How Best to Use Quotes

([i]This is my opinion, and it’s as much an explanation of how I use the

[quote]
function, as it is a expression of subjective fact of the best way to do things. And it is totally subjective; I’m in the ‘proper language is whatever works’ camp, so do you. And it’s certainly not a declaration of policy or anything like that, I haven’t run this past any other member of staff, and I’m not quite that petty.

And besides: good sense doesn’t need the imprimatur of the state. What follows is just good sense.[/i])

The best way to use

[quote]
s is not to quote an entire post and put each sentence in its own quote box and respond line by line. Writing is rarely so dense that each sentence requires a separate response. The point of a text comes out across the whole post, so separating effectively guarantees missing the broader point.

Moreover, it encourages cheap shots. Writing about every sentence is posturing, trying to brute-force the discussion by refuting every word. One-liners just aren’t a good way to express a complex point. Insults, on the other hand, are really, really simple. When one structures a response to require simple point after simple point, odds are greatly increased that one will reach for an insult to fill the quota, and greatly decreased that anything deep or interesting will be said.

Nor is the best way to use quotes to quote an entire post and then respond to the whole thing underneath. That’s totally unnecessary: the post is in the thread, copying it is redundant. Even if you want to point to a post much earlier in the the thread, a link is better; a giant text box breaks up the flow. If you’re actually responding to the entire post as a complete work, link to it. If instead you’re responding to certain ideas expressed in the post, continue reading…

The best way to use quotes is to quote specific, small portions of a post as representative of the larger idea they are used to express. They should say, “In the part where you were manipulating ideas that looked like this, …” These quotes should be a few sentences, as short as possible to capture the idea you’ll actually be addressing in the next paragraph (because, it should go without saying, you should be writing in paragraphs). These quotes function as headers for the sections of your response, to break it up into various ideas or points being discussed.

But, again, you aren’t picking these quotes apart word for word. They refer to the idea, but they need not be the entirety of what the person quoted said about the idea. If someone says “It is true that XYZ. We know this because 1) … , 2) … , 3)… .”, it is sufficient to quote “It is true that XYZ”, or even “[…] XYZ”. This makes clear the idea to which you are referring. And since the other person has helpfully labeled her arguments 1, 2, and 3, you needn’t quote them to refer to them.

This will of course be context-dependent: perhaps you want to go into depth about point 2, in which case you might be best served using an illustrative quote to mark a section where you respond to that point at length. But always respond not only to the quoted language, but to the argument to which it relates. The quoted language it only a pointer to a greater context.

Another good use is as text elements. When in a more formal work you would use a block quote, a quote box serves nicely. These kinds of quotes will be best when they quote an outside source. “As Wittgenstein had observed, [block quote]”. Such a use does not stand in for actually writing a post, just as one cannot turn in Philosophical Investigations in place of a paper on the philosophy of language. But, again, where a block quote would be useful, so too can a quote be well-used here.

This can also be useful if an earlier post, especially someone else’s earlier post, had already addressed a point being made. But take care in this latter case: it is best to presume good faith, and that entails that if a person does not see their point as in conflict with what was said before, simply repeating it will not advance the discussion. At the very least, such a use of a quote block should be followed with some elaboration of the point, to explain just why what was said earlier is responsive to or contradictory with what has been said more recently.

These two uses of the quote function, as representative of an idea and as a text element, are that function’s best uses. Indeed, in most cases I would consider these uses as the exhaustive set of good and valuable uses of the quote function. There may be rare occasions where e.g. quoting to pick apart each word is necessary (for example, in analyzing a formal proof), but these are the exception. As a rule, other uses will make your posts look sloppy and poorly thought out, and are likely to confuse and mislead what might otherwise be a good discussion.

([i]To preempt what I expect will be at least one form of response: intentionally misusing the quote function in response to this post would be boring, unless such misuse demonstrates another valuable way to use quotes.

Less boring would be pointing to what I’m sure are numerous posts where I’ve violated these rules, but the effort it would take to find them will be enough to dissuade all but the most diligent of trolls.[/i])

Damn, my first instinct was to quote the entire passage and just write ‘hi’ in response. But you pre-emptied me you sly dog.

Anyway, how’ve you been, how’s ILP been…?

Tab, back from the dead! In writing the OP, I was reminded of a similar post of yours from way, way back. I thought about trying to channel you, but realized I’m neither as charming nor as witty.

I’ve been well, and I’ll let ILP speak for itself. How have you been? Still writing?

Wow, that one took me back. Shyster, the Adlerian, psyche.

Good and bad, same as usual, you know the situation where I live, that’s kinda putting a cloud over things. Not really writing much, trying to get back into painting at the moment. Family portrait. Keep up the good work. :wink:

Ok off-topic chinwag over.

On the other hand, how relevant is this now that the Kids have taken over? :wink:

These are very common ways of responding to posts on forums and so there is zero reason why they should not apply here too

And therefore as long as they are posting within the rules members should be entirely at liberty to post exactly how they wish

As I said earlier,

Which is to say that, of course, you are right, members should be and are entirely at liberty to post as they wish. Members are free to suck at expressing themselves, look like fools, and not be taken seriously. But if a member values coming across like someone who’s posts are worth reading, that member would do well to use quotes in a thoughtful way. It is, as I say, “just good sense”.

Turd: Arch silliness, well played.

What determines the quality of a post is how informative it is and not how it is presented
So for me the clarity of language is way more important than the correct quote etiquette

Sure, but to achieve its goal of being informative, it must first be read. And also, have a reader who hasn’t already become predisposed against your ideas because you quoted 30 cm of someone’s post, and then answered with 2 cm of (however magnificent) rebuttal.

It’s like if someone posted the absolute meaning of life on the net, but the webpage it was on had like 3 feet of redirect adware, a pop-up survey, and lag-tastic auto play vids to scroll through before you got to it. Even before you got to it, you’d be either convinced the meaning of life was a Nigerian phishing scam, or that the person who discovered the meaning of life was an idiot.

These days presentation is half the battle, if not more.

Exactly. Being informative is a product of both the quality idea being expressed and the fidelity with which one expresses it. The best idea is worth nothing if it can’t be effectively put from your head into mine. Clarity of language is important, I totally agree, but if your post is a chore to get through, or if a reader makes the snap judgement that it’s not worth reading, it’s effectively the same as any failure to express your idea for lack of clarity: the idea doesn’t get passed.

And also note that at least one of my points was not just that ideas should be dressed up well, but that how you use quotes can influence the ideas you end up expressing:

I think we can agree that if someone responded to each word individually, the response would be very different from a response to each phrase, sentence, or paragraph. The level on which one chooses to engage with a post shapes the content of the response. I’d argue (and I don’t think this is controversial) that responses should be at the level of the point, argument, or idea. Using quotes well can help to structure a response that way, and not only improve presentation, but actually encourage responses that are more on point, that express ideas more responsive to what the other person is trying to say.

And I also don’t mean to overstate the case: well-used quotes are just a small part of what makes a good post. But, as you note, the practices I’m criticizing are common, and for a lot of posters this is the low-hanging fruit of better communication.