alpha chicks and beta chicks

So, I am an American Christian traditionalist who holds onto the Republican party and was beaten by my father who was a racist and I hold the beliefs I do because the environment around me forced them unto me and I never rebelled.

In reality I am not American, not Christian, not traditionalist, don’t care about the Republican party, my father never beat me and he’s not a racist, the environment tried to force liberalism/cuckservatism on me (mostly liberalism) and I ended up rejecting them both in favor of my own beliefs. Pretty sure this makes me a rebel and yes, an outsider.

Zero points for you, gib. You’re as wrong about my personal stuff as you are about everything else.

Pandora, the entire concept of alpha doesn’t make much sense when it comes to human females. “Alpha” has the connotations of dominance, and though some human females can be kind of dominant, the male alphas - the top 10% or so of men are easily more dominant than any female.

And yes, the quality of one’s partner is typically reflective of one’s own quality, which is why alphaness (representing reproductive success) is closely connected with the quality of the partner one reproduces with. This applies to both males and females.

Really? Looks can be very deceiving, gib. You might change your mind if you saw this woman in action having to defend or save her child from a predator.

Aside from that, you would have absolutely no idea who she is as a person. Could be a philosopher, doctor, lawyer, future astronaut lol or some other being who you definitely would not be bored with.

You have children. I’m rather surprised that you would not find this image beautiful and appealing.

Unfortunately, perception would seem to be everything, wouldn’t it? Transcend it, gibster.

theguardian.com/world/2003/sep/22/gender.uk

It’s a combination of pride in my own thread (they’re shitting all over it) and an insatiable urge to troll (they make it so easy). It’s an addictive combination.

Take this for example:

This is just begging to be trolled. He’s basically saying he doesn’t need science. He just knows.

There’s also the fact that here at ILP, I like to get to know people. Until I dig my heals into a conversation with someone, that person’s just a face among the crowd–almost indistinguishable from everyone else. But once I dig in–whether that’s a friendly conversation or a real nasty one involving insults and trolling–that person is all of a sudden unique in my mind–they stand out with all their quirks and idiosyncrasies. ← That’s something I like about people, even the despicable ones. I had no encounters with AutSider before this, now I have, now I know him a bit better.

I have no idea what this person is like in real life. The picture was brought in to symbolize something–the traditional baby-making wife and mother. AutSider and Magnus see a woman who is not a philosopher, doctor, lawyer, astronaut, and who definitely needs a big strong man to protect her and her children. ← That’s what I’m responding to.

And the difference between these types of women has very little to do with being a mother, at least for me. That’s something AutSider and Magnus are bringing in. They’re trying to contrast the girl in the image with the images I posted in the OP of goth rock chicks. I’m saying I’m attracted to the latter (tough on the outside, mushy on the inside). AutSider and Magnus are the ones who are contrasting them with the traditional mother, suggesting that if a woman chooses a career as a goth rock star, she can’t possibly bear children, or if she does she’d be a terrible mother. I see no reason to believe this. I don’t see why the goth chicks in the OP (those ones in particular since I detect a sweet, mushy, almost mother-like quality to them on the inside) can’t also be loving mothers at the same time. I’m barfing at the idea of the traditional female roll of wife and mother… nothing more than that, nothing exciting, nothing interesting, just dull.

Imagine if we had to conduct a study for every single decision we had to make in our lives. We would get nowhere.

You are simply unwilling to entertain the possibility that some people simply have confidence in their knowledge, grounded in the accumulated experiences of their forefathers, and thus little need to conduct studies in order to justify themselves to people like you.

You are a typical perfectionist who expects people to be either extremely rigorous or to give up on their opinions.

You accept nothing in between. Only absolutes. Either perfect ignorance or perfect knowledge.

This is how levelling is done. Since nobody can meet the extremely high level of standard you’ve set, everyone is forced to admit ignorance and by extension equality.

Either you’re a God or you’re one of us. Nothing in between is permitted.

You’re strong on words but extremely weak in actual thoughts.
Keep pretending you’re more than just a faglet.

You doing philosophy? Or preaching ideals?

What would be in between linking us to a study and talking out of your ass?

This is essentially what I was saying. For a male to call a female alpha is like saying “She’s alpha because I say so” - it’s relative and dependent judgment. This was my comment to your photo. Now, I don’t know the quality of the father of her child in relation to her, but I can say that in relation to her child(ren), she is certainly a true alpha female. The female might not have power over the males, but she certainly has power over the young, hers and sometimes others’. I know that in certain rodent species (meerkats, ground squirrels, etc.), which live in a harem-style communities, it is a common practice for the alpha female to visit the dens of other females and kill their young. It is presumed that this infanticide by alpha female is due to limited resources, and to maintain hierarchy structure. This seems to be the norm.

Now, like I was saying, it is possible for the female to be an alpha without the male partner, but she would have the added burden of own survival and the care of the young; and her alpha status would be in relation to her own group. I am sure there were cases, even before the advent of social protections, in which the females were left to be single mothers, but if we are talking about survivability, this would certainly not be the ideal arrangement as it would lower the chances of survival. A sole alpha female would be rare because the probability of her survivability and success would be much lower. This also depends on her environment and available natural resources (food, game, predators, shelter, etc.)

Not quite so. There are certain objective measures that can determine the truth of such a statement. By “alpha”, I mean dominant and aggressive. It’s certainly possible to observe the behavior of a particular female and assess objectively that she dominates certain groups and that she is noticeably more aggressive than others around her.

And in regards to a woman being “alpha” compared to an “alpha” male, I think most of the time she would come off as rather “beta” (although obviously there will be exceptions). But I’m not comparing such women to men (as if we could compare her to her twin brother who shares the same “alpha” gene), I’m comparing her to other females on the alpha/beta spectrum.

I’m both Alpha and beta. There’s a navigation process in asserting oneself that most betas lack for it takes will and skill to be Alpha in the first place. To protect loved ones, I am very Alpha (physically, mentally, spiritually) in short very capable.

As a women though, being Alpha full-time turns me into a micro-manager with a perfectionism complex: efficiency, effectiveness, doing…done. Then Alpha, for me, becomes like a job I’m chained to, a never ending stream of projects. Then gibwiser asks if I can have any fun. Not with my cranky pants on.

But this designation is functional within the group. Like I mentioned in the wolf doc. the more assertive she wolf, Wyakin, was not picked by alpha male, and so was relegated to the Omega female status. That means she could not reproduce and was the last in line to eat. As to why this happened is not certain, but the success of the pack depended on a decision like this. Alpha, beta, omega designates functional status within the group, and despite her personality, or skills, she is functional Omega, just like Melania is functional Alpha, and just like Trump is a functional President.

Yes, she is Alpha by association.

And this is why I say Alpha is a functional designation, just like an idiot boss is still a Boss; except in the wild, the skills and adaptation of alphas to natural environment decides success of the whole pack, or rather, the ever fluctuating natural environment selects for best suited alphas.

Pandora wrote:

Got anything more specific than a TV series?

Gib wrote:

Seems to have progressed since you posted this.

Arc wrote:

Interesting article. Did you notice how most people’s opinions on an Alpha female are very different from each other’s, especially when giving female examples. I would disagree with some of the women chosen to represent an Alpha. It seems as though it is actually difficult to determine.

With the picture of the woman and the baby, I would not necessarily give her the title of Alpha. In fact, she represents what a woman is naturally but this seems to be lost in this generation, hence she is singled out as being different. I suppose she is, because today, she is becoming a rarity. For a woman, it is a privilege to be a mother and wife, but, this also depends heavily on what type of man her husband is. You can’t separate the two. Each complement the other and for the relationship to be successful, there must be respect at least and affection and concern for the well being of each other. A woman does not want to dominate a man, neither does she want to be dominated. I think feminists have much to answer for in this respect.

Once a person gets to know you, Wendy, it’s obvious you know how to have fun.

Pandora, I’m dense right now, so you might have to explain this too me a few times.

Sounds like you’re saying “alpha-ness” is not always a matter of genes, and it’s not always a matter of environment or upbringing, but can be the result of what social roll we are put into. I consider myself to be relatively beta but if I were forced into the roll of group leader at some company, I could probably train myself, or become conditioned, to be alpha. It might also just come out as a function of what people expect from you. For example, the beta she wolf who gets selected by the alpha male (was it beta she wolf? I didn’t watch the whole video) all of a sudden gets the respect and subservience of the rest of the pack (right?). She doesn’t have to do anything. They just treat her as alpha. And so it becomes incredibly easy for her to slip into that roll.

Have I got it right?

I don’t think “progressed” is the right term.

That’s just the point. Most of what we individually consider to be alpha and beta is based on our own subjective thinking and biases unless we really delve into the subject.
Personally, I don’t think that any of us are pure alpha or pure beta. But I may be wrong. Some may be more this or that at times.
Human beings, such as they are, how could they be? I think that we flow in and out of these categories, for the most part, based on outer influences, what needs to be done in the moment. Yes, there is the influence of DNA and upbringing which contributes.

So basically, except for a chosen few, who may be men and/or women, I think we are like alphabet[a] soup.
I consider myself to be like alphabet[s] soup. I’ve been the alpha to the extreme when called for and I’ve also been the beta.

Gib mentioned an alpha and beta gene which surprised me. I am wondering if there has been evidence found for this.

[quote]
With the picture of the woman and the baby, I would not necessarily give her the title of Alpha /quote]

I definitely agree with this but I was taking it further along the lines of what cannot be seen. We judge by appearance without seeing deeper… many of us are like the iceberg but then again, many of us are not.

But let’s say that during childbirth, this woman’s baby was breach and her water broke but she utterly refused to take anything which would be easier on her during childbirth because it could possibly harm her child – now this woman for me would be an alpha female in the moment and probably has alpha strains within. Do you realize the war and the struggle and determination which goes into pushing a beautiful breached daughter into the world? lol That was me and that’s also many women. But I’m like alphabet[s] soup.

But I still think that for many of us we flow in and out of this physical and mental asset…for lack of a better phrase for it. That “spirit” is within but it needs something to call it out. Without that spirit, we’re basically wimps when life demands something of us ~~ or just plain normal humans.

But why is it so important - like i did - to give ourselves such labels? Do we actually need that kind of affirmation in order to be self-satisfied and happy?

I like that.

Don’t get me wrong. I’m not claiming to know such a gene exists. I’d just be really surprised if our alpha-ness/beta-ness wasn’t in part tied to genetics.

The guardian lol I’m not reading that shit site.

‘alpha in relation to children’ That makes no sense at all. Alpha is a term used to denote the highest position/s in a social hierarchy, usually also signifying those who have most offspring in relation to others in the group. Not all dominance makes one alpha. If a group has 100 organisms, is the 2nd lowest ranked organism alpha because it dominates the lowest ranked one?

gib

Females only act aggressive while others tolerate them due to the unofficial “pussy pass”.

As soon as they are treated the same way a man would be treated in the same situation, or even a bit more lenient, usually this change of attitude happens:

[youtube]www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkggwchrtsQ[/youtube]

If a man slapped a policeman like that, I don’t think he would be treated so nicely and slapped only once.

Anyway, my point is that female dominance/aggression relies completely on male permission.

It’s very different when a female acts aggressively and when a male acts aggressively - for a man the possible costs are much higher because other men will not be as nice and tolerant of him as they would be of a female. They might challenge the aggressive man and beat him mercilessly. So for a man to be aggressive takes courage. This is why male aggression is respected and admired.

The only way a woman’s aggression would deserve the same respect is if she had to face the same costs as a man, if she somehow successfully convinced other men that she is a man so that she is treated as a man. Like this woman:
[youtube]www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ip7kP_dd6LU[/youtube]

I remember a game us boys played in school when we were 13-14 years old, we’d randomly slap each other on the upper back as hard as we could. Looking back, it was typical male bonding and testing each other on how strong/resistant to pain we are. The boys who complained and/or didn’t want to participate were considered wimpy and honestly, they were. Of course the teachers were against it, but nobody took it too seriously. Then the tomboy girl came. She wanted to play with the boys and show us she’s no weaker than us, just as tough, blah blah. Then she got smacked on her back and guess what she did - yep, she started crying and went to complain to the teacher, parents were called and the boy who smacked her was in trouble.

That’s basically the problem with most aggressive females - they want to be considered just as tough as the boys, they want the respect the masculine boys have but they don’t want to pay the costs for it. When things don’t go their way they revert to being victims, innocent little girls.

Presuming wolves are anything like humans in this regard, assertiveness is not an attractive trait in females. Males are already in conflict with other males, either minor conflict with other males in their own society in times of peace, or conflict with foreign males in times of war. In his home a man wants to rest and recover to prepare for further conflict, he doesn’t want more conflict there.

btw gib I never even mentioned goth chicks.