## Existence and Nonexistence

Half-formed posts, inchoate philosophies, and the germs of deep thought.

Moderator: Only_Humean

### Existence and Nonexistence

What is the difference in their effect?
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend

Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

### Re: Existence and Nonexistence

On what?
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.
Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

What exactly is logic? -Magnus Anderson

Support the innocence project on AmazonSmile instead of Turd's African savior biker dude.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/

Mr Reasonable
resident contrarian

Posts: 25350
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:54 am
Location: pimping a hole straight through the stratosphere itself

### Re: Existence and Nonexistence

Smears wrote:On what?

On whatever matters. - You?
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend

Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

### Re: Existence and Nonexistence

Oh. There is no effect.
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.
Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

What exactly is logic? -Magnus Anderson

Support the innocence project on AmazonSmile instead of Turd's African savior biker dude.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/

Mr Reasonable
resident contrarian

Posts: 25350
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:54 am
Location: pimping a hole straight through the stratosphere itself

### Re: Existence and Nonexistence

'Existence' is not a predicate.

The dog is black. The dog is white. The dog has four legs. The dog has three legs.

All of these are predicates of the subject 'the dog' because they change your concept of the dog. If one says 'the dog exists', nothing about your concept of the dog changes. The subject remains the same. To say something 'exists' is merely to say that you observe it in the world.
Ben7735

Posts: 22
Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 5:34 am
Location: Annapolis, Maryland

### Re: Existence and Nonexistence

Smears wrote:Oh. There is no effect.

I presume you mean that with non-existence there "is no effect".

So, that being the case, what must be the essence of existence?
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend

Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

### Re: Existence and Nonexistence

No I meant both. Why on earth would you presume that?
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.
Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

What exactly is logic? -Magnus Anderson

Support the innocence project on AmazonSmile instead of Turd's African savior biker dude.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/

Mr Reasonable
resident contrarian

Posts: 25350
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:54 am
Location: pimping a hole straight through the stratosphere itself

### Re: Existence and Nonexistence

Ben7735 wrote:'Existence' is not a predicate.

The dog is black. The dog is white. The dog has four legs. The dog has three legs.

All of these are predicates of the subject 'the dog' because they change your concept of the dog. If one says 'the dog exists', nothing about your concept of the dog changes. The subject remains the same. To say something 'exists' is merely to say that you observe it in the world.

It likely also involves some delusional imputations though. When we say something "exists" we tend to make too much of its independence from its context. Sometimes we go so far as to assert that it exists metaphysically - i.e. that it is permanent, truly independent, etc. So some people talk about "nonexistence" in order to refute these ideas. And some people feel that, experientially, there is a dreamlike quality to existence. So that may have something to do with the use of the word "nonexistence".
"Distraction is the only thing that consoles us for our miseries, and yet it is itself the greatest of our miseries." - Blaise Pascal

- Edward Yang

"To a fly that likes the smell of putrid / Meat the fragrance of sandalwood is foul. / Beings who discard Nirvana / Covet coarse Samsara's realm." - Saraha

anon
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The non-existence of $400,000 in my pocket makes me very sad, whereas its existence would make me very happy. -anthem Anthem Philosopher Posts: 2257 Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2007 1:04 pm Location: Undisclosed ### Re: Existence and Nonexistence James S Saint wrote:What is the difference in their effect? Well nonexistence can't affect because it doesn't exist. But what if you took to situations where everything was the same in both but one thing was missing in one. The end result would be different. So do you say its missingness/non-existnce had an effect “with” the other existing things or is it simply that, that "combination" of things leads to “that result”. The thing missing had nothing to do with it. We only assume it did because we compare situations and because by eliminating certain factors we can effect the end result. But the non-exiting missing thing had nothing to do with the end result. It did not "cause" it. It's rather that the "sum total"(combination) of factors was different in each case and thus lead to different results. If you assume the missing thing was part of the cause then you'd have to assume a whole lot of other missing things were part of the cause as it had that affect rather then a hundred other ones. You assume. There isn’t’ it caused that situation "rather" then another. That would be assuming that other situation somehow exists for it to be part of the whole result. To say the missing factor "could" rather cause that situation rather then the other. And also what about all the nonsensical factors that don’t ever exist. Do they somehow cause “less” then the missing factors simply because they "never" exist. But the point is not that the missing factors never exist (in any situation) when speaking in relation to the effect but that they don’t exist in "that" situation thus they had no relevance to that effect. Did not cause it as they were not in that situation. Samurai Jack Pieinsky Posts: 64 Joined: Sat May 20, 2006 12:22 pm Location: Ireland ### Re: Existence and Nonexistence Anthem wrote:The non-existence of$400,000 in my pocket makes me very sad, whereas its existence would make me very happy.

There would definitely be a dreamlike aspect to the existence of \$400,000 in my pocket!
"Distraction is the only thing that consoles us for our miseries, and yet it is itself the greatest of our miseries." - Blaise Pascal

- Edward Yang

"To a fly that likes the smell of putrid / Meat the fragrance of sandalwood is foul. / Beings who discard Nirvana / Covet coarse Samsara's realm." - Saraha

anon
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Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2007 7:59 pm
Location: In the meantime.

### Re: Existence and Nonexistence

James S Saint wrote:What is the difference in their effect?

That might just depend on the individual.
For some who exist, there is not much evolution or movement.

The difference between existence and non-existence is within movement.
Existence gives rise to consciousness flow.
Non-existence remains in stagnation at a standstill.
Joseph Joubert ~~

It is better to debate a question without settling it than to settle a question without debating it.

The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory but progress.

“We love repose of mind so well, that we are arrested by anything which has even the appearance of truth; and so we fall asleep on clouds.”

You have to be like the pebble in the stream, keeping the grain and rolling along without being dissolved or dissolving anything else.

Arcturus Descending
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Location: A state of unknowing

### Re: Existence and Nonexistence

My guess: disbursement widens the range of the effect as it vanishes or as it is reprocessed as part of some other existence.

Is non-existence actually the case or is it more like pre-existence before the recycle? When energy congregates and an event of movement causes manifestation of a form or pattern...scratch that...is everything or anything possible? I'm confusing myself it seems.

Yes, I'm really confused for all of the sudden I don't believe in non-existence.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.

WendyDarling
Heroine

Posts: 7014
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:52 am

### Re: Existence and Nonexistence

WendyDarling wrote: I don't believe in non-existence.

There is no such thing as nonexistence.

Newton noted that if there is no influence affecting an object in motion, the object remains in motion. That "Law of Motion" was actually an ontological declaration, as were many "laws" of physics. We decide to think in terms of what has affect. And if there is no affecting going on, we declare that "no-thing" is there. It is an issue of epistemology in forming a rational ontology (a rational way to think of reality).

The most fundamental truth is that the total sum influence/affect that a thing has is what a thing is. You and every "thing" is merely a bundle of influence. Parts of "you" influence other parts of you and thus are established as "parts". The total of you influences whatever is surrounding you. Without any influence occurring, there is no you. You would not exist.

It is a breach in ontology to suggest that the lack of a thing caused an effect. The lack of a thing, by definition is the lack of its affect or influence. It can be said that because there was not a particular thing present to have affect, the other things maintained their affect without interference. When there is no influence affecting an object in motion, the object remains in motion.

If that rubs you wrong ... argue it with Newton.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend

Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

### Re: Existence and Nonexistence

What could ever stop energy from being in motion?

Our perceptions of what constitutes energy and its movements are not necessarily accurate or whole, so how is there a no thing if everything in existence is energy moving? To us, there may seem to be no affect.

[In the mood to ramble: I should include the past, present, and future all at once occurs elsewhere (I mean time seems to stop here in the Earth realm) for there is no change elsewhere other than in one's very conscious memories being replayed, the memories housed in your soul, your seat of consciousness. One's memories are the currency of time in other dimensions, but there is nothing to measure thoughts against so far as I can tell there, one only knows that through thoughts time passed in the having of them, but to what degree/amount/length(not sure which word qualifies as precise)...who knows.]
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.

WendyDarling
Heroine

Posts: 7014
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:52 am

### Re: Existence and Nonexistence

Without any influence occurring, there is no you. You would not exist.

Influence changes forms but when one form of influence seems to vanish, you do not vanish. Non-existence is a fantasy. No one and no thing ceases to exist so why the question?

Why our memories are erased may be a godsend to keep us as sane as possible throughout infinity.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.

WendyDarling
Heroine

Posts: 7014
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:52 am

### Re: Existence and Nonexistence

WendyDarling wrote:What could ever stop energy from being in motion?

Our perceptions of what constitutes energy and its movements are not necessarily accurate or whole, so how is there a no thing if everything in existence is energy moving? To us, there may seem to be no affect.

Backup a little. Energy is not a "thing", despite modern implications. Energy is an ability, like a skill or intelligence are abilities. Energy can change and on infinitesimal levels always does. The potential or ability gets changed as actual minuscule things change position. An apple on a lower branch of a tree has a different energy potential than the exact same mass of apple on a higher branch of the same tree. As the tree grows or sways, their energy changes. Energy is a matter of situation, where things are relative to each other. And if things do not move from where they are and do not change what they are, the energy involved would not change either. But then on a ultra minuscule scale literally all things are always changing and moving position.

WendyDarling wrote:[In the mood to ramble: I should include the past, present, and future all at once occurs elsewhere (I mean time seems to stop here in the Earth realm) for there is no change elsewhere other than in one's very conscious memories being replayed, the memories housed in your soul, your seat of consciousness. One's memories are the currency of time in other dimensions, but there is nothing to measure thoughts against so far as I can tell there, one only knows that through thoughts time passed in the having of them, but to what degree/amount/length(not sure which word qualifies as precise)...who knows.]

By definition, neither past nor future exists. Only the consequences of the past and thoughts of the future exist. The past leaves consequences in the physical called "state of motion" and in the mind called "memories". The future is but a concept, with no physical reality at all.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend

Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

### Re: Existence and Nonexistence

But then on a ultra minuscule scale literally all things are always changing and moving position.

Space movement, planetary orbits, Earth's rotation is considered ultra minuscule?

Why is energy not a thing in density/concentration, power/force, longevity, constant speed? The combination of yet unidentified types of energy do not make up matter?

If no future, then how have I dreamed of the future? Did I manifest it's eventuality with my will? I willed you, matter, and tomorrow's events. Your will aided me, but I did the lion's share of making energy potent enough to create patterns/forms.

I'm going to call my ability...dimensional reflections. I have officially become the Big Sky Mama. Yes, I must razz you, JSS.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.

WendyDarling
Heroine

Posts: 7014
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:52 am

### Re: Existence and Nonexistence

WendyDarling wrote:
But then on a ultra minuscule scale literally all things are always changing and moving position.

Space movement, planetary orbits, Earth's rotation is considered ultra minuscule?

..sigh .. The presence of one (microscopic) does not negate the presence of the other (macroscopic).

WendyDarling wrote:Why is energy not a thing in density/concentration, power/force, longevity, constant speed?

Energy is a state, specifically of potential ("to do work"). The energy within a mass particle is not doing work, but capable of being freed to do work. The substance of the universe, Affectance, is the ultra-minuscule changing of that potential, even within the particle. All physicality is formed of Affectance. Energy is the consequential state (aka "PtA", Potential-to-Affect).

WendyDarling wrote:The combination of yet unidentified types of energy do not make up matter?

They are not "unidentified". They are ultra minuscule EMR pulses and waves, "Affectance". The EMR is released when diverted from its natural aggregation (subatomic annihilation).

WendyDarling wrote:If no future, then how have I dreamed of the future? Did I manifest it's eventuality with my will? I willed you, matter, and tomorrow's events. Your will aided me, but I did the lion's share of making energy potent enough to create patterns/forms.

A prediction of what the present will someday become, is not in itself, the "future". The future is the present that has not yet formed.

WendyDarling wrote:I'm going to call my ability...dimensional reflections. I have officially become the Big Sky Mama. Yes, I must razz you, JSS.

It is your ability to "predict" or "sense" the present that has not yet come to exist.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend

Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

### Re: Existence and Nonexistence

They are not "unidentified". They are ultra minuscule EMR pulses and waves, "Affectance". The EMR is released when diverted from its natural aggregation (subatomic annihilation).

That not "unidentified" is bologna and you are only considering what is so far recognized in this dimension which isn't what's important. If you can identify the location of your soul in your human anatomy and identify what that body consists of, I'll print off my words and eat them. My printer is on.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.

WendyDarling
Heroine

Posts: 7014
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:52 am

### Re: Existence and Nonexistence

James

Let me see if I have this right - because this would appear to be an important piece of missing information to me.

James S Saint wrote:Energy is the consequential state (aka "PtA", Potential-to-Affect).

Consequential indicates following as a result or effect. So you are therefore saying that the PtA has to be built up first before it can affect.

Well that makes sense to me.

With GOD being the cause then it becomes a domino effect of sorts.
Neosophi | HOME | FORUM

Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony
(James S Saint)

It’s not that truth itself is being eroded per se, it’s that fragmental falsification appears to be increasing.
(Anomaly654)

Mind is an ever changing dimension that is bound to reality, logic and emotion.
(Myself)

encode_decode
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### Re: Existence and Nonexistence

So you are therefore saying that the PtA has to be built up first before it can affect.

Simply existing, it has built up PtA...God power.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.

WendyDarling
Heroine

Posts: 7014
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:52 am

### Re: Existence and Nonexistence

WendyDarling

WendyDarling wrote:
So you are therefore saying that the PtA has to be built up first before it can affect.

Simply existing, it has built up PtA...God power.

Hmm . . . I guess that is one way of putting it.

I think this is bound to:

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".

Here is my drastically simplified example just to get things rolling:

We have two variables: A & B

B is the initial state of PtA and is Zero

A contains, well, lets say two - it whacks B with two.

B now contains a PtA of two as a consequence of being whacked by A

This example is a domino effect - an illusion - because - "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is". B would have to whack A back.

RM:AO accounts for the illusion I have created here - B goes on to affect C because it has PtA that was given to it from A as a consequence of being whacked.
Neosophi | HOME | FORUM

Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony
(James S Saint)

It’s not that truth itself is being eroded per se, it’s that fragmental falsification appears to be increasing.
(Anomaly654)

Mind is an ever changing dimension that is bound to reality, logic and emotion.
(Myself)

encode_decode
Philosopher

Posts: 1180
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:07 pm

### Re: Existence and Nonexistence

encode_decode wrote:
WendyDarling

WendyDarling wrote:
So you are therefore saying that the PtA has to be built up first before it can affect.

Simply existing, it has built up PtA...God power.

Hmm . . . I guess that is one way of putting it.

I think this is bound to:

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".

Here is my drastically simplified example just to get things rolling:

We have two variables: A & B

B is the initial state of PtA and is Zero

A contains, well, lets say two - it whacks B with two.

B now contains a PtA of two as a consequence of being whacked by A

This example is a domino effect - an illusion - because - "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is". B would have to whack A back.

RM:AO accounts for the illusion I have created here - B goes on to affect C because it has PtA that was given to it from A as a consequence of being whacked.

If you combined what I mentioned as PtA existence, then added the PtA domino effect, wouldn't that be a double layered eventuality accounting for unforeseen affects, what some call random or chaotic results?
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.

WendyDarling
Heroine

Posts: 7014
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:52 am

### Re: Existence and Nonexistence

WendyDarling wrote:If you combined what I mentioned as PtA existence, then added the PtA domino effect, wouldn't that be a double layered eventuality accounting for unforeseen affects, what some call random or chaotic results?

Are you trying to break my brain?

Seriously though . . . I am currently working on a logic example:

The double layer in my example is in metaspace - so it is not a part of our space. There is only one active layer in our space. Random ? . . Wendy, I am still thinking about how to answer a question you once asked me about that . . . I don't like the idea of random - let us just say that.

My brain hurts . . .

Neosophi | HOME | FORUM

Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony
(James S Saint)

It’s not that truth itself is being eroded per se, it’s that fragmental falsification appears to be increasing.
(Anomaly654)

Mind is an ever changing dimension that is bound to reality, logic and emotion.
(Myself)

encode_decode
Philosopher

Posts: 1180
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:07 pm

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