can western and near-east societies understand each other?

Reading about a Dutch woman, who when visiting Katar was raped and then charged with unlawful intercourse, I came to think that the way we think in Europe and the Near-East is so different, that we can hardly find agreement.

There are a million examples of this, the most prominent of which are the antics of the Turkish President, who is presently annoying just about everybody and making our differences very clear.
The strange thing is that there are Muslims living in the West who equally fail to understand the man.

Perhaps it is just that they have come to understand and value a more rational look at things and understand that we can’t make progress, and keep outmoded laws in place at the same time.

What do you think?

I think Erdogan is just playing to a narrow base for support… plenty of strong men in banana republics around the world parallel him, has no link to Islamic views on rape… in fact Erdogan has very little authentic links to Islam period. He is about as Islamic as Hugo Chavez was a socialist… surface deep resemblances only, and only on the fairest of days. Why does this work? I don’t fully know why… I just know the damn phenomena is widespread. It predates Mussolini, so you can’t just blame him. It has been around for a while.

And not all Muslims rape, many are more civilized than me or you even in this area, by our own standards… just I pragmatically completely expect rape and theft and other abuses to occur if a western country was to suddenly pluck a large population of these men, with no introduction to western mores courses and a period of breaking in, camped out at a barracks, slowly integrating into western civilization in spurts. My town has several Muslims, they don’t go around raping people… worst I’ve seen them do is dodge resell taxes by buying Soda in bulk from Walmart, reselling it at their shop… mostly Yemeni… they come a little at a time, are told what to expect long in advanced, and are helped to adapt by later newcomers.

I’m of German descent, Pennsylvania Dutch… Benjamin Franklin and other WASPs weren’t too happy with us showing up, setting up shops in German only, not speaking English. That is when my people first came… you fast forward 140 years, Germans coming over had nothing in common with western civilization, they had Nazi Party rallies, brought a lot of Anti-Semitism with them… it wasn’t like it didn’t exist in the US prior, but it was rather tame… a lot of our racist copied it.

Yet now… Germans emigrating aren’t walking around stiff knee, shouting slurs, or starting German only shops, isolating. They got in much better now, which we can safely assume if from the US firebombing the hell out of Germany all those years.

So the moral of the story is to firebomb cultures who differ, and when they immigrate, they become bicycle mechanics or run cafe deli shops…

Wait no, that’s not what I mean… maybe I’m off about the firebombings… cause even if it is true it sounds offensive. Let me rephrase this so it is palatable…

They are fucked up for the mist part but are modern, same world as we are, and new ideas are on the periphery of their decision making process. I doubt rape is as likely in their future, anymore than it is for us now compared to pass eras. They are fucked up for the most part currently, but not all, and we are seeing a tipping point in their awareness that their old excuses for Jihading indiscriminately and raping booty that walks by isn’t acceptible anymore.

I still recommend only a trickle migration of them to any given location around the world, and their introduction coached by fellow native Muslims, or kept around security and educated/intimidated into why they shouldn’t do certain things, like steal your shit and rape women.

If that doesn’t work in the long term, firebombings are always a recourse. I just doubt that will be needed… they seem to be doing this to themselves and are coming to grips with why being a bunch of fucking medieval shitheads is bad for them. Every Muslim country us addressing this issue in their separate ways… what will the middle east look like in five generations? You gotta keep a long eye view to these things.

theonion.com/article/fbi-dis … -aft-53076

The story about the woman who was raped was actually only my access to the subject, not the subject itself, which was more about mentality. There is no doubt in my mind that Muslims are normally honourable people and that Islamic culture is rich and beautiful. The question I was posing is more on the grounds of taking a Muslim from an Arabic country and planting them in the West, or vice-versa, taking someone from the West and planting them in an Arabic/Muslim setting, and how they would come to terms with the differences? Or, alternatively, can one country, like Turkey or Iran, expect a Western country to respect their dislike of certain behaviours to the degree that, for example, caricatures of Mohammed are forbidden, or homosexuality is hidden from the public eye?

I have personally experienced a Polish woman, when on an outing on the Nile, who was wearing cut-off jeans which revealed at least her underwear – perhaps more – and the reaction of the young Muslim boy who was sailing the boat, who was clearly taken aback by the sight. Shortly afterwards, the group was caught up in a demonstration of Muslim women and our guide had us run to safety. The woman couldn’t understand that her dress could provoke such emotionally high spirits to react against her. The story of the Dutch woman reminded me of a story I heard about a German girl who was sleeping around with Muslim men in Tunisia whilst on holiday. As long as things were bearable, nothing would happen to the girl, but if she claimed to have been raped, who knows whether she might have been arrested on similar charges to the Dutch woman.

The promiscuity of Western society, especially that of women, is an eyesore to the Muslims, but as we have now seen, also the homosexuals are seen in the same light. Although this must be well known, European women continue to go topless in Muslim countries, and wear flimsy clothing in public places, and men encourage that. On the other hand, Muslims fail to accept that the freedom of expression in the West also allows promiscuity – which is probably by Western standards not widespread, but by Muslim standards, it is rampant. These subjects are emotionally charged.

What is the solution?

What is the solution? Sweaters.

Yes, westerners can be individually plucked and pit in the middle east without much issue, just what you expect from immigration.

Yes… don’t shoot me liberals for saying this, the middle east is fucked up culturally, and Muslims know we know this, and we know the Muslims know we know it, but we don’t always know the Muslims know that we know this, so it can take a comedic turn.

I honestly do not know why in the hell women vacation in the middle east and strip half naked, if they are completely clueless (how did they find their way to such a location by being so damn clueless?). It be like me getting up on stilts while dressed as Uncle Sam, walking down rural roads towards Marxist Guerilla hideouts in MesoAmerica, sacking at a drum… I’m gonna pick up some flabbergasted attention. A woman’s body has the same effect, especially when your literally the only woman around doing that. Honestly, what the hell is going on in these women’s head… is the mental hamster even on the wheel running, or is it snuggled up and napping the foreign vacation away?

I don’t consider such idiot girls drunk off feminism, not aware of anything, western women. Western women have a combination of intelligence and situational modesty… the ability and shame to know when to cover up and when it is okay not to. Yeah… being a voluntary beach slut, getting gang banged… especially if you look racially exotic to men, will attract ALOT of men, and everyone wants their turn, and not all will treat you with respect… some are going to think very, very lowly of you, some are potentially unhinged, especially if they felt they were arbitrarily denied access when so and so was allowed to pump away.

Such a slut is liable to get get ass threatened, beaten or killed in any society… you can drop her anywhere on the planet, Buddhist Tibet, and your going to get similar results. The mentality of men at gangbands represents men at their primal level, it doesn’t represent the wider concept of democracy or socialism, capitalism or communism.

If we are to charge Islam as a institution within these states with anything, it is by the social acceptance and penalties it offers for such men, how it tries to prevent this from happening in the first place, how it deals with the aftermath.

Generically, it does quite poorly. Is this Islam’s fault per doctrine, or per application in the local culture? I think it is the latter. I don’t think a conservative yet world educated Imam… and every Islamic nation have these guys, is gonna approve of his flock banging the western slut on a beach, for much the same reasons why priests in the west of a similar mindset don’t here. It is just a bad idea for so many reasons, and his instinct wouldn’t be a Inquisition but to throw a towel or blanket on the bitch and cold water on the guys, especially if it was already turning violent. Do you even need the Koran or Bible or any text on ethics or morality for the commonsense of dealing with that situation?

They aren’t gonna stone some dumb girl half naked on a boat ride… they can pick up she clearly comes from somewhere where walking around poorly dressed (and that is poorly dressed in the west too… as a guy, if I bend over and you can see my SpongeBob underwear, I’m needing a belt). Dropping a word of advice to wear clothes capable of covering your undies in a conservative area isn’t wrong. If she starts bobbleheading screaming “How dare you say these things, I have the right yo peace around half naked in public, I’m a stupid feminist from a foreign country” he can point out she is in a foreign land, that he does in fact have that right, he can point towards other nearby women (who definitely have noticed and will wave their hands at stupid girl so she will notice their example (duh moment)) and simply say “When in Rome, do as the Romans do”.

We have Westerners all over the middle east. They get along swell for the most part. We have some obvious exceptions. It doesn’t always occur to us that Muslims are pretty modern themselves, and know damn well from TV and literature, and observing other tourists, how we are. It is when you go wandering off the beaten path into rural areas, or parts of the city not used to visitors, problems arise… but hell… this happens in Japan even. You can’t go into parts of Tokyo, sit your butt down in any small restaurant, and expect to be waited on, no matter how good your Japanese is. Everyone is gonna stare at you shocked. I’m sure our rural mom & pop restaurants here offer the same experience for Chinese and Arab travelers who find they fit in so we’ll in NYC, why not try the famous Grundy, Virginia cafe experience, coming in as foreign as possible. Roll out your prayer mat, do the call to prayer in the middle if the restaurant… you know the owner is calling the FBI and loading his gun just in case.

Clueless rednecks exist everywhere. Just how life is, welcome to the planet earth.

It reminds me of this story, where a Western woman in Dubai claimed she was raped after she agreed to have drinks with her co-worker after work. They went to a hotel, where she said she was raped. The general attitude by the community was that if a woman agrees to drink alcohol with a strange man, she’s essentially giving consent to sex. (in other words, no decent woman would put herself in such a compromising situation in the first place).
So, the fault was placed on her.

Its not just them Pandora, we had the exact same expectation in the west up till near modern times. It is inherited from antiquity, linking promiscuity with intoxication. Lots of medieval art showing this, and it is a theme played on to this present.

I don’t drink, and especially don’t rape, and I certainly wouldn’t sleep with a drunk girl (idea creeps me out) even if she was willing, much less rape her while drunk. The people who point out the common sense of these matters don’t advocate it’s happening… just, women need more common sense… don’t accept gifts from a man and go to a secluded fuck spot. No means no and all that jazz… but like, duh… don’t do this shit. It is hard to drill into guys the necessity of self control when you have a legion of idiot girls making it all to easy. Smart girls may come under attack, but they don’t let themselves easily find themselves in a place to get attacked either. Some strategic realism needs to take place in Feminist circles. Yeah… bad boys for rape, but don’t make it easy on the woman’s part either for these classic situations to arise in the first place. You put locks on the doors and windows to keep bad people out, you should avoid obvious situations to keep a guy good. I never raped a woman, so can’t guess exactly what occurs, but know a few… they seem nice guys, then they are arrested, and you hear this wild story… hard to tell who will do what. Decent guys turn scumbags, seeming shitheads go on to marry and live sound lifestyles.

Yes, this is one of the prime examples of the difference between middle east and western societies, although, as Turd says, this hasn’t always been so and sometimes there is no difference. I came to Germany 40 years ago with an idea planted in my head that German women were promiscuous. It didn’t take long to realise that, yes, there was a difference to my experience in Britain, but it was a generalisation that didn’t fit 99% of German women.

The way we generalise based on few “facts” has become worse the more we get our information off the internet. Someone posts something and at least 2,000 people think it’s true (I think it may be ten times as many). We fail to remind ourselves, that bizarre stories are told by bizarre people, and that they are generally the loudest. The silent majority is wiser, although not necessarily wise, and may comment, but commonly moves on to the next snippet. But attitudes are being formed by the mass of information we take in, and we often don’t notice it.

This is also true for people in Muslim countries, for people from Muslim countries living in the west, which explains why the ridiculous developments in the west are mirrored by ridiculous developments in the middle east. This is why western people can be radicalised, just as people from other countries, living abroad, can also be radicalised. The internet offers us a vast diversity - but can we handle it? We can’t handle twitter really, so how are we going to cope with so very much more?

Having said that, how do people living in a militant, or men dominated society cope with this all? Is this not what we are witnessing? Prejudices and preconceptions on both sides, self-fulfilling prophecies, and a blind eye to one’s own failings, leading to an unsafe world - especially for women, who have to be very careful.

Women always had to be careful, prior to our species evolving. Chimps can rape and abuse (not Bonobos though, they can try but become outcasts).

Each great ape species takes a different take. At no point were females dominate, even in matriarchial societies. They lead the family, society, but I’m absolutely certain rape still happened. Having the say in finances, and social decisions by custom doesn’t mean a young man isn’t going to leap on a fine looking woman if driven by hormones.

I think I take your point …

I’m in Spain at present, in Jerez, where Muslims Jews and Christians once had 500 years of prosperity, cultural development and a common understanding, until the Catholic King and Queen started up the Inquisition and started converting Jews and driving Muslims out, marking towns as “de la Fronterra” when they had been “cleaned up” and the land given to those who took over in place of the Muslim landowners.

There must have been, therefore, a time when the theistic religions could accept each other in that stretch of land, and were able to profit from each other. It just takes someone to assert the status quo as they see it, and it all goes to pot.

Having had a look around Sevilla and other towns, you can see the mixture of influences clearly, and on our way around, we discussed how it took a while for the Christians to conform completely to the standards of the Catholic Church, having taken on Jewish and Muslim mysticism to some degree, which was not welcomed by the inquisition.

Therefore, the natural way of things, it would seem, would be to grow together, but there is always that element, which struggles to prevent that in all societies.

I was talking to a Turkish translator, who for a while had worked in Berlin on the integration of Turks living in Germany. He told us that there were people who told him proudly that they had avoided integration at all costs. He and we were at a loss, since they came to Germany to prosper, but the one thing that would have helped them most, they avoided.

Really?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Convivencia

fountainmagazine.com/Issue/d … -july-2013

So the question is : was the Muslim rule of Spain guided by “the Qu’ran’s inclusive spirit” or by some other spirit?

By 1492, the Golden Age of Islam was over. The religious authorities were exerting increasing influence and there was a shutting down of freedoms as exemplified by the decline in science and mathematics. How did that translate to Muslim Spain? Lots of historians have expressed their opinions.

We are far removed from that time and place and we tend to romanticize it.

Fast forward to today. Most Muslim governments are guided by fundamentalism and intolerance. Who wants to live in Pakistan or Bangladesh? Who wants Sharia law?

The inability to find peace in the Middle East speaks volumes in itself.

I agree that we must not romanticise history, but the Spanish inquisition did its best to put the sharia in the shadows. Forcing the supposed “conversion” of Jews and then not believing them was just one crime that these Christian law enforcers committed, there are of course more examples.

I think that we have to accept that it was a violent time, and of course, Christopher Columbus was the starting point of the Christian conquering of the Americas, again with consequences that have nothing to do with the Gospel.

The question remains, whether theistic religions have, by definition, to be exclusive and their Gods competitive, considering the fact that the Quran has this verse that is inclusive. Is it religious or rather political, when these people kill each other?

What part has the foreign policies of the West in the animosity felt in the Muslim world against the “crusaders”?

My point is that this thread is absurd where there isn’t any reason as to why western and eastern societies can’t or couldn’t understand each other even with cultural differences aside.

Hey, that’s good news. It means you don’t have to bother with us. Goodbye!

Trying to sway me to go away will just keep me here. Don’t you know anything?

I wrote this to a friend:

I know that my outlook is not widely accepted, but the cultural interaction, even in conflict, is far more influential than we are willing to accept. Fundamentalism tries to prevent interaction of the religions, and conserves a mode of thought that soon begins to become dated, failing to keep up with social developments – indeed rejecting such developments as evil. That is why, in a given framework, mystics of all the traditions have been able to appreciate each other, and even discover similarities in purpose, intention and practise. They in fact become progressive and are generally threatened with death by those powers, which guard the traditions.

Therefore, there are people using cultural differences to incite conflict, separating rather than bringing us closer. Their reasons are their own, but they are not in the interest of humanity.

* I added this for explanation of the following sentence …