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Female Fidelity in Art

PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 1:41 am
by Pandora
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fidelit ... _symbolism)

A dog is a symbol of loyalty and obedience and was often used in art to signify (specifically) a female fidelity to her man, her legal owner. The husband, while away on a military campaign, or business trip, of whatever, was most certainly free to mess around with local women during his free time, while his docile obedient wife enjoyed (or supposed to) the company of her loyal lap dog, which was also used to remind her of the “virtue” of being living, obedient, and loyal, like her dog.

Venus of Urbino, Titan
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Venetian woman with a lap dog.
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Catharine van Hemessen, Portrait of a Lady
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Woman with a dog, by Lorenzo Costa.
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Venus with an organist and a dog
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Lavinia Fontana- Lady with a dog

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Paulo Veronese, Woman with a dog
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Frans van Mieris’ women with dogs
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Angola Bronzino, Lady in Red
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Re: Female Fidelity in Art

PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 1:42 am
by Pandora
A loyal woman
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Re: Female Fidelity in Art

PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 1:54 am
by Dan~
What can i say?

Fidelity only works when both practice it.

Re: Female Fidelity in Art

PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:22 am
by Serendipper
So... what about women with cats?

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Re: Female Fidelity in Art

PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:46 am
by Mr Reasonable
You could find 10 pictures of women with dogs, and then just attribute whatever Freudian meaning to it that you want. I don't think this is all that compelling an argument, historical references or not. Aside from that...who are the people that are putting so much thought, time and effort into this sort of thinking? Isn't it a bit shallow? I dunno. Convince me that this is more than mundane babble.

Re: Female Fidelity in Art

PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:51 am
by Dan~
These women never cut their finger nails, and they enjoy eating raw mice.

Re: Female Fidelity in Art

PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 12:13 am
by Pandora
Serendipper wrote:So... what about women with cats?
. Because of cat’s independent and wild nature it was often associated with the devil in the Medieval Europe, and often represented as lust and treachery in art (sitting with Judas, or by Eve).
A black cat was especially ominous and associated with pagan worship and witches.

Cats have suffered a lot of abuse in that period (before plague), and the irrational fear based abuse highlights the mentality of people at the time.
Medieval Cruelty against cats:
https://ranker.com/list/cat-fairs-in-th ... ve-carlton
It wasn’t just the cats, either:
http://www.badnewsaboutchristianity.com/gap_animals.htm

Cats in the Dark Ages:
http://www.thegreatcat.org/category/cat ... dark-ages/
In Renaissance:
http://www.thegreatcat.org/cats-in-renaissance-art/

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Pilate washes his hands
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Cat sitting behind Judas
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Jan Mandijn’s Witches Cove, with dancing cats:
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Hans Baldung Grien’s Witches (with cats)
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Burning of Louisa Mabree, a French midwife, in a cage full of cats:
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St. Dominick visited by the Devil in the form of a black cat:
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Devil and the cat worshippers kissing the cat’s butt:
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Re: Female Fidelity in Art

PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 3:48 am
by Serendipper
Pandora wrote:
Serendipper wrote:So... what about women with cats?
. Because of cat’s independent and wild nature

Do you think that says anything about people who own cats?

it was often associated with the devil in the Medieval Europe, and often represented as lust and treachery in art (sitting with Judas, or by Eve).
A black cat was especially ominous and associated with pagan worship and witches.

The Egyptians worshiped cats, I believe. I read that it was illegal to harm a cat.

Cats have suffered a lot of abuse in that period (before plague), and the irrational fear based abuse highlights the mentality of people at the time.
Medieval Cruelty against cats:
https://ranker.com/list/cat-fairs-in-th ... ve-carlton
It wasn’t just the cats, either:
http://www.badnewsaboutchristianity.com/gap_animals.htm

Cats in the Dark Ages:
http://www.thegreatcat.org/category/cat ... dark-ages/
In Renaissance:
http://www.thegreatcat.org/cats-in-renaissance-art/

Humans are a plague.

Re: Female Fidelity in Art

PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 8:37 am
by Mr Reasonable
Why are all those women in the paintings so fat?

Re: Female Fidelity in Art

PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 6:57 pm
by Serendipper
Mr Reasonable wrote:Why are all those women in the paintings so fat?

That was sexy back then. A bigger woman would yield more successful pregnancies. They didn't have the technology we have today to compensate for lack of innate health which now allows what otherwise would be considered "unhealthy women" to be desirable.

Read more here viewtopic.php?f=1&t=193932#p2697050

Re: Female Fidelity in Art

PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 7:23 pm
by Pandora
The Egyptians worshiped cats, I believe. I read that it was illegal to harm a cat.


I think on the flip side, they also fetishized/objectified them and offered them as sacrifice to Bastet. It must have been quite a profitable business for the priest class at the time.

Egyptian kitten with signs of violence may have been sacrificed
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.livesc ... ering.html
High demand for animal mummies/offerings may have led to creation of “dummy” mummies
https://www.google.com/amp/amp.history. ... al-mummies


The later “dummy” offerings (like the cat shaped mummies stuffed with feathers and cloth) seem to be a common practice worldwide, when the real sacrifice eventually becomes more symbolic, like the multitude of clay and bronze bull (and horse) votive offerings found in Ancient Greece, for example.
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Re: Female Fidelity in Art

PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 7:36 pm
by WendyDarling
With the model Twiggy came the push for scrawny which looks sickly more often than not. Wasn't her reign in the '60s?

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Twiggy standing next to a mannequin

Otherwise women in the '30s through the '50s had meat on their bones, but they were not obese, but may be considered out of shape by today's standards.

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Marilyn Monroe 5'5", 118 lbs on average, but definitely fluctuated.

I kind of dropped out of the art scene, so other than in photography, are non fiction females even depicted in art anymore?

Re: Female Fidelity in Art

PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 8:41 pm
by Serendipper
Pandora wrote:
The Egyptians worshiped cats, I believe. I read that it was illegal to harm a cat.


I think on the flip side, they also fetishized/objectified them and offered them as sacrifice to Bastet. It must have been quite a profitable business for the priest class at the time.

Egyptian kitten with signs of violence may have been sacrificed
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.livesc ... ering.html


Interesting, but on the other hand, cats often die of diseases and such and a mummified cat could be the equivalent of a stuffed pet today. Also, small cats aren't necessarily kittens. I wonder how they substantiate all those claims.

High demand for animal mummies/offerings may have led to creation of “dummy” mummies
https://www.google.com/amp/amp.history. ... al-mummies

Dummy mummies I can believe. It just seems odd that they would worship cats and also be cruel to them.

The Ancient Egyptians held cats in the highest esteem, the penalties for injuring or killing a cat were severe. They worshipped a Cat Goddess, often represented as half feline, half woman, whom they called Bastet. http://www.catmuseumsf.org/egyptcats.html

As a revered animal and one important to Egyptian society and religion, some cats received the same mummification after death as humans. Mummified cats were given in offering to Bast. In 1888, an Egyptian farmer uncovered a large tomb with mummified cats and kittens. This discovery outside the town of Beni Hasan had eighty thousand cat mummies, dated after 1000 BC. The punishments for harming cats were severe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cats_in_ancient_Egypt

The Egyptians were an agricultural society dependent upon grains which the cats protected from mice that also spread disease.

I'm ok with hunting, but anyone needlessly mean to animals ought to be fed to them.

Re: Female Fidelity in Art

PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 9:00 pm
by Serendipper
WendyDarling wrote:With the model Twiggy came the push for scrawny which looks sickly more often than not. Wasn't her reign in the '60s?

Never heard of Twiggy, but she looks like a feminist, so yeah 60s probably.

Otherwise women in the '30s through the '50s had meat on their bones, but they were not obese, but may be considered out of shape by today's standards.

I doubt obese was considered sexy at any time in history. I think most of the focus was on wide hips for carrying babies.

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On one of those discovery channel shows they talked about finding that men rate even anatomically ridiculous hip/waist proportions as sexier than something more realistic. A small waist creates the illusion of larger hips and hence the hourglass shape. Bell-bottom jeans did the opposite; made the waist and hips look small.

I kind of dropped out of the art scene, so other than in photography, are non fiction females even depicted in art anymore?

Depends what you consider art. Kendall Jenner is the highest paid fashion model, but looks like a $20 crack ho to me:

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Re: Female Fidelity in Art

PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:22 pm
by Pandora
Dummy mummies I can believe. It just seems odd that they would worship cats and also be cruel to them.
It makes sense to me. What if killing them was illegal unless it was done by the priestly class? How do you make a distinction between just killing and ritual killing, or “offering as sacrifice”? All cultures have killed animals and even other humans (either enemies or their own clan members) as sacrifice (there apparently was an idea in S America that sacrificing your own child was even an honor). And in our own Bible, Abraham was willing to kill his own son Issac as sacrifice. Even God himself sacrificed his own son. lol! So, what about some cats, or some other animals?
Besides, they believed in afterlife so for them it was probably not seen as bad, especially if you get some priests with contacts in the otherworld involved. Heck, even today in developing world, people are killing tigers, elephants, etc. because they think these animals hold some magical powers on their own, and their body parts can be used as lucky charms. This kind of thinking is not dead yet.

Re: Female Fidelity in Art

PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:28 pm
by WendyDarling
I think most of the focus was on wide hips for carrying babies.

How would weight compensate for bone structure? Petite framed female skeletons with narrow shoulders, ribs, pelvis will always struggle bearing children.

Re: Female Fidelity in Art

PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 10:22 pm
by Serendipper
WendyDarling wrote:
I think most of the focus was on wide hips for carrying babies.

How would weight compensate for bone structure? Petite framed female skeletons with narrow shoulders, ribs, pelvis will always struggle bearing children.

Right, that's what I mean.

The theory is calcium deficiency or vitamin D (sunlight) deficiency results in narrow jaws (crowded teeth) and narrow hips, which is said to also be inherited (the deficiency). I'll see if I can find more substantiation.