Absolute Randomness

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Re: Absolute Randomness

Postby xzc » Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:34 am

Oh, and I recommend Susan Wolf's article Moral Saints to anyone who is interested in the topic of this conversation.
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Re: Absolute Randomness

Postby fuse » Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:40 am

Well, I'd like to see the textual support if it's convenient. I haven't read the entirety of the Groundwork, but I've certainly read most of it before.

xzc wrote:For Kant, being moral could not be done for the sake of something else, e.g., that it yielded a full life. That the supreme moral principle be done for it's own sake and the sake of nothing else is a crucial premise.

Okay, I get this and it sounds familiar. I preliminarily concede that you're right about the rich/full life being a part of it then. I agree with you when you said "So what if I'm irrational?" in response to the CI, as it shows despite what Kant thought would be a reasonable critique of his theory that his theory is unsatisfying to many people. However I stand by what I'm saying about the appropriateness of one moral theory being determined by how satisfying it is over another and not determined by whether it is in some sense "objectively" better than another theory or not. See, again, what you said here:

xzc wrote:You're not better off following his normative ethics than not.

You can back away from this statement if you want, but it sounds like an objective judgement. Why can't someone choose to follow Kant's ethics and be better off?

Yes, I think Kant was brilliant as well, it's not hard to see at least some brilliance in The Critique of Pure Reason.
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Re: Absolute Randomness

Postby xzc » Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:42 am

Pardon the mass posts, but I'm bored and want to talk about Kant. Unfortunately, or fortunately depending on how you look at it, there's no one around willing to do that.

I wish to emphasize something about this point.
Among the reasons Kant's categorical imperative fails is precisely because it's not a satisfying method of moral conduct.

Part of the frustration (and Genius of Kant) is the fact that his moral theory is unlike others in that he doesn't allow for moral intuitions to be used against his theory. You see, with normal moral theories, lets say Utilitarianism, you come up with a scenario in which it says something that conflicts with our moral intuitions, and that's it. For instance, you say a surgeon who has a healthy patient and five patients about to die if they don't get organ transplanted is obligated under the utilitarian principle to kill the healthy patient and use his organs to save the five. And then you say that doesn't feel right. Your moral intuitions are repulsed by this answer, and you used this fact to argue against utilitarianism.

Kant preempts this objection and says your moral intuitions do not have a basis. Morality, he argues, needs reasons. Your feelings are not enough. So you can't use non-rational reasons, moral feelings that sort of just arise when you are presented with a scenario, to argue against his theory. I fucking hate him, but he was a genius.
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Re: Absolute Randomness

Postby fuse » Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:49 am

Ah, you're totally right about the nature of Kant's theory. Sorry, I had forgotten those important details.

I agree with you then in not favoring his moral theory and, despite this, that he was nonetheless a genius.
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Re: Absolute Randomness

Postby xzc » Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:53 am

fuse wrote:Well, I'd like to see the textual support if it's convenient. I haven't read the entirety of the Groundwork, but I've certainly read most of it before.


Chapter 2...like a page in.

"I am willing to grant that most of our actions are in accord with duty; but if we look more closely at the devising and striving that lies behind them, then everywhere we run into the dear self which is always there; and it is this and not the strict command of duty (which would often require self-denial) that underlies our intentions."

Forget your natural human non-moral inclinations--which I think anyone will concede are necessary to a full and rich life. In fact, deny them. Your only concern in life is being moral.

You can back away from this statement if you want, but it sounds like an objective judgement. Why can't someone choose to follow Kant's ethics and be better off?

Take it as you wish, but what I'm getting at is what I think is the fact that a rich and full life ought to be concerned not just with being moral for its own sake, or with doing everything as a means to being moral. I mean, I will concede that Kant permits for personal happiness, but only because he thinks being happy may in some cases be necessary to being moral. In other words, you can't do your duty to others if you're not yourself happy. Your own person is not a point of major concern for Kant, unless you need to somehow take care of yourself in order so that you may make yourself physically and psychologically capable of being moral.
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Re: Absolute Randomness

Postby fuse » Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:55 am

Thanks, I appreciate the explanation. Also, see previous post.
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Re: Absolute Randomness

Postby xzc » Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:57 am

fuse wrote:Ah, you're totally right about the nature of Kant's theory. Sorry, I had forgotten those important details.

I agree with you then in not favoring his moral theory and, despite this, that he was nonetheless a genius.

Oh come on man. I even broke out my Kant book.
Still, arguing with you has forced me to better digest the material and come up with new ways of phrasing the point.
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Re: Absolute Randomness

Postby fuse » Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:59 am

Haha, sorry bud. I haven't opened a Kant text in over a year...and that was the CoPR.

xzc wrote:Still, arguing with you has forced me to better digest the material and come up with new ways of phrasing the point.

Cool.
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Re: Absolute Randomness

Postby Pandora » Sat Sep 24, 2011 8:01 pm

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Re: Absolute Randomness

Postby Rusty » Sat Sep 24, 2011 8:59 pm

Today is the first day in a long time.
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Re: Absolute Randomness

Postby DanielJMoore1991 » Sun Sep 25, 2011 6:27 am

Ah so your saying because mundane babble is random and no other thread is that this thread is the overall spectrum of thought revealed of the forum members and is much easier to identify in random dialogue. Probably true, but something in another thread could increase or decrease the spectrum but this thread probably gives the highest possibility to identify the mood because it is centralized. More efficient and definitely easier to observe (easier = more accuracy)... so ya I see what your saying.
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Re: Absolute Randomness

Postby MagsJ » Mon Sep 26, 2011 12:55 pm

I went to a school where they taught us everything known to man - Mags to Eugene via Facebook chat, when he asked if I could swim...
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get that time back, and I may need it for something at some point in time. Wait! What?

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Re: Absolute Randomness

Postby Mr. Kebop » Fri Oct 21, 2011 4:46 am

I was looking for this. Come back into the light. In other words: bump.
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Re: Absolute Randomness

Postby Mr. Kebop » Fri Oct 21, 2011 4:52 am

Now I remember. Ahahaha. This shit.


Bahahah


Why the fuck does he have a football...
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Re: Absolute Randomness

Postby xzc » Sat Oct 22, 2011 2:19 am

Can someone find Kierkegaard's Either/Or online for me? I've exhausted my resources and found nothing. I can't even buy an e-version of it.
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Re: Absolute Randomness

Postby tentative » Sat Oct 22, 2011 2:56 am

xzc wrote:Can someone find Kierkegaard's Either/Or online for me? I've exhausted my resources and found nothing. I can't even buy an e-version of it.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss? ... &x=13&y=17
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Re: Absolute Randomness

Postby PavlovianModel146 » Sat Oct 22, 2011 3:09 am

tentative wrote:
xzc wrote:Can someone find Kierkegaard's Either/Or online for me? I've exhausted my resources and found nothing. I can't even buy an e-version of it.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss? ... &x=13&y=17


I did the same thing, but I think he means that he wants the actual book to be on-line.
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Re: Absolute Randomness

Postby Blurry » Sat Oct 22, 2011 7:42 pm

*yawn*
"Nothing is original. Steal from anywhere that resonates with inspiration or fuels your imagination. Devour old films, new films, music, books, paintings, photographs, poems, dreams, random conversations, architecture, bridges, street signs, trees, clouds, bodies of water, light and shadows. Select only things to steal from that speak directly to your soul. If you do this, your work (and theft) will be authentic. Authenticity is invaluable; originality is non-existent. And don't bother concealing your thievery - celebrate it if you feel like it. In any case, always remember what Jean-Luc Godard said: 'It's not where you take things from - it's where you take them to.'" - Jim Jarmusch
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Re: Absolute Randomness

Postby Pandora » Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:02 am

Looks interesting...

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Re: Absolute Randomness

Postby barbarianhorde » Tue Oct 25, 2011 12:49 pm

There was a sound this morning before I woke up I did not hear it but I remember it now suddenly It was a rickety sound that was like the wind blowing against a flagpole but there is no flagpole and also no wind this morning so .. what it was I don't know it is quite mysterious to me, as I go make some coffe....

[a minute]

So now the coffee is brewing in the kitchen, I love the sound... yes it will be nice coffee I made it nice.... but what is Arabica? Does it mean it is from Arabia or is it a type of bean let me look it up.... "Coffea arabica is a species of Coffea originally indigenous to the mountains of Yemen in the Arabian Peninsula," Interesting so I am drinking Yemenite coffee, from Yemen where the women wear black burqas and high heels.

But the sound it is weird I still have it in my head it was like a flagpole... I already said that. I just made 10.000 with nice work I did for Volkswagen I can afford a new espresso machine I may buy it, maybe I buy something nice for my grilfriend who wants to go to Moscow, I may take her to Moscow but what was that sound....

It sounds like I am at the sea, and it is calm I can hear the seagull but I actually don't hear them, I hear a bird cry but it is not a seabird. Maybe I am dreaming.
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Re: Absolute Randomness

Postby Rusty » Thu Oct 27, 2011 4:36 am

There's a rock stuck in my ass, maybe I should walk the path instead. Am I disheveled? Maybe a bit eccentric, though the taste of silver is often copper so one can never tell with those measurements. I look to the sky and for a brief moment I feel peace. It was a strange kind of peace, the kind your body never wants to share with your mind; what a selfish bastard it is. Mushrooms feel this peace, but they smell funny and are infinitely unaware of how bad their jokes are so you cant trust those little fuckers, you know? Christ, what the hell is that? A swarm of jellyfish perhaps, or maybe those are clouds. Either way they're shaped like a giant pair of tits, well I guess i'm going with clouds then. I'm not sure where I'm headed, maybe I'll just put this rock back in my ass and sit down for a little while, then again I don't really like things up my ass so I believe I'll go for a walk. Yes, I'm definitely convinced those are clouds now. -FIN-
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Re: Absolute Randomness

Postby Mr. Kebop » Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:47 pm

Watched Blade Runner again today. Not like I've seen it a bunch of times...but anyway...

Does anyone else think that Harrison Ford's voice is just stupid as fuck in this movie? Like just annoying as shit. I'm getting into the movie and then all of a sudden this nasally, weird-ass voice start spouting off some retarded inner monologue. I thought I was watching Dexter.

Christ, the whole movie should have just been from the perspective of the real protagonist. Different movie, way cooler. Hahaha...I appreciate Blade Runner for what it is don't get me wrong. Just...Harrison Ford...god dammit.
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Re: Absolute Randomness

Postby anon » Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:52 pm

If your urine is red, don't panic. Maybe you ate lots of beets for dinner last night.
"Distraction is the only thing that consoles us for our miseries, and yet it is itself the greatest of our miseries." - Blaise Pascal

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Re: Absolute Randomness

Postby MagsJ » Thu Oct 27, 2011 9:45 pm

The after-math of the chimpanzee attack on the owner's friend... a good reason why undomesticated animals do not make for good pets - watching the documentary is horrific, let alone how she must have felt :-?
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get that time back, and I may need it for something at some point in time. Wait! What?

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Re: Absolute Randomness

Postby Rusty » Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:43 pm

Skyrim tomorrow.
Cya guys in about a month. :D
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