2 months--no drugs or alcohol

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Re: 2 months--no drugs or alcohol

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Mon Dec 09, 2019 5:19 am

In experiments where mice are hooked on morphine, they eventually stop eating alltogether and just go for the morphine all the time. And die. Does that sound like power not to to you?
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Re: 2 months--no drugs or alcohol

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Mon Dec 09, 2019 5:21 am

But even with such a clear example, you would not understand it. Only an addict would. And that's fine, we don't ask you to. But that's why addicts are treated like shit.

Can you choose not to take a shit?

Experiments indicate the urge to do drugs in an addict is 10x stronger than the urge to drink way-ter.

To explain how some, like Gib, ALLEGEDLY spend up to 1 1/2 dry, my therapist used to sy: yeah but a smoker can go on an 8 hour flight and not even feel a craving. Because he knows, as soon as that bitch lands, he's smoking half a pack right there.
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Re: 2 months--no drugs or alcohol

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Mon Dec 09, 2019 5:31 am

But he's already decided, he's not plotting to or considering, he already in his mind is set upon, to do amphetamines (that's what ADD medication is).

Some people are genetically wired in such a way as that they can spend a whole year doing morphine every day and, even though they will have physical withdrawal after, they will be fine quitting. It just, their system isn't affected. Something in how genes make a brain in addicts makes it so that as soon as it understands that it can be at once flooded with that amount of neurotransmitters, nothing less will do. Literally. You understand this philosophically. But not... physically. Treatment has been developed to deal with this, but I won't go into it. There's no cheating treatment.
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Re: 2 months--no drugs or alcohol

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Mon Dec 09, 2019 5:33 am

Here's the kicker, and in some place deep down all addicts know this: it is not that your life is fucked so you do drugs. It is that you make sure your life is fucked so that you can do drugs. The drugs are the deciding element. Drugs are simply more important. There is not even a vaguely close second.
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Re: 2 months--no drugs or alcohol

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Mon Dec 09, 2019 5:36 am

We are children of the Earf.
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Re: 2 months--no drugs or alcohol

Postby gib » Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:18 am

Fixed Cross,

Fixed Cross wrote:Around what time did you begin to feel what you now consider the most profound changes?
Can you describe them?


I guess that would be my struggles at ATB, especially being canned. At that point, I was more than a year into drug abstinence, and so I figured: this has to be the ADD/SCT. More recently however, I've been wondering if it's the fact that I'm selling myself as a senior developer and I prove to be a disappointment to my employers when they find out I'm not quite at that level; I should be a senior, though, as I've been doing this for over 15 years; Maybe the ADD has been holding me back from gaining the appropriate expertise. It is considered a learning disability after all. And I'm sure the drugs didn't help.

I knew I had ADD since grade 3, and SCT is something I learned about much later, but still when I was doing drugs and alcohol. The real switch in my mind came when I got canned, though. I realized that quitting the drugs and alcohol has done nothing to ameliorate my job situation, and so the ADD/SCT must be playing a much stronger role than I thought.

Fixed Cross wrote:Youll get to the dark either way though. A junkie simply finds it in the filthy death he knows he is heading for...


True, he doesn't choose it, he just doesn't have the strength to avoid it.

Fixed Cross wrote:Surely, but I contend that this lies beyond the "madness" I reference. Of course I am talking about shamanic madness, not psychosis. Madness as in the loss of continuity of consciousness, which allows nature to reprogram herself.


I don't have much experience with Shamanism or its madness, but what you say makes sense. If what you're going for with drugs is that kind of madness, then shamanic madness might well serve as a substitute. The deep fulfillment I mention probably doesn't (unless that's what the drugs did for you--give you a false sense of fulfillment), but it can be enough for one to say: why would I risk losing this by doing drugs?

Fixed Cross wrote:Im not so sure if we are really more addicted necessarily to life than to what the drug gives - I take drug-suicides, around a few of which Ive unfortunately grown up, to be reaching for - here it comes - value, which seems to such people to be lost in life - or fundamentally negative in life - and in some figment of the hearts mind, some hope they reach for.


Oh, for sure! Drugs can give us experiences that we end up valuing far more than anything life could offer us. But they need something to start with, something natural to life itself and then amplify it ten-fold.

Fixed Cross wrote:Will and representation.
I go by that book.
Did you read it? No.
Schopenhauer is good for raw souls.
The fever I had while I read it - only one other writer ever managed that. WF Hermans, a Netherlandic Existentialist, -Nietzschean novelist. I could never put his books down, I read them in a fever, not remembering specific content, just a state of very explicit existence. Like sitting on a large hot rock in a shadowless summer for hours. "Nooit Meer Slapen ", never sleep again.
Singular, monadic existence.
Beyond logic, far beyond telos. Happiness as a form of madness, fever, hallucination - happiness as a knowing of the deceptive mechanisms of which ones mind is made - a refusal to trust them, yet a complete acceptance of them.


Something that can be brought back to sober reality. It's uncannily similar to the teachings of Eastern philosophy.

Fixed Cross wrote:No, one must become greater.
Drugs are means to self-overcoming. One can overcome the self by becoming ruined, but also by becoming a ... destroyer, of sorts.


Ah, so to become greater than you ever were even with the help of drugs. <-- That certainly is a holy grail if ever there was one.

Fixed Cross wrote:Gib - as I read Pezers posts, I realize Im talking about another type of addiction, I have never been in scenes of amphetamines.

My posts can serve as some abstract context, not as concrete advice. Okay.


Sure! Point taken. Amphetamines can be abused just as much as any other drugs (AFAIK), and the potential for addiction is there all the same (I think). I've been taking it for 3 days so far. It's helping with the moodiness and fatigue, maybe a bit of self-control. Not so much the cognitive deficiencies that come with ADD, but that's just a subjective perspective. Will have to discuss with my therapist.

Fixed Cross wrote:I can mostly congratulate you on your accomplishment. 1.5 years is a lot longer than you set out for.


Yes, originally I wanted to do a year, but I wanted one full year of detachment from anything holding me back from reaching my full potential, and that included my book. I finally published my book on Dec 5 2018, which is why the 1 year really began then. I'm still holding fast to a commitment not to do the drugs which were actually harming me (alcohol, caffeine, and cannabinoids) with no expiry except maybe retirement.

Fixed Cross wrote:Gib didn't seem to value mine much, where as I was writing I had the impression it would be otherwise.


Nonsense! I value your posts plenty! But like I said, I'm busy with stuff and can't keep up. So I have to be frugal.

Zero_Sum,

Zero_Sum wrote:Merry X-Mas Gib!


Merry X-Mas to you too my fascist friend! Good to see you still kicking around. How are you and Wendy? How goes the fight to tear down the fabric of modern society? I rarely frequent ILP anymore--just not the same without the drugs--so please tell me how things have been here.

Pedro,

Pedro I Rengel wrote:What's the difference between my 5 consecutive short and medium posts, and you guys's interminable single posts that take up half a page?


Nothing. I just wanted to reply to your posts and found that you posted again right before I was ready to hit the submit button. I said *ugh*. I want to be thorough in reading everyone's posts and being sure to reply where appropriate. It kinda seemed like you were on a never-ending roll. :lol: But even if you wrote all those in a notepad file and posted only when you were sure you had nothing more to say, I'd still have difficulty keeping up.

Pedro I Rengel wrote:Also, I never said I didn't care. You said that. Remember?


A long time ago, you said:

Pedro I Rengel wrote:Who said I want to win people over?

Your life is your problem, not mine.


Then I said:

gib wrote:Really? And I thought you cared.


And then you said:

Pedro I Rengel wrote:It is you that has to care about himself.


Pedro I Rengel wrote:But I care as a fellow addict, not as someone with any particular personal attachment to you.


Thank God!

Pedro I Rengel wrote:There are no ex-addicts. Like there are no ex-diabetics. What it is.


I know, but that's just a word game. You mean something different by it than what I mean. You mean that addicts will always have an addictive personality (or perhaps, the potential for the drug abuse to be reawakened at the slightest trigger). I mean, addicts can commit themselves to not taking drugs (successfully!). I take that as obvious, and that both meanings are valid in their own contexts. And there's certainly a time and place for each. At an AA meeting, calling yourself an ex-addict means you're in denial. Calling yourself an ex-addict to a girl you're trying to impress, however, is just honesty--you're telling her you used to do drugs but you don't anymore. Can you imagine the miscommunication if you told her you were a drug addict? Try explaining that to her after she walks away.

Pedro I Rengel wrote:To explain how some, like Gib, ALLEGEDLY spend up to 1 1/2 dry, my therapist used to sy: yeah but a smoker can go on an 8 hour flight and not even feel a craving. Because he knows, as soon as that bitch lands, he's smoking half a pack right there.

But he's already decided, he's not plotting to or considering, he already in his mind is set upon, to do amphetamines (that's what ADD medication is).


Look, Pedro, if you're going to insist that there's no difference whatsoever between taking prescribed medication to help with ADD and a junkie feeding his addiction by shooting up, then you're living in a bubble that I can't pop, nor will I expend the energy to try. Let's just agree to disagree, shall we? I'd tell you to get out of my thread, but I know I can't stop you from posting. So I'm just going to have to tolerate your annoying judgements and misconceptions of my life choices.

I'll tell you one thing though: that itch I mention? The I-told-you-so one, seems to be the only thing driving you in this thread. I don't think you care for me at all. You come in acting all altruistic, with noble intentions, taking the higher road, but when it comes down to it, I'd say you're jealous. You see a man who has done what you could never do, not alone. I suspect this is especially stinging to you because, like all addicts, you had to turn to something else to fill the void that drugs once filled, and that seems to be this AA recovery cloud you're riding high on. It means everything to you--your world, your self-worth, your identity--and you can only feel good about yourself if you can play the part of the wise seasoned veteran, the one who has graduated to a level of maturity from which he can impart wisdom to those struggling along the path he once walked. You need us in order to give your life meaning. So when I come along and don't fit your rigid preconception about how drug addicts are supposed to behave, how they're supposed to feel, what their psychology is made of, etc., you don't know what to do except to doubt the veracity of my words and construe taking care of myself with ADD medication to be the equivalent of a junkie shooting up. This is about you, you're need to re-validate yourself. Your words are not that of sound advise, they are the cries of neuroticism. You may be clean, but in the words of Random Factor, "something is not done with you."
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Re: 2 months--no drugs or alcohol

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Mon Dec 09, 2019 3:04 pm

I don't expect you to believe anything I say or take it at face value. It is simply my duty as an addict who has undergone treatment, to make sure you heard it.
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Re: 2 months--no drugs or alcohol

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Mon Dec 09, 2019 3:15 pm

Worth noting that a non-addict would have not taken offense at anything I said.

"Calling yourself an ex-addict to a girl you're trying to impress, however, is just honesty--you're telling her you used to do drugs but you don't anymore. Can you imagine the miscommunication if you told her you were a drug addict? Try explaining that to her after she walks away."

I told a girl I am an addict. This was after she noticed how I freaked out every time booze made an appearance (I was in my second year of recovery, but it still irks me). Trust me, I did not say ex-addict. If I'm an ex-addict, why should I be scared? Tricks the Dwarf plays. Anyway, I had to peel her off me.

Like I said, the shame is the first thing to attack.
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Re: 2 months--no drugs or alcohol

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Mon Dec 09, 2019 3:17 pm

She even said, "don't you mean ex-addict?" And I said "nono, addict, addict."
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Re: 2 months--no drugs or alcohol

Postby gib » Mon Dec 09, 2019 5:38 pm

Pedro I Rengel wrote:I don't expect you to believe anything I say or take it at face value.


Yeah, I don't believe I cheated on my year and a half off because, you know, I was there.

Pedro I Rengel wrote:Worth noting that a non-addict would have not taken offense at anything I said.


Of course, he wouldn't! What you said wouldn't be about him! (or you wouldn't say it.)

Pedro I Rengel wrote:She even said, "don't you mean ex-addict?" And I said "nono, addict, addict."


Dude, she obviously inferred you were a recovering alcoholic from the context. D'uh! She saw you freaking out over the alcohol, probably noticed you weren't drinking. Put 2 and 2 together, and voila.

Try this: go somewhere where you can pick up girls. Walk up to one and start a conversation. Tell her you're an alcoholic or drug addict. Don't set it up so that she can infer from the context that you're recovering. Report back about what happens.
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Re: 2 months--no drugs or alcohol

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:39 pm

You can pick up a girl almost anywhere. A bar is probably not the best place if you're trying to stay sober. Maybe don't lead with "I'm an addict." Fuck problem is it of hers anyway?
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Re: 2 months--no drugs or alcohol

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:50 pm

You'd be surprised though. That's probably the #1 concern of all addicts anywhere. You work through it but, again, I'm not really an addiction therapist.

Suffice it to say that girls are on the look-out for confident guys, and they exist by the bundles. Also that once you start recovery, you reassess how important picking up girls really is. I mean I've done it. But I no longer have the privilege of picking up things, I gotta deal with fucking humans.

Truth be told though, it has never been so easy as since I have been sober. Something about a man that ruthlessly knows who they are and where they stand. Beer can only compete with that if the girl is an addict too, and then it's not really you she's after.
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Re: 2 months--no drugs or alcohol

Postby Fixed Cross » Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:59 pm

Pedro I Rengel wrote:In experiments where mice are hooked on morphine, they eventually stop eating alltogether and just go for the morphine all the time. And die. Does that sound like power not to to you?

Hahah yes, thats an excellent example. It tells me foremost: it sucks to be a mouse. There is nothing for them to go back to. The mouse is simply glad to be rid of himself. It aint got spine, no spunk.

A human can go either way.

VO gives a better explanation of this than WtP.

As Zauwelios already observed constantly, which is true, in conscious beings it is rather the feeling of power they're after, not actual objective power. Which is why drugs are done, but in general why many things are done.

So these mice, the morphine rid them of the feeling of being a mere mouse... haha. What a shitty thing to be, a mouse. Fuck mice. I feel sad even to kill them.

Anyway VO - you just observe the mouse is valuing some thing, the morphine and the relief it gives, and because it values this, over what it can value in terms of its self-valuing, it stops self-valuing i.e. being.
It values the finite morphine-experience over the experience which can perpetuate itself.
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Re: 2 months--no drugs or alcohol

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:49 pm

Yeah, no doubt, that's the treatment addicts tend to get from the world at large. Woe would be us if we valued ourselves based on it! And verily, woe thus are most addicts.
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Re: 2 months--no drugs or alcohol

Postby Fixed Cross » Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:06 pm

Anyone who manages to self-value (not to be confused with valuing a self - we don't believe in selves, do we - its the valuing which values it-self, not its self) the drugs is not to be woed, this person has heart.

The point Im making is, mice are too weak to be doing drugs. They cant "recover". There is no such thing as a recovering mouse.
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Re: 2 months--no drugs or alcohol

Postby Fixed Cross » Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:17 pm

As I read it all it is not the urge to use the drug that makes the mouse and the weakling, it is the fact that mice are content to just dissolve their existence.
Human drug addicts can reach a rock bottom level where their conscious self valuing, or WtP, kicks in, and forces them to go into an ordeal rather than to give up.

Whatever is lost by then should pale in comparison to the strength to alter ones course.
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Re: 2 months--no drugs or alcohol

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:17 pm

I bet you could recover a mouse.
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Re: 2 months--no drugs or alcohol

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:18 pm

I have yet to meet a weak addict. That's the irony.
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Re: 2 months--no drugs or alcohol

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:19 pm

Give me 100 addicts and I will take France.

Well you gotta recover them first I guess. Too disorganized if not.
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Re: 2 months--no drugs or alcohol

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:21 pm

My honest to goodness diagnosis? The world as it is configured is not enough of a challenge for these souls made of steel.
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Re: 2 months--no drugs or alcohol

Postby Fixed Cross » Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:22 pm

Pedro I Rengel wrote:I have yet to meet a weak addict. That's the irony.

But thats the whole point I'm making.

I know some people who tried mild drugs and completely freaked out. You've already have to be relatively strong to even endure drugs. Let alone to go into it properly, and let alone to get out of it.
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Re: 2 months--no drugs or alcohol

Postby Fixed Cross » Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:24 pm

Pedro I Rengel wrote:My honest to goodness diagnosis? The world as it is configured is not enough of a challenge for these souls made of steel.

Completely agree.

Almost everybody is an addict. Most people, if you pull away their New York times and their Starbucks latte they have no idea what to do with themselves. Ive rarely met a person who had gotten into drugs who hadn't won a great deal of interesting experience on its account.
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Re: 2 months--no drugs or alcohol

Postby Fixed Cross » Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:26 pm

Why do you think I ever did drugs? To make life easier??? Hahahahahaha
If thats what I wanted out of it Id have left it all alone after I tried my first bit of weed.
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Re: 2 months--no drugs or alcohol

Postby Fixed Cross » Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:31 pm

Gib -

"Ah, so to become greater than you ever were even with the help of drugs. <-- That certainly is a holy grail if ever there was one."

Yes.
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Re: 2 months--no drugs or alcohol

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:32 pm

If Nietzsche is to be taken seriously, perhaps the place to find the strongest men is among those called the weakest. The most reviled.

Nandayo.
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