Shakespeare digression

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Re: Shakespeare digression

Postby Hobbes Choice » Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:34 pm

jabs wrote:
Hobbes Choice wrote:You are just being deliberately argumentative and trying to press buttons. I've no idea why you are doing this.
But it's you that seems desperate.

I am not desperate, everyone knows that these forums have a very basic security mechanism, anyone who truly wishes to come back, will do so, no problem at all.


There are the problems that I have hitherto mentioned.
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Re: Shakespeare digression

Postby Hobbes Choice » Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:41 pm

Stuartp523 wrote:Ok, ok Hobbes, the jokes over. I certainly can't complain that he's banned, I mean if not him then who, when, where? But, I also liked arguing with him. I hope he sneeks back in, in fact all this supposed vilifying is to make him mad enough to come back, or just mad in general. But, it's all in good fun, I laugh as I make these posts, thinking he might be reading them and yet he can't respond and it will be a cold day in Hell before I ever visit his forum, so it's as if it doesn't even exist to me. Also, there's an inside joke; he thinks I'm too apathetic because of one comment I made and wouldn't let up, so I like to pretend I'm obsessed.

(Oh and my penny collection consists of American pennies from each year from 1900 to 1999, my rule is that I can't order them online or call pawn and collectable shops to ask if they have them, I have to go in person, because the search is half the fun (the other half I guess is an unknown).


Okay no problems then.

I still don't know why you mentioned the penny.

Here'a a question for you, why on earth to American's call cents pennies?
I get why 25c is called two bits, Arrrrghh!

I collect coins myself, but can't think of anything more boring than collecting currency as such.
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Re: Shakespeare digression

Postby Stuart » Tue Apr 23, 2013 8:53 pm

I still don't know why you mentioned the penny.


When thinking of siatd's work my mind tends to wander..

Here'a a question for you, why on earth to American's call cents pennies?
I get why 25c is called two bits, Arrrrghh!


I tried looking up the answer, but there's some ambiguity on the subject. In American currency a cent is the smallest unit which a penny happens to be worth. It makes sense that it would have a different name, and it's better than calling it a 'one cent peice'. Even paper money has a name, there's a difference between giving someone 20 dollars, such as through a check and giving someone a 20 dollar bill.

I collect coins myself, but can't think of anything more boring than collecting currency as such.


It came from a habit of mine of staring at the ground while walking..... shit it happened again, I was trying to think of one intelligible thing siatd said and I ended up going on and on about money and such.
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Re: Shakespeare digression

Postby Kriswest » Tue Apr 23, 2013 9:56 pm

Ben Franklin designed the first penny for the USA and named it after the British penny. Thus the US penny.
I will be bitchy, cranky, sweet, happy, kind, pain in the ass all at random times from now on. I am embracing my mentalpause until further notice. Viva lack of total control!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is not a test,,, this is my life right now. Have a good day and please buckle up for safety reasons,, All those in high chairs, go in the back of the room.
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Re: Shakespeare digression

Postby jabs » Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:02 pm

Kriswest wrote:Ben Franklin designed the first penny for the USA and named it after the British penny. Thus the US penny.

I thought that you used cents
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Re: Shakespeare digression

Postby Kriswest » Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:04 pm

:) Only when I have too
I will be bitchy, cranky, sweet, happy, kind, pain in the ass all at random times from now on. I am embracing my mentalpause until further notice. Viva lack of total control!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is not a test,,, this is my life right now. Have a good day and please buckle up for safety reasons,, All those in high chairs, go in the back of the room.
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Re: Shakespeare digression

Postby Helandhighwater » Wed May 15, 2013 12:21 am

Kriswest wrote::) Only when I have too


You should use cents, after all the British were incorrigible asses back in the 18th century, you should differentiate your money. Just as you decided that taxation without representation was idiotic and idiotic decrees of ever increasing taxes to try and gain money for our concerns were unfair. You were right and we were wrong, I say we, if I was English I would joined the patriots, just like all the English and x patriots in America did, after all back then they were just Europeans with a decent philosophical argument. Pity about the slavery thing, but then we started that too. :)

On topic I don't think there is enough evidence to decide who wrote Shakespeare unless you come down on the side of Shakespeare, after all some modern authors like P.K Dick wrote dozens of books in such a short time that you wonder how he had the time. Some people are just creative live with it, and don't feel jealous that you cannot write one piece of prose in your life where as some people can write thousands, some people are just clever like that, if your uncreative mind cannot explain how you can, you should probably not take it as a personal slight, you're probably better at some things than either Shakespeare or P.K Dick were. Although as far as paranoid fantasy goes, well P.K Dicks books were only about that, from to Total Recall (We Can Remember it For You Wholesale), to Do Androids Dream of Electric sheep (Blade Runner) to Screamers (Second Variety) to Minority Report (The Minority Report) well just about anything he wrote, possible the most paranoid man alive, but he did use it creatively you have to give him that. :)

Paranoia harnessed is creative, left unchecked is destructive. :)
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Re: Shakespeare digression

Postby Kriswest » Wed May 15, 2013 12:37 am

My opinion on most art is: The work is more important than the creator of it. The work lives as the creator dies. The work affects generations, the creator becomes dust. Why care who wrote it? It is the work that is important and it is the work that affects humanity.
Slavery has been around since the beginning. Heck even a breed of ants keep slaves. Subjugation is natural on this planet.
I will be bitchy, cranky, sweet, happy, kind, pain in the ass all at random times from now on. I am embracing my mentalpause until further notice. Viva lack of total control!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is not a test,,, this is my life right now. Have a good day and please buckle up for safety reasons,, All those in high chairs, go in the back of the room.
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Re: Shakespeare digression

Postby Helandhighwater » Wed May 15, 2013 12:41 am

Kriswest wrote:My opinion on most art is: The work is more important than the creator of it. The work lives as the creator dies. The work affects generations, the creator becomes dust. Why care who wrote it? It is the work that is important and it is the work that affects humanity.
Slavery has been around since the beginning. Heck even a breed of ants keep slaves. Subjugation is natural on this planet.


True but not condoned so much as it once was. And I agree we should not be so fussed with who wrote it, although in Shakespeare's case it's pretty obvious he did, given both his life experiences his thirst for knowledge and his subservience to monarchs of the time he just seems to have. Did he have help probably who lives on a island, did he plagiarise well that goes with the territory when some of it is either history or myth. Did he write it of course he bloody did, authors in the modern day have surpassed him for sheer fecundity and diversity of texts several times over and no one disputes that 'cause we know they did first hand, but given enough time and so little evidence we start to talk shit. :)
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Re: Shakespeare digression

Postby Kriswest » Wed May 15, 2013 1:14 am

Some day L. Ron Hubbard will be a god :)
Ever read his books?
I will be bitchy, cranky, sweet, happy, kind, pain in the ass all at random times from now on. I am embracing my mentalpause until further notice. Viva lack of total control!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is not a test,,, this is my life right now. Have a good day and please buckle up for safety reasons,, All those in high chairs, go in the back of the room.
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Re: Shakespeare digression

Postby Helandhighwater » Wed May 15, 2013 2:01 am

Kriswest wrote:Some day L. Ron Hubbard will be a god :)
Ever read his books?


No not like I wouldn't after all as a science fiction writer he was well appreciated, as far as religion goes, well I think I wouldn't want to read them books. :)
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Re: Shakespeare digression

Postby Kriswest » Wed May 15, 2013 3:00 am

Ahh but his sense of drugged out humor started a " religion". The followers have no clue. Now that is art.
I will be bitchy, cranky, sweet, happy, kind, pain in the ass all at random times from now on. I am embracing my mentalpause until further notice. Viva lack of total control!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is not a test,,, this is my life right now. Have a good day and please buckle up for safety reasons,, All those in high chairs, go in the back of the room.
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Re: Shakespeare digression

Postby Helandhighwater » Wed May 15, 2013 3:09 am

Lol ok but Elrond Hubbard really Scientology? It's a religion that is never going to be, it just isn't a religion and perhaps it deserves to be, perhaps those Thetans blown up by nuclear weapons in a volcano are real. but trying that on in modern times, I don't think we are as clueless as we were when the first religions started, and now I am going to get into trouble with the Jews and the Christians. So be it. ;)

Nothing personally against an imaginative guy, but Scientology is for chumps. :)

You are definitely right though, art, ok demonstrating how art can do some funny things to dumb people. But it is art. Worrying art. But art. :)

It only goes to show that we are quite easily lead as people, and ever have been and society has thrived on it, and so has religion, nothing wrong with that but it is the 21st century, we should now know what idiocy we are now programmed to do, maybe? And perhaps resist it? Who knows we may do it, stranger things have happened. :)



Someone who can play on this easy to manipulate human condition. Not magic, not anything new, just very good at playing on our human weaknesses, we are easily manipulated and just so easy to predict. People have been doing this for thousands of years. Ok none were quite so talented, or were they, but if you believe in magic... Watch an artist who can play you like a harp string at work, watch a person who can literally read everything you say, every move you make, because we have become nothing if not predictable. And it's not camera tricks he does not edit it if he gets it wrong, he can do this to you, because of how easy we as a race are now to lead. It's clever stuff because he uses very simple tricks into leading people into saying what they don't want to consciously say, touch, misdirection, simple phrases that will reveal your thoughts use them again touch misdirect move your hand, your features will then give away if his guess was right. Clever stuff, but no more magic than magic is. :)

I don't get this I think he should be burned as a witch but then he asks the guy what he wants to really do he drops his shoulder and leans in and then advances his other arm, I picked up on that it looked like a golf swing, I think he knew almost straight away. But damned if I could so easily pick that up usually, I saw it for once. Lifetime of just making people give away things, it's a kind of magic but not magic, psychology.
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Re: Shakespeare digression

Postby jabs » Wed May 15, 2013 6:22 am

Helandhighwater wrote:Lol ok but Elrond Hubbard really Scientology? It's a religion that is never going to be, it just isn't a religion and perhaps it deserves to be, perhaps those Thetans blown up by nuclear weapons in a volcano are real. but trying that on in modern times, I don't think we are as clueless as we were when the first religions started, and now I am going to get into trouble with the Jews and the Christians. So be it. ;)

Nothing personally against an imaginative guy, but Scientology is for chumps. :)

You are definitely right though, art, ok demonstrating how art can do some funny things to dumb people. But it is art. Worrying art. But art. :)

It only goes to show that we are quite easily lead as people, and ever have been and society has thrived on it, and so has religion, nothing wrong with that but it is the 21st century, we should now know what idiocy we are now programmed to do, maybe? And perhaps resist it? Who knows we may do it, stranger things have happened. :)



Someone who can play on this easy to manipulate human condition. Not magic, not anything new, just very good at playing on our human weaknesses, we are easily manipulated and just so easy to predict. People have been doing this for thousands of years. Ok none were quite so talented, or were they, but if you believe in magic... Watch an artist who can play you like a harp string at work, watch a person who can literally read everything you say, every move you make, because we have become nothing if not predictable. And it's not camera tricks he does not edit it if he gets it wrong, he can do this to you, because of how easy we as a race are now to lead. It's clever stuff because he uses very simple tricks into leading people into saying what they don't want to consciously say, touch, misdirection, simple phrases that will reveal your thoughts use them again touch misdirect move your hand, your features will then give away if his guess was right. Clever stuff, but no more magic than magic is. :)

I don't get this I think he should be burned as a witch but then he asks the guy what he wants to really do he drops his shoulder and leans in and then advances his other arm, I picked up on that it looked like a golf swing, I think he knew almost straight away. But damned if I could so easily pick that up usually, I saw it for once. Lifetime of just making people give away things, it's a kind of magic but not magic, psychology.

This is a clear case of telepathy
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Re: Shakespeare digression

Postby Kriswest » Wed May 15, 2013 6:07 pm

We tend to forget that following and believing is survival instinct for species propagation. We just use more imagination than brute strength. Manipulation of words is domination and art. If a painting triggers emotions that too is domination, leader /follower. Who is less important than how.
Hubbard did Scientology based on his series, Mission Earth. Damn good read especially if you keep in mind the mindset of the author. Humans are insane.
I will be bitchy, cranky, sweet, happy, kind, pain in the ass all at random times from now on. I am embracing my mentalpause until further notice. Viva lack of total control!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is not a test,,, this is my life right now. Have a good day and please buckle up for safety reasons,, All those in high chairs, go in the back of the room.
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Re: Shakespeare digression

Postby jabs » Wed May 15, 2013 9:35 pm

Kriswest wrote:....Humans are insane.

Well I for one lost my marbles long time ago.
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Re: Shakespeare digression

Postby Kriswest » Wed May 15, 2013 9:42 pm

I think in ways we all have. Think about it. what is sane on this world?
I will be bitchy, cranky, sweet, happy, kind, pain in the ass all at random times from now on. I am embracing my mentalpause until further notice. Viva lack of total control!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is not a test,,, this is my life right now. Have a good day and please buckle up for safety reasons,, All those in high chairs, go in the back of the room.
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Re: Shakespeare digression

Postby Helandhighwater » Thu May 16, 2013 11:41 pm

jabs wrote:
Helandhighwater wrote:Lol ok but Elrond Hubbard really Scientology? It's a religion that is never going to be, it just isn't a religion and perhaps it deserves to be, perhaps those Thetans blown up by nuclear weapons in a volcano are real. but trying that on in modern times, I don't think we are as clueless as we were when the first religions started, and now I am going to get into trouble with the Jews and the Christians. So be it. ;)

Nothing personally against an imaginative guy, but Scientology is for chumps. :)

You are definitely right though, art, ok demonstrating how art can do some funny things to dumb people. But it is art. Worrying art. But art. :)

It only goes to show that we are quite easily lead as people, and ever have been and society has thrived on it, and so has religion, nothing wrong with that but it is the 21st century, we should now know what idiocy we are now programmed to do, maybe? And perhaps resist it? Who knows we may do it, stranger things have happened. :)



Someone who can play on this easy to manipulate human condition. Not magic, not anything new, just very good at playing on our human weaknesses, we are easily manipulated and just so easy to predict. People have been doing this for thousands of years. Ok none were quite so talented, or were they, but if you believe in magic... Watch an artist who can play you like a harp string at work, watch a person who can literally read everything you say, every move you make, because we have become nothing if not predictable. And it's not camera tricks he does not edit it if he gets it wrong, he can do this to you, because of how easy we as a race are now to lead. It's clever stuff because he uses very simple tricks into leading people into saying what they don't want to consciously say, touch, misdirection, simple phrases that will reveal your thoughts use them again touch misdirect move your hand, your features will then give away if his guess was right. Clever stuff, but no more magic than magic is. :)

I don't get this I think he should be burned as a witch but then he asks the guy what he wants to really do he drops his shoulder and leans in and then advances his other arm, I picked up on that it looked like a golf swing, I think he knew almost straight away. But damned if I could so easily pick that up usually, I saw it for once. Lifetime of just making people give away things, it's a kind of magic but not magic, psychology.

This is a clear case of telepathy


From someone who admits all he uses is common or garden tricks and means to confuse and lead people? I think not, and he does go out of his way to explain how he does it when people ask, and then it just becomes mundane. It's rather like watching Secrets of the Magicians Circle or whatever that crap is called, once he explains it, you just go oh yeah, that's damned clever but it's not magic or psychic. :)

Give Derren Brown a double blind scientific test where he cannot see or read people, and he will fail, as he himself admits, you put him in front of people he can read and manipulate and he will play you like a fiddle.

I must admit when he explains it it is fascinating, and you can try it yourself, simply certain phrasing, body actions, and misdirection really will make the likelihood of people doing and saying things much more likely. It's an art, but it's certainly not tele anything. It's simply a skill anyone can learn given enough practice, although undoubtedly he is a master.

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Re: Shakespeare digression

Postby Kriswest » Fri May 17, 2013 12:12 am

We all do that to certain extents. We can read the people we know. Telltale signs we all give off. That someone can do it like he
can is not surprising. Think Gypsies. Masters of reading.
I will be bitchy, cranky, sweet, happy, kind, pain in the ass all at random times from now on. I am embracing my mentalpause until further notice. Viva lack of total control!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is not a test,,, this is my life right now. Have a good day and please buckle up for safety reasons,, All those in high chairs, go in the back of the room.
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Re: Shakespeare digression

Postby Hobbes Choice » Fri May 17, 2013 11:19 am

Sauwelios wrote:
Maia wrote:It's a rhyme that was written by Shakespeare, in his native North Warwickshire dialect.


Not necessarily. It may have been written by someone else—a native of North Warwickshire or not—who made a witch character in his play speak in the North Warwickshire dialect...


Your objection is irrelevant and holds no weight.
There is nothing to support a view that anyone but he who is attributed with the rhyme. The fact that is in WS's dialect simply makes it more unlikely to have been any of the long list of people claimed to have been the "real writers".
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Re: Shakespeare digression

Postby jabs » Fri May 17, 2013 11:56 am

Hobbes Choice wrote:Your objection is irrelevant and holds no weight.
There is nothing to support a view that anyone but he who is attributed with the rhyme. The fact that is in WS's dialect simply makes it more unlikely to have been any of the long list of people claimed to have been the "real writers".

My understanding is that he copied Cervantes. Just before he died he was working on a Cervantes play.
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Re: Shakespeare digression

Postby Hobbes Choice » Fri May 17, 2013 12:55 pm

jabs wrote:
Hobbes Choice wrote:Your objection is irrelevant and holds no weight.
There is nothing to support a view that anyone but he who is attributed with the rhyme. The fact that is in WS's dialect simply makes it more unlikely to have been any of the long list of people claimed to have been the "real writers".

My understanding is that he copied Cervantes. Just before he died he was working on a Cervantes play.


I don't know where you get your crazy ideas from.

Problem: Cervantes did not speak English.
Shakespeare did not speak Spanish.

Were there any translations available to Shakespeare?
I can tell you that the first translation of Cervantes was not available to Shakespeare until after he died.
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Re: Shakespeare digression

Postby jabs » Fri May 17, 2013 1:12 pm

Hobbes Choice wrote:
jabs wrote:
Hobbes Choice wrote:Your objection is irrelevant and holds no weight.
There is nothing to support a view that anyone but he who is attributed with the rhyme. The fact that is in WS's dialect simply makes it more unlikely to have been any of the long list of people claimed to have been the "real writers".

My understanding is that he copied Cervantes. Just before he died he was working on a Cervantes play.


I don't know where you get your crazy ideas from.

Problem: Cervantes did not speak English.
Shakespeare did not speak Spanish.

Were there any translations available to Shakespeare?
I can tell you that the first translation of Cervantes was not available to Shakespeare until after he died.

Dear Hobbes,

I can assure you that, do I love winding you up! as soon as I realised the opportunity I fell to the temptation :D
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Re: Shakespeare digression

Postby Hobbes Choice » Fri May 17, 2013 4:30 pm

jabs wrote:
Hobbes Choice wrote:
jabs wrote:My understanding is that he copied Cervantes. Just before he died he was working on a Cervantes play.


I don't know where you get your crazy ideas from.

Problem: Cervantes did not speak English.
Shakespeare did not speak Spanish.

Were there any translations available to Shakespeare?
I can tell you that the first translation of Cervantes was not available to Shakespeare until after he died.

Dear Hobbes,

I can assure you that, do I love winding you up! as soon as I realised the opportunity I fell to the temptation :D


I'm not wound up. You just make yourself look stupid. Why should that bother me?
You should know that flaming is not allowed on this Forum- I'd hate to see you banned.
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Re: Shakespeare digression

Postby jabs » Fri May 17, 2013 6:57 pm

Hobbes Choice wrote:I'm not wound up. You just make yourself look stupid. Why should that bother me?
You should know that flaming is not allowed on this Forum- I'd hate to see you banned.

Good. :) Actually on a serious note I did read once that just before his death Shakespeare was working on Cervantes play. I do not have the reference to such story so as to back up what I have just said. Whether Shakespeare could speak Spanish, or Cervantes English is neither here or there, communications in those days were sufficiently good so that they could have read each other's work.
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