a thread for mundane ironists

This is the place to shave off that long white beard and stop being philosophical; a forum for members to just talk like normal human beings.

Re: a thread for mundane ironists

Postby iambiguous » Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:22 pm

Robert Fripp

Usually people think that it is the musicians who create the music, but in fact it is music who creates the musicians.


He nearly doubted that.

Quiet is the absence of sound. Silence is the presence of silence.

I think I hear it now.

What has changed in 40 years? It’s very simple: 40 years ago there was a market economy. Today there is a market society – today everything, including ethics, has a price.

Let's call this nihilism.

Expectation closes the door to what is happening in the moment.

If not now.

The way we describe our world shows how we think of our world. How we think of our world governs how we interpret our world. How we interpret our world directs how we participate in the world. How we participate in the world shapes the world.

My guess: for the better and for the worse.

If the audience doesn't hear what is going on, is it going on?

For example: https://youtu.be/hzFsDQeTUT4
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: a thread for mundane ironists

Postby iambiguous » Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:06 pm

Philosophy Tweets

"Love, friendship and respect do not unite people as much as a common hatred for something." Anton Checkov


Yes, a simple truth.

"Few people at the beginning of the nineteenth century needed an adman to tell them what they wanted." John Kenneth Galbraith

Yes, a simple truth.

“Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not; a sense of humor to console him for what he is.” Francis Bacon

When you think about it, yeah.

“At the end of the day, we can endure much more than we think we can.” Frida Kahlo

Well, let's just say some days.

"Progressive art can assist people to learn not only about the objective forces at work in the society in which they live, but also about the intensely social character of their interior lives. Ultimately, it can propel people toward social emancipation." Salvador Dali

Well, let's just say some people.

“Hope is a good breakfast, but it is a bad supper.” Francis Bacon

So, you've got about 10 to 12 hours.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: a thread for mundane ironists

Postby iambiguous » Fri Jun 12, 2020 9:52 pm

Malcolm Mclaren

I never intended for the Sex Pistols to be immeasurably successful.


Immeasurably, however, what ever is?
Or, for that matter, isn't?


Try managing a junkie - especially if you've never been one yourself.

So, any junkies here need managing?

The Pistols were like my work of art. They were my canvas.

Did they know that?

Rock and roll doesn't necessarily mean a band. It doesn't mean a singer, and it doesn't mean a lyric, really. It's that question of trying to be immortal.

Or, sure, stick with religion.

I've always thought that gaming and YouTube and the web is a very post-punk extravaganza.

Well, good for him!

Don't kill the golden goose.

Not that we have one here.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: a thread for mundane ironists

Postby iambiguous » Sat Jun 13, 2020 6:49 pm

Philip Glass

I don't know what I'm doing and it's the not knowing that makes it interesting.


That's bullshit, I suspect.

You practice and you get better. It's very simple.

Well, not counting what we do here perhaps.

A new language requires a new technique. If what you're saying doesn't require a new language, then what you're saying probably isn't new.

Under the sun, for example.

You get up early in the morning and you work all day. That’s the only secret.

For what he does more so than what, say, you do?

What I've noticed is that people who love what they do, regardless of what that might be, tend to live longer.

Okay, but then death becomes that much more unbearable, doesn't it?

There's almost no content in terms of language at all. I don't like using language to convey meaning. I'd rather use images and music.

I get that, sure, but does he?
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: a thread for mundane ironists

Postby iambiguous » Sat Jun 13, 2020 8:22 pm

Philosophy Tweets

“They are so damn ‘intellectual’ and rotten that I can’t stand them anymore…I would rather sit on the floor in the market of Toluca and sell tortillas, than have anything to do with those ‘artistic’ bitches of Paris.” Frida Kahlo


Gosh, he thought, this sounds like something I might say here.

“The more sand that has escaped from the hourglass of our life, the clearer we should see through it.” Jean-Paul Sartre

Well, if it wasn't then clouded all the more by oblivion.

"Life begins on the other side of despair." Jean-Paul Sartre

If there actually is one.

"After your death you will be what you were before your birth." Arthur Schopenhauer

Comforted?

"Fascism is a lie told by bullies.” Ernest Hemingway

Trump!!!

“Before you react, think. Before you spend, earn. Before you criticize, wait. Before you quit, try.” Ernest Hemingway

How's that working out for you?
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: a thread for mundane ironists

Postby iambiguous » Sat Jun 13, 2020 9:37 pm

Terry Eagleton

It is difficult to think of an origin without wanting to go back beyond it.


Starting with, say, our own?

From the viewpoint of political power, culture is absolutely vital. So vital, indeed, that power cannot operate without it. It is culture, in the sense of the everyday habits and beliefs of a people, which beds power down, makes it appear natural and inevitable, turns it into spontaneous reflex and response.

See, I told you!

Understanding is always in some sense retrospective, which is what Hegel meant by remarking that the owl of Minerva flies only at night.

Explain this please.

Successful revolutions are those which end up by erasing all traces of themselves.

Which may or may not explain why we have or have not ever had one.

Capitalism is the sorcerer's apprentice: it has summoned up powers which have spun wildly out of control and now threaten to destroy us. The task of socialism is not to spur on those powers but to bring them under rational human control.

You know, after Trump.

For the most part football these days is the opium of the people, not to speak of their crack cocaine. Its icon is the impeccably Tory, slavishly conformist Beckham. The Reds are no longer the Bolsheviks. Nobody serious about political change can shirk the fact that the game has to be abolished.

And that's before -- way before -- you get to our football.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: a thread for mundane ironists

Postby iambiguous » Sun Jun 14, 2020 6:52 pm

A. S. Byatt

I don't like gurus. I don't like people who ask you to follow or believe.


In other words, here, the objectivists.

I don't think it is an easy thing to write and expect to be commercial, even if you are from Venus and a hermaphrodite.

Not many of those however.

Everything is surprising, rightly seen.

If, from time to time, that's even possible.

Books that change you, even later in life, give you a kind of electrical shock as the world takes a different shape.

You tell me yours, I'll tell you mine.

…my solitude is my treasure, the best thing I have.

And then one day [for some] the only thing they have.

Outside our small safe place flies mystery.

Or: Inside our small safe place flies mystery.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: a thread for mundane ironists

Postby iambiguous » Sun Jun 14, 2020 7:37 pm

Philosophy Tweets

"The thermometer of success is merely the jealousy of the malcontents." Salvador Dali


You know, in some fields.

“Instead of chopping yourself down to fit the world, chop the world down to fit yourself." D.H. Lawrence

What could be simpler?!

“He who despises himself esteems himself as a self-despiser.” Friedrich Nietzsche

Human all too human?

“Very often, all of the activity of the human mind is directed not in revealing the truth, but in hiding the truth.” Leo Tolstoy

Human all too human?

“Human beings like to see themselves reflected in clouded mirrors.” Pär Lagerkvist

Then it's off to the funhouse.

"Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out." Anton Chekhov

Point taken.
On the other hand, not all crises are created equal.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: a thread for mundane ironists

Postby iambiguous » Sun Jun 14, 2020 9:32 pm

Karl Kraus

Stupidity is an elemental force for which no earthquake is a match.


Then they just stare each other down.

The immorality of men triumphs over the amorality of women.

Come on, would you really go that far?

The triumph of morality: A thief who has broken into a bedroom claims his sense of shame had been outraged, and by threatening the occupants with exposure of an immoral act he blackmails them into not bringing charges for burglary.

Help me out here.

The discovery of the North Pole is one of those realities which could not be avoided. It is the wages which human perseverance pays itself when it thinks that something is taking too long. The world needed a discoverer of the North Pole, and in all areas of social activity, merit was less important here than opportunity.

Help me out here.

Religion, morality, and patriotism are feelings that are manifested only when they are outraged.

If only all the time.

There are writers who can express in as little as twenty pages what I occasionally need as many as two for.

The lesson learned?
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: a thread for mundane ironists

Postby iambiguous » Mon Jun 15, 2020 5:34 pm

Jennifer Jason Leigh

For me, something dangerous would be playing the babe in a huge studio film. That would be terrifying because I'd stink... I want to explore human beings on as deep a level as I can.


Doesn't surprise me.

It usually takes about two and a half weeks after you're done filming where you kind of return to yourself again.

Or, here, a couple of minutes.

I've never done anything that I felt was crossing the line for me. But everybody has to make that decision individually. Like, I've never shot heroin to play a heroin addict. I've never turned a trick to play a prostitute. Whatever. You draw the line where you feel it could be harmful.

What else: dasein.

I think Robert Altman could see things in me that I didn't know I possessed, which is really exciting. He also instilled a tremendous amount of confidence, because he would say things like, "These are the bare bones, but I want you to go fill it out. You find the character. You bring it to me. You write whatever you want." And if you had an idea, he wouldn't want to hear about it. He's want you to show it to him.

Hey, we need someone like that here, he thought.

I love being in therapy. It's just constantly fulfilling for me.

Nope, no way. But good for her.

I don't really watch my moves all that often; I mean, really, I don't.

Good to know?
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: a thread for mundane ironists

Postby iambiguous » Mon Jun 15, 2020 7:24 pm

Werner Twertzog

American squeeze condiments remind me of defecation.


Let's move on...

In November, Trump will win in a Reaganesque landslide, as we all know, because young people, many of them very strident in their views at the dinner table, are not registered, and will not even bother to vote. Sorry, after that, you will have to own American fascism.

Stay tuned.
If you dare.


Sometimes blocking sanctimonious twits is what makes me happy.

So, which ones would you block here?

Dear America: How is that divide-and-rule white supremacist oligarchy thing working out for y’all?

Among other things, like a charm.

Still missing
Robin Williams
And David Bowie
Also Leonard Cohen


Of course that's more or less obligatory.

No, cashier, I did not "find everything I am looking for." But you did not mean it as an existential question. I absolve you.

Now imagine the cashier's reaction.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: a thread for mundane ironists

Postby iambiguous » Mon Jun 15, 2020 9:28 pm

Isadora Duncan

What I am interested in doing is finding and expressing a new form of life.


Link me to it.

Man must speak, then sing, then dance. The speaking is the brain, the thinking man. The singing is the emotion. The dancing is the Dionysian ecstasy which carries away all.

Not counting the Twist or the Jitterbug of course.

It has taken me years of struggle, hard work and research to learn to make one simple gesture, and I know enough about the art of writing to realize that it would take as many years of concentrated effort to write one simple, beautiful sentence.

Let's start with yours.

Any intelligent woman who reads the marriage contract, and then goes into it, deserves all the consequences.

Of course that was a century ago. Or doesn't it matter?

Memories are less tangible than dreams.

I know that mine are.

There are joys so complete, so all perfect, that one should not survive them.

Name just one.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: a thread for mundane ironists

Postby iambiguous » Tue Jun 16, 2020 5:56 pm

Nassim Nicholas Taleb

It takes extraordinary wisdom and self-control to accept that many things have a logic we do not understand that is smarter than our own.


My thing for example? :lol:

A prophet is not someone with special visions, just someone blind to most of what others see.

Wow, we got a few of them here.

Modernity has replaced ethics with legalese, and the law can be gamed with a good lawyer.

Wow, we got a few of them here.

Stoicism is about the domestication of emotions, not their elimination.

Figured that out yet?

The best philosophers were not academics, but had another job, so their philosophy was not corrupted by careerism.

Another job or retired.

Hard work will get you a professorship or a BMW. You need both work and luck for a Booker, a Nobel or a private jet.

Let's examine this in depth.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: a thread for mundane ironists

Postby iambiguous » Tue Jun 16, 2020 8:01 pm

Doth

I like my women like my wolves, wandering around the woods at night & could kill me at any moment.


Yo, Lyssa!

Everyday I don't live in an abandoned lighthouse with a terrifying backstory is a day lost.

Today, for example.

All I want is to live in a lighthouse with a horrifying backstory & to dismantle white supremacy.

Doesn't everyone?

Normalize getting lost in the woods & never being seen again.

No woods? Then the urban jungle.

It's a perfect night to have a glass of wine & tear down the establishment.

Either that or tomorrow night.

I have said this before but it bears repeating: give women swords.

Either that or the codes to the football.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: a thread for mundane ironists

Postby iambiguous » Tue Jun 16, 2020 9:53 pm

Iris Murdoch

Nothing is more maddening than being questioned by the object of one's interest about the object of hers, should that object not be you.


Uh, maybe?

The notion that one can liberate another soul from captivity is an illusion of the very young.

Just another reason why youth is wasted on them.

Human affairs are not serious, but they have to be taken seriously.

You know, in the context of all there is.

The notion that one will not survive a particular catastrophe is, in general terms, a comfort since it is equivalent to abolishing the catastrophe.

In general terms how fucking dumb is that?

Every persisting marriage is based on fear, said Peregrine. Fear is fundamental, you dig down in human nature and what's at the bottom? Mean spiteful cruel self-regarding fear, whether it makes you to put the foot in it or whether it makes you to cower.

How about every persisting relationship period.

It was like hunting fish with an underwater gun, a sport which he had once been foolish enough to try. At one moment there is the fish - graceful, mysterious, desirable and free - and the next moment there is nothing but struggling and blood and confusion.

Do the fish know this?
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: a thread for mundane ironists

Postby iambiguous » Wed Jun 17, 2020 5:00 pm

Robert Musil

... for the modern soul, for which it is mere child's play to bridge oceans and continents, there is nothing so impossible as to find the contact with the souls dwelling just around the corner.


Next up: the postmodern soul.

... we engage in politics because we don't know anything. This is clearly revealed in the way we go about it. Our parties exist from a fear of theory. The voter fears that one idea can always be contradicted by another. Therefore the parties reciprocally defend themselves against the few old ideas they have inherited. They don't live from what they promise, but from frustrating the promises of others.

You know, in a roundabout way.

'True' and 'false' are the evasions of people who never want to arrive at a decision.

Unless, of course, they mean it.

Life is to blame for everything.

If only so far.

Life forms a surface that acts as if it could not be otherwise, but under its skin things are pounding and pulsing.

So, don't be fooled. By yours, for example.

...there is a particular propensity in the world for people, wherever they appear in great numbers, to permit themselves collectively everything that would be forbidden them individually.

My guess: for better or worse.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: a thread for mundane ironists

Postby iambiguous » Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:47 pm

Robert Fripp

A mistake is always forgivable, rarely excusable and always unacceptable.


You know, if you ever actually make one.

There are no mistakes, save one: the failure to learn from a mistake.

You know, if you ever actually make one.

When music appears which only King Crimson can play, then, sooner or later, King Crimson appears to play the music.

On the other hand, how could that not be true?

Understanding is simple. Knowing is complicated.

Why do smart people still say things like this?

To me, art is the capacity to experience one's innocence: craft is how you get to that point. Maturity in a musician would be the point at which one is innocent at will. At that point the relationship between music and the musician is direct and reliable. The relationship with music is always mysterious: when it works, you can never tell. You can never guarantee when it's going to work. You can only to put yourself in a place where it's more likely to happen.

A classic example of trying to talk about music.

We know others to the extent that we know ourselves.

I know what you're thinking: What if that's actually true?
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: a thread for mundane ironists

Postby iambiguous » Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:59 pm

Philip Glass

The work I've done is the work I know, and the work I do is the work I don't know. I don't know what I'm doing.


On the other hand: https://www.wqxr.org/story/231895-top-1 ... ecordings/

If you don't have a basis on which to make the choice, then you don't have a style at all. You have a series of accidents.

Let's make that applicable here.

I'm interested in what happens to music when other people use it. Whereas there are composers who don't like anyone to touch their music, I think people should because they do things I can't think of.

Let's make that applicable here.

It doesn't need to be imagined, it needs to be written down.

And then posted of course.

What came to me as a revelation was the use of rhythm in developing an overall structure in music.

You know, depending on the context.

If you remember your lineage, you will never feel lonely.

On the other hand, I never feel lonely and I abandoned mine.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: a thread for mundane ironists

Postby iambiguous » Thu Jun 18, 2020 7:07 pm

God

America: where a black man can't take a knee on a football field for thirty seconds, but a white cop can take a knee on his neck for eight minutes.


A political prejudice?

I have lost control of the situation.

Up there or down here?

I should probably wrap this up.

Okay, by you?

Sarah Hegazi is here in heaven as My new Vice-President in Charge of Rainbows.
Fuck every last one of you who drove her here.


You decide: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Hegazi

I'm sick and tired of the media being biased against Donald Trump just because he's a fucking piece of shit.

Let's make sense of this.

I'm done with America and looking for a new country to bless.
Could it be yours?
Reply with your pitch.
Winning nation receives My eternal bounty forever and ever.
Second-place wins a set of steak knives.


ABC! https://youtu.be/wVQPY4LlbJ4
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: a thread for mundane ironists

Postby iambiguous » Thu Jun 18, 2020 9:35 pm

Terry Eagleton

Christian faith, as I understand it, is not primarily a matter of signing on for the proposition that there exists a Supreme Being, but the kind of commitment made manifest by a human being at the end of his tether, foundering in darkness, pain, and bewilderment, who nevertheless remains faithful to the promise of a transformative love.


Sure, why not.

When one emphasizes, as Jacques Derrida once remarked, one always overemphasizes.

Among others, that would be me, right?

Like all the best radical positions, then, mine is a thoroughly traditionalist one.

Let's explain this. To me for example.

Ivory towers are as rare as bowling alleys in tribal cultures.

No shopping malls either.

It is false to believe that the sun revolves around the earth, but it is not absurd.

That is true, isn't it?

The government spokesman announces that there is no truth in the charges of widespread corruption within the Cabinet; nobody believes him; he knows that nobody believes him, we know that he knows it, and he knows it too.

That is true, isn't it?
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: a thread for mundane ironists

Postby iambiguous » Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:57 pm

Delia Owens

I wasn't aware that words could hold so much. I didn't know a sentence could be so full.


Not unlike many here, he harrumphed.

His dad had told him many times that the definition of a real man is one who cries without shame, reads poetry with his heart, feels opera in his soul, and does what’s necessary to defend a woman.

Of course we know better. It's just plain unnatural.

Why should the injured, the still bleeding, bear the onus of forgiveness?

Survival of the fittest?

There are some who can live without wild things, and some who cannot.

Not counting those who can take them or leave them.

She knew the years of isolation had altered her behavior until she was different from others, but it wasn't her fault she'd been alone. Most of what she knew, she'd learned from the wild. Nature had nurtured, tutored, and protected her when no one else would.

Not many like that still around.

Time ensures children never know their parents young.

Let alone the parts before they were born.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: a thread for mundane ironists

Postby iambiguous » Fri Jun 19, 2020 8:26 pm

God

Yes, the Confederate flag is a symbol of slavery, racism and oppression, but it’s also a symbol of losers getting their ass kicked.


Yeah, there is that.
Next up: Vietnam


Try not to take yourself too seriously. After all, you're an idiot.

And, no, not just you Kid.

I apologize to some of you for the rest of you.

Let's decide: Is that good enough?

The last person to disband the police was Sting.

God being clever.

America: where minorities, for good reason, fear their kids getting shot, and white people, for no reason, fear their kids getting shots.

God being clever.

Never in human history have I gotten so many prayers from atheists.

Me? No way!
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: a thread for mundane ironists

Postby iambiguous » Fri Jun 19, 2020 9:56 pm

Karl Kraus

It is either a half-truth or a truth and a half.


Or, here, 1 truth or 0.999...truth.

Sexuality poorly repressed unsettles some families; well repressed, it unsettles the whole world.

Bingo: Wilhelm Reich

A snob is unreliable. The work he praises might just be good.

You know, hypothetically.

An idea's birth is legitimate if one has the feeling that one is catching oneself plagiarizing oneself.

Next up: An idea's death.

One of the most widespread diseases is diagnosis.

Or [here]: One of the most widespread hoaxes is diagnosis.

Art is something that is so perfectly clear that no one comprehends it.

Not to mention the other way around.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
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And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: a thread for mundane ironists

Postby iambiguous » Sat Jun 20, 2020 7:09 pm

Sean Penn

There's a lot of mediocrity being celebrated, and a lot of wonderful stuff being ignored or discouraged.


Gasp!

I think we all have light and dark inside us.

Gasp?

If you don’t vote, you don’t matter.

I did vote once.

When everything gets answered, it's fake.

What do you think, a context?

I think life's an irrational obsession.

Yeah, but only between the cradle and the grave.

What difference do you think you can make, one man in all this madness?

Do you dare tell us?
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: a thread for mundane ironists

Postby iambiguous » Sat Jun 20, 2020 9:37 pm

Isadora Duncan

The dancer of the future will be one whose body & soul have grown so harmoniously together that the natural language of the soul will have become the movement of the body.


Nope, not yet. Right?

The Dance of the Future will have to become again a high religious art as it was with the Greeks. For art which is not religious is not art, it is mere merchandise

Nope, not yet. Right?

If I could explain, I wouldn't need to dance!

So, what's our excuse?

One might say that the American trend of education is to reduce the senses almost to nil.

Of what need are senses to the wage slave?

I would rather live in Russia on black bread and vodka than in the United States at the best hotels. America knows nothing of food, love or art.

Of course she was born and raised in California.

What one has not experienced, one will never understand in print.

See, I told you.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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