Who here is an alpha male?

Half-formed posts, inchoate philosophies, and the germs of deep thought.

Re: Who here is an alpha male?

Postby cheegster » Sat May 07, 2011 5:01 pm

I wouldn't say that any of the charcteristics mentioned in the OP are necessitated by being an alpha male. A couple of them are often bi-products but that's about it.

Also it depends a lot on what group you are in. Sometimes I am alpha male, but other times I am not.
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Re: Who here is an alpha male?

Postby fuse » Sat May 07, 2011 8:19 pm

So if Silhouette is off base with his idea of an alpha male, can we get some alternate conceptions?
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Re: Who here is an alpha male?

Postby minesadorada » Sun May 08, 2011 9:02 am

It's easy to confuse self-confidence with arrogance. I think that is where the 'douche-bag' comments are aimed.

Confidence is sexually attractive, but men (particularly young men) are notorious false advertisers, a trait most successful women are especially tuned in to.
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Re: Who here is an alpha male?

Postby Silhouette » Sun May 08, 2011 2:35 pm

minesadorada wrote:Confidence is sexually attractive, but men (particularly young men) are notorious false advertisers, a trait most successful women are especially tuned in to.

This is exactly right, such false advertising often comes in the form of outrageous boasts - which fits very nicely into the definition of arrogance: "making claims or pretensions to superior importance or rights; overbearingly assuming; insolently proud".

Arrogance is only interpreted as negative in those who do not have the self-centred imperviousness and the being fine with it (confidence) - to "back it up". But often the claims themselves can be left completely unproved, as long as the male is alpha enough to arrogantly puff himself up with enough imposition and threatening dominance.

So whilst arrogance doesn't pertain to "alpha-ness", "alpha-ness" does contain arrogance.
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Re: Who here is an alpha male?

Postby Ascolo Parodites » Sun May 08, 2011 2:52 pm

What happens when the impulse to lead, an alpha nature, is combined with an aversion to other people, and an anti-social nature?
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Re: Who here is an alpha male?

Postby Silhouette » Sun May 08, 2011 3:51 pm

I expect plenty of non-alpha males strive for leadership - in other species the alpha doesn't really last particularly long, sooner or later they are challenged and replaced. Rankings are in flux.

But in other species there is a fairly fixed group setting, because they rely much more on solid communal grouping. Human groups increasingly fluctuate with our lack of need to stick together, extra stimulation in getting around, and our economy that encourages high-paced, mobile individualism. This exposes us to myriad environments for every version of the many different social groups we involve ourselves in.

An internet forum will exhibit ranking despite differing from normal social interaction. Technologies have broadened social environments, or arguably "desecrated" them by allowing other environments to flourish that don't fill out the full requirements that social environments "ought to have". But internet environments are clearly not just crippled normal social environments, they bring out different aspects of social interaction for every aspect of normal interaction they sacrifice.

The point is that an anti-social nature in normal social environments may not be an anti-social nature in other social environments.

An impulse to lead is constrained to the group environment and subject to the other group members. Potentially all males are alphas in some environment or other. This goes back to what I said about "a group of two" exhibiting more "alpha-ness" in one member than the other, but in the wider array of social environments they may not be that alpha at all. This means that potential alphas are not alphas.

Though in small groups, the "more alpha" male may get accustomed to "alpha-ness" over time in only this group environment, and this might pass back over to a wider environment once re-exposed.

But for all these nuances, the cold hard reality is that if you are unable to sublimate your impulse to lead, you are not an alpha.
And if the wider social environment that you have access to, that has access to you, does not bring out the alpha in you, you are not an alpha - no matter how relatively "more alpha" you are in temporary or limited group environments.
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Re: Who here is an alpha male?

Postby Silhouette » Sun May 08, 2011 3:57 pm

Yes I am defining the alpha male fairly ruthlessly.

The king of some group of geeks may be their alpha, but to the wider population they are nothing much at all. The wider the environment, the more true they will be to the OP characteristics, and the more recognisable they will be as "alpha male" in general.

The main interest inspiring this OP was to test how much this comes out in such a social environment as this forum. Or perhaps philosophers in general. So far nobody has really stood out as being particularly alpha, which is somewhat interesting.

Any who have "reserved themselves" from such an "immature" test is clearly not alpha - for all their self control and maturity, this is exactly what keeps one lower in the rankings of social groups in general. A real alpha is much more contesting regardless.
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Re: Who here is an alpha male?

Postby tentative » Sun May 08, 2011 4:20 pm

The greater the alpha-ness, the more isolated the individual becomes, regardless their so-called social "networking". I would suspect that you would find few examples of your definition on the internet. Alphas are control people, and if you try alpha-ing me, all you get here is fuck off and one click of the mouse, you disappear. So much for being an alpha male on the internet. We've seen those people who come in ready to tell everyone "how it is". They don't last long. Why? Because they can't control the venue. I would go so far as to say that there is no such thing as alpha anything on the internet, even though carleas might want to argue the point.

I agree that we all have certain roles where we may act out alpha behaviors. I have never chosen a leadership role (not alpha) but I have been a leader in several circumtances and may god help you if you fucked with me. But here on the net? I don't see alpha as a viable role.
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Re: Who here is an alpha male?

Postby statiktech » Sun May 08, 2011 4:32 pm

Silhouette wrote:
statiktech wrote:The former just isn't to be trusted, assuming the characteristics listed are of honest sentiment. The latter is an actor in the worst sense, and, in the end, a joke.

Of course it is to be trusted. Not trusted to give you an equal share or sacrifice itself so you may live, but trusted to be the one to look to for direction and capablity in handling situations. They can be counted on to be good company and a symbol of cool strength.


You honestly find those characteristics you listed to be those of a trustworthy person?

    Silhouette wrote:Arrogant,
    Self-centred,
    Uncaring,
    Unapologetic,
    Selfish,
    and fine with it.

You can't be serious. A symbol of strength inasmuch as he is detached from emotion, maybe. Looking to such a person for direction would probably result in your employment as means for his own ends. I don't see the appeal or the logic.

This isn't a costume, you said it yourself that it can be arrived at naturally. As such it will be reliably what it is, and not faulter.


A person who is naturally as described is the most dangerous. That is the person I'm talking about, who is of honest sentiment in all those characteristics. You're describing someone who doesn't care because he doesn't have to, and doesn't want to.

The actor will experience holes in his performance because so much of being an alpha is genuine comfort in his position, at all times immediately drawing from the subtlest of experiences. Acting can be very good though, and a good actor may find he no longer needs to act once his acting pays off. Then he too can be trusted.


Sure, but on the other hand, sometimes the actor becomes his act.
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Re: Who here is an alpha male?

Postby Silhouette » Mon May 09, 2011 1:35 am

tentative wrote:I agree that we all have certain roles where we may act out alpha behaviors. I have never chosen a leadership role (not alpha) but I have been a leader in several circumtances and may god help you if you fucked with me. But here on the net? I don't see alpha as a viable role.

Hehe :D I like the boasting! More of that and I might have to "alpha you" :wink:

I've seen a fair amount of "those people who come in ready to tell everyone "how it is" ", but they're clearly not alphas are they. Some have even been pretty intelligent and had good points, but their attitude completely betrays how familiar they are with being a lower rank. That is why they cannot control the venue.

I'm not going to get deleted from this place because of how I am. So do the "big guy moderators" control me or do I control them? Being alpha is more than being the one who has menial cleaning power with regard to unworthy members of an internet forum group.

As for your threat of telling me to "fuck off" if I try to "alpha you", clicking your mouse and making me disappear, it's about how this is perceived by the group. You won't have usurped me or anything like that if you back off, right? It's not particularly dominant just because you have the "power" to do that. Anyone can back out of this thread, or continue to not participate, but none of this is challenging - that's up to you and them. It's not a reflection on me.

statiktech wrote:
Silhouette wrote:
statiktech wrote:The former just isn't to be trusted, assuming the characteristics listed are of honest sentiment. The latter is an actor in the worst sense, and, in the end, a joke.

Of course it is to be trusted. Not trusted to give you an equal share or sacrifice itself so you may live, but trusted to be the one to look to for direction and capablity in handling situations. They can be counted on to be good company and a symbol of cool strength.


You honestly find those characteristics you listed to be those of a trustworthy person?

Trustworthy of what? You'll have to explain what you mean by this. You want to tell them all your secrets or something? It's a predictable role, the alpha. What more do you need for trust than predictability?

statiktech wrote:You can't be serious. A symbol of strength inasmuch as he is detached from emotion, maybe.

There is nothing necessarily emotionally detached in the OP characteristics. They might not be emotionally sympathetic with certain people who they're not particularly caring about, but that doesn't mean they're not emotionally engaged at all. It takes plenty of emotion to be an alpha, but there's a difference between being selectively emotional and being indiscriminately sympathetic - and it's not that the former is emotionally detached.

statiktech wrote:Looking to such a person for direction would probably result in your employment as means for his own ends. I don't see the appeal or the logic.

A person who is naturally as described is the most dangerous. That is the person I'm talking about, who is of honest sentiment in all those characteristics. You're describing someone who doesn't care because he doesn't have to, and doesn't want to.

Are you saying that all the alphas of all those species out there are dangerous to those they lead? Not caring doesn't mean those who are uncared for by the leader are worse off.
Are you implying that care is the best and only way to be better off? A group being protected by an uncaring leader isn't necessarily a contradiction. Somebody's own means might intentionally or unintentionally serve your own - but who cares about intention when all you are looking for is that your interests be served?

statiktech wrote:Sure, but on the other hand, sometimes the actor becomes his act.

And on the other other hand, the act can become what is most sexually appealing as well as what is most powerful. There is nothing that necessitates that an alpha must be genuine and completely open. Some masks are more appropriate than others, and who said the strong cannot wear masks out of richness? Acts aren't only for the weak and needy.

Perhaps this is what you mean by trustworthy. Nothing forces the alpha to be completely genuine and open, preventing you from emotionally engaging with him - though he may choose to let you. This is a cause for some to not want to trust him, not that he can not be trusted. Others may prefer to trust a man with many masks - they keep things in as well as keeping things out. Blackmail would be a particularly desperate resort, not becoming of an alpha - there is not too much danger of that.
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Re: Who here is an alpha male?

Postby tentative » Mon May 09, 2011 2:34 am

Silhouette says,
As for your threat of telling me to "fuck off" if I try to "alpha you", clicking your mouse and making me disappear, it's about how this is perceived by the group. You won't have usurped me or anything like that if you back off, right? It's not particularly dominant just because you have the "power" to do that. Anyone can back out of this thread, or continue to not participate, but none of this is challenging - that's up to you and them. It's not a reflection on me.

Ah, but is is a reflection on you and your ability to lead. If people simply refuse to participate in your thread, who do you plan to lead? :-k It's fine for you to be alpha in your own mind, but as you point out, "it's about how this is perceived by the group". No group, no alpha. Participants may not be alpha by your definition, but they control the venue - an alpha moment? :wink:
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Re: Who here is an alpha male?

Postby Silhouette » Mon May 09, 2011 3:15 am

tentative wrote:If people simply refuse to participate in your thread, who do you plan to lead? :-k It's fine for you to be alpha in your own mind, but as you point out, "it's about how this is perceived by the group". No group, no alpha.

Indeed! If my ability to lead was limited to keeping this thread going, and everybody refused to participate I would certainly be no alpha :D But that aside, I have certainly led my thread so far.

tentative wrote:Participants may not be alpha by your definition, but they control the venue - an alpha moment? :wink:

Who does control the venue of this forum?
With my observation in mind, that moderators are akin to nothing more than janitors by virtue of their moderation powers (to which they are by no means limited), it is not necessarily the moderators who run this place.

There are the old hands of the place, and the newercomers. There are the many who exhibit nothing special, and the few who do. Each is a point of respect, and where I may be no old hand (my earlier than usual start date and post count not truly representing when I really started contributing to this place) I am certainly one of the few creators here.

If this alone is enough to start this thread yet still receive so little contest, then who else who creates or has longer ties to this place is really here to stop me gaining more and more respect until it is clear I am on top?
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Re: Who here is an alpha male?

Postby WW_III_ANGRY » Mon May 09, 2011 3:24 am

The Alpha male concept here is really a product of desirable herd mentality traits by other followers. I see most alpha as hanging with weaker minded individuals simply to feed their own ego and dominate as well as to portray an image to the "suckers" whom are observing and biting on it. Silhouette touched on it nicely here, big the common image of an Alpha is just a reflection of societal norms, which of course on average, is simply an average standard :)
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Re: Who here is an alpha male?

Postby Silhouette » Mon May 09, 2011 3:59 am

WW_III_ANGRY wrote:The Alpha male concept here is really a product of desirable herd mentality traits by other followers. I see most alpha as hanging with weaker minded individuals simply to feed their own ego and dominate as well as to portray an image to the "suckers" whom are observing and biting on it.

I agree with this, the alpha traits requiring the context of followers and their herd mentality. An alpha must be accepted as part of his group of followers - though not in equal measure or there would be no hierarchy. A good King may be connected to his subjects by more fear than love, but all his subjects feel their herdlike connection to him along with a respectful gratefulness to his earned standing. (Those in power today carry no such connection nor respect, no?)

As for "hanging with weaker minded individuals", this is not the same as hanging with weak minded individuals. Many on this forum may not be flawless, but they are not weak minded. It takes a stronger mind to feed the ego of someone you are in discussion with, just as to accept such praise. Each of these links contain explicit approval for me in the past week alone. This pleases me and feeds my ego - is that so wrong of me?
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Re: Who here is an alpha male?

Postby AnitaS » Mon May 09, 2011 1:22 pm

We’re not a pack of wolves, and animal behavior is not universal in any case. Fighting for position within the herd, when the “herd” has reached the size that our societies have, will only take one so far before the ability to foster cooperation and collaboration becomes more valued than ego-feeding, self-promoting behaviors.

BTW, no true “alpha” would feel compelled to start or promote a thread flaunting his own alpha-ness; it would be self-evident, rendering PR unnecessary. The truly exceptional man feels no need or desire to convince others of his greatness. He simply doesn’t have to.

Explicitly pointing out your own alpha status is a self-negating endeavor.

Silhouette wrote:
Faust wrote:I'm with those who think the OP describes a douchebag.

And not an alpha male?

That would be correct, on both counts.

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Re: Who here is an alpha male?

Postby tentative » Mon May 09, 2011 3:19 pm

Anita,

You've missed a salient point: This is a John Wayne thread. No quiche eaters allowed! :wink:
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Re: Who here is an alpha male?

Postby Silhouette » Mon May 09, 2011 3:30 pm

Yes, we are not a pack of wolves. Though we can be seen to have things in common with a pack of wolves.

I am a firm believer in man as the measure of all things. Every behaviour we recognise in other animals is a reflection on ourselves. We perceive differences between the behaviours of animals, but only ever in light of the differences that our own physiological make-up is prone to valuing the perception of. You are correct again that animal behaviour is not universal in any case.

Societies of this size must foster cooperation, also yes, but the ranking of group members is not contrary to cooperation. It structures cooperation.

Ego-feeding, self-promoting, flaunting alpha-ness - do you really think an alpha does not flaunt his alphaness? An alpha is actively expressive, perpetually giving across the message that he is in charge.
Whilst there is PR for the purposes of bumping up an artifical sense of worth - through a need to be validated by others, there is also the explicit pointing out of one's own alpha status in celebration - through richness.
Humility, a kind of self-repression, is counter to the alpha's propensities. Whilst the alpha is clearly in charge without needing to convince anyone it does no harm to demonstrate his greatness. In fact, if an alpha did not periodically remind the lower ranks of his superiority, he would run into doubt - because in the case of an alpha it is a surplus of health that is indicated by ego-feeding, self-promoting behaviours.

Perhaps an alpha female does not experience this. In terms of this forum, I'm tempted to regard you as the most alpha of the females. Any comments?
Perhaps you are accustomed to only lesser men, whose self-flaunting is not flattering. In the vein of a guy showing off his beer-belly.

All the above aside, you miss the subtlty of the thread. It is intended to test if there is some kind of passion evident in philosophical types. But not only through outburst, but commanding outburst - indicative of a philosophical leader. Is there such thing as a philosophical leader?

So far there has only been fear of/aversion to the OP characteristics. If we cannot be proud in all things, what are we but lesser men? Nobody has yet overcome their vanity - fearing to be seen in a negative light - even if it is the one thing I have placed in the way of claiming supremacy. So how can there be any pride in anyone else here? Does nobody here really want supremacy? This is all very telling.
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Re: Who here is an alpha male?

Postby Blurry » Mon May 09, 2011 3:46 pm

Seriously, this pack of wolves comparison is starting to make me feel like I'm in a cheap remake of The Hangover.
"Nothing is original. Steal from anywhere that resonates with inspiration or fuels your imagination. Devour old films, new films, music, books, paintings, photographs, poems, dreams, random conversations, architecture, bridges, street signs, trees, clouds, bodies of water, light and shadows. Select only things to steal from that speak directly to your soul. If you do this, your work (and theft) will be authentic. Authenticity is invaluable; originality is non-existent. And don't bother concealing your thievery - celebrate it if you feel like it. In any case, always remember what Jean-Luc Godard said: 'It's not where you take things from - it's where you take them to.'" - Jim Jarmusch
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Re: Who here is an alpha male?

Postby Silhouette » Mon May 09, 2011 3:49 pm

Really? Before Anita it was mentioned once. And only off-handedly...
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Re: Who here is an alpha male?

Postby Blurry » Mon May 09, 2011 3:50 pm

I believe throughout the original version, it's only referenced once or twice. :roll:
"Nothing is original. Steal from anywhere that resonates with inspiration or fuels your imagination. Devour old films, new films, music, books, paintings, photographs, poems, dreams, random conversations, architecture, bridges, street signs, trees, clouds, bodies of water, light and shadows. Select only things to steal from that speak directly to your soul. If you do this, your work (and theft) will be authentic. Authenticity is invaluable; originality is non-existent. And don't bother concealing your thievery - celebrate it if you feel like it. In any case, always remember what Jean-Luc Godard said: 'It's not where you take things from - it's where you take them to.'" - Jim Jarmusch
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Re: Who here is an alpha male?

Postby Silhouette » Mon May 09, 2011 3:58 pm

You're right, that is far too much :P

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Re: Who here is an alpha male?

Postby tentative » Mon May 09, 2011 3:59 pm

Sihouette,

I fed into your definition of what is alpha, but quite frankly, the definition is limited to that which is public display. A true alpha is invisible. They may be known but exercise their leadership in more subtle ways. The sage or wise person does not claim attention, and therefore is given attention. The true alpha seeks obscurity and therefore receives aclaim. This isn't to suggest that we don't recognize and even need the John Wayne alpha hero from time to time, but as Anita pointed out, The true alpha is the person comfortable with themselves and has no need for display. A real alpha leads from the rear of the herd. But that person rarely makes it on "60 Minutes".
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Re: Who here is an alpha male?

Postby statiktech » Mon May 09, 2011 4:44 pm

Silhouette wrote:Trustworthy of what? You'll have to explain what you mean by this. You want to tell them all your secrets or something? It's a predictable role, the alpha. What more do you need for trust than predictability?


Trustworthy as in worthy of trust [not just capable of being trusted - you can trust anything you'd like]. Trust is a reliance more than an expectation. So, yes, trust is more than predictability -- there is also a loyalty involved. You can trust a liar and get the truth every now and again, but he is still predictably dishonest. Could you trust your "alpha"? Sure. What I'm asking is whether such a person deserves to be trusted.

And obviously my opinion is that he cannot and should not.

There is nothing necessarily emotionally detached in the OP characteristics. They might not be emotionally sympathetic with certain people who they're not particularly caring about, but that doesn't mean they're not emotionally engaged at all. It takes plenty of emotion to be an alpha, but there's a difference between being selectively emotional and being indiscriminately sympathetic - and it's not that the former is emotionally detached.


Emotionally detached, not emotionally vacant altogether. In other words, emotionally detached from others [or 'reality'].

Are you saying that all the alphas of all those species out there are dangerous to those they lead? Not caring doesn't mean those who are uncared for by the leader are worse off.


No, I'm saying your definition of "alpha" is askew.

Are you implying that care is the best and only way to be better off? A group being protected by an uncaring leader isn't necessarily a contradiction. Somebody's own means might intentionally or unintentionally serve your own - but who cares about intention when all you are looking for is that your interests be served?


Exactly. Then you agree, your "alpha" is an actor who may, inadvertently, work for the good of the group. All in all he is a selfish douche, though. And, yes, I'd contend that compassion would be an improvement.

And on the other other hand, the act can become what is most sexually appealing as well as what is most powerful. There is nothing that necessitates that an alpha must be genuine and completely open. Some masks are more appropriate than others, and who said the strong cannot wear masks out of richness? Acts aren't only for the weak and needy.


Nobody. The strong do wear masks. And half the time their apparent strength is part of that mask. Nobody said anything about completely open, but I believe a real "alpha" is genuine insofar as he becomes the alpha without request or appeal.

Perhaps this is what you mean by trustworthy. Nothing forces the alpha to be completely genuine and open, preventing you from emotionally engaging with him - though he may choose to let you.


Though, even if he did let you, you'd never know if it was genuine.

This is a cause for some to not want to trust him, not that he can not be trusted. Others may prefer to trust a man with many masks - they keep things in as well as keeping things out. Blackmail would be a particularly desperate resort, not becoming of an alpha - there is not too much danger of that.
[/quote]

And some people preferred to trust Charles Manson. He seems like a pretty good example of your "alpha".
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Re: Who here is an alpha male?

Postby AnitaS » Mon May 09, 2011 11:30 pm

tentative wrote:Anita,

You've missed a salient point: This is a John Wayne thread.
JT, seems I’ve missed both the salient and the subtle. Completely hopeless. #-o


Silhouette wrote:...there is also the explicit pointing out of one's own alpha status in celebration - through richness.

Humility, a kind of self-repression, is counter to the alpha's propensities.
Sil, we clearly have different notions on what we consider an “alpha male.” As I alluded, the alpha as I see it has no need to “celebrate” his status – he is what he is, does what he does, without needing to prove himself to anyone but himself. He holds himself to higher standards of integrity not to impress others, but to be true to himself.

That is neither humility nor self-repression – it is self-assuredness, freedom from the need for external validation.

Perhaps you are accustomed to only lesser men, whose self-flaunting is not flattering.
As I see it, flaunting oneself is never flattering, if you’ve truly “got it,” there’s no need to flaunt it – it’s already out there, plain as day, for people to see. It's only when one is worried that it's not apparent that boasting is employed. The need to flaunt stems from insecurity – which I think we’d agree is NOT exactly an alpha trait.

The person you describe sounds more like a needy adolescent than a man to me. His false bravado may fool his immature peers, but as this thread demonstrates, he likely wouldn’t capture the interest of many adults. Being self-absorbed is not an especially charismatic quality.

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Re: Who here is an alpha male?

Postby Silhouette » Tue May 10, 2011 2:37 am

AnitaS wrote:Sil, we clearly have different notions on what we consider an “alpha male.”

Shall we battle it out to see who is more correct? No, that would certainly be adolescent.

If there is nothing adolescent, young and healthy in an alpha male, I would see little appeal in him. There is much that is charming in an old adult man, but does his tired moderated fatigue inspire leadership? Perhaps if physical health is cut out of the equation - which it pretty much is today. I understand the appeal of the mature humble male.

Your idea of the alpha male has much in common with the respectful old hand, tentative:

tentative wrote:I fed into your definition of what is alpha, but quite frankly, the definition is limited to that which is public display. A true alpha is invisible. They may be known but exercise their leadership in more subtle ways. The sage or wise person does not claim attention, and therefore is given attention. The true alpha seeks obscurity and therefore receives aclaim. This isn't to suggest that we don't recognize and even need the John Wayne alpha hero from time to time, but as Anita pointed out, The true alpha is the person comfortable with themselves and has no need for display. A real alpha leads from the rear of the herd. But that person rarely makes it on "60 Minutes".

The true alpha is one who shrinks into obscurity? - or perhaps they only seek this only to find themselves unsuccessful? Each seems somewhat opposed to the largeness of the alpha and his capability.
Are we to leave it at "the alpha uses his strength toward the ends of not needing to use it"?
This would ultimately lead to the alpha having nothing but potential strength - nothing material, only unproved, unreal, unasserted.

The sage or wise person is explicitly non-alpha. You describe a recluse who is content with themselves. This clearly inspires respect, but it does not inspire following. It does not inspire togetherness in a social context. There is no group for the hermit to lead.

A John Wayne is charming, but fleeting. His highlight is in his brief individual heroism, not his prolonged social role. Western film is pretty terribly limited to the individual in a crisis situation, followed by the triumph of good over evil. This is intensely trivial...

statiktech wrote:Trustworthy as in worthy of trust [not just capable of being trusted - you can trust anything you'd like]. Trust is a reliance more than an expectation. So, yes, trust is more than predictability -- there is also a loyalty involved. You can trust a liar and get the truth every now and again, but he is still predictably dishonest. Could you trust your "alpha"? Sure. What I'm asking is whether such a person deserves to be trusted.

And obviously my opinion is that he cannot and should not.

A liar consistently does not tell the truth. You can trust him to do that. An alpha will consistently lead you best through adversity, and in the meantime provide you with strong character. You can trust him to do that.

If this does not inspire loyalty, if you cannot rely on him to do this, then by all means challenge him and cause him to fuck off, or depart yourself on your lonesome. What different kind of loyalty and reliance do you need?

statiktech wrote:Emotionally detached, not emotionally vacant altogether. In other words, emotionally detached from others [or 'reality'].

Reality is others and their surroundings. Let's say an alpha is emotionally detached from others (but not their surroundings). They are going to have a speciality in knowledge of surroundings. But they are not emotionally detached from others in the sense that they have emotional connection with others. It's just not warmth, pity and affection etc. A cold emotional attachment is an attachment all the same. It's just in the favour of one who does not desire warmth when warmth is unwantedly requested from the lower ranked individual.

statiktech wrote:Exactly. Then you agree, your "alpha" is an actor who may, inadvertently, work for the good of the group. All in all he is a selfish douche, though. And, yes, I'd contend that compassion would be an improvement.

Would you call someone who saved ur ass, through being "selfish", a douche? "You douche, you just made a decision that benefitted us all loads. How dare you not have compassion while you did this".

statiktech wrote:And some people preferred to trust Charles Manson. He seems like a pretty good example of your "alpha".

Yeah, he is.
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