philosophy in film

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Re: philosophy in film

Two points...

1] Fueled by testosterone, all men come into the world with the potential to be beasts.
2] When women choose to interact with men, they are taking their chances.

And it's been all over the news of late, hasn't it?

But it is obviously more complicated than that. After all, any number of women have been known [some famously] for being beasts themselves.

So there's the part that revolves around biological imperatives and the part where that gets configured and then reconfigured in any number of different directions out in a particular world experienced in a particular way.

And doesn't that sound familiar?

Also, the post-modern beast is able to sink [slink] down into the scenery with considerably more ease. Given that there are so many more options to choose from in a world where it is far easier to disguise the darker parts that are deeper down. Everyone more or less dons a mask in order to interact out in the world with others. We greet each other's personas, never really knowing for sure who we might meet around the next corner. On the other hand, particular beasts can take advantage of the fact that in a "small isolated island community" they may not be expecting this at all.

And then there's this part: Is he even a beast at all? Or this: Is he the only one?

Of course there are a zillion "psychological thrillers" of this sort made. So what most of us are looking for is summed up by a reviewer at IMDb: "Just when you think the crime genre has run out of original ideas along comes Beast with its entirely fresh take on a seemingly conventional story."

I agree.

at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beast_(2017_film)
trailer: https://youtu.be/eyQLM5S__QU

Beast [2017]
Written and directed by Michael Pearce

Moll: I was obsessed by killer whales as a kid. They almost seemed to be smiling. You know, they travel a hundred miles a day in the ocean. But in captivity, their soundwaves bounce off the walls. They become deaf and dumb. Some even go insane. I read about one whale that broke all its teeeth trying to break free. It just got too much for him. He didn't want to smile anymore.

Right from the start [one look at her face] and we know she is not only talking about whales.

Pascal [looking down at where Moll had cut yourself]: You're wounded. I can fix that.

...

Moll: Isn't that illegal?
Pascal: Can you keep a secret?
[Moll smiles and nods]
Pascal: Then I'm okay.

...

Hilary [Moll's mother]: Who is that?
Moll: Oh, he just gave ne a lift the other night.
Hilary: I could smell him a mile off.

...

Reporter [on TV]: Everyone is hoping for the best but there it is, of course, speculation that Melissa's disappearance is connected to the unsolved abduction and murder of three other girls over the past five years.

The beast, in other words.

Hilary: You went off with that Pascal, didn't you?
Moll: We just went for a drive.
Hilary: Sophie Healey's daughter is missing. There's a killer stalking this island, and you abandoned Jade because you wanted to go for a drive? She's family. Families are supposed to look after each other, but the only thing that seems to matter in your world is you.
Moll: That's not true.
Hilary: So you must be plain stupid then, is that it? You don't know the difference between right and wrong?
Moll: I know the difference.
Hilary: So you're selfish.

...

Pascal: So, "wild one"?
Moll: That was a long time ago.
Pascal: You've got to give me something.
Moll: I hurt someone. When I was 13, I stabbed a girl.
Pascal [intrigued]: What?
Moll: I was bullied at school, and then one day in class this girl came at me and, well, I can't really remember what happened but one minute I'm holding some scissors, and the next, they're sticking out of her.

...

Moll: They tried to beat the bad out of me.
Pascal: You're a good person Moll.
Moll: You don't know me.

And that's the point in this day and age: who can we ever really know?

Pascal [to Moll]: It's a shortcut.

...

Clifford [a detective and Moll's brother]: How long have you known Pascal Reouf?
Moll: A couple of weeks.
Clifford: And what's the nature of your relationship?
Moll: We're lovers.
Cifford [after a pause]: This isn't easy but I have to ask you about your love life. Look, Moll, I'm the last person in the world that wants to ask you this, but we're dealing with an extremely dangerous individual. So it's important for me to know if there is anything out of the ordinary.
Moll: It's not ordinary. It's amazing.

...

Moll: You gonna tell me what this is about?
Clifford: Pascal was on a short list of suspects a few years back. Now his stories always checked out, but I was never convinced.

...

Clifford [showing Moll Pascal's file]: Pascal Renouf. Previous convictions. Three counts of vandalism. Six accounts of dangerous driving. Two of a fray. Illegal poaching, countless times. At 18, he was sentenced to 12 month for indecent assault on a minor. She was 14.
[Moll says nothing]
Clifford: You might want to rethink how amazing he is.
Moll [leaving the car]: Keep up the good work, Cliff.

...

Hilary [to Moll after she rebuffs Pascal]: That's my girl.

...

Moll: Clifford questioned me. It was about you. About your past....He thinks you're the man who has been killing these girls.
Pascal: Do you think it's me?
[Moll just stares at him]
Pascal: What the fuck do you want from me?!
Moll: I want you to tell me that you didn't do it!

...

Pascal [to Moll]: Look, if you know what's good for you, you'll turn and walk away...but I didn't hurt those girls.

...

Hilary: You need to put a leash on him.
Moll: He's just playing with Jade.
Hilary: He's ruining the grass.

...

Moll [at the country club]: I'd like to make a toast. To my family. For everything you've done for me. I forgive you.
Hilary [enraged]: Get out!

...

Pascal [after Moll bashes in the head of a rabbit she just shot]: You okay?
Moll [evenly]: Yeah.

...

DCI detective Theresa [showing Moll a photograph]: Do you know this man?
DCI detective Theresa: Are you saying you've never met him?
Moll: No not to my knowledge.
DCI detective Theresa [showing her another photo]: Here you are engaging him in conversation.
Moll: Well, I was drunk. I can't remember everyone I met.
DCI detective Theresa: He said you danced all night together.

...

DCI detective Theresa [showing her photographs of Melissa's corpse]: She died from suffocation. He filled her mouth with earth.
Moll: Why are you showing me these?
DCI detective Theresa: He doesn't love you Moll. He can't love. And you can't appeal to his humanity. He doesn't have any.

...

DCI detective Theresa: You weren't popular in school, were you?
Moll: I was bullied.
DCI detective Theresa: So was I. So are lots of people. But you tried to kill a girl.
Moll: It was a mistake. I was defending myself.
DCI detective Theresa: You see, it makes me wonder. Are you protecting Pascal bercause you think he's innocent? Or is this just another way of taking revenge on the world?
Theresa [lunges forward and graps Moll by the wrists]: You think because you sing in the choir, and you help look after your father, you can fool people into thinking that you're someone else?

So, another red herring or not?

Moll: I need to talk to you.
Tamara: It was 14 years ago.
Moll: I know. I just wanted to set things right.
Tamara: So you came to my shop?
Moll: I'm so sorry for what happened. It was a mistake. I'm a good person.
Tamara: What's wrong with you?
Moll: Nothing is wrong with me. I was defending myself.
Tamara: What? Are you saying I deserved this?
Moll: No. No, no, no, I'm not.
Tamara: Get the fuck out of here. GET OUT!!

By now, there are three things you don't know. 1] what happened in the past 2] what's happening now and 3] what's about to happen.

Clifford: We got him. Nuno Alvarez. Portuguese man. Worked on the farms. He finally made a mistake. I just wanted you to hear it from me. And to apologise for everything I've put you through.
Moll: What? It's over.
Clifford: Yes. It's over.

Nope, not even close.

Pascal: What would you have done if it was me?
Moll: But it wasn't.
Pascal: It must have crossed your mind.
Moll: I believed in you.
Pascal: Would you still love me?
Moll: What? Why are you asking me that?

...

Moll [looking at herself in the mirror]: It's over.

...

Moll: We could just run away. We could just go somewhere really hot or cold, anywhere. Just somewhere.
Pascal: I've got a life here. I've got a business, a house.
Moll: I can't live here, Pascal.

...

Moll: I gave up everything for you!
Pascal: Yeah, well, I didn't ask you to give everything up.
Moll: I lied for you!
Pascal: And I appreciate that. But you can't just break my life apart because you don't like the weather.
Moll: You're hurting me.
Pascal: Good. Maybe it will sink in and you'll keep your fucking mouth shut.

...

Moll: I lied. I didn't see Pascal at the Wipeout.
Clifford: You think it's Pascal?
Moll: Why are you smiling?
Clifford: You know I was always there for you, but you wanted a bit of rough.
Moll: You're a monster.
Clifford: So, I'm the monster?! You're the one who lied during a multiple murder investigation. What's wrong with you? Hm?
Moll: Nothing's wrong with me.
Clifford: Do you want to go to jail? Is that it?

...

Pascal: Look, if you still want to go away, to leave this place, I'm in.
Moll: You'd do that for me?

....

Moll: I need to tell you something. I know it was you.
Pascal: What?
Moll: I know it was you.
Pascal [after a long pause]: It's a wind-up.
Moll: You're sick. You had a sickness and it overpowered you. And you fought it for a long time. And now you're better. And I need to hear you say it. I need us to be absolutely honest with each other.

...

Pascal: You need help.
Moll: I'm not who I say I am. That girl I stabbed, it wasn't an accident, it was revenge. I tried to kill her.
Pascal: You tried to kill a girl. Why are you telling me this?
Moll: I'm telling you because I know you understand. Whatever you've done and whoever you've hurt, I can understand because we're the same. And so, from the deepest part of who I am, I accept you.

...

Moll: i want you give you all of my love, as deep and as powerful as a human can give another human. But...I need you to tell me that it's over.
Pascal [after a long pause]: It's over....They were nothing to me.

...

Moll [to Pascal]: Kiss me...

Cue the next twist.

Pascal: Wait...wait. We're the same.
[Moll shakes her head and chokes him]
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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iambiguous
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Re: philosophy in film

Some of us still put our eggs all in one basket. We find or stumble onto something in life that just seems to take over. All of our waking hours seem devoted to it. And we certainly imagine it going on far into the future.

Then for one or another reason the basket gets upended. All the eggs fall out. Smashed to smithereens.

Then what?

Here it's more horses. Charley Thompson meet Brady Blackburn. Only Brady is considerably more intertwined with them than Charley ever was. He just doesn't walk them around and around in a circle. He rides them in the rodeo.

In fact, he has invested much of his manhood in being a rising star on the rodeo circuit. What then does it mean to be a man "out in the heartland" when that is no longer a viable option?

In the first scene, we see him gulping down a handful of pain pills; and then pulling staples out of his head. Then wrapping his head in cellophane. It doesn't look good for him.

And then into this falls all the other characters in his life. Him pushing them in various directions, them pushing him right back. Just a portait of one particular man living one particular life in one particular context. Then [as always] it's up to us to make of it what we will. This is basically a self-contained "world all our own" in which contact with "the rest of us" is more or less kept to a minimal. It's all about being who they are: cowboys.

Or what's left of being one these days.

One thing though. Like most of us, there's the part about money. You gotta have enough of it just in order to subsist from week to week. So that sometimes involves doing any number of things you'd really rather not do.

Me, I've never been on a horse in my life. But I have had a couple of baskets upended. Lots of broken eggs.

IMDb

Writer and director Chloé Zhao first met Brady Jandreau during her research for her earlier film, Songs My Brothers Taught Me (2015). She visited the ranch where Jandreau was working and he was teaching her how to ride a horse. She wanted to put him in one of her films, and when he had the accident that left him with life changing head injuries, she decided to base the script for her next film on his story.

The character Brady Blackburn is based on actor Brady Jandreau, who suffered the kind of head injury shown in the film after a fall from a horse.

at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rider_(film)
trailer: https://youtu.be/AlrWRttLTkg

The Rider [2017]
Written and directed by Chloé Zhao

Cowboy: What the hell are you doing here? You're supposed to be up there in the hospital. I seen Tanner at the bar, he said you escaped, huh?
Brady: Told you to check me out.
Cowboy: Well, doctor said you're supposed to stay up there.

...

Wayne [Brady's father to his mentally challenged daughter Lilly]: You're as stubborn as your brother. Look how he ended up. Big old gash on the side of his head. I told him not to go over there and ride that son of a bitch anyway.
Brady: Well, I would have won the rodeo if I would've got her rode.
Wayne: Whole point of it is, is I told you to stay home. I had a bad feeling the whole time.

...

Brady: You should lay off that horse's face a little bit, and he wouldn't be putting his head in there like a goose.
Cowboy: Well, you can tell me what to do when you're riding the son of a bitch. Too bad you went to the rodeo and got all fucked up and you ain't showing him.
Brady: I was doing what I needed to do.
Cowboy: Well, I'm doing what I need to do. Finishing something that you should be doing.

...

Brady [at his mother's grave]: I was tough, Mom...

...

Brady: You know what they do when they do surgery?
Lilly: What? What do they do? Got broke.
Brady: Yeah. I broke it. Broke my skull.
Lilly: Yeah, "broke my skull," right.
Brady: And then you have to cut it with a knife. And then they put a plate in there. And then they sewed it up.
Lilly [stammering]: But you said, "Not gonna, either"?
Lilly: Bucking horse anymore.

...

Brady [to his cowboy friends]: That horse I got on in Fargo was...Everything I heard about her was shit, but I got on her and said, "Fuck it," and...She was good out there for a while, and... Until the whistle, she got real trashy and started turning there by the fence, sucking back, and I went over the front of her. She stepped on my head, popped me out. Didn't knock me out until they got me back to the hospital there. I had a seizure and went into a coma.

...

Cat: Yeah, I been going for 10-plus years, you know? Probably had 10-plus concussions. I probably should... I mean, by NFL standards, I should be dead, you know what I mean?
Cowboy: Got kicked in Kadoka at Rodeo Bible Camp. Went out the back door. That wasn't so bad. It was kind of a stinger there for about a week, but...Started riding and it loosened up a little more.
Tanner: Got on this big, gray mare. I was getting pretty stretched out towards the end, and thank God I heard the whistle blow. But, anyway, right at the end, she slammed me down in the dirt. Hardest I've ever been slammed before. Brady over there told me to get on my short-go horse even though my ribs hurt like a son of a bitch. Ain't that right, Brady? You don't let no pain put you down. You ain't gonna be turning out horses left and right just 'cause your head hurts a little bit now, are you?
Brady: I'm not...I'm not drawing out of anything. I'm just taking some time off. Your brain's a little different than your ribs.
Tanner: Yeah, I know, but it's all the same to a cowboy. Ride through the pain. You gotta make sure this head of yours don't get you scared. I know how that goes with some guys. They get scared to get on again, and then they end up becoming farmers.

...

Cat: Want to say a prayer for Lane. I mean, be best if we say a prayer every day, you know... Yeah. For the guy, 'cause he sure could use it. But I just want to go ahead and say...Pray to God that he takes in all the strength from all his friends across the nation. North, south, east and west. 'Cause we all know he's got friends all over this country. Pulls through. Hope he gets to ride again. Feel the wind hit his back and watch it flow through the grass. We are him, and he is us. We're all one in this together.

...

Brady [to Lane in a wheelchair, his arms twitching back and forth]: Hey, brother. How you doing? Long time, no see, brother. I missed you. Feeling better? You're looking good. Looks like they're doing a lot for you here. How you feeling? Feeling good, huh? It's a pretty good place here.
Lane [who is only able to communicate by forming letters with his fingers]: H.. O... W...S

...

Lane [from a video]: Name's Lane Scott. I'm 18 years old, and I'm from Kennebec, South Dakota.
Announcer: Lane, he's young, but he's really good. Best bull rider to come out of South Dakota, for sure.
Lane: I mean...I mean, I'm not trying to imply anything, but me and Superman have never been seen in the same room together.

...

Lane [on the video]: I was about three years old when my dad introduced me into the rodeo world. There's nothing that really can beat it. You get on a bull, make a good ride, everybody... Everybody in the stands stands up for you, yells, cheers. Um...your adrenaline's going, you... You just can't stop but smiling. There's nothing like strapping yourself onto a 2,000 pound animal and just going with it. That's what I wanted to do, and I knew I wanted to do it for the rest of my life. I couldn't imagine doing anything else.

...

Tanner: Hey. Wake up, Grandpa. Falling asleep over there. You entering Water's Rodeo on the 17th?
Tanner: Yeah. Should be ready to roll by then. Yeah, man, it'll be good to see you back out there, scratching 'em.
Woman: Come on, now, Tanner. He has a metal plate in his head.
Tanner: So? Metal's strong. It's supposed to not break. He'll be fine. He's not a little bitch.

...

Woman: Do you have a resume?
Woman: Any job experience?
Woman: You can't do that right now?
Brady: Well, I would, but I can't ride for a while since I'm laid up, so...
Woman: Any high school? GED?

...

Victor: Wow, Brady. What are you doing here?
Brady: How you doing, Victor? Good.
Victor: All right. So you work here now?
Brady: Yeah. Guy's gotta do what he's gotta do, I guess, huh? I don't know.
Victor: It's none of my business, but when you start getting comfortable, you know, you need to get back to them horses and rodeos and stuff.

...

Brady: Sell him Gus? What do you mean, sell him Gus? You can't sell Gus.
Wayne: You want 'em to haul the trailer away? You want Lilly to not have a place to live? Gus is part of the family. I guess it's his turn for us to make a living.
Brady: Well, where's all your money going? It costs a lot to live. Well, maybe you should've thought about that when you were putting money in the slot machines, going to the fucking bars and casinos. That's where all the money went.
Wayne: Fuck you, Brady. I don't need to hear your shit. It's not like you can fucking ride anymore.

...

Cat: Damn. Really?
Cat: Well, at least he's going to a good home.
Brady: I wish I could ride him one last time, though.

...

Brady [with Gus]: God, I just ask you to take care of Gus on his travels, Lord. Just be with him all the time and protect him. Keep him safe, God. In Jesus' name, I pray. Amen.

...

Pawn shop owner: You know what? I see a lot of young cowboys come in with their saddles. A lot of 'em get rid of 'em. You can't be rodeoing forever, right? Okay, partner, what... What'd you say your last name was?
Brady: You know what, man? I think I changed my mind.

...

Brady [to Apollo]: Good boy. Come on. Let's go for a cruise. How does that sound, bud?

...

Brady: You know, Lil...It's hard not rodeoing anymore.
Lilly: I know it's hard, but can't you please more careful?
Brady: I know I need to be more careful. At least I can ride again now. Train horses.
Lilly: I know. We'll seize this time.
Brady: I can take in a whole bunch of colts, make some money, and maybe get you all those presents you want for your birthday.

...

Doctor: What's going on with your hand is called a partial complex seizure. The brain is sending these signals too fast, and your hand can't keep up, so it just stays clenched. And your dad says you haven't been resting at all? Is that right?
Wayne: I told him to rest. He never listens, though.
Doctor: If you don't stop, your seizures are gonna get worse. And you can't afford another head injury on top of the one that you have. Think about it, okay? No more riding. No more rodeos.

Back to Dakotamart.

Wayne: You know, I'm your dad. You can talk to me. Well, Brades, we have to play the cards we're dealt. Sometimes dreams aren't meant to be. It's too bad your mom ain't here. You and her could be stubborn together.

...

Cat: You know, I...I know about your hand. I know you ain't supposed to be rodeoing or anything like that. Must be tough. But you just gotta learn to let it go. Move on. Or else it'll eat at you. But it's gotta be tough. I mean...I understand.

...

Wayne [with a gun in his hand]: I'm sorry, Brady. This is all there is to do. Whistle for him when you walk away, please.

...

Brady: You know, Lilly, Apollo got hurt, and we had to put him down.
Lilly: Nope. Nuh-uh.
Brady: It's not fair to the horse. He can't run and play and do what he wants to do. She doesn't go on. You know, I got hurt like Apollo did. But I'm a person, so I got to live. If any animal around here got hurt like I did, they'd have to be put down. You know, Lilly, I believe God gives each of us a purpose. To the horse, it's to run across the prairie. For a cowboy, it's to ride.

...

Wayne: Where are you going with that?
Brady: Where does it look like I'm going? I'm going to the rodeo.
Wayne: You fucking crazy?
Brady: I'm gonna ride. I figured you were coming to watch.
Wayne: What the fuck would I wanna come for? Watch you kill yourself? You're just stubborn as hell. You won't listen to nothing anybody tells you anyway.
Brady: Oh, I don't listen? I always fucking listened. I listened to everything you fucking said to me. What happened to "Cowboy up," "Grit your teeth," "Be a man"? What happened to all that, Dad?
Wayne: You don't need to go ride today. You don't need to fucking go ride.
Brady: Bullshit. I'm going. I'm entered, and I'm riding.
Wayne: Go kill yourself, then.
Brady: I'm not gonna end up like you.

...

Cowboy: Your horse is in the goddamn chute!

...

Brady [to Lane]: Come on. Look up at me, brother. Grab your reins. All right, wheel him around to the left. All right, now to the right. All right, go ahead, stop him. Back him up. You're on...You're on big old Gus again. Loping across there. Remember that wind on your face. Through the badlands, chasing them cows out of the trees. You excited? You bet, brother.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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iambiguous
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Re: philosophy in film

For those of us who are not artists, imagine trying to narrow the gap between viewing art and creating it. Is it even possible?

Or are there just too many variables involved [technical and otherwise] to create a narrative that is both lucid and comprehensive?

Some look at particular works of art, figure a kid could do it, and scoff at the idea that it is even art at all. And what of those who haul a urinal into a museum and exhibit that as art?

Are there creations that truly are art? Then this: Are there ways in which to decide if any particular creation is among the "great works" of art?

Imagine then trying to get into the mind of an artist who goes about the business of creating a work of art. Why choose this and not that?

Here we have the story [a more or less true story] of the American critic [and art-lover] James Lord choosing to pose for a portrait. A portrait painted by the artist Alberto Giacometti. Then the exchange between them. The parts in particular that revolve around "the beauty, frustration, profundity and sometimes chaos of the artistic process".

And, after all, in this world what must one possess in order to be described as an "artistic genius"? Is this actually something that can be understood? And then explained to those of us who look at art...but not much more beyond?

Giacometti's life is portrayed exactly as you would imagine the life of the artist. And, so, any up and coming artists today now know how to model their own life. So, is this but one more rendition of art imitating life imitating art imitating life.

Bottom line [mine]: I still don't get it. That gap between what the artists think that they are after in their work and what I imagine that actually means to them. I lack the technical skills to judge, but I suspect it goes beyond that: an artistic "sensibility" I was simply never able to acquire.

In other words, when they talk about their art it all still goes over my head.

The closest someone like me can get to it are those moments when I'm grappling to find just the right words to express what I think I mean about what I think I feel about something.

IMDb

Alberto Giacometti was born in Borgonovo, now part of the Switzerland municipality of Bregaglia, near the Italian border. He was a descendant of Protestant refugees escaping the inquisition. His brothers Diego and Bruno would go on to become artists as well. "Pointing Man" sold for $126 million,$141.3 million with fees, in Christie's May 11, 2015 Looking Forward to the Past sale in New York, a record for a sculpture at auction. The work had been in the same private collection for 45 years.

The filmmakers meticulously recreated Giacometti's studio, using archive photos and footage. The Giacometti Foundation in Paris assisted the production, on the condition that any artworks created for the film would be destroyed after production was completed.

According to the website of the art auction house Christie's, the portrait of James Lord sold in November 2015 for \$20,885,000. Painted in 1964, it was 45 ¾ x 31 ¾ in. The painting was called "James Lord." Christie's writes: "The result of this intense exchange between Giacometti and James Lord, the artist and his sitter, is a superb head whose eyes flash the penetrating gaze of a Byzantine icon, a seated figure that displays the assertive presence of an Egyptian pharaoh, and a lambent corona of silvery grey paint that projects the aura of a Christ en gloire, en majesté.

at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Portrait
trailer: https://youtu.be/sRsiW5c29Sk

Final Portrait [2017]
Written and directed by Stanley Tucci

James [voiceover]: In 1964, I was a young writer living in Paris. I had written a few articles about Alberto Giacometti, who was one of the most accomplished and respected artists of his generation. I had become good friends with Giacometti and his brother, Diego. And one day, after an exhibition, he asked me to sit for a portrait. He told me it would take no longer than two to three hours. An afternoon at the most.

...

Annette [Alberto's wife]: Okay. I'm going to Le Dome. Would you like to join me?
James: I would, but we're about to start...
Annette: Ah, yes, you're my husband's next victim.

...

Alberto: You have the head of a brute.
James: Gee, thanks.
Alberto: Yeah. You look like a real thug.
James: Thank you.
Alberto: If I was to paint you as I see you now and a policeman was to see this painting, you'd be thrown in jail, like that.
James: Perhaps we shouldn't continue.
Alberto: No, no, no. It's all right. Because I'll never be able to paint you as I see you.
James: Are you sure?
Alberto: Yes, of course. It's impossible.

...

Alberto: Just so you know, it is also impossible to ever finish a portrait.
James: What do you mean?
Alberto: Well, portraits used to be finished. They had to be. They were necessary. It was a substitute for a photograph. Now, portraits have no meaning.
James: So, what we're doing is meaningless?
Alberto: Mm. And impossible. And I'm not even doing it. I can only ever try to do it. So on that note, shall we stop for the day?

...

James [voiceover]: Each night, after working with me, Giacometti would work with Caroline, a prostitute with whom he'd been openly carrying on a relationship for three years. Are you done? She'd become his primary model, his nighttime companion...and his obsession.

...

James: Have you always been like this?
Alberto: Like what?
James: So doubtful of your own ability.
Alberto: Of course. It gets worse every year.
James: But you become more successful every year.
Alberto: What better breeding ground for doubt than success?

...

Alberto: It's what I deserve, I suppose, after 35 years of dishonesty. That's what I am. I'm dishonest. I'm a... I'm a liar.
James: Dishonesty? How do you mean?
Alberto: All these years that I've been showing things. They were all... they were all unfinished. Probably shouldn't have been started in the first place. Then again, if I hadn't shown them, I would have felt like a coward, so...Ugh! I don't know. I'm neurotic.
James: Well, I understand that. I had a friend who was so neurotic, he ended up committing suicide.
Alberto: I'm sorry.
James: Hmm. Do you ever think about it?
Alberto: Suicide? Mm. Every day. Of course. It's not like I feel life is bad. It's just that I...I think death must be the most fascinating experience, you know? I'm just...I'm just curious.

...

Alberto [to James]: I hid it in the toilet. Not in. Up.

...

James: How did it go?
Diego [Alberto's brother]: He made out like a capitalist.

...

James: So, what did you give them?
Diego: Drawings that were like hundreds of others he's done.
James: And they were happy?
Diego: Happy? Of course they were. They know those are what sells. Those are "Giacomettis"!

...

Alberto [examining James's face]: Front on, you look like a brute. Side on, you look like a degenerate....One way you go to jail. The other, you go straight to the asylum. I'll probably meet you in there.

...

Annette: How do you like posing?
James: I like it. I do. But it's, you know, it can be exhausting. He makes me nervous sometimes. The way he yells at the canvas when things aren't going well. But what's really disturbing is just how the portrait itself seems to come and go as if Alberto has no control over it whatsoever. Then other times, it just disappears entirely. I feel like this could go on for months.
Annette: Sometimes it does.
James: There's nothing anyone can do about it?
Annette: No.
James: Even Alberto?
Annette: Especially Alberto.

This is the part that goes far over my head.

Alberto [more to himself than to James]: Yeah, the nose is in place now. That's some progress.

...

Alberto: Have you ever wanted to be a tree?
James: Um, no.

...

James [voiceover]: I was glad when that day's session was over. Giacometti was miserable and his mood was pervasive. I was to find out that evening that Caroline had gone missing.

...

Diego [of the missing Caroline]: He's too attached to her. He goes crazy without her. He makes himself go crazy.
James: Yeah, why?
Diego: My brother can only be happy when he is desperate and uncomfortable in every part of his life.
James: Well, he should be very happy, then. But it's like he's determined to remain completely unsatisfied.
Diego: No, not completely, just perfectly.

...

Alberto: Have you ever killed anyone?
James: No. Why do you ask?
Alberto: I think you're the sort of person who's capable of doing anything, and I mean that as a compliment.
James: Thank you. What about you? Have you ever killed anyone?
Alberto: Mm. In my mind, I've killed many people.
James: Who are these poor souls?
Alberto: Just people. Women. Before I could go to sleep, when I was young, every night I'd fantasize about killing two women. After I raped them.
James: Oh. And... and this helped you fall asleep?
Alberto: Yes. It comforted me.

...

Alberto: Cezanne was right.
Alberto: Squaring everything. Everything is a cone or a cylinder or a sphere...Cezanne was the last great painter. It was just too bad the Cubists took him so literally.
James: The Cubists produced very pretty things.
Alberto: Oh, who needs pretty? Then they realized they'd reached a dead end and gave up. Picasso and Braque were the really guilty ones.
James: Yes, but Picasso moved on.
Alberto: Oh, yes, so that he could copy every great artist that ever lived.
James: I know, but every artist copies.
Alberto: Yes, but you do it as an exercise. It's just an exercise.
James: Oh, Alberto. I think you're being a bit harsh.
Alberto: No, it's true. I'm telling you, I promise you. Picasso could be so pompous. "I was unable to reach the top of the scale of values, so I smashed the scale." Oh, that's bullshit.
James: He really said that?
Alberto: Of course he did. Who else would say it? Picasso's always making statements like that, you know. At first they sound like they're so full of wit, but they're full of shit. They have absolutely no meaning.

This is the part where I get stuck.

James [voiceover]: I decided to take up swimming as a way to relieve not only the physical strain of posing but what was slowly becoming a psychological strain as well. One morning after my swim, I was invited to see the ceiling of the opera house that Chagall had just painted. The magnificence of the work left me feeling lighter than I'd felt in days. Then, I went to sit for Giacometti...
Alberto [in the studio at the canvas]]: Oh, fuck! Oh, fuck! Look at this. It's hopeless. The head is all lopsided. It's a mess!

...

Alberto [muttering aloud more to himself]: Chagall. Opera. Fucking house painting. You can't compare that to what I'm trying to do here.

...

James [after 12 days of posing]: Oh, my God.
Diego: What?
James: How much longer can it go on like this?
Diego: It could go on forever.
James: He says a portrait can never be finished.

...

James: Well, at any rate, I can't keep doing this. It seems like we pose for hours and hours and nothing happens.
Annette: That's the reason why I don't pose anymore.
James: Why?
Annette: Because your whole life can be swallowed up.

...

Alberto [staring at the canvas]: It's gone too far. At the same time, not far enough. I'll never find a way out of this.
James: Well, we could always just stop.
Alberto: No, we can't stop...I have to stop.

...

James [looking at the canvas]: Wow. It looks really good. What'd you do?
Alberto: I have no idea.

...

James: I wish that I could see things the way you do.
Alberto: That's all I'm trying to do. I just want to show how things appear to me. But I'm unable to do that.
James: No, that's not true.
Alberto: When I was young, I thought I could do everything. When I grew up, I realized I could do nothing. That's what kept me going. Four more sittings. How does that sound?
James: Thank you.
Alberto: You don't have to do that. We've worked on it together. I don't know.
James: That's...I guess that's true. I certainly don't feel how Madame Cezanne did.
Alberto: What do you mean?
James: In the end she said she just felt like an apple.

...

James [at the studio which had been ransacked]: Oh, my God. What happened? Did they take anything?
Diego: No, no.
James: Well, shall we call the police?
Alberto: No, no, no. It wasn't thieves. They came for me.
Diego: It was Caroline's pimps. It's a warning.

...

Pimp: It's going to be the same price. Whether you sleep with her or she just sit in front of you.
Alberto: I see. Same price for both. Mm. You don't want to charge me more for one?
Pimp: What?
Alberto: Which one would you charge me more for?
Pimp: For fucking her. We could charge you more for both things. We can take more for both. Alberto: Okay. Okay. I don't mind.
Pimp: Okay. So...so we can get a lot more in that case. Another 10 per hour for each.
Alberto: Good.

...

Alberto [putting a pile of money on the table]: This pile is all retroactive.
Pimp: What?
Alberto: It's payment for the last six months that I've spent with her. And this pile is in advance for the next six months.
Pimp: Ah. Cheers.
Alberto: Cheers!

...

James [after the pimps leave]: It looks like you made them happy.
Alberto: Please. I would have paid ten times that amount.
James: What do you mean?
Alberto: She's given me so much.

...

Alberto: Oh, fuck!
James: What are you doing?
Alberto: Negative work. I have to do this. Sometimes, you know, to do something, you can only do it by undoing it.
James: Yes, but how many times?
Alberto: Mm? How many times? Good question. It's not always as easy as you think.
James: What isn't?
Alberto: The undoing of something.
James: I thought the portrait looked really good.
Alberto: When?
James: Earlier, when we started.
Alberto: It can be very tempting to be satisfied with what's easy. That happens a lot when people tell you something's good. There. That's good.

You can just imagine what he means by that here.

Alberto: What's the matter?
James: Nothing. It's just sometimes it feels like there's very little hope.
Alberto: Hope? Is that what you want? Hope?
James: Well, it'd be nice. Hm. We've been doing this for a while now.
Alberto: Yes, but, you know, for me, whenever I feel the most hopeful, that's the time that I give up.

And it's precisely this sort of "explanation" that most exasperates those of who are not artists. We're just not sure how much of it is bullshit. Next up: Day 17

James: You know when he uses the big brush with the grey paint and he undoes everything he's already done?
Diego: Uh-huh.
James: It's normally after that that he grabs a black brush with a fine tip and he starts to construct the head all over again from nothing for the 100th time, right?
Diego: Yeah. Basically, yes.
James: Then he's onto the highlights with the ochre - and the grey and all.
Diego: The grey. Yes.
James: And then he finishes with the final touches of white. Then he gets that big brush again...and obliterates everything he's already done.
Diego: Right.
James: That's when I'm gonna stop him.
Diego: What do you mean?
James: I mean I'm gonna try to stop him.
Diego: Okay. Yeah. You're very brave.

That's the plan. It works.

James: I don't know how to thank you. It's been an honor to pose for you.
Alberto: Are you out of your mind?
James: I didn't say I wanted to do it again.

...

James: The next day, Giacometti and I went for a walk and said our goodbyes. He told me he would have liked to accompany me to the airport, but he was hesitant to ever get back into a car any time soon. The portrait was shipped to an exhibition in the States and I returned to New York for an extended stay. Giacometti and I wrote often but never saw each other again, as he was to die a short time later. In his last letter, Giacometti told me how much he enjoyed painting my portrait and that he hoped I would come back soon so that we could start...all over... again.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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iambiguous
ILP Legend

Posts: 27387
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
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Re: philosophy in film

Harry Dean Stanton. Lucky here. Only not lucky enough to live to see the release of this, his final film.

That's the way it works though when you're old. You never really know when it's coming.

For some, of course, Stanton will always be Travis Henderson. That epic character from Paris, Texas.

Here he plays another "character". The "cantankerous but lovable" old man who goes about the business of not being like anyone else. But "old age" may have finally caught up with him. His health might be down for the count and his time might be about up. So he has to figure out a way to deal with it. Something that [sooner or later] most of us will confront.

Only Lucky is an atheist. No immortality and salvation on the other side for him. Or none that he is able to believe in.

On the other hand, are you ever really too old to find enlightenment? To tie everything together into something analogous to a meaningful life?

Apparently the whole point here is learning how to be "realistic" about things you can do nothing about. And death and dying is clearly one of them.

I certainly think so. But there will always be films like this around. Films that aim to come up with one thing or another that "the old" can poke around with. Dig deep enough, the refrain goes, and you too can come up with enough "positives" to put all the accumulating shit in perspective.

With death though it usually comes down to two things. One, how much you're got to gain if you keep on living and, two, how much you got to lose if you stop. Pain and suffering, for example.

Then this: The last time I saw James Darren was in The Guns Of Naverone. We all get fucking old, don't we?

IMDb

The five yoga exercises Lucky performs at the start of each day are the Five Tibetan Rites of Rejuvenation, although in the film they are not employed in the recommended order. Performed originally by Tibetan Buddhist monks, they are said to enhance health and longevity.

As with the character in the movie, Stanton actually served as a cook aboard the USS LST-970, a tank landing ship, during the Battle of Okinawa.

Harry Dean Stanton (who played the role of Lucky) did not live long enough to see the official release of the movie in US on 29 September 2017. He died on 15 September 2017 at the age of 91.

According to Logan Sparks, the screenwriter and a longtime friend of Harry Dean Stanton's, Stanton knew 'Lucky' would be the last film he made before dying.

at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucky_(2017_American_film)
trailer: https://youtu.be/2KLLkj84GAo

Lucky [2017]
Directed by John Carroll Lynch

Lucky: You're nothing.
Joe: You're nothing.

...

Joe [watching Lucky take out a cigarette]: Those things are gonna kill you.
Lucky: If they coulda they woulda.

...

Lucky [reading aloud from the dictionary]: "Realism, noun. The attitude or practice of accepting a situation as it is and being prepared to deal with it accordingly." Now the other one. "The quality or fact representing a person, thing or situation accurately or in a way that is true to life."

...

Lucky [aloud to himself]: I always thought that what we all agreed on was what we were looking at, but that's bullshit, because what I see is not necessarily what you see. Realism. That's it. That's some heavy shit.

...

Vincent: What's the good word.
Lucky: Realism is a thing.

...

Paulie [at bar]: You know, friendship between animals and humans is essential. And special. And friendship is essential to the soul.
Lucky: What?
Paulie: Friendship is essential to the soul.
Lucky: It doesn't exist!
Paulie: What, friendship?
Lucky [loudly]: The soul!

...

Lucky: That's it? I'm not dying?
Doctor: Well, when it comes to most things like heart disease or cancer, at your age, if it was gonna kill you it would have.
Lucky: So?
Doctor: Well, short of shooting you with a silver bullet or stabbing you with a wooden stake, it seems the older you get, the longer you're gonna live.
Lucky: So, why did I fall down?

...

Doctor: I could do a lot more tests, but I think it's gonna turn out to be exactly what I think it is.
Lucky: What's that?
Doctor: You're old, and you're getting older.
Doctor: It's all I got.
Lucky: Well, that's bullshit.
Doctor: The body is gonna break down at some point. As far as I know, no one has lived forever.

...

Doctor [to Lucky]: You know most people don't get to where you are. They get hit by a bus or get leukemia or something. They never get to the moment that you're in right now. We have the ability to witness what you're going through, to clearly examine it and, more importantly, to accept it.

...

Paulie: I'm still ungatz. Nothing. But I've got everything. Isn't that something?
Lucky: Something for you.

And that's the way it is. Something works for you. But your own set of circumstances may well be alien to others.

Lucky: Who's this?
Howard: Hey, Lucky. This here is my attorney Bobby Lawrence.
Lucky: You know why sharks don't eat attorneys?
Bobby: Uh...
Lucky: Professional courtesy.

...

Bobby: You know Lucky you remind me of...
Lucky [seemingly out of the blue]: Shut the fuck up!

...

Lucky: President Roosevelt is gone, Howard, and you're all alone. We come in alone, and we go out alone.
Bobby: That's awfully bleak.
Lucky: It's beautiful. "Alone" comes from two words all-one. It's in the dictionary.

...

Lucky: He's not missing, Howard, he's there. Wherever the fuck that is. And if he's not there, then he's nowhere.
Bobby: Well, I'm sure he's okay.
Lucky: Why don't you go fuck yourself. You don't give a shit about him. You're here to suck him dry. You lamprey, leech, vulture. Con him out of his last dime, just so he can leave everything to a turtle.
Howard: Tortoise! He's a tortoise!!

...

Howard [to everyone in the bar]: President Roosevelt was born in a hole in the desert. At that time, a little creature smaller than my thumb...You all think of a tortoise as something slow. But I think about the burden he has to carry on his back. Yeah, it's for protection. But ultimately, it's the coffin he's going to be buried in and he has to drag that thing around hos entire life? Go ahead and laugh, but he affected me. You know what I'm saying. He affected me. There are some things in this universe ladies and gentlemen, that are bigger than all of us. And a tortoise is one of them!

...

Paulie: Go home, Lucky...

...

Loretta: You got somewhere to be, sailor?
Lucky: No. Do you like game shows?
Loretta: Do you smoke grass?

...

Lucky: Can I tell you a secret?
Loretta: Absolutely.
Lucky: You won't tell anyone?
[Loretta says nothing]
Lucky: I'm scared...

...

Lucky: Did you ever think about before you were born?
Joe: No, never did. What are you talking about?
Lucky: New beginning.
Joe: Is that in the crossword today?
Lucky: No. I was just thinking about something that happened to me when I was about 12 or 13 years old. I was at my Aunt's house alone....And only once I got this anxiety attack. I panicked and I was scared to death. I started thinking there's nothing out there. It's all black, there's nothing. And I was scared shitless, man.
Joe: 13...
Lucky: Yeah.
Joe: What happened?
Lucky: I don't know. My Aunt came back and that was the end of it.

...

Lucky [to Bobby]: There's only one thing worse than awkward silence. Small talk.

...

Bobby: A couple of years ago, I was heading to my daughter's school to pick her up. And as I'm turning around the corner, you know, there's a garbage truck that...I mean it just barely missed me. There's no more room between my car and that truck than between me and this tie. A half a second -- a half a second made all the difference.
[Lucky nods]
Bobby: Two minutes later, my daughter hops into the car as if nothing's happened, and, I guess nothing has. But, uh, it really shook me to the core. Yeah, I got hair standing up on my arms just thinking about it.

...

Bobby: You know I came home with my daughter that day and I sat down and I made a will. I wrote end-of-life directives, I upped my life insurance. I paid up front for my cremation. So now if something happens to me...When something happens to me my family doesn't have to worry about the bureaucracy of death. They just call one number and my body's gone by the end of the day. And they don't have to worry about anything for the rest of their life.
Lucky: Well, this doesn't change anything for you, this scenario.
Bobby: Why not?

...

Fred [to Lucky]: I still think about those people on the islands, hiding away in caves, afraid of us. The Japs said that we were going to rape and kill them all. So, we secured the beach and the locals who survived the goddamn firefight, started to throw their children off the cliffs, and then followed them. I guess they thought suicide was better than facing us. I remember this little girl, couldn't have been more than seven, in rags. I don't know, she saw us coming, I guess, and right out of nowhere, out of a hole or wherever it was, and she had this...God, this beuatiful smile on her face. And it wasn't a facade, it was coming from somewhere inside, from the center of herself. Good lord, in that shithole something like that really stands out. It stopped us in our track. Here we were, all covers with shit, pieces of people everywhere, and I couldn't see a tree left. And she's grinning from ear to ear. So I said to my corpsman, I said, "look at this, we have somebody who's happy to see us. And he said, "she's not happy to see you. She's a Buddhist. She thinks she's gonna be killed, and she's smiling at her fate." When I think about that little girl's beautiful face, and that smile, in the midst of all that horror, somehow she summoned...joy. They don't make a medal for that kind of bravery.

What to make of that, right?

Elaine: My place, my rules.
Lucky: Ownership is a fallacy.
Elaine: Why can't you just live by the rules?
Lucky: Authority is arbitrary and subjective.

...

Elaine: The truth is you lit up at Eve's and they kicked you out.
Lucky: It's not about the cigarettes, it's about what I know happened, and what you think happened.
Elaine: You broke the rules. You got busted and banned. That's the truth.
Paulie: How about if we all agree to disagree.
Lucky: No. I know the truth and the truth matters!

...

Lucky: The truth of what is for all of us.
Paulie: Which is?
Lucky [after a pause]: That it's all going to go away. You, you, you, me, this cigarette, everything...into blackness, the void. And nobody is in charge. And you're left with...ungatz. Nothing. That's all there is.
Elaine: What do we do with that?
Howard: What do we do with that?
Lucky [looking around at everyone]: You smile.

Sure, that might work for you. Just don't be surprised if it doesn't.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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iambiguous
ILP Legend

Posts: 27387
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
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Re: philosophy in film

Terrorist attacks are not unlike most experiences. Our reaction to them will revolve largely around our own particular frame of mind. But regarding the overwhelming preponderance of them, at least, we are not "personally involved".

In other words, the attack destroys lives, but not ours. And not the lives of those we know and love. But when we do become a part of the story it can take on a whole new dimension. And everyone brings into it their very own unique set of circumstances.

Especially when the relationship between those who staged the attack and those in the government investigating it are not all that concerned with keeping you fully informed. Or may well be entangled in it all together.

Quan: "Politicians and terrorists, they are just 2 ends of the same snake."

You are more or less on your own.

Here the attack is launched by a new faction embedded in the decades old political struggle that revolves around Northern Ireland. Of course they don't see it as a terrorist attack. They see it as a revolutionary act in support of a just cause. And while these explosive events are often described as "senseless acts of violence" it is precisely the opposite that is the case. Certain groups of people make sense of the world in one way. And they insist that others see it the same way.

If the bombing has anything to do with the IRA at all. As is usual regarding "incidences" like this there is all the stuff unfolding behind the scenes. Can we really believe what does finally end up "on the news"? And then the part where everything is all hopelessly exaggerated "for the movies". The part where "the Chinaman" becomes Rambo. The unbelievable part.

But, again, each of us as indivisuals become entangled in it all only from our own unique vantage point. Which we may or may not be able to effectively communicate to others.

Here though the victim is Jackie Chan. Which means the plot will go back and forth between the inherent drama involved and the inevitable elements of the "action thriller". And then the part where we learn he has a "long-buried past". And the part where the factions involved here see him clearly as a foreigner. As "the Chinaman".

IMDb

In February 2016, two reports were made to the London Metropolitan Police about a "terrorist attack" made on the Lambeth bridge, after many local citizens were not told about a controlled stunt explosion made on a double decker bus for this movie.

Liam Hennessy (Pierce Brosnan) is based on Northern Irish politicians Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness. Adams was actively involved in the Irish Republican movement, although he denies having been a member of the I.R.A. (a claim contested by many). He later became the leader of Sinn Féin, the political branch of the I.R.A., and was heavily involved in establishing a lasting peace accord in Northern Ireland. Hennessy even shows physical resemblance to Adams (short gray hair, full beard, glasses). Adams was never Deputy First Minister for Northern Ireland. That position was filled by Martin McGuinness. In this movie, Hennessey describes a previous nickname, "Butcher of the Bogside" when referring to his terrorist past. Martin McGuinness was known as "Butcher of the Bogside".

trivia at IMDb: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1615160/tr ... tt_trv_trv
at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Foreigner_(2017_film)
trailer: https://youtu.be/r_rSAbYyIq0

The Foreigner [2017]
Directed by Martin Campbell

Man's voice [on phone]: Listen carefully. An action wing of the Authentic IRA has just exploded a bomb at the OBT Bank in Knightsbridge. The code word is "Phoenix". Britain's banks are now targets for the Authentic IRA. The bombings will continue as long as Britain's financial criminal institutions persist in their support of the illegal occupation of Northern Ireland.

...

Reporter: A bomb just went off, an OBT Bank in Knightsbridge. A group called the "Authentic IRA" just phoned it in. They're claiming credit.
Editor: Who's the Authentic IRA?
Reporter: No idea. Never heard of them.
Editor: Christ. There goes the Peace Accord right back in the shit.
Editor [to the newsroom]: Listen up. A bank has just been bombed in Knightsbridge. A group calling itself the "Authentic IRA" just phoned it in. I want to know who they are, who's behind them. Call the Met, Sinn Fin, monitor the blogs. Is it the IRA, or is it something else? ISIS? Al-Qaeda?

...

Liam [Northern Ireland deputy First Minister]: I'll shake the trees as hard as I can, and see what falls. But, Kate, this is crucial. We've managed to keep the lid on this for 19 years now. But there are new upstarts in the ranks pressing for the way things were. I could use something now. And you know what I'm referring to.
Kate [cabinet minister]: The Royal Pardons.

...

Liam [to the taskforce]: Now, that we're all here, does anyone know who this Authentic IRA is? Are they even part of the IRA? Some new upstarts, or something else entirely? Hmm? They're trying to undermine everything we've achieved over the last 19 years. Well, I won't have it. They don't have the support of the people who said no to the violence. Our mandate's to uphold that choice and maintain the Peace Accord, no matter what. Are we in agreement?
Brennan: There's a lot of support for their actions amongst the younger ranks.
Brennan: You were once one of those hotheads, Liam.
Liam: Aye. Long ago, when it was the only way. And what did it give us? More graves than I care to remember.

...

Bromley [police commander]: You were born in Guangxi, China.
Quan: Yes. I'm Chinese Nung. I work in Saigon after the war. We escaped to Singapore. Then we immigrate here.

That murky and mysterious past.

Bromley: I assure you, this investigation is our top priority, Mr. Quan. And we're doing all we can and pursuing every possible lead to find those who killed your daughter. But they're a difficult people to catch. And it may take some time. I need you to understand that.
Quan: You must catch these men, Commander Bromley.
[he takes a bundle of cash out of a bag and places it on the table]
Quan: Twenty-thousand pound. All I have for the names of the bombers.
Bromley: I'm sorry, but we can't take this.
Quan: Then please tell me... Just give me the name of someone in the IRA.

...

Quan [on phone]: Please tell me someone who might know the names of the bombers, someone I can talk to.
Liam: I don't have any connections to those sorts of people. I'm sorry.
Quan: I don't believe you, Mr. Hennessy. You are very powerful man.
Liam: Well, I work for the government and our elected officials. I do not work for terrorists. Quan: IRA politics and terrorism are different ends of the same snake. Whichever end you grab, you still grab a snake.
Liam: It makes a great deal of difference which end you grab, because one end will bite.

...

Liam: I haven't been affiliated with the IRA for 30 years. When I was, I fought hard against the violence. I went to prison for what I did, and paid my debt. Now, I serve the politics of both sides, trying to heal the wounds and bridge the divide. Again, my sincere condolences, but there's nothing I can do.
Quan [noting a photograph on the desk]: What if your wife and daughter were killed by bomb?
Liam: I'd do everything in my power to get justice.
Quan: So, I've chosen you, Mr. Hennessy. You will tell me who killed my child.
Liam: Again, I don't know.
Quan: You will change your mind.

...

Liam [on the phone]: You come to my office and plant a fucking bomb?!
Quan: Have you changed your mind?
Liam: Changed my mind? Are you out of your fuckin' tree? You have no idea who you're dealing with, but you'll soon find out.
Quan: Give me the names.

...

Kate [on the phone]: I hear your office was bombed.
Liam: Hardly. It was the toilet in the hall. An Asian man in his 60s with a grudge. It's all being taken care of.
Kate: Why'd he do it?
Liam: His child died in the bank bombing. He thinks I know who did it.
Kate: He's not the only one of that mind.

...

Hugh: Christ, Liam, so, the committee knows it's my Semtex? Don't know who we can trust anymore. Do we?
Liam: Trust, or fear?

...

Liam: What're you trying to say?
Hugh: The bombing. A few quiet words of encouragement would soothe the ranks.
Liam: "Encouragement"? They kill civilians by the buckets.
Hugh: They went a bit far, I know, but they have given us real momentum. The Brits are on the ropes.
Liam: Jesus Christ, I said hit a few financial targets. That's it. No one gets hurt. That's what we agreed to. You gave me your word.
Hugh: And by God, I kept it. I don't know who they are, don't even know who's controlling 'em. And that's the way it has to be. Because if something goes wrong, they could trace 'em straight back to us.
Liam: Go wrong? This wasn't the fuckin' plan. I needed this to get our people back. You and I have spent our whole lifetime...
Hugh: You don't give a shit about those men! You needed the bombing to shore up the election, to prop up your weakness in the ranks. Well, guess what? In the fog o' war, plans fuckin' change.

...

Hugh: You haven't forgotten what we're fighting for, have you?
Liam: You question my loyalty? I buried my brother-in-law, before that, my da and my two cousins. We spilt our fair share of blood struggling for united Ireland, not profiting off a divided one. So, don't fucking go asking me again if I've forgotten what we're fighting for.
Hugh: If there's anyone profiteering around here, it's you, sitting in your fancy houses, cozying up to the Brits. You're not the Liam I once knew.
Liam: You want the old me, huh? The Butcher of the Bogside, is that what you want? Well then, hear this. You reel in those fuckin' cunts and end it, or by God, I'll bury the lot of yas.

...

Liam: You killed my dog?
Quan: Dog's fine. Just sleeping.

...

Quan: The explosives the bombers use, it's Semtex-H?
Liam: Yes. Yes. You know about Semtex?
Quan: I know Semtex-H. During the war, Czechs make for the Viet Cong. Good for bombs and traps.
Liam: In Vietnam?
Quan: Yes. Many American people died by Semtex-H. Now, IRA use to kill my daughter. That's ironic.

...

Liam: I've read your history. We both know about war. We've both tried to put it behind us. You and me, we're alike.
Quan: We are nothing alike! You're nothing! You kill women and children! Names!

...

Kate: A bus now. For God's sake, 16 dead, twice that injured.
Liam: I'm sorry. I had a plan to nail the bastards. Didn't work.
Kate: I've just come from Downing Street. The PM will consider the pardons, but only if you give up the bombers immediately.
Liam: And how in God's name do I do that?
Kate: Find a way! Plans are afoot to put the paratroops back on your streets in 48 hours.
Liam: Belfast will erupt! You'll give the bombers exactly what they want!

This is basically a snapshot of just how murky these things can become. Everyone has their own personal agenda. Their own political axe to grind.

Liam: A London bus, for Christ sake! Not even fuckin' warnings! Sixteen dead! You stabbed me in the back and sanctioned this bloodbath to get your war back on.
Hugh: The plan had no balls. This wasn't a Bombing Light campaign. You said hurt 'em, and hurt 'em, we did.
Liam: By killing women and children? You can't restrain yourself. You never could. Well, it's over. Their names, aliases, and location!

...

Hugh [to Liam]: You used me. You wanted the pardons for your own political gain. You're a disgrace to the cause!

...

Liam: All I wanna know is, what was discussed when your sweet Aunt Mary was with you? Did she say she was involved with McGrath and the bombers?
Sean: No. Never. She was upset about her brother and kept on about that. When you and I were talking about the code word, she asked about 'em, but she never let on about McGrath.
Liam: Oh, so, she could hear us on the phone?
Sean: No, it was only after our call she mentioned the code word. She thought they wouldn't be of use.
Liam: So, she steered the conversation?
Sean: Well, yes, I guess she did.
Liam: A good manipulator, she is. So, she told the bombers? She told McGrath, McGrath told them. Thick as thieves, they were. She tricked the information out of you, Sean. She used you.

You can never really know what the true motivation and intention of someone is in situations like this.

Joker: She said a gas man turned up with an assault gun, a Chinaman. Started shooting, killed everyone but her, and then walked out the door.
Bromley: She said he was a Chinaman?
Joker: Affirmative. About 60 years old.

...

Kate [on the phone]: The bombers were neutralized, even Sara McKay, whom you called, "Maggie". She gave a reporter the bomb that was to have been put on my flight. She also carried out the bus carnage, and is directly connected to you, and McGrath. We have call-pens going to and from her off the cell towers by your farm and town homes. That's 250 precision locations and activations consistent with your mutual activities.
Liam: Katherine...
Kate: I've spoken to the PM. He's agreed to keep you in office for now. I'm issuing pardons for five On-the-Runs, one is your cousin. But make no mistake, Deputy First Minister, you are ours now. I say "jump," you say "where?"

...

Liam: How did you find me? I gave you the names, like I said.
Quan [showing him a cell phone photo of him with "Maggie"]: This woman, she's a bomber. You lie. You plan everything.
Liam: For whatever it's worth, I never intended to hurt your daughter. Or any of those people.
Quan: Send. Do it!
[Liam taps on the screen]
Quan: It's now on the Internet, you and your mistress. The whole world will know you are a terrorist. Goodbye, Mr. Hennessy.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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iambiguous
ILP Legend

Posts: 27387
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: baltimore maryland

Re: philosophy in film

Jun-hee: Are you still searching for love?
Young-hee: Where's love? It's not even visible. You need to see it in order to search for it.

Love again. It comes in all shapes and sizes. But the shape of this one keeps popping up over and over and over again. Young and beautiful, Young-hee falls in love with an older, married man.

Really, what narrative could possibly be more played out in the cinema than this one? Yet another rendition of love and lust all tangled up in the shadows.

Only this time "art imitates life". The director of the film, Hong Sang-soo, had a "real life" affair with Kim Min-hee, the actress who plays Young-hee in the movie. It's their story turned into a performance for all the world to see. In fact, the affair was rather notorious in Korea. It "stirred up a media frenzy" at the time.

Having once had an affair with a married woman myself, I know of the many, many twists and turns you can become entangled in. Each context is one all its own. But there are any number of experiences that almost anyone involved in affairs become familiar with.

Then you go back and forth:

1] what would you have done?
2] what ought she have done instead?

This is basically a film in which the "action" revolves around a series of conversations between people who seem entirely preoccupied with themselves. The rest of the world is "out there" somewhere, but it never seems to matter. It's always about what they are thinking and feeling. "Society", with all its complex social, political and economic conflicts, never seem to factor in at all.

And then this seems to come up quite a lot: "Who knows?"

IMDb

Art imitates life in this quietly devastating masterpiece from Hong Sang-soo. Kim Min-hee (The Handmaiden, Claire's Camera) in the role that won her the Silver Bear for best actress in Berlin-plays Young-hee, an actress reeling in the aftermath of an affair with a married film director. Young-hee visits Hamburg then returns to Korea, but as she meets with friends and has her fair share to drink, increasingly startling confessions emerge.

at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Be ... ight_Alone
trailer: https://youtu.be/XdXE-MC9qwM

On the Beach at Night Alone [Bamui Haebyun-Eoseo Honja] 2017
Written and directed by Sang-soo Hong

Young-hee: Should I live with you? Shall we?
Young-hee: Not sure? Why, don't you want to?
Friend: No, it's not that. I'm the kind of person who needs to live alone.
Young-hee: For 10 years you were happy with your husband.
Friend: Was I?

...

Friend: You said someone is coming.
Young-hee: I don't know if he will. If he does, he does, if not, fine. I won't wait. Let him come if he does. He knows where I am.
Friend: I don't think he'll come. You said he's married.
Young-hee: So, he won't come?
Friend: No. He's married.
Young-hee: It didn't stop your husband.
Friend: I'm different. I have no desire. No, that's not true...but it's weak.

...

Young-hee: You're an odd person.
Friend: Am I? Sure, you have more desire.
Young-hee: More than you, I'm sure!

...

Friend: Why did you break up?
Young-hee: I guess I was hard to deal with. You know how direct I am.
Friend: Men have a hard time with that. You are quite direct.

...

Young-hee: Honesty is important.
Friend: Is it?

...

Young-hee: I don't care about men's looks anymore. It's not important.
Friend: Really?
Young-hee: Good looking men are all vain.
Friend: You dated a lot of good looking men.
Young-hee: Yeah. I played around a lot.
Friend: Good for you. I never played around a lot. When will I get the chance?
Young-hee: Do whatever you like. Before you die, do everything.
Friend: I don't know. I'm old now.
Young-hee: So, don't waste your time.

...

Myung-soo: You should get married, have a kid before it is too late.
Young-hee: Me? I've got no man.
Myung-soo: Oh, really?
Young-hee: Yes. Men are all idiots.
Myung-soo [laughing]: Really? Idiots?
Young-hee: Yes, idiots.

...

Young-hee: If I'm going to die, do it graciously. That's the feeling that came over me.
Jun-hee: How are the men there? Aren't they better than the men here?
Myung-soo: Men are all the same.
Young-hee: They have nice bodies. And big down there.
Myung-soo. Wait, really?
Young-hee: Really big. No comparison.
Myung-soo: So...it's really true.
Young-hee: They have nice bodies, but inside they're all the same. Men all want the same thing...
Jun-hee: But did you really hold back?
Young-hee: I didn't hold back. But if I meet men that way, I worry that later I'll end up a strange, man-obsessed woman, like a monster. Die graciously!

...

Jun-hee: Are you still searching for love?
Young-hee: Where's love? It's not even visible. You need to see it in order to search for it...I don't want to think about worthless things. I can just die anytime. I'd just like to fade away graciously...

...

Myung-soo: But isn't it better to live? That's why everyone keeps living. It's not according to what you think, but just a will to live.
Young-hee [laughing]: Don't pretend to be wise. Always floundering in thoughts.
Myung-soo: What, me?
Young-hee: You can't love, so you cling to life, right? Because you can't love, you take that at least.

Yeah, I'm thinking, pretty much.

Young-hee [more fiercely]: You're not capable of love, or don't deserve to be loved. But we all sing of love, Have you ever really seen a person qualified to love?
Friend: You need a qualification? Can't we just love? Why get hung up on qualifications? So people with nothing, they aren't allowed to love?
Young-hee [snorting]: If you don't know anything, keep your mouth shut.
Myung-soo: Young-hee's drunk.
Friend: Keep my mouth shut? You shouldn't speak that way.
Young-hee: Keep your mouth shut! None of you are qualified!! Everyone's cowardly, satisfied with fake things, and engaging in dirty acts. You're all happy living that way. You're not qualified to love!

Well, I know that I'm not.

Jun-hee: I'm not qualified to love, but I will.
Young-hee: Oh, no, you can love. Let's get rid of all men, and love each other...I want to kiss you.

Cue Young-hee's dream.

Young-hee: I'll have to take anything later. If no scripts come.
Sang-won: Why wouldn't you receive scripts?
Young-hee: I think you know the reason. I'm a bomb, a bomb!
Sang-won: What do you mean, a bomb?
Young-hee: I've got a destructive side.
Sang-won: No, you don't.
Young-hee: I'm destructive!! I harass people and destroy everything!
Sang-won: It seems she's having a tough day today.
Young-hee: No, I'm like this every day. Thank you, Director.
Sang-won: Why all of a sudden?
Young-hee: Just for everything. You loved me so much! So I'm thankful.
Sang-won: It was because you were so pretty.
Young-hee: I'm pretty? I'm really pretty? Am I prettier than Mari here? The script girl is also pretty. Why so many pretty women around you?

...

Young-hee: Why do you make these films?! Why make it about someone you loved? Trying to lessen your torment?
Sang-won: My torment?
[long pause]
Sang-won: Perhaps.
Young-hee: Are you tomented?!
Sang-won: Yes, a bit. I haven't been normal since then.
Young-hee: No? You seem normal. Even shooting films.
Sang-won [angrily]: I make films but I'm not normal! I've been turning into a monster...so I'm trying to cast that off. I need to cast off my regrets.
Young-hee: You regret it? Do you really regret it?
Sang-won: Yes, I regret it. I constantly regret it. Every day, so much it makes me sick.
Young-hee: Don't regret it. Regretting it changes nothing.
Sang-won: What if I can't stop regretting? This pain, this constant regret. You think I want this? Still...with time it turns sweet, so I don't want to go back. I just want to die with my regret. I can't breathe...
[he breaks down in tears]

...

Sang-won [reading from a book]: "When you love, you must, in your reasoning about that love, start from what is highest, from what is more important than happiness or unhappiness, or that sin or virtue in their accepted meaning, otherwise you must not reason at all."
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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iambiguous
ILP Legend

Posts: 27387
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: baltimore maryland

Re: philosophy in film

To obey or to disobey, that is the question.

Human faith and human sexuality. Every religious denomination has its own unique catechism here. Lines are drawn between vice and virtue. Then the obeyers and disobeyers. Those things you can do and those things you cannot. But it always depends on the particular religious community that you belong to. Not only in terms of what is deemed to be good and what is deemed to be bad, but also in terms of how stringent the church hierarchy is in enforcing transgressions.

Here it is an Orthodox Jewish community and, among other things, there are strictures revolving around homosexuality. The parts that are discussed here: https://www.myjewishlearning.com/articl ... tq-issues/

Ronit had once been shunned by her community for having a sexual attraction to Esti, her childhood friend. Now, years later, with the death of her father, she is back in the community. The attraction is reignited. And that means grappling anew with all the ambiguities embedded in that age old tug of war between human sexuality and religious faith.

So, there's the part that involves all the reactions from others in the community on this side of the grave and, ultimately, what one imagines the reaction of God will be on the other side of it.

It would seem clear that throughtout human history there has always been a combustible relationship between sex and God. And, the more conservative the community, the more combustible that was likely to be. Sex brings us closer to the part where human beings are really just one more species of animal on the planet. And fucking is always going to have that beastly element embedded in it. How then to reconcile that with the Lord? A God that is said to "see all".

With God and religion, the struggle and the anguish does not revolve as much around what is good and what is bad, as it does around whether to or not to obey what you have been told [since childhood] is the right thing and the wrong thing to do. The part about consequences on this side of the grave...and then consequences on the other side.

So, how realistic is all of this? How realistic is the ending? Well, not being a member of an ultra-Orthodox Jewish community myself, I don't have a clue. For me the choices that we make are derived from an entirely different set of assumptions.

Still, if there does exist an actual God of the Jews, what does He think about it?

May you live a long [obedient] life.

IMDb

Rachel Weisz said, [about costar Rachel McAdams] "We really had each other's backs and that's a form of love, I guess. I couldn't have done this with anyone else."

Director Sebastián Lelio on how he remembers his first encounters with Rachel Weisz and Rachel McAdams: "The first day with both was a milestone. I was nervous because, deep down, I did not know if there was going to be chemistry between them. I was at the end of a restaurant talking to Rachel McAdams and from afar I see Rachel Weisz walking. She sits down and they start talking. Immediately I realized that there was going to be tremendous electricity between them. The fact that they were so different was going to work perfect for the game of attraction and magnetism that the movie demanded. From my perspective, seeing them both was a sort of epiphany. I saw there was a movie, it was going to be vibrant and urgent. I realized that it was going to be tremendously powerful to watch the acting duel between them."

Director Sebastián Lelio on how different Rachel Weisz and Rachel McAdams are: "The first sensation I had when working with Rachel Weisz was that I was facing a force of nature, someone of volcanic personality. On the other hand, Rachel McAdams is very meticulous. She studies a lot and is something like an expert in disguise, hiding behind the wig and makeup. It seems to me that, in the end, [McAdams] handled all the complexities of her character with an unique elegance. They are very different and fit right into the characters, who are complementary and counterparts at the same time."

trivia at IMDb: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6108178/tr ... =ttqu_sa_1
at wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disobedience_(2017_film)
trailer https://youtu.be/HEVonh8bjC0

Disobedience 2017
Written in part and directed by Sebastián Lelio

Rav Krushka: In the beginning, Hashem made three types of creatures, the angels, the beasts, and the human beings. The angels, He made from His pure word. The angels have no will to do evil. They cannot deviate for one moment from His purpose. The beasts have only their instincts to guide them. They, too, follow the commands of their maker. The Torah states that Hashem spent almost six whole days of creation fashioning these creatures. Then, just before sunset, He took a small quantity of earth and from it He fashioned man and woman. An afterthought? Or His crowning achievement? So, what is this thing? Man? Woman? It is a being with the power to disobey. Alone among all the creatures we have free will. We hang suspended between the clarity of the angels and the desires of the beasts. Hashem gave us choice, which is both a privilege and a burden. We must then choose the tangled life we live.

Literally some insist. Not so much insist others.

Dovid: So you came to...to mourn the Rav.
Ronit: Why else would I be here?

...

Ronit: So who is Mrs. Dovid Kuperman, Esti? Do we approve?

...

Ronit: You're married.
Dovid: Yes. Yes we are, Ronit.
Ronit: Nobody told me. Why didn't you let me know?
Esti: You disappeared.

...

Ronit: My father just died.
Dovid: I know. I know, I was there.
Ronit: Well, at least you let me know he was dead.
Dovid: It's important that this week is conducted with honor.
Ronit: Honor?
Dovid: It's the most important thing.
Ronit: Of course it is.

...

Fruma: And you're not married. You must find someone, Ronit. It's not funny growing old alone.
Ronit: Oh, well I'm rarely alone. I've got wonderful friends.
Fruma: I expect you have lots of fun. But that will pass. But being married, well, that's the way it should be.
Ronit: Oh, is it? The way it should be? Or is it just institutional obligation?
Uncle Hartog: Now, Ronit, stop right there.
Ronit: I mean, Uncle, let's just say I stayed here for one more year. Let's think about this, okay, right? I would be married off to whoever and then, after ten years in some loveless marriage I might have ended up killing myself. Or I would've felt like killing myself.

...

Ronit: I'm not gonna go to the Hesped.
Esti: What?
Ronit: There's no point in my being here. I'm gonna change my ticket.
Esti: But...

...

Ronit [to Esti but more to herself]: So, all my father did all day, was stay in here and read the Torah and the commentaries on the Torah and the notes on the commentaries - and the debates on the notes.

...

Esti [after they kiss]: It was me who rang the shul in New York to let you know.
Ronit: I'm just gonna get some air.

...

Ronit: Why did you get married, Esti? Why didn't you just leave?
Esti: Do you remember what the Rav used to say about marriage?
Ronit: No.
Esti: You do. "Will you grow old alone?" "Will you grow old with no family, no joys?" "Dovid is a good boy. He...he has a generous heart, and he's crazy about you. Marry him."

...

Esti: The Rav was afraid for me, and if I had to sleep with a man, why not with our best friend?
Ronit: Oh, Esti...
Esti: I think, I think he felt that marriage would cure me. It hasn't been a complete disaster.
Ronit: And that's enough? Do you have to have sex every Friday?
Esti: It's expected.
Ronit: It's medieval.
Esti: It's not mandatory. Nobody gets beaten if they don't feel like it.

...

Ronit: What happened to you?
Esti: Nothing. You happened to me. And then I started teaching and that became important.
Ronit: You can teach anywhere.
Esti: I really love the girls. And I give them ambition.
Ronit: To do what? Push out seven babies and be a good wife?
Esti: Don't. Don't. I'm a good teacher. And I help them to value themselves.
Ronit: Okay, but what about you?
Esti: That is me.

...

Ronit: Esti? What's happened? Are you all right?
Esti [walking hurriedly down the street]: Not here.

...

Esti: Yesterday, I behaved like an adolescent. So stupid and so senseless.
Ronit: Did someone say something?
Esti: Yes! Yes! And I live here.
Ronit: Tell me, what did they say?
Esti: The headmistress, she...It doesn't matter. I...we need to stop this.
Ronit: Okay. Okay. Okay.
Esti: I can't do this. I can't.
Ronit: Okay.

...

Esti: We try here. We try to lead a good life.
Ronit: I know. I know.
Esti: And I do believe profoundly. The word of Hashem is my life.

...

Esti [to Ronit after they have had sex]: I used to think about your life in New York. Mmm. I tried to imagine your room. I kept track of the time difference. So I knew when you were awake and when you were asleep.

...

Ronit: What?
Esti: I was just thinking of the Rav walking in on us.
Ronit: Oh, don't.
Esti: His face. What did he say? "Hashem, strike me dead!"

...

Esti: What? She came to you?
Dovid: Yes. Tell me the truth.
Esti: I, uh... I kissed Ronit.
Dovid: You kissed her?
Esti: I'm sorry.
Dovid [angrily, grabbing her]: Esti! What are you doing to us?
Esti: I've tried! -I have!
Dovid: What do you want? You want to be hurt again? Has Ronit asked you to go back with her?
Esti: Oh, Dovid!
Dovid: She'll go back to her friends. Her men. What's wrong with you? What's wrong with you? I mean, what is it? Just tell me.
Esti: Can I? Can I?
Dovid: Yes. We've always been honest with each other.
Esti: Have we?
Dovid: We have. Yes.
Esti: Have we? I got the message to Ronit about her father. I wanted her to come back.
Dovid: No.
Esti: Yes. Yes, I did.
Dovid: No, you didn't. She's taking advantage of you.
Esti: Look at me.
Dovid [shouting]]: You can't even see it, you're blind!
Esti [fiercely]: No, no one's taking advantage.
Dovit: You're blind!
Esti: No! Look at me! I wanted it to happen. And when we were girls...even then, it was the same. It's always been this way!

...

Ronit: I think you should leave him.
Esti: Really? And where would I go?

...

Ronit: I booked a flight. I'll be leaving tonight.
Esti [startled]: What?
Dovid: Oh. That's good. That's good.
Ronit: I hope the Hesped goes well.
Dovid: Now it will.

...

Dovid: What about you? What will you be doing?
Esti: Uh, I don't know.
Dovid: Try. Try to explain it to me.
Esti: I can't.

...

Esti: It's easier to leave, isn't it?
Ronit [after a pause]: No, it isn't.

...

Ronit [on the phone]: Hello? Dovid? No. No, she's not with me. When did you last see her? Well, she'll be back, Dovid, don't worry.

...

Dovid: I wish she'd never contacted you.
Ronit: Well, I'm glad that she did the right thing. My father died. You weren't even going to let me know.
Dovid: Can you see why I didn't? I was protecting my wife. Dovid...
[Esti walks toward them]
Esti: I want you to give me my freedom.
Dovid: Esti, come here. I was terrified.
Esti: I'm sorry. I didn't mean for you to worry. I'm pregnant.
Dovid: A child. Hashem is looking over us.
Esti: I don't think we should be together anymore.
Dovid: It's His wish.
Esti: No. I was born into this community. I had no choice. I want my child to be free to decide.
Dovid: We've waited so long for this.
Esti: Please give me my freedom.
Dovid: No, no, no...
Ronit: Dovid, you can't...
Dovid [sharply]: Stay out of it!
Ronit: I'm sorry. I can't.

...

Ronit [to Esti at the Hesped]: Why don't you come to New York? Why don't you just come to New York and be with me?

...

Dovid [at the Hesped]: Rav Krushka often spoke about the duty of the teacher. The duty...I'm sorry, I can't...The Rav's only child, Ronit Krushka, is here with us today. The Rav's final words to us...Why did he choose to discuss the idea of choice? And freedom. There's nothing so tender or truthful as the true feeling of being free. Hmm? Free to choose. The Rav was a giant of Torah. But it wasn't a giant we saw collapse that day. It was a man. He talked of the angels and of the desires of the beasts. And with his final words, he reminded us of this. We are free to choose!
[he looks up at Esti]
Dovid: You are free.
[and then to all of the others]
Dovid: I cannot accept the honor or position that is offered to me. I do not have sufficient understanding. Please forgive me.

...

Ronit: You will be a brilliant mother. You're going to be brave and beautiful. I love you. I love you. Will you tell me where you are?
Esti: Yes. I will.

...

Ronit [to the cabdriver]: Excuse me? Do you mind if we make a small detour?
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

iambiguous
ILP Legend

Posts: 27387
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: baltimore maryland

Re: philosophy in film

It can get tricky when you have kids. For example, there is how you want to raise them and there is how "society" or "the state" interjects from time to time with its laws. What are you permitted to do as a parent? What are you not permitted to do as a parent? What are you required to do as a parent?

So: Is it reasonable [or moral] to yank a child out of society and live "off the grid"? To be isolated from the rest of the world? Is that a "healthy" life for a teenager?

And what if the parent suffers from PTSD? How far is this parent permitted to go in order to escape what he [and many others] construe to be our postmodern, rat race hell hole. How far back to nature is enough?

Is there still room at all for idealism in a world that is becoming increasingly more cynical about what constitutes the "good life".

Bottom line: If you and your child see the life that you have chosen as "idyllic", is that as far as it need go? And it's not that the daughter is unaware of how the rest of us live. She takes trips into Portland with her father. It's that she simply prefers the life she lives with her father.

But then the part where one "tiny mistake" brings the whole thing crashing down. Everything changes and their thoughts and their feelings and their behaviors must reconfigure in order to deal with it.

For most of us, it is not possible to sustain a relationship that revolves entirely around the two of you. There are just too many others around who need to be taken into account. And too many possibilities for "contingency, chance and change" to push and to pull you in different directions.

How good is this film? Well, if the critics have anything to say about it, very, very good. It got a 100% Fresh rating at RT, on 195 reviews: https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/leave_no_trace/

IMDb

Once Ben Foster had signed onto the film, he and Debra Granik worked together to remove around 40% of the dialogue. This was to make the film have less exposition and feel more realistic.

In preparation for the film Ben Foster got training from a professional which included gaining wilderness appreciation, survival techniques, learning the basic fundamentals of water catchment and gray man technique which is how to disappear in public, or more importantly, how to disappear in plain sight.

According to Ben Foster, the film is as much about saying goodbye to your child or to a parent, how you do that lovingly and how you let someone go.

trivia at IMDb: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3892172/tr ... tt_trv_trv
at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leave_No_Trace_(film)
trailer: https://youtu.be/_07ktacEGo8

Leave No Trace [2018]
Written in part and directed by Debra Granik

Tom [daughter, short for Thomasin]: Dad, this wood is really good for feathering.
Will [father]: It's really nice work.

...

Tom [watching her father trying fruitlessly to start a fire]: Dad, it's been really damp....Dad. It's okay. We can use the propane.
Will: Don't waste it. We're low.
Tom: I'm hungry.

...

Tom [after her father hears a chain saw revving in the distance]: It's okay. It's a work crew. I saw them earlier. They're down by the pathways.
Will: Drill!

...

Man living in woods: "If you are a veteran who takes benzyls for PTSD, here is what you need to know." You sell them to me. Xannies. Prazosin. When was the last time that stopped a nightmare? They're all pretty much useless anyway. I haven't taken them in two years, seven months, and 28 days. Can you play your doctor any harder?
Will: I don't want to get flagged.
Man: At first they're handing them out like candy. Then they pull the leash on us. Well... Anything you get, bring it to me, I'll take it off your hands.

Will [to Tom after hearing a barking dog and men approaching]: This is not a drill.

...

Police: Stand up. Hands on the back of your head. Don't move. Anything on you that's gonna hurt me?
Will: Just the knives.
Police: You alone out here?
Will: My daughter is with me. Tom, come out. Tom, come out!

...

Jean: Can you tell me where you live? In the park? Just walk down here to me. Okay?
Jean: I know you do.
Jean: And you may be able to go with your dad. But right now we need to ask you some questions.

...

Jean: I want you to tell me a little bit about your dad. Does he drink or take pills or anything that makes him act strange? Does he have weapons here? Anything that might hurt somebody?
Tom: No.
Jean: Does he hide things?
Tom: This is where we keep our tools and important papers.

...

Girl: So, what are you doing here?
Tom: I wasn't where I was supposed to be, so they took me away. Well, they don't think I was where I was supposed to be.
Girl: Okay. Where were you?
Tom: With my dad in the park.
Girl: So you're homeless then?
Tom: No.
Girl: Why else would you be living in the woods? If you had a home, they wouldn't have brought you here.
Tom: They just don't understand that it was my home.

...

Tom: I think he's somewhere in this building. He's gonna come get me.
Girl: Tiffany, know anyone whose parents come for them?
Tiffany: No.
Girl: Me neither.

...

Jean: We don't have any record of you going to school. Who taught you how to read?
Jean: You're actually quite a bit ahead of where you need to be, but school is about social skills too, not just intellectual ones.
Tom: Can I see my dad now?

...

Psychologist: Respond true-false to each question. It's voice-activated, so you just say it right into the microphone. There's 435 questions. If you can't answer something you got three seconds, it'll beep and move on to the next statement.
Female computerized voice: Welcome. The test will begin in three seconds. I wake up rested and peaceful most mornings.
Will: True.
Voice: I enjoy reading articles on crime.
Will: False.
Voice: My day-to-day life is full of things that keep me interested.
Will: True.
Voice: I have nightmares or troubling dreams.
the machine beeps
the machine beeps
Voice: Things aren't turning out like the prophets said they would.
the machine beeps
Voice: It seems like no one understands me.
Will: False.

Of course these are the sort of questions that if you're smart enough you answer them in the way in which you think the authorities would want you to. Will stumbles here. He's got this thing about being truthful.

Tom: Yes.
Jean: I saw that the two of you share a tent. This ever made you feel uncomfortable?
Tom: No. - It's warmer with two people at night.
Tom: No.

...

Tom: We didn't need to be rescued.
Jean: Your dad needs to provide you shelter and a place to live.
Tom: He did. He does.

...

Official: In finding placement for you and Tom, we've considered what kind of support will be most helpful for the both of you.
Will: We'd like to go back to the way we were living.
Official: We have found an option. It's not the park. Um, it's kind of a special accommodation. It's pretty isolated. There would be no rules or regulations saying you can't live here because someone is saying you can.

...

Tom [after they have been "relocated"]: Everything's different now.
Will: We can still think our own thoughts.

...

Will: They said a person saw you, and that's how they found our camp.
Tom: I saw a person, but I didn't think they saw me. It was a mistake.
Will: Why didn't you say something?
Tom: I was afraid. I didn't want to leave our camp. It was such a good one.
Will: Yeah. But we stayed there too long.

...

Will: Says who?
Tom: This pamphlet. "Considering membership? There are many ways to participate... music, devotional dance, carpentry, camp prayer group, rock and roll, social media." Is that why we went?
Will: We went because Walters asked us to. You dress up, show up on Sunday, people will believe certain things about you.
Tom: Then they don't ask so many questions about our lives? Our lives before.

...

Tom: If we had a phone, I could have called you.
Will: Always been able to communicate without all that.
Tom: I think it might be easier on us if we try to adapt.
Will: We're wearing their clothes. We're in their house. We're eating their food. We're doing their work. We have adapted. The only place we can't be seen is in this house.
Tom: We can still think our own thoughts. Like you said.

...

Tom: What if the kids at school think I'm strange 'cause of the way we were living?
Will: How important are their judgments?
Tom: Guess I'll find out.

...

Jean: I wanted to drop off some paperwork for you. Um, here is the date for your appointment with housing. And I thought you could use a phone.
Jean: It's important for you to follow through so you guys can remain independent. Do you understand?

No irony intended.

Will [to Tom]: Pack your things. Don't take anything you don't need.

...

Tom [after they are back in the forest]: I liked it there. Did you even try?
Will: I did.
Tom: Huh? Dad, did you? 'Cause I can't tell.
Will: They were gonna separate us if we didn't follow their rules.
Tom: Won't they notice we're gone?
Will: If we're lucky, not till tomorrow.

...

Man [living in the park]: What are you doing here? Did you bring them with you? Since you two got burned, rangers are here all the time.
[a bulldozer destroys the camp]
Man: Stop!

...

Tom [to Will after they had hopped a train]: Why are we doing this? Dad, we shouldn't be here.

...

Will: What did that woman on the bus ask you?
Tom: Nothing. She barely even noticed me. She was doing her own thing.
[Will says nothing]
Tom: Dad, this isn't the way we used to be.
Will: Have some.
Tom: You hearing me?
Will: Drink it.

...

Tom: It's cold.
Will: We're at a higher altitude.
Tom: My fingers are stiff. You said there'd be some cabins. I really thought there would be.

...

Tom: Dad, are we gonna freeze in our sleep?
Will: No, Tom.
Tom: How do you know?

...

Tom: Do you miss the things we had at the farm?
Will: Do you? They were really never our things.

...

Dale [after Will injures himself in the forest]: Blane was a medic in the army, so he's in good hands. Was your dad in the service?
Tom: He was.
Dale: What happened out there?
Tom: We got lost.
Dale: Where were you guys headed?
Tom: I don't think we knew where we were going.
Dale: Where do you live? Where's your home?

...

Dale: Tom, if your dad is messed up with something or running from someone, I really need you to tell me, 'cause folks around here aren't looking to get mixed up in any trouble.
Tom: It's not that kind of trouble.

...

Tom: Have you ever seen inside a hive before? It's cool, huh? You put your hand over it. You can feel the warmth of the hive. A person can withstand 500 stings. Close your eyes. Open.
[bees are crawling all over her hands]
Tom: See, you don't need to be scared.

...

Tom: I want to tell you something.
Tom: I paid for this place, so we can stay here.
Will: Yeah, that was the right thing to do.
Tom [realizing he doesn't understand]: I rented this place so that we can live here.
[Tom doesn't respond]

...

Tom [seeing Will with his backpack]: What are you doing? Dad, your...your leg isn't even healed all the way. And it won't. It won't heal right. I don't want to leave. Last time you almost died. And you would have if I hadn't found you.
Will: That will never happen again.
Tom: These people, they're not that different from us.
Will: Yes, they've been very good to us, but we have to...
Tom: You! You need. Not me. The same thing that's wrong with you isn't wrong with me.
Will: I know.

...

Tom [once again back in the forest alone with Will]: Dad...
[a long pause]
Tom: I know you would stay if you could.

...

Tom [to the dog that was with them in the RV camp]: He had to go...
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

iambiguous
ILP Legend

Posts: 27387
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: baltimore maryland

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