Nietzsche Beyond Good And Evil. Just a few questions.

jeremyt7 · August 9, 2007, 4:06am

I got a few questions on philosophy. The Book “Beyond Good And Evil” By Friedrich Nietzsche.

What did Nietzsche really mean when he said “God Is Dead?”
Given that meaning, is there a case to be made that Nietzsche was right?
Describe and evaluate Netzsche’s criticism of Christian values, as well as his propsed alternative. Is nietzsche consistent and does it matter?

Wobbly · August 9, 2007, 4:45am

Hall of questions/Hall of homework?

Evolution and scientific advancement destroyed the need for a god to explain away the complexity of the world.

jeremyt7 · August 9, 2007, 4:52am

ok. thanks for the help. im VERY new to this board. appreciated. you can delete this post if you’d like to.

AlternateParallelRea · August 9, 2007, 5:06am

I wouldn’t be so bold as to try and encapsulate all of Nietzsche’s sentiments about religion, but in Beyond Good and Evil he touches on a couple of points that would explain his view of Christian Values.

First, he thought it was just re-contextualised Plato. The idea that there is another world, that this is an imperfect demo copy and that we don’t have to take this life seriously is, to Nietzsche, a logical and moral mistake. He saw no reason to assume that this life will be replaced (he’s more likely to assume it will be repeated) and he thought not treating our lives like the one epic journey we have is lazy and immoral.

Second, he thought that the whole foundation of the values system was laziness. He thought they treated vices like virtues and weakness like strength because it was easier than standing up and being good and strong.

An example. I’m no gardener. I hate it. It shows. I often think “wouldn’t it be nice if I could just call the plants “weeds” and name the weeds “plants” - then my work would be done and my garden would be naturally superior”

Nietzsche said the Christians did this by elevating poverty and weakness. The meek shall inherit the world, rich men don’t go to heaven, etc.

Nietzsche had nothing specific against god. He just thought the values system was a cop-out alternative to working out and being successful.

Raven_s_Moon · August 9, 2007, 5:22am

AlternateParallelReality:

I wouldn’t be so bold as to try and encapsulate all of Nietzsche’s sentiments about religion, but in Beyond Good and Evil he touches on a couple of points that would explain his view of Christian Values.

First, he thought it was just re-contextualised Plato. The idea that there is another world, that this is an imperfect demo copy and that we don’t have to take this life seriously is, to Nietzsche, a logical and moral mistake. He saw no reason to assume that this life will be replaced (he’s more likely to assume it will be repeated) and he thought not treating our lives like the one epic journey we have is lazy and immoral.

Second, he thought that the whole foundation of the values system was laziness. He thought they treated vices like virtues and weakness like strength because it was easier than standing up and being good and strong.

An example. I’m no gardener. I hate it. It shows. I often think “wouldn’t it be nice if I could just call the plants “weeds” and name the weeds “plants” - then my work would be done and my garden would be naturally superior”

Nietzsche said the Christians did this by elevating poverty and weakness. The meek shall inherit the world, rich men don’t go to heaven, etc.

Nietzsche had nothing specific against god. He just thought the values system was a cop-out alternative to working out and being successful.

raven stretches out arms and cracks knuckles.

Weeds you call them weeds because someone told you they were or you read it. What differs a weed from a plant? A definition?

The meek shall inherit the earth… does it say the poor? It says meek. Those that speak the truth and walk with honesty.
So why does it have to pertain to the 'heaven"? How would a rich man…one who thinks of nothing but making money each day, no matter how he gets it, enjoy the wonders of earth?

Those that respect it and nourish it; inherit it not only for themselves but the future generations. The rich man only inherits his money.

A cop out? How easy it would be to ignore all the world around oneself and focus only on themselves.

TertiaryMindset · August 9, 2007, 6:55am

Jesus made the dejected and the oppressed feel justified and their opulent and indulgent oppressers look unjustified.

After all Jesus had to pull a crowd, and what better way than to say to the people ‘‘Poor and oppressed people of Israel, you are justified in you poverty, meekness, weekness, and hunger for these are virtues truly loved by God, and the guys in the roman barracks are opulent and indulgent of vices, they are unjustified by God in their actions’’. Jesus said it more eloquently but it’s what he said.

You see, Nietzsche took it as the creed of christianity, it isn’t it’s just what jesus said to get a full house at the sermon on the mount.

Besides, Nietzsche is an idiot in most cases.

Aaahhhhhhhhh…

This is the Nietzsche brigade typing, TM is dead, let this be a message to those who do not follow the way of the Lord(Nietzsche, in case you were wondering). Zieg Heil!!!

krossie · August 9, 2007, 11:38am

I think that madman in the market passage is Nietzsche in absolute tip top form!

The revelation is not that God is Dead (many in the C19th had stumbled to that conclusion!) but what does it mean to say God is Dead - what or who can kind of fill out the God shaped hole?
The onlookers supply the characters of Luke warm atheists â€“ business-like people who get on with their day to day lives for whom the concept of God has no interest as it has no day to day use in the "adding of the half pence to the pence" (to quote Yeats).

But the madman’s problem is that he is a “believer” in the sense that he can see that “God” was the glue holding everything together including the everyday business world of the market place. (The scene is so well situated!)

He realises that there are massive consequences in a three-word sentence like that.

He sees a whole world loosing its underpinning, its sense of values even the shape of what can be thought or not thought (look at the central role of an all powerful God to keep Descartes or Spinoza’s systems together)

So though he (N â€“ Dawg that is) hates Christianity and religion he realises also that we who can’t even assess the profound consequences of its loss are certainly in no position to replace it!

Hence the last wee coda where he is almost haunting the churches (tombs) like clinging to the body of dead lover…

(Now if you’re really, really lucky Sauwelious might do yer home work for you a lot better than I can!!)

And here it is!

THE MADMAN----Have you not heard of that madman who lit a lantern in the bright morning hours, ran to the market place, and cried incessantly: “I seek God! I seek God!”—As many of those who did not believe in God were standing around just then, he provoked much laughter. Has he got lost? asked one. Did he lose his way like a child? asked another. Or is he hiding? Is he afraid of us? Has he gone on a voyage? emigrated?—Thus they yelled and laughed

The madman jumped into their midst and pierced them with his eyes. “Whither is God?” he cried; "I will tell you. We have killed him—you and I. All of us are his murderers. But how did we do this? How could we drink up the sea? Who gave us the sponge to wipe away the entire horizon? What were we doing when we unchained this earth from its sun? Whither is it moving now? Whither are we moving? Away from all suns? Are we not plunging continually? Backward, sideward, forward, in all directions? Is there still any up or down? Are we not straying, as through an infinite nothing? Do we not feel the breath of empty space? Has it not become colder? Is not night continually closing in on us? Do we not need to light lanterns in the morning? Do we hear nothing as yet of the noise of the gravediggers who are burying God? Do we smell nothing as yet of the divine decomposition? Gods, too, decompose. God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him.

“How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we ourselves not become gods simply to appear worthy of it? There has never been a greater deed; and whoever is born after us—for the sake of this deed he will belong to a higher history than all history hitherto.”

Here the madman fell silent and looked again at his listeners; and they, too, were silent and stared at him in astonishment. At last he threw his lantern on the ground, and it broke into pieces and went out. “I have come too early,” he said then; "my time is not yet. This tremendous event is still on its way, still wandering; it has not yet reached the ears of men. Lightning and thunder require time; the light of the stars requires time; deeds, though done, still require time to be seen and heard. This deed is still more distant from them than most distant stars—and yet they have done it themselves.

It has been related further that on the same day the madman forced his way into several churches and there struck up his requiem aeternam deo. Led out and called to account, he is said always to have replied nothing but: “What after all are these churches now if they are not the tombs and sepulchers of God?”

Source: Friedrich Nietzsche, The Gay Science (1882, 1887) para. 125; Walter Kaufmann ed. (New York: Vintage, 1974), pp.181-82.]

(fordham.edu/halsall/mod/niet … adman.html)

AlternateParallelRea · August 10, 2007, 12:56am

Exactly. This is the same logic.

OK, metaphors are being mixed here. The meek shall inherit the earth. Rich men getting into heaven after camels pass through the eyes of needles. I know this… if you’re suggesting I’ve confused the two, I’d suggest you’ve misread me.

Bear in mind, I’m just explaining the philosopher’s stance to someone who asked. This is not my attempt as an argument with people who are clearly getting very defensive about their own beliefs - If I felt like having that argument, your “rebuttal” would look very different.

Stop defending - I’'m not attacking you.

Whatever that means… it’s not a luxury most of have. Maybe you resent Nietzsche for doing that, in which case I’d say take it up with him. Just make sure that there aren’t too many christians doing exactly the same thing. It would be terrible to be casting stones from a glass cubicle.

I’m not defending Nietzsche in this thread, and you’d want to make sure I agreed with everything he said before you started arguing with me as though I was. I’m just explaining his text… though I do have to say he makes some points I’m pretty sympathetic to. There’s some merit in his observations, though they won’t be noticed by anyone who’s too busy being defensive about beliefs they think are exempt from investigation.

Impious · August 10, 2007, 2:06am

The death of God can mean a few things. It can mean the loss of belief in God or it can mean a cessation of those experiences that people call God. Simply removing the word ‘God’ from one’s language causes a little death.