2 months--no drugs or alcohol

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Re: 2 months--no drugs or alcohol

Postby gib » Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:32 pm

Arcturus Descending wrote:I think by doing it with complete Mindfulness. Whatever one is doing throughout the day, if it is being done with Mindfulness, focusing only on that which is being done, not allowing our minds/thoughts or emotions to become scattered, that can become a form of meditation I think. Something as simple as putting our whole selves into washing dishes can become a meditation.


So if I was tying my shoes and having a conversation with someone at the same time, that wouldn't be meditation. But if I were to focus solely on tying my shoe, that would be meditation. Would meditation then just be being present in anything you do?

Arcturus Descending wrote:How could such a thing lose meaning especially when one's whole Self becomes a part of everything which one does? I would think that the world at large could/would open up to more meaning since we ourselves would not be so fragmented.


It wouldn't lose meaning if we're making this distinction (mindfulness vs. non-mindfulness), but if meditation just means "doing stuff" than what does it mean over and above "doing stuff"? If the latter is the case, then to say "I was meditating by doing dishes," might as well be replaced with "I was doing dishes," and you might as well remove the term from the vocabulary.
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Re: 2 months--no drugs or alcohol

Postby Arcturus Descending » Fri Jan 03, 2020 5:10 pm

Gib,

Would meditation then just be being present in anything you do?

lol No but that would be Mindfulness but mindfulness is part and parcel of meditation.

...but if meditation just means "doing stuff" than what does it mean over and above "doing stuff"?

That would not be meditation either. That would just be "doing stuff".

The monks in a monastery I believe see their whole day as a form of meditation because everything which they do has value and meaning to them. So, I think that it would depend on intent and will.

If the latter is the case, then to say "I was meditating by doing dishes,

I do not think that someone would word it in that way but I may be wrong. An individual might say that doing dishes is a form of meditation to them. That is their choice to think and to feel that way, to find value and meaning in that. It is their deliberate intent and will to see in that a form of meditation.

What is the purpose behind meditating?

gib, do you not find any value and meaning at all in doing dishes or do you like the idea of bacteria growing in your sink? :wink:

Perhaps we like to raise our forms of meditation to the heights, to see them as something almost next to God. They do not need to be that way. They could be akin to listening to the sound of a bird chirping in a tree or watching a child making mud patties...as long as we give our entire beings to the partaking of it.

Who knows? That might also lend itself to experiencing enlightenment but do not go looking for it, gib.
It will run from you. O/K - I think.
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"Two things fill the mind with ever new and increasing admiration and awe, the oftener and more steadily we reflect on them: the starry heavens above me and the moral law within me."


“Whereas the beautiful is limited, the sublime is limitless, so that the mind in the presence of the sublime, attempting to imagine what it cannot, has pain in the failure but pleasure in contemplating the immensity of the attempt.”

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Re: 2 months--no drugs or alcohol

Postby Arcturus Descending » Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:32 pm

Fixed Cross

Hmmm, Im sorry then to have misunderstood. But glad also that it wasn't a right understanding.


Hmmm, Still thinking? :mrgreen: Rest assured that it was a misunderstanding, Fixed Cross. Clean slate - insofar as human beings can make of their selves clean slates considering all of the past baggage which we carry along with us. (speaking universally here).

Honestly I was still angry at what you seemed to suggest, that I asked "why stay alive" as a serious question.


Well, I suppose that is because perhaps we think along different lines. Now you would probably be very happy about that and I would not blame you in the least. As for myself, I do see the question of "Why stay alive" as a serious question and that is why I chose to answer it in my own way.

Consider someone who is pondering suicide because life seems to be going downhill and very little meaning is being derived from it in their case. Posing the question "Why stay alive" might just give one pause and open to possibilities not thought of or wonderful memories forgotten about.

Aside from that, when we ask a question like that the world can become our oyster. Now who knows. My perspective is just mine and maybe it is also a faulty one but....

Im a bit ill tempered because of all the recent events here, and the reverberations it had.


???????

Anyway , the will too power is Nietzsche's thought, and because Pedro is a Nietzschean, I used it to make my point to him.


I do know a bit about Nietzsche. I have read a few of his books ~ believe it or not.

The theory Nietzscheans have acknowledged as true is that the world is will to power and nothing besides.
The idea is that one does not live merely to live, but that one lives to constantly attain, in a broad sense, power.

That can be a really dangerous concept. We can see how that twisted and half-baked concept worked for Hitler and his nazi pigs.

There does not seem to be much room to breath or to enjoy or to really grow in that way. But I suppose that even a despotic pig would have his moments of letting go and enjoyment. Otherwise, how could one live in that way? But again I may be wrong.

There are times when I can actually "see" this myself or at least sense it. One will come home from work tired and/or moody and all one hears is the saga of dog eat dog, dog killing dog, dog's inhumanity to dog (humans). Does that necessarily make it so though? I suppose that the Nietzscheans are right to a certain degrees.

Anyway, is "will to power" necessarily always a negative or evil thing? What about the will to power which it takes for human beings to fight for the rights of other human beings or animals, to save endangered species, even those beautiful endangered species like the trees, for clean air or oceans, et cetera? I think that it all depends on what it is that we are willing and how we are about to use the power which we want to summon up.

Do Nietzscheans believe that humanity's main focus is only on feeling exhilarated over the rush of despotic power being used for evil coursing through their veins or can it also be "other" focused on the common good?

It is in a sense an unfortunate phrase because power is so easily conflated with dominion.

This can even easily be seen here in ILP. Dog eat dog, one trying to dominate another, to gain so-called power over another. What kind of "real" inner power is there when one feels the need to go on attack in order to win points during a discussion! What kind f confidence in one's own intellect is that? That is not so much power but inner weakness. As Pittacus said: "The measure of a man is what he does with po
"Look closely. The beautiful may be small."


"Two things fill the mind with ever new and increasing admiration and awe, the oftener and more steadily we reflect on them: the starry heavens above me and the moral law within me."


“Whereas the beautiful is limited, the sublime is limitless, so that the mind in the presence of the sublime, attempting to imagine what it cannot, has pain in the failure but pleasure in contemplating the immensity of the attempt.”

Immanuel Kant
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Re: 2 months--no drugs or alcohol

Postby gib » Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:11 am

Arcturus Descending wrote:I do not think that someone would word it in that way but I may be wrong. An individual might say that doing dishes is a form of meditation to them. That is their choice to think and to feel that way, to find value and meaning in that. It is their deliberate intent and will to see in that a form of meditation.


I'm not brushing this off. I think some people do practice meditation in all their daily activities. It wouldn't be the activity itself that counts as meditation, but how they do it--how mindful or "present" they are when they do it. I think that beats sitting in the lotus position doing nothing.

Arcturus Descending wrote:gib, do you not find any value and meaning at all in doing dishes or do you like the idea of bacteria growing in your sink? :wink:


I've always been confused at people's use of the word "meaning". I think they mean something different by it than what I mean. They seem to mean something like purpose. Or worthwhile goal. So cleaning dishes in order to get rid of bacteria would be meaningful--that's a purpose, a worthwhile goal--not a deep one, but a goal nonetheless.

Arcturus Descending wrote:Perhaps we like to raise our forms of meditation to the heights, to see them as something almost next to God. They do not need to be that way. They could be akin to listening to the sound of a bird chirping in a tree or watching a child making mud patties...as long as we give our entire beings to the partaking of it.


True dat.

Arcturus Descending wrote:Who knows? That might also lend itself to experiencing enlightenment but do not go looking for it, gib.
It will run from you. O/K - I think.


Well, to bring in some perspective from my I Don't Get Budhism thread: who even knows what enlightenment is? Let alone knows how to look for it.
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Re: 2 months--no drugs or alcohol

Postby Tab » Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:40 am

Hey Gib, I think all of the experiences in this thread must have happened in the period I wasn't here, just wanted to say good job, I've been through some of the things you have, and know it ain't easy to put a leash on your life sometimes.
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Re: 2 months--no drugs or alcohol

Postby gib » Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:00 pm

Appreciate it Tab.

Are you the same Tab who used to have a guy with a TV for a head as his avatar?
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In fact, the idea that there's more differences between groups than there is between individuals is actually the fundamental racist idea.
- Jordan Peterson

Here's a good rule of thumb for politics--attribute everything to stupidity unless you can prove malice.
- Ben Shapiro

right outta high school i tried to get a job as a proctologist but i couldn't find an opening.
- promethean75

Ahh... gib, zombie universes are so last year! I’m doing hyper dimensional mirror realities now.
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Re: 2 months--no drugs or alcohol

Postby Arcturus Descending » Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:51 pm

gib,

It wouldn't be the activity itself that counts as meditation, but how they do it--how mindful or "present" they are when they do it.

I think that it would be both, gib if something is being used as a form of meditation. I do not think that you can dismiss the activity itself and only place the emphasis on the mindfulness. I am very mindful and focused when I type up a set of interrogatories but I do not consider that to be a form of meditation.

I think that beats sitting in the lotus position doing nothing.


Why do you assume that nothing is being done or happening as they sit in that lotus position?

I've always been confused at people's use of the word "meaning". I think they mean something different by it than what I mean. They seem to mean something like purpose. Or worthwhile goal. So cleaning dishes in order to get rid of bacteria would be meaningful--that's a purpose, a worthwhile goal--not a deep one, but a goal nonetheless.


I think that meaning and purpose are different. One can derive meaning from doing something which one finds to be purposeful although one may not find meaning in that. So they may swim in the some waters but they can be different.
Meaning to me is the emotional and also perhaps intellectual sense (for lack of a better word) which is derived from how our senses are influenced by and interpret the world around us. It depends on who we are as individuals.

Perhaps we like to raise our forms of meditation to the heights, to see them as something almost next to God. They do not need to be that way. They could be akin to listening to the sound of a bird chirping in a tree or watching a child making mud patties...as long as we give our entire beings to the partaking of it.

True dat.

That is my thinking anyway.

Who knows? That might also lend itself to experiencing enlightenment but do not go looking for it, gib.
It will run from you. O/K - I think.


I had a moment a few years back where I feel I had a moment of enlightenment. It really almost felt to me like "a bright light went on" though I realize that one did not. Do you know where it came from? I accidentally stepped in some pretty thick mud while out walking in the part and it was not so easy to pull out of it. In that instant, it came to me and I laughed out loud. Of course, I do think that it came to me as a result of a process which had been going on in mind for awhile.
"Look closely. The beautiful may be small."


"Two things fill the mind with ever new and increasing admiration and awe, the oftener and more steadily we reflect on them: the starry heavens above me and the moral law within me."


“Whereas the beautiful is limited, the sublime is limitless, so that the mind in the presence of the sublime, attempting to imagine what it cannot, has pain in the failure but pleasure in contemplating the immensity of the attempt.”

Immanuel Kant
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Re: 2 months--no drugs or alcohol

Postby Tab » Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:58 pm

Yup, ex-TV head guy here.
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Re: 2 months--no drugs or alcohol

Postby gib » Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:35 pm

Tab wrote:Yup, ex-TV head guy here.


So why the raven now? Any special meaning?
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In fact, the idea that there's more differences between groups than there is between individuals is actually the fundamental racist idea.
- Jordan Peterson

Here's a good rule of thumb for politics--attribute everything to stupidity unless you can prove malice.
- Ben Shapiro

right outta high school i tried to get a job as a proctologist but i couldn't find an opening.
- promethean75

Ahh... gib, zombie universes are so last year! I’m doing hyper dimensional mirror realities now.
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Re: 2 months--no drugs or alcohol

Postby Tab » Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:51 pm

Nooo, just the damn site's avatar requirements won't accept anything bigger than a postage stamp. I have a lot of ravens flap about in front of my house most days, smart little buggers. And Odin's Huginn and Muninn.

More to the relevance of the op, my secret way of giving up pot.

I moved from the UK to Turkey, and read Midnight Express on the flight.


Worked like a charm. The reality is somewhat less unforgiving over here, but the risks of getting hold of it and keeping it around waaaaaay outweigh an occaisional spliff. Pity, I was really good at rolling 3-rizla specials. :D
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Re: 2 months--no drugs or alcohol

Postby gib » Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:52 am

Arcturus Descending wrote:I think that it would be both, gib if something is being used as a form of meditation. I do not think that you can dismiss the activity itself and only place the emphasis on the mindfulness. I am very mindful and focused when I type up a set of interrogatories but I do not consider that to be a form of meditation.


Then you must think it's not just being mindful in your activities that makes for meditation, but something in the activity as well. What do you think makes an activity meditation (besides mindfulness).

Arcturus Descending wrote:
I think that beats sitting in the lotus position doing nothing.


Why do you assume that nothing is being done or happening as they sit in that lotus position?


idunno. Maybe there's a lot going on. I just think it's boring is all. It's a personal preference. Pay it no mind.

Arcturus Descending wrote:
Meaning to me is the emotional and also perhaps intellectual sense (for lack of a better word) which is derived from how our senses are influenced by and interpret the world around us. It depends on who we are as individuals.


That makes sense out of how others seem to use the word "meaning" as well. They seem to mean: emotionally fulfilling. (Is it always fulfillment?) But in that case, doing dishes is hardly meaningful at all. ;)

Arcturus Descending wrote:I had a moment a few years back where I feel I had a moment of enlightenment. It really almost felt to me like "a bright light went on" though I realize that one did not. Do you know where it came from? I accidentally stepped in some pretty thick mud while out walking in the part and it was not so easy to pull out of it. In that instant, it came to me and I laughed out loud. Of course, I do think that it came to me as a result of a process which had been going on in mind for awhile.


There was a time in my youth when a part of me thought I was enlightened. Drugs will do that to you. I knew people who were overcoming with such delusions of grandeur from drugs that they thought they were prophets, sent by God. I was never that bad, but my experiences with drugs were so bizarre and warped, they gave me plenty of material with which to build a theory of consciousness (yes, the same one we've discussed numerous times). It turned out to be eerily similar to many Eastern philosophies and religions, Buddhism in particular; it didn't take much, therefore, for me to entertain the idea that I had become "enlightened" to the truth--very much in the Eastern sense--and I didn't even have to account for it by heightened intelligence or personal greatest--it was the drugs!!!--who knows how drugs can affect the mind and the human spirit--it's not unheard of for drugs to bring "spiritual awakening" to people--but I was young and naive, and way too cloud bound; today I look back on it and I see a couple things: 1) a good theory, and 2) drug induced flights of fancy, delusions of grandeur. That's not a recipe for enlightenment. I might even need to let go of one or both to truly find enlightenment. I certainly wasn't at peace, and I certainly didn't understand the world as an emptiness, or a non-being, certainly not the 'I' as illusory. I certainly didn't see the world in that mystical way those rare enlightened ones seem to see it, except maybe theoretically. I don't think I was enlightened, but I do think I was on a very different and unique spiritual path. But I have since come back down to Earth to join the living. :D
My thoughts | My art | My music | My poetry

In fact, the idea that there's more differences between groups than there is between individuals is actually the fundamental racist idea.
- Jordan Peterson

Here's a good rule of thumb for politics--attribute everything to stupidity unless you can prove malice.
- Ben Shapiro

right outta high school i tried to get a job as a proctologist but i couldn't find an opening.
- promethean75

Ahh... gib, zombie universes are so last year! I’m doing hyper dimensional mirror realities now.
- Ecmandu
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Re: 2 months--no drugs or alcohol

Postby Arcturus Descending » Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:30 pm

Tab wrote:Yup, ex-TV head guy here.


Never mind. I now see that that is a raven. Where is its wing man?

Do you ever take the time to observe the ravens?
"Look closely. The beautiful may be small."


"Two things fill the mind with ever new and increasing admiration and awe, the oftener and more steadily we reflect on them: the starry heavens above me and the moral law within me."


“Whereas the beautiful is limited, the sublime is limitless, so that the mind in the presence of the sublime, attempting to imagine what it cannot, has pain in the failure but pleasure in contemplating the immensity of the attempt.”

Immanuel Kant
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Re: 2 months--no drugs or alcohol

Postby Tab » Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:56 pm

Not really, I see them while I wait with my daughter for her school bus, and when I walk home from work. I know they're said to be one of the cleverest birds.
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Re: 2 months--no drugs or alcohol

Postby Fixed Cross » Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:01 am

An uncle, or semi-uncle or I don't know, a family member of mine is moving to Istanbul as a reporter, correspondent. He doesn't speak Turkish but has a lot of experience reporting in the region.
Long ago he was offered the Washington desk but his kids didn't want to move to the US. I hope Turkey is good to him. Good to know there's lots of ravens there.
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