The Philosophers

This is the place to shave off that long white beard and stop being philosophical; a forum for members to just talk like normal human beings.

Moderator: MagsJ

Re: The Philosophers

Postby Jakob » Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:22 am

Pallas
Image
bowstring
bowstring
avatar

Posts : 14
Join date : 2012-07-19


PostSubject: Spinoza's Ethica, translation and interpretation Thu Jul 19, 2012 2:31 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I will start this book study at Part IV: On human bondage, or the power of affections.
For this subject is closest to the focus of philosophy of the 20th/21st century.
Step by step I will translate and offer a short commentary.
When I do not understand a passage I will formulate a question.

Legenda:

Baruch Spinoza
Pallas

---

DEFINITIONS

I. "As "good" I understand that, of which we know with certainty that it is useful to us.
II. As "evil" [bad, wrong] on the other hand that, of which we know with certainty that it obstructs us, in reach [attain] something good.

Evil is a function of good.
This means, that good and evil are not opposites.

---

III. Particular things I name "coincidental" [occurrent] in so far as we, discerning only their being, find nothing that necessitates their existence, nor necessarily precludes it.
IV. Those particular things I call "possible", in so far as we, discerning the causes that must bring them to be, do not know if they are indeed forced to bring them about.

Coincidence and possibility are functions of different degrees of ignorance.

---

V. As "contradicting affections" I will in the future understand such affections, which pull the man in different directions, even if they are of the same kind, such as lust for splendor and greed, which are both forms of Love. They are not by nature, but by coincidental circumstances contradicting.

Why are lust for splendor and greed contradicting, and if they are, why can the cause of this not be discerned with certainty?

---

VII. As the "goal", for the sake of which [the intention wherewith] we do something, I understand the drive.
VIII. As "virtue" [strength/force] and "potential" [power], I understand the same. In other words: Virtue [strength/force] is, in so far as she pertains to the man, mans being or nature itself, in so far as this possesses the potential [the power] to bring things about, which are completely obtainable from the laws of this nature.

A goal is a thing by which virtue and being are understood.

---

AXIOM

In the world of things there exists no particular thing, which can not be overpowered/surpassed by another thing that is more powerful/stronger.

Every good and evil is overpowered by the existence of the world.







---
Part of Fortune









Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Parodites
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 757
Join date : 2011-12-11


PostSubject: Re: Spinoza's Ethica, translation and interpretation Thu Aug 09, 2012 3:29 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
In the world of things there exists no particular thing, which can not be overpowered/surpassed by another thing that is more powerful/stronger.
---
I don't quite get your interpretation/commentary of this axiom.


In this axiom Spinoza is indicating that the world is a Heraclitean contest of wills. Because every particular can be overpowered by another particular the universal can only be conceived of as the possible outcome of all possible contestations. Hence the idea of God as a substance with an infinite amount of attributes.



"By God, I mean a being absolutely infinite — that is, a substance consisting in infinite attributes, of which each expresses eternal and infinite essentiality.
Explanation — I say absolutely infinite, not infinite after its kind: for, of a thing infinite only after its kind, infinite attributes may be denied; but that which is absolutely infinite, contains in its essence whatever expresses reality, and involves no negation."



To conceive of morality in a universal rather than particular sense would then necessitate a conception of the good as a theoretical configuration of these attributes, that is, as a particular organization of wills in which the structure of competing forces proves conducive to some force that is operating at the behest of a human agency. That structure is "reason" for Spinoza. Hence he says:

"Individual things are nothing but modifications of the attributes of God, or modes by which the attributes of God are expressed in a fixed and definite manner."


"A body is called finite because we always conceive another greater body. So, also, a thought is limited by another thought, but a body is not limited by thought, nor a thought by body."


When this structure is corrupted and the force which operates for the sake of the human being is oppressed by forces that are "bad," that are inconducive to him, then we have the development of his "unhappy passions," like greed, anger, etc. The Heraclitean image of the world as eternally generating and disintegrating fire is necessitated by this axiom, and the proposition of a purely immanent God of infinite attributes is necessary to uphold universal as opposed to merely particular morality.





___________
A sik þau trûðu


Nisus ait, "Dine hunc ardorem mentibus addunt,
Euryale, an sua cuique deus fit dira cupido?"

Have the gods set this ruling passion in my heart,
or does each man's furious passion become his god?
- Virgil.


It is not opium which makes me work but its absence, and in order for me to feel its absence it must
from time to time be present.-- Antonin Artaud
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Pallas
bowstring
bowstring
avatar

Posts : 14
Join date : 2012-07-19


PostSubject: Re: Spinoza's Ethica, translation and interpretation Fri Oct 14, 2016 2:17 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Pallas wrote:
I will start this book study at Part IV: On human bondage, or the power of affections.
For this subject is closest to the focus of philosophy of the 20th/21st century.
Step by step I will translate and offer a short commentary.
When I do not understand a passage I will formulate a question.

Legenda:

Baruch Spinoza
Pallas

---

DEFINITIONS


Here I will intersect.

Quote :
I. "As "good" I understand that, of which we know with certainty that it is useful to us.

Fallacy 1 -
"us"; ??? - a tautological definition around "good". "We are" defined as being the object of "good". Lol. Baruch you old Jew.

Affirmative as hell, but not philosophic enough for me!

Or... am I walking into seven ditches at once?

Quote :
Quote :
II. As "evil" [bad, wrong] on the other hand that, of which we know with certainty that it obstructs us, in reach [attain] something good.

Well how astute, Pallas. And wrong. Oppositions are functions of one another - qua opposition at least!
Evil is a function of the same thing of which good is a function; namely judgment.

"And he saw that it was good" -
Spinoza acts on faith.

And thus comes to the conclusion, as all come who act on faith, that : "it goes by itself" and "it is necessary precisely the way it is, and my will is implicit in that so it is only correct for me to will the world precisely as it is."

All good - but the catch is now - what exactly is left of the will?
Reason has eaten it all from the plate of faith.

Lol.
Faith lever had it to begin with - philosophy is not faith based. We don't "know that we know nothing" - I hate that pedantic nonsense, I hate Socrates - we simply don't know what we don't know, and we don't know to the full extent what we assume - and often what we do know is hidden from us by our society. Hencde, we have friends in books, and in music and in the gods. (the gods are their temples and the toils and tears of their men and women and the blood of their sacrifces, no supernatural element can be divine as nature is god and god does does not have a supergod above him unless he would create one - but he can't, because nature is not actually a whole and whoever 'god' is, he is fully enslaved to his own nature)

Quote :
III. Particular things I name "coincidental" [occurrent] in so far as we, discerning only their being, find nothing that necessitates their existence, nor necessarily precludes it.

Such a thing does not have "self-valuing". An arbitrary clump of waste.

But few 'things' that we can point are as formless and coincidental and unique as well as unnoticed in their appearance as to match this criterion.

Quote :
IV. Those particular things I call "possible", in so far as we, discerning the causes that must bring them to be, do not know if they are indeed forced to bring them about.

???
The causes we discern that must bring them about dont necessarily need to bring them about?
How then are they discerned?
They aren't - that is what he was hiding behind the word "possible".

'there are things, of which I haven't the faintest clue what they are, and why they are, and when they occur - but all things have their cause, and the Cause of causes is God - this I know!

exactly the same blindsidedness Einstein fell prey to!



Indeed,

"Coincidence and possibility are functions of different degrees of ignorance."

And to what lies behind this ignorance we must not necessarily, that I see, attribute the presumption "god"... yet "nature" is always accurate.

Therefore god does not equal nature.

Quote :
---

V. As "contradicting affections" I will in the future understand such affections, which pull the man in different directions, even if they are of the same kind, such as lust for splendor and greed, which are both forms of Love. They are not by nature, but by coincidental circumstances contradicting.

Juxtaposed, as all phenomena are. And all phenomena are "love" and juxtaposed - all are valuing in terms of self-valuing valuing, valuing a self into being.

Contradicting? Only in part. All contradictions form a unity against complexes that appear on the horizon simply because the cohesive power has been enhanced where symmetry-building tension is built .

The 'lust' for integrity. "Love". The will to experience the entire world in the ways of ones own nature.

Thus I question you further Baruch, my fellow Amsterdammer who has gained such renown as being beyond the religious god... and yet now I am beyond you - and I discern that you havent understood your own God...

even though, in the depths of your philosphizing, you did discover a glimmer of his eye!

Dunamis...
But why not simpy call it "the holy spirit" or "Shekina"?
What is the difference after all?

"the unspeakable motivator inside the "thing""

But I have seen that there is no such thing. There is only the very speakable! In fact, speaking itself is always the naming of this very thing.

All this is a development of my initial question:

"Why are lust for splendor and greed contradicting, and if they are, why can the cause of this not be discerned with certainty?"

Quote :
---

VII. As the "goal", for the sake of which [the intention wherewith] we do something, I understand the drive.
VIII. As "virtue" [strength/force] and "potential" [power], I understand the same. In other words: Virtue [strength/force] is, in so far as she pertains to the man, mans being or nature itself, in so far as this possesses the potential [the power] to bring things about, which are completely obtainable from the laws of this nature.

A goal is a thing by which virtue and being are understood.

For if it were not for the fixation on nature "itself" and "God", you might have made Nietzsche unnecessary - but not before going through the bloody process of ripping the laws of mans nature from the spirit that places him in a predetermined whole. After all this is precisely what mans nature can not legislate - his own 'existential necessity'. There is none. He just happens to exist, and in these terms, he can partake in several processes at once, all of which are 'wholes', and none of which are perfect.

---

Quote :
AXIOM

In the world of things there exists no particular thing, which can not be overpowered/surpassed by another thing that is more powerful/stronger.

Precisely because there is no whole, this does not follow from the nature of man.

It is possible, but not given.
It is possible that there is a supreme signifier, who, even though he is moved by all things around him, is not disturbed in his nature.


"Every good and evil is overpowered by the existence of the world."

that is just poetry, old Pallas. Very Arcane, I'll grant you that.

It reminds me of the dream I had, about the digging in the hillside, the city structure with the wooden overpasses where the books were sold by the semi-known old ladies. The sex that was in the air and not going to happen. The intimacy on the other side of the bridge. I remember it now, these weeks. What was that all about? America, I think.

See Baruch, it doesnt matter of a man attempts to grasp all that is, he still only grasps himself. You were just an arrogant little kid of a brilliant race, whose messiah complex, as all bright Jewish boys have it (as Ischa Meyer says!) compelled him to show the world what god was made of. Sheer intellectual power, that is what you impressed the goyim with. But not us! God is bigger than nature, because nature doesnt exist. Things have natures, god doesnt. God spills natures like a geysir spills droplets.

If God exists -- but what is existence anyway?

God motivates me - therefore he exists!

Try to refute that, my atheist friends.















---
Part of Fortune



Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Pallas
bowstring
bowstring
avatar

Posts : 14
Join date : 2012-07-19


PostSubject: Re: Spinoza's Ethica, translation and interpretation Fri Oct 14, 2016 2:37 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Parodites wrote:
In the world of things there exists no particular thing, which can not be overpowered/surpassed by another thing that is more powerful/stronger.
---
I don't quite get your interpretation/commentary of this axiom.

Me neither.

Quote :
In this axiom Spinoza is indicating that the world is a Heraclitean contest of wills. Because every particular can be overpowered by another particular the universal can only be conceived of as the possible outcome of all possible contestations. Hence the idea of God as a substance with an infinite amount of attributes.




"By God, I mean a being absolutely infinite — that is, a substance consisting in infinite attributes, of which each expresses eternal and infinite essentiality.
Explanation — I say absolutely infinite, not infinite after its kind: for, of a thing infinite only after its kind, infinite attributes may be denied; but that which is absolutely infinite, contains in its essence whatever expresses reality, and involves no negation."

However, the idea that there is a perfect coherence to the world contradicts the idea of Heraclitean flux.

Quote :
To conceive of morality in a universal rather than particular sense would then necessitate a conception of the good as a theoretical configuration of these attributes, that is, as a particular organization of wills in which the structure of competing forces proves conducive to some force that is operating at the behest of a human agency. That structure is "reason" for Spinoza. Hence he says:

"Individual things are nothing but modifications of the attributes of God, or modes by which the attributes of God are expressed in a fixed and definite manner."


"A body is called finite because we always conceive another greater body. So, also, a thought is limited by another thought, but a body is not limited by thought, nor a thought by body."

There is very much wrong with this, to begin with the notion of finity and infinity and the distinction between thought and body. He annoyingly presumes that we all conceive of bodies as he does. But he didnt know what was to happen int he 20th century. At least Nietzsche didn't concern himself with finity and infinity in terms of physics. It's illogical, the two are the same. Every finite thing is infinite in all the terms that 'infinity' allows. Every 'infinity' that we address is y our very addressing it infinitely finite. And that, but reversed, is why infinity applies to finite things.

Quote :
When this structure is corrupted and the force which operates for the sake of the human being is oppressed by forces that are "bad," that are inconducive to him, then we have the development of his "unhappy passions," like greed, anger, etc. The Heraclitean image of the world as eternally generating and disintegrating fire is necessitated by this axiom, and the proposition of a purely immanent God of infinite attributes is necessary to uphold universal as opposed to merely particular morality.

Which is where it goes wrong, wouldn't you say?






---
Part of Fortune
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida


PostSubject: Re: Spinoza's Ethica, translation and interpretation Fri Oct 14, 2016 10:36 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
DEFINITIONS

I. "As "good" I understand that, of which we know with certainty that it is useful to us.
II. As "evil" [bad, wrong] on the other hand that, of which we know with certainty that it obstructs us, in reach [attain] something good.

This means, that good and evil are not opposites.

Not many years ago I accepted this thought as a replacement for dualistic thinking regarding 'things in my life'. Useful/useless (to me).
Image
For behold, all acts of love and pleasure are my rituals
User avatar
Jakob
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 6100
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:23 pm
Location: look at my suit

Re: The Philosophers

Postby Jakob » Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:26 am

Pezer
builder
builder
avatar

Posts : 2190
Join date : 2011-11-15
Location : deep caverns in caves


PostSubject: Ethics of Artifice Sun Oct 25, 2015 9:27 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Woman is naturely, man is godly. Woman only understands godliness, as man only understands naturality. Man ought to strive for better immitation of God, woman ought to strive for better immitation of nature, for as either will never understand what each is imitating, the *click* that eventually sounds conquest is what counterfeiting what one reflects anyway so as to reflect it better exists for. In the same sense, if women don't up their standards men will continue to make shitty gods, and if men don't up their standards women will continue to make shitty nature, unpure reflections. Though purity is unattainable, yet the imitation in seeking accuracy is art.

This is Pezer's Ethics.
Image
For behold, all acts of love and pleasure are my rituals
User avatar
Jakob
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 6100
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:23 pm
Location: look at my suit

Re: The Philosophers

Postby Jakob » Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:29 am

Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: What is morality in the practical (Nietzschean) sense? Thu Nov 03, 2016 4:11 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Morality does a few things, one of which is to create a new plane of significance for things. An easy example is when someone wrongs you somehow (let's say a boss at work) and you take steps to correct it by talking to HR; now your boss makes some changes and tries to be a little better and might even apologize to you, they might even be sincere in the apology. All fine and good, but none of this is morality.

Morality comes in when you elevate the interaction and its resolution to a meaning and lasting significance beyond the bounds of the interaction and its resolution. You do this by, for example, continuing to feel the affront even after it has been resolved or by continuing to focus on the resolution and the rightfulness of how it was handled in a way that was adequate or not adequate; basically you force the situation and its meaning to linger beyond the situation itself. This is one function of morality. Morality activates certain meanings to new regions where they persist longer than otherwise they would.

This is both falsifying and truthful: it is faslfying because to a certain degree you must ignore the bounds of the interaction in the practical sense and you must also ignore to some degree the resolution. Statements or sentiments like "well they were wrong they should have apologized!" after the fact of the apology are examples of moral clinging that must in some way ignore the fact that the resolution took place. This has obvious psychological use but more importantly the truthful aspect of doing this falsifying of the practical dimension of the interaction/resolution is simply that in terms of the meaning of the interaction/resolution that meaning doesn't go away, but lasts for eternity in the pure timeless realm of the meaningful as such, as a Fact of significance. When you falsify something its practical dimensions and its resolution you nonetheless do this in order to pay fidelity to the eternal (outside of time) meaningfulness behind the interaction and its resolution.

This moral extension as fidelity to the Eternal of meaning is therefore a certain kind of remembering: one remembers and continues to hold as significant the meaning and fact of something long after that 'something' has ended, or even concluded satisfactorily.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: What is morality in the practical (Nietzschean) sense? Thu Nov 03, 2016 4:39 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
That's an elegant and highly effective definition.
Beyond that it is practical and itself free of moral judgment, I wouldn't say it is extremely Nietzschean, as if there is any place where N gets moral and superfluous in meaning it is in defining morality, which is why he then vomits it out, I think. Not his forte.

However I would like to address what, in this practical definition of what morality is, a Nietzschean morality is.

As is said, a morality stretches out the significant of an event beyond itself.
The significance of that event (to the selfvaluing) we may call its moral value.

So what is a moral value that stretches out beyond its own event, in a Nietzschean?

The answer is very convenient and clear: Pride.

As a Nietzschean, I have upheld this morality. When someone adds to my pride, that is ths philosophical pride I am talking about, that person acquires a value that pertains to a greater Value, namely the great signifier of morality, which is the capacity for pride.
Nietzschean pride is possibly the most comprehensive pride so far, as it extends to areas like factuality. A man like say 'turd ferguson' as boastful as he is, has no pride, in this sense, as he has no joy in addressing things factually.

When someone negatively addresses my (philosophic) Pride, that person becomes, in my psychological-emotional system, a non-entity. I take massive delight in deconstructing that entity in my mind, and seeing the weaknesses by which it hangs together. I can do this with most persons, but with someone who gives to show that he does not uphold Pride, as I do it, and is even ready to compromise it, this is what automatically begins to happen. His soul begins to disintegrate before my minds eye. If I choose to speak out, this then causes ripples of un-pride across the paradigm, ripples that touch the nerve of Nietzschean pride everywhere.

For as such, as defined as you have it, morality spreads through and lives in the world - when the code is challenged, it becomes active.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: What is morality in the practical (Nietzschean) sense? Thu Nov 03, 2016 4:53 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
The 'cause' of pride in a practical sense is pleasure, albeit a complex, and non homogenous kind.

The impulse first of all of creating pride, is a pleasure.
I am going by the definition of the OP which is the best Ive ever seen, I realize while using it.

The pleasure is created in exacerbating the sentiment about the event, and magnifying it, shaping it as a full form of consciousness - making the feeling (of in/justice) into an Idea. This is the will to power, and perhaps in its gravest, most human sense.

To create a morality in this way, by feeling something, and then allowing the feeling to become an objectifying, magnetizing, 'shaping' eternal, this is ruthless.
Most of such power comes as revenge. But it is also a revenge against oneself. As, as one feels very clearly when such a thing is allowed/pushed into being, one surrenders ones own independence to it.

As a child, a boy at least, it is near impossible to not create such morality. I would say that no man grows up without it. Thus, no man is without it. And therefore, it is wise to develop this moral-creating power toward consciousness of nature of the joy behind it; and that brings us to the sensibility of a Nietzschean morality; a moral attitude toward morality - the attitude toward morality being the same as that very morality; 'recurring affirmation' ; naked pride in value-creating.

I believe this is closely related to the concept of Evil, as it has existed among humans; a morality that has managed to own up to itself and thus separating from the body of society, 'Lucifer' separating from 'god', by drawing his entire moralizing nature into itself. This can never happen in a judgmental-rejecting human; that is not integer but conditional self-valuing, it is always psychotic and self-splitting. But in a drawing-in-affirming morality, if self-reference of the morality-creating pleasure/drive happens, the person becomes free to himself. For this state of "I am the way and the light and the truth" I have reserved the term "free will".



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida


PostSubject: Re: What is morality in the practical (Nietzschean) sense? Thu Nov 03, 2016 5:31 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Interesting connection between these two: pride and morality.

Morality: doing the right thing. As the Wicca say: harm none. I always add: without just cause. Of course we would have to define "just cause".

Pride comes in different flavors. Some people take pride in doing the wrong thing or totally selfish things at the cost of others.

I think both are Nietzschean concepts though.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: What is morality in the practical (Nietzschean) sense? Thu Nov 03, 2016 5:37 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Yes pride is connected to the self-valuing structures, so if those structures are deranged, damaged, insane or pathological then it is certainly possible for such a person to take pride in otherwise "immoral" acts.

The pride of the immoralist is probably something Nietzsche wrote about somewhere but I can't recall any specific passages.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: What is morality in the practical (Nietzschean) sense? Thu Nov 03, 2016 6:05 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fixed Cross wrote:
The 'cause' of pride in a practical sense is pleasure, albeit a complex, and non homogenous kind.

The impulse first of all of creating pride, is a pleasure.
I am going by the definition of the OP which is the best Ive ever seen, I realize while using it.

The pleasure is created in exacerbating the sentiment about the event, and magnifying it, shaping it as a full form of consciousness - making the feeling (of in/justice) into an Idea. This is the will to power, and perhaps in its gravest, most human sense.

To create a morality in this way, by feeling something, and then allowing the feeling to become an objectifying, magnetizing, 'shaping' eternal, this is ruthless.
Most of such power comes as revenge. But it is also a revenge against oneself. As, as one feels very clearly when such a thing is allowed/pushed into being, one surrenders ones own independence to it.

As a child, a boy at least, it is near impossible to not create such morality. I would say that no man grows up without it. Thus, no man is without it. And therefore, it is wise to develop this moral-creating power toward consciousness of nature of the joy behind it; and that brings us to the sensibility of a Nietzschean morality; a moral attitude toward morality - the attitude toward morality being the same as that very morality; 'recurring affirmation' ; naked pride in value-creating.

I believe this is closely related to the concept of Evil, as it has existed among humans; a morality that has managed to own up to itself and thus separating from the body of society, 'Lucifer' separating from 'god', by drawing his entire moralizing nature into itself. This can never happen in a judgmental-rejecting human; that is not integer but conditional self-valuing, it is always psychotic and self-splitting. But in a drawing-in-affirming morality, if self-reference of the morality-creating pleasure/drive happens, the person becomes free to himself. For this state of "I am the way and the light and the truth" I have reserved the term "free will".

This is fascinating how you already exploded this idea upward and outward. I agree to your observations in both posts, although I have an issue with associating "Evil" in the way you do. I'm familir with the Lucifer-freedom argument, but I don't agree with it. The reason I don't agree is because of how this argument is self-referential and closed-circular: freedom as "being free" or defining morality or immorality entirely in terms of freedom doesn't add anything new to these ideas, it simply acknowledges that a freeing has taken place. Similarly I see this logical problem with the will to power, an empty definitional circularity of defining will to power simply in terms of (more) will to power.

Philosophy isn't yet at the point of explicating the hard-real depths of meaning from which distinctions like moral/immoral truly come. But we know those depths exist even if we cannot logically specify them, thus it is important to avoid falsely reifying concepts like freedom or will to power in such ways as impose empty circular reasoning that would serve to close us off to those depths.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
WendyDarling
arrow
arrow
avatar

Posts : 341
Join date : 2016-06-18
Location : @home


PostSubject: Re: What is morality in the practical (Nietzschean) sense? Thu Nov 03, 2016 6:13 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I agree. The depths must be even though it will be tricky getting there.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: What is morality in the practical (Nietzschean) sense? Thu Nov 03, 2016 7:04 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
The other problem with the Lucifer/freedom thing (or with will to power for its own sake) is that this can be used to justify anything at all so long as you convert something into the terms of either "freedom" or "will". Want to rape puppies or murder babies or cannibalize people or institute a global fascism or become a terrorist or commit genocide or join the KKK or just pick any group or person at all and decide to murder them? Sure Lucifer/freedom and the will to power are nice ready made ideas that can easily support that. Obviously I'm not saying that the idea-constructs Lucifer/freedom or will to power would necessarily move in any ideas those directions-- I am saying that nothing about those two idea-constructs prevents or argue against any of those things, which is that I'm actually making a deeper point about how these idea-constructs, because of their self-closed form, are entirely cut off from the real contents of the individual beings (people, selves, self-valuings, etc.) who would use or make use of those idea-constructs.

Such reified structures of self-closure are simply good when they are good, and bad when they are bad, which is because they are whatever they are depending on the conditions and contents that actually determine any specified instance of them, a specified instance of conditions/contents which incidentally the idea-construct itself cannot even formulate except by blindly converting everything into a term for itself. "Quantum of power" or "quantum of freedom" for example. What is so noble about the idea-construct of Self-Valuing is that it avoids these pitfalls, because self-valuing incorporates references to the depths which outpace a self itself. Converting everything hypothetically into "values" doesn't falsify in the same way as does doing this with freedom or power. Value both indicates directly where and how it applies qua value-instance as well as leaves open space for what is not able to be correctly indicated like that.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: What is morality in the practical (Nietzschean) sense? Thu Nov 03, 2016 10:41 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Yeah we all know which route through the idea N took. He chose the easy way through "the bog" here, because it's self-contained self-referential and thus easily always defensible in terms of 'hard form logic'. Doesn't mean he was right, and in fact he only made it partly through because he stuck to a certain path. If you want to get closer to the true and deeper subjectivity mechanisms behind "morality" you're going to need to read someone like Hegel. But Nietzsche's essentially ideological approache here seems to be enough for many people, because really all they are looking for is a purely defensibly-"clear" position (I.e. something that requires no further effort and yields "certainty").



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: What is morality in the practical (Nietzschean) sense? Thu Nov 03, 2016 10:43 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
As Fixed states or implies, Nietzsche abandons his own high naturalizing philosophical project precisely at the threshold of "the moral". Likely this is because N was stuck in deeply Christian times.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: What is morality in the practical (Nietzschean) sense? Thu Nov 03, 2016 11:51 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Capable wrote:
This is fascinating how you already exploded this idea upward and outward. I agree to your observations in both posts, although I have an issue with associating "Evil" in the way you do. I'm familir with the Lucifer-freedom argument, but I don't agree with it. The reason I don't agree is because of how this argument is self-referential and closed-circular: freedom as "being free" or defining morality or immorality entirely in terms of freedom doesn't add anything new to these ideas, it simply acknowledges that a freeing has taken place. Similarly I see this logical problem with the will to power, an empty definitional circularity of defining will to power simply in terms of (more) will to power.

Philosophy isn't yet at the point of explicating the hard-real depths of meaning from which distinctions like moral/immoral truly come. But we know those depths exist even if we cannot logically specify them, thus it is important to avoid falsely reifying concepts like freedom or will to power in such ways as impose empty circular reasoning that would serve to close us off to those depths.

I agree that freedom has yet to be invented. What I gave as "Lucifer" is indeed a hollow vessel, that does not add freedom-content. It's just the affirmative morality vis a vis ones own moral ('lying', 'imagining') powers, that I just realize is pretty natural to connect to the Lucifer image. But I did not mean to make a qualitative statement.

The word "evil" to me is a weird phenomenon, I dont know what to use it for personally.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: What is morality in the practical (Nietzschean) sense? Thu Nov 03, 2016 12:07 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Capable wrote:
The other problem with the Lucifer/freedom thing (or with will to power for its own sake) is that this can be used to justify anything at all so long as you convert something into the terms of either "freedom" or "will". Want to rape puppies or murder babies or cannibalize people or institute a global fascism or become a terrorist or commit genocide or join the KKK or just pick any group or person at all and decide to murder them? Sure Lucifer/freedom and the will to power are nice ready made ideas that can easily support that. Obviously I'm not saying that the idea-constructs Lucifer/freedom or will to power would necessarily move in any ideas those directions-- I am saying that nothing about those two idea-constructs prevents or argue against any of those things, which is that I'm actually making a deeper point about how these idea-constructs, because of their self-closed form, are entirely cut off from the real contents of the individual beings (people, selves, self-valuings, etc.) who would use or make use of those idea-constructs.

Such reified structures of self-closure are simply good when they are good, and bad when they are bad, which is because they are whatever they are depending on the conditions and contents that actually determine any specified instance of them, a specified instance of conditions/contents which incidentally the idea-construct itself cannot even formulate except by blindly converting everything into a term for itself. "Quantum of power" or "quantum of freedom" for example. What is so noble about the idea-construct of Self-Valuing is that it avoids these pitfalls, because self-valuing incorporates references to the depths which outpace a self itself. Converting everything hypothetically into "values" doesn't falsify in the same way as does doing this with freedom or power. Value both indicates directly where and how it applies qua value-instance as well as leaves open space for what is not able to be correctly indicated like that.

Perhaps as a further analogy, we might speculate that the term/logic "value" as centering/substantiating Power/Freedom into the direct reference to an experiential reality, a perspective, in fact ties "Lucifer", the unconditioned and hollow "freedom for its own sake", back to "god".... lol.

I dont know.
Just an intuition of a path opening up.


"God" then of course as a kind of Earth. True Value; no doubt related to sickness/bound-ness, and all its 'antitheses' -
"freedom-as-such" is perhaps the ultimate prison. Perhaps with pure freedom, all one can do is break into Value by rape, as one is in fact not tied by/backed by any Value of oneself.

To be valued is obviously not a Luciferian aim; but it is the sole aim of "god", given by how he publishes about himself.... haha... well, all of it has been tossed out and is dirtier than trash - but a way to reappropriate "god" might be simply as a conditioner to freedom/power to concrete and verifiable Value.

I suppose this is the very way in which I address gods, or am addressed by them; as paths into life, from the void created by the modern Ideal Of Freedom (an empty placeholder, around which all effort is regulated and by which 'name'/'key' it is extracted for extraneous purposes) rather toward a center of proper human making, i.e. philosophy, which virtuously regulates effort without then extracting it from the intention that generated the effort.

"God" then is simply what we now will create; a new center of Value, a new recepticle for excess, we first envisioned it as a Totem.
It is a reference to the possibility of Absolute existence within a Relative world.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
WendyDarling
arrow
arrow
avatar

Posts : 341
Join date : 2016-06-18
Location : @home


PostSubject: Re: What is morality in the practical (Nietzschean) sense? Thu Nov 03, 2016 12:36 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Evil is the lack of any rational conscience.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
WendyDarling
arrow
arrow
avatar

Posts : 341
Join date : 2016-06-18
Location : @home


PostSubject: Re: What is morality in the practical (Nietzschean) sense? Thu Nov 03, 2016 12:40 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
FC wrote:
Perhaps with pure freedom, all one can do is break into Value by rape, as one is in fact not tied by/backed by any Value of oneself.

Pure speculation. Who has pure freedom so that we can be clued in?
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: What is morality in the practical (Nietzschean) sense? Thu Nov 03, 2016 12:46 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
There is an absolute within the subjectivity relative content-world/s, but the confusion becomes that this absolute is not absolutely inviolable or given. Logic holds that the absolute is to be the most vulnerable thing in existence.

The fact that morality cannot be perfectly-clearly explicated and often falls victim to weird paradoxes of choice and conflicting or seemingly contingent values-needs is misinterpreted to mean that morality is not "objective". Morality itself is perfectly objective. It is humans who aspire to that objectivity because human is a being created by morality, not the other way around.

But we must be clear that objective morality and the fragile absolute which pursues it does not mean that this morality is applicable universally across all values-situations, nor that the/an absolute (closely what we call "the self") should ever be taken as a given. Language matches being, which is problematic since language also helps create that being which then will work to match itself to it.

Nietzsche's mostly honest concept is the revaluation of all values. This revaluation is always taking place and is already the basis of human being; but again, we don't know how to say so. And the human world is still far too inhuman.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: What is morality in the practical (Nietzschean) sense? Thu Nov 03, 2016 2:06 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Hi-D wrote:
FC wrote:
Perhaps with pure freedom, all one can do is break into Value by rape, as one is in fact not tied by/backed by any Value of oneself.

Pure speculation. Who has pure freedom so that we can be clued in?

Well, I was of course still using it in terms of the Lucifer metaphor.

It is a purely speculative entity; this was Capable's point. It has no specific quality.
Thence "rape" ; the impersonal partaking in someones (self-)Value.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: What is morality in the practical (Nietzschean) sense? Thu Nov 03, 2016 2:09 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Myki2 wrote:
Quote :
The fact that morality cannot be perfectly-clearly explicated

In another words you have absolutly no idea what are you talking about !

Morality = Human psychological "chains" , an easy smooth nice and sweet explication that everybody can understand.

Extremely wrong, Myki.

"Explicate" does not mean "explain" like it does in French.




___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: What is morality in the practical (Nietzschean) sense? Thu Nov 03, 2016 2:18 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Capable wrote:
There is an absolute within the subjectivity relative content-world/s, but the confusion becomes that this absolute is not absolutely inviolable or given. Logic holds that the absolute is to be the most vulnerable thing in existence.

Yes, it needs to be built; life is an approximation, philosophy is a further approximation. Unfragile life like reptilian life is a consolidated distance from the absolute. Warm blood creeps closer to the absolute.

Quote :
The fact that morality cannot be perfectly-clearly explicated and often falls victim to weird paradoxes of choice and conflicting or seemingly contingent values-needs is misinterpreted to mean that morality is not "objective". Morality itself is perfectly objective. It is humans who aspire to that objectivity because human is a being created by morality, not the other way around.

But we must be clear that objective morality and the fragile absolute which pursues it does not mean that this morality is applicable universally across all values-situations, nor that the/an absolute (closely what we call "the self") should ever be taken as a given. Language matches being, which is problematic since language also helps create that being which then will work to match itself to it.

Nietzsche's mostly honest concept is the revaluation of all values. This revaluation is always taking place and is already the basis of human being; but again, we don't know how to say so. And the human world is still far too inhuman.

Do not human nature and morality coincide? It is not that one creates the other, but that one is human in as far as one is consumed in a moral process; a narrative, a Life rather than a life-form, as self-valuing. Time included; this is morality's scheme.
Hence we create objectivity, why boys like science as well as competition; Einstein just won the game that boys play; and he configured the absulute physically as purely fragile, and could not live with this.

"God doesn't play dice"

"Father, don't be such a pussy!"

He could not withstand the pure fragility of the truth; his formula is pure flexibility, and has no way of drawing the marble, or human, or tragic, or subsumed lines between the contexts it takes the center of.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: What is morality in the practical (Nietzschean) sense? Thu Nov 03, 2016 2:22 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Ah, I seem to like this definition of evil: (relatively great) consolidated distance to the Absolute.

Evil thus operates in greater uncertainty, that is to say, license.....
but also structurally fails to attain control.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: What is morality in the practical (Nietzschean) sense? Thu Nov 03, 2016 2:44 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
To me that definition ("definition of evil: (relatively great) consolidated distance to the Absolute") sounds like a definition of bravery.

Evil is indeed very hard to define clearly. We could go N's route and claim it doesn't exist. This has the benefit of needing no further explication or inquiry; the lazy-man route that soon to be banned trolls like Myki prefer.

But I am not convinced there are not deep, penetrating structural differences between what is called evil and mere ignorance, savage disregard of the content-lattice underneath salient acting self-value, or psychopathological madness (critical breakdown of consciousness/reason). In fact let's work on a hypothesis that taken together these three aspects, individually or together, are what is really meant by the word "evil".

Freedom for its own sake is clearly abandoned for being unable to speak to contents, except as retroactive justification in the form of historical revisionism. Nietzsche may have liked this. But a only one-way relationship to freedom's own contents as being qua value represents a grossly distorted form of humanity. The constellation of values-interests is powered by an emergent quality that cannot be reduced to those "self interests" but attains in emergence something greater, a rational-logical capacity that might even be called the birth of philosophy as such.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: What is morality in the practical (Nietzschean) sense? Thu Nov 03, 2016 2:56 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Hi-D wrote:
Evil is the lack of any rational conscience.

The idea that evil is fundamentally a lack is interesting and not something I can dispute yet. But I'm working on the assumption that evil has a more positivistic character as well. I'm also open to the possibility that evil is just a name for a certain kind of collection of values-self-distortions that is of course able to cling to a semblance of self-interest, as any lifeform at all does; even non-living things cling to a semblance of self-interest.

Perhaps evil is rock-(un)consciousness transposed somehow into a human mind-emulation.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: What is morality in the practical (Nietzschean) sense? Thu Nov 03, 2016 3:02 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
This was very annoying, having to delete all these posts. I was just about to warn him to stay in his thread when he had suddenly infested the place.




I am against the insertion of "rational" into the antithesis of "evil" unless most of nature is rational, which would come down to a James S Saintian definition of reason. Namely that which works so as to survive and thrive; being itself would then be reasonable, and evil a kind of exception to it. This is Biblical.

Evil as a lack is something I wont dispute but I fear it only as a positive accumulation of deranged excess.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: What is morality in the practical (Nietzschean) sense? Thu Nov 03, 2016 3:03 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Obviously we cannot discount N's contribution to properly naturalizing theory here: much of what people call "evil" is just a "bad" with which they happen to not agree, don't feel comfortable to or do not benefit from personally. But philosophers are in the business of seeking truths, not avoiding them.

We build from N and keep going.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: What is morality in the practical (Nietzschean) sense? Thu Nov 03, 2016 3:05 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
We are in agreement on all points you just raised, Fixed.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: What is morality in the practical (Nietzschean) sense? Thu Nov 03, 2016 3:05 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Nietzsche's definition of evil is very simple in fact: that which is too strong.











ixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: What is morality in the practical (Nietzschean) sense? Thu Nov 03, 2016 3:06 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Capable wrote:
Obviously we cannot discount N's contribution to properly naturalizing theory here: much of what people call "evil" is just a "bad" with which they happen to not agree, don't feel comfortable to or do not benefit from personally. But philosophers are in the business of seeking truths, not avoiding them.

We build from N and keep going.

Evilly.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: What is morality in the practical (Nietzschean) sense? Thu Nov 03, 2016 3:06 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fixed Cross wrote:
Nietzsche's definition of evil is very simple in fact: that which is too strong.

I cannot accept this definition. It is categorically indistinguishable from a definition of Good. I must push to the content-logic, into the depths.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: What is morality in the practical (Nietzschean) sense? Thu Nov 03, 2016 3:07 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Beyond good and evil thus means: where the distinction no longer applies.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: What is morality in the practical (Nietzschean) sense? Thu Nov 03, 2016 3:08 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
N was singularly polemical against (modern) Christianity. I read his comments on good and evil as almost entirely in this light.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: What is morality in the practical (Nietzschean) sense? Thu Nov 03, 2016 3:11 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Yes, we must substantiate it.
Evil is however necessarily a part of that which the good builds.

thinking-building involves evil. But it must stay clean of its logics, if these rise from a lack.
But perhaps it needs to purify the notion of it so as for it to be proper cement.
The criminal world serves usually as the specie between the layers and instruments of power, as medium, plasma.

It is not necessarily evil, at all though -

evil is however purely a qualification. Is it not?



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: What is morality in the practical (Nietzschean) sense? Thu Nov 03, 2016 3:18 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I see criminality as a working compromise between irreconcilable socio-valuational elements. I know what motivates much crime is simply "lack of self" combined with fear-pressure (peer-pressure), through which a species of compensatory will to power crowns itself.


Everything worthy of the name 'human self-valuing' is already in a certain real sense "beyond good and evil", even Biblical psyches cannot escape that. But this shouldn't be mistaken for thinking that good and evil don't exist or still hold no force and substance-meaning over human self-valuing.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: What is morality in the practical (Nietzschean) sense? Thu Nov 03, 2016 3:21 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Therefore the obvious consequent insight: much "evil" is not really evil (and much good is not really "good").

Human self-valuing rides the grooves and tectonic molecularity of irreconcilable situation-dynamics; it does this with grace and style, and joy.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: What is morality in the practical (Nietzschean) sense? Thu Nov 03, 2016 3:23 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Capable wrote:
N was singularly polemical against (modern) Christianity. I read his comments on good and evil as almost entirely in this light.

Yes, he explicates its genesis as the transition from the Hebrew particularist monotheism to the Christian Universalism;
and he 'blames' this on the genius-of-hardness of the Jews and the weakness of the people who became the Church; the eunuchs and such, 'advisors'.

What happened, for those who haven't read N, is that tje Jews, when conquered, simply intellectually decided that they had in fact won, but only in the future. This is precisely what creating a morality is; it is the action that is explained in the OP. So then they waited, and voila, some thousands years later, shakalazam - kerrpow. One jew invents banking, the next one invents the atomic bomb, the nation is restored, all's good in the hood. Morality, It works.
If you know your way around an anvil.

In the meantime, the Christians adopted the Jewish god, had him kill their ... son, king, great person, and insurrect himself in themselves - and then all sorts of manners of consequences came to co exist with one another in the soul, that was then built, out of a pure negativity consumed in itself; the god of the other ruling all through killing his son and this being the eternal good; suchly the Roman and the German and the Slav and Celt and Visigoth souls were stirred into what Parodites makes understood as the soul, as it presently lives - of which Nietzsche is an extreme consequence, but not the greatest consequence; what lies beyond Nietzsche is extra-Christian, but the West is entirely Christian, and thus so is the world. N can only be a small preserve of rare plants, on top of a Christian world; or at the heart of it, as its contradiction perhaps, its magnetizing masculine, as the Earth is thereby feminized and fertilized and finally revered as a mother - what bliss this will be for mankind, to simply know the strength of his ground, and what that means to all notions of love that have existed so far - with science, Man has access to an immense love now - but also to an absolute indifference. What separates them - perhaps evil is this very thin line itself.....



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides


Last edited by Fixed Cross on Thu Nov 03, 2016 3:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: What is morality in the practical (Nietzschean) sense? Thu Nov 03, 2016 3:26 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Another important point to examine: a question: Is non-philosophical human self-valuing capable of having upright-accurate intuitions/intimations of "good and evil"? Nietzsche would probably say no. I would say yes. I believe self-valuing as a concept proves the Yes here, by explaining how this is possible (I.e. Traditional pre-VO philosophy does not explain the genesis-cause for philosophy itself). (Although I must excerpt Parodites' philosophy from that critique.)



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: What is morality in the practical (Nietzschean) sense? Thu Nov 03, 2016 3:32 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Capable wrote:
Another important point to examine: a question: Is non-philosophical human self-valuing capable of having upright-accurate intuitions/intimations of "good and evil"? Nietzsche would probably say no. I would say yes. I believe self-valuing as a concept proves the Yes here, by explaining how this is possible (I.e. Traditional pre-VO philosophy does not explain the genesis-cause for philosophy itself). (Although I must excerpt Parodites' philosophy from that critique.)

I see it rather as pointing to a need of full particular explication of self-valuing through philosophy and then tier by tier outward through law/art distinction into science and culture - and I see us as having attained such a core of self-valuing proper, that is to say a synthesis of the phenomenon under the cognitive-tectonic Law of self-valuing - the logic qua its legislative potential which must be activated for anything other than aberration to come from any institution.

I believe the law of increase of entropy is logically identical to the law of increase of bureaucracy. They both describe a state where self-valuing is attempted without structural integrity.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: What is morality in the practical (Nietzschean) sense? Thu Nov 03, 2016 3:35 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Thus all institutions so far have been at best tragic.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: What is morality in the practical (Nietzschean) sense? Thu Nov 03, 2016 4:27 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Institutions are very weird things.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: What is morality in the practical (Nietzschean) sense? Thu Nov 03, 2016 4:33 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Precisely.

That is not necessarily bad.

If we form them in terms of weirdness, they just might work.
Image
For behold, all acts of love and pleasure are my rituals
User avatar
Jakob
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 6100
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:23 pm
Location: look at my suit

Re: The Philosophers

Postby Jakob » Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:30 am

What is morality in the practical (Nietzschean) sense? Thu Nov 03, 2016 4:45 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster





Vast Ordering
Fractal

Porous Metaphysical Superstructure
Speculative Cosmos
Chaos 2.0



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida


PostSubject: Re: What is morality in the practical (Nietzschean) sense? Thu Nov 03, 2016 11:57 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Thinking about it, I don't care much for the word/concept of "moral".

Nietzsche constantly spoke against the morality of his time - what he view as hypocritical Christian morality.

"Beyond good and evil" was a attempt to rise above this corrupt morality.

Perhaps a better concept is "value"? The values of the individual. The will to have the power to live one's life at a higher, and more free, state.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: What is morality in the practical (Nietzschean) sense? Fri Nov 04, 2016 2:01 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fixed Cross wrote:


Vast Ordering
Fractal

Porous Metaphysical Superstructure
Speculative Cosmos
Chaos 2.0

I like this. Very relaxing and calming in a mental way.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: What is morality in the practical (Nietzschean) sense? Fri Nov 04, 2016 2:03 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Institutions strip individuality from people, like stripping flesh from bone. Institutions are probably necessary, but what the fuck are they really?

Institution-ism blurs the line between self-life and work-life. "Work life balance" they call it today, usually with a good dose of cynically irony and the half smile you give to a kid who asks about Santa.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: What is morality in the practical (Nietzschean) sense? Fri Nov 04, 2016 2:25 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Activity creates what will be used by others to support their own passivity. To exist in the furnace of the threshold actively creating new things is different from existing behind the curve to chew up whatever happens to fall to earth from the active mind. This is why good writers make writing look easy-- because it only looks easy to us, the passive ones before their work. To the writer, his own work never "looks easy".

Institutions attempt to raise passivity to the level of activity. This is "transhumanism" par excellence. It is no surprise or coincidence at all how modern capitalism and business environment wants to become "trans-friendly". "Trans" is the ethos of the Corporation. Discrete individuals are not allowed to exist within it; only images of individuals are tolerated, and only just barely.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: What is morality in the practical (Nietzschean) sense? Fri Nov 04, 2016 2:48 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Capable wrote:
Activity creates what will be used by others to support their own passivity. To exist in the furnace of the threshold actively creating new things is different from existing behind the curve to chew up whatever happens to fall to earth from the active mind. This is why good writers make writing look easy-- because it only looks easy to us, the passive ones before their work. To the writer, his own work never "looks easy".

Institutions attempt to raise passivity to the level of activity. This is "transhumanism" par excellence. It is no surprise or coincidence at all how modern capitalism and business environment wants to become "trans-friendly". "Trans" is the ethos of the Corporation. Discrete individuals are not allowed to exist within it; only images of individuals are tolerated, and only just barely.

Technically institution-ism is a "mental illness", if you talk to peoole with severe schizo you see they almost always have delusions about the government, "the system", corporations, they can't handle bureaucracy at all because it affects them to the core; and many of them talk with technical jargon and business-speak quite naturally, and in inappropriate times, as a way of compensating for the deep damage that has been done to them by institutional logic.

There is some small recognition of this kind of damage, called "revictimization through system encounter". But this awareness exists mostly to help institution-ism become more friendly-seeming and subtle in its deceptions. I can't see institutions ever truly acknowledging the damage they do to people.

Analytic philosophy is the attempt to institutionalize philosophy, thus academic philosophy naturally becomes highly "analytic". This is its comfort zone. And there is no "morality" anywhere in any of this -- morality is a strictly human, which is to say objective, affair.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida


PostSubject: Re: What is morality in the practical (Nietzschean) sense? Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:07 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Capable wrote:

Institutions attempt to raise passivity to the level of activity. This is "transhumanism" par excellence. It is no surprise or coincidence at all how modern capitalism and business environment wants to become "trans-friendly". "Trans" is the ethos of the Corporation. Discrete individuals are not allowed to exist within it; only images of individuals are tolerated, and only just barely.

Hard reality, what?
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida


PostSubject: Re: What is morality in the practical (Nietzschean) sense? Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:12 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Capable wrote:
I can't see institutions ever truly acknowledging the damage they do to people.

Chuang Tzu said that about institutions in China 2400 years ago. Seems that few listened.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: What is morality in the practical (Nietzschean) sense? Fri Nov 04, 2016 3:44 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Capable wrote:
Institutions strip individuality from people, like stripping flesh from bone. Institutions are probably necessary, but what the fuck are they really?

Institution-ism blurs the line between self-life and work-life. "Work life balance" they call it today, usually with a good dose of cynically irony and the half smile you give to a kid who asks about Santa.

Yes - it is halfheartedness. The first nominal institutions were always populated by eunuchs, it seems. I think a bureaucrat is somehow the equivalent of a eunuch.


However, we can build a non bureaucratic institution- a first perhaps - taking VO as the institutional center-self-valuing and valuing designated parts of our work purely in terms of it, as we've been doing quite consciously up here of course, why we made things like the Pentad and the Tower, which emptiness is testament to its functioning, just as the Pentads sporadic action clearly pushes philosophy forth seismically. VO is capable of being an institution (it even brings about institutions entirely dedicated to discrediting it, thereby building interest in it) that serves only to create space for a philosopher to do his own bidding. So that a man like Parodites can be supported by an institution, which means that he commands that institutions standards - as with VO It is simply the highest standard that brings all others under it. It is thus not an empty placeholder but a container of an asymptotically approached absolute; the value of value, the standard of standard - these work 'magically' - that is to say as fully potentiating every intent that is addressed at it qua its logic, that is to say, properly. VO commands "standard-as-such"...

shit.


Thats hard.


And that is why I can safely let a Parodites roam the skies above me as I chop the wood for a fire, just as I can let you be a thundercloudscape as I put together an engine, or I can follow Pezers field-directions, or dance with the ultimate discord that Sauwelios creates in peoples hearts, hahaha -- that guy. He will always remain unfathomable. He truly lives with the goddesses. This is why he is so utterly undriven to be assertive; is existence itself is an assertion against all things that are around him. Generally it is accepted as a very mild, elevating, soothing, cultivating presence - no one who is in a room with Sauwelios can not like him - and he can not not suffer anyone - but online it is the opposite. He suffers no one, and no one is allowed truly close. Except I, since I have conquered with VO - but it was only when I had accidentally managed to cause him to stray onto his own path into it that I truly believed VO could rule. S understands N as Nietzsche understood himself, I think. I think also this is why he takes all these vast circular roads around the hot core - compare it to Eris' orbit. The aim is to be both the Sun and the most distant satellite. In astrology, Pluto is assigned to subterranean power ('control', 'minerals', 'sex in art', etc), Eris isnt assigned to much yet beyond being given that name - not unfittingly, as as she entered Aries, long before she was discovered, the age of global wars began - she is not far from entering Taurus now, and I am certain that this will be the time that the Earth will come to fall into actual possession of discrete groups, whoever are the most capable two and a half (meta-)parties, Rulerships, Ideologies, Values by then. (I think this number is the lock - two on equal terms qua quantum of power in their own right, and a third that is needed by both to take from the other what they need. This 'half' is the resolution of the idea of the zero, and it is thus also clear which party is gong to represent this middle; this is perhaps the same as this 'evil' or 'courage' of the consolidated distance from the absolute; the absolute freedom of Arabs as traders, the engine to their religious might, their sheer manners, standards of transaction, the awareness that wealth is in transaction) But possession is a concept that only the Chinese and the English seem to understand effectively in global terms. Why Hong Kong was the ennobling center of cold war economy. In Europe, it is the Austrians and Northern Italians. Switzerland and Germany their antipodes. Switzerland understands possession entirely locally, is the most genius selfvaluing on the planet, the oldest nation of the west and also the only one unconquered. It is host to Nestle and Cern, secret banking, (naturally they just moved to a deeper layer of secrecy when they 'gave up the secrets'- pruned the tree of wealth to grow much taller) and if there s any nation that knows it will keep forever conquering it is the Swiss. Ive been held by them for some hours on my way through, the way they carry their automatic weapons in their basically lederhosen-uniforms is just too comfortable. They also have the highest heroin addiction rate. You are either filthy rich powerborker or absolutely off the grid. Switzerland is slowly assimilating Europe to itself and using Germany as the plasma. And thats perfectly natural, because it is the center of the continent and they have bloody well earned it with their war record, and back this up with inventions like the Swiss army knife, perhaps the singular Object of this world, precisely in its phallic multifariousness () and sheer applicability. Man is a tool to create tools, said Bergson I believe, or a tool to create tools to create tools... not that I agree, but the Swiss know how to work this definition. I do not admire them. They have no culture and a filthy dialect in all their 4 languages. I admire the Austrians, who are the cultural center of the continent, and somehow merge into the Swiss in the Alps after Innsbruck... I once drove to Italy over Innsbruck and had a steak with berries and whipped cream on a mountainside terrace, and felt for the first time that I had found 'the good place' - not as in great exaltation, but as in utterly unto-itself. Happening to be quite high up and amidst brook-veined forest. Then I passed down into Italy!!!



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: What is morality in the practical (Nietzschean) sense? Fri Nov 04, 2016 4:14 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Capable wrote:
Fixed Cross wrote:


Vast Ordering
Fractal

Porous Metaphysical Superstructure
Speculative Cosmos
Chaos 2.0

I like this. Very relaxing and calming in a mental way.

I tended to slip into mushroom trips using that record.

This one is deadly clean, different trip altogether. I remember having it on a discman in a trip once (I had decided to be a french king on a walk), in a sandbox I ruined the discman, for which Sauwelios kept ridiculing me, but of which I was simply proud as I had experienced it as the perfect place for an object to come to its end - after having fulfilled the ultimate function to guide me in a trip. I've still never heard anyone to match the sheer saturation of their sound-objects. They were rumored to have been synthesizing their sounds on opium.





___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: What is morality in the practical (Nietzschean) sense? Fri Nov 04, 2016 4:32 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Sisyphus wrote:
Thinking about it, I don't care much for the word/concept of "moral".

Nietzsche constantly spoke against the morality of his time - what he view as hypocritical Christian morality.

"Beyond good and evil" was a attempt to rise above this corrupt morality.

Perhaps a better concept is "value"? The values of the individual. The will to have the power to live one's life at a higher, and more free, state.


I do find that Parodites and Capable are on to vital fleshed out notions of morality beyond what N took on himself -- we must accept that N perished even of how much he took on, his plan was never for himself to carry the entirety of his philosophy; he spent himself fully so as to become a seed. And from this seed I have grown my notion. And Ive upheld the Nietzschean notion and arrived at value ontology through that, so I wont be the one to object to your statement here certainly as coming from a Taoist I suspect a simply truthfulness behind it. Nietzsche once called Buddhism a hygiene. I do experience zen as a mental hygiene. All things are rooted in themselves, and thoughts are things. I do not create thoughts. Well Ive created one thought, value ontology, out of the void.





Morality is not created for the individual - its like is a revenge by the individual on the world that did not give him what he asked, and at best it is a decision to make what the world did not provide. Or at worst.

A healthy morality is is a standard to be attained to, rather than to be upheld. That is to say that is functions as an ideal, a form of heroism. And not as a scare of hell and a degenerating influence on the hearts of children.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: What is morality in the practical (Nietzschean) sense? Fri Nov 04, 2016 4:44 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Capable wrote:
Capable wrote:
Activity creates what will be used by others to support their own passivity. To exist in the furnace of the threshold actively creating new things is different from existing behind the curve to chew up whatever happens to fall to earth from the active mind. This is why good writers make writing look easy-- because it only looks easy to us, the passive ones before their work. To the writer, his own work never "looks easy".

Institutions attempt to raise passivity to the level of activity. This is "transhumanism" par excellence. It is no surprise or coincidence at all how modern capitalism and business environment wants to become "trans-friendly". "Trans" is the ethos of the Corporation. Discrete individuals are not allowed to exist within it; only images of individuals are tolerated, and only just barely.

Technically institution-ism is a "mental illness", if you talk to peoole with severe schizo you see they almost always have delusions about the government, "the system", corporations, they can't handle bureaucracy at all because it affects them to the core; and many of them talk with technical jargon and business-speak quite naturally, and in inappropriate times, as a way of compensating for the deep damage that has been done to them by institutional logic.

This is categorically true to my experience of such people, as well as of my own brushes with that anti-suchness.



Quote :
There is some small recognition of this kind of damage, called "revictimization through system encounter". But this awareness exists mostly to help institution-ism become more friendly-seeming and subtle in its deceptions. I can't see institutions ever truly acknowledging the damage they do to people.

Analytic philosophy is the attempt to institutionalize philosophy, thus academic philosophy naturally becomes highly "analytic". This is its comfort zone. And there is no "morality" anywhere in any of this -- morality is a strictly human, which is to say objective, affair.

Comfort-zone philosophy, armchair philosophy, institutionalism, bureaucracy, brain damage, lobotomy, Bertrand Russell, etc.
Yes, thank fully brewing up the antidote is such a god damned pleasure.




What is morality in the practical (Nietzschean) sense? View previous topic View next topic Go down
Go to page : Previous 1, 2, 3
Author Message
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida


PostSubject: Re: What is morality in the practical (Nietzschean) sense? Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:58 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fixed Cross wrote:

I do find that Parodites and Capable are on to vital fleshed out notions of morality beyond what N took on himself -- we must accept that N perished even of how much he took on, his plan was never for himself to carry the entirety of his philosophy; he spent himself fully so as to become a seed. And from this seed I have grown my notion. And Ive upheld the Nietzschean notion and arrived at value ontology through that, so I wont be the one to object to your statement here certainly as coming from a Taoist I suspect a simply truthfulness behind it. Nietzsche once called Buddhism a hygiene. I do experience zen as a mental hygiene. All things are rooted in themselves, and thoughts are things. I do not create thoughts. Well Ive created one thought, value ontology, out of the void.

Yes, Nietzsche spoke kindly of Buddhism. That actually surprised me but his logic was good.

To my knowledge he never mentioned Taoism but then there were only a couple translations while he was alive and they were only in English.

And I don't recall Nietzsche ever claiming to be a overman. His desire was to teach us how to become.

Yes, values as opposed to morals. That's because, from my perspective, values are personal whereas morals are others' demands upon us.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Arcturus Descending
arrow
arrow
avatar

Posts : 293
Join date : 2011-12-07
Location : Hovering amidst a battle of Wills


PostSubject: Re: What is morality in the practical (Nietzschean) sense? Sat Nov 05, 2016 3:19 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Capable

Quote :
Morality does a few things, one of which is to create a new plane of significance for things. An easy example is when someone wrongs you somehow (let's say a boss at work) and you take steps to correct it by talking to HR; now your boss makes some changes and tries to be a little better and might even apologize to you, they might even be sincere in the apology. All fine and good, but none of this is morality.

That's the thing about morality - it can be highly subjective and not necessarily based on what is "real".
What I would have done in this scenario is to try to speak, to communicate with my boss, to see what the real problem is and try to smooth things over rather than first going over his head to HR. That would have been the "practical" side of morality for me - aiming for mutual understanding.
Things might not be so easily resolved on either side if someone else has to make the decision regarding their business relationship.




Quote :
Morality comes in when you elevate the interaction and its resolution to a meaning and lasting significance beyond the bounds of the interaction and its resolution. You do this by, for example, continuing to feel the affront even after it has been resolved or by continuing to focus on the resolution and the rightfulness of how it was handled in a way that was adequate or not adequate; basically you force the situation and its meaning to linger beyond the situation itself. This is one function of morality. Morality activates certain meanings to new regions where they persist longer than otherwise they would.

Yes, because a third party got involved and so their probably wasn't so much of a mutual understanding and agreement afterwards.
But I think that it would also be determined by the personalities of the two involved - being able to "let go" and begin fresh.


Quote :

This moral extension as fidelity to the Eternal of meaning is therefore a certain kind of remembering: one remembers and continues to hold as significant the meaning and fact of something long after that 'something' has ended, or even concluded satisfactorily.

Some things have wonderful meaning in our lives. Holding onto these things are a part of appreciation and gratitude.
As for the negative side of remembering, we need to learn to be realistic nihilists, to let go of those memories which do not serve us but continue
to go against the grain of our emotions.



___________
Each of our lives is a part of the lengthy process of the universe gradually waking up and becoming aware of itself.


Philosophy is the childhood of the intellect, and a culture that tries to skip it will never grow up."


"If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped."

Thomas Nagel
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: What is morality in the practical (Nietzschean) sense? Sat Nov 05, 2016 4:18 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fixed Cross wrote:
Capable wrote:
Institutions strip individuality from people, like stripping flesh from bone. Institutions are probably necessary, but what the fuck are they really?

Institution-ism blurs the line between self-life and work-life. "Work life balance" they call it today, usually with a good dose of cynically irony and the half smile you give to a kid who asks about Santa.

Yes - it is halfheartedness. The first nominal institutions were always populated by eunuchs, it seems. I think a bureaucrat is somehow the equivalent of a eunuch.


However, we can build a non bureaucratic institution- a first perhaps - taking VO as the institutional center-self-valuing and valuing designated parts of our work purely in terms of it, as we've been doing quite consciously up here of course, why we made things like the Pentad and the Tower, which emptiness is testament to its functioning, just as the Pentads sporadic action clearly pushes philosophy forth seismically. VO is capable of being an institution (it even brings about institutions entirely dedicated to discrediting it, thereby building interest in it) that serves only to create space for a philosopher to do his own bidding. So that a man like Parodites can be supported by an institution, which means that he commands that institutions standards - as with VO It is simply the highest standard that brings all others under it. It is thus not an empty placeholder but a container of an asymptotically approached absolute; the value of value, the standard of standard - these work 'magically' - that is to say as fully potentiating every intent that is addressed at it qua its logic, that is to say, properly. VO commands "standard-as-such"...

shit.


Thats hard.


And that is why I can safely let a Parodites roam the skies above me as I chop the wood for a fire, just as I can let you be a thundercloudscape as I put together an engine, or I can follow Pezers field-directions, or dance with the ultimate discord that Sauwelios creates in peoples hearts, hahaha -- that guy. He will always remain unfathomable. He truly lives with the goddesses. This is why he is so utterly undriven to be assertive; is existence itself is an assertion against all things that are around him. Generally it is accepted as a very mild, elevating, soothing, cultivating presence - no one who is in a room with Sauwelios can not like him - and he can not not suffer anyone - but online it is the opposite. He suffers no one, and no one is allowed truly close. Except I, since I have conquered with VO - but it was only when I had accidentally managed to cause him to stray onto his own path into it that I truly believed VO could rule. S understands N as Nietzsche understood himself, I think. I think also this is why he takes all these vast circular roads around the hot core - compare it to Eris' orbit. The aim is to be both the Sun and the most distant satellite. In astrology, Pluto is assigned to subterranean power ('control', 'minerals', 'sex in art', etc), Eris isnt assigned to much yet beyond being given that name - not unfittingly, as as she entered Aries, long before she was discovered, the age of global wars began - she is not far from entering Taurus now, and I am certain that this will be the time that the Earth will come to fall into actual possession of discrete groups, whoever are the most capable two and a half (meta-)parties, Rulerships, Ideologies, Values by then. (I think this number is the lock - two on equal terms qua quantum of power in their own right, and a third that is needed by both to take from the other what they need. This 'half' is the resolution of the idea of the zero, and it is thus also clear which party is gong to represent this middle; this is perhaps the same as this 'evil' or 'courage' of the consolidated distance from the absolute; the absolute freedom of Arabs as traders, the engine to their religious might, their sheer manners, standards of transaction, the awareness that wealth is in transaction) But possession is a concept that only the Chinese and the English seem to understand effectively in global terms. Why Hong Kong was the ennobling center of cold war economy. In Europe, it is the Austrians and Northern Italians. Switzerland and Germany their antipodes. Switzerland understands possession entirely locally, is the most genius selfvaluing on the planet, the oldest nation of the west and also the only one unconquered. It is host to Nestle and Cern, secret banking, (naturally they just moved to a deeper layer of secrecy when they 'gave up the secrets'- pruned the tree of wealth to grow much taller) and if there s any nation that knows it will keep forever conquering it is the Swiss. Ive been held by them for some hours on my way through, the way they carry their automatic weapons in their basically lederhosen-uniforms is just too comfortable. They also have the highest heroin addiction rate. You are either filthy rich powerborker or absolutely off the grid. Switzerland is slowly assimilating Europe to itself and using Germany as the plasma. And thats perfectly natural, because it is the center of the continent and they have bloody well earned it with their war record, and back this up with inventions like the Swiss army knife, perhaps the singular Object of this world, precisely in its phallic multifariousness () and sheer applicability. Man is a tool to create tools, said Bergson I believe, or a tool to create tools to create tools... not that I agree, but the Swiss know how to work this definition. I do not admire them. They have no culture and a filthy dialect in all their 4 languages. I admire the Austrians, who are the cultural center of the continent, and somehow merge into the Swiss in the Alps after Innsbruck... I once drove to Italy over Innsbruck and had a steak with berries and whipped cream on a mountainside terrace, and felt for the first time that I had found 'the good place' - not as in great exaltation, but as in utterly unto-itself. Happening to be quite high up and amidst brook-veined forest. Then I passed down into Italy!!!

I've actually been to Innsbruck one time, great place.

I think VO describes why institutions are impossible. All the institutions that presently exist flirt with this impossibility as their repressed reality principle, always trying to overcome this limit and always failing to do so. Institutions must be inhuman qua institution, so the trick is to keep a large gap between the hard logic of the institution-ism and the human beings who staff it. This is one applicatiok I came up with for artificial intelligence, that it can take over much of the functions of staffing institutions for doing the menial work. I think we're already moving in that direction.

A single cluster of AI minds could operate even the most massive and complex institutions. But this would put a lot of peoole out of work. That's the contradiction deep in technological capitalism: "work" loses its human-ness and so is eventually to be replaced by non-humans, but by then millions of people are already employed in these heartless systems.

A family or group of friends is how I think of a VO institution. Not really an institution but a natural rank-ordering as human relationships that also mediates power-concerns. In this way your preference for mafia structures in business and politics makes sense. But there are severe detriments however we look at it, whether there is heartless inhuman bureaucracies of institutions or mafia families in charge. Trump is a little bit of return to the mafia-oriented logic, maybe this is what the inhuman institutional behemoth needs right now.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Arcturus Descending
arrow
arrow
avatar

Posts : 293
Join date : 2011-12-07
Location : Hovering amidst a battle of Wills


PostSubject: Re: What is morality in the practical (Nietzschean) sense? Sat Nov 05, 2016 4:48 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fixed Cross wrote:
That's an elegant and highly effective definition.
Beyond that it is practical and itself free of moral judgment, I wouldn't say it is extremely Nietzschean, as if there is any place where N gets moral and superfluous in meaning it is in defining morality, which is why he then vomits it out, I think. Not his forte.

However I would like to address what, in this practical definition of what morality is, a Nietzschean morality is.

As is said, a morality stretches out the significant of an event beyond itself.
The significance of that event (to the selfvaluing) we may call its moral value.

So what is a moral value that stretches out beyond its own event, in a Nietzschean?

The answer is very convenient and clear: Pride.

As a Nietzschean, I have upheld this morality. When someone adds to my pride, that is ths philosophical pride I am talking about, that person acquires a value that pertains to a greater Value, namely the great signifier of morality, which is the capacity for pride.
Nietzschean pride is possibly the most comprehensive pride so far, as it extends to areas like factuality. A man like say 'turd ferguson' as boastful as he is, has no pride, in this sense, as he has no joy in addressing things factually.

When someone negatively addresses my (philosophic) Pride, that person becomes, in my psychological-emotional system, a non-entity. I take massive delight in deconstructing that entity in my mind, and seeing the weaknesses by which it hangs together. I can do this with most persons, but with someone who gives to show that he does not uphold Pride, as I do it, and is even ready to compromise it, this is what automatically begins to happen. His soul begins to disintegrate before my minds eye. If I choose to speak out, this then causes ripples of un-pride across the paradigm, ripples that touch the nerve of Nietzschean pride everywhere.

For as such, as defined as you have it, morality spreads through and lives in the world - when the code is challenged, it becomes active.

I don't understand this, FC, though you explained it in your way.
What does pride have to do with morality?
Well, lol, actually in a sense and unfortunately often morality does seem to have a lot to do with pride, we judge what is moral by our by our own bruised egos and not by what is fair, balanced and harmonious. No sense of equanimity.
Morality has to do with one's sense of right and wrong insofar as human behavior goes and upholding that.
I may be wrong ~~ I'm not really that much of a philosopher lol ~~ but your sense of what pride here seems to translate to me as ego or your own personal sense of identity. Who can take that away from us? Though at times it might be a good thing when our sense of identity is taken away and we can gain a "truer" sense of who we "really" are.
What part does pride play where morality goes being that it has in human history lead to many downfalls ~~ for example Hitler's sense of pride in Germany and in himself. What destruction did that lead to?!!!!

But I may be misunderstanding what you're saying here.

Quote :
when the code is challenged, it becomes active

Does it become challenged out of a sense of pride, because of Pride, or as a result of seeing the necessity of responding for the greater good?
The "greater good" is not usually what is about our own self interest.


Something just seems to be out of tune here. scratch



___________
Each of our lives is a part of the lengthy process of the universe gradually waking up and becoming aware of itself.


Philosophy is the childhood of the intellect, and a culture that tries to skip it will never grow up."


"If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped."

Thomas Nagel
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: What is morality in the practical (Nietzschean) sense? Sat Nov 05, 2016 5:12 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Arcturus Descending wrote:
I don't understand this, FC, though you explained it in your way.
What does pride have to do with morality?
Morality has to do with one's sense of right and wrong insofar as human behavior goes and upholding that.
I may be wrong ~~ I'm not really that much of a philosopher lol ~~ but your sense of what pride here seems to translate to me as ego or your own personal sense of identity. Who can take that away from us? Though at times it might be a good thing when our sense of identity is taken away and we can gain a "truer" sense of who we "really" are.
What part does pride play where morality goes being that it has in human history lead to many downfalls ~~ for example Hitler's sense of pride in Germany and in himself. What destruction did that lead to?!!!!

Are you saying pride is bad? Ive never heard that in my life, that someone thought that.

I know my mother was proud of me when she got me. Im pretty glad she didnt consider that a sin, or compared herself to Hitler, just because she was proud of her baby!!!

What are you thinking? Pride is bad?

There can be no love without pride. Love is always a very powerful form of pride. We are proud both of who we love, and of our love. The ability to love is probably the greatest pride, as well as reason for pride in the cosmos.
Did you not feel pride whenever you were in love, or loved a child or animal? Do you not love yourself when you are proud of a generous thing you did that helped some one to put his life back on track?

What of the Jews that refused to bow to Hitler out of pride? What of Churchill who was too pride to compromise with Hitler?
What of the black slaves that set themselves free, because they were too proud to be chained?

Pride is the essential ingredient to human dignity.
Hitler rose because the English and French were one week from splitting up Germany. They tried to work with reality without considering the phenomenon pride. So they created nazism.

Quote :
Quote :
when the code is challenged, it becomes active

Does it become challenged out of a sense of pride, because of Pride, or as a result of seeing the necessity of responding for the greater good?

How would you define "greater good" if you have nothing to be proud of?

Quote :
The "greater good" is not usually what is about our own self interest.

What? How is the greater good not per definition in ones self interest?

Youve basically defined "good" as "bad" for yourself here, Arc.
Timer to look at yourself. Something is awry.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: What is morality in the practical (Nietzschean) sense? Sat Nov 05, 2016 5:35 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Capable wrote:

I've actually been to Innsbruck one time, great place.

Nice.
Just now a German song sets in in this breakfast place.

Quote :
I think VO describes why institutions are impossible. All the institutions that presently exist flirt with this impossibility as their repressed reality principle, always trying to overcome this limit and always failing to do so. Institutions must be inhuman qua institution, so the trick is to keep a large gap between the hard logic of the institution-ism and the human beings who staff it. This is one applicatiok I came up with for artificial intelligence, that it can take over much of the functions of staffing institutions for doing the menial work. I think we're already moving in that direction.

In as far as institutions have existed, I do believe this is all true, and this interestingly frames AI as a possibility of making imperfection work 'as such' - I dont know let me think more on this

Id like to know more about AI.

Quote :
A single cluster of AI minds could operate even the most massive and complex institutions. But this would put a lot of peoole out of work. That's the contradiction deep in technological capitalism: "work" loses its human-ness and so is eventually to be replaced by non-humans, but by then millions of people are already employed in these heartless systems.

Yes but I do think it is better to sit at home than to do the type of bureaucratic work that comes out of the pure excess of institution. That list of symptoms you posted somewhere was pretty fucking accurate.

Quote :
A family or group of friends is how I think of a VO institution. Not really an institution but a natural rank-ordering as human relationships that also mediates power-concerns. In this way your preference for mafia structures in business and politics makes sense. But there are severe detriments however we look at it, whether there is heartless inhuman bureaucracies of institutions or mafia families in charge. Trump is a little bit of return to the mafia-oriented logic, maybe this is what the inhuman institutional behemoth needs right now.

Thanks for reminding me, after I wrote that post yesterday I wanted to add that VO builds an institution that 'takes on the wings of its most respected members'. Thus, it is the ultimate 'democracy', because it is not representative; rather it makes democracy and meritocracy equal.

Whether or not such an institution merits or becomes a base mafia like coercion system, depends I would say entirely on the 'ingredients' - the people involved -- thus for the US things are looking good in such terms, as well as for the world at large. A philosophic institution had to wait with coming into being, quite logically, until global communication was fleshed out.








___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida


PostSubject: Re: What is morality in the practical (Nietzschean) sense? Sat Nov 05, 2016 7:36 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Pride and ego are twins. They both are subject to the same faults and strengths.

Or better perhaps, pride is rooted in ego. Ego is noun and pride is verb.

But still, our pride and ego must reflect reality else we are living in illusion and delusion. That would be contra Nietzsche.

Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: What is morality in the practical (Nietzschean) sense? Sat Nov 05, 2016 8:26 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Ego is the lack of pride. It is the lack of power to nurture oneself by benefiting ones environment.




___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: What is morality in the practical (Nietzschean) sense? Sat Nov 05, 2016 8:31 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Ego is fear of inner confrontation. Ego is the shell, that rejects experience, and research, and empirical reality, and all powerful things, because it prefers to remain in shallow understanding.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida


PostSubject: Re: What is morality in the practical (Nietzschean) sense? Sat Nov 05, 2016 8:33 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
We will need to agree to disagree on these two concepts.

Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: What is morality in the practical (Nietzschean) sense? Sat Nov 05, 2016 1:03 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
If Im fully philosophical, I must say that I dont even believe that "ego" exists.

I use the word to indicate some stuff but it's a silly notion to me the way people use it, as if there is a separate I from the I... it's all just words.

We just are. We self-value. Some people like to be generous and creative, others are pieces of shit, that does not mean that the second group has 'bigger ego'. It just means they have no values and thus are themselves of no value.




___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: What is morality in the practical (Nietzschean) sense? Sat Nov 05, 2016 2:04 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Ego does exist, I believe, in a Freudian sense as opposite to superego and id, namely as translating these to each other in s compromise. But I agree that ego is the opposite of pride.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: What is morality in the practical (Nietzschean) sense? Sat Nov 05, 2016 4:40 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Yes, the Freudian system is pretty elegant and goes a long way in justifying the concept.

I was going to say that if it is the opposite of pride it surely exists... but then - ha. I will shut up now though, as the great Omega rises only when it does.

It's a word foremost, and it refers to a valuable existent in terms of Freudian analysis.

The word literally means "I", in that sense it also exists. We can say it, and it will make sense to a Roman.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida


PostSubject: Re: What is morality in the practical (Nietzschean) sense? Sat Nov 05, 2016 11:29 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fixed Cross wrote:
If Im fully philosophical, I must say that I dont even believe that "ego" exists.

I use the word to indicate some stuff but it's a silly notion to me the way people use it, as if there is a separate I from the I... it's all just words.

We just are. We self-value. Some people like to be generous and creative, others are pieces of shit, that does not mean that the second group has 'bigger ego'. It just means they have no values and thus are themselves of no value.


Now this I can agree with. "Ego" is not a thing - it is a mental concept. It's really just another way of trying to define an individual.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Arcturus Descending
arrow
arrow
avatar

Posts : 293
Join date : 2011-12-07
Location : Hovering amidst a battle of Wills


PostSubject: Re: What is morality in the practical (Nietzschean) sense? Mon Nov 07, 2016 4:03 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
FC

Quote :
Are you saying pride is bad? Ive never heard that in my life, that someone thought that.

No, I'm not saying that at all. What I am speaking about here is a false kind of pride or vanity which can border on narcissism. I'm speaking about ego, not the kind which adds to our self esteem but to our "false" self, the one which is highly egoistical.
There is a good pride which we we're capable of feelings/experiencing due to our achievements, et cetera, but when that goes overboard than it transcends the good kind of pride.



Quote :
I know my mother was proud of me when she got me. Im pretty glad she didnt consider that a sin, or compared herself to Hitler, just because she was proud of her baby!!!

lol That's a bit absurd, don't you think? I'm sure that based on your achievements, your mother does have a lot to be proud of.
I mentioned Hitler because of the Pride which he bore, the destructive chauvinism - look where it go the world. But we managed to stifle that nazi pig.



Quote :
What are you thinking? Pride is bad?

No, as I said above. Saying pride is bad is like saying "Life is suffering" to me.
It has to be looked on all sides.


Quote :
There can be no love without pride. Love is always a very powerful form of pride. We are proud both of who we love, and of our love. .

So, are you saying that your mother would stop loving you, or anyone who loved you, would stop loving you if they stopped being proud of you?

Quote :
The ability to love is probably the greatest pride, as well as reason for pride in the cosmos

scratch I don't understand this, FC, but maybe it's just me. Why do you bring pride into so much?
I would rather use the word gratitude and appreciation. To be able to love someone fills me with both G&A as does to be able to be loved in return.
I'm not the philosopher which you are so maybe in philosophical circles, your above quote could be understood but I don't get it. Doesn't mean you're wrong that I don't get it.


Quote :
Did you not feel pride whenever you were in love, or loved a child or animal? Do you not love yourself when you are proud of a generous thing you did that helped some one to put his life back on track?

Do me a favor and express for me how this "pride" you're speaking about is experienced by you?
Again, I felt/feel more gratitude and appreciation.
Do I feel pride in my son and daughter when they've achieved things? Yes of course I do - again it's a deep sense of gratitude and appreciation and respect for them as human beings. But the love I have for them also retains the pride I feel in them even when I realize that they have their limitations.


Quote :
What of the Jews that refused to bow to Hitler out of pride? What of Churchill who was too pride to compromise with Hitler?

I may be wrong but could that be considered to be "pride" or a deeper sense of self, of who they are/were as Jews and their heritage. Okay, perhaps there is pride within that but I am/was still speaking of the pride which is vanity - for instance, the pride which allows men to think of their selves as God because they are philosophers. Isn't that vanity?

Quote :
What of the black slaves that set themselves free, because they were too proud to be chained?
Same as I said above. A deeper sense of self, who they are/were, despite how they were treated and despite how they were thought of.

Quote :
Pride is the essential ingredient to human dignity.

If you're using Pride to denote a "real" self respect and a "true" sense of self, then yes, I agree with this.
But everything needs to balance itself out. Like Yeats in my signature said "Balance all, call all to mind" though he was speaking of something a bit different at the time.




Quote :
How would you define "greater good" if you have nothing to be proud of?

Does the greater good depend on "pride" though or as something held to be valued and precious? Can we use the word "pride" in that sense"
I think that the word PRIDE has to be looked at in terms of reality, not just subjective thinking - and also in terms of degrees.


Quote :
The "greater good" is not usually what is about our own self interest.


What? How is the greater good not per definition in ones self interest?


Okay, I'll grant you that the greater good could also ALLOW for OUR own self interest but that is not always the higher motivation.
A man enlists and goes off to war knowing that he might not come back. He knows that freedom and liberty, fighting evil is the greater/greatest good.
Is his own self-interest paramount in making this decision, FC? No,it isn't.
There are times when we realize that sacrifices have to be made. It isn't always in our own self interest BUT it is for the greater good of all.



Quote :
Youve basically defined "good" as "bad" for yourself here, Arc.

No, I haven't FC. There have to be distinctions made. These kind of discussions are not simply black and white. Didn't Nietzsche say that things need to be turned inside out and upside down and perhaps in more different ways than that. I just don't like simple answers that haven't been looked at.
Everything you say can be seen in another way.



Quote :
Timer to look at yourself. Something is awry.
You put that in because I said that something seems to be out of tune. geek
Believe it or not, I do a lot of introspection. I'm quite aware that at times thins are awry. Are you?[/quote]



___________
Each of our lives is a part of the lengthy process of the universe gradually waking up and becoming aware of itself.


Philosophy is the childhood of the intellect, and a culture that tries to skip it will never grow up."


"If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped."

Thomas Nagel


Last edited by Arcturus Descending on Wed Nov 09, 2016 3:51 am; edited 2 times in total
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Arcturus Descending
Image
arrow
arrow
avatar

Posts : 293
Join date : 2011-12-07
Location : Hovering amidst a battle of Wills


PostSubject: Re: What is morality in the practical (Nietzschean) sense? Mon Nov 07, 2016 4:18 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Capable wrote:
Ego does exist, I believe, in a Freudian sense as opposite to superego and id, namely as translating these to each other in s compromise. But I agree that ego is the opposite of pride.

Ego isn't the opposite of pride. A false ego is the opposite of a true sense of self-respect, self-identity.
Then of course, there is the conscious self, the ego.

Obviously we have an ego. If we didn't, it would be difficult for us to survive and to have a sense of self-preservation. Ego is only part of our greater self, you might call it Self. It's like a facet on a diamond, one facet.\
Words need to be clarified and to be dived into.


Quote :
But I agree that ego is the opposite of pride

I believe that what you may have been trying to say is that an egoistical attitude may not be based on a true sense of pride. Usually, the former is based on lower self-esteem that is repressed and not wanted to be looked at.



___________
Each of our lives is a part of the lengthy process of the universe gradually waking up and becoming aware of itself.
Image
For behold, all acts of love and pleasure are my rituals
User avatar
Jakob
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 6100
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:23 pm
Location: look at my suit

Re: The Philosophers

Postby Jakob » Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:35 am

Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: The great life Fri Oct 23, 2015 9:04 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Because none are born a god, the great life is always a large part imprisonment; greatness must stand against something other than great to exist, also within a great human. The battle is a life only if the monster is strong enough, says the philosopher, and goes deeper into the cave as the scientist and the mystic halt. The Greek myth describe what he finds there. And out of this comes a society, so splendorous as the flower of time itself, so that its seedlings fill the web of time and time becomes green, lush, full of world an wonder and here, now, are we reflecting on this in the pearl of a fish eyed orblet of dew, only that, like dew in a field. Or are we the boot that mashes the blades of grass and steps on the ladybug? Or perhaps the lightning holding its breath above in the dense purple clouds? Or the tendon hewn out of marble, from which another orblet rolls into infinity, why have they made our consciousnesses so deep as to be able to think of such trivial things...



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Drops_Of_Jupiter
bowstring
bowstring


Posts : 32
Join date : 2017-02-03
Age : 57
Location : Columbus, Ohio USA


PostSubject: Re: The great life Fri Feb 03, 2017 8:32 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I am not a god???? Well, I feel and believe I have certain god-like qualities. smile

Parts of all life can be viewed as imprisonment. However, life is how its viewed and few are incarcerated. Confined time is a negative and I choose to see more of freedoms (positives).

The consciousness is like everything.... it needs hard work to be able to maximize but it also needs trivial things to rest and amuse itself!

Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail https://www.facebook.com/debbie.styers
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: The great life Fri Feb 03, 2017 8:58 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Freedoms could be considered negatives, as they arent necessities, not positive givens.
Many today are changed by their freedom.

A code, a binding word, can be liberating for the action radius.

The burden of choice.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida


PostSubject: Re: The great life Fri Feb 03, 2017 1:30 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fixed Cross wrote:


The burden of choice.

But also an opportunity to excel.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Drops_Of_Jupiter
bowstring
bowstring


Posts : 32
Join date : 2017-02-03
Age : 57
Location : Columbus, Ohio USA


PostSubject: Re: The great life Fri Feb 03, 2017 1:41 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Is choice really a burden? I believe choice is about accepting responsibility. I agree that sometimes it is not pleasant - this is where forgiveness of oneself comes in. We simply make the best decisions that we can at the time and move forward. Hindsight, further learning and growing often show us, our errors. Live and learn (and forgive yourself).

Isn't the term "burden of choice" like saying life is a burden? I totally revel in life!! No burdens here...








Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Highest political ethics Tue Dec 13, 2016 7:54 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
The highest political ethics would be one based on the ground-value of self-determination. Self-determination should be the bedrock principle applied to the individual person, and to the nation itself. So in other words, any derivative values or principles should not be allowed to violate the basic principle-value of the self-determination of individuals and nations.

What would be the political character that develops upon such a political ethics?




___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Arcturus Descending
arrow
arrow
avatar

Posts : 293
Join date : 2011-12-07
Location : Hovering amidst a battle of Wills


PostSubject: Re: Highest political ethics Wed Dec 14, 2016 3:40 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Capable wrote:
The highest political ethics would be one based on the ground-value of self-determination. Self-determination should be the bedrock principle applied to the individual person, and to the nation itself. So in other words, any derivative values or principles should not be allowed to violate the basic principle-value of the self-determination of individuals and nations.

What would be the political character that develops upon such a political ethics?


I may not be understanding what you mean here by political ethics and I am not politically inclined but this calls to mind the Nazi regime and the destruction of millions of Jewish lives. The Nazis as a collective and as individuals were self-determined. Where were their ethics when it came to all of those lives even though one can say that they were highly self determined?

On the other hand, the allies joining forces and coming in and defeating the Nazi's were also highly self-determined in destroying that great evil - and yes, it was a great evil.


http://scholar.harvard.edu/files/dft/fi ... _10-11.pdf

Ethics requires political leaders to avoid harming the innocent,
but it may also obligate them to sacrifice innocent lives for the good of the nation. A
President may be morally obligated to order military action even while foreseeing
that civilians will be killed. (The question of immoral means arises even if the war
itself is just: See JUST WAR THEORY).

Interesting reading.

....

Hmmm... I suppose you meant the phrase in a much more broader scope...

Wouldn't a humane sense of consciousness and responsibility toward doing the least amount of harm toward the greater good " pawn self-determination"?




___________
Each of our lives is a part of the lengthy process of the universe gradually waking up and becoming aware of itself.


Philosophy is the childhood of the intellect, and a culture that tries to skip it will never grow up."


"If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped."

Thomas Nagel
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: Highest political ethics Wed Dec 14, 2016 6:25 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Capable wrote:
The highest political ethics would be one based on the ground-value of self-determination. Self-determination should be the bedrock principle applied to the individual person, and to the nation itself. So in other words, any derivative values or principles should not be allowed to violate the basic principle-value of the self-determination of individuals and nations.

What would be the political character that develops upon such a political ethics?


Ive been pondering this post for a day.

This morning I decide the best term here is the old one: Constitutionalism

Trumps idea of for every new regulation, eliminating two old ones, appears very wise, with respect to Constitutionalism.


The Constitution appears as having been designed to facilitate selfdetermination on individual, as well as state level.

The 9th Amendment appears the logical center piece of the legislation as a guarantee that the document is used for the purpose it was created for - to minimize unself-determination.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: Highest political ethics Wed Dec 14, 2016 6:48 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Yes I agree, and as the ontic entities condense more around themselves in terms of self-determination we can expect to see an increase in... pride. Self-pride and national pride, in the joy that comes with being and having oneself, which is the basic logic of self-valuing.

The US Constitution was the first of its kind in human history. We should never forget this. Napoleon fucked up France's chance to be the US of Europe, basically, when their own constitution failed because of him. Perhaps the US and even the world has the restraint of a single man to thank: George Washington, who the Americans people wanted to make a king, and that would have been the end of it, but he said no.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: Highest political ethics Wed Dec 14, 2016 11:36 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Capable wrote:
Yes I agree, and as the ontic entities condense more around themselves in terms of self-determination we can expect to see an increase in... pride. Self-pride and national pride, in the joy that comes with being and having oneself, which is the basic logic of self-valuing.

The US Constitution was the first of its kind in human history. We should never forget this. Napoleon fucked up France's chance to be the US of Europe, basically, when their own constitution failed because of him. Perhaps the US and even the world has the restraint of a single man to thank: George Washington, who the Americans people wanted to make a king, and that would have been the end of it, but he said no.

Wait, thats fascinating. Did that first constitution before Napoleon did with it what he did, suffice in value-logical terms?

Can you locate the text?

Because right now I think that France needs to become the center of Europe, not morally, but by real necessity, as in there is no other possibility.
Germany cant rule. They keep on dreadfully failing. France is the center of Europe in the sense that it is where everyone goes to feel good, its the most popular country and the oldest, and it used to harbor more than half of the European population. It is stunning, noble to the very tendons of the heart, and it has the will to govern from the sort of lofty withdrawn pride that simply knows the poor will come to it in honest wonder.


France need to start building immense bridges close to the German border. They need to show clearly who is able to build and who is not. Germans have never built anything notable at all. Their country has literally no memorable buildings. Berlin is an architectonic wasteland, but so are all their cities. Frankfurt
has foreign architect from the looks of it but it is nothingness anyway.

One street in any given town of France has more culture to it than Germany as a whole.
The beauty of Germany is its savageness.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: Highest political ethics Wed Dec 14, 2016 1:30 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
It's something I remember reading, that the French tried to follow America's example by drafting their own Constitution, which they did, but ultimately Napoleon basically did what he wanted after he declared himself Emperor. Ours was in 1787, theirs was in 1791 I guess, four years later. I'm no expert on this history, but I am sure there is plenty online to be found... I found this on history-world.org,


"The Downfall of RobespierreFinally the enemies of the Revolution at home and abroad seemed to be suppressed. Only Great Britain and Austria continued the war. The people were tired of the Terror. When Robespierre showed no signs of stopping the bloodshed, the rest of the Convention took matters into their own hands. Danton had predicted: "Robespierre will follow me; I drag down Robespierre." Robespierre was arrested and sent to the guillotine on July 28, 1794. People then and afterward blamed him for all the horrors of the Reign of Terror, but much of the blame as well as the credit for it belonged to others.More moderate men now governed France. The Convention wrote another constitution--the third since 1789 and the second to be put into operation-- then prepared to dissolve. A mob protested against two thirds of the new assemblies being drawn from the hated Convention. A young artillery officer, Napoleon Bonaparte, protected the new government. He was then practically unknown.The new government, the Directory, proved unable to meet the problems within disorganized France. The glory of foreign victories won under the Directory was due to Bonaparte. On Nov. 9, 1799, he helped overthrow the Directory and replaced it with a Consulate of three members. He was the first consul and actual ruler of France. In 1804 he discarded pretense and called himself "Napoleon I, Emperor of the French." Liberty was gone. Napoleon himself declared: "Liberty is a necessity felt only by a not very numerous class. It can therefore be restricted with impunity. Equality on the other hand pleases the multitude." Few events have so powerfully influenced the political and economic development of the modern world as the French Revolution." --http://history-world.org/french_revolution.htm


Yeah it would be really interesting to read the original French Constitution.

France does seem cool to me. Jim Morrison wanted to be buried there, after all. Père Lachaise would be a good place to visit someday.









Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Protean thinking Mon Nov 07, 2016 9:10 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Certain concepts are not really concepts at all, but are more like guarantors and signs marking off thus far impenetrable spaces in which, eventually, conception will be able to enter. The good, evil, and freedom are three such "concepts". They tell us only that far more work is still yet to be attempted.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida


PostSubject: Re: Protean thinking Mon Nov 07, 2016 11:52 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Oh, I think I would have to keep those three as concepts. Subjective concepts at that.

There will be differences between individuals as to what id good, evil and freedom.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: Protean thinking Mon Nov 07, 2016 12:36 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
The subjective differences between individuals as to what these three 'concepts' mean, is a quite different thing than is the claim I am making here in the OP... namely that these are not really concepts at all, but the guardians of the spaces in which future conception will/must take place.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida


PostSubject: Re: Protean thinking Mon Nov 07, 2016 11:25 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Capable wrote:
The subjective differences between individuals as to what these three 'concepts' mean, is a quite different thing than is the claim I am making here in the OP... namely that these are not really concepts at all, but the guardians of the spaces in which future conception will/must take place.

Yeah, I really did read your post. I can't say that I understood what you were pointing at though.

So let's add one more to the three you mentioned: Imprisonment.

Now we have "good/evil" and "freedom/imprisonment".

These are dualistic concepts of the human brain. The two end points of a straight line.

Sure, we could call them guide posts. Choosing good over evil and freedom over imprisonment.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Arcturus Descending
arrow
arrow
avatar

Posts : 293
Join date : 2011-12-07
Location : Hovering amidst a battle of Wills


PostSubject: Re: Protean thinking Sat Nov 12, 2016 6:25 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Capable wrote:
The subjective differences between individuals as to what these three 'concepts' mean, is a quite different thing than is the claim I am making here in the OP... namely that these are not really concepts at all, but the guardians of the spaces in which future conception will/must take place.

Do you mean to say that as we change our way of thinking and evolve, they are ideas which will branch out and transform into entirely different concepts?



___________
Each of our lives is a part of the lengthy process of the universe gradually waking up and becoming aware of itself.


Philosophy is the childhood of the intellect, and a culture that tries to skip it will never grow up."


"If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped."













Message
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: This Is Ethics Tue Oct 18, 2016 2:10 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Parodites quoted this in an aphorism -
So this is Yeats...

"Be no more a king, but learn the dreaming wisdom that is yours; a king is but a foolish labourer who wastes his blood to be another's dream."



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: This Is Ethics Tue Oct 18, 2016 2:13 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Nobility is truly unfairly concentrated in Island cultures.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: This Is Ethics Sun Nov 13, 2016 11:51 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster




___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: This Is Ethics Sun Nov 13, 2016 11:53 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Let's replace the Republican party with the Trumpican party.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: This Is Ethics Sun Nov 13, 2016 11:54 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
That would give new meaning to ethics in the practical sense.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: This Is Ethics Sun Nov 13, 2016 2:24 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fitting that this is presidency number 45.
the center of the Matrix.

The central conclusion.





My brothers, as much as Trump has the guarantee of my support, I will support the larger cause by working for humanity in the recreation of the democratic party.

'The best taste is to indulge in ones complete opposite'

This opposite has shifted from what now has become the Self, to the plasmic still-in-formation conundrum of the Left -- there is potential now for pure creation - something vast and beautiful can be sown now - a great philosophical enterprise. Trump himself is bipartisan, because he is not petty, but Great. Americas greatness involves both views, Liberal and Conservative - Blue and Red. We wont throw out the baby with the bathwater, we wil actually talk to the democratic party youths, and inspire them to philosophize VO.

There is no try. Do, or do not.
It is already to late for the latter.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida


PostSubject: Re: This Is Ethics Sun Nov 13, 2016 11:17 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Might you consider perhaps that the baby should be thrown out with the bathwater?

Birth have been given to an orphan.







Message
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Praxis Thu Nov 17, 2016 10:09 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
A very useful way of approaching a philosopher is to sample a passage or two of his in isolation from the rest of what he wrote, in order to ascertain a "genetic" level glance at deeper machinery in his thought/system by formulating a metaphor whereby the single passage or two forms an object sufficient to represent the entirety of the spaces occupied and filled out by that larger thought/system. The isolated passage acts as an image representing by a kind of self-metaphor of double and triple meanings the larger body of work and spirit of that philosopher.

Once this image is obtained we can then gradually work out from it in all directions, pushing further into the philosopher's ideas while using the original image-metaphor as a ground allowing more hierarchical classifications and meta-relations. A complex 3D object forms, as the understanding of this philosopher's contributions, and can even be set in relation to other similarly complex 3D objects of the works/contributions of other philosophers, and in the very same way and method as the object itself was formed by approaching the single philosopher through his representative passages.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida


PostSubject: Re: Praxis Thu Nov 17, 2016 10:55 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I don't doubt that this could be a useful procedure. However, I have seen it used for destructive purposes where a couple statements were taken out of context with the intention of discrediting the author. I have seen it happen many times on Nietzsche and a few times o Chuang Tzu (Taoist philosopher).








Message
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Faith Thu Nov 03, 2016 4:01 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Just like a truth told so as to be understood will always be believed, a reality shown to be necessary will always be willed.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: Faith Thu Nov 03, 2016 4:10 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Things happen because people will other things to happen.

This is the case, because no one who acts fully accounts for all the actions of the others.

So no action is rational in the long run. It can only be justified in the moment.

Justified actions followed with regularity imprint the will on millennia as on wax.

All unphilosophical actions are partial, and there are no impartial actions, thus philosophy doesn't act.

Philosopher understands the pieces into motion.

Now the philosopher sees this but the other doesn't. What is seen from the outside is that the philosopher understands, and as such wills the things as they are.

But the philosopher is animated from within by the very same things as the things that animate him from the outside;
paradox is just one of many axes that need to remain invisible for the wheels of our mind to find grip on them, and the consistency of patterns that we can discern is the same consistency as our discernment, and whether or not they seem separate is due to the lower or higher quality and degree of our valuing integrity.

Philosophic integrity is human gravity and has moons that act.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida


PostSubject: Re: Faith Thu Nov 03, 2016 11:37 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I don't use the word "faith". But I do use the word "will".

Faith is passive; will is active.

I'm not sure what you are pointing to here.

I don't agree that "... no action is rational ..." But it can be argued that the action taken may not have been the best of all choices if all facts and possible ramifications were known.

That's all I can say for now.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Arcturus Descending
arrow
arrow
avatar

Posts : 293
Join date : 2011-12-07
Location : Hovering amidst a battle of Wills


PostSubject: Re: Faith Sat Nov 26, 2016 4:25 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fixed Cross wrote:
Just like a truth told so as to be understood will always be believed, a reality shown to be necessary will always be willed.

As to the latter, I wonder why? Plain common sense and logic? Survival?




Man and things.-- Why does man not see things? He is himself standing in the way: he conceals things.

from Nietzsche's Daybreak


How true this is.








Message
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Who should I thank? Thu Dec 08, 2016 3:40 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
If you start to thank the entities and traditions that have helped shape you, there is obviously no limit.
But a hierarchy might form under a higest entity to thank.

If you could thank one thing to account for all the experience and consequence of your existence, could there be such a word?

god is invented as such praise, thanks, but it is surely stale to autromatically attribute thanks to that "Him".



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida


PostSubject: Re: Who should I thank? Fri Dec 09, 2016 12:57 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Start with your mom and go from there.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Arcturus Descending
arrow
arrow
avatar

Posts : 293
Join date : 2011-12-07
Location : Hovering amidst a battle of Wills


PostSubject: Re: Who should I thank? Sat Dec 10, 2016 4:49 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Sisyphus wrote:
Start with your mom and go from there.

That's nice. I couldn't really start there though. Rolling Eyes



___________
Each of our lives is a part of the lengthy process of the universe gradually waking up and becoming aware of itself.


Philosophy is the childhood of the intellect, and a culture that tries to skip it will never grow up."


"If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped."

Thomas Nagel
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Arcturus Descending
arrow
arrow
avatar

Posts : 293
Join date : 2011-12-07
Location : Hovering amidst a battle of Wills


PostSubject: Re: Who should I thank? Sat Dec 10, 2016 4:59 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fixed Cross wrote:
If you start to thank the entities and traditions that have helped shape you, there is obviously no limit.
But a hierarchy might form under a higest entity to thank.

If you could thank one thing to account for all the experience and consequence of your existence, could there be such a word?

god is invented as such praise, thanks, but it is surely stale to autromatically attribute thanks to that "Him".


For me, believe it or not, it would probably be the orphanage where I grew up...there but for ITS grace, go I.
It formed and structured me in ways, the good and the bad but still I am in part who I am because of this entity.

But then again...perhaps it might be the positive DNA which flows through me, ALSO enabling me to be who I am, with all of my peculiarities, my sensibilities, my strengths, my sense of wonderment and curiosity, my sticktoitiveness...
How much of that am I alone responsible for and how much comes from the wonderful people who have gone before who in a sense flow within me who I have never met and shall never know or know of?


I can never forget the Universe, like the stars, who were at times such great company and consolation and inspiration for me and nature with everything within it that I can behold or experience within myself.

I have so much to be grateful for................it sometimes amazes me what I think and feel that makes me grateful.
Image
For behold, all acts of love and pleasure are my rituals
User avatar
Jakob
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 6100
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:23 pm
Location: look at my suit

Re: The Philosophers

Postby Jakob » Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:45 am

Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: If so - Thu Oct 27, 2016 2:40 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I lazily looked up some Hegel quotes to put in a meme of an American Eagle, and hit on this one:

Amid the pressure of great events, a general principle gives no help.

What would the context be? In any case it is wrong - but only since Schopenhauer and them did the solution to this error thinkable again -
Plato and Hegel are quite similar -
Socrates and his type of dialectic work in the same way - to assume above a metaphysics and reduce all social dynamic of value to that Universal hypothesis - leaving in the end nothing but the dead of Socrates and Athens.

If we can melt Hegel in the oven that he is, then we can also forge a new instrument out of some of the parts - if the oven can generate heat, perhaps if we insert our principles that defy Hegels fatalism-universalism into the Hegelian-Socratic friction (that is what it is, I figure now, pure friction - haste of entropy - beyond the principle of honing, at least to themselves - ) -

well but this is already being done.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Arcturus Descending
arrow
arrow
avatar

Posts : 293
Join date : 2011-12-07
Location : Hovering amidst a battle of Wills


PostSubject: Re: If so - Sat Nov 05, 2016 2:55 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fixed Cross wrote:
I lazily looked up some Hegel quotes to put in a meme of an American Eagle, and hit on this one:

Amid the pressure of great events, a general principle gives no help.

What would the context be? In any case it is wrong - but only since Schopenhauer and them did the solution to this error thinkable again -
Plato and Hegel are quite similar -
Socrates and his type of dialectic work in the same way - to assume above a metaphysics and reduce all social dynamic of value to that Universal hypothesis - leaving in the end nothing but the dead of Socrates and Athens.

If we can melt Hegel in the oven that he is, then we can also forge a new instrument out of some of the parts - if the oven can generate heat, perhaps if we insert our principles that defy Hegels fatalism-universalism into the Hegelian-Socratic friction (that is what it is, I figure now, pure friction - haste of entropy - beyond the principle of honing, at least to themselves - ) -

well but this is already being done.

So are you saying that you disagree with the quote, FC?



___________
Each of our lives is a part of the lengthy process of the universe gradually waking up and becoming aware of itself.


Philosophy is the childhood of the intellect, and a culture that tries to skip it will never grow up."


"If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped."

Thomas Nagel
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida


PostSubject: Re: If so - Sat Nov 05, 2016 7:18 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Arcturus Descending wrote:

So are you saying that you disagree with the quote, FC?

I couldn't tell either. But I know that Sun Tzu (The Art of War) would totally disagree. Everything we do must be based in principles.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: If so - Sat Nov 05, 2016 7:28 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
It's really important to read Hegel one-liners in their context. That's why I try to quote him in only paragraphs, at minimum.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Arcturus Descending
arrow
arrow
avatar

Posts : 293
Join date : 2011-12-07
Location : Hovering amidst a battle of Wills


PostSubject: Re: If so - Wed Jan 04, 2017 4:29 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster


Quote :
Amid the pressure of great events, a general principle gives no help.


It may give help but then again it may not.


Heraclitus said, "You cannot step into the same river twice, for other waters are continually flowing on.

We pre-suppose that because something generally works for us, for instance, because we have our own code of ethics or way of doing things, it will always work for us.

Amid the pressure of great events though, sometimes our way of thinking and doing, has to go right out the window. Others whose waters are also continually flowing, will also be seeing thing differently and reacting differently due to great pressures - for instance, fighting to stay alive or to keep others alive.

When something is of the greatest importance, there have to be new ways of thinking or acting. Change calls for and invents new changes.

We have to think on our feet and that thinking doesn't necessarily follow a general principle.
Sometimes we will have to get just as down and dirty. Morality doesn't necessarily enter in when the rules have changed and sometime greater is in the wings.


Am I wrong?




___________
Each of our lives is a part of the lengthy process of the universe gradually waking up and becoming aware of itself.


Philosophy is the childhood of the intellect, and a culture that tries to skip it will never grow up."


"If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped."

Thomas Nagel
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: If so - Wed Jan 04, 2017 11:13 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Capable is right of course, my isolating that line is a bit fallacious. I don't even have the context, mea culpa.

Let's assume for a moment some random dude made just this statement, that a general principle isn't useful when it comes down to solving a real life crisis.

Gravity is a general principle. So is action = -reaction. And these principles serve very well in crisis situations, in fact to not heed these principles is guaranteed to cause crisis situations.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Drops_Of_Jupiter
bowstring
bowstring


Posts : 32
Join date : 2017-02-03
Age : 57
Location : Columbus, Ohio USA


PostSubject: Re: If so - Fri Feb 03, 2017 5:57 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Arcturus Descending wrote:


Quote :
Amid the pressure of great events, a general principle gives no help.


It may give help but then again it may not.


Heraclitus said, "You cannot step into the same river twice, for other waters are continually flowing on.

We pre-suppose that because something generally works for us, for instance, because we have our own code of ethics or way of doing things, it will always work for us.

Amid the pressure of great events though, sometimes our way of thinking and doing, has to go right out the window. Others whose waters are also continually flowing, will also be seeing thing differently and reacting differently due to great pressures - for instance, fighting to stay alive or to keep others alive.

When something is of the greatest importance, there have to be new ways of thinking or acting. Change calls for and invents new changes.

We have to think on our feet and that thinking doesn't necessarily follow a general principle.
Sometimes we will have to get just as down and dirty. Morality doesn't necessarily enter in when the rules have changed and sometime greater is in the wings.


Am I wrong?


Well put! I don't think you are wrong. Your logic made sense!
























Honor to Trump's victory View previous topic View next topic Go down
Author Message
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Honor to Trump's victory Thu Jan 19, 2017 11:29 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Something like 17 hours to go.

This thread is dedicated to joyous celebration of Trump's win. Images, videos and text welcome.

I'll start it off.





___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: Honor to Trump's victory Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:46 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster



https://postimg.org/image/57wmeyhl9/



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: Honor to Trump's victory Fri Jan 20, 2017 8:08 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
It's official.

Neighbors next to me here just put up a huge Trump flag in their yard, right below their American flag. The atmosphere here is excited and relieved. You can feel it on the air.

Tectonic shifts in the existentia. Now a new era begins.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: Honor to Trump's victory Fri Jan 20, 2017 8:14 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
This was some intense address. Every hall of power must have been trembling.
I can feel the air crackling behind your words, that's good to hear.
Here it is silent as ever.

My connection got interrupted right as he was saying "Every hall of power". I went outside to walk the free Earth.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: Honor to Trump's victory Fri Jan 20, 2017 8:16 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
The man had an impressive array of VO esque logics to offer.

Very nice what he said about not imposing but shining. Like gold, perfect selfvaluing, incorruptible.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: Honor to Trump's victory Fri Jan 20, 2017 9:08 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster

I feel exhausted...

a lot of things happened today...

this made me laugh
http://9gag.com/gag/ao2b84m






___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: Honor to Trump's victory Fri Jan 20, 2017 9:14 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster


Image


___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: Honor to Trump's victory Fri Jan 20, 2017 10:04 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
"A nation exists to serve its citizens." --President Trump



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: Honor to Trump's victory Fri Jan 20, 2017 10:23 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Trump said it all. And he said it powerfully. It was a declaration of war, though - the rain, it was not a hollow omen, as now the world begins, and the world is fire. We will need the rain, for there will be much ashes, and wet ash is the most fertile substance - CHO -

A different work will be set in motion. Our talking here will no longer suffice - this presidency needs philosophers.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: Honor to Trump's victory Tue Jan 31, 2017 10:10 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster






___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: Honor to Trump's victory Tue Jan 31, 2017 10:11 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster




___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: Honor to Trump's victory Tue Jan 31, 2017 10:12 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster

Image
Image
For behold, all acts of love and pleasure are my rituals
User avatar
Jakob
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 6100
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:23 pm
Location: look at my suit

Re: The Philosophers

Postby Jakob » Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:46 am

Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida


PostSubject: Re: Honor to Trump's victory Tue Jan 31, 2017 11:20 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
New slogan for the anti-Trump protestors:

"Jump For Trump"

off a bridge, a building, whatever.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: Honor to Trump's victory Tue Jan 31, 2017 11:22 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Sisyphus wrote:
New slogan for the anti-Trump protestors:

"Jump For Trump"

off a bridge, a building, whatever.

LOL



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: Honor to Trump's victory Mon Feb 27, 2017 6:14 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
"MAGA." --Nietzsche



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: Honor to Trump's victory Mon Feb 27, 2017 6:15 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
LGBT: Let's Get Behind Trump



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida


PostSubject: Re: Honor to Trump's victory Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:58 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Thrasymachus wrote:
LGBT: Let's Get Behind Trump

How do you spell relief?

NoAids





https://2img.net/h/s30.postimg.cc/l71up ... G_1099.jpg








Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Venezuela Mon Mar 06, 2017 11:22 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I've been thinking of Pezer lately, and recently I had an online chat with a socialist who claimed Venezuela isn't "real socialism".. I explained philosophically why Venezuela specifically has failed, and then i explained philosophically why socialism doesn't work. Of course he had no response but to insult me and play the Chomsky game of demanding I know all the hyper-particular details of every government and economic moment in order to explain why it didn't work... when I explained why that analytic-empirical (anti-philosophical) Chomsky-ite approach is bullshit, and I demanded he address what I wrote about the nature of socialism as well as Venezuela's specific problems caused by Chavez and their oil situation (ironically only the "great evil" USA paid full price for their oil) and that how a country with more oil than Saudi Arabia can fuck up so badly, he promptly left.

Anyway, I'm convinced he was a paid subversive shill working the internet for disinformation purposes. I've encountered these types before.

I hope Pezer is doing well.

On a related note, this video is what inspired me to share my story of the chat I had. This is really a fantastic video:





___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: Venezuela Mon Mar 06, 2017 11:32 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Very good analysis. Let's get BTL News going and link to Molyneux.

"It is sad there are so many people who have not developed the level of maturity that is necesssey in order to make political choices".

Absolutely.











Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: A possible formula Thu Feb 16, 2017 5:23 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Selfvaluing is power to will, will is will to power, power is will to love, love is will to life, life is will to give, bring forth, create-through. And that's the end of that.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida


PostSubject: Re: A possible formula Fri Feb 17, 2017 12:17 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Does love really need to be in there? Love is one of those words with so many connotations.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: A possible formula Fri Feb 17, 2017 9:28 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
will to exalt, then -
I mean among other connotations to refer to the idea of creating beyond oneself, and to take pleasure in serving a real cause that includes but exceeds oneself, or at least that part of oneself that one wishes to cultivate - what I call the selfvaluing logic.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida


PostSubject: Re: A possible formula Sat Feb 18, 2017 2:47 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fixed Cross wrote:
will to exalt, then -
I mean among other connotations to refer to the idea of creating beyond oneself, and to take pleasure in serving a real cause that includes but exceeds oneself, or at least that part of oneself that one wishes to cultivate - what I call the selfvaluing logic.

Yes, this I can easily work with. I think that a full life includes holding ideals greater than one's self. If you will, having an ideal you are willing to die for in order to protect or accomplish.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: A possible formula Sat Feb 18, 2017 3:08 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Very well. I see that ethics is the sort of context where you can best follow what I am saying.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida


PostSubject: Re: A possible formula Sat Feb 18, 2017 3:56 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fixed Cross wrote:
Very well. I see that ethics is the sort of context where you can best follow what I am saying.

Well done Fixed Cross.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Drops_Of_Jupiter
bowstring
bowstring


Posts : 32
Join date : 2017-02-03
Age : 57
Location : Columbus, Ohio USA


PostSubject: Re: A possible formula Wed Mar 01, 2017 10:40 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I don't agree with holding onto a concept that we will "die" for. - That seems a young persons creed. However, having made it to 56, very little in life is worth dying for...if anything.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail https://www.facebook.com/debbie.styers
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: A possible formula Sat Mar 04, 2017 7:33 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Drops_Of_Jupiter wrote:
I don't agree with holding onto a concept that we will "die" for. - That seems a young persons creed. However, having made it to 56, very little in life is worth dying for...if anything.

Its a great privilege to have such a value as to exalt ones consciousness above ones physical self. Usually we dont have it. Modernity is in a sense mans impotence to value beyond his mortal coil... he does not have the will to sow himself like a seed.

But mans greatness is a seed.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: A possible formula Sat Mar 04, 2017 7:36 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I can't imagine a worse hell and fate than to have nothing worth dying for.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: A possible formula Sat Mar 04, 2017 8:03 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster




___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Drops_Of_Jupiter
bowstring
bowstring


Posts : 32
Join date : 2017-02-03
Age : 57
Location : Columbus, Ohio USA


PostSubject: Re: A possible formula Sat Mar 04, 2017 8:14 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Hmmm... When I was younger, I would have "died" for many of my beliefs. But something happened.... I got a business education and grew up.

I used to see only my side of the coin, the "right" side. Now I see multiple sides and angles. Let's take the controversial topic of abortion. When younger, I knew in my heart that it is wrong. Then I met my best friend. She had an abortion when she was young. She explained her story and I felt her pain and understood. Still, it was "wrong" in my book. Then, I met another friend whose beliefs are "Its a woman's body and her right to choose." I don't know that I agree with that. Seems really out there to me. ---- But I ask, "Who am I to judge??" I'm just a woman. I've never been pregnant. I've never been faced with the choice to make. How can I judge or stand for or against this???

Most all people in this world are doing the best that they can. Everyone makes choices based upon their experiences. Until I live another's life, I don't think I can judge.

I ask, " How can I die for issues that are so complex - and have an individual side to them as well?" An Aerosmith song comes to mind....(changing the lyrics a bit [Livin On the Edge])... "If you can judge a wise woman by her decisions, Based on her individual experiences, Then mister your a wiser person than me!!!"

No dears.... I will not be dying for some "cause." There is "All Sides with Debbie Styers [Ann Fisher]." It is sad that some people cannot see another's point of view...with love in their heart and understanding in their mind.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail https://www.facebook.com/debbie.styers
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: A possible formula Sat Mar 04, 2017 8:21 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Drops_Of_Jupiter wrote:
Hmmm... When I was younger, I would have "died" for many of my beliefs. But something happened.... I got a business education and grew up.

I used to see only my side of the coin, the "right" side. Now I see multiple sides and angles. Let's take the controversial topic of abortion. When younger, I knew in my heart that it is wrong. Then I met my best friend. She had an abortion when she was young. She explained her story and I felt her pain and understood. Still, it was "wrong" in my book. Then, I met another friend whose beliefs are "Its a woman's body and her right to choose." I don't know that I agree with that. Seems really out there to me. ---- But I ask, "Who am I to judge??" I'm just a woman. I've never been pregnant. I've never been faced with the choice to make. How can I judge or stand for or against this???

Most all people in this world are doing the best that they can. Everyone makes choices based upon their experiences. Until I live another's life, I don't think I can judge.

I ask, " How can I die for issues that are so complex - and have an individual side to them as well?" An Aerosmith song comes to mind....(changing the lyrics a bit [Livin On the Edge])... "If you can judge a wise woman by her decisions, Based on her individual experiences, Then mister your a wiser person than me!!!"

No dears.... I will not be dying for some "cause." There is "All Sides with Debbie Styers [Ann Fisher]." It is sad that some people cannot see another's point of view...with love in their heart and understanding in their mind.






___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Drops_Of_Jupiter
bowstring
bowstring


Posts : 32
Join date : 2017-02-03
Age : 57
Location : Columbus, Ohio USA


PostSubject: Re: A possible formula Sat Mar 04, 2017 8:44 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Hey Babe - I appreciate the crayons [keyboard & forum.]

Did you know what makes humor, funny? LOL!!! It's the tiny degree of truth in it.

As for the helmet.... that is kind of like the old CB Rambo thing that truckers used to use. You know, you can say anything because no one knows who you are (because you are hiding behind a CB mike somewhere). I didn't pick up the helmet. You have my real name right there. I see no reason to use a helmet. LOL...I reckon I appreciate the gesture though. LOL!
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail https://www.facebook.com/debbie.styers
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida


PostSubject: Re: A possible formula Sat Mar 04, 2017 12:55 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Helmets are useful if things are dropping down from above.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: A possible formula Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:07 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster




___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: A possible formula Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:15 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Drops_Of_Jupiter wrote:
Hmmm... When I was younger, I would have "died" for many of my beliefs.

""died""?

I imagine a priest on a funeral reading the last sacrament, and then saying here lies DOJ, he *wiggles fingers* "died" for his country.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Drops_Of_Jupiter
bowstring
bowstring


Posts : 32
Join date : 2017-02-03
Age : 57
Location : Columbus, Ohio USA


PostSubject: Re: A possible formula Mon Mar 06, 2017 5:52 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Thrasymachus wrote:


Seriously, to quote Ray Stevens "Everyone is Beautiful." Why make fun of some picture of some woman that probably has no clue your even using her picture.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail https://www.facebook.com/debbie.styers
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: A possible formula Mon Mar 06, 2017 7:10 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I think my point was lost on you.

Beauty actually means something. Not everyone or everything is beautiful. As soon as you universalized beauty you destroyed it.

Modern leftist-liberal-PC culture of making everyone feel like a beautiful precious snowflake is fucking stupid.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Drops_Of_Jupiter
bowstring
bowstring


Posts : 32
Join date : 2017-02-03
Age : 57
Location : Columbus, Ohio USA


PostSubject: Re: A possible formula Mon Mar 06, 2017 7:33 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Thrasymachus wrote:
I think my point was lost on you.

Beauty actually means something. Not everyone or everything is beautiful. As soon as you universalized beauty you destroyed it.

Modern leftist-liberal-PC culture of making everyone feel like a beautiful precious snowflake is fucking stupid.

A person is born with her mother's and father's genes. She can only control so much of her physical appearance. Why make her feel less "beautiful" cause her face doesn't meet your standards of beauty? That is not only cruelty, but it is also unnecessary.

I think its sad when people look for ugliness, instead of seeing the beauty in most all of life!

Do you fear that "universal beauty" will destroy your "special beauty?"
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail https://www.facebook.com/debbie.styers
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: A possible formula Mon Mar 06, 2017 7:44 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Do you even know what beauty is, and means? Do you even believe in the concept of beauty?

It seems not.

You have re-defined beauty as "whatever makes me feel good". It makes you feel bad to pass judgment on anyone for being "less beautiful", therefore you have re-defined beauty as "never feeling bad by judging anyone for being less beautiful". In the process of your aspirations to universal kindness and warm-feeling you have lost sight of reality, it seems.

You are free to go along with your female feeling of never feeling bad for judging anything in a way that might feel bad to someone else, by all means keep it up. But don't pretend what you're doing is either philosophy or has anything to do with what beauty really is.

No matter how much the feminish-leftist-liberal-politically correct paradigm doubles down on this approach, it will not change the fact that beauty means something and we are beings that respond to beauty and to what beauty indicates. No amount of warm-feeling liberalism will reverse ugliness and beauty, no matter how much you wish it could.

And of course physical beauty is connected to genes... so what? Does that somehow belie the fact that beauty is beauty? No it doesn't. Everything has a reason and cause for being what it is, including beauty and ugliness. But again, feel free to pretend that isn't the case.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: A possible formula Mon Mar 06, 2017 7:45 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
To me, the great ugliness is the fact that people like you have lost the ability to call ugly ugly, and beauty beauty.

It is profoundly ugly that you can no longer differentiate properly, all because it might not "feel good", or something.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Drops_Of_Jupiter
bowstring
bowstring


Posts : 32
Join date : 2017-02-03
Age : 57
Location : Columbus, Ohio USA


PostSubject: Re: A possible formula Mon Mar 06, 2017 8:42 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Beauty means of extraordinary quality that is pleasing to the sight.

You seem to limit sight to the surface....as in skin deep. The woman's picture doesn't meet your qualifications as beautiful because you see only her face. - Sadly, this I understand. However, I believe that the motto of ..if you can't practice kindness, then nothing should be said. Can you possibly imagine having your picture being mocked and posted online like this? It is simply hurtful, unkind and cruel. - Ironically, you seem to fancy yourself as a thinker. Yet, you think nothing of being hurtful! To me, that is ugliness.

I see beauty in that woman's picture because I suspect she as seen it, has been hurt by people like you, yet...most likely goes on to live a somewhat "normal life." But in truth... we really don't know the damage those remarks under the woman's picture has caused her! - Yeah, I can look at reality. I know beauty from ugliness.

--- I read somewhere once that when a person lies to protect another's feelings, it demostrates that the person has a higher IQ than someone who doesn't, because it takes intelligence to actually consider another's feelings.

Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail https://www.facebook.com/debbie.styers
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: A possible formula Mon Mar 06, 2017 1:55 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Thrasymachus wrote:
To me, the great ugliness is the fact that people like you have lost the ability to call ugly ugly, and beauty beauty.

It is profoundly ugly that you can no longer differentiate properly, all because it might not "feel good", or something.

It doesnt feel good to the ugly, but nothing feels good to them. I mean ugly in the broad sense, like Obonko and Cloggcunt represent.
And this is the goal: to eliminate all good feelings, because some unfortunates don't have the capacity for them.
That is Socialism in a nutshell: to level with unlimited violence and intrusion all mans feelings to those of the very most miserable miscreants.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: A possible formula Mon Mar 06, 2017 2:00 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Drops_Of_Jupiter wrote:
Beauty means of extraordinary quality that is pleasing to the sight.

You seem to limit sight to the surface....as in skin deep. The woman's picture doesn't meet your qualifications as beautiful because you see only her face. - Sadly, this I understand. However, I believe that the motto of ..if you can't practice kindness, then nothing should be said.

Then you are a slave.

Quote :
Can you possibly imagine having your picture being mocked and posted online like this? It is simply hurtful, unkind and cruel. - Ironically, you seem to fancy yourself as a thinker. Yet, you think nothing of being hurtful! To me, that is ugliness.

Your mind is deformed. It's very ugly to look at. Cover it up, show some decency, slave.

That that woman is ugly is your judgment by the way, the picture doesn't say that. its all in your mind.
So not only are you ugly, you are also cruel and mean to that poor woman, and without being able to help yourself.
Your subconsciousness decides that she is ugly and has you interpret the pic like that, and then your consciousness is scared of your judgment and blammes it on T.

Sad.

Quote :
I see beauty in that woman's picture because I suspect she as seen it, has been hurt by people like you, yet...most likely goes on to live a somewhat "normal life." But in truth... we really don't know the damage those remarks under the woman's picture has caused her! - Yeah, I can look at reality. I know beauty from ugliness.

--- I read somewhere once that when a person lies to protect another's feelings, it demostrates that the person has a higher IQ than someone who doesn't, because it takes intelligence to actually consider another's feelings.

Oh you read that, huh?
That's impressive man.
Now you have your own opinion about IQ. That's so awesome. Cherish that opinion. It's super-important, slave.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: A possible formula Mon Mar 06, 2017 3:44 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fixed Cross wrote:
Thrasymachus wrote:
To me, the great ugliness is the fact that people like you have lost the ability to call ugly ugly, and beauty beauty.

It is profoundly ugly that you can no longer differentiate properly, all because it might not "feel good", or something.

It doesnt feel good to the ugly, but nothing feels good to them. I mean ugly in the broad sense, like Obonko and Cloggcunt represent.
And this is the goal: to eliminate all good feelings, because some unfortunates don't have the capacity for them.
That is Socialism in a nutshell: to level with unlimited violence and intrusion all mans feelings to those of the very most miserable miscreants.

Yeah, that ^
Image
For behold, all acts of love and pleasure are my rituals
User avatar
Jakob
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 6100
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:23 pm
Location: look at my suit

Re: The Philosophers

Postby Jakob » Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:53 am

Drops_Of_Jupiter
bowstring
bowstring


Posts : 32
Join date : 2017-02-03
Age : 57
Location : Columbus, Ohio USA


PostSubject: Re: A possible formula Mon Mar 06, 2017 4:06 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fixed Cross wrote, "And this is the goal: to eliminate all good feelings, because some unfortunates don't have the capacity for them.
That is Socialism in a nutshell..."

Okay...I understand your furry at me and the need to defend your friend. However, I must ask, "In this furry did you lose your ability to think?"

All people (unless there is some rare or special disease that I don't know about) feel. They have both good and bad feelings - and a spectrum of feelings. To say "some unfortunates don't [feel]" shows no thought on your part.

LOL!!! It does show when frustrated your ability to name call comes out [socialist]. LOL!!
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail https://www.facebook.com/debbie.styers
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: A possible formula Mon Mar 06, 2017 4:09 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster

Image

Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail https://www.facebook.com/debbie.styers
Drops_Of_Jupiter
bowstring
bowstring


Posts : 32
Join date : 2017-02-03
Age : 57
Location : Columbus, Ohio USA


PostSubject: Re: A possible formula Mon Mar 06, 2017 4:21 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster


LOL!!! Actually, I did say!! S M I L E LOL!!






Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Trump Victory Santions: War for Love Mon Nov 14, 2016 5:44 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
The ignorance of what Trump is has the form of the conviction that he is against love itself. What this means tis that the disenfranchised anarchists now have only one sanction;l to war for love over hate.

true rage is now employed under the word; Love.
This is good.

Absolute trembling skepsis along the abyss is now practiced in those media, that have lost their grip. This too is good.

The ID has come loose from the Real into the Word - and this word is now 'Love over Hate'.
Precisely because this is the word, the Id has come loose.
The word-as-such as been revealed: self-valuing. The superego has become the id, which it always was. The monster of energy, no real face, just facets. At the eye of this storm now appears a figure - one question remains: what will come of his hair?



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: Trump Victory Santions: War for Love Mon Nov 14, 2016 6:45 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Haha yeah you are right... all these raving angry people chanting "Love over hate" is pretty fucking ironic.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: Trump Victory Santions: War for Love Mon Nov 14, 2016 8:20 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
They should all go south and be baptized in Georgia... under a weeping willow. Then theyll find the Jesus and his flaming sword.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida


PostSubject: Re: Trump Victory Santions: War for Love Mon Nov 14, 2016 11:58 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
A perfect example of why I don't talk about the word "love" very often. The word has so many connotations, many of them negative.

Their love sure has been showing lately, hasn't it?
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: Trump Victory Santions: War for Love Mon Mar 06, 2017 4:45 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
This is a good summary of leftist insanity so far:

http://www.truthjustice.net/politics/ra ... ent-trump/


Image



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida


PostSubject: Re: Trump Victory Santions: War for Love Tue Mar 07, 2017 2:00 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Sadly that's pretty close to reality today.

You fuck with my delusions and I will kill you.
Image
For behold, all acts of love and pleasure are my rituals
User avatar
Jakob
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 6100
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:23 pm
Location: look at my suit

Re: The Philosophers

Postby Jakob » Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:57 am

Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Negotiation Techniques Tue Mar 07, 2017 3:23 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster




___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Drops_Of_Jupiter
bowstring
bowstring


Posts : 32
Join date : 2017-02-03
Age : 57
Location : Columbus, Ohio USA


PostSubject: Re: Negotiation Techniques Tue Mar 07, 2017 7:44 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Excellent example of your quote!










Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Open letter to Google, YouTube, Alphabet, DARPA, CIA Wed Mar 08, 2017 12:01 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Google -- read this!

You can be a hero

Stop being the villain

Follow your own motto, "Don't be evil"

You can make so much more money.. helping humanity

Working with truth and not against it

I know you are reading this

Google

YouTube

Alphabet

NSA

DARPA

CIA

We need your help!

Work with us, not against us

The future needs you.


Do the right thing, Google

Be a hero of truth.

I know you can.


The future is yours, and ours

It belongs to truth

It belongs to humanity.




___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida


PostSubject: Re: Open letter to Google, YouTube, Alphabet, DARPA, CIA Wed Mar 08, 2017 12:18 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Reading it and acting upon it are two totally different actions.


Last edited by Sisyphus on Thu Mar 09, 2017 1:48 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: Open letter to Google, YouTube, Alphabet, DARPA, CIA Wed Mar 08, 2017 1:37 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Thrasymachus wrote:
Google -- read this!

You can be a hero

Stop being the villain

Follow your own motto, "Don't be evil"

You can make so much more money.. helping humanity

Working with truth and not against it

I know you are reading this

Google

YouTube

Alphabet

NSA

DARPA

CIA

We need your help!

Work with us, not against us

The future needs you.


Do the right thing, Google

Be a hero of truth.

I know you can.


The future is yours, and ours

It belongs to truth

It belongs to humanity.


Shared on Facebook.

Also from Facebook:

https://i.imgur.com/0PmCSP0.png



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida


PostSubject: Re: Open letter to Google, YouTube, Alphabet, DARPA, CIA Thu Mar 09, 2017 1:49 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Still searching for the truth, are you? Lots of luck with that one.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: Open letter to Google, YouTube, Alphabet, DARPA, CIA Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:08 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Google, you're on notice:

Until I determine that you have become the champion of truth (humanity) rather than its enemy, I will from this point onward be using DuckDuckGo instead of you.

Take notice. That's -1 user for you. Until you change.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: Open letter to Google, YouTube, Alphabet, DARPA, CIA Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:57 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
hey thats a nice one.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=%22value+onto ... =he&ia=web




___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: Open letter to Google, YouTube, Alphabet, DARPA, CIA Fri Mar 17, 2017 1:29 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
After clicking "more results",

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=%22value+onto ... =he&ia=web
Image
For behold, all acts of love and pleasure are my rituals
User avatar
Jakob
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 6100
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:23 pm
Location: look at my suit

Re: The Philosophers

Postby Jakob » Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:05 am

Defenders of the Earth
Image
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Philosophy in present times Tue Mar 07, 2017 3:57 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Great stuff:





___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: Philosophy in present times Tue Mar 07, 2017 4:04 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
"Our choices determine the destiny of the world... You get nailed when you make a stupid decision, because you're altering the structure of reality, and it'll snap back and take you out." --Peterson



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: Philosophy in present times Tue Mar 07, 2017 5:15 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I like that formulation.
Kinda fits to astrology.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida


PostSubject: Re: Philosophy in present times Tue Mar 07, 2017 11:57 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Thrasymachus wrote:
"Our choices determine the destiny of the world... You get nailed when you make a stupid decision, because you're altering the structure of reality, and it'll snap back and take you out." --Peterson

Well, I like this quote. Very Taoist.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Drops_Of_Jupiter
bowstring
bowstring


Posts : 32
Join date : 2017-02-03
Age : 57
Location : Columbus, Ohio USA


PostSubject: Re: Philosophy in present times Tue Mar 07, 2017 7:41 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Stupid used to mean "mentally slow," and at one time used to describe a degree of retardation. Today, they don't even use retardation anymore. I think the PC words for it are mentally challenged.

Looking at the quote from a Charles Darwin view, it seems to make sense. Only the smart and strong survive. But this brings up the question.... is there such thing as "dumb luck?"
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail https://www.facebook.com/debbie.styers
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida


PostSubject: Re: Philosophy in present times Wed Mar 08, 2017 1:15 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Yes, I think there is such a thing as dump luck. I generally refer to it as good fortune but it's the same thing. Being in the right place at the right time, planned or unplanned.

If we want to be rained on we must go to where it is raining.

Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: Philosophy in present times Wed Mar 08, 2017 2:38 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
This starts getting interesting around 18 minutes, and seems to fall to shit around an hour or so. I stopped listening at an hour 20 min.





___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: Philosophy in present times Wed Mar 08, 2017 2:42 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
If one of us had been in that conversation things wouldn't have devolved like that. What is lacking is a proper philosophical context, to avoid pointless categorical disagreements and to unite the scientific will properly under the 'psychological' truth that is, as you hear in that conversation above, struggling from both sides to break free, but can't quite do so.

This "'psychological' truth" is, of course, self-valuing and the daemonic.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy


Last edited by Thrasymachus on Wed Mar 08, 2017 3:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: Philosophy in present times Wed Mar 08, 2017 3:28 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Possible better continuation:


Harris: You can't deny that the weaponizing of smallpox would represent a truth.

Peterson: Yes absolutely, there is a truth, or a set of facts, that is required to be understood and actualized in order to be able to weaponize smallpox. But what I am saying is that there are greater and lesser facts, greater and less truths.

Harris: Ok, so if I am understanding you here, you are saying that facts are facts, and that the totality of all fact might be called "truth". But in addition, that within that domain of all facts, "truth", there are greater and lesser facts, which corresponds to a greater or lesser degree of truth.

Peterson: Yes, absolutely. What I saying is that, and I agree with you about what you said just there that the totality of all facts is what "truth itself" means, in the broadest sense, or perhaps in the most scientific sense, but in addition to understanding this we also need to be able to look at particular ranges within this totality and realize that certain facts, or certain collections of facts, rank higher or lower based on a certain standard.

Harris: And what standard would that be? Because so far you have seemed to be saying that Darwinian selection and survival is the most fundamental standard.

Peterson: Well what I really mean to get at, is that when I said "reality is that which selects" what this really means is that certain truths, or facts if you like, are more significant, have more meaning and more reality based on how comprehensive they are; based on how many other facts they subsume under themselves, and based on the significance and far-reaching consequences that usher from those facts. Part of this significance and broader totality of consequences includes whether or not we will survive. So survivalism is indeed nested inside your sort of realism, or materialist realism, but there is also a larger category here: that even given the let's call it scientific or empirical fact that survival and Darwinianism is nested inside of a larger realism, realism itself is also nested inside of a larger metaphysical space that we might call the universe of meaning, in which certain truths or facts acquire substance and potency, meaning and significance, based on the degree to which those truths lead to something. If the invention of weaponized smallpox leads to the annihilation of humanity then it is indeed correct to say that the weaponizing of smallpox was indeed true, and based on facts that made such a task possible, however we can't stop there, we need to go a step further and say that this truth failed to rank higher than other truths which could have allowed for the persistence and expansion into actuality of even more truths, including in this case of course our own survival.

Harris: So you are claiming that even realism is nested inside of, what seems to be, its own rank-ordering and with respect to a certain kind of "metaphysical" significance?

Peterson: Well yes, but to be even more accurate, we need to isolate facts and truths and see how fundamental they are, which means we need to do a phenomenological reduction here on par with Husserl and try to eidetically identify the root of a fact, to find its necessity, and to see on what that fact depends and to what other facts it is linked.

Harris: Ok I think I am starting to see your perspective here, and I don't think I necessarily disagree. To me, materialist realism is quite close to Hussal's own phenomenological project, because while on the one hand we can always say that a fact is a fact and regardless whether or not any living beings are around to comprehend that fact, this fact itself, of knowing this, of stating that 'a fact is a fact regardless...', is itself also just another fact within the larger totality of facts.

Peterson: Exactly. And what is so interesting is that facts are infinite for this very reason, that not only do you have an individual fact like "such and such technological process in molecular biology will yield weaponized smallpox", for example, but you also have to say that it is a fact that "such and such...", basically you need to say that, of any fact at all, it is also a fact that that fact is the case. And then you open up a whole other universe of facts, derivative or meta-facts, which are facts about facts. This is why I was invoking Nietzsche earlier, because Nietzsche points out, correctly I think, that some facts are "just facts" while other facts are facts about facts, meta-facts if you will... and if we follow a kind of Platonic metaphysical example here, or Husserl even, we find that there are also facts about the fact which are about a fact, and all the way up and up, without end. Nietzsche was interested in climbing the ladder as high as he could, to identify the most summative and therefore fundamental of all facts. And if that is the project we and philosophy and science ought to be pursuing, then we must abandon so-called individual or merely self-sufficient facts, like whatever it takes to create weaponized smallpox for instance, as occupying a lower rung in the totality of all facts.

Harris: I like how you express this idea, and it seems we now agree that a fact is a fact regardless of its utility value to us or to anything else. Even if smallpox were to be synthesized in this way and ends up killing all humans, it is nonetheless a incontrovertible fact that such-and-such a process of producing that smallpox was indeed true. But now you're bringing in a larger concern, and claiming that even though this is true, there are larger or more comprehensive truths, and that these latter are even more important. I find that interesting, because of my own interest in morality.

Peterson: This gets at the concept of self-valuing, which is also a fact. Self-valuing is the idea that all beings, whether we call them alive or not, exist in a way that they are self-valuing, namely that they hold themselves as the standard for their activities and interactions. So a human being values itself by acting and interacting in certain ways that implicitly, necessarily, hold that human being itself, as precisely what it is, even if it doesnt know what that is, as the core standard of measure and of value. Because if a human being did not do this then it would quite simply perish almost immediately. And this self-valuing logic also holds for any thing whatsoever, even fish and rocks and hydrogen atoms.

Harris: Then you are invoking Nietzsche here and attempting to condition realism to a larger moral principle, which to me seems somewhat similar to the notion of the will to power, which is also a survivalist notion.

Peterson: Yes and no. Survival is indeed necessary, but for one thing it is not sufficient, and for another thing it is not comprehensive. Survival does not encompass all that a being is, and indeed surviving is more like a secondary side-effect of that which a thing is. Darwin recognizes this when he realizes that selection is fundamentally driven by the contingent environmental conditions to which a living thing is subject. But it goes even deeper than that, because regardless of those contingent environmental conditions and contexts it is always the case that any being, whether or not it survives, was attempting to act and interact in such a way where it held what it is as a standard for those actions and interactions. A fish values water more than air, and a fish that attempts to value air over water will die. A rock values the distribution of force across its molecular bonds in such a way that maintains the integrity of the rock as structure, and when it is unable to distribute force in that way, for example if the force is just too strong for those chemical bonds, then the rock breaks apart, or melts, or whatever.

Harris: Now you have identified a subtle distinction here between living and nonliving things, because the rock is either able or unable to self-value, as you say, but a fish or a human seems to be able to make a kind of choice regarding its activities and interactions, and could possibly error in that choice even if the environment doesn't create too great a force upon it, such as was the case with the rock that shattered or melted.

Peterson: Exactly right. This is also a Nietzschean or Platonic observation, because living things rank higher on the continuum of being, on the standard-order of "power" or of what is meaningful. Namely that living things have access to a whole new category of facts which stuff like rocks have no access to. The rock has no choice but to be a direct consequent of whatever its environment throws at it, although even despite this it is still the case that the rock is valuing itself, namely that that which the rock is, a certain molecular composite of chemical bonds and structures with certain physical properties for example, is going to act and interact with the imposing environmental forces in a predeterminate way, and that way is precisely that way which maximizes the chance of the rock remaining what it is, but within the bounds of what is possible for the rock to do. A rock has no option to, say, shift its angle to deflect an incoming force, because a rock has no muscular structure to move itself, no bone structure against which to generate kinetic force in its muscles to create such movements, and no sensory apparatus and corresponding neurological systems to integrate incoming data from the environment to determine that it should move itself like that. But a fish or a human does have those systems, which means the fish and the human have access to a whole new realm of reality. And this access gives them an increased range of possible values, although somewhat ironically it doesn't mean that the fish or the human will survive longer than the rock will survive, in fact often it is the exact opposite.

Harris: So maybe living things are more contingent and fragile precisely because they have this newfound capacity for understanding their environment and changing their behavior accordingly?

Peterson: Well a living thing, ok any thing that has the subtle and highly complex inner structure able to for example possess eyes, a brain, muscles and bones, is necessarily going to be far more molecularly complex than is a rock, because the living thing needs to have all the lesser biological structures in place to even have eyes, muscles, etc. That involves DNA, and so many other things too. So it isn't that the fish or the human is necessarily less survivable than is a rock merely because the fish and human have greater access to truth, rather there is a correlative element here that isn't directly causal: namely, being able to have that greater access entails that a being is far more complex and conditional in its own 'materiality', to use your term, and therefore will have a lot more requirements that go along with maintaining and sustaining that materiality. But I think this goes hand in hand, and in a way evolution can be thought of as the process by which beings become so much more complex and conditional that they are required to "survive" in new and more demanding and precise ways than other things which are not as complex and conditional. A human has far more precise requirements to continue existing than for example does a rock, or does a hydrogen atom to use an even more extreme example.

Harris: I find this all quite fascinating. We seem to have combined our respective positions on "what is truth" into a larger purview, where not only is Darwinian selection nested inside realism, and realism is also nested inside a kind of selection principle too, but that this bi-conditional or dual structure is itself nested inside an even larger space, the space of the rank-ordering of truths with respect to a common principle of logic the you call self-valuing.

Peterson: I think this is the case. So we are both correct here. Morally speaking, we are realists that are always striving for a higher and more comprehensive picture of reality, so that means we both become more survivable and more exposed to new dangers, but all that is secondary; what is primary is that, the very fact that we are "always striving for a higher and more comprehensive picture of reality" is itself actually just a secondary expression of a more primary fact, namely that we are climbing further up the ladder of being.

Harris: So a proper philosophy would take all of this into account, and assign proper places to facts, and would always seek the larger purview of facts not only because that is going to make us have a greater change of survival, because sometimes it will also expose us to new dangers like the possibility of weaponizing a synthetic smallpox virus, but simply because that is exactly what it means for us to be us. Self-valuing requires that we keep pushing upward in this manner, expanding the sphere of our survivability and our mortality. This seems to explain how morality is so contentious and difficult to universalize, because every moral step, if your theory is correct, would be a step that both increases the moral "good" while also in the same way increasing the moral "bad", and morality itself is the attempt to reconcile these together.

Peterson: Yes, to reconcile them together but in a very special way: in a way that not only includes and incorporates both the good and the bad, and not only implicitly or explicitly organizes goods and bads relative to each other and relative to contingent environmental factors, but also in a way that corresponds to the very climb into the universal itself, our continuing subsumption of lesser facts to greater facts. And further, what I was saying before about rank-ordering certain facts within the totality of all facts, the standard by which this is done is not merely with regard to that totality or to the climb or fall within it, but is actually necessarily grounded in that being which is actually doing the rank-ordering. Because this brings being back to itself, in Heidegger's sense of man as "that being for which its own being is an issue", we see that any being capable of attaining this high space within the totality of facts, within truth, is going to still be self-valuing, and therefore will rank-order not only with respect to the facts and fact-ranges at its perception and disposal and the various 'objective' thresholds and comprehensivities of those facts or ranges, but more importantly or at least as importantly it is going to be doing this rank-ordering still based on what that being itself is, its own values and requirements for existing.

Haris: Damn, now you have blown my mind completely. I need to rethink everything. We should work together and change the course of philosophy!

Peterson: Yes I think we ought to do that, and we can do it.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida


PostSubject: Re: Philosophy in present times Thu Mar 09, 2017 1:54 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Someone once said something like, you should not expect different results if you continue doing the exact same thing over and over again.

I stopped getting married after three failed attempts.

Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: Philosophy in present times Fri Mar 17, 2017 2:03 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Goddammit but I just fucking love this guy. Peterson I mean. Edit: Mil0 is great too.




___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: Philosophy in present times Fri Mar 17, 2017 3:40 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Thrasymachus wrote:
Goddammit but I just fucking love this guy. Peterson I mean. Edit: Mil0 is great too.



Fantastic.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: Philosophy in present times Fri Mar 17, 2017 3:46 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
He explains exactly why I want Milo as press secretary.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: Philosophy in present times Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:41 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fixed Cross wrote:
He explains exactly why I want Milo as press secretary.

He would undoubtedly be the best press secretary in history.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: Philosophy in present times Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:43 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
When someone like Peterson already exists and has millions of interested followers, you realize that someone like Zizek is already 100% irrelevant.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: Philosophy in present times Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:50 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
'Zek (kek) had value in bringing up a new vigor for theoretical psychology. But he never was a psychologist himself, he is rather autistic in fact - as it appears. He does not learn about human realities very well. Rather a matrix exists in his mind through which he wrings humanity and comes up with interesting sounding sentences, which spark thought in an intelligent human encountering this style for the first time.

Peterson is actually a kind of Socrates. I mean that in a good way.



Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: turns of phrase Fri Feb 03, 2017 1:43 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
"We should not be afraid of movement or competence; it is required to make necessary turns."

- Runeclaim



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Drops_Of_Jupiter
bowstring
bowstring


Posts : 32
Join date : 2017-02-03
Age : 57
Location : Columbus, Ohio USA


PostSubject: Re: turns of phrase Fri Feb 03, 2017 2:34 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I dislike fear and do my best to throw it a side. However, fear is not something that is a should or should not. It is an emotion, a feeling. The Runeclaim quote says, "We should not be afraid." The quote would be better to have started with, "Don't be afraid.."

Please don't tell people how they "should" feel.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail https://www.facebook.com/debbie.styers
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida


PostSubject: Re: turns of phrase Sat Feb 04, 2017 12:25 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Yeah, fear is a favorite concept of mine.

It is an instinct. It helps us while we are in our life learning phase. But at some point I think we should have acquired enough knowledge of life so that we can throw away most, if not all, of our fears. Understanding replaces most fears. Understanding inspires respect and this respect can replace fear.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Drops_Of_Jupiter
bowstring
bowstring


Posts : 32
Join date : 2017-02-03
Age : 57
Location : Columbus, Ohio USA


PostSubject: Re: turns of phrase Sat Feb 04, 2017 2:03 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Sisyphus wrote:
Yeah, fear is a favorite concept of mine.

It is an instinct. It helps us while we are in our life learning phase. But at some point I think we should have acquired enough knowledge of life so that we can throw away most, if not all, of our fears. Understanding replaces most fears. Understanding inspires respect and this respect can replace fear.

Sadly, most of us find a comfort zone and never re-test the boundaries....

I think fear needs to be felt every now and again to ensure "we are being all we can be."
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail https://www.facebook.com/debbie.styers
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida


PostSubject: Re: turns of phrase Sat Feb 04, 2017 7:04 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Drops_Of_Jupiter wrote:

Sadly, most of us find a comfort zone and never re-test the boundaries....

I think fear needs to be felt every now and again to ensure "we are being all we can be."

True that. Now in old age I have my comfort zones. But I have said before, we each should test our capabilities and capacities now and then just to see if anything has changed.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: turns of phrase Sat Feb 04, 2017 7:53 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Sisyphus wrote:
Yeah, fear is a favorite concept of mine.

It is an instinct. It helps us while we are in our life learning phase. But at some point I think we should have acquired enough knowledge of life so that we can throw away most, if not all, of our fears. Understanding replaces most fears. Understanding inspires respect and this respect can replace fear.

Fear is a hormonal means of greasing the organism to respond to certain situations naturally. In a society like ours it impedes more often than it serves. And yet to release all fears is irrational, as there are many unknown unknowns that we may have to be alert for when they arrive into the sphere of knowns.

Vigilance. That is the aspect of what once was fear in apes, that we men must maintain. But make no mistake, vigilance is a daughter of fear, and certainly no stranger.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida


PostSubject: Re: turns of phrase Sun Feb 05, 2017 12:18 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
[quote="Fixed Cross"]
Sisyphus wrote:

Fear is a hormonal means of greasing the organism to respond to certain situations naturally. In a society like ours it impedes more often than it serves. And yet to release all fears is irrational, as there are many unknown unknowns that we may have to be alert for when they arrive into the sphere of knowns.

Vigilance. That is the aspect of what once was fear in apes, that we men must maintain. But make no mistake, vigilance is a daughter of fear, and certainly no stranger.

No serious problem with your first paragraph. However, your "release all fears" is questionable. Are we releasing (ignoring) our fears or are we replacing our fears with knowledge, understanding and respect? I prefer the latter.

But I do agree, if we must remain vigilant there is obviously something we fear that we must remain vigilant for. But really, we don't need to fear the lion anymore. Not many of them roaming around free. But there are a lot of stupid people.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Thismare89



Posts : 1
Join date : 2017-03-18


PostSubject: Re: turns of phrase Sat Mar 18, 2017 5:39 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
return man 3 hacked Fear can convert into power.


Last edited by Thismare89 on Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:21 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida


PostSubject: Re: turns of phrase Sun Mar 19, 2017 2:33 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Thismare89 wrote:
Fear can convert into power.

But generally that power will be used irrationally.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: turns of phrase Sun Mar 19, 2017 6:36 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Thismare89 wrote:
Fear can convert into power.

How?
Image
For behold, all acts of love and pleasure are my rituals
User avatar
Jakob
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 6100
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:23 pm
Location: look at my suit

Re: The Philosophers

Postby Jakob » Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:10 am

Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Joy in Truth Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:22 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Die Wahrheit zu sagen, wenn die Unwahrheit herrscht, ist mit so viel Vergnügen gemischt, dass der Mensch ihretwegen das Exil, ja noch Schlimmeres erwählt.

"To speak the truth, when the lie rules, is mixed with so much joy, that the person will for its sake choose exile or even worse."

- Nietzsche, notebooks, fall 1876



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida


PostSubject: Re: Joy in Truth Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:55 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I stopped telling lies a long time ago. I couldn't remember which lies I had told which people so I just said "to hell with it" and started telling the truth. Some people didn't like it and wanted me to return to lying. I refused.







Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Critique my concerns about Trump Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:42 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
1) Trump made a statement indicating he is aware of Hilary's connection to missing children in Haiti, these children being taken by the thousands for the sex trade, https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KMJoNl2RHIU this is related to Pizzagate of course, and some of it may be untrue or baseless conspiracy thinking but I've looked into it as much as I can stand to do, and it seems quite possibly true. Indeed Trump is making a joke here, seems to be joking about her involvement in this.

2) which brings me to my second point that Trump has made seriously fucked up sexual comments about his daughter, in more that one occasion. It's hard to fathom a father even being capable of saying those things about his daughter, especially when she was still a child. Which leads me to my third point,

3) Trump visited Epstein's pedo-sex mansion and flew on his sex plane "Lolita Express". Old interviews with Trump show he was good friends with Epstein, but after the sex scandals broke Trump distanced himself from him. Trump's lawyer even claimed they had no connection, which according to previous interviews was a blatant lie.

4) this is all connected into the following: Trump did not call out Bill Clinton for visiting Epstein's pedo-sex mansion (Bill Clinton went there over 20 known times), and more importantly the leftist media who would stop at nothing to attack Trump personally and demean his character, never once mentioned his known connection to Epstein. Why is this? Most likely because it's not just Trump but so many powerful politicians that are connected into that.

5) Trump's current wife (actually his fourth wife) slipped in an interview and alluded to the fact that she was a prostitute when they met. I can't find the clip right now but I've seen it.

6) leaving that stuff behind for a moment, Trump knows the Clintons and has been quite friendly with them. It's very hard to imagine that he is really this obstinate, independent person not beholden to anyone but himself and really a true political outsider, although yes that is possible. But what I see is also possible and perhaps more likely is that Trump is friendly with the Clintons and others in positions of political power, and he basically just knew what to say and how to act to "be a politician himself. He has plenty of acting experience, he knows how to play a crowd and what to say to win the favor of his crowd. And back when I first disliked Trump I catalogued times when he blatantly lied, even knowing full well that the previous things he had said (about which he was now lying) were on video for anyone to see.

6) Trump is not following through on repealing Obamacare. This is very important, Obamacare is perhaps the worst piece of legislation signed by Obama except for maybe the NDAA which establishes an Orwellian Ministry of Truth, making the government responsible for determining which statements in the media and public published discourse are true or untrue, and sanctioning the development of propaganda to that end.

Obamacare is 20,000 pages of regulations, and massive unfunded liabilities to "care for people" at government expense; not only this but it also is a massive payout to insurance companies, a violation of the first amendment by mandating everyone purchase a product (health insurance), and basically hands over healthcare services to crony monopoly control.

If Trump were for real he would be rejecting the neocons like Ryan and others pushing their own "Obamacare Lite" which basically capitulates to the principle of the ACA, and will only make it worse by leaving in place massive liabilities while undercutting the funding streams for them. They are voting on Thursday on this Ryancare bil, and I hope it fails hard. But it is telling that Trump is actually championing it and trying to get other Republicans on board.


Anyway these are my concerns so far. I hope I am wrong about all of them. Please critique them, because I am hoping they can be somehow discredited as critiques. I want to think Trump is legit too, but I am having my doubts.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: Critique my concerns about Trump Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:50 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
In addition, Trump's budget is basically debt-neutral, because all of his cuts are compensated by increases to the military.

Both Obama and Trump each ran on being anti-establishment and critical of foreign wars, yet both of them seriously increased military spending.. at least that is what Trump wants to do, if his budget passes.

The current situation:




^ Would an anti-war candidate really be adding to that?



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: Critique my concerns about Trump Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:19 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Yeah its looking dirty.

It's gonna get fucking messy if he allows for this bill.

On the sex issues, I dont want to say too much, dont want this site to get traction on account of that shit, thats the worst - but it looks like everyone has something really bad over everyone elses head. We can do the game theory math based on this and conclude that all fighting will stay indirect, as direct attacks would result in jailtime for big players, which would result injailtime for other big players.




___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: Critique my concerns about Trump Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:58 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I also do not want BTL to get bogged down like that either. Trump represents something positive, even if he himself is somehow compromised in some ways, his movement is still a Sign. But you're right about the healthcare bill, Trump could easily be a 1-term president if he doesn't back off this and find real solutions. Fuck the establishment, that is the sentiment that got him elected, and rightly so.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: Critique my concerns about Trump Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:34 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
It's not even the negativity, it's also the search terms and all that, it's all so nasty, that world of the sexually depraved.
It should not surprise us that a thick slimy layer of it pervades the entire establishment, and certainly Trumps overt "lewdness" should be mightily uncomfortable for any of the more serious deviants. Likely he has some blackmail boxes as life insurance.

I'm glad to hear you say Trump stands for something positive- he still does - and his victory is definitely positive, but I hope he does not turn out to be just 'the lesser evil', rather than an actual good president.

Regardless though, change has set in. If Trump doesn't push through, we'll be guaranteed another couple of years of upheaval, and eventually the extortion system is going to tumble.

Sometimes I think the white house just has some kind of electrical signal running through it that makes drones out of people.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: Critique my concerns about Trump Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:42 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
He should have permanently relocated to Trump Tower. Fuck the White House.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: Critique my concerns about Trump Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:45 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Thrasymachus wrote:
He should have permanently relocated to Trump Tower. Fuck the White House.

Maybe he still will. If enough threats and intruders come in it would be easy to justify it.
The protests he'll get around Trump Tower would be like the pious circling that odd black cube in Mecca.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: Critique my concerns about Trump Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:05 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fuck mecca too.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: Critique my concerns about Trump Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:42 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
It was not meant as a compliment.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: Critique my concerns about Trump Tue Mar 21, 2017 3:11 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Haha yeah, it would be impossible to compliment something like that. That's why apparently it only inspires mindless prostration.




Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Ode to the Real Women Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:24 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster




___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: Ode to the Real Women Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:29 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
She almost smiles a couple of times, but otherwise looks pretty bored throughout. Haha, gvd damn.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: Ode to the Real Women Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:40 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster




___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: Ode to the Real Women Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:42 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster




___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: Ode to the Real Women Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:42 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Ibanez makes good guitars. I should know, I have one.






Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: What is academia? Thu Mar 09, 2017 1:24 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Academia is joy-taking in the abandonment of mind.

But as it turns out, a mind is needed for joy to exist.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida


PostSubject: Re: What is academia? Fri Mar 10, 2017 12:14 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I practice empty-minded meditation.

This is beyond joy and sorrow.

Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: What is academia? Fri Mar 10, 2017 3:32 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I don't believe in "emptying" the mind. But I've done those meditations myself, years ago.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida


PostSubject: Re: What is academia? Fri Mar 10, 2017 2:16 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Thrasymachus wrote:
I don't believe in "emptying" the mind. But I've done those meditations myself, years ago.

I don't force it. Sometimes it happens and sometimes it doesn't.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: What is academia? Fri Mar 10, 2017 3:34 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I look the minds eye in its eye and it breaks into silence.
But it is within thunder.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: What is academia? Fri Mar 10, 2017 3:39 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Academia is just breeding.

The Greek notion of an education in different disciplines was simply a way to learn discipline. These fields were means, not ends.
Academia in these early days was a means to hone men out of beasts.

Perhaps one day, when Pezer is back, some shit can be re infused with a vigor that is long lost. But for now let the fever rage until it breaks. Memes are the only language to approach the absurdity.

Memes and cold chicken.
Image
For behold, all acts of love and pleasure are my rituals
User avatar
Jakob
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 6100
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:23 pm
Location: look at my suit

Re: The Philosophers

Postby Jakob » Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:15 am

___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida


PostSubject: Re: What is academia? Sat Mar 11, 2017 12:38 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fixed Cross wrote:
I look the minds eye in its eye and it breaks into silence.
But it is within thunder.

Yes, the monkey mind is what it is. Hard to tame that beast. But in reality it is only the mind stating that there is still unfinished business.

The less importance we place on our unfinished business the quieter the thunder becomes.

Or. the sooner we can finish our unfinished business the quieter the thunder becomes.

To sleep without dreams and awake without worry. This is a mind at peace.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida


PostSubject: Re: What is academia? Sat Mar 11, 2017 12:43 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fixed Cross wrote:
Academia is just breeding.

The Greek notion of an education in different disciplines was simply a way to learn discipline. These fields were means, not ends.
Academia in these early days was a means to hone men out of beasts.

I wish I had had a good education when I was young. I quit school in the 10th grade to join the Army. That was my best available option.

But I feel I have done pretty well after having awakened to the importance of having a varied base of knowledge.



Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: What is academia? Mon Apr 17, 2017 12:38 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster



^ "I was brainwashed by public schools."




Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Good versus bad Rhetoric Sat May 06, 2017 3:34 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
A nice article with a sound thesis.

https://aeon.co/essays/what-is-the-diff ... l-rhetoric

Quote :
Athens’ downfall provides us with a cautionary tale in our own era. While it would be wrong to reject a persuasive speech simply because the speaker fails to belong to our preferred political party, it would be equally wrong to think that we should accept every speech that strikes us as persuasive. Adolf Hitler’s Nuremberg Rallies of the 1920s and ’30s were highly effective propaganda tools in consolidating power for the Nazi Party and influencing the views of the German people, but the wider effects of his ability to fabricate a redeemed Germany were devastating for the country. The principle here is simple: good rhetoric is not reducible to persuasive rhetoric. Persuasion might often be the goal of the rhetorician, but if rhetoric is to serve some civic good, it must serve the people on whom it operates. Plato was the first to observe that persuasion cannot in fact be the proper end of rhetoric, since it is an open question how it serves the interests of an audience to have their views influenced by a persuasive speech.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: Good versus bad Rhetoric Sat May 06, 2017 4:57 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Very true, I would say. It is good to be persuasive, persuasiveness as such is a virtue, but that does not mean that that which is persuaded for is always good, nor that it is always good to be persuaded.

Likewise we can say that unpersuasiveness is not necessarily a vice, because it is not always bad to be unpersuasive. For example, if someone has very bad ideas then it is in their and everyone else's best interest that this person not be very persuasive.

Persuasiveness is just the way in which arguments are formulated to produce agreement and/or understanding in others. Rhetoric as an early form of marketing.



Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Blue pillers Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:53 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
What do blue pillers like typical libs, SJWs, academics, "moderates", Christian conservatives, actually fight for?

They are fighting for the right to keep believing what authority tells them. They are fighting to be able to never take responsibility for their own beliefs, emotions, thoughts, and for their own lives.

It really is that simple.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: Blue pillers Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:56 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Socialism and communism (socialism is just communism-lite) are literally the end of the idea of self-responsibility. These "people" would all vote for any politician who promised them free weekly food stamps and opiates. That is their model of "the good life".

Fuck Bernie Sanders too, that self-righteous fucking brain dead thieving retard.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: Blue pillers Mon Apr 17, 2017 7:05 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
These motherfuckers aren't even human.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida


PostSubject: Re: Blue pillers Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:42 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Thrasymachus wrote:
These motherfuckers aren't even human.
Well said.

And yes, they are socialists but don't you dare tough their money.

Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: Blue pillers Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:39 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Sisyphus wrote:
Thrasymachus wrote:
These motherfuckers aren't even human.
Well said.

And yes, they are socialists but don't you dare tough their money.


Lol.













G(v)d View previous topic View next topic Go down
Go to page : 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 Next
Author Message
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: G(v)d Mon Oct 31, 2016 10:17 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Philosophers are Gods.
Philosophers are Gods.
Philosophers are Gods.
Philosophers are Gods.
Philosophers are Gods.
Philosophers are Gods.
Philosophers are Gods.
Philosophers are Gods. Philosophers are Gods. Philosophers are Gods.
Philosophers are Gods. Philosophers are Gods.
Philosophers are Gods.
Philosophers are Gods.
Philosophers are Gods. Philosophers are Gods. Philosophers are Gods. Philosophers are Gods.
Philosophers are Gods. Philosophers are Gods.
Philosophers are Gods. Philosophers are Gods.
Philosophers are Gods. v
Philosophers are Gods. Philosophers are Gods. Philosophers are Gods. Philosophers are Gods. Philosophers are Gods.
Philosophers are Gods. Philosophers are Gods.
Philosophers are Gods. v
vPhilosophers are Gods. Philosophers are Gods. Philosophers are Gods. v
Philosophers are Gods. Philosophers are Gods. v
Philosophers are Gods.
Philosophers are Gods.



Philosophers are Gods. Philosophers are Gods.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy


Last edited by Capable on Wed Nov 02, 2016 10:45 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: G(v)d Mon Oct 31, 2016 10:20 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
H.
H.H.
H.
H.
H.H.H.H.H.

H.H.
H.
H.H.


H.H.H.H.H.

H.H.H.H.
H.
H.
H.
vH.H.H.H.H.H.
H.H.
H.
H.H.



Looking to turn my piss into wine.

Killing me just the same.

And I feel this coming over like a storm again.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: G(v)d Mon Oct 31, 2016 10:21 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
A cross is not a cross, it is a rising star.


Star


Rise







___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: G(v)d Mon Oct 31, 2016 10:31 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Etc. Etc.
Etc. Etc.Etc. Etc.Etc. Etc.
Etc. Etc.Etc. Etc.
Etc. Etc.
Etc. Etc.Etc. Etc.

Etc. Etc.Etc. Etc.Etc. Etc.
Etc. Etc.
Etc. Etc.
Etc. Etc.Etc. Etc.Etc. Etc.Etc. Etc.
Etc. Etc.Etc. Etc.Etc. Etc.Etc. Etc.Etc. Etc.Etc. Etc.Etc. Etc.Etc. Etc.
Etc. Etc.v

v
Etc. Etc.
Etc. Etc.
v
Etc. Etc.vEtc. Etc.

Etc. Etc.Etc. Etc.Etc. Etc.
v
Etc. Etc.
Etc. Etc.

vEtc. Etc.Etc. Etc.Etc. Etc.
Etc. Etc.
Etc. Etc.Etc. Etc.
Etc. Etc.Etc. Etc.
Etc. Etc.Etc. Etc.Etc. Etc.Etc. Etc.Etc. Etc.Etc. Etc.Etc. Etc.Etc. Etc.Etc. Etc.
Etc. Etc.
Etc. Etc.
Etc. Etc.Etc. Etc.vEtc. Etc.Etc. Etc.v

Etc. Etc.Etc. Etc.

Etc. Etc.
Etc. Etc.
Etc. Etc.Etc. Etc.Etc. Etc.Etc. Etc.
Etc. Etc.
Etc. Etc.

Etc. Etc.
Etc. Etc.
Etc. Etc.
Etc. Etc.Etc. Etc.Etc. Etc.Etc. Etc.
Etc. Etc.
Etc. Etc.
Etc. Etc.
v
Etc. Etc.
Etc. Etc.v
vEtc. Etc.Etc. Etc.Etc. Etc.vEtc. Etc.Etc. Etc.Etc. Etc.Etc. Etc.Etc. Etc.

v
Etc. Etc.v
vv
vvvvv
v
v
v
v
v
v
vvv
v
vv
vvvvvv
v
vv

vv
v
vv
v
vvvv

v
v
vvv
v
v
v
vvvv
v

v
v
v
v
v
v
v
v

v
vv
v
v
v
v
v
v
v
v
vvv
v
v



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: G(v)d Mon Oct 31, 2016 11:38 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.
Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.
Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.
Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.
Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.
Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.
Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.
Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.
Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.
Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.vBegging for your fatass dirty dollar.Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.

vBegging for your fatass dirty dollar.
Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.
Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.

Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.
Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.
Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.

Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.

Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.
Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.
Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.
Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.
Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.
Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.v
Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.
Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.
Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.
Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.
Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.
Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.

(ding ding dong dong bee beep)

(la la tee daa da le laa)

Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.
Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.
Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.
Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.

Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.
Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.
Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.
Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.
Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.
Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.
Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.
Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.
Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.
Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.
Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.
Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.

Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.

Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.
Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.
Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.
Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.
vv
Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.
Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.


Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.
Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.


Begging for your fatass dirty dollar.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: G(v)d Mon Oct 31, 2016 11:39 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
God should fuck himself so He feels what it feels like. To be fucked, I mean.

"Creation" . Ok then



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: G(v)d Mon Oct 31, 2016 11:50 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Lie cheat and steal.





No one is inno


cent.




RAH




(Undertow)


(Riff riff)



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: G(v)d Mon Oct 31, 2016 11:53 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
But I'm breathing so I guess I'm still alive


Even is signs seem to tell me otherwise



Do unto others what has been done to you
My lamb and martyr


For

One

Sweet

Moment

I am

Home .......




Do unto me now
What has been done to me






Even if signs seem to tell me otherwise



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: G(v)d Mon Oct 31, 2016 11:57 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster




___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: G(v)d Mon Oct 31, 2016 12:00 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Why can't we be sober? --Socrates (or Tool)



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: G(v)d Mon Oct 31, 2016 12:06 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
But my soul must be iron
Because my fear is naked



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: G(v)d Mon Oct 31, 2016 12:17 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Why don't you watch where you're wandering
Why don't you watch where you're stumbling

I mean, Jesus fucking Christ on a cracker


You're still stumbling


No one even invited you in


Suffocate

No one

Told you
To

Come



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: G(v)d Tue Nov 01, 2016 1:03 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster




___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: G(v)d Tue Nov 01, 2016 1:09 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster







___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: G(v)d Tue Nov 01, 2016 1:09 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster




___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: G(v)d Tue Nov 01, 2016 1:10 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster




___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: G(v)d Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:04 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fun fact: If you're wearing headphones, people will leave you alone, even if you're not listening to anything.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: G(v)d Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:08 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fun fact #2: Game of Thrones sucks.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: G(v)d Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:09 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fun fact #3: tigers are cool.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: G(v)d Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:10 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fun fact #4: wearing a red clown nose through airport security, with no explanation at all, is hilarious.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: G(v)d Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:13 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fun fact #5: Black Widow says love is for children, but actually Black Widow is for children.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: G(v)d Tue Nov 01, 2016 4:01 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fun fact #6: A woman's soul simply stops at a certain point.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: G(v)d Tue Nov 01, 2016 6:57 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster




___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: G(v)d Tue Nov 01, 2016 6:59 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
If a woman's soul stops at a certain point, this means it is bordered by something... hard reality contact.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
WendyDarling
arrow
arrow
avatar

Posts : 341
Join date : 2016-06-18
Location : @home


PostSubject: Re: G(v)d Tue Nov 01, 2016 9:01 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Capable wrote:
If a woman's soul stops at a certain point, this means it is bordered by something... hard reality contact.

Man.
Image
For behold, all acts of love and pleasure are my rituals
User avatar
Jakob
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 6100
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:23 pm
Location: look at my suit

Re: The Philosophers

Postby Jakob » Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:16 am

Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Image


Pezerocles wrote:

Freedom is to completely take ownership. There is no altar of excess:
excess is what we do with OUR property. What we decide to do is not
determined by what is available to us, it is determined by what we own:
excess exists only after we have made something ours, after a whatever
has been subjected by the process of valuing from self value. Do I go left?
Do I go right? This question does not exist for freedom except as a tickle.
Something being disposed of is something owned and freedom in action.
The deep darkness is not god, it is fundamentally ours. God can be owned
too! So... Ownership is freedom.


Image
Image
For behold, all acts of love and pleasure are my rituals
User avatar
Jakob
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 6100
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:23 pm
Location: look at my suit

Re: The Philosophers

Postby Jakob » Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:30 am

Message
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: The end of thinking Thu Jul 20, 2017 9:05 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Modern technology especially TV and the internet have caused a regression in thinking for most people. Smart phones made it worse. We enjoyed a brief window of time where more people were interested in thinking, maybe 10% or so of all people in the west, but that ended between the late 1990s and 2010. Thinking requires free time without distractions, and that isn't possible anymore since people are endlessly distracted by their technology.

So 10% has become 1%, probably less. Not only that but life has become such a burden of work and debt that people need the distractions even more now, and have even less free time. So basically no one thinks anymore, except us.

Oh well. RIP humanity.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida


PostSubject: Re: The end of thinking Thu Jul 20, 2017 11:55 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Well, I think I still think.


And apparently you had no one to cause you to think so you thought on your own. Self-inspired thought. You done good.

But yes, so many people believe they have so much to do that they just don't have time to be thinking. They let the Media do it for they. Sponges?

Would you believe it? I don't even own a cell phone.

But then, I don't, very often, sit around thinking about things I have no control over.

It's actually pretty nice living alone in my old age.


Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: The end of thinking Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:20 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Right, age is only feared by those who have nothing more to do, to think, to become... imagine being a "finished" being at 19. Lol.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida


PostSubject: Re: The end of thinking Fri Jul 21, 2017 12:48 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Thrasymachus wrote:
Right, age is only feared by those who have nothing more to do, to think, to become... imagine being a "finished" being at 19. Lol.

That would be sad. At 19 I was on my way to Germany for my first tour of duty there. Just beginning a life of wonderment.

Nietzsche told us to live beyond good and evil. I suggest we can live beyond death. (The death of the fear of dying.)
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: The end of thinking Fri Jul 21, 2017 2:56 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Anyone who is afraid of dying is simply not really living. But I can understand sadness over dying, having to lose others we care about. Fear of pain is also rational or at least mostly unavoidable... but fear of dying, to me that makes no sense at all.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida


PostSubject: Re: The end of thinking Fri Jul 21, 2017 11:45 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Thrasymachus wrote:
Anyone who is afraid of dying is simply not really living. But I can understand sadness over dying, having to lose others we care about. Fear of pain is also rational or at least mostly unavoidable... but fear of dying, to me that makes no sense at all.

Fears will always hold us back from doing what we naturally want to do in life. They are limiters we have allowed our fears to place upon us.

I can't say I have a fear of pain but I sure don't like pain. I prefer pleasure.

The pain of losing those we care about was spoken to very well by the Buddha. He spoke to the importance of not forming permanent attachments with others as well as to things. And in Daoism we speak of the constant changing of the Ten Thousand Things - the coming and going of material things, including people. Basically, the importance of acknowledging the natural processes of the universe.



Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: The end of thinking Sat Jul 22, 2017 7:35 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I don't believe in artificial "detachment" from meaning.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida


PostSubject: Re: The end of thinking Sat Jul 22, 2017 8:24 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Thrasymachus wrote:
I don't believe in artificial "detachment" from meaning.

Great perspective. Chuang Tzu would have enjoyed hearing that, I think.

Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: The end of thinking Thu Jul 27, 2017 6:30 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Not sure where to post this, so I will just post it here. Pretty funny.


Stranger: what do you think of Trumps transgender ban?
You: I am undecided so far. I can see how it makes sense, but I haven't studied the issue enough yet.
Stranger: its discriminatory
You: True, but everything is discriminatory, it is just a question of whether that is rational or not
Stranger: theres nothing wrong with trans people in the military, they are like you or i
You: I don't know that, because who knows if 'transgender' is really a mental health issue or not? It seems like it probably is. Mentally ill people are not allowed into the military. Also, Trump consulted with his top military people and I am sure they are aware of any issues or problems associated with transgenders in the military.
Stranger: who cares your gender! trans people are people too, you just hate them cause you dontknow them
You: Who cares about gender? Well these "trans" people sure seem to care about it, a lot more than the rest of us. Also there is no such thing as "transgender", there are only two genders and you cannot change them because this is your chromosomes. But you can definitely alter your gender expression.
Stranger: fuck you, bigot
You: Haha.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida


PostSubject: Re: The end of thinking Thu Jul 27, 2017 10:38 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
That conversation didn't go well, did it?

The military has been screwed up every since the draft was ended. That's the early 1970s.

They have had to constantly lower prerequisites in order to get the units' positions filled.

Won't be long they will be allowing chimps to enlist.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: The end of thinking Fri Jul 28, 2017 2:46 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Yes, chimps and droids, cybernetically enhanced chimps - with six genders, fifteen phalli, seventeen vaginal orifices and no ears or noses, to strategically upset the enemy into a bout of disgusted laughter to the end of having them all choke in their vomit...

it is highly advanced strategy man.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida


PostSubject: Re: The end of thinking Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:55 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fixed Cross wrote:
Yes, chimps and droids, cybernetically enhanced chimps - with six genders, fifteen phalli, seventeen vaginal orifices and no ears or noses, to strategically upset the enemy into a bout of disgusted laughter to the end of having them all choke in their vomit...

it is highly advanced strategy man.

Well, you went a bit further that I did but I can relate to what you said.

I mean, governments do have to have someone or some thing to do their killing for them.

Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: The end of thinking Sat Jul 29, 2017 4:13 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Cybernetic multigenders. I should get the patent.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida


PostSubject: Re: The end of thinking Sat Jul 29, 2017 11:52 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fixed Cross wrote:
Cybernetic multigenders. I should get the patent.

You would become the wealthy man on the planet.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Parodites
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 757
Join date : 2011-12-11


PostSubject: Re: The end of thinking Sat Jul 29, 2017 12:01 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
"He spoke to the importance of not forming permanent attachments with others as well as to things."

Fucking, what's the point of any of this then.



___________
A sik þau trûðu


Nisus ait, "Dine hunc ardorem mentibus addunt,
Euryale, an sua cuique deus fit dira cupido?"

Have the gods set this ruling passion in my heart,
or does each man's furious passion become his god?
- Virgil.


It is not opium which makes me work but its absence, and in order for me to feel its absence it must
from time to time be present.-- Antonin Artaud
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: The end of thinking Sat Jul 29, 2017 1:08 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Parodites wrote:
"He spoke to the importance of not forming permanent attachments with others as well as to things."

Fucking, what's the point of any of this then.

All we ever have are our attachments to others, and to 'things'.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Parodites
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 757
Join date : 2011-12-11


PostSubject: Re: The end of thinking Sat Jul 29, 2017 1:21 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I didn't leave my house or interact with another human for literally a decade, the only thing I got from the no attachment thing was a lot of free time, which allowed me to get a lot done I guess. But there is no wisdom in it.

What is love if it isn't a permanent attachment. Maybe there was wisdom in my refusal of attachment, maybe I was wiser once but, if love makes you unwise, "wisdom requires moderation, as does everything else."



___________
A sik þau trûðu


Nisus ait, "Dine hunc ardorem mentibus addunt,
Euryale, an sua cuique deus fit dira cupido?"

Have the gods set this ruling passion in my heart,
or does each man's furious passion become his god?
- Virgil.


It is not opium which makes me work but its absence, and in order for me to feel its absence it must
from time to time be present.-- Antonin Artaud
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: The end of thinking Sat Jul 29, 2017 1:51 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Yeah, the whole Eastern religious thing of "no attachments" is just a cop out, an excuse to allow the mind and heart to die a quiet death. Return to the nothingness from which you came. Entropy of thanatos.

Basically it is lazy philosophizing. The concept of nirvana is the same, you try to get rid of your desires and attachments in order to achieve... what? Some sort of ideal, perfect and eternal state. Yeah, that is called death, and it isn't a "state" of anything.

The philosophy of no attachments is an ideological means of killing thought, reason, passion, and emotional honesty, and I am sure this serves a purpose, namely to make people complacent so they can be ruled and controlled more easily. "Oh well, life is shit, but life is an illusion anyway! Just disassociate yourself from your suffering!" Lol.

Why is thought, reason, passion, (and desire), and emotional honesty difficult? Because these demand something of us, these demand we make mistakes and own those mistakes so we can learn the next time around. They mandate a progressive journey into self-knowledge and correcting our errors, both cognitively and emotionally. That is the true path, to admit our errors and work harder to own and fix them. This also requires humility, which means real humility rather than they fake cop out of "well we all die, life is an illusion, don't have attachments, desires are not real, blah blah blah" and all that fucking bullshit.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: The end of thinking Sat Jul 29, 2017 1:54 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
When faced with problems there are two options: either you honestly address the problem and try to fix it, which is hard, or you just close your eyes and go "la la la" and pretend the problem doesn't exist, which is easy.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida


PostSubject: Re: The end of thinking Sat Jul 29, 2017 11:23 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Well, consider that a vacuum cleaner is useless without attachments.

This attachment concept has been severely messed up by the "new age" philosophers.

The Buddha proposed it in the light of not making "permanent" attachments with things and others as if they were a part of who we are. There is nothing in the universe that is permanent.

We have to understand that things are going to break and people are going to die and that is just the way of the nature of the universe.

Sure, we should hold those we care about in love. We should care for the things that make our life easier. But we must understand that our life will continue until it is our time to transmutate.

Because we lose a loved one or because we lose something that was of great value to us isn't grounds for us to alter our way of life. We can love other people and we can buy new things.

Its all just the passing of time. When we try to hold too tightly we will always face great suffering when we lose that whatever.

The end of suffering was the Buddha's major goal.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: The end of thinking Sun Jul 30, 2017 1:21 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Attachment is the basic category of existing. We are attached to reality, by definition. Eastern philosophy is really about making better attachments over time, but isn't honest enough to come out and say that. It just cloaks it in "attachment / desire is bad" rhetoric.

Denial is never an answer. You should always confront reality and improve it over time. That is truth-seeking, and the ontological basis of existence as such.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: The end of thinking Sun Jul 30, 2017 1:22 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
If you have good things to attach yourself to, then more attachment = better. If you have bad things to attach yourself to, then more attachment = bad.

So obviously the problem isn't "attachment" itself.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: The end of thinking Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:08 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Yes, but not until VO was there any philosophy of attachment.
No philosophy could prescribe attachment without limiting.

Buddha was very attached - to his peace of mind. A western philosopher doesn't have that attachment.

This is what didn't work for me in Buddhism, this insistence on peace. Fuck peace. I want life, which includes struggle with contradiction, or even is that.

Buddhism tends to hone in on those attachments we can't shed, like breath. It then becomes a religion of breathing, attaching with extreme intensity to the breath, seeking all value and meaning in it. And that works pretty well, but it is certainly not shedding attachment, it is focussing attachment on something one can control relatively well.

Gravity is the basic Zen attachment. Zen meditation consists largely of physically being as a mass.






___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida


PostSubject: Re: The end of thinking Sun Jul 30, 2017 11:36 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Thrasymachus wrote:
If you have good things to attach yourself to, then more attachment = better. If you have bad things to attach yourself to, then more attachment = bad.

So obviously the problem isn't "attachment" itself.

Yeah!

What more can I say? You did that very well.



Drops_Of_Jupiter
bowstring
bowstring


Posts : 32
Join date : 2017-02-03
Age : 57
Location : Columbus, Ohio USA


PostSubject: Re: G(v)d Fri May 05, 2017 6:13 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Jim - do wars ever bring about peace?
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail https://www.facecrook
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida


PostSubject: Re: G(v)d Sat May 06, 2017 12:49 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Drops_Of_Jupiter wrote:
Jim - do wars ever bring about peace?

Well, the USA is at peace with Japan and Germany. So I guess I have to say, "Yes, sometimes."

But we are not at peace with North Korea or most of the Middle East countries.

The USA's involvement in Korea, Vietnam, and the Middle East have all been failures because they were fought based on lies by our government. Even winning a war does not imply peace if the war was dishonorable.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: G(v)d Sat May 06, 2017 3:10 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
The US seems to have done better in wars they did not themselves begin.
Perhaps this is roughly the law: either you start a war, or you win one.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: G(v)d Sat May 06, 2017 4:54 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fixed Cross wrote:
The US seems to have done better in wars they did not themselves begin.
Perhaps this is roughly the law: either you start a war, or you win one.

Great observation. I love the simplicity of that maxim:

"Either you start a war, or win one."




___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida


PostSubject: Re: G(v)d Sat May 06, 2017 7:31 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fixed Cross wrote:
The US seems to have done better in wars they did not themselves begin.
Perhaps this is roughly the law: either you start a war, or you win one.

Yes. Very well said.







Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: I want more women's equality Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:30 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Real equality would mean women also have to struggle and suffer and work equally as men do. Not being sheltered and expecting things for free. The collapse of the welfare state, for example. The end of alimony. The end of quotas and affirmative action, which is far more insulting and harmful to women especially than to men. The ideal of self-ownership and self-responsibility.

Using sex and flirtation as a weapon is a good example of why women aren't equal, and don't want to be. Not all women of course, but this applies to the ones who do these things. We've all known women like this. Luckily I stayed away from these women, but others haven't been so lucky.

Not equality of outcomes but equality of demands, of self-value self-reliance. Not using others for one's own gain at their expense; any man who uses others for his own gain and at the ruin of the other is basically just a whoring woman, trying to steal "free" stuff from reality at high irrationality of cost, at the mutual destruction of truth. The proper nature of women is to give, not to demand and take. And this holds for men as well -- that is the gender equality that I want.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: I want more women's equality Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:50 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster




___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: I want more women's equality Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:58 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Self-responsibility brings self-respect.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: I want more women's equality Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:59 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster

http://www.thetower.org/wp-content/uplo ... 75x320.jpg

just took it from google images, didn't read the article but here it is - I think that's real feminism in the Socialist sense where they had communities.
I was in one of these for a few months in 1998. Pretty nice living, especially if you can get foreign kids to do your chores for a bed, their crappy food (Jews cannot cook) and 1 shekel an hour. Lol.

http://www.thetower.org/article/some-zi ... fulfilled/



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida


PostSubject: Re: I want more women's equality Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:08 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Thrasymachus wrote:
Self-responsibility brings self-respect.

I totally agree with this.

And yes, I have known many women who have earned their self-respect.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: I want more women's equality Thu May 18, 2017 12:12 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster




___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida


PostSubject: Re: I want more women's equality Thu May 18, 2017 12:58 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Want respect? Earn it!
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: I want more women's equality Fri May 19, 2017 1:25 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
That's what I'm saying.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: I want more women's equality Fri May 19, 2017 1:56 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Thrasymachus wrote:



^ this guy is very perceptive and articulate. The only thing I find to disagree with in what he says here is the idea that only people with kids should vote. But I understand his point.

The idea that people shouldn't be able to vote if they take more then they contribute in taxes/welfare is another tricky idea. I understand the reasoning here, but in practice I can't see that working. We don't want to move from one sort of authoritarianism/repression to another. I think we have to win on the basis of ideas, which requires all people participating in the process, and voting is just one way that ideas are thrown together to product an outcome on the basis of those ideas. The decline of standards and rationality is easily observable when you let these people vote, and because it's easy to see it's also easier to refute its errors.

So now it's just a race between the natural process of rising ideation to a higher truth standard in the open discourse, versus the importing of millions of uneducated non-Western people. Truth process within the west versus demographics.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida


PostSubject: Re: I want more women's equality Fri May 19, 2017 11:05 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Thrasymachus wrote:
That's what I'm saying.

I'm glad we get to agree on something now and again.
Image
For behold, all acts of love and pleasure are my rituals
User avatar
Jakob
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 6100
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:23 pm
Location: look at my suit

Re: The Philosophers

Postby Jakob » Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:34 am

Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Reality Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:36 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
To a good extent, we are what we appear to be. After all, the beings that interact with us act with respect to us in the way that they do because of our appearance.
Naturally, the mode of perception of the perceiver determines halfway the appearance. The other half is what we project.

Evolution therefore also happens in terms of appearances.
Whether a male is seen as fit for the eggs of a female is determined by how the male appears. Hence, the mating dance, the peacocks feathers, and the wide proliferation of forms throughout the animal and plant kingdoms.

So, what we can accomplish determines on what we project.
What we can project relies on what we are.
What we do project is determined largely by what is projected to us.
Often we do not know what we are capable of projecting - and with that, what we are capable of becoming.

"Adapt to the venom"
that was what the snake told Eve,
the forbidden knowledge of how we got where we are.

Taboo, which can only be released in the daemonic reaching. This is why we do what we do as a species, why we build what we build and make it so big and dangerous. It has nothing to do with what we would be able to make use of, even less what is necessarily to our benefit, it simply follows from the fact that can't possibly do anything besides create beyond ourselves, and this terrifies us now, and thus this building is suffused with terrible motives and dank tastes.

Capitalistic growth is the same as militaristic proliferation, and both of it is necessary for us to not go insane. Unless or until an earthly logos is found.





___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida


PostSubject: Re: Reality Wed Aug 02, 2017 12:03 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Agree that others respond to us according to how they perceive us.

So the image of our self we are projecting should be within our capabilities to reify.








Author Message
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: The joy of the gods Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:05 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
"perhaps this is the true joy of the gods, that they can create perfection."

a helrunar



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida


PostSubject: Re: The joy of the gods Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:30 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fixed Cross wrote:
"perhaps this is the true joy of the gods, that they can create perfection."

Then why haven't they done so thus far?
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: The joy of the gods Mon Aug 07, 2017 3:36 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Excuse you?
What about me?



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida


PostSubject: Re: The joy of the gods Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:03 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fixed Cross wrote:
Excuse you?
What about me?

Sorry about overlooking you.

Okay, aside from you, I see little that qualifies as perfect to all observers.



Author Message
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: What is liberal/leftism? Wed Jul 12, 2017 5:20 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Many artists and writers and 'emotional' people are on the left. Why?

I have a theory that liberal/leftism is a symptom of how mental energy-effort is being used (or not used), specifically that mentality as a whole is curbed so that mental effort can be allocated in one direction only, toward one's domain of art for example, so that there is a pool of such energy able to be utilized toward one area. Stephen King is well known for hating Trump and conservatives for example, and despite seeming highly intelligent he is unable to see how liberal leftism fails intellectually when compared to conservatism. I also used to hate conservatism, back when I was more actively reading and writing philosophy, and also using mental and emotional energy on my job.

I was literally blind to the intellectual deficits of my default leftist position, because I wasn't allocating enough mental energy to process the intellectual sphere of the leftist ideas. Actually it is the conservative, right-wing idea set that is the default, intellectually speaking, but I couldn't see that. Why not? Simply lack of mental resources. They were all being used for specific artistic and philosophical tasks.

As for emotions, many emotional people are on the left because their emotionality requires that mentality not overly exert itself, because that exertion would lead to a breakdown of liberal left ideation, and liberal left ideation is just a "safe space" protecting narrow efforts. Emotions themselves are not curbed by conservative thinking, but it appears that they are from the perspective of a default leftism because the safe space of leftist mentality has been falsely associated with emotionality as such.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: What is liberal/leftism? Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:29 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
It's striking that humanity and especially the west is going to be brought down by one idea, one set of work, ultimately one person..... Marx.

Maybe on the tombstone of humanity it will read, "A species with such promise but which was tricked and betrayed, and ultimately destroyed forever, by one of its own."



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida


PostSubject: Re: What is liberal/leftism? Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:40 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
The real problem is that most have been doing too many drugs and their brain is fried. No hope for recovery.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: What is liberal/leftism? Thu Jul 13, 2017 7:14 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
"September 2013
Southern Poverty Law Center Denialism on Frankfurt School
It’s an interesting question. Why is it that the left doesn’t want mainstream liberals to know the history of the left?

Even taking it a step further, why try to convince those liberals that conservative discussion of that history is a conspiracy theory?

For a decade, the Southern Poverty Law Center and others on the left have been trying to hide and distract from one of the main origins of both radical academia and media hostility towards capitalism: the ideology of cultural Marxism and Critical Theory that arose from the Frankfurt School.

The SPLC and others dismiss the facts about the German think-tank and its subsequent influence in America as a conspiracy theory. Understanding these attacks is an object lesson in how the left creates self-sustaining mythology by demonizing the people who dare expose their ideology while misdirecting their own followers as to the real story behind liberal ideas.

Organizations on the institutional left such as the Southern Poverty Law Center didn’t just appear out of nowhere or in an ideological vacuum. The SPLC in particular has a specific role of designating organizations as ‘hate groups’, often smearing mainstream conservatism by falsely tying it to tiny, violent and racist organizations.

The SLPC’s designation of what does and doesn’t constitute a hate group has clear foundations in the world of academic political correctness and censoring of speech it considers ‘racist, sexist and homophobic’; all terms that it defines in leftist terms and very selectively. For example, in the wake of last year’s shooting at the headquarters of the Family Research Council, the SLPC went out of their way to double down on it’s claim that the FRC is a ‘hate group.’

Even political correctness, however, didn’t just suddenly pop up out of thin air; it has its basis in a group of academic Marxist philosophers that came together in Germany between World War I and World War II called the Frankfurt School. Their cultural Marxist approach would go on to have a profound influence in the United States after many in the Frankfurt school fled Germany and came to America in the 1930s.

Due to the work of writers like the late Andrew Breitbart, many conservatives now have at least a passing familiarity with the Frankfurt School and their influence. Leftist groups like the Southern Poverty Law Center don’t want liberals to know this history, however, as evidenced by their disinformation campaign that pretends that conservatives who bring up the Frankfurt School are crazy racists who shouldn’t be taken seriously.

Typical of this ‘nothing to see here and you’re a nut-job for even looking’ tactic is a piece from Red Phoenix (described as ‘the newspaper of the American party of Labor’) which defines cultural Marxism as ‘a meaningless phrase used to signal that the writer or speaker has no idea what he or she is talking about’, and then says:

First, to understand cultural Marxism as a phrase is nearly impossible. The phrase itself is meaningless. Next time you find yourself in a discussion where your partner invokes cultural Marxism, ask them to define exactly what that means. Most people don’t even attempt to answer. Those that do give a definition that has nothing to do with Marxism. They may be totally convinced that cultural Marxism is destroying their society, to the point of obsession, yet they stammer and hesitate when asked for a coherent definition.
So, without stammer or hesitation: Cultural Marxism is a branch of Marxism advocated by the Frankfurt School of philosophers such as Erich Fromm, Max Horkheimer and Herbert Marcuse that focuses on cultural factors as agents for social change, as opposed to the traditional Marxist view that focused on economic factors.

That’s a short definition but one of the best summaries of the Frankfurt School and the impact it had on America is Andrew Breitbart’s highly lauded chapter entitled Breakthrough from his book Righteous Indignation. Although it may appear self-serving for this suggestion to come from a friend of Andrew Breitbart’s, nearly anyone who has read the chapter will tell you that Breitbart’s explanation of the Frankfurt School is scholarly, detailed and actually fun to read. Breitbart explains the history and significance of the Frankfurt School, cultural Marxism, critical theory and the impact on contemporary issues such as political correctness and multiculturalism. It’s a must-read for anyone interested in learning more about the influence of these ideas on our national politics.

In 2003, the Southern Poverty Law Center made a preemptive strike against anyone exposing the Frankfurt School in an essay by Bill Berkowitz entitled ‘Cultural Marxism’ Catching On. Although it was published a decade ago, the article has been referenced in many other pieces on the same subject; such is the power of the Southern Poverty Law Center brand on the left.

An in-depth dissection of the article is warranted, since the article is frequently cited by those on the left who are keen to sweep the facts about the Frankfurt School under the rug.

Take the following paragraph from the SPLC article that tosses buzzwords likes racist and extremist in with accusations that anyone looking into the Frankfurt school is anti-Semitic. Berkowitz writes:

Right-wing ideologues, racists and other extremists have jazzed up political correctness and repackaged it — in its most virulent form, as an anti-Semitic theory that identifies Jews in general and several Jewish intellectuals in particular as nefarious, communistic destroyers. These supposed originators of “cultural Marxism” are seen as conspiratorial plotters intent on making Americans feel guilty and thus subverting their Christian culture.
The charge that discussing the Frankfurt School is anti-Semitic gets raised a number of times by those like the Southern Poverty Law Center wishing the bury the truth, so let’s dispense with it as soon as possible. In short, the Jewish heritage of the Frankfurt school is irrelevant. It’s equally true that the major figures at the Frankfurt School were all Jewish and also that some of the major figures exposing the Frankfurt School such as Andrew Breitbart and David Horowitz are also Jewish. Anti-Semitism is a false, collectivist view that has no more place in any legitimate argument than any other form of actual racism trotted out by tribal mentalities. However, in exactly the same way that it would be invalid to criticize the ideas of the Frankfurt philosophers on the basis of them being Jewish, it’s equally invalid to exempt them from any criticism for that reason.

The SPLC throws in the charge of anti-Semitism in its attempt to hide the truth about the Frankfurt School for one reason; it’s exactly the kind of politically correct smear that is the modus operand of the SPLC throughout their work. It’s no small irony that it’s the exactly the technique made possible by the Frankfurt School ideology.

As the Southern Poverty Law Center article continues, they use a number of subtle (and not so subtle) linguistic tricks to create the utterly false notion that the Frankfurt School is some kind of boogeyman invented by conservatives. Take the next paragraph and note that they also continue to push the ‘anti-Semitic’ notion:

In a nutshell, the theory posits that a tiny group of Jewish philosophers who fled Germany in the 1930s and set up shop at Columbia University in New York City devised an unorthodox form of “Marxism” that took aim at American society’s culture, rather than its economic system.
The first alarm bell goes off over the use of the phrase ‘the theory posits’ in a sentence that goes on to factually describe the Frankfurt School philosophers. There’s not one thing in that sentence that is theoretical or in the least bit in factual dispute but describing it as a ‘theory’ gives the Southern Poverty Law Center audience the impression some of it could just be made up by wacked out right-wingers.

Next, note the use of scare quote around the word “Marxism”, which has the same goal of trying to give the reader the impression that maybe those crazy right-wingers are tossing the word Marxist around loosely, as some sort of insult rather than a 100% factual descriptor that’s beyond question.

Just as one example that the members of the Frankfurt school considered themselves Marxists, here’s a video interview with Herbert Marcuse explaining in his own words the group is firmly in the Marxist tradition despite their criticism of some aspect of Karl Marx’s original theories. Please note that the video link is presented here as a quick & easy way to confirm the Frankfurt School’s self-avowed Marxism, not to suggest the SPLC writer did or didn’t see it. The fact that the Frankfurt School is made of up self avowed Marxists is so clearly beyond any dispute that it’s easily confirmed by even the slightest amount of research.

As just one other example, here’s the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy as it defines Critical Theory:

“Critical Theory” in the narrow sense designates several generations of German philosophers and social theorists in the Western European Marxist tradition known as the Frankfurt School.
However, like a wily attorney trying to plant reasonable doubt about the guilt of a confessed suspect, the SPLC wants their readers to believe that ‘Marxist’ is just a wild accusation. Note the repetition of ‘theory’, charges of anti-Semitism and scare quotes in the next paragraph of Southern Poverty Law Center article:

The theory holds that these self-interested Jews — the so-called “Frankfurt School” of philosophers — planned to try to convince mainstream Americans that white ethnic pride is bad, that sexual liberation is good, and that supposedly traditional American values — Christianity, “family values,” and so on — are reactionary and bigoted. With their core values thus subverted, the theory goes, Americans would be quick to sign on to the ideas of the far left.
Once again, the SLPC uses the word theory at the top of a paragraph that is describing undisputed facts.

Marcuse was the philosophical hero of the New Left in the 1960s; at marches in Paris, they carried banners that read “Marx, Mao and Marcuse.” As Andrew Breitbart described Herbert Marcuse in Righteous Indignation:

Marcuse’s mission was to dismantle American society by using diversity and “multiculturalism” as crowbars with which to pry the structure apart, piece by piece. He wanted to set blacks in opposition to whites, set all “victim groups” in opposition to the society at large. Marcuse’s theory of victim groups as the new proletariat, combined with Horkheimer’s critical theory, found an outlet in academia, where it became the basis for the post-structural movement–Gender Studies, LGBT/”Queer” Studies, African-American Studies, Chicano Studies, etc. All of these “Blank Studies” brazenly describe their mission as tearing down traditional Judeo-Christian values and the accepted traditions of Western culture, and placing in their stead a moral relativism that equates all cultures and all philosophies–except for Western civilization, culture, and philosophy, which are “exploitative” and “bad.”
Is there any doubt whatsoever that Americans influenced by Frankfort School ideas on American ‘racism’ and sexual liberation (Marcuse coined the phrase “Make Love, Not War”) quickly ‘signed up’ for the radical anti-war movement of the late 1960s? It’s equally obvious that the various cultural studies programs that sprouted in that era have thrived in academia in the past fifty years and that such programs have had a tremendous political influence, seen in contemporary news stories ranging from the Trayvon Martin shooting to immigration reform.

This is what the Southern Poverty Law Center calls ‘theory’; the very notion of pointing out the existence of political correctness and multiculturalism and pointing out the clear origins. The coup d’ grace is that SPLC actually uses political correctness in their attempt to claim that the Frankfurt School is a fever dream of conservatives; they argue anyone using the term ‘cultural Marxism’ to describe cultural Marxism is a racist lunatic to be dismissed. They write:

The very term, “cultural Marxism,” is clearly intended to conjure up xenophobic anxieties. But can a theory like this, built on the words of long-dead intellectuals who have little discernible relevance to normal Americans’ lives, really fly?
Conservatives know better. The average well-read conservative understands the Frankfurt School much better than the average well-read liberal. Such is the nature of the hermetically sealed media environment that mainstream leftists find themselves in due to groups like Southern Poverty Law Center, utilizing the ideas of the Frankfurt School.

Let the circle be unbroken."

By Lee Stranahan

http://thepopulist.us/2017/06/this-stor ... boyle-why/



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida


PostSubject: Re: What is liberal/leftism? Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:17 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Well, so far they are doing a good job at avoiding the truth and feeding us bullshit.

The USA is no longer a nation of Americans. It has become a nation of special interests instead of common interests.

I'm getting to the point where I don't even like the term "liberal" any more.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: What is liberal/leftism? Fri Jul 14, 2017 4:22 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
This is the proper approach to this issue T, as neuroscience, or at least a direct derivative of it.

You are pointing to something massively important. The conflation of emotionalistic thought and emotion.

The Left has this emotionalistic thought, where they don't feel and also do not think, but use the brain to construct ideas that look to them like emotions, and to which they respond in physiological ways that remind of extreme emotional distress.

Emotions are bypassed. Ive been thoroughly ravaged by this weird mind state as it has usurped the entities of most of my family members and most friends in the Netherlands - they are psychotic zombies that neither think nor fee, but use the vocabulary and gestures that have been derived in the past from emotions.

They are essentially dead, what they do is spread death around them, and it is really very problematic, as the human constitution is tough, and these people are essentially huge cockroaches now.

Because Ive been so close to them, and so tightly surrounded by them for so long, so long that I was fooled into believing that they cared for me, or for anything at all, it is a fucking torment to even gradually wake up to what Ive let them do to me, to how close they've gotten to me - so much acid and poison comes out of me just becoming aware of what certain memories really tell me. Many restroom breaks, suffice to say. Contact with such vermin is a very real sickness, and the medicine is really not a soft one, it is a torment to disentangle, as it all literally needs to come out.

It seems like the leftist brain has been coopted by the liver, it runs on bile.
And all affection for any of them that is in my system now must come out of me in the form of bile, shit, stomach acid, as Ive been caring for absolute monsters, using all my genius do delude myself into perceiving them as humans.

This is absolutely the End Time, in the sense that it was alway implicit in the enormous brainpower of the human, and the very difficult taks of using that power constructively for the benefit of oneself through the benefit of ones surroundings (self-valuing logic) is just far too much to ask for a randomly progressing process like evolution.

It was always certain, and this is I suppose how prophecies were conceived, by simple psychological skill, that humanity would have to face its ultimate enemy: its brain. The brain can be used to attain truth, but it is far better at inventing means to avoid truth. That is what leftism is, and the emotionalistic.... ectoplasma that manifests as Media and Social Justice, and all these horrors, this flows straight out of the metaphorical gates of hell, which means the abused brain.

Ive seen it proven now that these people aren't capable of having emotions. They are absolutely dead at heart. And yet they are breeding, my monstrous bile-hearted cousins are having children... meaning, since infants aren't capable of instantly being as wretched as all grown humans can be, there will be such a terrible struggle of generations to come... maybe a time is coming where children kill their parents and vice versa.

All this to the "purpose" of restoring basic human emotions. Of course non teleologically, just by necessity, by lack of alternative, the emotiolalism that spends itself in the most rotten ways drives carriers to a consequence that confronts them with the basic emotion that discerns death from life: Fear, the emotion that birthed all mass-religions.

Once this is happened, once the now plasmic sub-humanoid substance of the European Left is confronted with a shred of reality, the new time will begin, an age of complete upheaval will begin, wherein new religions are born, and from thereon, new social orders can be forged, through heated battle involving both arms and philosophy.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: What is liberal/leftism? Fri Jul 14, 2017 5:47 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fixed Cross wrote:
This is the proper approach to this issue T, as neuroscience, or at least a direct derivative of it.

You are pointing to something massively important. The conflation of emotionalistic thought and emotion.

The Left has this emotionalistic thought, where they don't feel and also do not think, but use the brain to construct ideas that look to them like emotions, and to which they respond in physiological ways that remind of extreme emotional distress.

Emotions are bypassed. Ive been thoroughly ravaged by this weird mind state as it has usurped the entities of most of my family members and most friends in the Netherlands - they are psychotic zombies that neither think nor fee, but use the vocabulary and gestures that have been derived in the past from emotions.

They are essentially dead, what they do is spread death around them, and it is really very problematic, as the human constitution is tough, and these people are essentially huge cockroaches now.

Because Ive been so close to them, and so tightly surrounded by them for so long, so long that I was fooled into believing that they cared for me, or for anything at all, it is a fucking torment to even gradually wake up to what Ive let them do to me, to how close they've gotten to me - so much acid and poison comes out of me just becoming aware of what certain memories really tell me. Many restroom breaks, suffice to say. Contact with such vermin is a very real sickness, and the medicine is really not a soft one, it is a torment to disentangle, as it all literally needs to come out.

It seems like the leftist brain has been coopted by the liver, it runs on bile.
And all affection for any of them that is in my system now must come out of me in the form of bile, shit, stomach acid, as Ive been caring for absolute monsters, using all my genius do delude myself into perceiving them as humans.

This is absolutely the End Time, in the sense that it was alway implicit in the enormous brainpower of the human, and the very difficult taks of using that power constructively for the benefit of oneself through the benefit of ones surroundings (self-valuing logic) is just far too much to ask for a randomly progressing process like evolution.

It was always certain, and this is I suppose how prophecies were conceived, by simple psychological skill, that humanity would have to face its ultimate enemy: its brain. The brain can be used to attain truth, but it is far better at inventing means to avoid truth. That is what leftism is, and the emotionalistic.... ectoplasma that manifests as Media and Social Justice, and all these horrors, this flows straight out of the metaphorical gates of hell, which means the abused brain.

Ive seen it proven now that these people aren't capable of having emotions. They are absolutely dead at heart. And yet they are breeding, my monstrous bile-hearted cousins are having children... meaning, since infants aren't capable of instantly being as wretched as all grown humans can be, there will be such a terrible struggle of generations to come... maybe a time is coming where children kill their parents and vice versa.

All this to the "purpose" of restoring basic human emotions. Of course non teleologically, just by necessity, by lack of alternative, the emotiolalism that spends itself in the most rotten ways drives carriers to a consequence that confronts them with the basic emotion that discerns death from life: Fear, the emotion that birthed all mass-religions.

Once this is happened, once the now plasmic sub-humanoid substance of the European Left is confronted with a shred of reality, the new time will begin, an age of complete upheaval will begin, wherein new religions are born, and from thereon, new social orders can be forged, through heated battle involving both arms and philosophy.

Fuck, yes. Brilliant analysis.

I've lost faith in the west. Of course I hope I'm wrong that it is doomed through and through, but I can see the writing on the wall.

When the USA becomes the USSA and Europe becomes Islamic Europe, there will be no other western rational power to oppose and defeat it, like the west defeated the USSR. Imagine the 20th century without an America or a sane Europe in existence, what would have happened? This is our very near future.

On one hand I'm sometimes sad that I don't have children, I mean really sad about it, but on the other hand it is a blessing. When I try to imagine what I would feel like for my children in this present moment in the world, with what is coming, my mind shuts down. I simply can't posit such a high value, as having one's own children to love and care for, in the context of the coming times.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: What is liberal/leftism? Fri Jul 14, 2017 7:40 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Yeah, I definitely relate to that.

I left Vienna in 2012 because my girlfriend wanted children. I just could absolutely not justify having a child in Europe at that time.
It saddened me profoundly for two to three years, but I never regretted my decision.

What makes it very hard to regret is to see the young fathers in my family. They seem as slavish, soulless as a woman in a burqa does. Leftism is like a burqa for men.

We will have to see if humanity really goes down with these aberrations, or if some sap of life can still keep hold of our species through philosophy and simple common sensical courage, which is what intact humans are prone to.

I will wager for the latter, simply because I will fight to that end with the last drop of blood in me. And to just perceive and somehow accept the nature of these ... creatures, that turns to a relief in itself, like I guess taking a long overdue shit on an existential level.

Flushing that crap is a hell of a job though. Motherfuck. Its probably safe to say these are the ugliest creatures in the Earths history.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: What is liberal/leftism? Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:53 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Stranger: how are you doing?
You: I'm good, you?
Stranger: i'm good as well.
Stranger: where do you stand politically?
You: More on the right, or so
Stranger: you fucking right wingers want to disenfranchise the poor and vulnerable.
You: No I don't
Stranger: prove you don't.
You: You made the claim, you can't demonstrate it? Guilty until proven innocence, is that it now?
Stranger: fuck off and die
Stranger has disconnected.



Kek



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida


PostSubject: Re: What is liberal/leftism? Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:40 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Yeah. Sad. Most of us don't even know what the fuck we are talking about any more. Just repeating BS we were told to believe. The thinking mind is becoming extinct.
Image
For behold, all acts of love and pleasure are my rituals
User avatar
Jakob
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 6100
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:23 pm
Location: look at my suit

Re: The Philosophers

Postby Jakob » Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:36 am

Message
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Eurofascism Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:57 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
In the EU there are laws against speech that is offensive or insensitive. You can actually go to prison for saying something "rude" or "mean", if the right person overhears you and takes you to court.

But why is there not a clause embedded in the law that stipulates if something offensive/insensitive is also true then the saying cannot be considered criminal?

Obviously such laws should not exist at all. But given that they do exist, because apparently most Europeans are pussies, these laws should at least have clauses allowing for such statements to be legally made provided that the statements can be demonstrably considered true. Namely, if you are taken to court over something you said or wrote, you should be able to defend yourself by showing that what you said happens to be true. I don't think that is how it currently works, though.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida


PostSubject: Re: Eurofascism Sat Mar 11, 2017 12:52 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
The more laws a society has the more criminals that society will have.

Governments are beginning to negate the need for gods.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: Eurofascism Sat Mar 11, 2017 6:37 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Why the fuck do Europeans not demand the right to freedom of speech? Is this simply holocaust guilt, or what?



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: Eurofascism Sat Mar 11, 2017 7:13 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Thrasymachus wrote:
Why the fuck do Europeans not demand the right to freedom of speech? Is this simply holocaust guilt, or what?

Which speech laws are you referring to?

I know of the law against incitement to hate, which goes for representatives. Its a dangerous law, but it doesn't really curb free speech.

It's just that the people themselves don't allow thinking in their midst.

World Wars in Europe is far worse a trauma than merely the holocaust, and these wars are absolutely great part of the reason of European apprehension before people-power - as Parodites had correctly identified that these two wars were peoples wars.

An entire generation of men was sacrificed in WWI, just to have an equally bad war ensue. People dont want this ever again, so they shun nationalistic aggression at all cost.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: Eurofascism Sat Mar 11, 2017 7:25 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
The problem in Europe is not with authorities. These are simply symptoms of the craziness that has wrecked through the various attempts at permanent civilization that different peoples made.

The problem is rather that there is no aim, no objective.
This is an essential unfreedom, inability to speak. There is nothing to say.

What would be most beneficial for Europe right now is a Philosophy of the Future.



It speaks for itself that my plan for Europe as Ive outlined and detailed it in the past years, in videos and posts, is to my eyes the best plan. In fact it is the only way Ive ever seen that could lead forward.

Three pointers:

France leaves EU
Italy takes more prominance
Germany is conditioned to reality through Amsterdam

Center of the actually European Union is the following:
The Rome-Amsterdam Axis



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: Eurofascism Sat Mar 11, 2017 7:29 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I've heard of peoole being fined or imprisoned for saying politically incorrect things, or for denying the Holocaust or putting up a swastika for example. Let Pen had her "immunity" retroactively cancelled so she could be sued for having posted about ISIS violence. I've heard plenty of similar stories. But yeah you're right that the peoole just don't tolerate it, they repress themselves. But I believe what is needed is a near-absolute guarantee to free speech and free press at all costs, as a primary value and legal principle. People should know they are not at danger from saying something unpopular.




___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: Eurofascism Sat Mar 11, 2017 7:36 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
You are right, there are more conditions than in the US - and representatives do indeed not have total freedom of speech. In a sense the attacks on Trump are similar - the truth is always illegal, as legality is always a primordial crime.

Regardless, nothing can be imposed on the Europeans from the outside.
Europe must be reformed by a European, from the inside.

I'm willing to state that Europe will simply not be free without my plan, period.
Thus: there is no point discussing Euro-affairs in any other terms than this plan.

France and Germany can never function under the same standards. That is far more certain than that "A" = "A", it is actual value ontology.




___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: Eurofascism Sat Mar 11, 2017 7:46 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Thrasymachus wrote:
I've heard of peoole being fined or imprisoned for saying politically incorrect things, or for denying the Holocaust or putting up a swastika for example. Let Pen had her "immunity" retroactively cancelled so she could be sued for having posted about ISIS violence. I've heard plenty of similar stories. But yeah you're right that the peoole just don't tolerate it, they repress themselves. But I believe what is needed is a near-absolute guarantee to free speech and free press at all costs, as a primary value and legal principle. People should know they are not at danger from saying something unpopular.


In fact most muslims are denying the holocaust, but Ive not seen anyone imprisoned for that.
Freedom of speech that is used and turned to mass-lying by perverted political wills allows a lot of actual victims in Europe to be quite destroyed and robbed of honor.

Freedom is never a beginning. It is a result of strength. Freedom of speech belongs to sane people. Insane people aren't free in their mind/heart, thus freedom of speech doesnt apply to them.

In fact Europe could use a lot more coercion and actual top down rulership - but not from Brussels, but from Rome and Amsterdam.

Hail Caesar....
What saved the US is the Strong Man. Same for Russia. And it is precisely that type of human that's been feared in Europe as the hallmark of fascism.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: Eurofascism Sat Mar 11, 2017 8:07 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Freedom as a result of strength, yes. The imposition of a legal order is required, the uncomfortable truth is that the basic guarantee is one of primordial force. Once such a system is set up it becomes convenient to forget this fact.

Trump galvanized people, I see him as a sign of what America wanted-needed. Europe could have the same thing if not for Europe's stupid parliamentary coalition government systems. Those systems prevent true democracy qua representation as binary 1/0 decision-making, thus politics in Europe could in theory never act as a mind and mirror for societies in the general sense.

Freedom also creates its own luck, its own possibilities. The future is infinite even a few iterations forward in time, and legal freedom recognizes this basic fact and that fact's connection to vitality and valuing, to the possibility for a flourishing life.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: Eurofascism Sat Mar 11, 2017 8:19 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
First of all we need to stop pretending Europe is unity or entity of any sort like a nation. There is little or in common between Ireland and Spain or Holland and Poland. There is no European self-valuing. There should never be European law. The idea of a European constitution has been rejected by all peoples in referendums, and that was ignored. It doesn't really legally exist to my mind, nor should or will it.

All Europe can be is a texture of vastly differing and fundamentally independent nation states, a group of which invented the nation state, the national identity.

In 100 years, some European countries will be world powers again, whereas others will not even exist anymore.

There is no such thing as Europe in political terms.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: Eurofascism Sat Mar 11, 2017 8:38 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Yes that makes sense. I use the term Europe primarily for convenience, but I see the danger you mention, of assuming too much homogeneity amongst the various nations and cultures there.

I remember when the Euro currency was first introduced, it was after I had already been to Italy and spent their lira while there. I wasn't that old yet, but I remember being deeply offended at the idea that these countries and peoples were being forced to abandon their unique currencies for a common one. It still feels offensive to me.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: Eurofascism Sat Mar 11, 2017 10:10 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Yes, all our currencies were beautiful.
Google "gulden biljetten".

To assume France and Germany are under one value roof is to assume the US and Iran are identical.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: Eurofascism Sat Mar 11, 2017 10:16 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Wow you are right, very nice currency.

Point taken about France and Germany.

Here in the US I hear a lot of alarmism that the collapse of the Euro/EU would be an economic disaster for the US and to dollar, but I honestly don't believe that. But honestly the EU is falling apart regardless. I'm still somewhat shocked that European nations actually allowed the EU and the Euro in the first place.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: Eurofascism Sat Mar 11, 2017 5:01 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
It was a sudden decision really, it felt like. It just happened.

As of this week I am aiming for a relinquishing of France from the Euro, as France is stronger without the EU and the EU is more of a well oilable machine without France.

Return to national currencies will not necessarily be of interest to the central Euro axis, in the current political climate. We can't go back - there must be some continuation of the functionality - i.e. the riches that have been acquired can't be squandered. Too much is lost already - cutting our losses has started with Brexit and is going to happen, sensibly, with France, or otherwise I just don't see the possibility of improvement. But Germany, Austria, Italy, the Netherlands and Sweden could form a deeply functional axis.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: Eurofascism Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:47 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
This is precisely what I was talking about, no concept of freedom of speech whatsoever. If you can't protect unpopular speech then no speech is safe.

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/techn ... SKBN16L14G

"Germany already has some of the world's toughest hate speech laws covering defamation, slander, public incitement to commit crimes and threats of violence, backed up by prison sentences for Holocaust denial or inciting hatred against minorities. It now aims to update these rules for the social media age.

..."We do not want an internet police or thought control," the council's president, Josef Schuster, said. "But when hatred is stoked, and the legal norms in our democracy threaten to lose their relevance, then we need to intervene."


Wow.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: Eurofascism Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:48 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
"When hatred is stoked".... translation: when you say something that the ruling establishment doesn't want you to say.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: Eurofascism Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:50 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Political correctness is the worst fucking disease imaginable, a true disease of language. Politics-legality is acting as a parasite infesting language; it breeds larva, goo-humans.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: Eurofascism Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:44 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Yes, that is fascism.
It shouldn't surprise us really, the Germans never had any other tendencies.




___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: Eurofascism Tue Mar 14, 2017 12:08 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
ok check out this barbie of the third reich.
Not the guy in the thumbnial, that is Wilders, who knows what it means to have values. His opponent, who is hired for one reason alone: to get muslims to vote for his party. He has alientated most muslims as well as most socialists. Here again, he instantly begins to demonize Wilders in terms even more grotesque than a Calligula speech. This is the sort of man you need to imagine if you want to understand Brussels.



This is Wilders vs Asscher, who has made the soclal democrat party plummet but still manages to be arrogant.
If there is a contest for soul-lessness, he leads the charts in the Netherlands.

Look at him.
Mussolinis favorite pet.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: Eurofascism Tue Mar 14, 2017 3:07 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster



^ Haha, fuck yeah.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: Eurofascism Thu Mar 23, 2017 4:43 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Polish PM stands firm for truth, despite threats from EU:

"“I hear in Europe very often: do not connect the migration policy with terrorism, but it is impossible not to connect them,” the Polish premier told the TVN24 broadcasting network.

Poland’s governing Law and Justice Party (PiS) is currently locked in a struggle with the EU’s unelected executive, the European Commission, over its refusal to accept 6,200 migrants under a bloc-wide mandatory quota system, which was imposed despite the resistance of much of Central Europe.

“If some of them do not comply,” he warned, “the Commission has the power [and] the tools to convince these countries.”

The bloc wishes to fine member-states €250,000 for every migrant they refuse to receive – a sanction which would cost Poland billions, but be difficult to impose.

Swedish MEP Cecilia Wikström has proposed simply withholding funds from ‘troublesome’ countries – a punishment which would be easier to implement.

Poland has taken a similarly no-nonsense stance after other European terror events, with interior minister Mariusz Błaszczak declaring in no uncertain terms that “well-organised marches” and “painted flowers on the sidewalks” are no solution to Europe’s terror crisis after the Bastille Day truck attack in Nice, France.

“We must reject political correctness and call things by their true names,” he said. “Rather than shedding tears like [European Union High Representative Federica] Mogherini [and] organising marches that solve nothing, authorities should ensure the safety of citizens.”

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2017/03 ... on-policy/



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: Eurofascism Thu Mar 30, 2017 1:53 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Soros-funded NGOs and EU politicians sneaking in backdoor thought crime legislation in Ireland:

https://vid.me/xqVe

"If you want to know who rules over you, find the people you're not allowed to criticize."



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: Eurofascism Fri Mar 31, 2017 3:48 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Feminists and women finally waking up to what radical Islamic immigration represents for them:

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2017/03 ... entalists/



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: Eurofascism Fri Mar 31, 2017 4:24 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
It is very possible that at one point China will begin methodically eradicating Islam. Coldly, without any human consideration, as one approaches a pest. Islam controls much of the resources they feel entitled to.

I googled around a bit (whats the alternative engine you used, something with duck?) on this subject, to see if anyone has similar thinking as Ive been having since a muslim generals son explained to me a few primordial fears of Islam, and ran into this Christians blog article, which conveys the same sort of idea.

http://shoebat.com/2015/06/30/china-ban ... -complain/

China wants world-dominion, not a monopoly, but it knows itself a primacy of the Earth. Eventually Islam, as it grows larger, dumber, uglier and more of a nuisance, will just come to stand in its way. Which is an unfortunate position, to stand in the way of China's idea of progress.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: Eurofascism Fri Mar 31, 2017 4:32 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
https://duckduckgo.com



Message
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: Eurofascism Fri Apr 14, 2017 6:41 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
The danger of censorship is that by censoring something you stop your own ability to properly attack and discredit it, because you don't need to anymore-- you can simply throw the other guys in prison. Censorship actually strengthens the censored positions, because it means they aren't being challenged openly by facts and in the free market of ideas. Censorship also gives the impression that whatever is censored is dangerous, which makes it more interesting to people... "how is this dangerous, why? What is going on in this viewpoint here that is so threatening? Why isn't anyone actually arguing against it? Maybe they don't have good arguments against it, could that be the reason?" Etc. goes the thinking of people.

I am a strong defender of free speech. The test of free speech is whether or not unpopular and offensive speech is also protected, because if it isn't then there isn't actually any freedom of speech at all. Censorship is enforced by a particular government and positions and people in power, and the perspective and narrative of those people is going to determine what is free or unfree speech.

Look at all the holocaust denial stuff for example, these viewpoints and the people who hold them aren't going away just because Europe has made it a crime to say such things. European censorship is strengthening that which is censored, both directly and indirectly. But that is a secondary argument; the primary argument is of course that freedom of speech is a basic universal human right and if you don't like what someone else is saying then you can either argue against it with your own speech or you can choose not to associate with that person and just walk away. That is a properly human, rational position based on self-respect and the refusal to use force against others merely because you don't like what they are saying.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: Eurofascism Fri Apr 14, 2017 9:36 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Thrasymachus wrote:
The danger of censorship is that by censoring something you stop your own ability to properly attack and discredit it, because you don't need to anymore-- you can simply throw the other guys in prison. Censorship actually strengthens the censored positions, because it means they aren't being challenged openly by facts and in the free market of ideas. Censorship also gives the impression that whatever is censored is dangerous, which makes it more interesting to people... "how is this dangerous, why? What is going on in this viewpoint here that is so threatening? Why isn't anyone actually arguing against it? Maybe they don't have good arguments against it, could that be the reason?" Etc. goes the thinking of people.

Good points. It's how Trump won the elections, by being censored.

Quote :
I am a strong defender of free speech. The test of free speech is whether or not unpopular and offensive speech is also protected, because if it isn't then there isn't actually any freedom of speech at all. Censorship is enforced by a particular government and positions and people in power, and the perspective and narrative of those people is going to determine what is free or unfree speech.

Yes, absolutely, Im with you.
If a society cant withstand free speech, it is already dead.

Quote :
Look at all the holocaust denial stuff for example, these viewpoints and the people who hold them aren't going away just because Europe has made it a crime to say such things.

The opposite indeed.
Italy has always freely published Mein Kampf and has an untroubled fascist segment, and probably because of this no one is actually denying the Holocaust. At worst some argue that it was a good thing, I suppose. Most will disagree, so case closed.

Quote :
European censorship is strengthening that which is censored, both directly and indirectly. But that is a secondary argument; the primary argument is of course that freedom of speech is a basic universal human right and if you don't like what someone else is saying then you can either argue against it with your own speech or you can choose not to associate with that person and just walk away. That is a properly human, rational position based on self-respect and the refusal to use force against others merely because you don't like what they are saying.

Its not even a basic human right (as rights, by nature, cant be all that basic, since all possible rights contradict certain other possible rights, thus legality is always a mess) but a basic human property. Without free speech, humanity is not.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: Eurofascism Fri Apr 14, 2017 9:41 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fantastic point... not a right but a property. Yes. I said "right" in so far as the freedom to speak without repercussions of legal force and censorship is paramount to the kinds of beings that we are; I see rights as simply expressions of the facts of the kinds of beings that we are. Governments do not give rights, governments either acknowledge the rights we naturally have (own, as you point out) or fail to do so.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: Eurofascism Fri Apr 14, 2017 9:43 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
The notion of God-given rights comes closest to this, saying God-given rights is just another way of saying that these 'rights' are integral to what we are. No one "gives" them. We had to invent and tie this to a divinity figure in order to articulate it properly, at least 250 years ago.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: Eurofascism Fri Apr 14, 2017 9:56 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Right, so a basic human right should be interpreted as any state or activity that one can not impede without reducing the being from a nominal human to something less.

This means we can define the human being in terms of its natural activities, rather than merely as a list of biological attributes. So we can define a human being in terms of a human life. Thats a big leap forward.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: Eurofascism Fri Apr 14, 2017 10:00 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Yes, this is truly a breakthrough.
Right is a word, concept, just like Being is.
As humans, we have the right (duty qua full humanity!) to interpret our concept of Human Right in the most responsible way.
That means to derive it directly from what in our most profound explication of our valuing, a Human Being is. Whatever this is, it must be expressed by us in Rights.

In as far as General Rights go, that is integral to whatever we conclude about General Being(s).



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: Eurofascism Fri Apr 14, 2017 10:02 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fixed Cross wrote:
Right, so a basic human right should be interpreted as any state or activity that one can not impede without reducing the being from a nominal human to something less.

This means we can define the human being in terms of its natural activities, rather than merely as a list of biological attributes. So we can define a human being in terms of a human life. Thats a big leap forward.

Yes absolutely... I used to be somewhat intuitively against the idea of ownership, I remember writing about this in DFIOS, and I ended up going back and re-writing that section because my thoughts changed on it. I regret that the version Pezer has still has the old writing in it, because I recall he was also a proponent of this notion of ownership being significant.

Ownership is simply the basic category of the individual; we 'own' ourselves, our speech, our thoughts, our emotions, out behaviors, our tendencies, our goals... and as you point out, this isn't simply a static biological sort of property but is rather that which we are as natural activities, as human life so-called. We are self-valuing, which logically necessitates a whole host of related properties and attributes and requirements. All of these "owned" things come from values.

Ownership is key. Ownership is simply an extension of self-responsibility, the ability to dispose of something according to how we want to do that. Of course ownership/property are abstract concepts, it isn't as if we really literally "own" in a metaphysical sense, but rather the entire notion of ownership is like the logical basis-structure for how we as self-valuing act and enact in the world; ownership is the abstract dimension of being, but tectonically-speaking it is quite physical and not at all "merely abstract". Therefore the philosophical or legal recognition of the idea of ownership and property is just a way of setting that sort of being which we are properly on track with the sort of living, requirements and expectations that are essential for us.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: Eurofascism Fri Apr 14, 2017 10:05 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Quote :
Ownership is key. Ownership is simply an extension of self-responsibility,

Wow, this is the core essence. This brings us finally onto the bridge from valuing to value - what makes valuing valuable, a first tectonics.
I'd even leave out the 'self-' - it is an extension of responsibility.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: Eurofascism Fri Apr 14, 2017 10:10 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
A selfvaluing is a value to other selfvaluigs on account of its responsibility for its values.
Thereby it both stabilizes itself, and makes itself predictable and potentially accountable, and it creates the possibility for other valuings to recognize those values it upholds as its responsibility, and value them also. Cosmos is the result. Or: economy.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: Eurofascism Sat May 20, 2017 2:52 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster

"The Identitarian Movement, which has around 500 members, promotes “traditional national values” and is also strongly opposed to illegal immigration into Europe. The movement said their Friday protest targeted Justice Minister Heiko Maas and his proposed law, which received a first reading on Friday, designed to force social media platforms to quickly remove unlawful, offensive comments.“Justice Minister Heiko Maas is dissatisfied with the already existing censorship on Facebook and Twitter, and would now force these companies to take even more rigorous action against what the German government does not want to see on social networks,” the group said in a statement.The Identitarians last made headlines in August when they climbed the landmark Brandenburg Gate, hanging a banner on the monument reading “Secure borders, secure future.”The anti-immigrant movement is monitored by domestic intelligence agency BfV for becoming increasingly radical and possibly breaching Germany’s laws on xenophobia."


https://www.rt.com/news/389049-berlin-r ... g-protest/



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: Eurofascism Sun May 21, 2017 5:45 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
http://www.breitbart.com/london/2017/05 ... -migrants/



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: Eurofascism Sun May 21, 2017 10:10 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster




___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida


PostSubject: Re: Eurofascism Sun May 21, 2017 12:00 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Nazis with masks. Anything negative said against the governments' policies is in violation of the law. So much for free speech.

But then, the Germanys were never all that good at free speech anyway.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: Eurofascism Sun May 21, 2017 12:57 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Sisyphus wrote:
Nazis with masks. Anything negative said against the governments' policies is in violation of the law. So much for free speech.

But then, the Germanys were never all that good at free speech anyway.

Which is the reason Nietzsche never speaks of his contemporaries holding the powers of his own country, which were rather significant to the coming century of war.

Bismarck was Nietzsche's contemporary, and it is evident how much respect N has for him if you read between the lines -
He was himself from Prussia as well.

Not much is spoken of this tie, weirdly. It seems far more important than his relation to Wagner.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida


PostSubject: Re: Eurofascism Sun May 21, 2017 10:39 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fixed Cross wrote:

Which is the reason Nietzsche never speaks of his contemporaries holding the powers of his own country, which were rather significant to the coming century of war.

Bismarck was Nietzsche's contemporary, and it is evident how much respect N has for him if you read between the lines -
He was himself from Prussia as well.

Not much is spoken of this tie, weirdly. It seems far more important than his relation to Wagner.

Yes, I did notice the respect N had for Bismarck. (I am Prussian on my mother's side (Yunker).)

And I agree, his link with Wagner was only via the arts. When Wagner became openly anti-Semitic the link was broken.

I can't recall N ever being negative toward Bismarck or the trend of the government.

Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: Eurofascism Mon May 22, 2017 2:43 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
You are half Prussian? Delightful!

If you havent, watch this movie. Ive rarely watched, no strike that, Ive never watched an American film that was this straightforwardly informative.





___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida


PostSubject: Re: Eurofascism Mon May 22, 2017 4:08 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I haven't seen that yet. I'll put it on my list of things to do. Thanks.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: Eurofascism Wed Jun 14, 2017 4:10 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I think Eurodeath is a clear indication of the consequences of Marxism. These socialist countries have become disconnected from reality, that is what socialism means. Disconnect from reality and call that a virtue. Really that is all leftism means, at least in current form. Classical liberalism actually values reality, but Marx fucked that up for everyone.

Swedes and Germans and French and Dutch and English simply cannot reason or even feel something like the danger they are facing. They no longer live in the real world. They apologize when their own people get raped and killed, and talk about tolerating rape and murder, where they actually acknowledge it's even happening which isn't often. Lemmings with VR headsets is the current ideal.

I would guess the only method for bringing people back to reality would be war. It's sad this has to be the case but I can't imagine anything less will work.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: Eurofascism Wed Jun 14, 2017 4:48 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
EU imposing sanctions against three European nations over their refusal to allow their countries to be destroyed by mass immigration,

https://euobserver.com/migration/138216


To the Czech Republic, Hungary and Poland I say: nice work. Congrats on having some balls, and keep it up. The USA is with you on this one.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida


PostSubject: Re: Eurofascism Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:42 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Yesterday I welcomed a new member to the Daoist forum. He live in Greece. Said there weren't many Greeks left. Most seem to be moving out of the Muslim nation.

Seems that the Persians have finally defeated the Greeks.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: Eurofascism Thu Jun 15, 2017 1:38 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Europe defeated itself. Marx is the new god now, a pure deathgod.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: Eurofascism Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:24 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
This is indeed half about the ME empires feeling entitled to owning Europe, theyve always said it, in recent years they screamed for Rome.

That Greek was likely exaggerating, Greeks are rather proud and, as we know, they've endured many, many more occupations than any other European nation. From the Romans to the Nazis, they're used to being oppressed. They dealt with the nazis more bravely than most, and I expect them to fight through this the coming centuries.

Europe has however indeed defeated itself. Another way of saying what happened is that Germany managed to win the war in the end. It is now like it would have been in the Third Reich: anyone who says anything against Germany policies and German ideas will suffer the wrath of the entire horde, that the population has been turned into.

But Germany can only defeat itself too - it has no temperament for enjoyment. Once it has sufficiently weakened the rest, the war will start.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: Eurofascism Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:50 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster




___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: Eurofascism Thu Jun 15, 2017 4:27 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Wilhelm_II_of_Germany
Image
For behold, all acts of love and pleasure are my rituals
User avatar
Jakob
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 6100
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:23 pm
Location: look at my suit

Re: The Philosophers

Postby Jakob » Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:41 am

Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Words Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:24 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
We have the best words. All of our words are the best, and we always use only the best words.

Philosophy is knowing how to only use the best words.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: Words Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:25 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
This requires knowing how to not use the words that are not the best words; and also requires not knowing how to use the words that are not the best words.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida


PostSubject: Re: Words Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:26 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
You do know that Nietzsche made up a lot of his own words because the Germany language didn't have a word for the concept he was trying to express?

I try to use words that have few connotations. Words with many connotations oftentimes cause confusion or misunderstandings.

And yes, I do sometimes make up my own words and then explain further when questioned.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: Words Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:31 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I like English because it has so many multiple overlapping meanings for so many words, creating a lot of depth and multiple possible connotations. I also like how many idioms English has. I would say that English is the superior language when it comes to philosophy, at least based on the little I know of Spanish and French and German (at least we don't need to make new words that are 20 letters long when we want to expressanewconceptinEnglish).



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: Words Wed Sep 20, 2017 4:19 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Lol
but which are those long German words you dont like? I am not aware of that issue, haha. German is pretty damned economic.

Its true N doesnt translate into English too well. Some fundamental terms literally have no English translation, like Geist, which is central. But these arent words above the normal letter count.

Uebermensch is also untranslatable. It certainly doesnt mean Superman.







Message
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: For T - Jordan Peterson and the Ethical and Supernal perspectives Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:50 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
If you would do me this favour, please watch 30 seconds up to a few minutes from this video from 9:30.

This ties into our wondering about Jordans future, as he is picking up pace and merging with the phenomenon he has been representing; the thing that lies beyond ethics; selfvaluing qua self-valuing; rather than "I am what I am", "I am that I am". He is heading to "cross the abyss" and seems to be doing so in a timely fashion, at the ideal moment in a mans life to take that last leap known to the ancients; what powers lie beyond are always unfathomable in advance.



link to the proper moment:
https://youtu.be/XzC1rJjZ3_c?t=9m30s


Clearly, in this model the work of yourself, Parodites and myself would be considered to take place in the Supernal triad; beyond the reasonings that take place within the existence of ethics. Any great scientist operated here, but only philosophy attempts to completely grasp this Supernal triad and subsume the glyph in daemonic truth, where all is seen and no part is lost to any other part; the supreme activity of cosmos; such power as a lesser musician would only recognize as grinding but which is the subtlest of all things.

The Machinery of the Universe, the Foundation, the way near-being conspires with near-being to allow for their mutually coveted being to come about; this restless pond is always at the party, lurking within the banality to make it real at the right moment.

There is no way for banality to stop the encroaching of subtlety. There is no way for the banal to properly apply subtlety, without the consequences slipping through his fingers. This is "the machinery", as I divine it; the supreme subtlety of the fluxing manifestation hierarchy, "the subtle guiders of relentless fire" as Zoroaster saw it in a vision - VO resolves all these ancient visions of the same. Prana, the Holy Spirit, magic, all this is seething self valuing plasma that is awaiting to be chosen into the cellularly manifest; it relates to the daemonic Excess, or is perhaps the very same thing. That from which tings are drawn. There is no need for an ether, there being is its own medium. Being is the mediating, which is seen as valuing, consequences of that, amounting in self-vauings coming about, which form beings temporal... temples to itself.




Message
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Christ will always be kicking the living shit out of Kant Wed Mar 08, 2017 1:03 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
We all know Kant's "Golden Rule". It's not even worth mentioning.

Christ on the other hands says: "I accept your flaws but not my own."


My own rule, which i have lived by as far as Ive been able to, is to treat others better than I expect them to treat me.
(scorn & laughter)
But that is what standards are for: to be just out of reach. A standard makes man into an arrow.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: Christ will always be kicking the living shit out of Kant Wed Mar 08, 2017 1:08 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fuck yes.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: Christ will always be kicking the living shit out of Kant Wed Mar 08, 2017 1:15 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
And for Sisyphus, this isnt a theological post. God is irrelevant here, or subservient to the ethics on display.

All religious prophets are simply people who succeed in attaching their real world standards to the fantasmagoric label "God".
By this competition, where that name is the gold-medal of ethical effort, a label you get to stick on your standards if you've basically killed or subjected everyone you didn't convert, our cultural ethics were formed.

So what happened in Judea, Greece and Rome when we mark the beginning of our calendar, is the usurping of the name God in the spirit of a couple of beliefs about right and wrong. And as it happened this vision, unlike that of for example the Babyloneans, was to do with man himself attaining to godhood.
This put a grandiose load of responsibility on the mind of men, that they were supposed to be somewhat like this Christ, because he was after all a man, even if son of god and thus god. It caused a lot of cognitive dissonance, to begin with. That is why these martyrs went into the Collosseum with glad hearts - their unfathomable pain in the brain, of being Christ-torchbearers but by long shot no Christs - would be allowed to kill them, and death would wash them clean of pain and imperfection, the latter being their greatest source of pain.

What happened to them after death? They rotted away and became examples to new ones of the same spirits, and eventually, this made such an impression on the thinned out Romans, no longer Etruscans in blood but Europeans, that they began to get the ethical virus, lost their resistance and had to aim for an entirely new notion of health --
which is really the most perverted thing that ever was. Medieval healthcare... ok.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: Christ will always be kicking the living shit out of Kant Wed Mar 08, 2017 1:25 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
But healthcare, care, wasn't the issue - health was supposed to be the passion for the Christ.
And we can be assured that health was required and attained in the building of this.

Image


This is Christianity qua France.
Unprovoked, unexpected glory.
Ive actually spent some time on the courtyard all the way on top in the monastery, the now glass-walled patio garden that would in the real days be wrecked with storms. To be a monk there, that was no lowly fate.

Somber, stoic trees have their roots in the walls and walkways of the fortress.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida


PostSubject: Re: Christ will always be kicking the living shit out of Kant Thu Mar 09, 2017 1:48 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fixed Cross wrote:
And for Sisyphus, this isnt a theological post. God is irrelevant here, or subservient to the ethics on display.

We already know that I will have nothing to do with Kant.

As to the word "God"; I really don't have a problem with it when it is used to label an unidentifiable Prime Mover of the universe.

It is when the unidentifiable is then personified and given magical powers but yet that unidentifiable Supreme Power created a universe with innumerable flaws. I mean, really, if there were such a thing as n Omni-potent Power wouldn't he want to create something he could be proud of?

To have faith in a personified Prime Mover requires one to hold to delusions. The only purpose of personifying the Prime Mover of the universe is for the creator of the lie to have control of the people. That is all.

The initial intent of religions is to be able to explain events that are otherwise unexplainable because of man's ignorance of the processes of nature. This is not a problem, IMO. It is when the religion becomes a tool for controlling the mind of the people that religion becomes hypocritical.

All cultures like having religions and their "God" so that they can be "God's chosen people". The Jews said it straight out, most other religions believe the same thing but keep the thought behind a bunch of smoke and mirrors.

Institutionalized religions are designed for dumbing down the believers. And the priests are the only avenue through which a believer can communicate with their God. Power to the maximum.

All of the original great societies were destroyed by their own religion. Rome was ruined by religion. I could do research and likely find about a hundred more societies that were ruined by their own religion.


Now, I have nothing against religious spirituality. And this will remain pure as long as one does not attempt to personify something that is beyond the understanding of the human mind. We will never know of anything that happened before the beginning. It is a waste of mental power to attempt such an endeavor.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: Christ will always be kicking the living shit out of Kant Wed Sep 20, 2017 6:06 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fixed Cross wrote:
But healthcare, care, wasn't the issue - health was supposed to be the passion for the Christ.
And we can be assured that health was required and attained in the building of this.



This is Christianity qua France.
Unprovoked, unexpected glory.
Ive actually spent some time on the courtyard all the way on top in the monastery, the now glass-walled patio garden that would in the real days be wrecked with storms. To be a monk there, that was no lowly fate.

Somber, stoic trees have their roots in the walls and walkways of the fortress.

People like Kant only "believe in God" because they don't actually believe anything of the sort. They are incapable of value proper but have been guilted into whatever world of symbols happen to exist around them at the time.




___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: Christ will always be kicking the living shit out of Kant Wed Sep 20, 2017 6:14 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Yes. Kant is a symptom of "the problematic side of German" in this sense, like Wittgenstein was in a more graceful and honest (and overtly silly) way. They actually assume that things exist in as much as there is a word for them.

True Christians in the sense of "in the beginning was the word".
Heidegger is a direct attack on this.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Drops_Of_Jupiter
bowstring
bowstring


Posts : 32
Join date : 2017-02-03
Age : 57
Location : Columbus, Ohio USA


PostSubject: Re: Christ will always be kicking the living shit out of Kant Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:00 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fixed Cross wrote:
We all know Kant's "Golden Rule". It's not even worth mentioning.

Christ on the other hands says: "I accept your flaws but not my own."


My own rule, which i have lived by as far as Ive been able to, is to treat others better than I expect them to treat me.
(scorn & laughter)
But that is what standards are for: to be just out of reach. A standard makes man into an arrow.

I don't know... I've been taught the lifeguard's method. Save my self first. Then work to save others, when possible.

The other issue here is "expectations." When we have lower expectations, it is easier to be delighted. However, when we have higher expectations, the quality and level of delightment is much more satisfying when achieved. - Personally, I rather have a few high quality friends than many fair weather friends of low quality.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail https://www.facebook.com/debbie.styers
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: Christ will always be kicking the living shit out of Kant Thu Sep 21, 2017 4:06 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
A lifeguard obviously treats the drowning person better than he expects the drowning person to be able to treat him.

My standard applies to all nobility.

I deleted your post on Maslov, since you claimed there was a logic to it but then you didn't show that logic. Im getting a bit tougher on stupidity and pretentiousness.

I nearly removed your membership on account of this pretentiousness, but then I saw you are Sisyphus' friend. I like Sisyphus.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida


PostSubject: Re: Christ will always be kicking the living shit out of Kant Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:20 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I have nothing to say right now. Just letting Y'all know that I am reading this thread.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: Christ will always be kicking the living shit out of Kant Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:20 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Quote :
I deleted your post on Maslov, since you claimed there was a logic to it but then you didn't show that logic. Im getting a bit tougher on stupidity and pretentiousness.

I nearly removed your membership on account of this pretentiousness, but then I saw you are Sisyphus' friend.


^ Yeah, that.
Image
For behold, all acts of love and pleasure are my rituals
User avatar
Jakob
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 6100
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:23 pm
Location: look at my suit

Re: The Philosophers

Postby Jakob » Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:43 am

Pezer
builder
builder
avatar

Posts : 2190
Join date : 2011-11-15
Location : deep caverns in caves


PostSubject: If chaos, then what? Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:22 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
We got to a point on the philosopher's thread on ilp where Sawelios said (paraphrasing) 'nothing, an infinity of turtles upon turtles, whatever.'

Thus justifying magic, that inscrutable point of inception, also known as superstition.

But the what does matter. Whether it's an infinity of turtles upon turtles or nothing or what. If you are not prone to superstition at least, it matters very much.


The what is chaos. The greeks knew it, but let's not attempt to take up the greek conversation. It is chaos, that is obvious.

So the ethics is, um, shit I forgot.

Make the most of it I guess.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Pezer
builder
builder
avatar

Posts : 2190
Join date : 2011-11-15
Location : deep caverns in caves


PostSubject: Re: If chaos, then what? Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:35 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Right, ok. If chaos is inscrutable in its totality, yet it answers the question where does everything come from...

Getting closer. Brb.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: If chaos, then what? Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:00 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
It occurs to me that vo can be called chaos ontology.
Or chaos architecture.

Simply because its premises preclude perfect top down pattern weaving.

don't mean to interrupt.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Pezer
builder
builder
avatar

Posts : 2190
Join date : 2011-11-15
Location : deep caverns in caves


PostSubject: Re: If chaos, then what? Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:06 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
You sus interrupt.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Pezer
builder
builder
avatar

Posts : 2190
Join date : 2011-11-15
Location : deep caverns in caves


PostSubject: Re: If chaos, then what? Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:07 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
*did.

Hold on.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Pezer
builder
builder
avatar

Posts : 2190
Join date : 2011-11-15
Location : deep caverns in caves


PostSubject: Re: If chaos, then what? Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:18 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Right. The ethics is.

Chaos precludes the possibility of a unifying principle, a single guide. Since one would preclude the whole rest of chaos. And it is inscrutably inmense.

Vo deals with this lack of unity (on the surface, since it does hold the mechanism of vo itself to be The Answer, the unifying principle from which is the totality of everything). But it doesn't show why. I just have.

The ethics then is to. Goddamnit man. You fucked my whole shit up.

Anyway, the idea of an architecture or ontology of chaos is patently absurd.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: If chaos, then what? Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:19 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Yes yes, difference precedes every order. But.

Actually you just described why VO gives architecture of chaos.

I agree with the general principle, but in general, existence precludes the possibility of a unifying underlying principle. At least, if we assume real existence. If there is a unifying principle, all is a simulation and nothing actually exists, so it can't explain itself so it can't explain its origins so we get the old god back.

Otherwise, unification can only be done through long effort of will, with is born of what you call chaos and I difference, which is born from self-valuing principle.

VO shows why there is lack of unity, because it precludes a priori unity and yet offers the fundamental theorem about being. So being can't be fundamentally a unity.

To always have to disagree to agree...


--
You posit "if chaos" and then draw a valid "then" - but only though VO have I been able to establish that chaos is prior to order.



Tell me, how do you explain order from chaos?
How, if Chaos is the premise, does order follow?




___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Pezer
builder
builder
avatar

Posts : 2190
Join date : 2011-11-15
Location : deep caverns in caves


PostSubject: Re: If chaos, then what? Wed Jun 06, 2018 2:06 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Unification of what?

I don't explain order from chaos. This would imply chaos is distinct and separate from something.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: If chaos, then what? Wed Jun 06, 2018 2:09 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Asking if order can come from chaos is like asking if god can make a rock so heavy he can’t lift it. Just metaphysical games. Semantics only.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: If chaos, then what? Wed Jun 06, 2018 2:42 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
"Unification of what?"

Of existence.
What the will to power attempts.
To bring all under one signifier.
What VO basically manages.

"I don't explain order from chaos. This would imply chaos is distinct and separate from something."

No, rather that you don't explain order from chaos implies that chaos is separate from everything.

Chaos means void.
If Void is the basic premise, then how does non-void arise from it?

This is why I don't take Buddhism as an intellectual, but only as a physiological premise.

There is only the relative stillness of the nerves.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: If chaos, then what? Wed Jun 06, 2018 2:45 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
"Asking if order can come from chaos is like asking if god can make a rock so heavy he can’t lift it. Just metaphysical games. Semantics only."

Haha, but no. It is rather the question what is meant with the pretty word "chaos".
If not the actual meaning, that is - which is "void".

Noting can come from void, obviously. So if chaos is the basic premise, then the universe contradicts that premise. Thats cool though. But I prefer such artifices of language in French.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: If chaos, then what? Wed Jun 06, 2018 2:49 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Its very tedious to have to repeat all the fucking time.

Self-valuing precedes any relative chaos. Chaos, in the empirical light of existence, is either fabricated, or a term for a local, specific absence of recognizable patterns.

Absolute chaos is in direct contradiction with experience. Absolute self-valuing is the point toward which being is an asymptote.

Games so much annoy me.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: If chaos, then what? Wed Jun 06, 2018 2:51 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Me too. For me, chaos is always a relative measure of some either disorder or unpredictability within an existing system. Order and chaos spin each other into existence and work together, it’s just the logic of things. Value logic precedes all this of course.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: If chaos, then what? Wed Jun 06, 2018 2:53 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Another way chaos can be perceived is from a lack of control, a weak power.
A weak centre of power means a very limited ability to see order around itself.
Everything is like, overwhelming and shit. Oooh, its so chaotic!
Yeah, imagine Napoleon exclaiming that.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: If chaos, then what? Wed Jun 06, 2018 2:54 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Olol, yeah



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: If chaos, then what? Wed Jun 06, 2018 2:56 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
In his case, the weather finally was cause to chaos. It had rained before the battle of Waterloo, making certain tactics or strategy impossible, ridding Napoleon of his control, his self-valuing of the battle. But this simply meant that chaos disappeared from the other side.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: If chaos, then what? Wed Jun 06, 2018 2:57 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Supposedly his extension of capital credit was also removed at a key moment.

But yes, anyone who sees complexity as “chaos” simply isn’t trying hard enough. So I guess that would make such a person merely... chaotic.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: If chaos, then what? Wed Jun 06, 2018 3:02 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Thrasymachus wrote:
Me too. For me, chaos is always a relative measure of some either disorder or unpredictability within an existing system. Order and chaos spin each other into existence and work together, it’s just the logic of things. Value logic precedes all this of course.

Right, but does this not mean that chaos is a crucial element to order?

I think this is the case.

In the sense that sv-logic is essentially an order, since logic is really an order -
and since it is not top down bot bottom up, in order for this order to exist it must face relative chaos outside of itself, even so as to be able to maintain the order, which after all involves incorporating uncertainties.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: If chaos, then what? Wed Jun 06, 2018 3:06 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Thrasymachus wrote:
Supposedly his extension of capital credit was also removed at a key moment.

Seems to fit the picture. What is certain is that when the battle was lost the first Rothschild quickly sped to London and announced that Nap had won, crashing the London exchange, from what I understand decimating it - so that Rothschild could buy the whole thing. I think this is the cause to the ongoing resentment against Jewish bankers in England.

Anyway maybe it was Rothschild who financed Nap too then? Seems a nifty plot.

Quote :
But yes, anyone who sees complexity as “chaos” simply isn’t trying hard enough. So I guess that would make such a person merely... chaotic.

Certainly the term chaos is just not cutting it, unless P is willing to narrow it down - which would have to be done in terms of the basic logic we already have.

Maybe chaos can mean the absence of pure absence, and nothing more - leaving the question of presence aside.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: If chaos, then what? Wed Jun 06, 2018 3:16 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Yes, or he could use his own logic, that would be cool too.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: If chaos, then what? Wed Jun 06, 2018 3:17 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
What P tends to present as chaotic are invariably windows through which more of the majestic order is revealed.
In this sense his "chaos" is akin to the shamanic, magical valuing type of vision -
that which is unhindered by what it sees - that which sees without interpreting.

Relatively, of course - simply letting reality impact layers far beneath the most eager contexts.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: If chaos, then what? Wed Jun 06, 2018 3:26 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
That’s why I’ve always thought of Pezer as a tectonic-tactician. I would very much like to see his further elaborations of the sort of logic he sees at work, in chaos or anything else.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: If chaos, then what? Wed Jun 06, 2018 3:29 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Thrasymachus wrote:
Yes, or he could use his own logic, that would be cool too.

He will always use his own structural integrity and build edifices of logic, consequential things. But VO is unassailable, and I don't think P disagrees -


I just realize that if WtP is the Hammer, VO is the Anvil.

The ground that gives the hammer its hammer-ness from which swords emerge.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: If chaos, then what? Wed Jun 06, 2018 3:52 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Challenging WtP-VO -- will to value (double entendre) -- is like words competing with the sentence in which they appear.

Which is what poetry and philosophy both are, that is true.
Not every good line is a sentence.

"go on break it
it aint sacred
its not holy ---"

Thrasymachus wrote:
That’s why I’ve always thought of Pezer as a tectonic-tactician.

Fuck thats an excellent term.
He is certainly good at being that.

Quote :
I would very much like to see his further elaborations of the sort of logic he sees at work, in chaos or anything else.

I don't mean to impede any of it.
But even less I mean to impede my philosophic self-valuing, which is a devouring monster of energy.
If I am anything it is a problem with which the world will have to come to get to grips. An by the world I might mean what Pezer intends with it - he sets the right goals. So I toss mountains in his way to make a path.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: If chaos, then what? Wed Jun 06, 2018 3:55 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
VO is indeed an anvil, as breaking the anvil leads to impotence of the hammer. Because the hammer is power, this can't be done.

Lets say VO is the hammer and anvil, where the hammer had already been developed by Nietzsche. I needed to make something that the hammer occult destroy to explicate precisely the friction of the WtP with itself.





Message
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: If chaos, then what? Wed Jun 06, 2018 4:12 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
tectonic tactician/fixed cross/capable of demonstration
for example

Pezer would be the Master of Ceremony of this group.
Frankly we're all very good rappers, the world should know our style.

Nthing is trivial. Thus "Everything, "All" is definitely trivial. What that leaves is a very peculiar moment of the choosing of my own tastes when a magician told a story.

(etc -)



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides


Last edited by Fixed Cross on Wed Jun 06, 2018 4:19 am; edited 2 times in total
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: If chaos, then what? Wed Jun 06, 2018 4:14 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
That the thing rappers are never alone.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: If chaos, then what? Wed Jun 06, 2018 4:16 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I don't believe in chaos
I am chaos
they tell me

why don't I believe in myself they ask

chaos is in the formation of a flower, it is all that collapses in favour of the Great.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: If chaos, then what? Wed Jun 06, 2018 4:26 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Rap gives an opportunity to bring back the old materials and start from the bottom, the rock where it still meet the grass. It has a kind of pedestrian nature as morality always does before the billions of years - and it uses this, like playing craps against the walls of eternity as I called it - and in this game finds the stone, the eternal dance of an environment of chance, the certainties. Win and lose - these are monumental concepts, the pillars of mercy and severity as they occur in time and define us step by step.

Determining what we wish to win is prior to all this but most of it is implicit in our nativity.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Pezer
builder
builder
avatar

Posts : 2190
Join date : 2011-11-15
Location : deep caverns in caves


PostSubject: Re: If chaos, then what? Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:23 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster

Well ok, you want a more concrete definition of chaos. You did what I said not to do, which is continue the greek conversation. Chaos meant void then. Kaoc, the sound of a drop onto a pool. Also why Thales held water to be the what everything is essencially. But the -oc was then deemed too hardcore, so it was softened into oç. It was the sound that determined existence, chaogenetic. Try it! Dyonisoç, Dyonisoç. Etc.

But this obviously is not the chaos Nietzsche, for example, refered to. It is simply its genetic precursor.

Chaos is, as traceable from that very genetic line, that which everything is.

Let's take it from the search for the grandest, most all determining, all encompassing, all being real thing. Famously pursued by catholics and philosophers. Is it God? But this would imply a unity of some sort. Everything can't be God and God remain a distinct thing. As you say, all knowledge must be rooted in experiencie. Can any such unity be drawn from experience?

Nietzsche and Kierkegaard both stumbled on this. The lack of unity.

The only term, and one which understanding requires only the barest intellectual honesty, that encompasses everything, absolutely everything, from order to what mathematicians call chaos or entropy, to punk horses, to what can't quite be put into words yet or ever or really anything at all and everything, including void, truths that contradict void, truths, absoluteness, the impossibility of absoluteness, sadness, blorgorg, infinity, an infinite etc. is chaos.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Pezer
builder
builder
avatar

Posts : 2190
Join date : 2011-11-15
Location : deep caverns in caves


PostSubject: Re: If chaos, then what? Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:26 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
And even that elemental Greek pool, kaoc, is only void un like a genetic almost mystical place, a transition between chaos and Gods and Stuff, not because chaos requires one, or there necessarily is one. Just because chaos includes it un its inscrutable infinity.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: If chaos, then what? Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:49 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Thats profoundly clarifying.
Yes then, chaos includes order, chaos is simply that which is but isn't subjected yet.
Lol, that explains my behaviour as FC.


Still this stresses self valuing logic principle as the architect of, for with and by or at least through chaos.
But maybe thats like saying the engine is the architect of the distance. One bridge too far.

VO needs wheels. Chaos can be its wheels.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: If chaos, then what? Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:55 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Because VO is an order that destroys all previous orders of its... order.
Thus, it must have a kind of ally, something it doesn't destroy, to navigate itself, to self-valuing.

The self valuing logic is the dancing star born amid the chaos -
chaos is that which has no laws, so that lawlessnesses can exist and set their own laws, so that things can exist.

Chaos is the inverse of the grass growing through the rock, or tarmac. I don't know what that means, I just missed the metaphor.

But now see why chaos is a birth ground, even though not to itself, as it is simply the intermediary of being and the next instance of being; it is the collective unconscious will, the monster of energy that must seclude itself from itself in many compartmentalized chambers called entities; self-valuing is the escape of chaos from itself, which it fortunately never even intended to be, as that would be its death.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: If chaos, then what? Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:56 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I believe that ‘void’ is only meaningful in relation to something which is absent. Thus there must be “some thing” already, thus absolute void-as-such, in a universal or a priori sense, makes no sense. I see this also applying to chaos.

I will give a brief overview of my argument for the meaninglessness if non-existence, or rather for the fact that something has always existed and it makes no sense to speak of a time at which there was nothing anywhere;

1) Principle of Sufficient Reason (it makes no sense, not even potentially or in imagination, to speak about something existing or occurring for literally no reason; you can always ask of everything “why did it occur? Why is it what it is, rather than something else?)

2) something exists right now (this cannot logically or sanely be denied)

3) ergo, given 1 and 2, something has always existed

4) ergo, given 3, it makes no sense to posit or speak about a time or original state of “void” wherein nothing existed anywhere, ever, at all.


—-

Therefore, in my view anyway, something has always existed and this is an absolutely fundamental and undeniable Fact. So given this fact, to speak of void is to speak of a specific absence of something which already exists or which already existed. Void just means “hey this existing thing isn’t happening to be here anymore”.

As for chaos, I’ve stated how I define this. I don’t believe in an absolute chaos because that would imply an absolute lack (void) of order, which would make no sense. For any thing to exist or to be the case, it must have some sort of ordered-ness to it. Order simply means relations between, structure, being-ness; without such things, no thing could exist, since this is basically just describing what it means to exist anyway.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: If chaos, then what? Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:59 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Pezer wrote:
And even that elemental Greek pool, kaoc, is only void un like a genetic almost mystical place, a transition between chaos and Gods and Stuff, not because chaos requires one, or there necessarily is one. Just because chaos includes it un its inscrutable infinity.
I like this.

Yeah this oq- it sounds Arabic.

Khalaq

Certain relatively chaotic beings.

tarmoq
roq.

Oq = death
to update suihelios





___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: If chaos, then what? Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:13 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Thrasymachus wrote:
I believe that ‘void’ is only meaningful in relation to something which is absent. Thus there must be “some thing” already, thus absolute void-as-such, in a universal or a priori sense, makes no sense. I see this also applying to chaos.

Absolutely. So the Zen Void, it makes sense then that it is attained, to simply something contemplated; a true void of awareness (which first took me several hours of energizing, yoga and then meditation to attain, which I did every day for six months) is attained through recognizing all things and aligning them all on precisely the same wavelength. Then, the brain relaxes to about a tenth of its normal effort in a sort of sigh, and can be silent in absolute bliss for hours. Just nothing except use empty roaming of objectless release of endorphins and what not.

This it is simply neurological emptiness of tensions. It has no bearing on any ontological realities. It is the mind which ceases to identify with its thoughts and withdraws in the suspense of disbelief, or the suspense of discernment, not because there is nothing but because there is more than enough, so it doesn't matter whats what, and only in that carelessness before pure being, therein enjoying itself for its simple hearth, is this rapturous bliss of which angels are made to be enjoyed in a sensible, constant manner.

Quote :
I will give a brief overview of my argument for the meaninglessness if non-existence, or rather for the fact that something has always existed and it makes no sense to speak of a time at which there was nothing anywhere;

1) Principle of Sufficient Reason (it makes no sense, not even potentially or in imagination, to speak about something existing or occurring for literally no reason; you can always ask of everything “why did it occur? Why is it what it is, rather than something else?)

2) something exists right now (this cannot logically or sanely be denied)

3) ergo, given 1 and 2, something has always existed

4) ergo, given 3, it makes no sense to posit or speak about a time or original state of “void” wherein nothing existed anywhere, ever, at all.

Or, time is a possibility, and possibility has always existed - apparently. There are many ways to satisfy this question - but the one that finally satisfied me was "nothing has no power to enforce itself".


Quote :
Therefore, in my view anyway, something has always existed and this is an absolutely fundamental and undeniable Fact. So given this fact, to speak of void is to speak of a specific absence of something which already exists or which already existed. Void just means “hey this existing thing isn’t happening to be here anymore”.

As for chaos, I’ve stated how I define this. I don’t believe in an absolute chaos because that would imply an absolute lack (void) of order, which would make no sense. For any thing to exist or to be the case, it must have some sort of ordered-ness to it. Order simply means relations between, structure, being-ness; without such things, no thing could exist, since this is basically just describing what it means to exist anyway.

Chaos go me now means the basic ground of all tectonic differentiation; the medium generated by self valuing principle through having multiple instances of itself, which is basically what self-valuings encounter when they are perpetuating themselves; it is as if it is the abyss between principle and manifestation.

Daath, in qabaliq order, would correspond to chaos.
One can only know chaos by traversing it, because to know it not-traversingly is not to exist.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: If chaos, then what? Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:19 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
But it could be that as chaos, one traverses the rest of being and leaves fertile chaos in ones wake.

(ᚢ --- Digging downward-forward. Ploughing through life and leaving fertile chaos and upheaval as a trail. Mammoth strength. Marching barbarian army. The synchronized heartbeats of a million soldiers. Drums in the deep.) (Uruz is the abyss from which the primordial waters of Laguz flow - Billian lore)



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: If chaos, then what? Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:25 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
What follows is that chaos means power.

To be considered chaotic means to not be controlled.
But since there is nothing that doesn't consist of WtP, if it isn't controlled it means it must be self-governed.

Throughout written history this has been the case, the apparitions of power dreams, the structures not known that can't even be registered as proper structures, and yet don't fail to conquer;

chaos is being as it comes in.
Humanity is chaos-resistance.
And all life is human in this way.

Chaos can be known, but only like light can be seen.
You can see where it just struck.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: If chaos, then what? Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:30 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Power is a tolerance of chaos, and chaos is a tolerance of power.





___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Pezer
builder
builder
avatar

Posts : 2190
Join date : 2011-11-15
Location : deep caverns in caves


PostSubject: Re: If chaos, then what? Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:22 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Well it was a nice try anyway.

We may have better luck next time!
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: If chaos, then what? Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:44 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I was going to announce that reply, but I figured Id let you have it.

But yeah, Im still irritated by how predictable you become when you see disobedience.
I tend to understand peoples intuitions better than they do, and thats not appreciated.

I guess Ill have to grant you time to incorporate this all into your language.

Nice setup, anyway.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: If chaos, then what? Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:51 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Your chaos is still god. "Is it god?" no, god is dead.
It is the earth in which god was assimilated

You still fundamentally underestimate the depth of the principle, and the abyss that it represents.

Chaos is the result of necessity.
Chaos is not arbitrarily there, it has a character.
Existence isn't bland faceless pasta. Necessity has a countenance.

Look to the left.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: If chaos, then what? Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:57 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
The God recognizes your offering.

Wik wrote:
Chaos theory

Chaos theory is a branch of mathematics focusing on the behavior of dynamical systems that are highly sensitive to initial conditions. 'Chaos' is an interdisciplinary theory stating that within the apparent randomness of chaotic complex systems, there are underlying patterns, constant feedback loops, repetition, self-similarity, fractals, self-organization, and reliance on programming at the initial point known as sensitive dependence on initial conditions

So VO is actually recognizably and paradigmatically the mathematical axiom of chaos.
I didn't even realize how well it fits into the tradition of chaos-theory, how perfectly it completes it.

This solves the presentation problem. VO is axiomatic chaos theory.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: If chaos, then what? Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:09 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
ACT



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: If chaos, then what? Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:11 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Pezer, you genius pathfinder.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: If chaos, then what? Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:19 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Presently existing Chaos Theory can be defined as behavioural chaos theory.
Its mathematics are simulations.

Axiomatic chaos theory is the proper integrating and explicating algebra, gives what in geometry is a system of axes and the zero at its heart, except that it isn't a zero but a self-valuing reference frame.

The curvature of the mapping of the progression of connecting self-valuing is the fractal.

I saw the basic implication a while ago;

"Gravity is subtle local derivative of the sort of value transaction constants offered as the motions of the planets with respect to one another with respect to their star with respect to its galactic center, with respect to what lies beyond into the vast ordering fractal Omega." [Clockwork Blue]



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: If chaos, then what? Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:48 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Science is cruel.
The ontological tyranny can not be broken.
It can merely be seen for what it is, and cultivated.

All of the ground is turning green
and Johnny is working on a big machine
ain’t much left for the working man to sing

(Uncle Walt's Band, Getaway)

Thats what the episode ends with anyway.
For chaos theory, Silicon Valley is a good show.

Chaos is overwhelming odds which is why existence is heroic.
Daemonism usurps the chaotic to spit it out again, a whirling snake through lesser chains of probability, the kundalini eats chaos and breathes health into the realm.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: If chaos, then what? Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:54 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
How to get from chaos to health is in circles.

Time becomes a flower anyway, so why not work with it.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: If chaos, then what? Wed Jun 06, 2018 12:18 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Quote :
Logic is the will to predict. Without it, nothing can live. We observe regularities, and note these and include them into a system of other already discovered regularities. This has allowed us to conclude so many things that we know even less than we did when we knew nothing, because we have been caged inside our regularities and predictions and all the as yet unclassified rages among us unseen, and causes havoc and the end of our world. Affectance-Storms, nuclear fallout from broken self valuings, splinters of the anentropic shells blasting through our world as it stumbles.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: If chaos, then what? Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:59 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Chaos arises because of insufficient valuing, some of which is necessary and some of which isn’t.

There could be no chaos without an underlying and overlying order. Self-valuing is always inadequate to itself, to a degree, and has issues relating to other self-valuings; that is all chaos is. Complexity in both order and error and the necessities and contingencies of these.

Idealizing or metaphysicizing chaos is dumb, and will never justify anything like nihilism or apathy.


Author Message
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: If chaos, then what? Thu Jun 07, 2018 4:18 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Im going to disregard the notion of chaos outside what it means in chaos-theory, which is basically waiting for VO to make sense out of it.


What chaos is in chaos theory is not a metaphysical entity as Pezer seems to envision it, some great All, but simply ..... self-valuing.


Let me explain. In chaos theory, the source of the chaotic behaviour of any kind of progression/form/environment is seen to be the initial state of that form; and the initial state is the reference frame in terms of which the environment is valued so as to amount to this particular progressing shape.

So what you get is an environment consisting of innumerable such initial states, all valuing each other in terms of he's initial states, and this turns to reality, which indeed is highly fractalized.

I didn't quite know yet how to approach VO to develop a mathematics out of it, that problem is now solved.



--- indeed, the whole crux of this all is that synthetic self-valuing isn't sufficient to itself. The field of excess this asymmetry produces through what could be simplified as friction, is "the world" which is fractalized, and "chaotic" in that sense.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: If chaos, then what? Thu Jun 07, 2018 4:27 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Right, basically there are numerous different tectonic layers of valuings-goings-on that are forced by proximity to interact with one another but which actually individually operate by totally different continent principles and patterns, so that chaos appears in the middle, rhizomes of earth. That’s world, nature. Then as you say, these all try to value each other to themselves producing exponentially more chaos but also reconciliations into meta orders.

Regardless of all that, there is no Chaos God, there is no metaphysic here, other than order, logic as such; SV. Logic is THE fundamental. Period.

Chaos is just a bastard stepchild of logic. And even buried inside every SV since as I said, it’s always going to be self-inadequate and self-inexpressible to some degree. That’s also why when we use philosophy to refine ourselves toward minimizing those two conditions of limit, the chaos in our world greatly declines.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: If chaos, then what? Thu Jun 07, 2018 4:28 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I’ll take a look at that math later.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: If chaos, then what? Thu Jun 07, 2018 4:31 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Meta tektoniks of inter-layer replications and rhizomatic proliferations daemonically bent through the eye of SV.

Dude, fuck chaos. Life is little more than making chaos one’s own biatch.






___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: If chaos, then what? Thu Jun 07, 2018 4:42 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Vikings know how to tame chaos.

Eat and drink like Ragnar, I say ..”they said I’m the first of a species they call a real motjerfucker”.


I am the Alpha and the Omegle — order. Orderzzz

Logik , teh truthz. Yea I’m so fucking sick of bullshit. Over it. Done. So deal.

Mind ain’t no mystery son.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: If chaos, then what? Thu Jun 07, 2018 5:04 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Gotta agree with all that.

Chaos by itself is definitely not a true concept.

It only becomes conceptual with chaos-theory which ironically is a mathematics of increasing order, orders so intertwined and sensitive that they appear unpredictable.

They are so causally responsive that they even look chaotic.

Chaos as the summum of increasing order.
Image
For behold, all acts of love and pleasure are my rituals
User avatar
Jakob
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 6100
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:23 pm
Location: look at my suit

Re: The Philosophers

Postby Jakob » Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:48 am

Pezer
builder
builder
avatar

Posts : 2190
Join date : 2011-11-15
Location : deep caverns in caves


PostSubject: For Whom The Hawk Shrieks Wed Jul 25, 2018 1:31 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Ask not for whom the hawk shrieks,

It shrieks for thee
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: For Whom The Hawk Shrieks Wed Jul 25, 2018 10:58 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
central hawk stare undoes even the strongest man.




https://i.imgur.com/RN4yEAp.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/PqLloEA.jpg






Author Message
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: logic of beliefs Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:32 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
religions and belief systems are really nothing more than languages, words. like a word, a belief means nothing on its own, it exists simply as a representation and expressive symbol for some truth. a word on its own is meaningless, but it has meaning in how the word points to and represents something true and real. this is also how religions and belief in general work.

so it’s not a question of if a religion of belief system is true or not, just like it’s not a question if a word is true or not. words don’t exist, not really; same with religious and other belief systems. what actually exists is the meaning, truth, reality, facts, significance which these mere symbolic systems of represented in point to and allow us to see.

if a word, a religion, or a belief system is able to represent something true then that word, religion or belief system is justified in doing its job. it doesn’t matter if the religion or belief uses “untrue” aspects like ideas of gods or whatever, because those ideas are literally the same type of thing as a word is: just a mostly arbitrary scratching of symbols that has no meaning in itself but is able to be used in a larger system of similar symbols, namely languages, to recall and represent something truthful and real.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6661
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: logic of beliefs Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:57 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Yes, there is no word without assumption and no second word without adding some, the building of any sentence is an expression of complex beliefs.

Some beliefs are built on grammar, the idea that there is a subject and an object and a verb, an activity that should stand separate of these and that yet binds them, etc -
these are relatively deep yet still naive beliefs.

And some beliefs are entirely built of trigger words.
this is the system of any excited, disenfranchised mass.

Trump is one of the few rare folks out there to ever pull this shit who hard just to distract from it, so we can get back to deeper beliefs, built on greatness rather than on triggeredness. You have to use the word, it is fundamentally a tool, and its materials to work on are man, and the art you're creating out of it is what is pitifully called a congregation. A movement.

VO has been pure because it doesn't do this. Its not an easy term to get used to at all, it rearranges your whole mind, it reinforces the whole structure of meaning giving, it annihilates the difference between subject, verb and object. The belief is now restricted to a grammar that disrupts all previous grammar. It is a fundamentally iconoclastic belief, it can't destroy itself because it is already made of the same stuff of what nihilism is made of. It is nihilism rearranged, so that it turns out as earth. The pieces in their place, we see that relativity of values is not a top down condemnation of value but a grond to generate whatever already is of value - such as the sense that there is something of value - from what is irrevocably here, now.

De-facto-ism.
Thats where you don't need words in the first place.
seeing what speaks for itself first without the use of any word.

Of course, if you're in a busy city this can get pretty depressing. Among talking people you need to be talking or you'll be violated and disrupting.
A city is "all talk".
City talk radio, almost a tautology. And in this snow of noise, a new ground to silence and abstinence from belief is born - the jazz like talk that passes the time, in which a pure stoic soul takes hold that believes nothing, and firmly. Such a man can discover a universe of feels in any given thing, that is the advantage. A truly firm nihilist can always be moved by seeing that someone put in a little extra effort. And this is what nature made of, extra effort - and so the nihilist becomes a philosopher, by seeing that to be nihilistic may be true, but apparently just not good enough. This is when envy comes to the aid of wisdom. All sins have their place.
Image
For behold, all acts of love and pleasure are my rituals
User avatar
Jakob
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 6100
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:23 pm
Location: look at my suit

Re: The Philosophers

Postby Jakob » Mon Nov 26, 2018 6:37 pm

Fixed Cross
Image
Doric basterd
Doric basterd


Posts : 6665
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Neutrinos as quasi-being Tue Nov 29, 2011 10:16 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
It is possible to say that "a neutrino" is only a theoretical unity interpreted out of a collection of detected properties assumably resultant of disintegration of better understood forms of energy, things that more literally fit the description 'particle'.

If so, a neutrino, and this goes for more subatomic definitions, is to be understood, if we are aiming for epistemic exactness, a case of transfer of information. I.e., parts of what we may define as a particle -- empirical results amounting to almost a particle.

What kind of structural consistency does a neutrino have? It does not respond to electromagnetism, only weak-forces affect it.

It may exist only as our assumption, its structural integrity may be a fiction, an inference made because of the assumption that all change detected must be the effect of particles, which is how we still understand quanta.

It may not be the case that the transferred energy amounting to the detected neutrino is caused to be measured by it being there as such, separate from the measurement. It may be that the qualities that amount to the definition 'neutrino' are in part 'teleported', by the very expectation of and preparation for the 'arrival'.

A neutrino may in part be caused ( in terms of space-time consistency ) by the placement of the receptive material, the terms of its being-measured, which accounts for its existence. The neutrino can not positively affect, the conditions for its existence must be created. Part of the work of its being is done for it -- this may account for the lack of space-time momentum -- it is in part a non-entity, appearing here and there as 'real', actively constant particles permit it.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides


Last edited by Fixed Cross on Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:57 pm; edited 6 times in total
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6665
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: Neutrinos as quasi-being Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:08 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
It is clear that what I describe as method to measure / establish is what is always used in physics / chemistry, particle-science. Assumption of what will happen if the calculations are correct, suspension of judgment until the assumption is recognized in what occurs. I would propose that perhaps in the case of / at the level of neutrinos, our methods of establishment what "is" are unsound.

It seems to be a natural assumption that the surplus of gravitation measured/inferred from the movement of certain galaxies, may be the result of wrongfully applying laws that we have establlished to predict the movements occurring in our own "system" - galaxy.

It is my understanding at least that Dark Matter, the assumption made necessary by the application of Newtonian Law to "The Entire Universe" (the assumption of a universal totality) would be present mainly in a specific form of galaxy, one that is relatively young, and less circular, more elliptic.

I have read this at one point but I can not find it on the internet. The point would be that dark matter, i.e. surplus gravitation, is unequally distributed in proportion with "legal", expected gravitation.







Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6665
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Phonons Sat Dec 03, 2011 2:06 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster


Image

Apparently, such auto-controlled turbulences are sometimes considered as having particle like properties.

>>>>In physics, a phonon is a collective excitation in a periodic, elastic arrangement of atoms or molecules in condensed matter, such as solids and some liquids. Often referred to as a quasiparticle, it represents an excited state in the quantum mechanical quantization of the modes of vibrations of elastic structures of interacting particles.<<<< http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonon

Very useful information.
This forum is intended to collect useful models
applicable by value - logic.

IN order to create a physical science
based the ethical aspect of the will to power.
the artificial removed from intelligence, the cruelty of the stupid is unnecessary

assemble the logics of chemistry and physics around the activity to value all in terms of self,
which amounts to nothing more than this activity or tendency -

Lordly courage imagines the good, malicious ambition anticipates profiteering, the struggle for power continues as the stakes are raised...
tragic... born out of the spirit of music.





___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Parodites
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 757
Join date : 2011-12-11


PostSubject: Re: Phonons Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:27 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Although I am not a fan of dialectics and Hegel, the man did make a good point. How are we supposed to conduct scientific research if our science is not at every single step of the way complimented by a science of the mind, which is the proper philosophy? Our science has never been complimented in this way, and thus we run into unbridgeable gulfs in our knowledge, like that between classical and quantum physics, we run into paradoxes and singularities, etc.
Image
For behold, all acts of love and pleasure are my rituals
User avatar
Jakob
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 6100
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:23 pm
Location: look at my suit

Re: The Philosophers

Postby Jakob » Mon Nov 26, 2018 6:38 pm

James S Saint
rational metaphysicist
rational metaphysicist


Posts : 244
Join date : 2011-12-26


PostSubject: Achieving Faster than Light Sun Jan 01, 2012 11:31 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I have often stated that absolutely nothing can ever travel faster than what we refer to as "the speed of light". But just as a minor interesting note, there are technically actually 2 exceptions.

My meta-particle tracking program monitors for anything with gimbal velocities and anything traveling faster than light, primarily to help hunt down any errors in the program. Recently, I found it triggering yet I could find no error in the program. I investigated the equations over and over and was a bit puzzled as to how a particular particle could have a velocity greater than the max possible.

Well, as it turned out, a bit of a philosophical thought came to mind and revealed what was happening.

A particle's location is defined by its center. By tracking its center, one knows at what velocity it is traveling. But in the case of particles, especially particles that are just beginning to form, an interesting effect takes place.

If a particulate is already traveling close to the speed of light, a common occurrence, and it runs up on a similar particulate running slightly slower, you would think the end velocity would merely be an average of the two. And it is.. sortta. But what happens is that the two particulates merge into a single particle and guess what happens to the center of the first? Quite suddenly the center of the "particle" went from position A to position B (a particulate width distance away) almost instantaneously.

Of course the reason was simply that the particulate was still in a growth stage and as it grows, its center can outrun all of its constituents. Technically speaking, that really is the same as traveling faster than light. So it can be legitimately stated that a growing particle can, for a short time at least, travel faster than light. Of course, that time is in the range of fractional pico seconds, but still, it is an interesting note.

Then it occurred to me that every particle is actually growing and shirking at the same rate all the time and is thus stable. But what if I were to cause it to grow faster on one side and shrink faster on the opposite side? Again, as it turns out, for short times, that can actually happen and no doubt in space, it does happen.

The requirements for causing such an event involves a charge gradient which of course cannot continue for very long, but it could lead to much greater durations of exceeding the speed of light for non-growing particles than the growing particles mentioned before. And an ideal place to find such a naturally occurring situation would be the famed black hole. I can safely say, that some of the particles speeding into a black hole, especially one with a significant charge field, will in fact rush to their demise even faster than the light rushing along side of them. For how long that might be, I couldn't venture a guess.

The shifting center would not actually add to the momentum of the particle, so no common energy equation theories get violated. The particle merely shows up at the destination and its demise before its photon partner.

..just an interesting observation.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
James S Saint
rational metaphysicist
rational metaphysicist


Posts : 244
Join date : 2011-12-26


PostSubject: Re: Achieving Faster than Light Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:07 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Oh hell..

Very shortly after posting that OP, it dawned on me how one could theoretically keep a particle experiencing a positive gradient and thus continue to travel faster than light. It would be extremely difficult to arrange, but theoretically possible.

Let's say you had an electron orbiting its nucleus and had the technical means to increase the charge (or mass) field in front of the electron while reducing it behind the electron. By arranging to do that sequentially, much like a stepper motor or an alternator, the field changing constituents would not need travel or change faster than light for the particle to never be able to catch up to the changing field in front of it. As the particle passes, the field in each location would be reduced back to a lower level.

The electron would be in a state of constantly growing more in front and shirking behind and thus its center would be shifting forward faster than its constituent mass could possibly travel. For as long as the device was operational and kept sync with the orbiting electron, the electron would achieve and maintain faster than light travel.

I really hate it when I outwit my own proclamations of impossibility...sigh Mad
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
James S Saint
rational metaphysicist
rational metaphysicist


Posts : 244
Join date : 2011-12-26


PostSubject: Re: Achieving Faster than Light Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:34 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Continuing even further...

Again theoretically, a linear accelerator and relay could be arranged such that a particle could carry the information of an event in a straight line.

As the particle either traveled linearly itself, or relayed its effect to other particles inline, even though its own charge field could not grow faster than light such as to have affect as it passed, it could reach the end of a line and begin having its field effect upon the terminal detecting device before a photon had a chance to get to the detector.

Information traveling faster than light... gees.. it must be bad news.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5478
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: Achieving Faster than Light Mon Jan 02, 2012 2:24 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Very interesting - can you expand on how you understand what a photon is? With respect to an otherwise "particle" or growing "pre- or semi-particular" field/cloud?



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Abstract
Oracle
Oracle
avatar

Posts : 142
Join date : 2011-11-15
Age : 31
Location : The Moon


PostSubject: Re: Achieving Faster than Light Mon Jan 02, 2012 6:20 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
If the development of the center when to things collide occurs so fast is it possible to use such a principle for something like at least faster then light speed communication? For example the merger of a long string of particles can be watched and when the center shifts in one way we have a 0 and another way we have a 1...or something like that...



___________
"There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates
"Nature herself has imprinted on the minds of all the idea of God." -Cicero
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain an idea without necessarily believing it." -Aristotle
"I have gained this by philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law." -Aristotle
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
James S Saint
rational metaphysicist
rational metaphysicist


Posts : 244
Join date : 2011-12-26


PostSubject: Re: Achieving Faster than Light Mon Jan 02, 2012 8:32 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Abstract wrote:
If the development of the center when to things collide occurs so fast is it possible to use such a principle for something like at least faster then light speed communication?
At this point, it seems definite. But I'm not going to make any promises until I create one inside my metaspace. The great thing about my "hyperspace window" is that it is actually real. Anything that can occur inside that space (short of programming errors) can and does occur in physical space. And if you REALLY want to get buzzed, realize that anything that occurs within that window can be arranged to occur in societies. One society can relay information to another faster than any electronic signal could pass that information. But of course that would be incredibly difficult to arrange.

Abstract wrote:
For example the merger of a long string of particles can be watched and when the center shifts in one way we have a 0 and another way we have a 1...or something like that...
"Something like that" perhaps, but I don't think merely a string of particles would cut it. I'm pretty sure that it would be impossible to maintain that string (but not making any proclamation concerning the impossible for a while... bet you love that don'cha Wink ). And I'm not so sure than transferring from particle to particle in that fashion would cut it either. There would be inertia issues. I suspect the way to go would involve transverse displacement such as to produce a wave along the side of the particles. But merely a very finely tuned special particle accelerator would do the trick. No more than one particle per "bit" would be necessary.

If I wasn't so brain fried from merely creating the metaspace, I would be creating a meta-communicator ("subspace communicator") already.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Abstract
Oracle
Oracle
avatar

Posts : 142
Join date : 2011-11-15
Age : 31
Location : The Moon


PostSubject: Re: Achieving Faster than Light Mon Jan 02, 2012 8:43 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
James S Saint wrote:
Abstract wrote:
If the development of the center when to things collide occurs so fast is it possible to use such a principle for something like at least faster then light speed communication?
At this point, it seems definite. But I'm not going to make any promises until I create one inside my metaspace. The great thing about my "hyperspace window" is that it is actually real. Anything that can occur inside that space (short of programming errors) can and does occur in physical space. And if you REALLY want to get buzzed, realize that anything that occurs within that window can be arranged to occur in societies. One society can relay information to another faster than any electronic signal could pass that information. But of course that would be incredibly difficult to arrange.

Abstract wrote:
For example the merger of a long string of particles can be watched and when the center shifts in one way we have a 0 and another way we have a 1...or something like that...
"Something like that" perhaps, but I don't think merely a string of particles would cut it. I'm pretty sure that it would be impossible to maintain that string (but not making any proclamation concerning the impossible for a while... bet you love that don'cha Wink ). And I'm not so sure than transferring from particle to particle in that fashion would cut it either. There would be inertia issues. I suspect the way to go would involve transverse displacement such as to produce a wave along the side of the particles. But merely a very finely tuned special particle accelerator would do the trick. No more than one particle per "bit" would be necessary.

If I wasn't so brain fried from merely creating the metaspace, I would be creating a meta-communicator ("subspace communicator") already.
Sounds kool what is this meta space you have created... is it a simulation in a computer?



___________
"There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates
"Nature herself has imprinted on the minds of all the idea of God." -Cicero
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain an idea without necessarily believing it." -Aristotle
"I have gained this by philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law." -Aristotle
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
James S Saint
rational metaphysicist
rational metaphysicist


Posts : 244
Join date : 2011-12-26


PostSubject: Re: Achieving Faster than Light Mon Jan 02, 2012 8:57 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Capable wrote:
Very interesting - can you expand on how you understand what a photon is? With respect to an otherwise "particle" or growing "pre- or semi-particular" field/cloud?
That one is a bit of an interesting story from my perspective.

Just shortly before I finished installing the rules for afflate engagement into the program, I could already see how and why a particle was going to form.. and it wasn't how I had previously speculated. And sure enough, immediately small particles began to form. Not that it was quite that simple. At one point before I got the details ironed out, the first particle that formed just kept growing. That wouldn't have been terribly interesting, but the particle gains a naturally occurring spin and shortly it exploded, leaving little meta bits all over my screen.. quite picturesque actually. I wish I had thought to take a screen shot before I corrected the problem.

Anyway, even after I had worked with the particle formations and installed various monitor and tracking devices, I realized that I still hadn't seen or figured out exactly what the photon was all about. None of my particles could qualify as a photon. I was puzzled for a few days before I suddenly laughed as it hit me, "what an idiot".

A photon is only a particle in the sense that it can maintain its form and philosophically anything that maintains its form is an "object" or particle. But the more informative truth is that a photon is merely a part of a wave. Take any ole traveling EM wave and chop off all but a tiny bit without disturbing that bit, and you have your photon.

Despite what contemporary physics will tell you, photons don't really have "frequency", but rather they are a culmination of chaos that has a Fourier dispersal of aberrant frequencies with a mean at the frequency noted by ye ole common physicist. I had realized that as I created my "Afflate Analysis", I was creating "Photon Analysis". Every one of my afflates (200,000) is a photon, a clump of noisy EM with an average affectance state 1st derivative.

But avoid the idea that a photon, even as a particle, can maintain its form as it encounters other photons. They don't merely interact, they often combine and take on as many shapes as you will ever see in a sky of clouds. They smear, twist, entwine, break away, disperse, and on rare occasion even develop a spin, although once they develop a self sustaining spin, they gain inertia and are no longer a mere afflate or photon and can no longer travel freely.


Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
James S Saint
rational metaphysicist
rational metaphysicist


Posts : 244
Join date : 2011-12-26


PostSubject: Re: Achieving Faster than Light Mon Jan 02, 2012 9:14 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Abstract wrote:

Sounds kool what is this meta space you have created... is it a simulation in a computer?
A simulation is where a programmer takes a set of rules for the behavior of an object and has the processor dictate those rules to a replica of the object. Every video game is a simulator.

But my program is different in a very serious way. Although it uses simulation techniques here and there, what it is a part of is a actual reality that is not a mere simulation. The difference is in that if you follow the exact rules of reality, then you ARE reality, not an imitation or simulation of a speculated shape and behavior.

The objects formed within a true metaspace are real and formed only by the rules of reality itself. They are not a construction in the normal sense. They form from what would appear to be nothing, into no more than exactly what they are, not merely something with similar shape or behavior ("simulation") of something. A true metaparticle is as real as any physical particle, formed by the same hand and of the same "stuff", merely a step higher.

As far as I know, I have sitting on my desk the first and only true/real "hyperspace"/ "metaspace" window in human history, albeit crude at the moment, and in a state of disrepair half the time from me trying to add a mod or change something, then requiring anything from hours to weeks trying to hunt down what I screwed up. Mad


Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
James S Saint
rational metaphysicist
rational metaphysicist


Posts : 244
Join date : 2011-12-26


PostSubject: Re: Achieving Faster than Light Mon Jan 02, 2012 9:28 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Btw, I refer to my metaspace program as "Jack", because frankly, until you learn Rational Metaphysics, you don't know jack. Cool
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Abstract
Oracle
Oracle
avatar

Posts : 142
Join date : 2011-11-15
Age : 31
Location : The Moon


PostSubject: Re: Achieving Faster than Light Mon Jan 02, 2012 1:46 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
James S Saint wrote:
Abstract wrote:

Sounds kool what is this meta space you have created... is it a simulation in a computer?
A simulation is where a programmer takes a set of rules for the behavior of an object and has the processor dictate those rules to a replica of the object. Every video game is a simulator.

But my program is different in a very serious way. Although it uses simulation techniques here and there, what it is a part of is a actual reality that is not a mere simulation. The difference is in that if you follow the exact rules of reality, then you ARE reality, not an imitation or simulation of a speculated shape and behavior.

The objects formed within a true metaspace are real and formed only by the rules of reality itself. They are not a construction in the normal sense. They form from what would appear to be nothing, into no more than exactly what they are, not merely something with similar shape or behavior ("simulation") of something. A true metaparticle is as real as any physical particle, formed by the same hand and of the same "stuff", merely a step higher.

As far as I know, I have sitting on my desk the first and only true/real "hyperspace"/ "metaspace" window in human history, albeit crude at the moment, and in a state of disrepair half the time from me trying to add a mod or change something, then requiring anything from hours to weeks trying to hunt down what I screwed up. Mad


what's it look like?



___________
"There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates
"Nature herself has imprinted on the minds of all the idea of God." -Cicero
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain an idea without necessarily believing it." -Aristotle
"I have gained this by philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law." -Aristotle
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Abstract
Oracle
Oracle
avatar

Posts : 142
Join date : 2011-11-15
Age : 31
Location : The Moon


PostSubject: Re: Achieving Faster than Light Mon Jan 02, 2012 1:47 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
James S Saint wrote:
Btw, I refer to my metaspace program as "Jack", because frankly, until you learn Rational Metaphysics, you don't know jack. Cool
good one. farao



___________
"There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates
"Nature herself has imprinted on the minds of all the idea of God." -Cicero
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain an idea without necessarily believing it." -Aristotle
"I have gained this by philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law." -Aristotle
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Abstract
Oracle
Oracle
avatar

Posts : 142
Join date : 2011-11-15
Age : 31
Location : The Moon


PostSubject: Re: Achieving Faster than Light Mon Jan 02, 2012 1:54 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
do you have any screen shots of this thing?

And is not all mass just a wave? energy in a particular state or vibration?



___________
"There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates
"Nature herself has imprinted on the minds of all the idea of God." -Cicero
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain an idea without necessarily believing it." -Aristotle
"I have gained this by philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law." -Aristotle
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
James S Saint
rational metaphysicist
rational metaphysicist


Posts : 244
Join date : 2011-12-26


PostSubject: Re: Achieving Faster than Light Mon Jan 02, 2012 11:37 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Abstract wrote:
what's it look like?
I haven't gone to all the trouble to format a series of pics so as to present anything of much value yet, but let me give you merely an upload of one screen shot I made a while back. Getting all of the details straight and bringing Jack to life over and over after my inadvertent screwups was a very serious and grueling endeavor for me and frankly, I am still a bit brain fried by it. I very, very seriously need a break.

https://i.servimg.com/u/f45/17/15/61/06/10-31-12.jpg

That was an earlier snapshot using a tracker to locate and follow particulates forming. The big circles are the tracker.

What you are seeing is the center x-y plane of a cube of metaspace. At that stage, the tracker would follow the drifting Brownian type motion of the particle throughout metaspace while keeping the screen centered around the particle, or in that case, 2 particles. The red circle is indicating a particle that is in another x-y plane along the z axis. You can only watch one plane at a time in 2D of course.

I started to create a 3D spreadsheet for Jack, but Excel turned out to be too limited and I didn't want to go relearn C++.

Jack has had various brain surgeries since that pic and looks a little better, but the entire thing wasn't really for sake of public display so most all of it is merely sufficient for me. I need to create some good animations and screenshots for full explanations later sometime.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6665
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: Achieving Faster than Light Sun Jan 08, 2012 10:48 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
James S Saint wrote:
A particle's location is defined by its center. By tracking its center, one knows at what velocity it is traveling. But in the case of particles, especially particles that are just beginning to form, an interesting effect takes place.

If a particulate is already traveling close to the speed of light, a common occurrence, and it runs up on a similar particulate running slightly slower, you would think the end velocity would merely be an average of the two. And it is.. sortta. But what happens is that the two particulates merge into a single particle and guess what happens to the center of the first? Quite suddenly the center of the "particle" went from position A to position B (a particulate width distance away) almost instantaneously.
Quote :
The shifting center would not actually add to the momentum of the particle, so no common energy equation theories get violated. The particle merely shows up at the destination and its demise before its photon partner.
very interesting. In fact this seems like precisely the technical explanation I was looking for on physics fora when I posed my neutrino 'theory', the idea that what in fact travels faster than light is not actually a particle in the sense of momentum, but simply the components that would theoretically constitute a particle. What travels faster than light is not matter itself, but the structural "information" (what comes to us, the thing that makes us interpret something as particle).

I am curious to see more of Jack, by the way -- this picture looks like you're doing some complicated work there, but it is hard to make out of it what it is , as I am not used at all to such environments. I would like to see it "move" - to see what happens, changes, to get a picture of what is going on. Not to say that I expect to then understand the whole setup, let alone the math, but perhaps I would learn a bit about the technical aspects involved in such a project.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
James S Saint
rational metaphysicist
rational metaphysicist


Posts : 244
Join date : 2011-12-26


PostSubject: Re: Achieving Faster than Light Mon Jan 09, 2012 9:13 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Yes, I need to find a good way to do the You-tube type of thing or merely a sequencing applet that can install here.

I keep trying to clean up Jacks neurology a bit and every time, I end up having to spend days or weeks reviving him. But I want to make the display a little more revealing such as to do just as you said; show the motion involved and little more of the actual relations.

I really need a C++ programmer associate to make it truly a refined public display. I wasn't expecting it to get so complicated, so I started at a bad point having to use VBA. I hadn't used programming languages for years and my memory isn't worth anything any more, so it isn't really worth the effort for me to relearn C++ merely to make a public display. The essential demo-proof for academia was the point of the project and it has gotten to that point.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Abstract
Oracle
Oracle
avatar

Posts : 142
Join date : 2011-11-15
Age : 31
Location : The Moon


PostSubject: Re: Achieving Faster than Light Mon Jan 09, 2012 3:20 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
James S Saint wrote:
Yes, I need to find a good way to do the You-tube type of thing or merely a sequencing applet that can install here.

I keep trying to clean up Jacks neurology a bit and every time, I end up having to spend days or weeks reviving him. But I want to make the display a little more revealing such as to do just as you said; show the motion involved and little more of the actual relations.

I really need a C++ programmer associate to make it truly a refined public display. I wasn't expecting it to get so complicated, so I started at a bad point having to use VBA. I hadn't used programming languages for years and my memory isn't worth anything any more, so it isn't really worth the effort for me to relearn C++ merely to make a public display. The essential demo-proof for academia was the point of the project and it has gotten to that point.

I know C++... but not really that well... though 'm good with algorithms...



___________
"There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates
"Nature herself has imprinted on the minds of all the idea of God." -Cicero
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain an idea without necessarily believing it." -Aristotle
"I have gained this by philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law." -Aristotle
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
James S Saint
rational metaphysicist
rational metaphysicist


Posts : 244
Join date : 2011-12-26


PostSubject: Re: Achieving Faster than Light Mon Jan 09, 2012 5:16 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Abstract wrote:
I know C++... but not really that well... though 'm good with algorithms...
Have any urge to move to Oregon? Shocked
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Abstract
Oracle
Oracle
avatar

Posts : 142
Join date : 2011-11-15
Age : 31
Location : The Moon


PostSubject: Re: Achieving Faster than Light Tue Jan 10, 2012 6:51 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
James S Saint wrote:
Abstract wrote:
I know C++... but not really that well... though 'm good with algorithms...
Have any urge to move to Oregon? Shocked
Lol...
Unfortunately i doubt that would work...
But if you ever need some help at least thinking about how to construct an algorithm and loop things and such feel free to ask... I might be a little out of age with my c++ vocabulary but I can figure most stuff out...but I can be lazy...



___________
"There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates
"Nature herself has imprinted on the minds of all the idea of God." -Cicero
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain an idea without necessarily believing it." -Aristotle
"I have gained this by philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law." -Aristotle
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
James S Saint
rational metaphysicist
rational metaphysicist


Posts : 244
Join date : 2011-12-26


PostSubject: Re: Achieving Faster than Light Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:44 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Well, like most professors, I am going to leave the rest of the "grunt work" up to the undergrads, but thks. Cool






Message
Pezer
builder
builder
avatar

Posts : 2190
Join date : 2011-11-15
Location : deep caverns in caves


PostSubject: Psychoanalysts: The Last Bastions Of Absolute Idealist Philosophy Thu May 17, 2012 5:06 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Who else is taken seriously in a metaphysical sense?

They continue to believe that absolute objectivization for it's own sake not only exists but, if achieved, will justify its own existence.

Of course, christiandomity (subconscious kidnapers of the subconscious, so very close to power, to boot) tends to filter through like in most nihilistic objectifying systems.

Again, disproving god does not prove the devil: non-nihilistic (in this case cannot-justify-its-own-existence) does not thus mean stupid.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6665
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: Psychoanalysts: The Last Bastions Of Absolute Idealist Philosophy Sat Aug 11, 2012 10:51 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I see psychoanalysis as a set of techniques, among which are observing, keeping silent and suspension of judgment.
It's premise, the subconscious, has proven to be scientifically reliable. Technology of power.

Ideally, the analyst is the agent of the subjects powerstruggle with a hijacked subconscious.





___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Parodites
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 757
Join date : 2011-12-11


PostSubject: Re: Psychoanalysts: The Last Bastions Of Absolute Idealist Philosophy Sat Aug 11, 2012 10:58 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Psychoanalysis and the Tragic Sense of life.


http://www.columbia.edu/~rr322/Tragedy.html



Great read.





Psychoanalysis and Tragedy



Just as the journey is so often the metaphor for the process of discovery that takes place at the very heart of tragedy, so, too, is it one of the most compelling of metaphors for the process of psychoanalysis. This is true because in both instances the central figures are striving to discover things that involve unknown territory and primitive dangers. In both, a contemplative stroll on the parapet can end up bringing one face to face with one's terrifying ghosts; a walk down to the harbor can lead ultimately to a confrontation with one's monsters. In neither case does the confrontation occur by chance. Rather, it is only when the journey is undertaken with a special courage and pursued with an unusual perseverance that such monumental confrontations ever come to be. Such journeys are precisely the province of the worlds of psychoanalysis and of tragedy.

To undertake such a journey is what is asked of patients in psychoanalysis. It is a journey into territory neither analyst nor analysand knows completely, and both participants must recognize that they cannot know in advance what they will ultimately discover.

Nevertheless, it is not a journey which is entered into blindly, for each party knows something of what is in store. The analyst, as expert --or perhaps guide, has been on such expeditions before. He knows how to go about such an exploration, even if the particular territory in question is new to him. The analysand, on the other hand, is the owner of the territory. He has far more local knowledge and initial familiarity with the landscape and its inhabitants --even if there be regions he has walled off and not dared to enter into very deeply.

Psychoanalysis, like tragedy, is vitally concerned with those regions of an individual's experience that defy exploration. It recognizes that there are secrets people carry deep within themselves and treat as unapproachable. At times the secrets are horrible, and always the secrets are terrifying. The very concept of the unconscious, quintessential to all psychoanalytic theories, is predicated on precisely this belief. Whether conceived of as being completely the result of repression, as it is in most post-Freudian systems, or in the more classical way, as a combination of some instinctual inheritance and that which is repressed thereafter, the unconscious represents that part of an individual's psychic existence that the individual considers too dangerous to be known.

The avoidance of these terrible secrets constitutes the essence of all psychopathology. Erwin Singer (1973) wrote that at the heart of all psychopathology was the abandonment of "a birth right and a fundamentally given human capacity: to see what can be seen, to grasp what can be grasped." (p.187) Thus it is that the forces of repression counsel one, like Jocasta warned Oedipus: "I beg you --do not hunt this out --I beg you, if you have any care for your own life." Psychoanalysis calls on one, like Oedipus, to "not be persuaded to let be the chance of finding the whole thing out clearly."

If there is any value judgment that is intrinsically psychoanalytic, it is the Socratic bias that the unreflective life is not worth living, or its New Testament version, "The truth will set you free." Freud (1915) insisted that psychoanalysis must have at its very foundation the absolute commitment to truthfulness. As in the tragic vision, the psychoanalytic approach demands that one use "all the resources of his soul," (Freud, 1916-1917, p. 454; here using Riviere's translation) in the pursuit of the truth.

Tragedy and psychoanalysis are cognizant both of man's hunger for full and direct experience of himself and of his world, and of his simultaneous propensity desperately to hide from it. Both place ultimate stress on the value of the quest for this truth, while at the same time recognizing the monumental courage required not to flee and abandon the journey.

Thus psychoanalysis attempts inexorably to draw one deeper and deeper into this journey of confrontation with one's self. It calls on the individual to overcome his repressions and face that from which he has been hiding --to transcend the bounds of the secure systems he has established to keep full and immediate experience at bay.

The patient in psychoanalysis, like the tragic hero, senses that this journey threatens ultimately to bring him face to face with some ancient terror that stalks his world. And, in one way or another, all psychoanalytic theories would agree with him.



___________
A sik þau trûðu
Image
For behold, all acts of love and pleasure are my rituals
User avatar
Jakob
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 6100
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:23 pm
Location: look at my suit

Re: The Philosophers

Postby Jakob » Mon Nov 26, 2018 6:39 pm

Abstract
Image
Oracle
Oracle


Posts : 142
Join date : 2011-11-15
Age : 31
Location : The Moon


PostSubject: How can the physical be all there is? Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:10 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
The physical is by virtue of what we call laws of nature, of science. But how can the answer to understanding reality be explained by physicality for that would require explaining the laws that allow and govern physicality by means of physicality.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5478
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: How can the physical be all there is? Tue Dec 27, 2011 7:04 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Abstract wrote:
The physical is by virtue of what we call laws of nature, of science. But how can the answer to understanding reality be explained by physicality for that would require explaining the laws that allow and govern physicality by means of physicality.

I tend to think of physicality as a merely sufficient relatability between forms (of energy, or whatever). Forms attain to certain degrees of scope, influencing power and "force" potential (i.e. to act as a resistance to/against other forces). The extent to which this "degree of scope..." overlaps from one form/entity to another would be the extent that each entity "perceives" (experiences, is affected by) the other as "physical", i.e. as solid or substantial.

Thus I tend to think that we already have a means of explaining the laws of nature in a way that appeals to a basic, rational understanding of physicality. In other words I see no problem here.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Abstract
Oracle
Oracle
avatar

Posts : 142
Join date : 2011-11-15
Age : 31
Location : The Moon


PostSubject: Re: How can the physical be all there is? Wed Dec 28, 2011 8:33 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Capable wrote:
Abstract wrote:
The physical is by virtue of what we call laws of nature, of science. But how can the answer to understanding reality be explained by physicality for that would require explaining the laws that allow and govern physicality by means of physicality.

I tend to think of physicality as a merely sufficient relatability between forms (of energy, or whatever). Forms attain to certain degrees of scope, influencing power and "force" potential (i.e. to act as a resistance to/against other forces). The extent to which this "degree of scope..." overlaps from one form/entity to another would be the extent that each entity "perceives" (experiences, is affected by) the other as "physical", i.e. as solid or substantial.

Thus I tend to think that we already have a means of explaining the laws of nature in a way that appeals to a basic, rational understanding of physicality. In other words I see no problem here.
Perhaps I shouldn't have related this only to physicality... perhaps what I am asking is how can we explain the laws without referencing other laws, and as such how can we explain all laws...



___________
"There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates
"Nature herself has imprinted on the minds of all the idea of God." -Cicero
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain an idea without necessarily believing it." -Aristotle
"I have gained this by philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law." -Aristotle
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
chise



Posts : 9
Join date : 2011-12-09


PostSubject: Re: How can the physical be all there is? Wed Dec 28, 2011 10:04 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Abstract wrote:
The physical is by virtue of what we call laws of nature, of science. But how can the answer to understanding reality be explained by physicality for that would require explaining the laws that allow and govern physicality by means of physicality.


Interesting. One such law that I see needing addressing would be: what holds the form of a physicality at a subatomic level, into a togetherness; what force, mysterious law holds the physical intact; the beloved atoms what is there link and connection to each other? how do they know to form a relationship? what is the intelligence of the atom?
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
chise



Posts : 9
Join date : 2011-12-09


PostSubject: Re: How can the physical be all there is? Wed Dec 28, 2011 11:32 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
In having to undress and strip the beloved, layer per layer, garment after undergarmet, we arive at the heart which is the nuclei, within it - are pulsating arteries called, protons, deep inside the pulsation we find the quark.

(The layers are levels of reality? Each reality is held up by consciousness and energy? And when these levels are tighted, pressed together and coagulated, by a mind (?) we have matter in its rawest state as it appears?
The deeper the reality; the smaller the particle, the more powerful the energy.. as evidenced by the atomic bomb... The levels of reality and their make up is a mystery. I posit that what some see that isn't visible on the level we're accustomed to is a form from these other levels? the unusual, that which remains unexplained, such as instantenous healings, instant manifestations, are fits performed through the accessing of these other realms and their energetic fields? in cases of death and dying, the corruption and decay of the human body, the unseen personality self goes to such realms, unseen worlds?

Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Abstract
Oracle
Oracle
avatar

Posts : 142
Join date : 2011-11-15
Age : 31
Location : The Moon


PostSubject: Re: How can the physical be all there is? Wed Dec 28, 2011 4:39 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
chise wrote:
Abstract wrote:
The physical is by virtue of what we call laws of nature, of science. But how can the answer to understanding reality be explained by physicality for that would require explaining the laws that allow and govern physicality by means of physicality.


Interesting. One such law that I see needing addressing would be: what holds the form of a physicality at a subatomic level, into a togetherness; what force, mysterious law holds the physical intact; the beloved atoms what is there link and connection to each other? how do they know to form a relationship? what is the intelligence of the atom?
Though not an answer, I have recently considered that love and gravity are the same thing...exactly.

things are similar because things see them as such; thus it is by perception that things are united just as it is by perception that things are parted... union through perception... is love?



___________
"There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates
"Nature herself has imprinted on the minds of all the idea of God." -Cicero
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain an idea without necessarily believing it." -Aristotle
"I have gained this by philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law." -Aristotle
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
chise



Posts : 9
Join date : 2011-12-09


PostSubject: Re: How can the physical be all there is? Thu Dec 29, 2011 10:20 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Abstract wrote:
Though not an answer, I have recently considered that love and gravity are the same thing...exactly.

things are similar because things see them as such; thus it is by perception that things are united just as it is by perception that things are parted... union through perception... is love?


Similar insights have walked into my brain: love was seen to be, in it's grandest state. The glue that fastens the universe from crumbling into nothingness. The main ingredient firmly holding stuff at an individual and universal scale in their material forms.


The perception side of it wasn't considered much til lately.

, in being humbled enough, to perceive the individual self, not as a separate, but a oneness with the whole. of life (and yet within that, an individual) , imagining existence being merely an act of perception, is conceivable... as self centered and ego tripping as it sounds Smile

chise wrote:

Interesting. One such law that I see needing addressing would be: what holds the form of a physicality at a subatomic level, into a togetherness; what force, mysterious law holds the physical intact; the beloved atoms what is there link and connection to each other? how do they know to form a relationship? what is the intelligence of the atom?
Though not an answer, I have recently considered that love


if this is so, if The force binding the atoms together and holding the levels of reality within the atom in their shelves, is a loving perception from an observer, that does give the observer a tone of power & responsbility eh it implies that everything only comes to existence when it is looked at? where man isn't nature is fallow? matter is changeable with a change of perception? why isn't and how is matter mutated at a glance?
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Abstract
Oracle
Oracle
avatar

Posts : 142
Join date : 2011-11-15
Age : 31
Location : The Moon


PostSubject: Re: How can the physical be all there is? Fri Dec 30, 2011 5:41 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
chise wrote:
Abstract wrote:
Though not an answer, I have recently considered that love and gravity are the same thing...exactly.

things are similar because things see them as such; thus it is by perception that things are united just as it is by perception that things are parted... union through perception... is love?


Similar insights have walked into my brain: love was seen to be, in it's grandest state. The glue that fastens the universe from crumbling into nothingness. The main ingredient firmly holding stuff at an individual and universal scale in their material forms.


The perception side of it wasn't considered much til lately.

, in being humbled enough, to perceive the individual self, not as a separate, but a oneness with the whole. of life (and yet within that, an individual) , imagining existence being merely an act of perception, is conceivable... as self centered and ego tripping as it sounds Smile

chise wrote:

Interesting. One such law that I see needing addressing would be: what holds the form of a physicality at a subatomic level, into a togetherness; what force, mysterious law holds the physical intact; the beloved atoms what is there link and connection to each other? how do they know to form a relationship? what is the intelligence of the atom?
Though not an answer, I have recently considered that love


if this is so, if The force binding the atoms together and holding the levels of reality within the atom in their shelves, is a loving perception from an observer, that does give the observer a tone of power & responsbility eh it implies that everything only comes to existence when it is looked at? where man isn't nature is fallow? matter is changeable with a change of perception? why isn't and how is matter mutated at a glance?
It would seem contradictory to say something comes to existence only when it is looked at because in order to be looked at it must already be an existing thing capable of being looked at...

The reason (following this philosophy) that I would say matter cannot be changed , evidently, by a change in perception... is that you are thinking of individual perception change as the changing factor... I would not necessitate a oneness exactly that perceives, it is just as well that all individuals do and yet that which 'is' is the result of the...agreement... or rather happened perception or general perception of all beings... perhaps it is like the perceived average, except it is universal as all seem to be subject to this perception...In other words nothing is going to change unless we all agree on it. (for example if we wanted a heaven state, we would all have to agree on what that state would be...)





___________
"There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates
"Nature herself has imprinted on the minds of all the idea of God." -Cicero
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain an idea without necessarily believing it." -Aristotle
"I have gained this by philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law." -Aristotle
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
chise



Posts : 9
Join date : 2011-12-09


PostSubject: Re: How can the physical be all there is? Fri Dec 30, 2011 6:47 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
It would seem contradictory to say something comes to existence only when it is looked at because in order to be looked at it must already be an existing thing capable of being looked at

This is the true, if 'looking or seeing' is limited to the action of the visual perceptive organ, the eye. "Looking or seeing" starts with a visual image, and an intent to look at thing; the thing is first seen in the mind. This mental picture itself can be seen as a 'coming into existence' can't it? (thought is the first principle of creation) this was more of the line of thinking I was going by



The reason (following this philosophy) that I would say matter cannot be changed , evidently, by a change in perception... is that you are thinking of individual perception change as the changing factor... I would not necessitate a oneness exactly that perceives, it is just as well that all individuals do and yet that which 'is' is the result of the...agreement... or rather happened perception or general perception of all beings... perhaps it is like the perceived average, except it is universal as all seem to be subject to this perception...In other words nothing is going to change unless we all agree on it. (for example if we wanted a heaven state, we would all have to agree on what that state would be...)


This is also true, change would be easier and quickly if more people focused their energies on whatever it is they wanted to change. It is easier to believe in something when everyone else does and easy to doubt in something when noone else believes it. The reason I consider this possibility is from an encounter I have had with someone who really showed a certain degree of a mastery of mind over matter. As stated earlier perhaps accessing the hidden realms, the energetic fields of atoms at a nuclei level (atomic bomb stuff) can bring home this potential. Will let ya know when this philosophizing becomes an, actual realized truth!! Smile
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Abstract
Oracle
Oracle
avatar

Posts : 142
Join date : 2011-11-15
Age : 31
Location : The Moon


PostSubject: Re: How can the physical be all there is? Fri Dec 30, 2011 8:56 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
chise wrote:
It would seem contradictory to say something comes to existence only when it is looked at because in order to be looked at it must already be an existing thing capable of being looked at

This is the true, if 'looking or seeing' is limited to the action of the visual perceptive organ, the eye. "Looking or seeing" starts with a visual image, and an intent to look at thing; the thing is first seen in the mind. This mental picture itself can be seen as a 'coming into existence' can't it? (thought is the first principle of creation) this was more of the line of thinking I was going by
Yet how is it that the percivers know of things such as to bring them into existence before having witnessed them, but that we already know all things? If so then our efforts to seek the truth by looking outside ourselves may be the least effective when(though truely in this case what is outside is a part of the one or the whole that we are) it would seem better to find the truth by looking into the self...

Quote :


The reason (following this philosophy) that I would say matter cannot be changed , evidently, by a change in perception... is that you are thinking of individual perception change as the changing factor... I would not necessitate a oneness exactly that perceives, it is just as well that all individuals do and yet that which 'is' is the result of the...agreement... or rather happened perception or general perception of all beings... perhaps it is like the perceived average, except it is universal as all seem to be subject to this perception...In other words nothing is going to change unless we all agree on it. (for example if we wanted a heaven state, we would all have to agree on what that state would be...)


This is also true, change would be easier and quickly if more people focused their energies on whatever it is they wanted to change. It is easier to believe in something when everyone else does and easy to doubt in something when no one else believes it. The reason I consider this possibility is from an encounter I have had with someone who really showed a certain degree of a mastery of mind over matter. As stated earlier perhaps accessing the hidden realms, the energetic fields of atoms at a nuclei level (atomic bomb stuff) can bring home this potential. Will let ya know when this philosophizing becomes an, actual realized truth!! Smile

And perhaps not only do others influence what is perceived as physical but also others and the will they might have to change things...



___________
"There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates
"Nature herself has imprinted on the minds of all the idea of God." -Cicero
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain an idea without necessarily believing it." -Aristotle
"I have gained this by philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law." -Aristotle
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
James S Saint
rational metaphysicist
rational metaphysicist


Posts : 244
Join date : 2011-12-26


PostSubject: Re: How can the physical be all there is? Fri Dec 30, 2011 10:19 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Hmm..

Doesn't this thread belong under the "Anti-Science" or perhaps "The Occult" or "Inter-subjective" forums? Neutral

The cause of quantizing/particlizing is known and provable. But it cannot be physically seen and thus Science cannot physically verify it. It is instead in incontrovertible result of the math/logic involved.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
chise



Posts : 9
Join date : 2011-12-09


PostSubject: Re: How can the physical be all there is? Mon Jan 02, 2012 5:27 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Abstract wrote:
chise wrote:

This is the true, if 'looking or seeing' is limited to the action of the visual perceptive organ, the eye. "Looking or seeing" starts with a visual image, and an intent to look at thing; the thing is first seen in the mind. This mental picture itself can be seen as a 'coming into existence' can't it? (thought is the first principle of creation) this was more of the line of thinking I was going by
Yet how is it that the percivers know of things such as to bring them into existence before having witnessed them, but that we already know all things? ...

Do we know all things? in other words is there a limit to what has come into existence? knowing or creating ideas seems limitless?
to what degree have we deliberately barricaded our ability to know and to create?


Abstract wrote:

If so then our efforts to seek the truth by looking outside ourselves may be the least effective when(though truely in this case what is outside is a part of the one or the whole that we are) it would seem better to find the truth by looking into the self

it would and is, unfortunately the road is treacherously paved with doubt and disbelief in self..: Perhaps, 'the pursuit' in truth. is a Journey to find our certitude in our ability to know and to create,.. any thing ?!


chise wrote:



This is also true, change would be easier and quickly if more people focused their energies on whatever it is they wanted to change. It is easier to believe in something when everyone else does and easy to doubt in something when no one else believes it. The reason I consider this possibility is from an encounter I have had with someone who really showed a certain degree of a mastery of mind over matter. As stated earlier perhaps accessing the hidden realms, the energetic fields of atoms at a nuclei level (atomic bomb stuff) can bring home this potential. Will let ya know when this philosophizing becomes an, actual realized truth!! Smile

And perhaps not only do others influence what is perceived as physical but also others and the will they might have to change things...


true, some do, others, inspire others by providing the ideal.. not the idol

Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Abstract
Oracle
Oracle
avatar

Posts : 142
Join date : 2011-11-15
Age : 31
Location : The Moon


PostSubject: Re: How can the physical be all there is? Mon Jan 02, 2012 5:53 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
James S Saint wrote:
Hmm..

Doesn't this thread belong under the "Anti-Science" or perhaps "The Occult" or "Inter-subjective" forums? Neutral

The cause of quantizing/particlizing is known and provable. But it cannot be physically seen and thus Science cannot physically verify it. It is instead in incontrovertible result of the math/logic involved.
How is this known, how is it proved... what is its cause if it was caused by things, and if we are only looking at one of the causes in the infinite streaming of beginning of the thing we are not actually finding the proof we are just becoming satisfied with one domino on the infinite line of understandings or thoughts that can occur in relation to the topic.



___________
"There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates
"Nature herself has imprinted on the minds of all the idea of God." -Cicero
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain an idea without necessarily believing it." -Aristotle
"I have gained this by philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law." -Aristotle
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Abstract
Oracle
Oracle
avatar

Posts : 142
Join date : 2011-11-15
Age : 31
Location : The Moon


PostSubject: Re: How can the physical be all there is? Mon Jan 02, 2012 5:59 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
chise wrote:
Abstract wrote:
chise wrote:

This is the true, if 'looking or seeing' is limited to the action of the visual perceptive organ, the eye. "Looking or seeing" starts with a visual image, and an intent to look at thing; the thing is first seen in the mind. This mental picture itself can be seen as a 'coming into existence' can't it? (thought is the first principle of creation) this was more of the line of thinking I was going by
Yet how is it that the percivers know of things such as to bring them into existence before having witnessed them, but that we already know all things? ...

Do we know all things? in other words is there a limit to what has come into existence? knowing or creating ideas seems limitless?
to what degree have we deliberately barricaded our ability to know and to create?
Perhaps it is only to what existent we recognize our abilities to be limited that we can be limited. And so it is best not to ask or think how we might be?

Quote :

Abstract wrote:

If so then our efforts to seek the truth by looking outside ourselves may be the least effective when(though truely in this case what is outside is a part of the one or the whole that we are) it would seem better to find the truth by looking into the self

it would and is, unfortunately the road is treacherously paved with doubt and disbelief in self..: Perhaps, 'the pursuit' in truth. is a Journey to find our certitude in our ability to know and to create,.. any thing ?!
Perhaps it is truly just a journey to aid the growth of comfort with limitless uncertainty...





___________
"There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates
"Nature herself has imprinted on the minds of all the idea of God." -Cicero
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain an idea without necessarily believing it." -Aristotle
"I have gained this by philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law." -Aristotle
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
chise



Posts : 9
Join date : 2011-12-09


PostSubject: Re: How can the physical be all there is? Mon Jan 02, 2012 7:17 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Abstract wrote:
Perhaps it is only to what existent we recognize our abilities to be limited that we can be limited. And so it is best not to ask or think how we might be?



Smile Yes! but see asking and thinking in this case... would be a response from an experience failing to yeild a desired outcome.. reflection encourages a better approach in the future. There would be no questions if success was/is guaranteed each time. We are already in the hole, if we had known that we could walk on air we wouldn't have fallen into the ditch. So here we are, climbing out, with the virtue, which is wisdom, of our experiences. (The hole is the attachment to the past.. past experiences and indeed the extent that we recognize their existence)..


How do we know what being unlimited is without knowing limitation?


fyi- the motive behind the question in my previous post was especially for contemplative purposes on the readers part .. but thanks for the response
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Parodites
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 757
Join date : 2011-12-11


PostSubject: Re: How can the physical be all there is? Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:36 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Abstract wrote:
Capable wrote:
Abstract wrote:
The physical is by virtue of what we call laws of nature, of science. But how can the answer to understanding reality be explained by physicality for that would require explaining the laws that allow and govern physicality by means of physicality.

I tend to think of physicality as a merely sufficient relatability between forms (of energy, or whatever). Forms attain to certain degrees of scope, influencing power and "force" potential (i.e. to act as a resistance to/against other forces). The extent to which this "degree of scope..." overlaps from one form/entity to another would be the extent that each entity "perceives" (experiences, is affected by) the other as "physical", i.e. as solid or substantial.

Thus I tend to think that we already have a means of explaining the laws of nature in a way that appeals to a basic, rational understanding of physicality. In other words I see no problem here.
Perhaps I shouldn't have related this only to physicality... perhaps what I am asking is how can we explain the laws without referencing other laws, and as such how can we explain all laws...



Originally, what is called the universe was a unified force undifferentiated by time or by space. What we call creation is actually the decomposition and disintegration of ousia, to speak Greek, of physical reality. When we finally manage to reconstruct in our little simian brains a mathematical and theoretical conception of such a unified force (ie. unified field theory) then we will understand all physicality in only one "law" as you call it, one formulation.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Parodites
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 757
Join date : 2011-12-11


PostSubject: Re: How can the physical be all there is? Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:39 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
chise wrote:
One such law that I see needing addressing would be: what holds the form of a physicality at a subatomic level, into a togetherness; what force, mysterious law holds the physical intact; the beloved atoms what is there link and connection to each other? how do they know to form a relationship? what is the intelligence of the atom?





.... The fundamental interactions. You should have learned that in high school, not to be an ass, though it is in my nature.



Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Parodites
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 757
Join date : 2011-12-11


PostSubject: Re: How can the physical be all there is? Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:46 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Just take away your preconceptions as a living thing and look at it for a moment. Blind, space-less, timeless, power; infinitely dense and hot. It existed forever, and was "nowhere" for it took up no space. Suddenly it ruptures, the unified force shattering and decomposing into our universe. Particles and anti-particles sparred for awhile, spontaneously generated by the conversion and regression of energy into matter, matter into energy. Temperatures eventually cooled enough for the first atoms to form. Stars formed, burning this primordial "stuff." In their burning, the stars produced more complex atomic structures, the elements needed to build planets and lifeforms. Then we show up on earth. That is a very small summary of the history of our universe. A wonder, granted, from the perspective of a living thing. From any other perspective, however...
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
James S Saint
rational metaphysicist
rational metaphysicist


Posts : 244
Join date : 2011-12-26


PostSubject: Re: How can the physical be all there is? Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:51 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
There is what changes and what doesn't.
The physical universe is what changes..
.. and doesn't.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Parodites
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 757
Join date : 2011-12-11


PostSubject: Re: How can the physical be all there is? Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:13 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
It also gets on my nerves sometimes.



I guess the universe is a pretty cool guy though. Eh. Makes black holes and doesn't afraid of anything.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Arcturus Descending
arrow
arrow
avatar

Posts : 293
Join date : 2011-12-07
Location : Hovering amidst a battle of Wills


PostSubject: Re: How can the physical be all there is? Fri Feb 24, 2012 5:56 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster


Abstract...

Quote :
... I have recently considered that love and gravity are the same thing...exactly.
We might say that these words correspond to each other. They are similar in that love may keep one 'grounded' but at the same time love is capable of allowing us to soar. So you might also say that love and wings are similar.

In another respect, love may make us quite grave. Evil or Very Mad


Quote :
things are similar because things see them as such; thus it is by perception that things are united ?
When we use 'things' as metaphors to assign meaning and interpretation.

Quote :
just as it is by perception that things are parted... union through perception... is love

This is why it is important to examine/re-examine our perceptions. They are not necessarily based in truth but based on how we sensate and interpret the moment.

Union through perception may also lead to altered truth...which might eradicate the love which was once seen.



___________
Each of our lives is a part of the lengthy process of the universe gradually waking up and becoming aware of itself.


Philosophy is the childhood of the intellect, and a culture that tries to skip it will never grow up."


"If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped."

Thomas Nagel
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Abstract
Oracle
Oracle
avatar

Posts : 142
Join date : 2011-11-15
Age : 31
Location : The Moon


PostSubject: Re: How can the physical be all there is? Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:36 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I'll have to respond later when i'm not feeling so mind numb...



___________
"There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates
"Nature herself has imprinted on the minds of all the idea of God." -Cicero
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain an idea without necessarily believing it." -Aristotle
"I have gained this by philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law." -Aristotle
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
RIW

avatar

Posts : 1
Join date : 2012-09-22
Location : RI USA


PostSubject: Re: How can the physical be all there is? Sat Sep 22, 2012 3:05 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Before our time began the infinite became self aware and it observed all for it was all. With love it created a perfect order of single point mass particles and then releases it so the mass particles could all coming by and with their own preference’s of movement. The Infinite made this possible knowing that it would be finite but that it would also bring forth that which can and would observer. At the same time the universe falls in to disorder it also moves to higher levels of connection and complexity. Choice is necessary for evolution. Choice is necessary for all observers to evolve. Love is a creating force hate is a destroying force. Do not try and put god in your back pocket. The Infinite will not fit in there instead put love in your top front pocket near your hart, and hate in your back pocket out of sight. Connecting to that which is good is connecting to the living universe. Yes this is a living universe when preferences of movement and an inclination to connect in ways of ever high complexity are given to mass things evolve. The Infinite has made the laws and set the physical values of our universe for life to exist. All life is an observer of existents. God does not move rocks. God is the infinite. God is the understanding of the collective infinite. For the void connects all things to the Infinite.
Image
For behold, all acts of love and pleasure are my rituals
User avatar
Jakob
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 6100
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:23 pm
Location: look at my suit

Re: The Philosophers

Postby Jakob » Mon Nov 26, 2018 6:40 pm

Abstract
Oracle
Oracle
avatar

Posts : 142
Join date : 2011-11-15
Age : 31
Location : The Moon


PostSubject: Effectance Mon Nov 19, 2012 2:45 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I'm perplexed by a problem. Does everything effect everything to some degree? Does say a planet in a galaxy we have yet discovered have some effect on us hear on earth, no matter how small? Basically is the field of effectance of objects infinite?

If so it would seem that what we consider finite objects are then infinite in nature.
But further this can imply things about the nature of actions, in areas of consideration like the idea of sin. Is a sin infinite? If so, if its effect extends outwards in the present infinitely and/or continually ways effect in the future then it is not so illogical for there to be an infinite karmic or otherwise punishment for a sin. Unless you then count that a good action does the same then your faced with waying two infinites against each other which leaves the resultant polarity of action indeterminate.



___________
"There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates
"Nature herself has imprinted on the minds of all the idea of God." -Cicero
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain an idea without necessarily believing it." -Aristotle
"I have gained this by philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law." -Aristotle
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6665
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: Effectance Tue Nov 20, 2012 4:06 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Abstract wrote:
I'm perplexed by a problem. Does everything effect everything to some degree? Does say a planet in a galaxy we have yet discovered have some effect on us hear on earth, no matter how small? Basically is the field of effectance of objects infinite?
I'm no specialist on this but I'd say that this is probhably not the case. For one, a solar system may be sucked into a black hole, and when it does it is nof no consequence what curve some tennisball had on some planet, or at what angle some plane crashed into a mountain.
Also I was thinking that a lot can happen within gravitational systems that does not disturb the balance of that system and thus does not project it's effect outward from the system.

Quote :
If so it would seem that what we consider finite objects are then infinite in nature.
But further this can imply things about the nature of actions, in areas of consideration like the idea of sin. Is a sin infinite? If so, if its effect extends outwards in the present infinitely and/or continually ways effect in the future then it is not so illogical for there to be an infinite karmic or otherwise punishment for a sin. Unless you then count that a good action does the same then your faced with waying two infinites against each other which leaves the resultant polarity of action indeterminate.
If there was indeed infinite effectance, then still it is very possible, and on Earth very often clearly the case, that an act considered in one realm as negative would be received as positive in another. "Sin" is a value judgment, and this certianly is not universal, but purely local, contextual.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6665
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: Effectance Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:40 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
The key to open any kind of space-time power is to include as much contradictory logi into one logos as your energy can muster. Then consolidate in ritual (instances of exalted, eternal life) and create a symbolic order. Then obey that order.




Message
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6665
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Before the Big Bang Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:34 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Relations are a priori dual, triple, => , not merely after the fact of measuring them. The relations we measure in physics and chemistry do not only exist in terms of force.
There is also another aspect, and this is unmeasurable in exact terms, as it involves not just the present state but its entire history and future of affect in every possible universe in which it could exist.

Even the very idea of a particle is cleaved. There are always two ways of contemplating the object. For example:

- The minimal and maximal requirements for its existence, its ‘essence’, raw (unmeasured) content. ⇔ Its maximal power to affect (a quantity of force).

- The possible ways in which it can affect and be affected (a number of qualities in various quantities). ⇔ Its measurable effect. (its measurable activity at a given moment).

These cross relate into two four further dualities, of which two are simple and two quite a bit less so. More on these later. In the above, the second part of each pair is expressed in terms of something outside of itself. The first part expresses all that it can possibly be, i.e. all possible contexts for it to exist in. The second is a process of valuing and counter valuing, the second part is translatable in common sensical speak only via such words as (value-) standard and consistency.

In the case of the latter it is very difficult to distinguis action from passive existing. Something “just exists” only to the measure that it is active. Even if this activity may be wholly enforced by the ambient history, it does act itself in a particular way that can only be affected by the ambient indirectly. Thus it is an integer being, essentially independent, yet requiring for this independence something to be independent from.

And such arrays of standards arrange themselves alongside those standards to which they may favorably compare. I.e. each thing seeks (gradually falls into) the context in which the most is required of its essential potential.

In human lore this is called Good versus Evil, but it is the inevitable form of time, the progression of increasing density on the one hand, and slowing relative time on the other.

The end scenario is one of complete stability and zero progression of time. Time would then ‘freeze’, undoubtably for it to burst open in a new Big Bang (or Crash - as in a pulverizing sheet of glass).



Pezer
builder
builder
avatar

Posts : 2190
Join date : 2011-11-15
Location : deep caverns in caves


PostSubject: God is Dead: Scientific Fact Thu Aug 08, 2013 4:13 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
"Evolutionists" who call for a return to the bestial logic of our tried-and-true evolutionary processes don't get the point. An evolutionist claims that the bestial logic of our tried and true evolutionary processes are things which have always been and continue to be right at the core of our existence. The evolutionist uses consciousness to fabricate an image of its consciousness which he then recognizes even before the image. Evolutionism is not primitivism because everything is already primitive, evolutionism is a full circle from feeling to knowing to know-feeling and feel-knowing

The importance of the death of God is what? That all we have is this, and ourselves. Our worship of God produced such intricate and sophisticated work, one wonders what similar sentiments could produce when attached to a vision of reality which is corroborated by its very object and which object is very thirsty for power, also better equiped than when this ever was dreamed of.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6665
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: God is Dead: Scientific Fact Thu Aug 08, 2013 10:05 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
The term "God" remains vague. Who is dead? Is it Zeus? No way, he lives in Jupiter and the thunderstorms that free my heart. Is it Baal? Sure, he could be dead-ish, no one worships him. Is it Yahweh? Well - he's alive and kicking in the hearts of not only Jews, but all Western occultists. Who is dead is Jesus and his dad. That's what's significant -- the God of meekness of turning the other cheek, he's dead. At least - is he? Is not Jesus only a reference to a solstice, and Mary to the constellation Virgo?

In any case, you are right in your conclusions.

"Our worship of God produced such intricate and sophisticated work, one wonders what similar sentiments could produce when attached to a vision of reality which is corroborated by its very object and which object is very thirsty for power, also better equiped than when this ever was dreamed of."

God allowed man an uncanny thirst for power. Conviction was the means to this will. Our "problem" here is to get motivated to that same level. With value ontology a seed was planted. I felt at that time the power to create new Gods. We had a talk about that, then. The first enthusiasm (-- from en "in" (see en- (2)) + theos "god" --) paid off, and here we are.

"God is dead" is not enough of a statement. God is a ..... fill in the blanks -
man will always require something higher than his present state to orient on. It can be his future self, it can be a future descendancy (the Uebermensch) but it needs to be something ahead of him. Or am I wrong?



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Pezer
builder
builder
avatar

Posts : 2190
Join date : 2011-11-15
Location : deep caverns in caves


PostSubject: Re: God is Dead: Scientific Fact Thu Aug 08, 2013 4:45 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
The problem with God is precisely those general terms. God can be anything, it is a word that simply conjures the hole in the moment which the company has decided to explore no further. A scientist must chase these holes down, not give them names and worship them. I, as you know, give the exception to Chaos, for reasons that can become clear with some thought.

This other God, this Yehova, God of Abraham, perhaps God of the Egyptians, or some Egyptians, this is the curse behind Iesus and not the other way around. Jesus was a hippy who got taken advantage of by over-zealous rabbies with that good ol' God in their hearts and revenge in their minds.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5478
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: God is Dead: Scientific Fact Fri Aug 09, 2013 1:29 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
None of us can see tomorrow. Our words are still yesterday's languages. Who has the power to think the pure un-thought, the strangest derivation in the moment? We must learn to follow even the tiniest clues, even the ones that aren't there yet.

Let us learn to speak like the wind. Let us learn to seek like the wind.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6665
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: God is Dead: Scientific Fact Fri Aug 09, 2013 5:34 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Pezer wrote:
The problem with God is precisely those general terms. God can be anything, it is a word that simply conjures the hole in the moment which the company has decided to explore no further. A scientist must chase these holes down, not give them names and worship them. I, as you know, give the exception to Chaos, for reasons that can become clear with some thought.

This other God, this Yehova, God of Abraham, perhaps God of the Egyptians, or some Egyptians, this is the curse behind Iesus and not the other way around. Jesus was a hippy who got taken advantage of by over-zealous rabbies with that good ol' God in their hearts and revenge in their minds.
That's crazy. In the whole world, there is no group that has resisted the idea of the "Jewish" Son of God with such baffled repulsion as the rabbi's.
God has no one Son. His son is Beauty itself, the theatre of experience.

The tree of life (the glyph of which YHVH is an outtake and to the front of which 'Iesu' (the guy didn't really exist) was modeled) is the scientific model pur sang. Newton was a kabalist and Einstein definitely read a lot of it.

But also my own thoughts about value-relativity merged after many years of meditation on the sephirotic combinations of the 'bare (meaningless) logics' that can reasonably be said to sustain the human mind as representing reality. For example: Force/Form, Possibility/Decision Overflowing/Limiting-standardizing -- or Force/Overflowing, Overflowing/Possibility, Form/Limiting-standardizing, Limiting-standardizing/Decision - and then such contrasts as Overflowing/Decision and Possibility/Limiting-standardizing at the midst of which is the theatre of experience, the "Self", which does not exist except through such relations.

Capable wrote:
None of us can see tomorrow. Our words are still yesterday's languages. Who has the power to think the pure un-thought, the strangest derivation in the moment? We must learn to follow even the tiniest clues, even the ones that aren't there yet.
Quote :
Let us learn to speak like the wind. Let us learn to seek like the wind.
I like this.
Frames, running colors, streaks - caves, black bear with a red tongue and white teeth, snarling. A blue sky, a bald predator lurks, vast wings, hanging still. A volcano-top in the distance. Ants, colonies. Zoom in: Marches across the desert. A man with a female crotch and an electrifying voice.

The pyramids - I step on one of them and hurt my foot. My blood gushes down, the red birth of the Nile. The river feeds the barren Earth. A civilization of ants arises. Ant-history lives forth in ant-eternity. Ants call other ants Gods. In the meantime, the Sun slowly sets and I perceive my tent. I had already put it up. I forgot. A rabbits-stew, a wife in grey, a telescope.

Chaos and the wind are friends, we do not essentially disagree.

The Tree of Life is no limiter, it's to use freely and discard freely, it is a means to escape language and human context without losing control of logic. There are other means - but this one is particularly powerful, and has often been near and sometimes at the very core of western scientific progress.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6665
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: God is Dead: Scientific Fact Fri Aug 09, 2013 5:50 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Quote :
The problem with God is precisely those general terms. God can be anything, it is a word that simply conjures the hole in the moment which the company has decided to explore no further. A scientist must chase these holes down, not give them names and worship them. I, as you know, give the exception to Chaos, for reasons that can become clear with some thought.
That is not true. God-systems are far more complex and deliberate than that. Consider the yoga-science as someone like sri Yukteshwar developed, or these standard kabalistic attributions:

[[[[Sephirah Divine name Archangelic name Choir or Host of Angels Mundane Chakra Summary

1. Kether (Crown) Eheieh ('I am', 'I will be', 'I Become' or 'I am that I am') Metatron Chayoth ha-Qadesh ("Holy living Creatures") aka Seraphim Primum Mobile /First Swirlings (Neptune) The richest and most supreme source of energy

2. Chokmah (Wisdom) Jehovah / Yah ("The Lord") Raziel Auphanim ("Wheels") aka Kerubim Zodiac (Uranus) Uncompensated, boundless energy, primordial maleness.

3. Binah (Understanding) Jehovah Elohim ("The Lord God" or "Lord of Gods") Tzaphkiel Aralim ("Strong and Mighty") aka Thrones Saturn The archetypical womb, the female potency of the universe

4. Chesed (Mercy) El ("God - The Mighty One") Tzadqiel Chashmalim ("Brilliant Ones") aka Dominions or dominations (Kyriotetes) Jupiter The archetypical ideas which are the basis of our manifested universe

5. Geburah (Strength) Elohim Gebor ("God of Battles" or "God Almighty") Kamael Seraphim ("Fiery Serpents" or "Flaming Ones") aka Order of Powers (Exusiai) Mars The power to carry out cosmic law, thereby enabling cosmic justice

6. Tiphareth (Beauty) Jehovah Eloah Va Daath ("God Made Manifest in the Sphere of Mind" or "Lord God of all Knowledge"). Raphael Malachim ("Kings") aka Virtues, angels and rulers (Dynameis) Sun The central Sephiroth is a stage of balance, beauty and harmony.

7. Netzach (Victory) Jehovah Tzabaoth ("Lord of Hosts") Haniel Elohim ("Gods") aka Principalities (Archai) Venus The balance and mutual fruitation between the individual and the collective

8. Hod (Glory) Elohim Tzabaoth ("God of Hosts") Michael Beni Elohim ("Sons of God") aka Archangels Mercury The stage of concentration where energy is controlled and molded into forms

9. Yesod (Foundation) Shaddai El Chai ("Almighty Living God" or "Almighty God of Life") Gabriel Kerubim ("Strong Ones") aka Angels Moon The magical link between mind and matter, a force for good and evil

10. Malkuth (Kingdom) Adonai Malekh ("The Lord who is King") or Adonai ha-Aretz ("Lord of the Earth") Sandalphon Ashim ("Souls of Fire") aka Blessed Souls / Souls made perfect Earth (Pluto) The final manifestation, where things exist, happen and are sensed, right now ]]]]

"I am a sorcerer. Everything I see I create. I have created, and will continue to create my own world" - Morten Haas


I recommend trying to pronounce these names with full-breath resonance and observe the sonsequences. Before you judge it as arbitrary, I mean.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Pezer
builder
builder
avatar

Posts : 2190
Join date : 2011-11-15
Location : deep caverns in caves


PostSubject: Re: God is Dead: Scientific Fact Fri Aug 09, 2013 9:26 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Wisdom is always cool, but what props up this wisdom? The Abrahamic wisdom? It is the zealousness of the rabbis. That the ones who took advantage of Jesus were detestable even by other rabbi's standards doesn't mean they weren't earnestly zealous. This is why all occult Jewish knowledge tends to amount to monotonic temple prayer sessions and some elevated grip over the world, but nothing to rock anybody's pants. Even though I can obviously recognize that the wisdom, or science, is pretty good. It is a fine smell, but very earthy, the sound of the language has very little of jagged and lightning. This is not against it in any ethical or moralistic level, simply a note on taste, on effectual smell.

All those terms are, of course, quite familiar to my ears. It reminds me of the times in religious study as a child when the stories seemed to shine through some value of its own, some secret deivinity. I suppose all the guilt is piled on top of that. But this is my point: it is at the same time powerful, maleable and secretive. Fine material for weak frames, unhelpful in this secretivness for science.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Pezer
builder
builder
avatar

Posts : 2190
Join date : 2011-11-15
Location : deep caverns in caves


PostSubject: Re: God is Dead: Scientific Fact Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:25 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Let's take biodynamic agriculture as an example. The originating mind behind it placed so much of the importance of his newly framed field of study on a spirituality of the cosmos, he closed opportunities for future generations to use the term for its basic scientific tenets and their ability to include things unpredictable, such as microscopic reactions comparable to the drug experience, and that's just from my own bias, there are many other biases that go uninvited to this wonderful field because there is an unknowability there which is attributed to something other than chaos; that is, a human outside of the human, a plan outside of the planners. If this plan can precede us, why create? Science is creation, the disacknowledgement of all non-human plans and the ultimate placer of responsibility on man, the heaviest crown for the mightiest sceptre.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6665
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: God is Dead: Scientific Fact Fri Aug 09, 2013 12:02 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
But what is man?
You could not use a car if you did not know about the pedals, the wheel and the ignition.
Kabalah draws so much more energy and power out of man than the regular superexited state, that it is dangerous. It's basically rocketscience. No one masters this system. Those that come close burn up in eternal glory.

Seriously man I can't take you seriously here until you've astrally walked a few of these paths.

http://www.qabalah.dk/paths.html

you'll need this:

http://www.qabalah.dk/sephiroth.html


These paths, I walk about 1 a year, are by far the most vivid creative experiences I've had, and they redefined my approach to memory - it's now completely physiological. This is also a great danger, There's a point of no return somewhere along the tree. And once you've crossed that, you have to ascend to 'divine madness', and so it within the ethics your memory can sustain.

it's like painting with a gun to your head.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6665
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: God is Dead: Scientific Fact Fri Aug 09, 2013 12:08 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
It all sounds very boring. But it isn't if you stand before the bridge you are about to build. This "God" that is constantly mentioned is merely the galactic center, or that black hole around which the nearby galaxies revolve - it's a specific target, a source of real energy, valuing, from which tautologically the measures and powerrelations of our scientific world derive.

The celestial entities are real. Their influence is scientifically very well identifiable. But as with all technology, this requires an Uranian approach. Where is your Uranus? How is it placed? Tell me what aspects it makes.

http://www.astrotheme.fr/theme_astral_e ... u_ciel.php



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6665
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: God is Dead: Scientific Fact Fri Aug 09, 2013 12:32 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster



8:50 - He took Lambda from the Tree of Life - "Lamed" - but he was too simple about it. The constant also involves the other path on the expansion-side of the tree.

In any case, now you know why he said

"The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."
Image
For behold, all acts of love and pleasure are my rituals
User avatar
Jakob
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 6100
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:23 pm
Location: look at my suit

Re: The Philosophers

Postby Jakob » Mon Nov 26, 2018 6:42 pm

Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6665
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Radical idea of multiple histories Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:20 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Once again, if we take value ontology to the extreme and set value as prior to any formation of whatever affectance as literally as possible, then causation is free from itself.

Imagine this: is it perhaps possible that our value systems do not only dictate the future we create, but also the past from which we came?

What about this: Next to an origin of man from Ape, there is an origin of man via Atlantis, Lemuria, Hyperboria to beings like Wainamoinen. The history of the organism then depends on the substance which the soul takes on - in terms of which science of the body the subject values itself presently.

I know this is probably not the case. But it is now thinkable and illuminates at least that our memory, individual and collective, is greatly determined by the language we use to propel our essence back through time to arrive at a concept of an originating.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Pezer
builder
builder
avatar

Posts : 2190
Join date : 2011-11-15
Location : deep caverns in caves


PostSubject: Re: Radical idea of multiple histories Sat Aug 31, 2013 1:49 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
No, I think it is true. It is the function of the difference between those who cannot do science together. One idea that permits wide-reaching science with difference-valuing at its core is the theory that we can create secondary and tertiary derivations from the vastly wide range of experience in the substance that makes science to alchemically make common overlapping sciences.





Message
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6665
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Photon Relativity Paradox Fri Oct 11, 2013 2:49 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
This is entirely hypothetical, as it can not be recreated as an experiment.
And thus, keep in mind that paradox means apparent contradiction.

Say that two photons are rushing toward each other from opposite directions.
And coupled with each photon is a perspective.

With what speed does the perspective of either of the two photons perceive the other photon approaching?

How does that correlate with the fact that, from an observer neutral to both photons (exactly in the middle), the photons are closing the distance between each other at twice the speed of light?



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
James S Saint
rational metaphysicist
rational metaphysicist


Posts : 244
Join date : 2011-12-26


PostSubject: Re: Photon Relativity Paradox Fri Oct 11, 2013 9:58 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fixed Cross wrote:
This is entirely hypothetical, as it can not be recreated as an experiment.
And thus, keep in mind that paradox means apparent contradiction.

Say that two photons are rushing toward each other from opposite directions.
And coupled with each photon is a perspective.

With what speed does the perspective of either of the two photons perceive the other photon approaching?

How does that correlate with the fact that, from an observer neutral to both photons (exactly in the middle), the photons are closing the distance between each other at twice the speed of light?
You might want to be careful pressing that issue. You can get banned off of most science sites if you argue the case.

Their response is one of two things;
A) Faith for those just wise enough to go along in order to get along.
B) Obfuscation for those too insistent upon logic and reasoning (warning: this comes with "pestilence"; gadflies, harpies, and locusts)

Many years ago when I asked that same question, they couldn't answer it without obfuscation. They actually have a seemingly valid answer to give, but they (physicists) don't typically realize it. And their answer isn't entirely valid, but is good enough for most heretics.

What you have proposed actually involves 3 perspectives, not merely 2. You are the picture frame and that is one perspective because everything else is moving relative to that frame. Then you have each of the moving objects because they are moving relative to each other as well as to you.

So what happens in common relativity theory is the realization that any time something is moving toward something else at c, that something else must necessarily be without depth, flat. As a photon approaches Earth, from the photon's perspective, the Earth is a flat disk.

What that means is that the right most light speed object approaching you would measure no distance between you and the left most object. It would consider you and the left most object to be in the same location.

That perspective can lead to yet another paradox that they also can't answer because it seems there are concerns in mathematics that they are not taught. I could both propose such a paradox and also answer it with proper math, but they apparently cannot.

That situation leads to me having to not get into that additional paradox because such would lead to its answer which would end up merely helping to disguise the fallacy of an incoherent theory, "assisting the devil to maintain his church".

So my advice is to simply accept that no distance would be perceived by either object between you and the other object and leave it at that.

They are at war. So choose your side;
A) one of the winning sides
B) one of the losing sides
C) outside
D) inside-out; the tricky method of being inside, yet out.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5478
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: Photon Relativity Paradox Sat Oct 12, 2013 12:40 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I can look at this situation one of two ways. First, it seems possible that light has no perspective at all, that being without mass or structure, basically a non-self-value that is a pure "reflection" of the mathematical laws of nature/reality itself, a sufficient-to-itself quantity, a photon would not be aware of anything. Saying that a photon perceives or experiences therefore makes no sense. So two photons traveling relative to each other don't experience or even constitute reference-frames at all. This seems to fit with c being constant, that it's unaffected by other stuff going on-- either a photon exists and is at c, or it does not exist (has been absorbed into an atomic system). This also seems consistent with the fact that photons seem to slow down in mediums; mass creating "gravity" adds more "stuff" as distance through which the photon must pass, or be refracted/bounce around, therefore appearing to us to "slow down".

Or, you could take the perspective that the distance between two photons is a measurement of information and had no actual substantial "existence". We know from entanglement that "information" can "travel" instantaneously (I.e. faster than c), so if you think of the distance between two photons traveling toward or away from each other as changing at a rate of 2c this is not problematic because nothing is "actually" moving faster than c, rather it's an issue of information without substance or force, the distance between the photons can increase or decrease at any rate regardless of c as the limit of velocity because the FACT of the distance between two photons is not a velocity or a "thing" at all.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6665
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: Photon Relativity Paradox Sat Oct 12, 2013 11:25 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
The speed of light encapsulates each reference frame.
It's like a membrane beyond which nothing within that frame shall pass.

From the reference frame of object A, the closer object B comes to light speed, the closer it comes to absolute gravity. If it would attain this, the two objects would not be able to move away from each other any longer.

Thus the nature of c as a limit holds together everything by gravity. It forces all mass which is of influence to other mass to forever remain of influence to it - it binds together all already-bound reference frames.

It is an ontological veil between this world and something which is only possible in terms that are impossible here. Possibly that is simply "nothing", but I don't think that's the necessary conclusion.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
James S Saint
rational metaphysicist
rational metaphysicist


Posts : 244
Join date : 2011-12-26


PostSubject: Re: Photon Relativity Paradox Sat Oct 12, 2013 3:00 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Realize that an "observer photon" would experience it birth at the source and instantly smack into its destination no matter at what extreme distance that destination is or how long you thought it would take for it to get there.

Time doesn't exist for the observer photon. His "time dilation" is zero. An infinite distance, from his perspective, is traversed in zero time. And that is why he cannot perceive distance at all. So nothing can be "coming toward him" because space has no dimensions.

Another tiny little devil in the theory. Cool
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6665
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: Photon Relativity Paradox Sat Oct 12, 2013 3:24 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Let's see - the change elapsing within the photon are infinitely slow compared to the change elapsing in the physical reference frame in which it has its cause and effect.

And 2 times zero is zero, yes, I think that solves it.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
James S Saint
rational metaphysicist
rational metaphysicist


Posts : 244
Join date : 2011-12-26


PostSubject: Re: Photon Relativity Paradox Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:58 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fixed Cross wrote:
Let's see - the change elapsing within the photon are infinitely slow compared to the change elapsing in the physical reference frame in which it has its cause and effect.

And 2 times zero is zero, yes, I think that solves it.
We can discuss the RM answer to all of this in private or over at ILP where I don't have to wait so long for every button press. I can literally make 10 new posts there for every simple spelling edit correction here.

It involves a bit of math, but nothing you can't handle. I don't typically use their conventional math and physics symbols for a variety of reasons (I don't even know most of them anymore), so I explain what I use. The math is really merely for detailed accuracy, seldom for conceptual understanding (and when they try it for that is when they get themselves all screwed up. They need to leave metaphysics to the pros).

The bottom line is that there is an indisputable (definitionally locked) propagation rate that provably cannot ever change. That rate constitutes an "ironclad" standard from which relative measurements can be calibrated. It forms a standard for "absolute time".

The trick is then to form a device that compares that absolute immutable standard to local changes. I haven't thought about all of that for years. It seems that it involved a tetrahedron arrangement with which to read and compare a change rate in all dimensions. Simple math then allows you to know, due to the differences, what speed you must be moving, and without measuring against anything else around, and then compensate your time clock based upon that speed. If I remember right (maybe not) the gravitational influence gets automatically compensated. I'll have to figure all of that out again (usual for me.. I forget more than I remember these days).

Something good about RM is that there can never be any paradoxes (except to those who misunderstood something).
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Imafungi
bowstring
bowstring


Posts : 48
Join date : 2014-01-22


PostSubject: Re: Photon Relativity Paradox Wed Jan 22, 2014 4:35 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fixed Cross wrote:
This is entirely hypothetical, as it can not be recreated as an experiment.
And thus, keep in mind that paradox means apparent contradiction.

Say that two photons are rushing toward each other from opposite directions.
And coupled with each photon is a perspective.

With what speed does the perspective of either of the two photons perceive the other photon approaching?

How does that correlate with the fact that, from an observer neutral to both photons (exactly in the middle), the photons are closing the distance between each other at twice the speed of light?

The second part of your question; it doesnt matter that they are closing in to each other twice the speed of light, it still is true that the photons themselves are traveling the speed of light. If 2 cars were traveling 50 mph towards them, just because they are enclosing twice the speed of those cars doesnt mean the cars are traveling more then 50 mph.

First part of your question; I think is the same answer. Though the real answer may be they would never be able to perceive one another ( because perception is based off of the nature of light/photons), so they would need light to reflect off of them, which it cant, and then travel back to them, and by then they would already have collided.
Image
For behold, all acts of love and pleasure are my rituals
User avatar
Jakob
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 6100
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:23 pm
Location: look at my suit

Re: The Philosophers

Postby Jakob » Mon Nov 26, 2018 6:43 pm

Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6665
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: attempt at a scientific definition of value Sun Apr 08, 2012 2:21 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
The concept value within value ontology refers to that which constitutes the momentum of the entity's self-sustaining through time. Value is incorporated in the particle as force that effectively counters, or harnesses against entropy. A particles self-valuing is the structure-in-time (path, circuitry) of its substance (energy, force, power to effect) in which other substance (energy, force, power to effect) is incorporated as increasing momentum of this structure-in-time. This structure in time is a constant in as far as it apprehends itself in terms of its own momentum, and these terms are its "values". Its momentum is its "self-valuing", the standard to its values. It persists in as far as it apprehends itself as necessary to itself, thereby necessary to its values.

As soon as it apprehends values separately from its own necessity to itself (self-valuing), it begins to disintegrate.

Value is directly translated into, or integrated as, momentum of the circular path of power to effect (thereby to empower) itself.

This power to effect and re-cause itself amounts also in power to cause change outside of itself.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Imafungi
bowstring
bowstring


Posts : 48
Join date : 2014-01-22


PostSubject: Re: attempt at a scientific definition of value Wed Jan 22, 2014 6:12 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I dont think value is absolute, meaning beyond human, and a concrete ethereal hierarchy of unchangeable values. I think the closest absolute objective function of value is life itself. The healthy and stable functioning of a life that is the highest human value. The exceptions are of course things like, when a human who commits suicide could be said to have valued death (perhaps they would have valued life more if not for certain things in their environment that beyond their control became to much). The saying 'one mans trash is another mans treasure' comes to mind when thinking of the nature of value. One man may value porn and sex while another values abstinence. One may value alcohol while another does not. One may value experimenting with pain as a form of pleasure, one may value avoiding pain at all costs. So is your whole thing attempting to quantize and categorize thus creating the absolute objective mapping of human value systems, and what they lead to, what they truly provide, how the value of what they provide can be quantized? So to be able to say 'this person is objectively wrong for valuing this or my values are more valuable then yours'? A main objective (whether they like it or not or would like to admit it or not) shared value of humans is money. This is how humans ensure their value of life, which I believe is the most valuable thing, so it is quite intuitive and obvious that money, the means in which that is accomplished is the most valuable thing. This leads to a very superficial discovery, in a sense discrediting intellectuality and suggesting ignorance is bliss, as long as you have money to provide your essentials and a healthy body there is nothing more you can truly hope for, or those are of the highest values, everything else that you may desire or do is just a form of entertainment, novelty, to see what we can see and do what we can do, exploring potentials in physicality and/or thought.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6665
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: attempt at a scientific definition of value Wed Jan 22, 2014 10:11 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Values are dictated by the subject, not the other way around. The highest value is the valuer, per definition. If there is no valuer, there can be no value.

Value ontology is the ontology of the valuer, which is the hub of the universe.

A value can be something that an atom requires to exist. It's not a product of consciousness. Consciousness is a highly complex form of valuing.

Establishing objective value is the precise opposite of what VO does.

Life is not itself necessarily of value to the one who is living it. That is why people kill themselves. Life is a result of valuing. Life is valuing, and if it values itself, it will keep on living. But it will only value itself because it is a means to attain to certain values. There is no "will to live": at the basis of life, life is a contingency of the will to attain values.

I realize that this is a deeply radical reversal of perspective.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Imafungi
bowstring
bowstring


Posts : 48
Join date : 2014-01-22


PostSubject: Re: attempt at a scientific definition of value Wed Jan 22, 2014 10:30 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fixed Cross wrote:
Values are dictated by the subject, not the other way around. The highest value is the valuer, per definition. If there is no valuer, there can be no value.

Value ontology is the ontology of the valuer, which is the hub of the universe.

A value can be something that an atom requires to exist. It's not a product of consciousness. Consciousness is a highly complex form of valuing.

Establishing objective value is the precise opposite of what VO does.

Life is not itself necessarily of value to the one who is living it. That is why people kill themselves. Life is a result of valuing. Life is valuing, and if it values itself, it will keep on living. But it will only value itself because it is a means to attain to certain values. There is no "will to live": at the basis of life, life is a contingency of the will to attain values.

I realize that this is a deeply radical reversal of perspective.


First your opening line you state this " The highest value is the valuer, per definition. If there is no valuer, there can be no value."

which contradicts your last paragraph, right?
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6665
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: attempt at a scientific definition of value Tue Sep 23, 2014 8:27 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
No. The last paragraph says that if there is no value, the valuer will come to cease to exist. It say nothing about where there is no valuer.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides








Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6665
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: QM Double Slit Thu Oct 10, 2013 12:04 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
With the double slit experiment, you always hear: "an electron behaves both like a particle and a wave" or "an electron behaves now like a particle and then as a wave". That's misleadingly phrased.

When the electrons are quantized by influencing them from another frame of reference, their pattern of distribution is like that of particles, and if you do not influence them from this other spacetime frame, they distribute according to the logic of wavefunctions.

I think that the coherence of their arrival pattern is guaranteed only if their reference frame is left intact, when all that matters is the coherence between the charge of the source and the charge of the impact.

The electrons do not need to exist as such, they are only the transference of charge. If man insists on measuring this quantifyingly, the electrons which are actually measured as individual causal agents (detected) do not thereafter alter their quantized state. They have been brought into the context of another reference frame, and can not at the same time disregard this frame.

The pure frame involves only the charge (value) of the electron source, which is a turbulence, and its wavelike (highly interactive) distribution.



Analogical suggestion - value will distribute differently when it is quantized/monetized, then when it is distributed in a direct transaction, where the frame of reference is only the relation between giver and receiver. In this context we might say that "meaning" is left intact. I can imagine that this can be extrapolated to the quantum state, in the sense that, very broadly, "il n'y a pas de hors-texte" applies and the QM "weirdness" can be seen as a hermeneutical incompetence.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6665
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: QM Double Slit Thu Oct 10, 2013 12:58 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I can't grasp the math, but I grasp the logic of it, which seems implicit in relativity itself. We've established that c is the only constant which is present in all measurements. All measurements are based on this constancy.

The electrons are measured (experience to be present, affecting) by being exposed to c as relative to reference frame of the observer. Their behavior is thus bent to the measure of the observer, which is to say that they are, at that moment, electrons. We are necessarily measuring the electrons that apply to c as it is from our frame of reference, which means a distribution that is physically logical. But if this reference frame is not involved, there is no necessity for peak-quantity to appear as a click in a frame of reference, but simply the possibility of light from any frame of reference.

And equally as gravity is curved, the peaking and declining functions on the screen are representations of potentiating optimizations, self-accumulative (content to the second power), climaxing and silencing. The behavior of undetected electricity the behavior of potential itself reacting to itself. As soon as potential becomes manifest, it ceases to exist as part of the field it arose from. Similarly souls are born into matter and die into the Bitter Sea.

It leaves me wondering - what is the contradiction between relativity and QM?



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6665
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: QM Double Slit Thu Oct 10, 2013 1:22 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
"Nature herself doesn't know where the electron will go".

- the electron as self-valuing will move in accordance to its context (its own valuing; direction-response-continuum), the electron as valued in terms of observer will go in accordance with the observers context.

Prediction without measurement is implicit, prediction with measurement is distribution.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6665
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: QM Double Slit Thu Oct 10, 2013 1:48 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
It's only the nature of experimenting, not the nature of nature, that produces these anomalies.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5478
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: QM Double Slit Thu Oct 10, 2013 2:42 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Yes I've read this before, it represents a thus-far insurmountable obstacle for experimental method in these instances, the fact that the experimental design itself is somehow setting up a "resonance" or "circuit" that is actually influencing/creating the anomalies. This has a name, but I can't remember it at the moment.

If quanta/light, "photons", are minimal valuing then they must take on the nature of that through which they move, they must be secondary values OR value-less to such a medium-frame. c would be an example of valuelessness of light with respect to another frame, to certain properties of a frame; double slit would be an example of absolute secondary value-assumption to another frame, to certain properties of a frame (namely, the experimental setup).



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5478
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: QM Double Slit Thu Oct 10, 2013 2:45 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Therefore in the case of these experiments we get a strong-precise valuing (the human experimenting) encountering either an absolute self-value (e.g. c) or an absolute no-self-value (e.g. wave collapse, double slit anomalies). But this interesting question of how this interaction takes place and is even possible aside, what determines the difference between either absolute self-valuing of "light" or absolute no-self-valuing of "light"?



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6665
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: QM Double Slit Fri Oct 11, 2013 12:08 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
In philosophers terms, will to power.

The photons or electrons (I'll use photons here) moving through the slits are influenced by whatever material is calibrated to 'make sense of them' (hit them to draw specific energy from them) at the slits.

You can't measure the quanta at the slits without actually having something collide with them. The calibration of that 'hit' is set in terms of the experimenters reference frame.

It's important to note that only if they are successfully manipulated so as to affect the observer at the slits, then they are observed as quanta with sufficient individual momentum to behave as particles.

If the emitted measuring energy is so weak (emitting photons or whatever at too great intervals) as to miss a quantum, then the quantum does not behave accordingly to being influenced as a quantum.

It's very literal value ontological logic at work.

The how of this is implicit in the a priori definition of the required outcome. So we can pull a philosophers trick and reverse the phrasing of the conclusion of the experiment: The influence is only sufficient to disturb the interference pattern if it manages to quantize the light.

Light appears to not be "made of photons" per se, rather, photons are the minimal form in which light is measured as a unit.

A photon is the epistemic unit of light.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Imafungi
bowstring
bowstring


Posts : 48
Join date : 2014-01-22


PostSubject: Re: QM Double Slit Wed Jan 22, 2014 5:45 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fixed Cross wrote:


It leaves me wondering - what is the contradiction between relativity and QM?

The contradiction, has to do with gravity, its more of an undiscovered successful bridging of the two then a contradiction because I believe they are both successful in their own arenas, General relativity being a description of the macro phenomenon of gravity down to a certain small point, and QM being the descriptions of the most micro fundamentality of what the universe is made of. The problem, though it is posited Gravitons exist (which would be the particle of the gravity field, as Photons are the particle of the EM field) the problem is they cant experimentally access gravitons though I believe they are trying and have been. Because to discover the details of the particles of matter of nature we smash them together and observe their characteristics in scattering, This is more difficult to do in an effort to search for and grasp gravities physical essence because I think it has something to do with gravities physical essence being space itself, and what happens is we just create mini black holes...But I only know relative generalities about this topic so you would probably be better off asking google.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6665
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: QM Double Slit Tue Sep 23, 2014 8:37 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Imafungi wrote:
Fixed Cross wrote:


It leaves me wondering - what is the contradiction between relativity and QM?

The contradiction, has to do with gravity, its more of an undiscovered successful bridging of the two then a contradiction because I believe they are both successful in their own arenas, General relativity being a description of the macro phenomenon of gravity down to a certain small point, and QM being the descriptions of the most micro fundamentality of what the universe is made of. The problem, though it is posited Gravitons exist (which would be the particle of the gravity field, as Photons are the particle of the EM field) the problem is they cant experimentally access gravitons though I believe they are trying and have been. Because to discover the details of the particles of matter of nature we smash them together and observe their characteristics in scattering, This is more difficult to do in an effort to search for and grasp gravities physical essence because I think it has something to do with gravities physical essence being space itself, and what happens is we just create mini black holes...But I only know relative generalities about this topic so you would probably be better off asking google.

This sounds plausible - it is like modern science to insist that gravity, which is the very manifestation of coherence and structuring, has itself 'particles' separate of the particles that 'have', are gravity.

Would Einsteins formula of mass and energy not be made into an irrelevancy by the existence of a particular gravity-carrier?

m = (e/c^2) + 'gravitons'...









Message
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5478
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Magnetic fields Wed Oct 09, 2013 9:37 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
How do they work? I've been reading a lot of science lately and only describes what magnets and magnetic fields are, in terms of using various descriptions and definitions involving how atoms rotate so to point in the same direction. But it does not actually explain magnetism at all.

I want to know what these "magnetic lines of force" literally are. And I can't seem to find any explanations, only descriptions.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
James S Saint
rational metaphysicist
rational metaphysicist


Posts : 244
Join date : 2011-12-26


PostSubject: Re: Magnetic fields Thu Oct 10, 2013 3:13 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
A magnetic field is merely a changing electric field. The "magnetic lines of force" are merely a method for trying to display how much the electric field is changing in that space.

The magnetic field is an "electric current" void of the electrons themselves.

Additionally, the electric field is the "electric potential". A potential is not a physical entity, rather merely a measure of a situation. But a changing potential is what physical reality is made of. Thus the magnetic field is the "stuff of physical reality". After finally learning more about physics and getting it straight in his mind, Feynman announced that he wished that he had never heard of the electric field. And yet without the field of potential, there can be no field of change in potential. Without the electric field, there can be no magnetic field.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5478
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Re: Magnetic fields Thu Oct 10, 2013 9:21 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Explain, "The magnetic field is an "electric current" void of the electrons themselves", in light of the fact that electricity is the flow of electrons.



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
James S Saint
rational metaphysicist
rational metaphysicist


Posts : 244
Join date : 2011-12-26


PostSubject: Re: Magnetic fields Fri Oct 11, 2013 1:37 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Capable wrote:
Explain, "The magnetic field is an "electric current" void of the electrons themselves", in light of the fact that electricity is the flow of electrons.
Electricity is a flow of Charge (aka "potential"), originally thought to be stemming merely from electrons. But then it was discovered that electrons are merely the electric field congested at one point. People argue about why it congests, but no one argues that it isn't literally made of electromagnetic energy and nothing else.

When electric current flows through a wire, the electrons are prevalent, but they merely represent how much electric charge, "electric potential energy" is flowing. Once a charge is in motion, it is referred to as "kinetic energy" rather than "potential energy". Either way, the current flows due to the difference in potential between two points. As the circuit attempts to balance that difference, electrons (bits of congested EM) rush between the points.

The issue is merely that any changing or moving electric field is what is called a "magnetic field". When there are no electrons to flow in the attempt to balance a difference in potential, any changing that can be accomplished is done merely by the field itself without little bits of congested, concentrated charge, "electrons".
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Parodites
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 757
Join date : 2011-12-11


PostSubject: Re: Magnetic fields Sat Oct 12, 2013 2:26 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
A magnetic field operates the same way all fields operate. The concept of field itself is very important, seeing as that is all there is. Realize that non-composite sub-atomic particles are perfectly identical. Two electrons do not just look the same, two photons do not just look the same, they are the same. As identical as two number 3s. In accordance with the fundamental principle of Aristotelian logic, that A is A, electron is electron. There is only "one" electron, the localization of the omnipresent electron-field (electromagnetic tensor) which extends throughout the matrix of space time. When that field's effect is localized in a single point within space time, it has been quantized. It's quanta is the electron. When it is localized in this manner it displays a particle effect in a single location, when it is not localized then it displays a wave effect, hence particle-wave duality. This same thing works with all non-composite particles; photons, bosons, etc. Even when we push or pull on something, we are experiencing electromagnetism due to inter-molecular forces. The magnetic dipole moments are not aligned in most materials, they're random, and thus the magnetic field is zero; the dipoles are aligned in several materials though, like the magnets we put on fridges, (because the magnet on the fridge has unpaired electrons and all electrons cancel one another one when paired) and thus they produce a positively valued magnetic field that we can readily perceive. The centripetal force is either increased or decreased on electrons depending on the direction of their orbit, when exposed to a magnetic field (most fields are of zero value.) They will either be pulled away or drawn further into the nucleus of the corresponding atom. But we don't understand any of the forces of nature at their most fundamental level, because we understand them only as separate forces now.



In asking about why the electromagnetic force operates as it does, you are basically asking why electrons have the spin and charge property they do, because that force is just a mathematical description of how the electrons align and interact with one another. There are many theories. Perhaps by absorbing the virtual photons generated in the electric field, the electrons also absorb some of the angular momentum of the photons and are endowed in this manner with a particular spin and charge.



___________
A sik þau trûðu


Nisus ait, "Dine hunc ardorem mentibus addunt,
Euryale, an sua cuique deus fit dira cupido?"

Have the gods set this ruling passion in my heart,
or does each man's furious passion become his god?
- Virgil.


It is not opium which makes me work but its absence, and in order for me to feel its absence it must
from time to time be present.-- Antonin Artaud
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Imafungi
bowstring
bowstring


Posts : 48
Join date : 2014-01-22


PostSubject: Re: Magnetic fields Wed Jan 22, 2014 4:54 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Parodites wrote:


In asking about why the electromagnetic force operates as it does, you are basically asking why electrons have the spin and charge property they do, because that force is just a mathematical description of how the electrons align and interact with one another. There are many theories. Perhaps by absorbing the virtual photons generated in the electric field, the electrons also absorb some of the angular momentum of the photons and are endowed in this manner with a particular spin and charge.

So is the EM field a physical (as in, existent entity of some kind) thing which exists throughout all space, and 'the field lines', although not exactly as we depict them (like a perfect rope that connects to the electron) are existent in some manner? If there is nothing like them, why is there the need to evoke them? There needs to be an actual medium which distributes the force, EM radiation, electric and magnetic fields, as to avoid 'spooky action at a distance'. The tricky problem is in physicality and reality, how many points of EM field is connected to an electron, and how come EM radiation is distributed or caused to exist from the acceleration of an electron in a 2d plane type of way as an outwardly expanding ring of wave, and not as an outwardly expanding 3d sphere of wave. What does this say about the medium of EM field?

My personal thought is that magnetism (2 magnets naturally drawing towards one another without physically touching one another) must be similar to the principles of displacement of medium as gravity. The big clue we have, is that the difference between magnets and non magnets, are the shared direction of spin the electrons are orientated in, in a magnet. I think it must have to do with the way in which the collective electrons distort the surrounding EM field, so that when N pole to N pole, and S pole to S pole configurations, the electrons collective spin is causing the fields to be created in a way similar way to two rowboats facing one another rowing backwards, placed front to front, will repel away from one another, (severely lacking analogy but worth something possibly). N pole to S pole, S pole to N pole, the disturbances of the surrounding field due to collective electron spinning of the field, compel the collective material to follow the past of least resistance, which results in the connecting of ends, in turn creating a larger magnet, adding to the collective of mutual spin. This is very similar to how gravity works, as the moon takes the path of least resistance as the earth has distorted the local medium of space, instead of the moon traveling past earths swirled distortion, it is compelled to ride its wake.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6665
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: Magnetic fields Tue Sep 23, 2014 9:04 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
The idea of spooky action at a distance is based on the superstition that matter consists of discrete blocks of some hard substance on a background, or rather plateau of Medium, aethir, god-field. First of all this is rather silly in itself as this Medium begs the same question all over again. On what ground is this Medium predicated? What is the ground to the ground? Infinite regress, as with all sciences proposed finalities.

Second, the substance is EM and gravity. This is what particles are. Their manifestation is the force they represent.The coherence of these particles as force-standards and mediators is their being. What else is there to define, describe or identify them? Nothing.

In a similar vein, such people have asked:
'What is the essential waterness behind water? Which non- water makes the water so watery?'
It does not occur that 'things' as we designate them contain within our notion of their being, their being and thus their nature, which includes their ground.

Science is always looking for groundless grounds that ground all the rest which is taken to be purely contingent and of no existential integrity. Its eazy enough to interpret this yearning; men who live without the faintest clue that they exist by their own nature, unaware that they have a nature, that they are what nature has now become. Men who see themselves as separate of the universe, looking in on it from the outside. With all due respect, autists and idiots.











Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5478
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom


PostSubject: Scientific methodology and its limits Sun Sep 20, 2015 5:50 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Law of large numbers and attribution bias, in combination with what is almost always a huge and inevitably lack of information and data we might call totalizing, are able to call into question almost everything. These two 'laws' of scientific thought can only be refuted positively, by actual and adequate demonstration of proof by exhausting all other possibilities of explanation. Since astrology was brought up let's apply the laws to it.

Astrological events that correspond to earthly or psychological events or patterns can either be seen as evidence for the truth of astrological significances or for the fact that we attribute meaning where we are looking for it, retroactively, and that there are statistically-speaking enough "significant events" in any scope of history to where we might imagine it is inevitable that certain patterns or alignments might emerge. Another big problem is that even if we note very consistent and surprising patterns these can still be "wished away" by appeal to the law of large numbers by saying that no matter the startlingness of the coincidence it's statistically given that such coincidences would happen in a universe, world, and history as extensive and deep as ours. And further that we are attuned to attribute meaning to such coincidences far more than to the far more numerous moments we might point to where no such coincidence obtains.

I personally have suspended judgment on astrology and on most "supernatural" phenomena, I find it very difficult to state an opinion one way or another on these sort of things, because firstly I've had my own strange experiences but none approaching anything like giving me a sense of undeniable certainty about larger significances thereof, and also because philosophically-speaking our reason is able to accommodate either view: reason can either affirm or deny such things or the possibility or likelihood or unlikelihood of such things, there doesn't seem to be any real ground or basis for bringing those two different kinds of views together to verify one and refute the other. At best it usually happens that some "philosopher" or scientist ends up arguing with a layman or religious person, each throwing out their own manner of psychological need and rationally-gravitating methodologies given the kinds of experiences and thought-patterns they've each been accustomed to-- not much objective, actual philosophy, or irrefutable data for either position is offered.

So anyway I'm just interested here in outlining the basic situation as it relates to all this. I see the only thing I can state with certainty is that either position can assert a strong certainty in its defense, and thus I can also be certain that the dilemma represents a true problem, one that cannot be resolved by merely retreating into our respective positions and our own "certainties", no matter if these really are incontrovertibly certain to us.

Common ground is needed. This is very difficult to conceive, given the logical problems I mentioned here (attribution bias, law of large numbers, relative/psychological certainties, and a lack of overwhelmingly certain and objective data-experience).



___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6665
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: Scientific methodology and its limits Sun Sep 20, 2015 7:04 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I've often casually proven astrology to be true by predictions of what a chart would look like given some characteristics. I've done it in the other thread, conjuring up people I was sure to have oppositions. It's not up for question for me any more than gravity is - but it sees at first equally inexplicable.

As a general but accurate rule, the only people who do not believe in astrology are those who haven't seriously looked into it. I've seen the transformation in everyone I confronted with his chart. I've learned not to do this anymore as it is oppressive; but neither as I think Hume has a point that we don't know for certain if the sun is going to come up, do I feel there is a point to doubt astrology when the empirical evidence is as overwhelming as it is for the gravitational constant.

All you have to do is measure it, but you do have to do that.

But indeed it is hard to explain this in terms of what we already know - but given that man still knows virtually nothing, it's not surprising to me that the more we come to know, by the philosophical work of our friends and ourselves, the less strange or unlikely it becomes that we are products of more than just configurations of molecules on Earth, that we actually stand as in the center of a cosmos; that our being is far too subtle to not be influenced by the cosmic majesty of order, which was fleshed out as the argument for possibility itself.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6665
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: Scientific methodology and its limits Sun Sep 20, 2015 7:18 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I get it, I feel it even - it is ugly compared to philosophy - it shouldn't go near it - it feels arbitrary.

But it's one hard motherfucking fact of life we're gonna have to get realistic about.

Not that it's arbitrary, but that it is the opposite. Today, I have gone a long way to explaining it based on Parodites' conception of the origin of the mind - as the re-anchoring of beings in the world, in coherence, in being, after the instincts had been 'threshed' by the self-analyzing being; the 'empty mind', or the chaotic firstborn-mind opened itself up to the cosmos as a gaping wound to receive any possible ointment of constancy. And this is still the way that shamans rip open the fabric of causality to the spontaneous dance of the soul under the sky in which the connection between the two is the actual being. This is why the lightning is the symbol of divinity - the coherence of our mind reflects the discharge of cosmic order into the vacuous proto-consciousness represented by the threshing floor, where the wills of the gods bundle to play with man.



___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Pezer
builder
builder
avatar

Posts : 2190
Join date : 2011-11-15
Location : deep caverns in caves


PostSubject: Re: Scientific methodology and its limits Sun Sep 20, 2015 7:45 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Common ground. I think it is somewhere in chemistry. Astrology is alchemical, as is science. Lack of information and bias: does value ontology not predict them? Value. Science doesn't seek value, it seems to me to give value depth, practicality. To apply huge maths to intuitions by relating evidences. This problem of not being able to achieve a totality points to that we have not allowed science to run wild, a separation between psychological need and independent, ideal potency which is not possible as absolute. Rather philosophy waits at the other end.

Yes, I think science's lack is the obsession on absolute rather than specific. The principle is what concerns us.

Capable's post seems simple, but each turning point has already been examined in other posts. Reason.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Pezer
builder
builder
avatar

Posts : 2190
Join date : 2011-11-15
Location : deep caverns in caves


PostSubject: Re: Scientific methodology and its limits Sun Sep 20, 2015 8:15 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I think I'm wrong about chemistry.

Common ground will not come that easy.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Pezer
builder
builder
avatar

Posts : 2190
Join date : 2011-11-15
Location : deep caverns in caves


PostSubject: Re: Scientific methodology and its limits Sun Sep 20, 2015 8:21 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
About astrology, I will say that it is an opposite of supernatural. I is very much chemical, dealing with gravity and light... It could be said to be the effective result of that which any science aspires to as the highest degree of inter-relation.

The ultimate reference for animality. But this is all very anti-philosophical. I will need more space of space and of mind to get back to this. Let it be recorded that philosophy has not yet engulfed science.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6665
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships


PostSubject: Re: Scientific methodology and its limits Sun Sep 20, 2015 9:06 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I wrote this post an hour or so ago on an empty stomach. I've eaten lentil soup with sausage now.

The status of the argument is as follows:

under scrutiny is astrology.

Note: I can't allow any relation of this field with the term 'supernatural' or any other phenomena falling under that term, this is a specific field of inquiry and relates to fields that are vague only in the sense of having a vague understanding of it. It is ruthlessly exact and there is no room for doubt about the consistency of influences.

It is a culturally imposed superstition that leads people to doubt astrology. All serious cultures take it seriously, because you can not tae calculated risks without it and you can not build greatness without a lot of good fortune.
They called the farao's the cosmic architects. It's a field of knowledge that leads to long term power. If anything it's the actual gift of Prometheus; fore-sight. That this is often deadly is the reason astrology is shunned, but for a philosopher this fear is not quite as well founded as it is for people with lesser inclinations to know themselves. In all western wars serious astrologers are consulted, and newspapers print 'horoscopes' that prescribe events based on sun signs, which is impossible, it is very clear why astrology is discredited, but it is not clear why it is working so well. Again; my best argument is the one I've given today - the moment that being had disconnected the instincts from each other, man stood erect; the moment man stood erect he was crowned by the heavens. As the earthly causal chain was broken, the celestial one was forged. The moment in between is the great possibility that Parodites' philosophy describes and thereby opens up for 'use', and this moment underlies all consciousness. Astrology functions as a particular set of laws on the field of the daemonic formative process, but it is no less adequate to the phenomenology of human fate as physics is to the phenomenology of falling objects. This absurd consistency is why I make such a point of it. It's not that it's merely interesting, it's rather that it is an entire field of exact knowledge that is disregarded with this mere disregarding as grounds for the conclusion that it isn't proven to work. Yes, it is proven. It's been proven to work a long, long time ago and never not been proven since. It's only not been clear at all how it works. But the same goes for gravity, and a lot of things of which we only now that it works. The actual, historical reason man started disbelieving astrology is that he started believing in the Bible which forbids it. I' sure took Newton a while to get people to believe that such exactitude of prediction could be possible, before he could get them to actually test out his laws. Now the effective terms of astrology are not less exact than the terms of mass, but our words for our own states of being are slightly less exact. Astrologers therefore prefer to work with the astrological names wherever they can. They are by far the most exact terms we have for "human being".
Image
For behold, all acts of love and pleasure are my rituals
User avatar
Jakob
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 6100
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:23 pm
Location: look at my suit

PreviousNext

Return to Non-Philosophical Chat



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users