-and-taking.
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03-01-2013, 08:23 AM Post: #6
ChainOfBeing Offline
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RE: Immortality
Logic of potential generation? Are you referring to the creative act, whereby we bring something into being by actively transforming what is given, via a teleological process? Ends-driven activity is certainly ontologically important, even (arguably) categorically so, but in what sense can we call the creative act or any "give and take" as being "immortal"? I'm what sense are you using the concept of immortality here?
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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03-01-2013, 11:23 AM (This post was last modified: 03-01-2013 04:35 PM by JSS.) Post: #7
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RE: Immortality
Immortality presents the issue of who or what you want to be immortal.

Socialist societies propose that the society be immortal at the expense of the people involved, "you little guys die anyway, so what the hell."

It is unwise to create machines or social mechanisms that value themselves more than you, "Frankenstein's Monster".
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03-01-2013, 01:20 PM (This post was last modified: 03-01-2013 01:36 PM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #8
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RE: Immortality
That which we want to be immortal has to do with how we feel, how we think, what our values are. We would hold that immortal which most secures for us a possibility of maintaining desirable states of being, rather in pleasure, freedom, satiety, novelty, the company of others, whatever appears most desirable to us at any given moment. The utility of the concept of immortality, to the extent that it may be said to have any real utility other than to deceive and to perpetuate states of deception, even pleasurable ones, such as coddle children not yet ready to accept the harder reality of things, is that it will indeed give us insight into what we must value ourselves.

Societies will always extend their values beyond the individual. This is what "society" means. It may even be a prerequisite of a society to flourish that it believe, on some level at least, rather explicitly or implicitly, that its own society and culture is immortal. This seems foolish to us, who know that no society is immortal, but the feeling of such may indeed be a condition for social perpetuation at all. Culture is what stretches beyond the individual, what conditions individuals, that by which the individual is brought into his or her existence, given an identity, a psychology. We should be focusing on creating the right kinds of cultures, the best kind of societies, which produce the best kind of individuals. If it is the case that some level of "will to immortality" exist in this sense, as societal "glue", as is of course the case with religion, which seemingly every society has possessed, in the sense of dogmatic ideologies and metaphysical mythologies, then this must be accepted and used as best as possible.

Society will always value itself more than the individual, because the mass of all people in society, including those masses of people not yet even born but who exist in the future alone as our own derivations, always have more abstract value than you or any single person. This is the way it must be. To have it any other way would simply represent the impossibility of society as such, would merely be a state reaching for anarchy and a total will to power at the behest of that individual most capable of possessing the cultural and economic material of the moment, and to the express detriment of all those people and those possibilities enabled by everyone else, particularly those future humans who are not yet here to lay claim upon their own existence or to possibilize their own potential against the tyrants of the present who devour them and their reality. This is the state of affairs of present-day humanity, a mere state of living in the wild like savage beasts who leave everything up to chance and become only the greater sorrow of a murdered potential of such a unbelievably tragic magnitude as cannot even properly find expression in our language, a thing that even our very best poets and playwrights and artists can only hint at.

Man does not yet even will himself, much less anything beyond himself. If the false notion of immortality can be said to possess any ideal validity at all in the grand schema of our conscious experience, this has never yet been realized, at least not on any measurable scale.
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03-01-2013, 04:43 PM (This post was last modified: 03-01-2013 04:43 PM by JSS.) Post: #9
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RE: Immortality
In the simplest societal case, a man and wife choose to separate, destroying the social group, the family, rather than one killing the other.

In a little more complex society, a corporation (considered a citizen), chooses to disillusionment, destroying the social group, rather than face extortion of its own employees.

The same can hold for every type of societal order... until the order itself, not the individuals, is making the decisions autonomously (especially if computers are involved). After that point, the individuals are expendable.
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03-01-2013, 05:08 PM Post: #10
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RE: Immortality
Individuals are and have always been expendable. Since like the very first society.

RE: Immortality
So have societies.
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03-01-2013, 07:05 PM Post: #12
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RE: Immortality
And?

Once again I've lost your point entirely.
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03-01-2013, 07:12 PM (This post was last modified: 03-01-2013 07:13 PM by JSS.) Post: #13
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RE: Immortality
The point is that a life such as a human, has a choice that other less sentient animals don't have. The homosapian has the choice to work toward his own immortality or that of something else. What he has inadvertently done is to create something else merely to help him out that he then inadvertently chose to make immortal and above himself - society and machines.

Thus, due to both the cleverness and the stupidity of homosapian, he is to die out completely and be replaced by his invention... end game.
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03-02-2013, 12:27 AM (This post was last modified: 03-02-2013 12:28 AM by pezer.) Post: #14
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RE: Immortality
What I'm saying is that ends-driven activity is the only ontological activity. This I will now call feeling-ontology, otherwise known as the force, God, karma, The One, The Way, Prima Causa. The stupid animal. You are the stupid animal.

This, precisely this, is mortality.

What that exists within, as a short-time-cycle element, that I call immortality.

The repeating patterns that conform the world we feed off of, and thus are ultimately somehow made up of, so to speak.

Bill Wiltrack wrote:.

We are three dimensional beings existing in a multidimensional world.

No matter what we do we cannot achieve immortality.

We do repeat our lives over & over again, more or less the same way, but again, within the framework of a three dimensional scope.

.

RE: Immortality
(03-02-2013 12:27 AM)pezer Wrote:
What I'm saying is that ends-driven activity is the only ontological activity. This I will now call feeling-ontology, otherwise known as the force, God, karma, The One, The Way, Prima Causa. The stupid animal. You are the stupid animal.

This, precisely this, is mortality.

What that exists within, as a short-time-cycle element, that I call immortality.

The repeating patterns that conform the world we feed off of, and thus are ultimately somehow made up of, so to speak.

Look at the behavior of a virus, or a fish, or a tree. These things act based on an organic mandate or "instinct", their growth pattern is predetermined by DNA and chance environmental influences. In the case of animals this goes much further and they have an organism able to be more mobile and extend its own influence-affect outward from itself. The behavior is always the result of inward patterning-instinct set in an environment of conditioning ad restricting or enabling factors. The individual comes into existence as the process of instinctive patterning through a situation that, to that individual, is "random". When the individual begins to mediate this randomness more substantially due to its increasing ability to directly alter its own environment, a feedback loop is tightened and the individual pattern experiences increased potentiation. But this is still not teleological.

Teleological is what happens when a pure possibility, not yet in existence, is envisioned nonetheless as possibility-as-such, and in this form "calls to itself" through the present-moment individual process of foresight. Where anticipation is based on memory and instinct this does nœ happen save only to potentiate already extant possibilities, ie telos is "collapsed", non-dimensional. Rather, when the organism gains the ability to see and be affected by that which truly does not yet exist and is also a function of possibility-as-such, meaning its potentiality is embedded or located in itself and its own "being what it is", then we find telos, this ability to possibilize not only our own individual inherited script upon the tablet of the immediate future but rather also newness of futurity itself, which begins to grow in stature as it grows the new individual through whom it is increasingly realized. Of course these are differences of degree, at first, but eventually collapsed marginal planes push into new tectonic dimensions and begin to take on wholly new character and qualities. When this occurs to where a line is drawn around the epistemic entity, between that which it was/is and that which it now calls to and is/may be, we must say that a difference in kind has taken place, no matter that the steps along the way to this change are composed of flattened plateaus of qualitatively undifferentiated causalities.

The ontological status of a thing would be its ability to affect, to cause or force to happen, namely to hold itself in existence as such and such a thing and not another, against the contrary and competing existences of other things. This is what we have called self-valuing.

So "feeling ontology" then is when an entity responds to the fact of its own existence, feels itself somehow and thus is capable of perishing, of having this feeling-itself come to an end? I would agree this is categorically significant as regards ontology. If we consider being as Dasein, then certainly ontology is merely the ontology of teleologies. But I like to break down less- and non-teleological entities and demonstrate their own relevance to ontology as well. In this I have found Kitaro very helpful, I posted about this in the Philosophy forum when I first joined here. ( Edit, here is the link to that,
http://naturalworldorder.org/forum/showt...php?tid=71 )

Does it make sense to say that a Dasein is immortal between the finite spans of its beginning and ending points of its existence? Perhaps. To not be dead and yet to comprehend death, to feel mortality from the other side of mortality, yes perhaps this is a better (more interesting, less irrational) definition of immortality.

Or perhaps you are saying that the death state is where "immortality" lies? I would caution against attributing such characteristics and meaning to the non-existent. That which is not yet in existence but is a more or less potent possibility, to the extent it may influence the present (it's own past) with itself, I ascribe ontological status, albeit virtually so, as Deleuze noted. But that which either had now become non-existent or has no existence yet and also no realized virtual dimension we could ascribe no qualities to, including and maybe especially "immortality".
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03-02-2013, 02:41 AM Post: #17
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RE: Immortality
I think pezer was saying that the principle involved is immortal.
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03-02-2013, 03:15 AM Post: #18
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RE: Immortality
If our mortally generated patterns work, the repetitiveness of it suggests that a counter-acting, equally predictable force exist to give it's energy fluidity needs viability. That force, like the stupid animal, can in reality be any number of things, any complexity of complexity, etc. But thar it is, as dependable as anything. Often these things are worth ignoring, I agree. Did the Gods not slay the Titans?

Immortality is perhaps, as you say, useful insofar as it works towards refining and re-enforcing the processes of mortality.
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03-02-2013, 05:19 AM (This post was last modified: 03-02-2013 05:23 AM by JSS.) Post: #19
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RE: Immortality
To me it is merely a question of Entropy or Anentropy.

Rationality and survival is the focus upon anentropy.
Irrationality and nihilism is the focus upon entropy.

Conservatism and Liberalism are similar except that they merely focus on being the opposite of the other regardless of rationality.
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
- Thucydides

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### Re: New Moon Ashes

The Soul
The Soul is one of the Church's greatest mechanisms (well, today it is by far greatest, God lags far behind, or even the ManGods) to keep the little man down. An image is created of part of your belongings being a soul, a third eye sort of essence that was created by a being of the following characteristics: Pure love, Good, Benign, AllPowerful, Your True Father and Above Your Father, Perfect/flawless (a word that hides that flaw precedes flawlesness always). These characteristics are attached a category of subservient feelings that will keep the follower continuously trying to mold his soul to the goodgodsoul. But what is his soul? How does he know?

It is described to him as that which gains by believing and looses by feeling pleasure. He has coordinates, his psychology can attach his life to his ideal and have it, as it was designed to do, severely missmatch.

Now the hoe runs back to the pimp, who opens his hand and grins. A disgusting pedophile pimp, no less, because it is the child they are after.

The Soul is the stupid animal we have inherited, and it is all ours. No pedophile God can peer into your dreams, nothing but the long throes of history really affect you. The soul is not something to be kept closeted away and worshiped into some in-human image, or nailed to a cross. It is not something to ride on blindly, either, as Nietzsche discovered from Schopenhauer, because what kind of animals would we be if we accepted Christianity's retardation as a gift?

The soul is returned to us with the death of God. What we do with it will determine our honor as scientists and our finesse as suitors.

Bill Wiltrack wrote:.

..........................................

Could soul be different levels of consciousness?

.

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RE: The Soul
Of course, my horse. Could be a lot of other things too.

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RE: The State, Repetition and the Law of Laws
The state then as a reflection of the seasons, thus as a secondary "world".
Again, this points to the necessity of re-instating Saturn, the sequenser, in state-"religion".

pezer wrote:Chavez is dead. If you have the inclination to find out how someone like yours truly; not a stupid gringo, not a vested interest, but some guy 'round about your age who has discipline in his thought sometimes, then go to this site, scroll down about one or two tracks to the one called "The Death of Hugo Chavez And The Future Of Venezuela", and skip to 28:55. It's about a 5-10 minute explanation of what Chavez was for us who are unburdened by the Cold War past.

I was going to maybe write something, but this guy said basically all of my words.

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Success
Success is always behind, always retroactive. It is the bane of so many people today to, in despair, think they are being clever by focusing on the process and seeking success itself as a future. Perhaps it can work in specific circumstances, though I can't imagine one. Can there be success in seeking success as an objective? Wouldn't one then have to first seek success in achieving success in achieving that? An-

There's enough snake oil salesmen aware of this and offering new ways to find "success in your life, your career, yo-"bleeeeergggh. Constantly perfecting the art of perfecting the art perfecting until you have become a machine with no purpose.

But you aren't a machine, and will never quite be, so you do always have purposes. You just learn to ignore them, take them as givens, and hear them always vaguely. The how to achieve the purposes, that's the only thing that matters to you (the ultimate perversion of Machiavelli?). Here, paranoia is even healthy. It might snap you out of it to think that this process leaves your purposes pretty much up for grabs to anyone that can imitate your somewhat simple principled obsessive needs and use a vague voice.

Low Budget Cinematic Artifacts
If we're doing this multimedia collaboration thing, and I expect we will, we should share any knowledge we might have regarding the highest possible quality at the lowest possible cost.

And by we I mean you, all I know I got from Robert Rodriguez, who I'm not really a fan of, and Peter Jackson, who was working in the 60's.

My thinking right now is that I have to save enough for like a medium range Rebel camera, I have tripod and a low-end condenser mic for VO. My thinking is very dogme 95, Blair Witch Project, on hand and moving. But that's nothing very illuminating at all.

I wonder if any of y'all have collected any handy tips or tricks that come to mind to shoot cool shit at low cost?
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03-14-2013, 09:03 AM Post: #2
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RE: Low Budget Cinematic Artifacts
When it comes to physics and metaphysics, I'm an engineer. But in the world of filming, I'm strictly a psychologist. So I can't help you much with the physical practicalities involved.
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03-14-2013, 10:01 AM (This post was last modified: 03-14-2013 10:10 AM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #3
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RE: Low Budget Cinematic Artifacts
(03-14-2013 08:44 AM)pezer Wrote:
If we're doing this multimedia collaboration thing, and I expect we will, we should share any knowledge we might have regarding the highest possible quality at the lowest possible cost.

And by we I mean you, all I know I got from Robert Rodriguez, who I'm not really a fan of, and Peter Jackson, who was working in the 60's.

My thinking right now is that I have to save enough for like a medium range Rebel camera, I have tripod and a low-end condenser mic for VO. My thinking is very dogme 95, Blair Witch Project, on hand and moving. But that's nothing very illuminating at all.

I wonder if any of y'all have collected any handy tips or tricks that come to mind to shoot cool shit at low cost?

Purely in terms of price and handling, really effective is the Sanyo Xacti, which you can get for around \$100. In terms of quality, to get something with a good lens is crucial. Anything with a Leica Lens (many corporations are using them for their mid-rance consumer items) will give you great texture, contrasts and colors at sometimes very reasonable prices.

For steady shots, a consumer camera can be carried by a 15 dollar tripod. For any kind of action, be it people moving in a street or a chase scene, I recommend using a lot of handheld, as tripod framing is much harder than handheld framing - unless you have a really good tripod, which would quickly reach the price of a very decent camera.

For cinema-quality, the Canon 5D Mark II and other DLSR cameras have brought the cost of a basic setup down to about 5 percent of what it used to be - they deliver 35mm film quality even with very low natural light, in files that are about 1.5 times the size of regular DV. The price of the Mark II with a good lens came down from 3000 to 2000 Euro now that the Mark III is out.

It also depends what kind of computer you're working on. A Mac, with Final Cut (and there's nothing else to use on the Mac besides iMovie which is pointless), will make a problem out of a lot of of video formats. I'm not a computer expert, but I know that a PC with Vegas or even Premiere is much more flexible.
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03-14-2013, 10:02 AM Post: #4
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RE: Low Budget Cinematic Artifacts
Well, hopefully this will also function as an on-going journal of what works, also.
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03-14-2013, 10:42 AM (This post was last modified: 03-14-2013 10:43 AM by JSS.) Post: #5
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RE: Low Budget Cinematic Artifacts
Does anyone already have what it is going to take to interlace the video graphics into the film?
And what about overlay graphic effects?
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03-14-2013, 11:56 AM Post: #6
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RE: Low Budget Cinematic Artifacts
Both of those things can be easily handled by a well rounded video editor like Cinelerra.

Wait, you don't mean actual film, do you?
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03-14-2013, 11:57 AM Post: #7
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RE: Low Budget Cinematic Artifacts
Do you mean literal interlacing? What kind of graphics software are we using?
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03-14-2013, 11:57 AM Post: #8
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RE: Low Budget Cinematic Artifacts
Here is a conversation with Deleuze about movie making.

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Love
Another one that needs urgent rescue is Love. Here, we have good reason to plot a violent vengeance and overthrow of the cinematic order... What horrible co-conspirators they have been! Even the Great, they have largely been able to avoid crimes by surfing around the subject altogether.

Love is an evil thing, it is the pre-existing enemy, that gave birth to Evil when the Good needed it. It works multi-directionally, in many levels. Like any feeling, it can be caught, stretched, simulated, manipulated, repressed, simplified, made to be so painful that we might look away and relinquish control to shadows. We know this because it has. Like all feelings, too, it belongs to us. It is our instincts, part of that which gave birth even to logic. And yes, we have made the commitment out of will to power to subject our feelings to communal processes beyond our choosing, yet we should not look away from the results, or the history, or whatever chaos may ensue (or has).

We are made to look away, often by guilt of the evil acts we commit. But which of those acts weren't committed out of love? "But love for the self doesn't count!" you might say. I say love of the self is love of the precedents of the self, and their intertwining like they do. Enough that you would meddle with the forces of the Universe Themselves to keep it going.

pezer wrote:Aside from France and the United States, Venezuela was the only self-proclaimed political unity of economic and political importance to produce neo-enlightenment intellectual warlords that waged war against the European governors and won. Miranda, the second-in-command in Venezuelan independentist mythos, took part as a general in the French Revolution (he's right up there on the Arc) after having escaped Russia for having an affair with the queen-princess-whatever. Simón Bolívar, the George Washington, if you will, was taught by progressive, neo-aristotelian teachers and was an avid freemason idealist.

All South American pride comes from two sources: the Southern, European kind of relaxed, rationalist white pride; and the northern freemasonic revolutionary ideal. Much the reverse of North America, I would say...

The war the Venezuelan Criollo generals waged spread throughout Northern South America (which is why so many of those countries basically have the same flag). However, being descendant from the Spanish machos and the Arab warriors that begot those, they took it a bloody step further. That is perhaps the reason that there are a bunch of yellow-blue-reds when the USA has a single red-white-and-blue. Plus, the heat gets to ya sometimes. In fact, ol' Simon is known for doing things like declaring a "war to the death" where no prisoners would be taken and selling the **generalísimo** (that's right, the very-very-general) Miranda out to the Spanish for retreating from a battle, inspiring one of Venezuela's most famous paintings in a kind of French Revolution, Death of Marat style:

Miranda en La Carraca (Miranda in The Brig)

Just look at what happened with Chávez: Venezuela does it and, what do you know? Suddenly every country with the tricolor flag has a populist, non-white, post-socialist leader. In realpolitik terms, think of us as Saudi Arabia, but with post-colonial freemasonry as a shadow instead of observant Islam. By the way, just like Saudi Arabia: despite it's ranting, the government is only too happy to sell the USA most of their oil. It's our loony-toon acceptability requirement.

In any case, we are the representatives of revolutionary enlightenment from our part of the world.

In that sense, of course, we are largely guilty for the atrocities the USA committed across the sub-continent. That is the last straw on the camel's back for me, I find myself unable to wish to oppose anything supported by the un-responsible masses when my lineage has such dishonor on it. Let the old white leaders die out, I agree, let new equilibriums arise! I at least know from a silly little piece of family history that one of my fore-fathers was a marquis who gave up his title in favor of a failed, pre-independence independence attempt.

What is your lineage? What are your fathers responsible for? How do you relate to your ancestors' acts? What have you and what have you not the right to say and do in good standing?

Is your lineage rather political? Do you trace your provenance in some other way?

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RE: Why Venezuela is Important
El Chavismo has kicked the bucket, apparently. Who would have though Fidel was going to outlive him?
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03-07-2013, 03:43 AM Unread post Post: #3
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RE: Why Venezuela is Important
Fuck, who would have thought **I** was going to outlive him. He had the magic autocrat's touch, that one, he was blessed with a truly honest, democratic support of assholery.

Anyway, I heavily doubt this is the end of Chavismo. He represented something, a historical something that has been let out know and will have to find a new way to express itself. Venezuelans are lazy, so you can bet they won't bother changing the name for it.
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03-19-2013, 03:52 AM Unread post Post: #4
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RE: Why Venezuela is Important
There is always some element of desire for oppression. Every government asserts its will into the vacuum of *your* will. Maybe not you, but almost everyone else.

What's the name for the condition where we love most those who most hurt us, I forget. Or perhaps "the enemy of my enemy" really does trump all else.

What do they hide?
That they hide nothing. So sayeth Baudrillard, and Zizek adds: it's not always the same nothing.

I have to say, in the US (in its international sense) you have become experts at interacting with those nothings.

Romanticism...?

Still, perhaps nothing is really nothing, and perhaps we should get used to replace the word nothing with chaos. There is still blame to be lain for the indiscriminate surrender to chaos, yet perhaps now we can see that the situation is a tad, or infinity, more nutritious than nothing.

Bill Wiltrack wrote:.

"Nothing can be produced out of nothing."

~ Diogenes ~

.
" />

Man is above evolution.

Or is he?
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
- Thucydides

see it now?

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### Re: New Moon Ashes

Is it to be above evolution to be above the life-death dichotomy? To be able to see evolution, and judge it, and integrate it into a system... Quite a mind fuck that this very system is a product of evolutionary progress. The competing cycles of life.

This is why the Will to Power is necessary. It's like the Higgs Boson, really.

Can you smell the void...?
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03-25-2013, 01:26 AM Post: #2
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RE: Above Evolution
It's just that we are not really subject to naturally selective pressure anymore, most humans can mate successfully regardless of their genes. We do not compete anymore for mates like we used to in the wild, and physical attributes no longer are what tend to further our species' survival, rather mental and emotional attributes do. But not even that, we survive as a species because we inherit a massive structure of survival ability--culture, language, tehnology--and so we have broken the wheel of natural selection. You might think that logically our natural selection would just have switched over from using physical strengths to using mental/emotional strengths as standards for mate selection, but of course that is not the case, because we have that survival structure of society regardless of how we choose out mates, and of course mate selection is not very conscious and intentional to begin with, for most people. (This is really one of the biggest problems humanity faces currently, that technology has the potential to help fix).

This doesn't mean we do not evolve or are "above" evolution, it just means our evolution genetically speaking is of a different type. More chaotic, traits important to survival before now tend to stagnate or at least remain flat, while we must now consciously make the effort to value traits that are really beneficial to our survival now.
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03-25-2013, 02:39 AM Post: #3
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RE: Above Evolution
That would seem to me like arguing that ants have long abandoned evolution. Only two in a colony mate, and who knows what processes ae necessary to get to the top?

Richard Dawkin's brake-through was to notice that it's not on the level of a single animal, or any group of animals, or even the gene that evolution can be said to be at work. That's the level of being-a-product-of, being able, for some cosmic irony or will to power, to notice the originating evolutionary dynamics.

Evolution occurs at the level of philosophy. Nietzsche may not have been the smartest, wittiest, or most convincing, but he is the most important philosopher yet. For noticing that and, as some novelist said about Picasso, ripping it from the world and putting it on a canvas.
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03-25-2013, 02:47 AM Post: #4
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RE: Above Evolution
I don't know about how natural selection works for insects, but I do know how it works for mammals, and humans have "broken" it.

"Evolution" is always occurring since "evolution" just means "change". And yes, we as a species and of course as individuals too evolve in the realm of philosophy, of ideas, knowledge and application. But the really significant thing here is not that humans are still changing (of course we are, everything is) but that we must now consciously direct this change in the absence of naturally selective pressures to keep our genome fit.

Basically, unlike other mammals, survival itself is no longer the "goal" of the human species, genetically speaking. Our genes are "free" from needing to be useful to anything.
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03-25-2013, 02:57 AM (This post was last modified: 03-25-2013 03:16 AM by pezer.) Post: #5
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RE: Above Evolution
You are wrong, evolution does not just mean change. Think on that! Arithmetic doesn't just mean thinking, and a spear-point isn't just metal.

You have not defined what it is is getting "broken."

"Evolution occurs at the level of philosophy." The gene is just one way. One could also say that genes are just an evolutionary product of the processes of RNA. It doesn't matter, we don't have to study it like this, we are right smack in the middle of it. We are that which chooses how to go about things, because not choosing would spell our doom. So far as evolution goes anyway. This is why the Will to Power matters... maybe.
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03-25-2013, 06:44 AM Post: #6
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RE: Above Evolution
Evolution means change. It means a kind of change. There are many kinds. My point was that you're use of the term "evolution" without qualifying what kind, orders and structures/logics of evolution doesn't make sense. We can talk about natural selection and genetic reproduction, or we can talk about the history of ideas and cultures, science, philosophy, technology, morality, whatever.

Note that I said we have broken natural selection, not evolution.

If you think natural selection operates on levels beyond the genome/mate selection then it is on you to demonstrate that. I'm open to the notion but I'm not just going to take it on faith.
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03-25-2013, 07:07 AM Post: #7
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RE: Above Evolution
I seem to have made a big mistake here. I don't think I'll make it again. When I say evolution, every single time, I mean it as an abbreviation of evolution by natural selection. Shorthands, you know how it goes...

"We can talk about natural selection and genetic reproduction, or we can talk about the history of ideas and cultures, science, philosophy, technology, morality, whatever. "

I challenge you to point the difference out to me.
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03-25-2013, 07:12 AM Post: #8
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RE: Above Evolution
On the heels of that challenge, allow me to try to answer yours first.
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03-25-2013, 07:22 AM Post: #9
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RE: Above Evolution
"If you think natural selection operates on levels beyond the genome/mate selection then it is on you to demonstrate that."

All I have are philosophical arguments, but science has been done on this too. It's written down in the book The Extended Phenotype.

The argument is the following: look at your screen now. You see a forum, colors, posts, words, maybe megabytes, maybe ideas. But none of this was achieved by any kind of evolution of color, posts, words, etc themselves. It was achieved by manipulating electricity through binary circuits, and even that is a cover of so many other things!

In the same way, perhaps idas, cultures, science, etc, may seem to convey a certain kind of evolutionary information, when the actual processes shaping this information can be understood to work according to the principles of the most primitive evolution by natural selection.

Yet we wouldn't say that the byte is the basic unit of programming (it would take decades to write the simplest programs!), or that the primitive processes I'm talking about that boil down, equivalently, to the gene, are the basic units of evolution by natural selection. Rather, as Dawkins does, I prefer the phenotype, if anything.

The basic unit of evolution by natural selection is its own products. Only Will to Power can be said to save us from circularity.
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03-25-2013, 08:04 AM Post: #10
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RE: Above Evolution
No one, at least not me, is arguing that everything is produced by naturally selective and "ex post facto" process. But many things are, like living organisms' bodies and structures of consciousness. Beyond that, I would refer to value ontology for a more complete picture.

Certainly humans create ex ante, after teleological methodology. The propensity to become able to do so exists as a consequence of non-teleological biological evolution, a la natural selection, but once produced this new method goes on to constitute its own essential nature, process and logos. Such is the way of things to transcend the conditions of their own conditional natures. Tectonics comes in at this point, to explain how and why this is the case.

Phenotypes are both genetically and environmentally driven. In fact to say "phenotype" is just to say "genetics + situation".

Beyond all this, I'm sorry but I fail to see your point. Maybe we are in agreement here, but honestly I have no idea, because I don't really know what you are trying to say.

RE: Above Evolution
We are not in agreement, essentially, here: "but once produced this new method goes on to constitute its own essential nature."

Precisely the whole point of this thread is that question, perhaps. Is Value Ontology beyond evolution? The only honest answer that occurs to me is: yes. Or is it?

You know of a void, ChainOfBeing, but can you smell it?
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03-25-2013, 08:31 AM (This post was last modified: 03-25-2013 08:32 AM by pezer.) Post: #12
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RE: Above Evolution
No, another mistake... Not Value Ontology, but Man.

Perhaps if we ask "is value ontology beyond man?" we can reach the same kind of what-the-fuck that I am getting to here.
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03-26-2013, 01:40 AM (This post was last modified: 03-26-2013 01:43 AM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #13
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RE: Above Evolution
Evolutionary process qua natural selection is very different from the evolutionary process by which humans create ideas. Natural selection works with random mutation and accidental changes, which serve no overt purpose and appear for "no reason"; once they appear thusly, they propagate throughout the gene pool and tend to do so more the more they will give some immediate survival advantage. Read: immediate advantage, random appearance, and overall tendency toward producing individual survival advantage.

Human ideas are created because they serve a purpose, they are intended. They do not arise "randomly" but through guided process and design. There are not "random ideas" appearing and being selected based on how well they further individual survival. Human ideas contribute directly and intentionally to an overall edifice of knowledge, they are not designed to give immediate survival benefit but rather to serve this edifice somehow, to build directly upon previous knowledge and ideas toward the abstract aim of the idea of scientific progress, future benefit, etc. This is not how idea formation works. In fact, natural selection and the process of human ideation are about as opposite methodologies as one could imagine.

The human mind is a teleological (read: future- and purpose-oriented) process. Nature is not.
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03-26-2013, 07:03 AM (This post was last modified: 03-26-2013 07:05 AM by pezer.) Post: #14
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RE: Above Evolution
Honestly man, you're understanding of evolution is pre-Dawkins. A disparate set of small, immediate, incremental steps might have been the case with the first enzymes or something, but when you are considering the action of many genes withing a single body-unit, no small incremental advantage itself is enough. Or, rather, evolution is such that sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't, and the small increments affect each-other in whatever mathematically describable system beyond the simple equation you sketch out.

A body-unit is a conglomerate of such incremental processes, and the interactions between those processes.. But so is a colony unit, a family unit, a friend unit, an ideological unit...
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03-26-2013, 12:54 PM (This post was last modified: 03-26-2013 01:00 PM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #15
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RE: Above Evolution
(03-26-2013 07:03 AM)pezer Wrote:
Honestly man, you're understanding of evolution is pre-Dawkins. A disparate set of small, immediate, incremental steps might have been the case with the first enzymes or something, but when you are considering the action of many genes withing a single body-unit, no small incremental advantage itself is enough. Or, rather, evolution is such that sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't, and the small increments affect each-other in whatever mathematically describable system beyond the simple equation you sketch out.

A body-unit is a conglomerate of such incremental processes, and the interactions between those processes.. But so is a colony unit, a family unit, a friend unit, an ideological unit...

Ok, what are these other kinds of changes, other than "small, immediate, incremental steps"? How do they work, physically, biologically? We are talking about natural evolution here, natural selection in your own words. Or are you saying that non-human animals are also directing their own evolution "intentionally"? I am open to what you are talking about, but you need to state it plainly and explain it if you want me to understand. If you think my view of natural selection, the only one I have ever known and read, and which makes perfect logical sense, is somehow no longer relevant, show me where/how this is so. I want to learn. You seem to have this knowledge of this subject, which I seem to lack, so please educate me. Also, remind me what your point was here, as regards humans and evolution.

Here is my take on it: the way an idea is created, in a human mind and society, is very different from the way genes change in natural selection. We know how genes change. Survivable genes tend to beat out less survivable ones. Throw in some random mutation and random environmental events and influences, combined with limited resources, and you basically get.... all of nature. But humans don't produce a bunch of random ideas in a limited environment and then see which naturally "survive" the others; no, we envision things first, form logical deductions, we understand, we anticipate, we create with purpose toward an end. I cannot see your point, that somehow this also takes place outside of the human mind. Where in nature do we see anything analogous to the process of human ideation? Unless you want to reduce human intellect and imagination to mere instinctive operations, in which case, you have an argument there, but still one that I will disagree with, based on my understanding of the rational nature/structure of consciousness.
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03-26-2013, 06:20 PM (This post was last modified: 03-26-2013 06:22 PM by pezer.) Post: #16
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RE: Above Evolution
Beauty... Beauty must make itself. To understand a joke, you must share some amount of the cruel intentions behind it. To smell wine, particles of the elixir have to enter our noses, be broken down, incorporated into our very biological structures, if only as trace amounts of X. This is how we know wine. It becomes part of us.

When you think of the idea of a can of ham. A can. Of ham. The metal, the grinding of can opener gears, the smell of processed cow... All these things must already make a part of you, somehow, and with some extendable balance. Those hows are the tiny increments, but they are of no interest to the end product. A moth has no interest or knowledge in looking like an owl, much less its genes.

Which brings me to my point regarding humans and evolution: Are we above it?

Or do we not notice ourselves under it?

I believe there is a unifying thread to all biological life, and the closer the life-form to our genetic branch, the more understandable their will. This is a grotesque statement, from grotesque thought experiments aided by LSD. Yet it is absolutely true, I have visited the will of a whale for the few nano-seconds that I could bear the horror. I believe this thread extends even further than biology.

Life, as we all know is the principal lesson of evolution by natural selection, is shaped by death; but must it not also shape itself in order to make any sense as a changing system?

Perhaps not. It's a gamble.
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03-26-2013, 11:53 PM (This post was last modified: 03-26-2013 11:55 PM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #17
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RE: Above Evolution
(03-26-2013 06:20 PM)pezer Wrote:
Beauty... Beauty must make itself. To understand a joke, you must share some amount of the cruel intentions behind it. To smell wine, particles of the elixir have to enter our noses, be broken down, incorporated into our very biological structures, if only as trace amounts of X. This is how we know wine. It becomes part of us.

When you think of the idea of a can of ham. A can. Of ham. The metal, the grinding of can opener gears, the smell of processed cow... All these things must already make a part of you, somehow, and with some extendable balance. Those hows are the tiny increments, but they are of no interest to the end product. A moth has no interest or knowledge in looking like an owl, much less its genes.

A moth has a great deal of interest in looking like an owl, of course. And its genes naturally change to accommodate such an interest. The moth's body becomes to resemble an appearance of an owl (or whatever) based on this natural tendency, which is rooted in random mutation and natural selection. This is significant. Of course the moth does not "know" that it is resembling an owl, it does not know what is happening on the level of its genes. But its interests are not predicated upon such possible kind of knowledge.

What you say about the can of ham, yes indeed we must have "bits" of something "inside us" in order to respond to it, to understand it. This I would phrase within tectonics, as how every causal plane and milieu within or among planes constitutes its own particular kind of 'logical order/ing' by which "forces" (activities) act and change, and that every such plane or level interacts with what is above AND below it, directly. Most of the conditionality of a thing resides "below" it, but once you move further up the chain the amount of "temporal dimension" (see Kitaro here) a thing incorporates as itself increases, it responds more and more essentially to its "above" also.

Tiny changes exist, accumulate, cause bigger changes. I certainly agree. Sometimes these tiny changes are "random" (you already know my position on "randomness", of course, so this should make sense to you without confusion about what I am really saying) and some are not random, meaning that some arise from a teleological or logical order/ing directed and aimed at/by some purpose, an 'end'. Survival is not an end in natural selection, genes do not mutate and go on to either propagate or not based on any kind of end or goal, this phenomenon just happens as a consequence of non-purposeful activity taking place within a space of certain guidelines and rules (limited resources, competition, etc.)

When humans ideate about something, or probably when any animal experiences something there is definitely a degree of "non-non-purposeful change". Change that arises from a particular kind of logical order/ing and "aim", namely as the consequent of some rational mandate of a thing (see value ontology here). But let's not confuse this with natural selection, and let's not blow its scope or degree of influence out of proportion. Life changes like this, absolutely, but at the heart of biological change is natural selection, without aim or purpose, shaping things to be what they are based only on the fact that in the past their particular forms have tended to produce survivable behavior within a certain kind of environmental limitation. Entities form from this situation and go on to become "valuers", absolutely. But I merely want us to see the whole picture, and not to confuse one thing incorrectly with another. Proper delimitation is always my goal.

Quote:
Which brings me to my point regarding humans and evolution: Are we above it?

Or do we not notice ourselves under it?

In the sense which we now mean it here, yes humans and indeed all animal life probably is above evolution. Meaning that we force/direct a degree of our own evolutionary change. Or maybe you are right that, too, we do not notice ourselves under it. Much of our human or supposed "enlightened" behaviors still follow a largely naturally-selective and "accidental" mandate, meaning they are what we have inherited and now have "little or no control over", regardless rather or not these behaviors now make sense or are helpful/useful.
Quote:
I believe there is a unifying thread to all biological life, and the closer the life-form to our genetic branch, the more understandable their will. This is a grotesque statement, from grotesque thought experiments aided by LSD. Yet it is absolutely true, I have visited the will of a whale for the few nano-seconds that I could bear the horror. I believe this thread extends even further than biology.

Life, as we all know is the principal lesson of evolution by natural selection, is shaped by death; but must it not also shape itself in order to make any sense as a changing system?

Perhaps not. It's a gamble.

I agree with this. Every living thing has a subjectivity, a perspective of/for experience. The "will" of one thing is probably not able to be tolerated by another thing, just because of the immensity of the difference.

Life does shape itself, definitely.
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03-27-2013, 04:53 AM (This post was last modified: 03-27-2013 04:56 AM by pezer.) Post: #18
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RE: Above Evolution
Random. Here is the key.

As I remember, last time we discussed this, someone said something fucking brilliant (and I do paraphrase): There is no such thing as a pure random generator. In the end, the physical computer itself will be the parameters. The smell of electricity is the computer's "randomness," it's WilltoPower. That which forms from the interaction of the components of the self and emerges with demands.

In a world of interconnectivity, as we have agreed upon above, surely this is proof of grand, terrifying and awe-striking potentialities of WilltoPower.
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03-27-2013, 07:01 AM (This post was last modified: 03-27-2013 07:22 AM by pezer.) Post: #19
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RE: Above Evolution
This video is long and isn't necessary for my arguments, but it is a fantastic illustration of the kind of thing I'm talking about. Feel free to continue the discussion without acknowledging it if you lack time or inclination.

This scientist is both more right than anybody, and a medieval thinker compared to what we can imagine imagining.

[flash(0,0)][/flash]

E: Above Evolution
Not potentialities of WilltoPower itself, since it only acts upon itself, but expressions of it. The only demand of WilltoPower is power, and all it can get is more WilltoPower. That is why I am still able to be horrified by the whale's will. That is the common thread, both the necessary Higgs boson of evolution by natural selection and a very real experience of life.

03-27-2013, 02:30 PM Post: #21
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RE: Above Evolution
What is most important about the WilltoPower is not the WilltoPower itself, its experience really is enough. What is important is what it tells us about our very real, concrete, day to day sorrounding world. There is no God! There is no otherworldlyness that threatens us! There is only WilltoPower, and we must focus only on the things that WilltoPower requires to thrive: only on pursuits of the world of Value, as knowable by Science.
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03-29-2013, 02:46 PM Post: #22
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RE: Above Evolution
And when I speak of science, I mean Post Evolution Science, the type that evolves.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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03-29-2013, 11:09 PM (This post was last modified: 03-29-2013 11:14 PM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #23
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RE: Above Evolution
Regarding the difference between, on the one hand unconscious beings that evolve through trial and error depending on their "fitness" and on the other, conscious creatures, humans, who fit into intellectual/mental schemata that allow them to exist and procreate without having to "survive" in the brutal sense - this seems a false dichotomy to me.

The mental world, the construct or "social contract" that we live by is not fundamentally different from, let's say "the ocean" or "primordial soup". It is our soup. It is true that a great deal of relatively physically unfit creatures is allowed to procreate, but there still is a standard for fitness, and this is all that matters to the argument, from a value ontology perspective.

After all, physicality is nothing but a standard to appropriate value (physicality). Intellect is such a standard, as are morals.

What evolves right now is the soup itself. This forum here, this new world order site, is an experiment in the evolving soup. We try to upgrade the substance of the soup that disallows for the good-old version of evolution. To make it less hospitable and rewarding for passivity.

Of course, this is a way to communicate to ourselves, to create a space for ourselves within the soup. But never in history did soup, sea, air or knowledge evolve linearly - rather always in trends. A bird finds out to pick through a milk-bottle cap in England, at the same time a bird finds out in New Zealand. Our seemingly isolated efforts are likely not as isolated as they may seem.

Evolution then will come as two strands of seemingly isolated effort meet and grab hold of each other. At that point an "adaption" occurs - a step to greater power. In a sports team, or in a war effort, the individual has to rely on the utmost effort of those he can not control or perceive. Philosophers (since Nietzsche especially) have to do the same. The Christians used to call this sort of thing "faith", but only the true fanatics knew how to arrange for this faith to come true. "God helps those who help themselves" is a theme that is recurring now as a meme - we are an interesting group in that we are no longer purely "ourselves" - we have already evolved.

The road is long and bleak and dark, yes. But we are so incredibly far advanced beyond those who have not even set out - we set out two years ago, and the road has further darkened, and it will likely continue to darken, but this is not a reason to cease the effort of making that road. Evolution comes at the end, as a result of this evolved tendency to pioneer. Evolution itself is a product of survival of the fittest. Only those that tend to grow toward a point where they may adapt to increased potential do evolve at all.

To find joy in the struggle is required to keep evolution going. It does not need to be an overwhelming or even a dominant joy, not at all - a grain of pleasure in the desert of pain.

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Guattari's Machinic Systems
Guattari held that there is something which can be described as a technological consciousness, a mechanic way of thinking that is at the same time human and extra-human (here I remember trajicomic, who really made some inroads into questioning what human is useful for anyway).

I believe this is one of those things where people are commonly simply not able in any sense to accept an abstract reality. The fact is that much of our behavior, of course even when we feel or think otherwise, is determined by machinic systems with a logic different from that of any (traditional?) human thinking. Baudrillard named it well as the homicidal action of science (I paraphrase). In this sense, it is an occult matter.

The reason these logics can persist and make evolutionary sense is the way they are able to blend with the process from which, after all, they were formed. Advanced technology and the consciousness it is linked to came into humanity's life well before our own animal processes were held to any important analysis and incorporation into, let's call it, ubermenschity. Thus, its own inertia is demolishing fetal things in us, and our own historical retardedness stands in the way of our curbing it in any significant way.

Guattari never liked simulations and stuff, and I guess the essential difference between him and Baudrillard is that Guattari held it all within the psychoanalytic human ether, while Baudrillard felt free to call this an inhuman, or human-less process. One may be more drawn to Baudrillard's brutal honesty, but Guattari's more remixed yet unitary approach offers as an end result a density of knowledge that is largely unmatched.
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03-30-2013, 03:51 PM Unread post Post: #2
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RE: Guattari's Machinic Systems
It's been a while since I read Guattari (and really only when he was merged with Deleuze) Baudrillard I have read some essays of, but frankly I just zone out. Bad machine gear mesh, his fault, my fault, who cares......
But could you give me some examples of what G is referring to as this technological consciousness as you see it, perhaps in your own mind, and what one does with this knowledge, if anything. What use is the insight?
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03-30-2013, 05:22 PM Unread post Post: #3
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RE: Guattari's Machinic Systems
Ah, you thought he was complaining!

In the case of Guattari, he was quite comfortable with the idea of a relentleslly self-dependent wilderness that we can interact with. That is, the world could make sense to him as inhuman. It was inhumanity within humanity that he seemed to me to dislike, and so he took all of what is inhuman about consciousness, patterns of neurological operation, and analyzed them into a kind of body of post-Marxism. The machinic unconscious, techno-consciousness, whatever, are simply the logistical human acts that machines require to function. In Baudrillard's case, this is seen as innately, or rather evolutionarily human.

What use?

Personally, I saw every single person I saw after that realization differently. For example, we have all been in a place where a logician or scientist dances some circles around us, making us feel less wise. I can now understand that feeling: it is the lack of machinic consciousness. The shame is almost the logician's now!
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03-31-2013, 08:24 AM Unread post Post: #4
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RE: Guattari's Machinic Systems
(03-30-2013 05:22 PM)pezer Wrote:
Ah, you thought he was complaining!
Actually I figured not, but I wasn't sure. Bad machine gears was me not understanding.

[/quote]
Still not sure I get it. concrete examples?
Seems like a contrast between mechanical processes in humans that continue existence, the whole sequence of automatic pilot taking the instameal out of the microwave and then shoving in mouth while watching sports news....and I am not sure what he is contrasting this with. But maybe that is not an example of what he means.

Quote:
What use?

Personally, I saw every single person I saw after that realization differently. For example, we have all been in a place where a logician or scientist dances some circles around us, making us feel less wise. I can now understand that feeling: it is the lack of machinic consciousness. The shame is almost the logician's now!
So when you are experiencing cognitive dissonence the machine processes have stopped for a moment?
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03-31-2013, 10:18 AM Unread post Post: #5
pezer Offline
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RE: Guattari's Machinic Systems
You may as well think of it as machinic logic, except then I would have posted this in the Philosophy forum.

He is contrasting it, like thinkers tend to with pointlesness, with opportunity cost, and also imaginary opportunity cost. What is it we are not doing? What is it we think we're not doing?

But the contrast is a tool in Baudrillard, not the point itself.

Effort, Leap, Perception
It has been thinking to me lately that effort is the basic unit of evolution. Unity is required... But where? Only in the beginning. Then it's all trajectories and equations. Effort describes unity of beginning.

This question would need to be tackled: whose effort is the owl shape of a butterfly's back?

Very theoretical! Let us take a leap.

Already, to choose praxis is risky, and to travel so short a while back in time puts us on a sure and steady course to crazyness. But to choose Praxis to post in... Why? Why the effort?

I was lead almost by the hand. I thought I was the tip of the drill, and suddenly a small wave of philosophers starts violating my walls, sometimes not even surpassing but jut being beyond my limits.

It's enough to make one jump into a rabbit hole!

What is it then, once I made the effort, took the leap, that remains?

My preconceived conclusion, of course: pure perception, in the style of paranoia, where effort and leaping is rendered meaningless.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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03-31-2013, 11:50 AM (This post was last modified: 03-31-2013 11:53 AM by Heathen.) Post: #2
Heathen Offline
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RE: Effort, Leap, Perception
(03-30-2013 06:18 PM)pezer Wrote:
It has been thinking to me lately that effort is the basic unit of evolution. Unity is required... But where? Only in the beginning. Then it's all trajectories and equations. Effort describes unity of beginning.

This question would need to be tackled: whose effort is the owl shape of a butterfly's back?
According to Darwinists either no one's - the machine of other things being eaten more and younger have 'last man standinged' them, so to speak; or the crashings of a lot of various localized individual efforts - predators and prey - leading to the statistical advantage of a pattern. If you have eyes on your back, good on ya. If they seem to be attracting predators instead, you might want to wear a cape, being housed in an individual and not being your whole species, let alone the system of your whole species and those species who prey on it. If it works for you to attract predators - cause you end up eating them - well, no cape is needed and effort could be put elsewhere.

Unless one's own mind/self is that system,with predators and prey - and most minds and selves seem like this - then you get to work with individual efforts based on received patterns.

If that seems to be working for you - or you really just want to let natural selection do the culling - then praxis can be no praxis, first thought is best thought, but not in the Buddhist developmental sense. Don't push the river, drown, live whatever......

If it does not seem to be working for one to be this predatory and prey system, internally, then some praxis might shift things where one will.

If the very idea of effort creates an internal predator, then some serious contemplation might be a good first step.

A hammer can certainly be used on your own head, but if you were hoping to pull out some nails instead of your own teeth, you don't know what you are doing when you reach for the hammer. Might be best to find that out and let more effortless desire then make the effort.
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03-31-2013, 12:31 PM Post: #3
pezer Offline
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RE: Effort, Leap, Perception
No, and you still don't understand my point about fear.

You are right in one thing: the more you let go, the more you will learn where you'd prefer to hang on. It only works if you listen though. Chanting blinds.

A Monkey on my Back
I have a monkey on my back, brought on by the usual: romanticism. Romanticism is like herpes; you can control it, minimize its damage, but you can never fully be rid of it. Non-romantics are usually good enough and kind enough to ignore it.

In my romantic dance with reality, I found Shaitan. Satan. Satanael. Lucifer. Luzbel.

Luzbel...

None of these things, that I love dearly, are real.

If I insist on bringing them up, it is because they point to very real philosophical ground. That ground that only Nietzsche has so far been able to scout without betrayal.

RE: A Monkey on my Back
Ok I will engage.

Once I was in a Lucifer trip, lasted for a couple of years. At the heat of it, I did a meditation, and was guided through the summer city. I walked like a blind man, just trusting my feet, trusting Lucifer to guide my feet. I ended up at a small bookmarket I did not know was there. I walked straight to a stand and picked up a large black book. On the back there was a small silver print: "White Magic".

I took the book home, and read from it. It was immediately clear that it was dangerous and if used to good measure, very powerful. I only ever used one technique out of it, possibly the most powerful technique I've done - the breathing of the soul.

Everything changed after I did that exercise a couple of times, lying on my apartments floor red carpet. Within a week, I had lifted a curse that was resting on my ancestral home. Within a month, I had acquired 50.000 euro's. A few months later I found myself visiting Faust in Maine, bought a van from his friend, and from there on things got even more interesting and rewarding.

Music.
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04-01-2013, 05:27 AM Post: #3
pezer Offline
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RE: A Monkey on my Back
That was one of the most powerful things I have ever read. How beauuuutifull!!!!!

But my path is already fraught with sacrifice, I will not stop here.

The path of the Nietzscheous is frought on all sides by the power of the eld and the inequities of those who must answer. For answers are the fruit of our labor, and these would seek to take it from us, give us back some juice of theirs that might or might not include our fruit. If they are smart it includes a scent of it.

The magician is our most fearsome enemy, and we love him more deeply than any other. They can court our hearts, only they have the right to tempt us out of truth. How beautiful their drawings....

Heart breaking.

I love you, executioner!! I love you so!

I will kill you and have no mercy. Then I might kill myself. Who knows, I will become quite powerful if I don't.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"

pezer wrote:The dark side is not your enemy, and it doesn't want to be your overbearing girlfriend either. The dark side just wants to be your friend, it wants to help you. It doesn't need to destroy what you like; it is you and likes it too.

If you don't accept the dark side of the force, it will continue to be repressed via complicated symbolic-cognitive-behavioral systems and funneled into the third world (including the poor of all countries). The dark side is honesty, which is clarity. To master it is on another level of worth from denying it. Those who fumble for it are funny in the way that fumbling people are, but perhaps they have a better chance of recovering from the fall from denial.

Johnny was a great example of a man using God as an excuse to deliver some smart cheese.

Bill Wiltrack wrote:.

..............................................................

.

RE: Accept the Dark Side
How dare you ever accuse me of excessive crypticness?
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03-13-2013, 01:39 PM Post: #4
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RE: Accept the Dark Side
So, what does accepting the dark side mean to you, Pezer?
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03-13-2013, 10:07 PM (This post was last modified: 03-13-2013 10:44 PM by JSS.) Post: #5
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RE: Accept the Dark Side
Hey there Moreno...
..welcome to the Nude World Order... wait I mean the New World Oder.. wait..hold on.. I'll get it..
..Natural World Oder??
...hmm...
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03-14-2013, 02:51 AM Post: #6
pezer Offline
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RE: Accept the Dark Side
That is a great question, Moreno.

Precisely the one I challenge any reader with cojones to ask themselves. The guy that wrote that song, who Cash covered, asked himself. He was a Christian about it, but by God he did ask himself.
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03-30-2013, 09:11 AM Post: #7
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RE: Accept the Dark Side
I haven't used that term so much, but I guess the dark side has always covered stuff that I can't 'see' well and that I judge(d) to be bad. ID, Shadow, naughty to evil impulses, the actual motivations which I can't face and so on. And then I started to explore what this stuff really was and what it felt like to integrate it. Return of energy, less guilt, less splits, etc.

I think there is other unintegrated stuff we are not conscious of, but that doesn't seem to fit what people focus on when they talk about the dark side - often in the assumptions/judgments area.

I also notice that people who talk about the dark side often focus more on the Yangy stuff, agressive sex and violence, hatred, and very dark ill will. All feeling good to integrate, but then the fear and confusion, for example, seem to get skipped over.

The Dark Side has a Dark Side.
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03-30-2013, 12:21 PM Post: #8
pezer Offline
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RE: Accept the Dark Side
Fear and confusion... I guess it depends on if all "dark" feelings where relegated to the dark side or if some where successfully kept from the get go, that is, if the inspiration for them was a constant that can be interacted with. Fore some feelings, we have simply amputated them from reality. Those are recoverable too.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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03-30-2013, 02:02 PM (This post was last modified: 03-30-2013 02:02 PM by Heathen.) Post: #9
Heathen Offline
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RE: Accept the Dark Side
(03-30-2013 12:21 PM)pezer Wrote:
Fear and confusion... I guess it depends on if all "dark" feelings where relegated to the dark side or if some where successfully kept from the get go,
Yes, people have different self-images from each other to protect. Some hide this, others that. I just notice that some who speak of contacting the dark side nevertheless never seem to develop a tolerance for confusion. The accept their will to power. They accept aggressive undercurrents in themselves. They accept urges to violence. And so on. And then they present as very certain all the time, often habitually 'owning' (cough, cough) nasty interpersonal jabs, which ends up being a habit of avoiding the terror of being uncertain especially where others can see it. And also fear in general is often not considered dark. That's just some sissy thing.

Others start with fear more up front and find this easier to accept, at least to some degree, and feel release and integration when going into anger, but rage and hate are still no, nos. And any hints of perpetrator like energies in themselves are judged, still as bad. Beyond dark. So they are left with integrating righteous anger, victim anger
all the nice angers
and not going down into the stuff that really goes against the good person they are always trying to be, even in this process of getting into the dark side.

Both patterns lack self-trust.

Must be others.

Quote:
Fore some feelings, we have simply amputated them from reality. Those are recoverable too.
So how do you recover them? A praxis question.
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03-30-2013, 05:35 PM Post: #10
pezer Offline
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RE: Accept the Dark Side
Fine, Heathen, I see where you are going.

It's all a matter of knowing that I don't know what I don't know, even if I might already know it. I trust myself deeper than the moment of lust, I know I cannot understand all of my decisions at any single moment. Confusion-san.

I dive in, fully in the knowledge that I am diving into... Water, dark water of unknown depths. "But I haven't resolved th-" "What about the fluffy in-" "Surely, we should try to calculate how l-" I look around me and have already forgotten what I was looking for. Only hanging on for dear life now exists. Fear-sama.

Those I'm comforable with, even. I wrote this post thinking of cruelty.

Cruelty is like all dark things and grows as it's ran from.

So yes, there is others. They are mostly me.

RE: Accept the Dark Side
Dive in....?

Roll around on the floor in the dark letting all the shit come out in sound?
Contemplate in neo-buddhist fashion watching the id like a movie?
Graffiti your darkest fantasy on a bank wall?
4) ?

Dive in?
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03-31-2013, 10:56 AM Post: #12
pezer Offline
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RE: Accept the Dark Side
Not quite...
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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03-31-2013, 11:12 AM Post: #13
Heathen Offline
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RE: Accept the Dark Side
yah, it was a question. But if you don't want to answer, that's fine.
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03-31-2013, 11:27 AM Post: #14
pezer Offline
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RE: Accept the Dark Side
You are asking me to specifically define fear. I'm doing my best.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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03-31-2013, 11:31 AM Post: #15
Heathen Offline
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RE: Accept the Dark Side
(03-31-2013 11:27 AM)pezer Wrote:
You are asking me to specifically define fear. I'm doing my best.
Actually I wanted to know what 'diving in' meant.

I thought you were answering my praxis question back here....

Quote:
Quote:Fore some feelings, we have simply amputated them from reality. Those are recoverable too.
Quote:
So how do you recover them? A praxis question.

So I took diving in to be how you recover them. I just didn't know what that meant. Perhaps it is simply obvious. You dive into the feelings, though if they are amputated, how do you get to them? Or perhaps just the intent carries you there.

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03-31-2013, 12:25 PM Post: #16
pezer Offline
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RE: Accept the Dark Side
Walking in leaps again... Is the view nice from up there? One would think there isn't much oxygen.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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03-31-2013, 01:20 PM Post: #17
Heathen Offline
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RE: Accept the Dark Side
OK. I lost interest in trying to communicate with you Pezer.
Must be comfy not quite ever really saying anything. Stay in your 'profound haze'.
Maybe you will run away again.
Either way, I will ignore you from here on out.
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03-31-2013, 01:21 PM Post: #18
pezer Offline
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RE: Accept the Dark Side
Maybe some day you'll decide to re-open communication.
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
- Thucydides

see it now?

Thunderbolt steers all things.
- Heraclitus

Fixed Cross
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### Re: New Moon Ashes

I'll be waiting.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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04-01-2013, 06:15 AM (This post was last modified: 04-01-2013 06:22 AM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #19
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RE: Accept the Dark Side
DEARTH
starscream
starskkream
OPTIMUS PLUNGE

curge
Flirt with Serge

COP IN THE BEVVY

Dark Corner LA Hood
Lums are on the corner. Crack is sold in solid quantities under laternlights, a police van drives by nothing happens.
A king sits in his bed accompanied by his queeen and a partyhat, a chessboard before his confused gaze.
Why is that - pawn now there?
His king stands erect but his queen wanders

over to him
clue in clue out, less clues for you sire.

I meant sir. But words are the icing - eat and have cake and why I said dove -

I get ow, also l the crows.
Frost nails one man
a letter from a dead king
full of empty words
carried through the wild to serve
the waste of man.
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04-01-2013, 06:24 AM Post: #20
pezer Offline
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RE: Accept the Dark Side
I have no fear,

I cast out to her, and it is in her hands now to save me.

Or I will fight. It must be as it must be.

I still see the temple... I will die with dreams if I die.

RE: Accept the Dark Side
When darkness came lurking I was working.
Treebird my pa looked over my shoulder.
Then came a thunderstrike in the eyes of my mother.
trust was broken without ever having known itself.
Well here commences good news, as all was wet and free.
life came back to dead mans hands and reaped the fallen tree.
the fruits were bright and sweet to taste tra tralala what glee.

++++++++

Here the poet dies a sudden heartattack and rises to Christ.
CHRIST:
What have you here?

POET
I have... nothing.

CHRIST
Why ... not?

POET
I spent it all.

CHRIST
Ah... on ... what?

POET
[pointing to the Earth]
Well, on them.

CRIST
Christ... Oh....

POEM.
Now can I get through?

CHRIST
Yes.... why not. Duck.

POET
[walking ahead through the magnificent and even more enormous gate]
For what?

CHRIST
You'll find out if you don't.
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04-01-2013, 06:41 AM Post: #22
pezer Offline
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RE: Accept the Dark Side
I don't get it. Why Christ?
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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04-01-2013, 06:42 AM Post: #23
pezer Offline
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RE: Accept the Dark Side
I see...
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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04-01-2013, 06:42 AM Post: #24
pezer Offline
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RE: Accept the Dark Side
We don't need him.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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04-01-2013, 06:43 AM Post: #25
pezer Offline
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RE: Accept the Dark Side
Must we do war?

Is science not enough?
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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04-01-2013, 06:44 AM Post: #26
pezer Offline
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RE: Accept the Dark Side
No. I suppose not.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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04-01-2013, 06:44 AM Post: #27
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RE: Accept the Dark Side
Because he did not give so that he received. Which means he did not give it to them at all.

And then Christ pulled the trick on him. The sheep-maker. The darkside-evil-maker. Normally the gate was high anough not to duck. But fear and doubt were instilled in the man. it had to be done.
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04-01-2013, 06:45 AM Post: #28
pezer Offline
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RE: Accept the Dark Side
Science is enough for the righteous. But the righteous are few, and Diplomats less.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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04-01-2013, 06:45 AM Post: #29
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RE: Accept the Dark Side
Enough for what?
I used Christ to tell a story.

I don't believe in "Him" or whatever -
I just know him, as Jesus, the theatre-miracle of Babylon.
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04-01-2013, 06:47 AM Post: #30
pezer Offline
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RE: Accept the Dark Side
To resign to fire... That is not science.

E: Accept the Dark Side
It is enough for strong alliance.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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04-01-2013, 06:53 AM (This post was last modified: 04-01-2013 06:53 AM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #32
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RE: Accept the Dark Side
I was raised without him that could help.
Thats how I like to refer to the religion once in a while - as a friendly afterthought.
Plus, they built cathedrals.
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04-01-2013, 06:59 AM Post: #33
pezer Offline
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RE: Accept the Dark Side

Japanese bullshit stories are the best and most true bullshit stories.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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04-01-2013, 07:01 AM Post: #34
pezer Offline
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RE: Accept the Dark Side
Except you failed with me, I live still, and I am not a martyr.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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04-01-2013, 07:01 AM Post: #35
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RE: Accept the Dark Side
Jesus is of worth the same way as any God revered by man - a potency, a valency.
You have strong reservations, and this is logical as we can not think without reservations toward such a concept as a son of God.
I have a bit of respect for him knowing some of the men who have believed in the myth to be meaningful and magickal, and respecting their acts as manly and archaic, real as stone blood, and not at all forgiving of bullshit.
I can't help to have a little respect for Christianity. Especially after seeing the interior of the "tip" here:

http://scenery-wallpapers.com/walls/mont...normal.jpg

It's not "my thing" in the sense of priesthood - but the warriorquality of building this fortress, in order to build this abbey on top - this is just in one word admirable.
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04-01-2013, 07:07 AM Post: #36
pezer Offline
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RE: Accept the Dark Side
When I saw your face the first time, didn't I almost sing of glee from having found an enemy?

It was not because you are different than me, it is because you are almost reversed. And because you are different.

I come "from" Jesus, son of God. From. I am a herald of that land that you discovered, too late.

You describe it aptly and with Truth. You are a man of Truth.

It is only Right that you should struggle madly with Jesus.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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04-01-2013, 07:08 AM (This post was last modified: 04-01-2013 07:09 AM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #37
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RE: Accept the Dark Side
There is an open garden on the top- a regular cloister - patio, with a gallery and a "sacred" square of green in the middle. Outside the wind is howling at 100 km/h. I opened one to a crack of the shutters in one of the halls of stone preceding the open garden - the force of the wind blasted through the hall and I was instantly in the middle ages, as real as I've ever been. And it was not un-awesome.
I once had a vision. It reminded me that Christians knew a thing or two about fear, and thus of respect.

Respect can come without fear. But fear can not come without respect.
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04-01-2013, 07:11 AM Post: #38
pezer Offline
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RE: Accept the Dark Side
Are we not more powerful yet than Machiavello?

How long will it take?

E: Accept the Dark Side
Answer me Fixed Cross, or don't.

Why do you have to lie, whilst I feel free of it?

Angels Don't Hug
As I delve deeper into Satanism, the revelations get better and better. Dig this one, bet it never occurred to you: angels don't hug!

They show up, in some firey display of might, lay onto you some dope werdz and gtfo. Maybe the "Holy spirit" can have sex with girls, maybe, and I'm more and more convinced anyway that the holy spirit is Satan. Plus, is hugging strictly necessary for sex?

Now Shaitan, as the eloquent Arabs call 'im, is sometimes seduction itself, woman, Shaitan loves life and Man and, like all who suffer that affliction, loves to hug.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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03-31-2013, 05:21 AM Post: #2
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RE: Angels Don't Hug
Angels might not "hug", but they can sure fuck you up.
..or cover you with kindness.
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03-31-2013, 06:14 AM Post: #3
pezer Offline
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RE: Angels Don't Hug
"Angels might not "hug", but they can sure fuck you up."

And herein lies the key to faith.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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03-31-2013, 07:46 AM (This post was last modified: 03-31-2013 07:52 AM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #4
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RE: Angels Don't Hug
[this was gay]
It is not always bad to be beaten down by an angel, as long as the fight is chivalrous.
Angels who are not chivalrous -

what are their names?
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03-31-2013, 07:54 AM (This post was last modified: 03-31-2013 07:57 AM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #5
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RE: Angels Don't Hug
Aren't angeles "Gay" in the common sense?
Is not the Satan myth the castration of God, Gods penis running away from him?

Gods other "angels", his attributes, are not nearly as valuable to him as his obelisk-inspiring Godhood.
But this was only to keep God from those who let him be kept.

This God-in-the-closet aspect was always what inspired excess, religious dedication, marvelous art because being unseen yet known is the most godly feature.

Now God is made bland and dead by science. God used to be more or less autonomous, now he only exists as logic to us. Satanael is illogical, irrational, takes the space between problem and solution, and sometimes becomes where God cannot - pure justification.
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03-31-2013, 08:15 AM Post: #6
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RE: Angels Don't Hug
All Monotheists know to predict the rise of the Antichrist, precisely because God's closeted essence is not God's, and even the closet isn't. Satan is like the ball of real that was produced from the fancyhood of Godly constructs. All the other angels are Diplomats, trying to mediate.

Now God is dead, Satan is curiously still vibrant.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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03-31-2013, 10:45 PM (This post was last modified: 03-31-2013 11:36 PM by JSS.) Post: #7
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RE: Angels Don't Hug
God isn't dead, He's just waiting for people to get through their anx.

Btw, an angel is a stratagem. An archangel is a fundamental stratagem underlying many others. And God is the stratagem underlying all of them, the "Head Angel".

The "Devil" is also a stratagem, a really serious one, based on giving people Hell.

So in the Bible when they said , "she knew the angel", they meant what they said. The whole "sex" thing, as usual, was merely another of many tempting distractions to keep people off course chasing a "space alien" story, with the final intent of making the Church seem like silly superstitious fools.
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04-01-2013, 02:52 AM Post: #8
pezer Offline
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RE: Angels Don't Hug
They ARE silly superstitious fools. That everybody else also is doesn't change that.

You did do one good thing for me today, O JSS. You confirmed for me, from a Christian perspective, that God was just another Demon. The tyrant of Heaven.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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04-01-2013, 03:56 AM (This post was last modified: 04-01-2013 03:56 AM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #9
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RE: Angels Don't Hug
God is not contextual.
How can he exist?

Only as context-creating. A standard and its minimum requirements. God is the potency of there being anything at all. For things the exist there must be difference, for there to be difference change is required. For change we must have comparable instances, which requires 'slowness', constancy, and its interaction with other slow constancies. The separation of bits of affect is qua measure defined by their capacity to relate to each other. This means 'to interpret in terms of self-value'. -
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04-01-2013, 05:33 AM Unread post Post: #10
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RE: Angels Don't Hug
(04-01-2013 03:56 AM)Fixed Cross Wrote:
God is the potency of there being anything at all.
Otherwise known as a "potential".

(04-01-2013 03:56 AM)Fixed Cross Wrote:
The separation of bits of affect is qua measure defined by their capacity to relate to each other. This means 'to interpret in terms of self-value'. -
Yep.
There can't be a self until there is a not-self as well.

RE: Angels Don't Hug
(04-01-2013 05:33 AM)JSS Wrote:
(04-01-2013 03:56 AM)Fixed Cross Wrote:
God is the potency of there being anything at all.
Otherwise known as a "potential".

(04-01-2013 03:56 AM)Fixed Cross Wrote:
The separation of bits of affect is qua measure defined by their capacity to relate to each other. This means 'to interpret in terms of self-value'. -
Yep.
There can't be a self until there is a not-self as well.

To call potential itself God is, ironically, quite Satanic in action.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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04-01-2013, 07:15 AM Post: #12
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RE: Angels Don't Hug
(04-01-2013 06:09 AM)pezer Wrote:
To call potential itself God is, ironically, quite Satanic in action.
Just because God is potential doesn't mean that potential is God.
Get your set theory straight. Wink
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04-01-2013, 07:18 AM Post: #13
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RE: Angels Don't Hug
I did misunderstand, then.

It might not be Satanic in that case, but it's still certainly demonic.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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04-01-2013, 07:36 AM (This post was last modified: 04-01-2013 07:37 AM by JSS.) Post: #14
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RE: Angels Don't Hug
"Demonic" means "dividing the whole", or "de-unifying".
What would God be de-unifying that God didn't create already de-unified?

God, as a strategy, is a unifying principle, because there is only one of Him and IF everyone accepts Him, then everyone cooperates (not that you would guess that by the history of the apes).

God = let's all agree to agree.
Devil = let's all agree to disagree.
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04-01-2013, 07:40 AM Post: #15
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RE: Angels Don't Hug
If everyone agrees to eat dirt at 2:00 pm every day, then everyone cooperates.

God: let's all agree to stop sensing, perceiving and thinking.

Devil: Fucking never, God bitch.

New Mythology
What are the Gods of today?

- Jah Rastafari
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03-03-2013, 05:45 AM (This post was last modified: 03-03-2013 05:46 AM by JSS.) Post: #2
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