"Ad Hominous ThreadS"

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Re: "Ad Hominous ThreadS"

Postby James S Saint » Fri Feb 21, 2014 9:27 pm

mr reasonable wrote:It can teach you how to tell whether you''re reasoning correctly. Most people aren't interested in that though.

I am... ??
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: "Ad Hominous ThreadS"

Postby James S Saint » Fri Feb 21, 2014 9:33 pm

mr reasonable wrote:Well, once you finish understanding the rest of the philosophers as you say, you'll realize that your philosophy isn't new. I'm not trying to upset you but how on earth do you think you've come up with a new philosophy?

Do you think the same after reading Humanarchy?
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 25779
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: "Ad Hominous ThreadS"

Postby iambiguous » Fri Feb 21, 2014 9:59 pm

mr reasonable wrote:It can teach you how to tell whether you''re reasoning correctly. Most people aren't interested in that though.


But my point is there is no way [objectively] in which to determine who is reasoning correctly when behaviors come into conflicts. Instead, in places like this, folks will often just assume it is that they are. And then when others don't agree that is when the exchange can devolve into a flurry of ad hominems.

The problem [from my perspective] revolves around recognizing the limitations of philosophical language in contexts such as these.

From my own experience then what most folks are not interested in is exploring this further from the perspective of dasein and conflicting goods. Why? Because [again in my opinion] to do so might bring them to the conclusion that objectivism itself is the problem here.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
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Re: "Ad Hominous ThreadS"

Postby James S Saint » Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:13 pm

iambiguous wrote:But my point is there is no way [objectively] in which to determine who is reasoning correctly when behaviors come into conflicts.

..Instead you "Think" that it is impossible to think correctly, so why bother to try. I would have to put that one on the top of the list of "How to not think correctly".
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 25779
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: "Ad Hominous ThreadS"

Postby iambiguous » Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:31 pm

James S Saint wrote:
iambiguous wrote:But my point is there is no way [objectively] in which to determine who is reasoning correctly when behaviors come into conflicts.

..Instead you "Think" that it is impossible to think correctly, so why bother to try. I would have to put that one on the top of the list of "How to not think correctly".


No, I situate thoughts I have about these things in particular contexts and try to show how people can think about the context from differing [conflicting] points of view that objectivists are then unable to distill down to the most rational point of view. Aside from "up there" of course.

The difference between your objectivism and the objectivism of many others I have encountered is that you refuse even to engage your theoretical constructs [your definitions] out in the world of actual conflicting behaviors. Whether with respect to the Mormon couple or John and Mary and the unborn child or any particular new context you might introduce] it always comes down to either agreeing with the internal logic of your theoretical abstractions or not.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
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Re: "Ad Hominous ThreadS"

Postby fuse » Sat Feb 22, 2014 5:51 am

I went through the trouble to do a search for threads where Smears (mr r) talked about the subject/object distinction and found a pretty great example of a healthier atmosphere on this forum, with Smears leading the discussion no less.

http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=157191

We ought to step up and try to turn this forum around. I don't get the same feeling when I come to ILP anymore, this place has a lot of negative and prohibitive energy for me and I don't think I'm the only one. I think people of the current membership have come to be so familiar with one another that ego has taken the forefront and we can't see past personality anymore to have a thoughtful thread. Go back to almost any random old thread, the character of the discussion is worlds different. I mean, there are still some occasional good discussions, but the general mood at ILP has grown a lot more sour and combative over the years which just feeds back on itself prohibiting thoughtfulness.

I think everyone who's posted in this thread is in one way or another a "heavy hitter" for this site, not just as veteran members but as fairly thoughtful people. If anyone holds weight in setting a tone throughout the forum it's some of the people in here.

What's the barrier to setting a better tone for the site?
Don't you all agree that it would be better to have less of the soap opera personal battles constantly exploding across the site and more threads like the one I linked above, where people feel at ease to just think freely?
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Re: "Ad Hominous ThreadS"

Postby Mr Reasonable » Sat Feb 22, 2014 10:48 am

Its only been in the lasy few months that ive even payed attention to wbo im talking to. I dont even know these people. I mean i just realized not long ago that james is on the RM kick. I make it a point not to know any of you. It helps me sort the bs. Lately, the site has been flooded and spammed by the same racist, sexist kts member hiding thier idebtitjes and ruining any kind of good discussion. I think that has to be addressed. Even still, its not the racism or sexism that's the main problem. Its that the reasoning is poor. The posters are incoherent and the shit only serves as a distraction to good discourse. Anyone who doesnt see this is an idiot.
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.
Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

What exactly is logic? -Magnus Anderson

Support the innocence project on AmazonSmile instead of Turd's African savior biker dude.
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Re: "Ad Hominous ThreadS"

Postby James S Saint » Sat Feb 22, 2014 11:33 am

fuse wrote:What's the barrier to setting a better tone for the site?

Proper moderation.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 25779
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: "Ad Hominous ThreadS"

Postby phyllo » Sat Feb 22, 2014 2:29 pm

Lately, the site has been flooded and spammed by the same racist, sexist kts member hiding thier idebtitjes and ruining any kind of good discussion.
You can't blame this on KTS members.

The old members have become nasty. The new members are more interested in dishing out subtle insults and stroking their egos than in a productive discussion.
"Who loves not wine, woman and song, remains a fool his whole life long."

"Only the educated are free" - Epictetus
"Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy" -Beethoven
"Everyday life is the way" -Wumen
"Do not permit the events of your daily life to bind you, but never withdraw yourself from them" - Wumen
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Re: "Ad Hominous ThreadS"

Postby phyllo » Sat Feb 22, 2014 2:32 pm

James S Saint wrote:
fuse wrote:What's the barrier to setting a better tone for the site?

Proper moderation.

Moderation is a convenient scapegoat and an easy way to avoid personal responsibility.
"Who loves not wine, woman and song, remains a fool his whole life long."

"Only the educated are free" - Epictetus
"Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy" -Beethoven
"Everyday life is the way" -Wumen
"Do not permit the events of your daily life to bind you, but never withdraw yourself from them" - Wumen
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Re: "Ad Hominous ThreadS"

Postby Arcturus Descending » Sat Feb 22, 2014 5:10 pm

Fixed Cross wrote:
Magsj, you're the very reason I started treating people worse here. Your modding a actions and subsequent aloof and dismissive comments gave me the sign that ILP is nothing to respect, just a place to shit. I try to ignore that and keep posting serious things but it´s increasingly difficult. Thanks for that.


I'm rather surprised at that, FC. You don't generally strike me as the type of person who is influenced in such a way by the actions of others (your perception of those actions) that you would emulate them and then blame your actions/behavior on others. I thought that you were more noble than that.

ILP is nothing to respect, just a place to shit


What's the expression, Fixed Cross - "If we are not part of the solution, we are part of the problem."
Of course, you are entitled to your "opinion" your 'perception" - but if indeed that is your perception, that ILP is THAT, "just a place of shit", in what way does dropping your own verbal diarrhea clean ILP up?
If we are treating people in a bad way, it is OUR VERY OWN DECISION to do that. Are we THAT helpless?
Are we so swayed by public opinion and example? Are we sheep or are we Eagles?
SAPERE AUDE!


If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped.


What we take ourselves to be doing when we think about what is the case or how we should act is something that cannot be reconciled with a reductive naturalism, for reasons distinct from those that entail the irreducibility of consciousness. It is not merely the subjectivity of thought but its capacity to transcend subjectivity and to discover what is objectively the case that presents a problem....Thought and reasoning are correct or incorrect in virtue of something independent of the thinker's beliefs, and even independent of the community of thinkers to which he belongs.

Thomas Nagel


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Re: "Ad Hominous ThreadS"

Postby Fixed Cross » Sat Feb 22, 2014 11:09 pm

Arc - at one point it's just karma. Don't imagine that your comment is different in nature.

Smears - please produce the basic premises of Value Ontology and Rational Metaphysics.
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
- Thucydides

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Re: "Ad Hominous ThreadS"

Postby Mr Reasonable » Sat Feb 22, 2014 11:12 pm

Fixed, you don't have to keep on. You can just admit you were wrong man. I know it's hard.
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.
Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

What exactly is logic? -Magnus Anderson

Support the innocence project on AmazonSmile instead of Turd's African savior biker dude.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/
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Re: "Ad Hominous ThreadS"

Postby fuse » Sat Feb 22, 2014 11:49 pm

mr reasonable wrote:Even still, its not the racism or sexism that's the main problem. Its that the reasoning is poor.

I don't think poor reasoning is the main problem with the site. Hopefully we all examine our reasoning and improve it at times. The thread I linked probably had it's share of poor reasoning in some of the posts, but everyone was more concerned with the project of understanding the subject/object distinction than "winning the argument."

phyllo wrote:
mr reasonable wrote: Lately, the site has been flooded and spammed by the same racist, sexist kts member hiding thier idebtitjes and ruining any kind of good discussion.

You can't blame this on KTS members.

The old members have become nasty. The new members are more interested in dishing out subtle insults and stroking their egos than in a productive discussion.

Pretty much.
At one point in time, the environment here was a lot more friendly and collegial.
I suppose circa 2004-2006, when I was getting involved, there was still some novelty in participating on a philosophy discussion board with people all over the world. It felt a bit more special and I think this carried over into how people treated each other.
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Re: "Ad Hominous ThreadS"

Postby Mr Reasonable » Sat Feb 22, 2014 11:51 pm

One of the first threads I ever made here was about whether you wanted to win or to find the best possible answer. It's probably buried under 100000 pages of people bashing women and people of other races.
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.
Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

What exactly is logic? -Magnus Anderson

Support the innocence project on AmazonSmile instead of Turd's African savior biker dude.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/
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Re: "Ad Hominous ThreadS"

Postby Mr Reasonable » Sat Feb 22, 2014 11:56 pm

The first argument I had here was with Gobbo. I was arguing the position that whether or not you agree with Dick Cheney's morals and all, that his political prowess was something to be studied. I mean, how can a guy do all these horrible things that the world apparently doesn't want him to do, and rise to such power that he impacts literally everything? Gobbo was all like, "he starts wars and eats babies for breakfast!", and I was like "dude, that's what I"m saying, how interesting is it that one man can position himself in the way that Cheney has?"

It was a pretty good one.
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.
Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

What exactly is logic? -Magnus Anderson

Support the innocence project on AmazonSmile instead of Turd's African savior biker dude.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/
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Re: "Ad Hominous ThreadS"

Postby fuse » Sat Feb 22, 2014 11:59 pm

James S Saint wrote:
fuse wrote:What's the barrier to setting a better tone for the site?

Proper moderation.

That's part of it, but I think the responsibility falls largely on us as well. So why do we feed into the bullshit?
I definitely get caught up in it at times and I know all of us here have.
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Re: "Ad Hominous ThreadS"

Postby fuse » Sun Feb 23, 2014 12:01 am

mr reasonable wrote:One of the first threads I ever made here was about whether you wanted to win or to find the best possible answer. It's probably buried under 100000 pages of people bashing women and people of other races.

There's always been that, but there also used to be a lot of pretty good friendly threads. Just look back at an old member's post history and browse for a few minutes. Is it just me, or did the conversations generally take a more productive tone back then?
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Re: "Ad Hominous ThreadS"

Postby Mr Reasonable » Sun Feb 23, 2014 12:13 am

Well, when Faust, Tent, Gobbo and SIATD are all bored with it or tired of it and leave, then you're going to end up with a conversation that just gets a little dumber. It is what it is man.
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.
Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

What exactly is logic? -Magnus Anderson

Support the innocence project on AmazonSmile instead of Turd's African savior biker dude.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/
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Re: "Ad Hominous ThreadS"

Postby Fixed Cross » Sun Feb 23, 2014 12:27 am

mr reasonable wrote:Fixed, you don't have to keep on. You can just admit you were wrong man. I know it's hard.

Okay you are on crack. It's official.

Great job man.
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
- Thucydides

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Re: "Ad Hominous ThreadS"

Postby Fixed Cross » Sun Feb 23, 2014 12:30 am

mr reasonable wrote:Well, when Faust, Tent, Gobbo and SIATD are all bored with it or tired of it and leave, then you're going to end up with a conversation that just gets a little dumber. It is what it is man.

You are aware that SIATD is the owner of Humanarchy, right?
What you probably don't now is that it's based on value ontology.

SIATD is one of the people who has adopted VO and is now in the process of learning about RM.

Gobbo had Value Ontology as his twitter account, which was a bit bizarre.
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
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Re: "Ad Hominous ThreadS"

Postby Mr Reasonable » Sun Feb 23, 2014 12:35 am

Fixed Cross wrote:
mr reasonable wrote:Fixed, you don't have to keep on. You can just admit you were wrong man. I know it's hard.

Okay you are on crack. It's official.

Great job man.



Thank you. But for real I"m like 5'10 and 200lbs. There's no way I'm on crack. Those guys should come back. I don't wanna go to a new website that no one knows about and that doesn't have enough traffic to keep me entertained.
Last edited by Mr Reasonable on Sun Feb 23, 2014 12:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.
Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

What exactly is logic? -Magnus Anderson

Support the innocence project on AmazonSmile instead of Turd's African savior biker dude.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/
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Re: "Ad Hominous ThreadS"

Postby Fixed Cross » Sun Feb 23, 2014 12:37 am

Siatd said to me that value ontology is better than crack. I don't think he tried crack, but it's an expression. Still, VO has been compared to numerous drugs. But unlike crack you can't smoke it.
Last edited by Fixed Cross on Sun Feb 23, 2014 12:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
- Thucydides

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Re: "Ad Hominous ThreadS"

Postby Fixed Cross » Sun Feb 23, 2014 12:38 am

mr reasonable wrote:
Fixed Cross wrote:
mr reasonable wrote:Fixed, you don't have to keep on. You can just admit you were wrong man. I know it's hard.

Okay you are on crack. It's official.

Great job man.



Thank you. But for real I"m like 5'10 and 200lbs. There's no way I'm on crack.

I'm not your priest.
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
- Thucydides

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Re: "Ad Hominous ThreadS"

Postby Mr Reasonable » Sun Feb 23, 2014 12:40 am

I've never even met a priest. No one took me to church when I was a kid, or ever really.

You can see my 5'10 200lb ass in the post a pic thread. That's scientific proof or something.
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.
Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

What exactly is logic? -Magnus Anderson

Support the innocence project on AmazonSmile instead of Turd's African savior biker dude.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/
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