Abortion

[Kriswest]

Getting into some debates on facebook about abortion. So many are so willing to let god sort it out and try to defend putting children in abusive situations. They have no comprehension of numbers if abortion is banned, they claim thousands of families want to adopt all the kids, but the kids would be millions if abortion is not available. The arguments they give are based on religion and hope. Help me figure out why people want children to be abused, unloved and in an institutional system that cares nothing for them. why would they want humans raised in horrible conditions and why would you follow a god that wants this?????

[WendyDarling]

Kris wrote

Help me figure out why people want children to be abused, unloved and in an institutional system that cares nothing for them.

Idealism, not realism. Our society doesn't promote healthy, realistic follow through for our ideals. Going that extra step or twenty to help another human being is something not taught or supported by modern society.

When I was younger, I went to the abortion clinic in town to better inform the pro-lifers who would confront all women entering the clinic. Their pamphlets 'to assist' these women were about idealism, not realism. I asked them, the pro-lifers, if they were willing to tow the lifeline for the woman, be her person-to-person support for a year or so, really get involved and help her. It got real interesting when the off-duty police officer who was paid by the clinic to keep it safe joined the conversation, a male. He agreed with my idea that their time could be better spent. It's so much easier to point your finger rather than do what really needs to be done to avoid a crisis. I asked them to spend their pamphlet promoting times to provide real assistance for the woman who were struggling alone, to get involved with more than their typical shame tactics of dead fetuses on posters with baby murderer on it. Did those conversations help? Maybe, maybe I gave them some food for thought.

[Dan~]

All i see is a lot of poorly made arguments and ideas.

[Kriswest]

You are right about idealism. It is sad about education being so poor. Another issue I see is the males. They are more blindly passionate about it online. Now I do not know how bad they are face to face but they can sure make you want to punch them.
Dan~, you are right and that is a very sad thing is it not?

[Some Guy in History]

If you think things are bad now just because things are starting to come out into the open that are already there, then you fail to realize how much worse they were when hidden from sight.

Also, isn't it better that they have clinics now instead of women self-aborting with wire coathangers in some back alley or getting punched in the stomach?

And, isn't it key to scientific growth and medical breakthroughs for doctors to have a ready supply of fetal tissue to run their research on in advanced healing rather than abducting people, impregnating them while locked away and killing the babies to get at it?

When I run into women who's arguments for abortion are 'how will this effect MY life, MY LIFE, I want to go to college and get a job and this PARASITE dared to start growing in me,' and 'they don't really KNOW when life begins,' and are using it as a form of birth control instead of contraceptives because they're horny as fuck and don't like the contraceptives that kill the feeling of sex, the good answers and reasons such as society is over-populated, or, I just wouldn't be a good parent, falls to the wayside.

Abortion is murder, yes and murder is on all of our hands no matter how clean we like to think them, no matter how innocent any of us pretend to be. If they are willing to face the guilt or lack thereof of murdering a life before it's even born, what then of stillborns and spiritual possession to throw in a curveball insanity for the moment. What about the fact that every day, those that would judge abortionists kill others in their minds instead of sating their bloodlust and hate and rage. What is the difference?

[Amorphos]

To make it right, there would have to be no orphaning of children too. And big brother style cameras in bedrooms ~ to prevent abuse potential. Within the next ten years I expect security in peoples houses to be much stronger, I expect the authorities would have 3rd party access too. Bit off topic, but I was wondering what it would take to actually make a Christian society? Some genetic reprogramming is probably not out of the question.

If successful as you say, there would be an exponential population explosion, something like;
7bil X average 10 [as most survive] births = 70bil. 70bil X another average of 10 = 700bil. All in three generations.

There would inevitably have to come a point where all would agree we are overpopulated [I thought we was already?], ergo, its a question of what the reasonable amount is, and back to; what do you do to prevent more births than are required?

[Some Guy in History]

To make it right, there would have to be no orphaning of children too. And big brother style cameras in bedrooms ~ to prevent abuse potential. Within the next ten years I expect security in peoples houses to be much stronger, I expect the authorities would have 3rd party access too. Bit off topic, but I was wondering what it would take to actually make a Christian society? Some genetic reprogramming is probably not out of the question.

If successful as you say, there would be an exponential population explosion, something like;
7bil X average 10 [as most survive] births = 70bil. 70bil X another average of 10 = 700bil. All in three generations.

There would inevitably have to come a point where all would agree we are overpopulated [I thought we was already?], ergo, its a question of what the reasonable amount is, and back to; what do you do to prevent more births than are required?

We can't even get people to agree on the smaller matters and concerns, we're all under surveillance every second of every day if you believe in the supernatural and paranormal and at least a majority of the time if you believe the government capable of bugging our phones and cellphones now that we're past the days of manual operators that plug and connect people to each other and even probably have our video game stations bugged, computers, etc and yet people flipped a lid over publicly announced drones invading their privacy.

At the point of coming to a conclusion here, at any point, could you expect the rest of humanity and society to agree to it, too, fully understanding or caring about the arguments that went into it or actually enforce and reinforce it? Actually follow it? Accept reality as it is, not as you want it to be.

[Dan~]

When I run into women who's arguments for abortion are 'how will this effect MY life, MY LIFE, I want to go to college and get a job and this PARASITE dared to start growing in me,' and 'they don't really KNOW when life begins,' and are using it as a form of birth control instead of contraceptives because they're horny as fuck and don't like the contraceptives that kill the feeling of sex, the good answers and reasons such as society is over-populated, or, I just wouldn't be a good parent, falls to the wayside.

In Canada it is not as severe but women can be assholes.
They are unnatural beings.

[surreptitious57]

The terminology employed by anti abortionists is wrong. They are not pro life but pro birth. A subtle but important distinction

If you actively campaign outside abortion clinics and then go and have one yourself [ preferably in another state to avoid family
or friends finding out ] then you really should not be passing judgement from that point on about other women having abortions

How do you know that all the other women you saw in the abortion clinic are sluts? How do you know that the reason for them being there isnt also because
the condom split? But anyway arent you supposed to be against all abortion regardless of circumstance? Or does this not apply when the one having it is you?

And if you are at the other end of the spectrum and absolutely pro abortion then you can not complain when a woman wants one because the foetus is female
So whatever your take on abortion is you have to be entirely logically consistent with regard to it to avoid hypocrisy which effectively invalidates your position

[WendyDarling]

That's true, pro birth but not pro life. Thanks for clarifying that.

[Arminius]

Abortion is a criminal offence.

[Ultimate Philosophy 1001]

Reason I hate abortion is because its non-nurturing. Need more nurturing women in society.

Let's say you were born a man. But imagine for a minute, that you were born a woman. Imagine the kind of thoughts you'd be having when thinking about aborting your own baby. Are those the kind of thoughts you want to be common for women to have?

[Some Guy in History]

Reason I hate abortion is because its non-nurturing. Need more nurturing women in society.

Let's say you were born a man. But imagine for a minute, that you were born a woman. Imagine the kind of thoughts you'd be having when thinking about aborting your own baby. Are those the kind of thoughts you want to be common for women to have?

Man, you should be the change you want to see in the world. Turn yourself into an actual nurturing woman from where you are as a person in your personality and character and show people that the impossible can be made possible. Shouldn't be too hard for a stubborn and strong-willed person as yourself.

[Ultimate Philosophy 1001]

Reason I hate abortion is because its non-nurturing. Need more nurturing women in society.

Let's say you were born a man. But imagine for a minute, that you were born a woman. Imagine the kind of thoughts you'd be having when thinking about aborting your own baby. Are those the kind of thoughts you want to be common for women to have?

Man, you should be the change you want to see in the world. Turn yourself into an actual nurturing woman from where you are as a person in your personality and character and show people that the impossible can be made possible. Shouldn't be too hard for a stubborn and strong-willed person as yourself.

I said i want to be a pimp of society. I see the sexual frustration of society and i dont want men to lay in anguish over their torments. But women are difficult, pimpin' ain't easy.

[Kriswest]

At least most of the discussion here is reasonable and with intelligence this on the other hand is a reply to me on facebook:

"The Old Testament scriptures all pointed to Jesus. He loved all that God had created and knew that children in the womb were special and viable from before conception. To deny this is anti Biblical and goes completely against all that Jesus taught and the very Word of God.

Jesus was born a Jew and sinless, followed God's law, was born, taught, dies on the cross and rose on the third day in order to reconcile us to our Heaven Creator for all eternity.

The Bible teaches that human life is different from other types of life, because human beings are made in the very image of God. The Bible teaches that children are a blessing. The Bible teaches that the child in the womb is truly a human child, who even has a relationship with the Lord and repeatedly condemns the killing of the innocent. Jesus Christ paid special attention to the poor, the despised, and those whom the rest of society considered insignificant.

As Christ followers, we are to grow in our lives so that we come to resemble Him more and more each day.

God expects His people to do justice for one another. "Be merciful as your heavenly Father is merciful" (Luke 6:36). "Go and do likewise" (Luke 10:37). "Do unto others as you would have them do to you" (Matthew 7:12). "Love one another" (John 15:17).

Abortion is the opposite of these teachings. It is a reversal of justice. It is a destruction of the helpless rather than a rescue of them. If God’s people do not intervene to save those whose lives are attacked, then the people are not pleasing Him.

You want to fix the "system?" Then teach people to wait to experience the most intimate acts of love until in a committed loving marriage, blessed by God. Everyone needs to commit their lives to the One Creator. Only then will their lives, the loves of others, and this world get better"


And this is a common theme . Where is education? Faith??Belief??

[A Shieldmaiden]

Kriswest wrote:

Getting into some debates on facebook about abortion. So many are so willing to let god sort it out and try to defend putting children in abusive situations. They have no comprehension of numbers if abortion is banned, they claim thousands of families want to adopt all the kids, but the kids would be millions if abortion is not available. The arguments they give are based on religion and hope. Help me figure out why people want children to be abused, unloved and in an institutional system that cares nothing for them. why would they want humans raised in horrible conditions and why would you follow a god that wants this?????

How do women get themselves into this situation with contraception available.

I would think the more wealthy would have access to abortion and even contraception, whilst the poorest have to live out and suffer their 'mistakes', not having the means to support another human being.

Which brings me to an incident I was involved in a couple of years ago.

I happened upon a woman and her baby of about 10 months of age as I was coming out of a retail store. She told me her plight. She had been kicked out of her place of residence by her current boyfriend with nothing but the clothes on her back. The baby was a pitiful sight. I could not stand it so I drove them to a cheap store, like Kmart and bought the baby some warm clothes and a jacket. I told the staff not to exchange them if a woman came back with them, but now I think of it, she would sell them to whoever she could.

She told me someone was coming to pick up her. I gave her the clothes and I bought some food also for the baby. It was starving. We literally had a tug of war outside the store as she was adamant the baby was not going to have the clothes.

With hindsight I should have driven her to the local police station.

I sometimes, like now, think back on this and wonder about this small child, whose mother could give him but life not the quality thereof, which was so necessary for his health and happiness and at his tender age this had already been seriously impaired.

I hope he lived to tell the tale and

Why are the poor such prolific breeders?

[Pandora]

Many have children to boost their own self esteem. In other words, a child becomes a means to an end, to satisfy a personal goal. I see it happening a lot.

Recently read this disturbing article. I can't imagine why a woman would do this, and how does a woman perceive and value herself to be able to do something like this. Maybe she wants a part of her baby to live on through another person, but for me, it would be all or nothing deal (I'm not really into sharing body parts).

http://nypost.com/2017/02/21/mom-will-g ... er-organs/

[WendyDarling]

Abortion is a criminal offence.

Neglect and mental/physical abuse are criminal offences too which would place 1/3 of parents in jail/prison if the police did a child welfare sweep worldwide.

[Leyla]

Reasons which were cited for an abortion:
"A baby would change my life" 76%
"I can't afford a baby right now" 68%
"I don't want to be a single mother" 51%
"I'm not ready for such a responsibility" 31%
"I don't want other people to know of my pregnancy" 31%
"I don't feel mature enough for a child" 30%
"The fetus has a health problem" 7%
"I was a rape-victim" 1%
(Source: Family Planning Perspectives, 1988)

Killing for reasons of convenience?
How about teaching responsibility instead of promoting abortion?
And note that the number of child abuses did not decrease since the legalization of abortion.

Since the Supreme Court of Judicature legalized abortion in the USA in 1973, each year around 1.5 Million babies were aborted, that makes until now 64,5 Million killed children.
Sounds like a modern Holocaust.

[Kriswest]

Questions: if abortion is banned, will females take care of the fetus while it is in them? The results of women drinking, getting high or just eating poorly?
I find that many see a goal but not the whole .

[Leyla]

Of course the whole subject is ambivalent. I'm not for „banning“ abortion completely, but I'm against promoting it as the first and most reasonable option. Instead of teaching people how to solve problems and giving them psychological and/or financial support, they are told to "cut off" their problems, and it's sold to us as the "freedom of choice". But it all fits into the same system, for a reason: When you are currently discontended with your husband, divorce him. When a baby doesn't fit into your current plans, abort it. When life doesn't turn out as you would currently like it, kill yourself. Don't change your life, just take a pill.
Destroy the family and annihilate yourself, so „we“ don't have to do it. And there are enough stupid people in the world who believe it.

[Kriswest]

Your previous post does not state ages. I think age is crucial to such studies.

[Arminius]

Abortion is a criminal offence.

Neglect and mental/physical abuse are criminal offences too which would place 1/3 of parents in jail/prison if the police did a child welfare sweep worldwide.

That is derailing - like: "Theft is a criminal offence too." Again: Abortion is a criminal offence, a criminal act, regardless whether there are orther criminal offences, criminal acts, too.

Reasons which were cited for an abortion:
"A baby would change my life" 76%
"I can't afford a baby right now" 68%
"I don't want to be a single mother" 51%
"I'm not ready for such a responsibility" 31%
"I don't want other people to know of my pregnancy" 31%
"I don't feel mature enough for a child" 30%
"The fetus has a health problem" 7%
"I was a rape-victim" 1%
(Source: Family Planning Perspectives, 1988)

Killing for reasons of convenience?
How about teaching responsibility instead of promoting abortion?
And note that the number of child abuses did not decrease since the legalization of abortion.

Since the Supreme Court of Judicature legalized abortion in the USA in 1973, each year around 1.5 Million babies were aborted, that makes until now 64,5 Million killed children.
Sounds like a modern Holocaust.

Yes.

Of course the whole subject is ambivalent. I'm not for „banning“ abortion completely, but I'm against promoting it as the first and most reasonable option. Instead of teaching people how to solve problems and giving them psychological and/or financial support, they are told to "cut off" their problems, and it's sold to us as the "freedom of choice". But it all fits into the same system, for a reason: When you are currently discontended with your husband, divorce him. When a baby doesn't fit into your current plans, abort it. When life doesn't turn out as you would currently like it, kill yourself. Don't change your life, just take a pill.
Destroy the family and annihilate yourself, so „we“ don't have to do it. And there are enough stupid people in the world who believe it.

Nobody of them really knows what "responsibility" means and what "criminality" means. No wonder, because they are like their rulers (want them to be: weak, helpless, depressed, suicidal, dead).

Where are the posts of other male ILP members here? Are they again too weak to post here? Or do they just not exist?

[Kriswest]

I see that abuse and neglect are tied very closely to the abortion subject. What is worse a broken child that spends years in family hell or the quick death of a fetus that has no memories, no knowledge, nothing. Banning abortion will bring millions into a system not designed to cope.

[Some Guy in History]

I see that abuse and neglect are tied very closely to the abortion subject. What is worse a broken child that spends years in family hell or the quick death of a fetus that has no memories, no knowledge, nothing. Banning abortion will bring millions into a system not designed to cope.

Is abuse and neglect really the main concern here? Isn't it a vital concern to mention that lack of 'abuse', too much attention, can be far worse and far more detrimental?