2 months--no drugs or alcohol

This is the place to shave off that long white beard and stop being philosophical; a forum for members to just talk like normal human beings.

Re: 2 months--no drugs or alcohol

Postby gib » Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:00 pm

Fixed Cross wrote:Hey Gib, its a pretty interesting ordeal youve got going here. I appreciate that you took the time to see this through and report on it. Its science, if nothing else.


Well, as scientific as one can get in these matters. Make no mistake, I'm steeped in bias and prejudice, preconceptions and misconceptions. How can one not be in this kind of affair? But I think there is something to having a scientific attitude, or trying to at least. That is, an attitude of trying to be as objective as one can, and relying heavily on experimentation for your conclusions. Time is key too. That's why my two month stints were never satisfactory. A year and a half is a lot more time, enough to allow certain persistent patterns to emerge and be noticed.

Fixed Cross wrote:You take drugs because they genuinely expand experience.


That's one of the more noble reasons, but it is unfortunately far too often not the main reason people do drugs. Most the time, people do drugs to get a buzz, to feel good. And yes, the experience of intense euphoria might count as an expansion of experience well beyond the normal range of sober brains, but if this is all you do, it gets old quickly. The continual practice of expanding experience requires expansion in different directions--one time into euphoria, the next into visuals, another into profound insight, and even into dark hellish places. <-- The willingness to delve into hell as a means of exploring experience is what sets apart the men from the boys, the true psychonaughts from the junkies. I always bring up salvia divinorum as the prime example--an altered state of consciousness for sure, yet anything but pleasant.

Fixed Cross wrote:No need to assume that experience simply shrinks back to its original form and is content with that.


Right. You can't just have an experience and expect it not to change you. You remember it even after it fades from consciousness.

Fixed Cross wrote:One can never simply correct a drug-influenced physiology back into place - one can do without drugs very well if one simply has a reason for the endorphins to activate without them. These aren't going to be knitting circles or yoga classes, nor self-disciplined karate or something - they need to be shamanic, "crazy" - one simply needs the craziness to continue without the drugs somehow.


Yes, or perhaps deep fulfillment.

Fixed Cross wrote:We do use drugs for a reason. We evolved on them. Addictions are just addiction to a certain evolutionary mechanism. DNA gets addicted. DNA can get us out.


We're addicted to everything we need to survive--more than we can ever be to drugs--we're addicted to food, to water, to the air we breath. Drugs hijack the areas of the brain that are addicted to these things and replace them.

Fixed Cross wrote:The holy grail of the recovering addict is to restore the ego, and I believe the ego can only be built from the ground up.


So what does this mean? That one cannot rebuild one's ego based on prior drug experiences? That one must be "reborn" in a sense, as though he completely forgets his prior drug experiences?
My thoughts | My art | My music | My poetry

In fact, the idea that there's more differences between groups than there is between individuals is actually the fundamental racist idea.
- Jordan Peterson

right outta high school i tried to get a job as a proctologist but i couldn't find an opening.
- promethean75

Ahh... gib, zombie universes are so last year! I’m doing hyper dimensional mirror realities now.
- Ecmandu
User avatar
gib
resident exorcist
 
Posts: 8906
Joined: Sat May 27, 2006 10:25 pm
Location: in your mom

Re: 2 months--no drugs or alcohol

Postby gib » Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:15 pm

Pedro I Rengel wrote:"What I want is to improve my life, not to prove anything to anybody,"

As long as this is true, I think you're on the right path. Unfortunately though, for what I am offering, you have to get to admit that before improving your life, it is about stopping the destruction. It has to hurt, you have to allow yourself to feel the extent of it. Because the means are so harsh, self-improvement is not really nearly enough of a reason. To begin with.

Shalom


While I appreciate your words, I'm not sure I understand them.

What do you mean "self-improvement is not really nearly enough of a reason"? What other reason do you have in mind? Do you mean self-improvement is not motivation enough?

And while I agree that stopping the destruction comes first on the path to self-improvement, I'm not sure whether you're insinuating that I'm not doing that. (I feel that I am; I'm not sure how it could be otherwise). And you said "for what I am offering"... what are you offering that I'm not taking? We both seem to be talking about self-improvement. Are you offering a different kind of self-improvement? A different path to it? One that requires the admission that stopping the destruction has to come first? As though one could alternatively walk the path to self-improvement without this admission?

^ I'm confused. :-k

Pedro I Rengel wrote:At my rehab, we call him the Enano. I guess that's literally midget, but it also has all the connotations of dwarf and leprechaun and troll. I guess in our case the real translation would be gnome.

Sometimes he's pale and horrible, more often he is cute and friendly.

That you have pinpointed him speaks of an acute philosophical mind and is an important step, too. He's a thirsty bastard, he is.


Pedro I Rengel wrote:I'll even give you a sneak peek (to our thing): the entire thing is about becoming friends with him. Learning to pamper him. For you cannot ever, ever defeat him. He is stronger than you. No matter what, if there is ever a choice between what he says and something else, it will always be what he says. You can test this out. And perhaps ask yourself: was it the king that decided you have ADD and need medication for it, or was it Wormtoungue? I mean I think that's kind of rude, calling him that. But who's idea was it really?

And a warning: if you truly have been abstaining, to some degree, for 1 1/2 years, he will be very thirsty. And he is insidious, it might not happen the first or third time you drink or do some drug. Like amphetamines.


Are you sure we're talking about the same thing?

Yes, every drug user will attest to an inner "demon" that drives and haunts him, but my metaphor of Wormtongue and King Theoden is very specific and grounded on something very concrete: neurology. It's a metaphor for the primitive brain (specifically the amygdala) and the rational brain (the frontal cortex). Neurologists know that these two brain areas play off each other and antagonize each other. The primitive brain is our emotional brain. It's the animal brain. It runs on impulses, instinct, and immediate gratification, and it is built to react to negative/dangerous circumstances. This is why it is associated with negative emotions: fear, anger, and depression. It is responsible for the fight/flight response. The rational brain on the other hand is the thinking part of the brain. It's responsible for our rationality and logic, and tends to be associated more with positive emotion. We are calm when we think with our rational brain. These two brains antagonize each other. They bear an inhibitory relation to each other. This is why one's mind goes blank when overcome with fear. That's the primitive brain turning off rational thinking. This is why we do and say things we later regret when we're angry. This is the primitive brain suppression our better judgement and saying irrational and emotional things. This is why when we're under high degrees of stress, we make poor decisions and bone-head mistakes.

The Wormtongue/Theoden metaphor also stands for the ADD/SCT brain specifically (or at least, my brain specifically). The ADD/SCT brain, at least the kind I have, tends to have a weak rational brain and a strong primitive brain. Thus the Wormtongue side of one's self tends to dominate most of the time. The Theoden side of one's self, in turn, tends to be stuck in a fog most of the time. In reality, it's not as black and white as that, but it is closer to that than the average person.

Anyway, yes, the Wormtongue side tends to feel like a kind of "demon" or "gremlin", and with child-like impulses and the animal-like need for immediate gratification, it would crave the kind of reinforcing stimulation that drugs can provide. If it wasn't for the rational brain exerting it's dominance, one would just give in to it.

Yes, you can never kill it (short of going for a lobotomy). It is part of your being. But I don't know if it's always stronger than one's self. It is a part of one's self, so its strength is your strength. The rational brain is also a part of one's self. Whatever strength it can muster against the primitive brain is also your strength. If you tie this into neurology, like I did above, you can make the case that it depends on the person. Different brain parts will have different strengths from individual to individual. There are tons of people who have incredible self-control and powerful positive thinking. They're rational brains are far more developed than their primitive brains. Even with normal people (or just myself), it depends on the environment they're in and what's going on in their lives at the moment. When things are calm and everything's going OK, the rational brain dominates. The primitive brain rests. And then it also depends on what the primitive brain wants. If I'm trying to diet but I'm hungry, my primitive brain might twist my rubber arm and convince me to stop at the nearest KFC. But once inside, I'm not going to grab the food of the people sitting next to me. I'll wait patiently for my order. The rational brain will always exert some level of control depending on what the primitive brain is asking of it.

I think I agree, however, that it might be a better strategy to pamper the demon rather than fight against him. But that's tricky. The demon is like a little child, demanding candy without finishing his vegetables. As a parent, you don't want to give into the child and just give him candy before he finishes his vegetables, but you want to do it in a loving, nurturing way, a way that sooths the child and makes him feel cared for rather than tyrannized. But how do you do that? As a parent, I can tell you it's extremely difficult to always find a way to avoid a fight with your child while at the same time be responsible and loving. Overall, however, there is usually a clear "right" decision. If it's a choice between letting my child have candy without finishing his vegetables and insisting that he finish his vegetables before getting candy, clearly I'm going to choose the latter. It's the responsible thing to do. It's what's best for the child. Just the same, there is usually a clear "right" decision when taking care of one's self. I won't always know how to appease my primitive brain when it wants drugs (or anything) without giving into its demands, but clearly to give into its demands would not be responsible or caring of myself.

"was it the king that decided you have ADD and need medication for it, or was it Wormtoungue?"

Neither! It was doctors, several of them. I was diagnosed with ADD in grade 3, went on ritalin. It worked! At least as far as my education went. I took a test at the beginning of 2016. It showed I had it. My therapist today thinks I still have the condition (and typically, one has the condition all one's life). I exhibit all the symptoms. Others with ADD who tell their stories match my own experiences exactly. So you tell me. Is that Theodon style thinking or Wormtongue. You think I just convinced myself I have ADD so that I could do drugs? Have I been convincing myself since grade 3? Did I predict back then that I would become a druggie and would need something to excuse my use of amphetamines? I think you need to believe this. You appear to reeeally have the I-told-you-so itch. The proof is in the pudding. We'll see if it works or not.

"I mean I think that's kind of rude, calling him that."

Talk to J. R. R. Tolkien. That's the character's name!

Pedro I Rengel wrote:if you truly have been abstaining, to some degree, for 1 1/2 years...


Ha! You just can't believe it, can you?

Pedro I Rengel wrote:Btw, it is possible I am arrogant. Sobriety doesn't cure that, unfortunately.


No, but you can.

Pedro I Rengel wrote:I know it's unlikely, but if you tell me the city you live in, I can tell you which rehab I would recommend, just so you have it in your records.


Calgary.
My thoughts | My art | My music | My poetry

In fact, the idea that there's more differences between groups than there is between individuals is actually the fundamental racist idea.
- Jordan Peterson

right outta high school i tried to get a job as a proctologist but i couldn't find an opening.
- promethean75

Ahh... gib, zombie universes are so last year! I’m doing hyper dimensional mirror realities now.
- Ecmandu
User avatar
gib
resident exorcist
 
Posts: 8906
Joined: Sat May 27, 2006 10:25 pm
Location: in your mom

Re: 2 months--no drugs or alcohol

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:55 pm

"Ha! You just can't believe it, can you?"

No, I've seen it. It's just very rare. It is true about 3% of the times it is claimed. Some kind of antidepressant, prescribed by a doc of course, is the norm.

Honest to goodness, this is the only one I can honestly recommend. It's not in Alberta, but it's in Canada. Lot of people out there with a lot of bullshit and very expensive feel-good programs that will be better at taking your money than keeping you sober. Also, listen, don't read about it. If you ever personally decide you need treatment, you have all the internet to research and discover. Keep this one as a "fuck it I'll trust Pedro or not" kind of thing. Quitting drugs is not an intellectual thing, and will be actually extremely intellectually offensive. What we were talking about before, yes, the only reason you would put yourself through it is that you refuse to take another second of this shit. If you need help paying for the travel, and even for the the rehab, I will help.

I did not on purpose choose a place very close to where I live, I swear to God. I think maybe the further east you move, the less prone to fucking native american holistic healing with jacuzzis you will be.

Anyway, like I said. Don't look too much. If you ever want to, now you have it in your records.

https://www.andyshouse.com
User avatar
Pedro I Rengel
Philosopher
 
Posts: 4105
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:55 pm

Re: 2 months--no drugs or alcohol

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:57 pm

Here's all I will say about it and why I think, if ever you find yourself needing it, you can trust it: it is run by an addict (25 years sober).

You do not want to be lectured or coddled or whatever by some fucking weirdo psychologist. It takes one to know one. I mean this one is a psychologist, but after the fact.
User avatar
Pedro I Rengel
Philosopher
 
Posts: 4105
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:55 pm

Re: 2 months--no drugs or alcohol

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:59 pm

No, I guess they do hire non-addicts to help. But listen, nothing is perfect, and it is run by an addict, that is the part that really matters, the non-negotiable. Think about how people all your life who aren't addicts have looked at you or thought about you. Just because they study psychology and want to be heroes doesn't change that. You gotta have an addict.
User avatar
Pedro I Rengel
Philosopher
 
Posts: 4105
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:55 pm

Re: 2 months--no drugs or alcohol

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Sun Dec 08, 2019 11:02 pm

In a pinch, a public rehab will do.

Even AA will do if you have the stones.
User avatar
Pedro I Rengel
Philosopher
 
Posts: 4105
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:55 pm

Re: 2 months--no drugs or alcohol

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Sun Dec 08, 2019 11:09 pm

Doing research, I realized I had considered applying for a job there when I first got back to Canada. But helping people in that way is more of a life mission than a job, what most people would call a career. And I have other things I want to accomplish that I wouldn't be able to dedicate time to. I think I would make a kick-ass therapist. Anyway I consider it noble work.
User avatar
Pedro I Rengel
Philosopher
 
Posts: 4105
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:55 pm

Re: 2 months--no drugs or alcohol

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Sun Dec 08, 2019 11:17 pm

I don't know how far I should go, I truly am not a professional, but I will say this: if it is, like you say, a more primitive part of the brain, it obviously then cannot be addressed rationally.

Only in a moment of despair will you accept this option. Usually a wife threatens to leave, bankruptcy, debt. Just know that when that moment comes, there is a way out. But if you think about it, you keep losing jobs, you are totally alienated from your family, you feel empty or hopeless. These are as good a reason as any.

"I think I agree, however, that it might be a better strategy to pamper the demon rather than fight against him. But that's tricky. The demon is like a little child, demanding candy without finishing his vegetables"

What it asks is anesthetic, drugs. Even, if you are honest, astral travel. What it wants is something else, something you learn to give it in treatment. You learn to listen to it. "Ah, you old rascal, I see you there."

A lot of it is getting rid of the shame. The fuck are all these people you should feel ashamed towards? The fuck is so special about their lives?

some thoughts.
User avatar
Pedro I Rengel
Philosopher
 
Posts: 4105
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:55 pm

Re: 2 months--no drugs or alcohol

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Sun Dec 08, 2019 11:32 pm

gib wrote:
Pedro I Rengel wrote:Btw, it is possible I am arrogant. Sobriety doesn't cure that, unfortunately.


No, but you can.



One of the funnest parts of rehab was our director, one of the most arrogant men I know, yelling at us "HUMILITY GODDAMNIT!!"
User avatar
Pedro I Rengel
Philosopher
 
Posts: 4105
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:55 pm

Re: 2 months--no drugs or alcohol

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Sun Dec 08, 2019 11:33 pm

HAHAHAHAHAahahaha

Oh man.

Verily, the best part about rehab is you get to hang around a bunch of addicts.
User avatar
Pedro I Rengel
Philosopher
 
Posts: 4105
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:55 pm

Re: 2 months--no drugs or alcohol

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Sun Dec 08, 2019 11:37 pm

It also has a con college element, as I could probably start a relatively powerful gang with a few phone calls now if I set my mind to it.
User avatar
Pedro I Rengel
Philosopher
 
Posts: 4105
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:55 pm

Re: 2 months--no drugs or alcohol

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Sun Dec 08, 2019 11:51 pm

Pedro I Rengel wrote:A lot of it is getting rid of the shame. The fuck are all these people you should feel ashamed towards? The fuck is so special about their lives?


User avatar
Pedro I Rengel
Philosopher
 
Posts: 4105
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:55 pm

Re: 2 months--no drugs or alcohol

Postby Fixed Cross » Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:26 am

gib wrote:
Fixed Cross wrote:Hey Gib, its a pretty interesting ordeal youve got going here. I appreciate that you took the time to see this through and report on it. Its science, if nothing else.


Well, as scientific as one can get in these matters. Make no mistake, I'm steeped in bias and prejudice, preconceptions and misconceptions. How can one not be in this kind of affair? But I think there is something to having a scientific attitude, or trying to at least. That is, an attitude of trying to be as objective as one can, and relying heavily on experimentation for your conclusions. Time is key too. That's why my two month stints were never satisfactory. A year and a half is a lot more time, enough to allow certain persistent patterns to emerge and be noticed.

I bet.
Around what time did you begin to feel what you now consider the most profound changes?
Can you describe them?

Fixed Cross wrote:You take drugs because they genuinely expand experience.


That's one of the more noble reasons, but it is unfortunately far too often not the main reason people do drugs. Most the time, people do drugs to get a buzz, to feel good. And yes, the experience of intense euphoria might count as an expansion of experience well beyond the normal range of sober brains, but if this is all you do, it gets old quickly. The continual practice of expanding experience requires expansion in different directions--one time into euphoria, the next into visuals, another into profound insight, and even into dark hellish places. <-- The willingness to delve into hell as a means of exploring experience is what sets apart the men from the boys, the true psychonaughts from the junkies. I always bring up salvia divinorum as the prime example--an altered state of consciousness for sure, yet anything but pleasant.

Exactly.
Youll get to the dark either way though. A junkie simply finds it in the filthy death he knows he is heading for, a psychonaut must turn beyond any morals and end up mad or in philosophy.
(Allow me some rhetorical leeway here, its drugs)

Fixed Cross wrote:No need to assume that experience simply shrinks back to its original form and is content with that.


Right. You can't just have an experience and expect it not to change you. You remember it even after it fades from consciousness.

Yes, it simply alters the brain, forging neural pathways, habits of association, which are deeply below consciousness levels.

Fixed Cross wrote:One can never simply correct a drug-influenced physiology back into place - one can do without drugs very well if one simply has a reason for the endorphins to activate without them. These aren't going to be knitting circles or yoga classes, nor self-disciplined karate or something - they need to be shamanic, "crazy" - one simply needs the craziness to continue without the drugs somehow.


Yes, or perhaps deep fulfillment.

Surely, but I contend that this lies beyond the "madness" I reference. Of course I am talking about shamanic madness, not psychosis. Madness as in the loss of continuity of consciousness, which allows nature to reprogram herself.

Fixed Cross wrote:We do use drugs for a reason. We evolved on them. Addictions are just addiction to a certain evolutionary mechanism. DNA gets addicted. DNA can get us out.


We're addicted to everything we need to survive--more than we can ever be to drugs--we're addicted to food, to water, to the air we breath. Drugs hijack the areas of the brain that are addicted to these things and replace them.

Im not so sure if we are really more addicted necessarily to life than to what the drug gives - I take drug-suicides, around a few of which Ive unfortunately grown up, to be reaching for - here it comes - value, which seems to such people to be lost in life - or fundamentally negative in life - and in some figment of the hearts mind, some hope they reach for.

Whether theres any value there in reality doesn't change the fact that their valuing passed over the requirements of life and reached for something beyond.
Thats why I say the valuing is key, ontological ground, and the value is either there or not, is a projection.

Will and representation.
I go by that book.
Did you read it?
Schopenhauer is good for raw souls.
The fever I had while I read it - only one other writer ever managed that. WF Hermans, a Netherlandic Existentialist, -Nietzschean novelist. I could never put his books down, I read them in a fever, not remembering specific content, just a state of very explicit existence. Like sitting on a large hot rock in a shadowless summer for hours. "Nooit Meer Slapen ", never sleep again.
Singular, monadic existence.
Beyond logic, far beyond telos. Happiness as a form of madness, fever, hallucination - happiness as a knowing of the deceptive mechanisms of which ones mind is made - a refusal to trust them, yet a complete acceptance of them.

Fixed Cross wrote:The holy grail of the recovering addict is to restore the ego, and I believe the ego can only be built from the ground up.


So what does this mean? That one cannot rebuild one's ego based on prior drug experiences? That one must be "reborn" in a sense, as though he completely forgets his prior drug experiences?

No, one must become greater.
Drugs are means to self-overcoming. One can overcome the self by becoming ruined, but also by becoming a ... destroyer, of sorts.
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
- Thucydides
Image
BTL
User avatar
Fixed Cross
Doric Usurper
 
Posts: 9592
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:53 am
Location: the black ships

Re: 2 months--no drugs or alcohol

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:40 am

I do agree in this: what separates a party drug user, 90% of humanity, from an addict, is the religiosity of the experience. I too think it frivolous to use substances which for all but a blink of human existence were used only by high priests and considered actually above magic to have a nice laugh and a pleasant situation.

Human has been billions of years in the making, and seeing more of it is not a fucking Friday night with friends. Says I.

And, but yet, the destruction is there. You either want it, or not. You either consider your own life more important than proving a point, or not. But you do, because this whole thread is about that.

But addicts are one stubborn motherfucker.
User avatar
Pedro I Rengel
Philosopher
 
Posts: 4105
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:55 pm

Re: 2 months--no drugs or alcohol

Postby Fixed Cross » Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:41 am

A destroyer of stupidity and presumption, on a basic level.

A destroyer of sicknesses. The sicknesses of all our ignorant humans debilitations, which people call their minds. How I cringe at their regarding themselves as capable of reason -
the cold plasma of assumptions they skate around on must be cracked, if I am to have any fun.

Destroyer of wicked shit on a next level. The Soul as I know it is at the centre of all time at once, time frozen in lighting, violent, resplendent wheel of fortune. We can only create-onward.

I bit in a chickens spine once eating in a tapas bar, I looked at the thing I just took from mouth and saw the intricacy, the work of a billion years. Thats when I realized. What Im trying to tell you without forcing it, as it must be in your most experienced minds regions already presenting itself to you in some form, or it can not exist. I say: Learn not to discard these experienced regions; it is not they who produce the yearning. It is our love of what they produce, and the feeling that they are closed off from us without drugs, that produce the yearning.

Drugs are a shortcut to the soul, plain and simple. Mostly we aren't worthy of the soul when we take drugs, and so we are lowered to ourselves to make this apparent. We aren't worthy of it because we think it is a sin, a party-vice. But what we are doing is noble, manly. Before cocaine became illegal, all the scientific community were using it, now mostly financial elites do and cocaine and capital, thus crime and capital, practically coincide.

DNA was figured out on Acid, which is now illegal. Whoever made it illegal committed one of the gravest crimes ever in our species. No one has a prerogative to look down on drug-use, but the drug user himself - and of course he inevitably does. It is a humbling experience to be able to change ones disposition so completely by some simple cheap means. It puts things in perspective.
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
- Thucydides
Image
BTL
User avatar
Fixed Cross
Doric Usurper
 
Posts: 9592
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:53 am
Location: the black ships

Re: 2 months--no drugs or alcohol

Postby gib » Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:53 am

Pedro I Rengel wrote:"Ha! You just can't believe it, can you?"

No, I've seen it. It's just very rare. It is true about 3% of the times it is claimed. Some kind of antidepressant, prescribed by a doc of course, is the norm.


Ok, fine. Ha! you're skeptical.

Pedro I Rengel wrote:Honest to goodness, this is the only one I can honestly recommend. It's not in Alberta, but it's in Canada. Lot of people out there with a lot of bullshit and very expensive feel-good programs that will be better at taking your money than keeping you sober. Also, listen, don't read about it. If you ever personally decide you need treatment, you have all the internet to research and discover. Keep this one as a "fuck it I'll trust Pedro or not" kind of thing. Quitting drugs is not an intellectual thing, and will be actually extremely intellectually offensive. What we were talking about before, yes, the only reason you would put yourself through it is that you refuse to take another second of this shit. If you need help paying for the travel, and even for the the rehab, I will help.


Wow! That's incredibly generous of you. Thank you! And you pretend not to care. :)

Pedro I Rengel wrote:You do not want to be lectured or coddled or whatever by some fucking weirdo psychologist. It takes one to know one. I mean this one is a psychologist, but after the fact.


I agree. The current therapist I'm seeing is not an ex-addict (as far as I know), but I'm seeing her more for the ADD/SCT, and in that respect, she's not only a specialist, but she has it. It would be ideal if I could find a therapist in both, but that's an extremely rare bread. Know any recovering addicts and ADD specialists qualified to be therapists?

(For what it's worth, I did try to see a drug addiction therapist early in my journey, but he rejected me because he thought I had already past the point where I need help; he said his specialty was helping those who are currently struggling with drug/alcohol addiction.)

(Also for what it's worth, this addiction therapist encouraged me NOT to lump recreational drugs in the same category as prescription drugs; "taking anti-depressants is not the same as dropping acid," he said; so even with these specialists, they see the importance of prescription drugs.)

Pedro I Rengel wrote:Just because they study psychology and want to be heroes doesn't change that. You gotta have an addict.


Agreed with reservations, but do note: recovering addicts serving as therapists also study psychology and want to be heroes.

Pedro I rengel wrote:I don't know how far I should go, I truly am not a professional, but I will say this: if it is, like you say, a more primitive part of the brain, it obviously then cannot be addressed rationally.


Exactly! It doesn't have the capacity for it.

Pedro I Rengel wrote:Only in a moment of despair will you accept this option. Usually a wife threatens to leave, bankruptcy, debt. Just know that when that moment comes, there is a way out. But if you think about it, you keep losing jobs, you are totally alienated from your family, you feel empty or hopeless. These are as good a reason as any.


You mean me personally?

Prepare to be called arrogant again. I'm not alienated from my family. I have really good relations with my children, better now than ever. I don't get to see them all the time because my ex and I are separated, but I would hardly call that alienated. I have no doubt the separation had a lot to do with my drug/alcohol habbits (even though my ex never said it), but it was mutual. She had her own fair share of problems that I couldn't deal with. And even though I consider myself recovered now, on the right track with my life, I wouldn't take her back (no offense to her). I've enjoy life more as a bachelor than as a married man, so I call that an improvement. And as far as the losing jobs thing, I explicitely said in my posts that this happened during my 1 and a half years away from drugs and alcohol, and that it is obvious to me now that the main culprit is ADD/SCT. (Did you read any of what I wrote?). Same with the feeling of emptiness and hopelessness... that remains even while off the drugs and alcohol and has been shown to be a symptom of SCT. So yeah, it does come across as pretty arrogant that you think you know that these are caused by the drugs and alcohol. Project much?

(Unless, of course, you meant this in general, not me specifically.)

Pedro I Rengel wrote:What it asks is anesthetic, drugs. Even, if you are honest, astral travel. What it wants is something else, something you learn to give it in treatment. You learn to listen to it. "Ah, you old rascal, I see you there."


What it asks is immediate gratification. This *might* be drugs, but it's alive and well even in those who have never done drugs or alcohol. The reason children throw tantrums when we tell them to eat their vegetable before they get dessert is because they have a well developed primative brain long before they develop a rational brain. It's literally asking for the immediate gratification of dessert without earning it by eating vegetables. This is why I felt it important to be specific in what the Theoden/Wormtongue metaphor stood for: it represents neurological structures in the brain, structures which don't only react to cravings for drugs and alcohol. But yes, drugs and alcohol will definitely be one of the triggers if one has a long history of use.

Pedro I Rengel wrote:You either consider your own life more important than proving a point, or not. But you do, because this whole thread is about that.


I do what? This thread is a tool to help bolt down the commitment. Announcing a commitment at the top of a hill so all can hear it is a well known psychological tool for fortifying that commitment. Not sure what you meant.

BTW Pedro, you're an impulsive poster. Nothing wrong with that, but I feel bulldozed by your posts. I can't keep up. I won't let this be a distraction, so I'm not going to respond to everything you post.

Fixed Cross, I'll try to carry on our conversation, but like I said to Pedro, I don't want this to be a distraction (I've got a job interview to prepare for tomorrow). So I may or a may not, but I did read and appreciate your posts.
My thoughts | My art | My music | My poetry

In fact, the idea that there's more differences between groups than there is between individuals is actually the fundamental racist idea.
- Jordan Peterson

right outta high school i tried to get a job as a proctologist but i couldn't find an opening.
- promethean75

Ahh... gib, zombie universes are so last year! I’m doing hyper dimensional mirror realities now.
- Ecmandu
User avatar
gib
resident exorcist
 
Posts: 8906
Joined: Sat May 27, 2006 10:25 pm
Location: in your mom

Re: 2 months--no drugs or alcohol

Postby Fixed Cross » Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:59 am

Pedro I Rengel wrote:I do agree in this: what separates a party drug user, 90% of humanity, from an addict, is the religiosity of the experience. I too think it frivolous to use substances which for all but a blink of human existence were used only by high priests and considered actually above magic to have a nice laugh and a pleasant situation.

Human has been billions of years in the making, and seeing more of it is not a fucking Friday night with friends. Says I.

These first Friday nights were the SHIT though, the first year.
the second year some of them felt a little dragging.
the third year my friend threw himself out of the window and landed right there in the garden where we always smoked and had eaten shrooms the once.
Not so nice! As Borat would say.

And, but yet, the destruction is there. You either want it, or not. You either consider your own life more important than proving a point, or not.

Wow. Yeah, there is some hard truth here.
Proving a point to oneself mainly I suppose - this never had to do, whereas my dead friends all really very much did.
I already knew it was all bullshit except who and what you care about so much that you'll do your best on their account.

But you do, because this whole thread is about that.

But addicts are one stubborn motherfucker.

That is the nature of the beast. How do you say "one must be a toreador to overcome the stubborn motherfucker"? Tengo que eres un toreador para ... matar ... el caracho puta de toro?
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
- Thucydides
Image
BTL
User avatar
Fixed Cross
Doric Usurper
 
Posts: 9592
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:53 am
Location: the black ships

Re: 2 months--no drugs or alcohol

Postby Zero_Sum » Mon Dec 09, 2019 2:00 am

Merry X-Mas Gib!

Image
"I'm sorry, but the lifestyle you've ordered that you've grown accustomed to is completely out of stock. Have a nice day! "-$$$

Image
User avatar
Zero_Sum
Evil Neo-Nazi Extraordinaire.
 
Posts: 2876
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:05 pm
Location: U.S.S.A- Newly lead Bolshevik Soviet block. Also known as Weimar America.

Re: 2 months--no drugs or alcohol

Postby Fixed Cross » Mon Dec 09, 2019 2:03 am

Gib - as I read Pezers posts, I realize Im talking about another type of addiction, I have never been in scenes of amphetamines.

My posts can serve as some abstract context, not as concrete advice. Okay.
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
- Thucydides
Image
BTL
User avatar
Fixed Cross
Doric Usurper
 
Posts: 9592
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:53 am
Location: the black ships

Re: 2 months--no drugs or alcohol

Postby Fixed Cross » Mon Dec 09, 2019 2:07 am

I can mostly congratulate you on your accomplishment. 1.5 years is a lot longer than you set out for.
Keep it up, Id say. You know cellular structure is only replaced after 7 years. That does include braincells too, or information to that extent was published a few years ago.
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
- Thucydides
Image
BTL
User avatar
Fixed Cross
Doric Usurper
 
Posts: 9592
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:53 am
Location: the black ships

Re: 2 months--no drugs or alcohol

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Mon Dec 09, 2019 2:52 am

What's the difference between my 5 consecutive short and medium posts, and you guys's interminable single posts that take up half a page?

Anyway. I have said my peiece. I am somewhat glad at the warm reception, I must be improving somehow.

Also, I never said I didn't care. You said that. Remember?

But I care as a fellow addict, not as someone with any particular personal attachment to you. So maybe that's what you meant.

And,

There are no ex-addicts. Like there are no ex-diabetics. What it is.

"I'm an ex schitzophrenic."

No.
User avatar
Pedro I Rengel
Philosopher
 
Posts: 4105
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:55 pm

Re: 2 months--no drugs or alcohol

Postby Fixed Cross » Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:38 am

Pedro I Rengel wrote:What's the difference between my 5 consecutive short and medium posts, and you guys's interminable single posts that take up half a page?

Gib didn't seem to value mine much, where as I was writing I had the impression it would be otherwise. Annoying but educational. Addiction isn't philosophic. Just some drugs offer some philosophic ground.

Anyway. I have said my peiece. I am somewhat glad at the warm reception, I must be improving somehow.

Also, I never said I didn't care. You said that. Remember?

But I care as a fellow addict, not as someone with any particular personal attachment to you. So maybe that's what you meant.

And,

There are no ex-addicts. Like there are no ex-diabetics. What it is.

Except the diabetic doesn't have the power to not act on it.
Unless you want to equate an insulin regime with the will to stay clean in contradiction of ones natural inclinations.

"I'm an ex schitzophrenic."

No.

No, that too is written in the stars.
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
- Thucydides
Image
BTL
User avatar
Fixed Cross
Doric Usurper
 
Posts: 9592
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:53 am
Location: the black ships

Re: 2 months--no drugs or alcohol

Postby Fixed Cross » Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:45 am

Addiction is self-valuing in terms of self-expansion.

Nothing can replace any drug except a stronger drug, in all other cases, the self-valuing is constrained and needs to value its being-constrained in terms of itself - it must say "I am an addict" to no longer be an addict in action. Like "I am a hothead" doesn't mean you absolutely need to knock the crap out of someone every now and then, you just realize oh wait Im rather hot-headed, lets have a glass of iced tea and play some races.
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
- Thucydides
Image
BTL
User avatar
Fixed Cross
Doric Usurper
 
Posts: 9592
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:53 am
Location: the black ships

Re: 2 months--no drugs or alcohol

Postby Fixed Cross » Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:47 am

Discipline replaces the drug.

But one must get joy out of discipline - one must have some tyrannical tendencies toward oneself.
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
- Thucydides
Image
BTL
User avatar
Fixed Cross
Doric Usurper
 
Posts: 9592
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:53 am
Location: the black ships

Re: 2 months--no drugs or alcohol

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Mon Dec 09, 2019 5:16 am

Yeah, that's a pretty fair appraisal.

"Except the diabetic doesn't have the power to not act on it."

Except neither does the addict, really. This is why only an addict can be trusted to treat addicts. Only an addict understands this. Anybody else, no matter how well meaning, will always in the end consider it a thing about will power.

If an addict had a choice, they would choose drugs lol. The will power is fine. That's not the problem.

It's decidedly not about choosing not to. In asense, rehab is very Nietzschean. Freedom not to means shit. The Dwarf laughs at that. "Why not?" he knowingly whispers. Freedom to is what rehab gives.
User avatar
Pedro I Rengel
Philosopher
 
Posts: 4105
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:55 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Non-Philosophical Chat



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users