Joker Here.

This is the place to shave off that long white beard and stop being philosophical; a forum for members to just talk like normal human beings.

Re: Joker Here.

Postby Zero_Sum » Fri Nov 15, 2019 5:57 am

iambiguous wrote:
Zero_Sum wrote: For the record Iambig, I believe the current model of society politically, socially, economically, sexually, and racially is unsustainable where it is on the verge of collapse. I of course want it to collapse because I understand nobody in positions of power currently have any political will or real solutions of reforming it better in improvement.


Again, the gist of my argument here revolves less around what you think you believe and more around how I think you have come to believe it given the assumptions I make here:

If I am always of the opinion that 1] my own values are rooted in dasein and 2] that there are no objective values "I" can reach, then every time I make one particular moral/political leap, I am admitting that I might have gone in the other direction...or that I might just as well have gone in the other direction. Then "I" begins to fracture and fragment to the point there is nothing able to actually keep it all together. At least not with respect to choosing sides morally and politically.


And from this frame of mind the conclusions I arrived at here: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=194382

So...

Mostly I am interested in the extent to which the political prejudices of others are derived either from "thought out" philosophical/political/sociological/psychological/economic etc., assessments of the human condition, or are more the embodiment of the components of my own moral/political narrative: dasein/identity, conflicting goods/value judgments, political economy/power of enforcement.

Then taking intellectual contraptions of this sort out into the world of actual conflicting behaviors in actual sets of circumstances.

Though, sure, if this does not interest someone, it is their prerogative to eschew exchanges with me here and move on to others.

Zero_Sum wrote: That doesn't mean however that I resort to moral nihilism because of all that.


Okay, but I can't avoid it because "here and now" I have thought myself into believing that it is a reasonable point of view given the manner in which I have come to assess my experiences over the years. And all I can do is to explore the manner in which others have come to choose the behaviors that seem most rational to them. How are they not "fractured and fragmented" in a No God world? How do they not see "I" in the is/ought world as a profoundly problematic existential contraption ever subject to reconfiguration in a world awash in contingency, chance and change?

Zero_Sum wrote: I believe that once the dust and fire settles the collapse of our current societies we have the opportunity to build better ones from the ground up out of the old ruins. From the ashes out with the old and in with the new.


From my frame of mind, this "new" political reality is no less entangled in the assumptions I make about "I" and "we" and "them" out in a particular world, viewed from a particular point of view derived from dasein.

Zero_Sum wrote: I also believe we can create better moral and ethical social systems as well.


Cite an example of this then. What would constitute a better moral and ethical system in regard to the conflicting goods embedded in abortion or race or homosexuality or the role of government or immigration? How would your own values here not just be political prejudices derived existentially from the particular life that you lived?

In fact, I suspect that people react negatively to my arguments here precisely because it disturbs them to imagine their own particular "I" as an existential contraption. Instead, one way or another, and all along the moral and political spectrum, they need the psychological assurance that there is in fact a "real me" able to be in sync with "the right thing to do".

Zero_Sum wrote: Still nonetheless, I believe there will be a violent devastating cataclysmic event that will transpire with this current society or civilization that will naturally have to sort itself out in a purely chaotic fashion before any of that is remotely possible in implementing. Our current societies will die viciously, violently, chaotically, brutally, and within a horrendous destructive manner because those that currently control the reins of power will not give it up willing.


Maybe. But wait until you have the responsibility of, say, raising children in this world. When their lives too are at stake. Will you indoctrinate them to believe that only your own "new world" values count? Will they become chips off the old block...or else?

One of us until death do you part?


You're caught up on the internalizations of the self so much that you almost seem to postulate there is no course of action for anybody to take because everything will only result in error and therefore there are no actions that can be justifiable to do much of anything which is of course the very reason I keep reasserting my characterization of your beliefs as one of philosophical inaction. Rather than take a leap of faith irrationally or rationally dealing with endless possibilities of random chance you would rather just deliberate doing nothing at all. Unlike you I don't suffer from these mental disabilities you possess.
"I'm sorry, but the lifestyle you've ordered that you've grown accustomed to is completely out of stock. Have a nice day! "-$$$

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Re: Joker Here.

Postby iambiguous » Fri Nov 15, 2019 8:25 pm

Zero_Sum wrote:You're caught up on the internalizations of the self so much that you almost seem to postulate there is no course of action for anybody to take because everything will only result in error and therefore there are no actions that can be justifiable to do much of anything which is of course the very reason I keep reasserting my characterization of your beliefs as one of philosophical inaction. Rather than take a leap of faith irrationally or rationally dealing with endless possibilities of random chance you would rather just deliberate doing nothing at all. Unlike you I don't suffer from these mental disabilities you possess.


Intellectual contraptions don't get much more preposterous than this.

And of course it completely avoids responding to the points I raise above. Let alone in responding to them by reconfiguring this exchange into a discussion of modern fascism as it relates to a particular context involving conflicting value judgments.

Again, you are missing a golden opportunity to expose exactly what you mean when you accuse me of "internalizing the self". How exactly does one go about doing that when discussing such things race and gender and homosexuality.

And my point does not revolve around doing nothing at all. If one interacts with others in any human community, rules of behavior are required. Folks like you merely insist these rules should revolve entirely around their own understanding of the human condition. The Satyr Syndrome let's call it. The frame of mind encompassed in my speculations regarding the "psychology of objectivism" in my signature.

Sure, go back to insisting your own political prejudices are necessarily right and that if others don't share them then theirs are necessarily wrong. Back to what I construe to be the "I am not an objectivist!" objectivist.

Unless, of course, you are just playing a character here. Provoking for its own sake?
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: Joker Here.

Postby Zero_Sum » Mon Nov 18, 2019 9:51 pm

iambiguous wrote:
Zero_Sum wrote:You're caught up on the internalizations of the self so much that you almost seem to postulate there is no course of action for anybody to take because everything will only result in error and therefore there are no actions that can be justifiable to do much of anything which is of course the very reason I keep reasserting my characterization of your beliefs as one of philosophical inaction. Rather than take a leap of faith irrationally or rationally dealing with endless possibilities of random chance you would rather just deliberate doing nothing at all. Unlike you I don't suffer from these mental disabilities you possess.


Intellectual contraptions don't get much more preposterous than this.

And of course it completely avoids responding to the points I raise above. Let alone in responding to them by reconfiguring this exchange into a discussion of modern fascism as it relates to a particular context involving conflicting value judgments.

Again, you are missing a golden opportunity to expose exactly what you mean when you accuse me of "internalizing the self". How exactly does one go about doing that when discussing such things race and gender and homosexuality.

And my point does not revolve around doing nothing at all. If one interacts with others in any human community, rules of behavior are required. Folks like you merely insist these rules should revolve entirely around their own understanding of the human condition. The Satyr Syndrome let's call it. The frame of mind encompassed in my speculations regarding the "psychology of objectivism" in my signature.

Sure, go back to insisting your own political prejudices are necessarily right and that if others don't share them then theirs are necessarily wrong. Back to what I construe to be the "I am not an objectivist!" objectivist.

Unless, of course, you are just playing a character here. Provoking for its own sake?


Iambiguous- "Water has spilled out of a cup and hit me on my hand. I wonder how this relates to dasein, is the water or cup even real? Am I even real with my sense of self? Is dasein even real? When I take a shit on a toilet, is that real? Nothing is real!"


Wow man, deep thoughts there guy. 8)
"I'm sorry, but the lifestyle you've ordered that you've grown accustomed to is completely out of stock. Have a nice day! "-$$$

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Posts: 2759
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:05 pm
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Re: Joker Here.

Postby iambiguous » Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:57 pm

Zero_Sum wrote:
iambiguous wrote:
Zero_Sum wrote:You're caught up on the internalizations of the self so much that you almost seem to postulate there is no course of action for anybody to take because everything will only result in error and therefore there are no actions that can be justifiable to do much of anything which is of course the very reason I keep reasserting my characterization of your beliefs as one of philosophical inaction. Rather than take a leap of faith irrationally or rationally dealing with endless possibilities of random chance you would rather just deliberate doing nothing at all. Unlike you I don't suffer from these mental disabilities you possess.


Intellectual contraptions don't get much more preposterous than this.

And of course it completely avoids responding to the points I raise above. Let alone in responding to them by reconfiguring this exchange into a discussion of modern fascism as it relates to a particular context involving conflicting value judgments.

Again, you are missing a golden opportunity to expose exactly what you mean when you accuse me of "internalizing the self". How exactly does one go about doing that when discussing such things race and gender and homosexuality.

And my point does not revolve around doing nothing at all. If one interacts with others in any human community, rules of behavior are required. Folks like you merely insist these rules should revolve entirely around their own understanding of the human condition. The Satyr Syndrome let's call it. The frame of mind encompassed in my speculations regarding the "psychology of objectivism" in my signature.

Sure, go back to insisting your own political prejudices are necessarily right and that if others don't share them then theirs are necessarily wrong. Back to what I construe to be the "I am not an objectivist!" objectivist.

Unless, of course, you are just playing a character here. Provoking for its own sake?


Iambiguous- "Water has spilled out of a cup and hit me on my hand. I wonder how this relates to dasein, is the water or cup even real? Am I even real with my sense of self? Is dasein even real? When I take a shit on a toilet, is that real? Nothing is real!"


Wow man, deep thoughts there guy. 8)


Note to others:

How truly pathetic is this? What do you think, have I got him on the ropes? :lol:

Besides, few things are more insufferable than an "I am not an objectivist!" objectivist trying to sound clever. :wink:
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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iambiguous
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